It's not that great couples don't fight.
It's that they just fight differently.
They actually fight in a way where the conflict is resolving something
that is alchemizing or merging two worlds into creating something separate.
And that's why I like a third perspective is always more brilliant
when created from two separate ones.
Listen, frictions are going to come up always and forever, hopefully.
But it's like we turn towards those and we allow those frictions to invite
deeper parts of ourselves that we maybe haven't yet met or touched or examined
in relationships so that they can have a seat at the table too.
It makes me think of the quote from Harville Hendricks and Helen Humm where they say that
you're born in relationship, you're wounded in relationship, and you heal in relationship.
So have you ever felt trapped in relationship that just wasn't serving you,
kind of like you were conforming to someone else's expectations of who you should be
instead of embracing who you actually are or maybe just wanting to be accepted so badly
that you'd give up a part of yourself to make it happen.
Most of us have been there at some point.
We adapt and contort ourselves to fit an ideal that was never meant for us in the first place.
But what if it didn't have to be that way?
What if being utterly you, loving freely and openly and seeing your relationship as
not only a place of deep connection but a place where safety and healing was the secret
to finding true connection, not hiding but actually being completely openly you.
My guests today, Mark Rose and Kale McBeth believe it is.
In their new book, Liberated Love, released co-dependent patterns and create the love you desire.
As a human connection specialist and founder of Create the Love,
Mark has guided countless people in improving their most important relationships and Kiley,
host of the Journey Home Podcasts, Shares of Wisdom,
on spirituality and self-empowerment. Together, they have distilled their combined expertise
into this practical guide for finding freedom to be yourself within your relationships
instead of freedom from them. It begins with understanding where co-dependent behavior
originates and how to heal it. From their Mark and Kale offer, it's really powerful tools and
insights for setting boundaries in improving communication and ultimately, liberating the
truest version of yourself. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields
and this is Good Life Project.
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Before we start diving into the topic of Liberated Love and all the different aspects of it,
which is the name of your book as well, a little bit of a life update.
I feel like it hasn't been that long since we connected, but there's been a lot that has unfolded
and changed, not just in the world, but in your lives individually and together.
Pay to picture for me. Oh my gosh. Since the last time we've had a baby. So that's,
we got married. We had a baby and a son named Jasper who just turned over a year. He's now almost
13 months old. And so that was one of the biggest and of course writing a book in that time, which
writing a book was great preparation to having a baby, which I never would have thought of that,
being two worlds, two lenses, two creative processes. That was really profound experience
of preparation, but having a son was witnessing my wife give birth was one of the most transformative
experiences I've ever had. Yeah, to say the least. Birth and pregnancy and preconception. I mean,
the whole journey of the last three years has just been centered around creation and bringing
life into the world. And for me, that has reoriented everything in my life to the question like,
what really matters? What matters most? And how do I want to steward life and consciousness in a
good way? And how do we do that in this world at this time? It's a question that keeps me up at night,
for sure. I'm like, okay, wow, we we brought life into this world at this time. And yeah, there's
a responsibility to that. And there's a responsibility that I feel really strongly for supporting our son
to be able to stay connected to his own innate instinctual knowing so that he can live centered,
grounded and connected in this world. So my whole life oriented around, yeah, mother now,
which has been such a beautiful blessing to be able to walk through that portal with Mark and now
live into that day by day. Yeah, it is a transformation for sure. I remember for me, it was the moment I
realized that for the rest of my days, I would never be my own first impulse. You know, it was it was
always going to be in service of. And you, of course, at selfish moments, and we all want stuff
for ourselves too, but it's you're never first in line anymore. And it can be a little bit jarring,
you know, to adapt to that. But once you just kind of own it and say like, Oh, yeah, like this is
the nature of the way things have changed. It's incredibly freeing also. I don't know whether you've
experienced it. Oh, absolutely. It's been the most liberating containment I've ever experienced,
which is so opposite to how I would have oriented to the loss of of independence or me being first
in my early 20s or even in my late 20s. I'm so grateful that I went through so much before I
gave birth and felt really clear and coherent in that decision where I knew going in that I'm,
my life is going to change and my priorities will shift and I will no longer be number one. And
it's almost like I had to get all of that out of my system, if you will. So it wasn't as jarring
for me just like initially, I'd say, I think because of the conversations I've been having regarding
bringing life into the world for a very long time, I didn't take that lightly. It felt really,
yeah, it felt really big. Yeah, I think having our kid when I was 44,
yeah, that I lived a lot of life without that priority of other. I mean, we got a dog and that was
the first part of, you know, I got him when we had broken up. I had got him at that time and I
remember thinking like, oh, I can't just like travel now. I can't do all these things, but there
was a beautiful aspect of that that my life was about not that I wasn't empathic or compassionate
to other people, but it was like, oh, it's not about me only and now having a son, what I've access
that like through the work that I've done has always been a sense of accountability to like my
integrity, what matters to me, what I what I say is that it is aligned with what I do and what I do
is align with what I say, but having a son has really amplified the responsibility of being in
alignment with where actions and words matter because not only will he feed everything a lot of
the things I say, which isn't always going to be good, but he's going to be witnessing is my father's
someone who keeps his word, who's reliable, who who actually lives at the values that he talks about.
Yeah, and as every parent learns pretty quickly, it really doesn't matter what you say.
Kids are watching every moment. Even when you think they're not and they're picking up on it and
it's all about the behavior that you model. It's like, and if there's a disconnect between the words
you say and the behavior modeling, it's a little bit scrambling and you get called on it pretty quickly.
Either because the kids when they're actually able to calls you on it or they manifest the
behavior, which is not the behavior that you hope to be transmitting and you're like, where've
this come from? Right. But you get it either way. You basically at the same time of bringing
a child into the world, also birth a book, which is oddly for many authors in nine month process as
well. I don't know how long it took for you to do it. Yeah, that was pretty much yeah,
nine to ten months is what our timeline one. Yeah, it tends to overlap in a lot of interesting
ways. And the name of the book is Liberated Love and Kylie used the word Liberated a couple
times when we were just talking. So when you use the phrase Liberated Love, what are we actually
talking about here? It's to be liberated in love is to be able to be all of who you are and bring
all of who you are into relationship. Your needs, your desires, your emotions, your your soul,
your internal world out into the external world. And I think to kind of get to how or what is
that actually require of one. And for us in this book and also our personal journeys is to be
able to even access that level of authenticity or liberation in self. We need to have a strong
inner foundation of self trust, of self competency of like, I know that no matter what I've got my own
back. And I can resource in ways that allow me to to show up authentically in my relational
dynamics. You want to expand on that? Yeah, I think you nailed it. It's like can this relationship
be a place where we use the frictions that we have, the challenges that we have, the things you
witness in me that you think I could get better at. I think of my relationships in my early 20s.
I did not orient a feedback from my partners from a place of like, thank you so much for offering
me this opportunity to be better at relationship. But you know, through the experience of our
relationship and the work that we both do independently and together, it was like, oh, this is
the material. Like, this is stuff that's being asked to get cleared so we can actually just go
deeper or find deeper intimacy, build deeper trust. And you know, ironically, so many of us leave
our relationship and then do everything that we wanted to do and we start to pursue our dreams or
we don't become all of ourselves in our relationship. We don't use the possibility of two people
and you know, in families and I guess Polyamorous too. They can thicken out a few extra to that
soup. But it's like, we don't use the possibilities of the two people standing shoulder to shoulder,
looking at the world, you're stronger. You have more diverse views. You have the power of two
perspectives and liberated love is about really celebrating that and really using that in a way
that's productive for both people and ultimately a real fierce dedication to telling the truth
because so many family systems and relationships are about avoiding the truth. And that really is
what produces so many of our challenging behaviors as adults where we want to release ourselves from,
you know, as the book we talk about, releasing codependent patterns that we really want to let go
of these adaptive strategies, heal them and actually turn towards what's real.
Yeah, and I want to dive into the notion of codependency because I think this is a phrase that we've
seen thrown out in movies and sitcoms in countless books and I think there's a whole bunch of confusion,
what it is, what is and why it matters, you know, like is it a good thing, a bad thing, is it a fake
thing, a real thing. But before we get there, the way that you're sort of describing relationships as
these containers for the full self expression and liberation of the individual within the context of
a relationship, how does that square with the idea of soulmates? Soulmates. Soulmates is such an
interesting concept because I think, you know, having been on social media teaching this stuff
for so long, soulmates, twin flame, you know, all the things, I mean, I know someone who believes
their twin flame is someone who's in another relationship, but they have great connection. You
know, so I think words like soulmate and twin flame can be ways that we stay locked in dynamics that
are maybe not productive or helpful or they're not actually the other person isn't even interested
in working through things with us. I think the word soulmate is also a concept that's very scarce
minded in that there's only one person that we can be with and so I'm going to relate in a way
that this is the only person and so, you know, we might give someone the title like I met my soulmate
after a couple dates, which, you know, I think the better thing to do is allow someone to become
that allows someone to earn the place of being the one. And so the concept here, I think how those
can bump up against each other or compliment one another is that really my belief is that a soulmate
is someone who's inviting you to heal something to actually, it could be the person that doesn't choose
you that actually invites you to recognize that you have a pattern that you pursue people that don't
choose you and so you finally choose yourself and so it's actually in the saying goodbye that your
trust within yourself is born and healing probably from some pretty long family pattern lenient
like probably not the first person that did that in your family system and so I really think
of it more from that place, you know, that it's someone who's really inviting you to meet your soul
and to really give birth to your soul to the fullest self expression of whatever that means for
somebody. What do you think? Yeah, I think we can have many soulmates on this path. Absolutely.
People that bring us closer to what is real, what is alive, what is what is true in our beings.
I know that for me, yeah, I love that mark like there's not just one person out there for me,
there's many and there's many soulmates that are here to activate certain lessons for each of us
in our own soul's path so not living in the there's just one has been for me personally has been
really supportive and being able to stay anchored in what it is that I know I want and desire in
relationship and also in the clients I work with is it creates more space and flexibility instead
of just collapsing. Oh, this is the one and only. It's like, well, no, there's many fish in the sea.
Absolutely. And there's many fish in the sea for you. Well, so many of us don't bring a lot of
what we truly feel to relationship because we're afraid it will end the relationship.
And operating from this fear where in society we really have created a hierarchy based on relational
status. So if you're married, you're doing better than somebody's engaged, you're doing better
than somebody's dating, you're doing better than somebody's single and gotforbid, you're divorced.
Right. So it's like, we've given this idea that the being in a relationship somehow validates
your worth that oh, you're you're still single. You didn't bring anyone to Christmas this year.
Like there's this idea that you have an ailment if you're single. And so if someone isn't choosing
you then there's no evidence yet that you're worthy of being chosen. What this does though is it
has us stay in relationships because maybe culturally too or religiously it could be many things.
There's shaming against relational endings. So I say all that because we avoid the very
conversations that might end them, but those are actually the conversations that deepen them.
Because what happens is the relationship becomes this place that says, we actually honor the truth
first. And I'm not going to put your experience of the truth ahead of the truth because that's
you know, at the basis of that is me trying to protect you from reality. And that's not helpful.
Anyway, relationally, I mean, it's interesting. The way you're describing it, you're almost like
describing that there are two acknowledged people or maybe more in the particular relationship.
But there's almost like these silent players. There's truth and delusion.
Right. Have a seat at the table at the same time. You're constantly doing this dance. Like,
if we get the potatoes past to them, even when it's silent. Yeah, I think it kind of brings us
back to this notion of co-dependency also, which like you talk about in a number of different
contexts, especially earlier in the book, kind of take me into this concept a little bit. And what
it is and where it comes from and why this actually matters in the context of this thing that we're
calling liberated love. Yeah, absolutely. I think for the listeners and for us and how we define
co-dependency, our book is co-dependency is any relational dynamic where we source safety or security
from someone or something outside of ourselves at the expense of our well-being, our needs, and our
wholeness. And the key words, Jonathan, are at the expense of. Right. Because of course, we're humans,
we have needs and we are designed to meet these needs in various of ways. It's when they become
at the expense of our well-being and our wholeness that co-dependency starts to emerge.
And the imprints of co-dependency start at a very, very, very young age. So, for example,
you're a little, you're a little baby and you come into this world, you're 100% dependent on your
mother or primary caregiver to meet all of your needs. That's just the design. And let's just say mom
is overwhelmed under-resourced, is struggling herself to stay regulated because it's a lot. The
baby in that inconsistent environment learns, okay, I need to separate from me and start to orient
my consciousness around mother and constantly ask and live by these questions like, mom, are you okay?
How can I support you? Mom, what can I do? How can I make sure that you're okay so that I'm okay?
And this happens through various ruptures in an early family system. This can happen because of
birth trauma. I mean, there's so many different angles to look at why there's ruptures in these
core attachments with mother. And we go through that in the book in a more detailed, but essentially,
it's where we try to control the external environment as a way to make sure that we feel okay because
we actually don't feel okay in our own bodies because we haven't gained enough of a infrastructure
to self-regulate based off of co-regulation. So in order to self-regulate and be able to regulate
our nervous systems, we've needed other people, adults who are regulated to co-regulate with. And we
have insufficient co-regulation in early childhood. We lack the infrastructure we need to be able
to handle the ebbs and flows of life, which allows codependency to really creep in. Mailed it.
So at some point, which is interesting because you made a really distinct clarification,
like when you sort of shared your definition of it, which is, which almost like I translate and
tell me if I heard this right or not, is like, there's a functional version of dependence or
interdependence. But it has the ability to sort of tip into this land where it becomes dysfunctional
and harmful. And I would imagine that a lot of our lives were doing this dance between,
like, how do I lean on somebody? How do I depend on them? How do I want from them and make myself
available for the same in the same way to them, but not tip into this place of, with some cost
associated with my own humanity? Yeah, so easy to do, too, really. That's the dance of
recognizing where you end and other people begin and where your needs and wants are in the
relationship that we create space for not just our own needs and wants, but also for the other
persons. And really, from what is the greatest struggle people experience in relationship,
is like, how do I hold on to me and be in relationship with you? Most of us abandon ourselves
for the relationship or even abandon relationship for the self. So how do we stay in that center
space between where it's a constant dance? And that's why I think relationship is such a powerful
vehicle. Like, we could have this in relationship to so many different people, different dynamics,
but romantic relationships really offer this magnifying glass and amplification. I think the
frequency of the touch points of what we need to do better or could do better in relationship
or just, we also seem to find a deep motivation for love. We don't have the same motivation for
other things, but love, we have a motivation that's like, I really actually do want to get this
right. And regardless of whatever template we have, like, Kyle was speaking to you about,
let's say the relationship is an infant with a mother, we can learn how to create, you know,
what are called like a secure attachment. We can learn how to operate interdependently.
We can learn these things. These are not, you know, things that are just for, quote, unquote,
lucky people. These are like actual skill sets. And once we recognize that, we start to see that
relationships actually were not meant to feel the way that we often think they have to be,
or this is just my destiny. And it's like, no, what do you desire? Let's create that.
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Because part of what you're describing is it's hard to be in a relationship a really healthy
functional you're loving open relationship that's positive without doing the work to really
know yourself as individuals at the same time but at the same time it this goes back to a conversation
I had years ago a stand tack in this relationship therapist who's like everybody thinks that we know
ourselves by going into ourselves by contemplation by self-study by therapy he's like that's actually
not how it works like we know ourselves through relationship with others the best way that we
actually have to get to know ourselves is in relationship with others which is counterintuitive
in a lot of different ways so it's almost like you want to show up in a relationship fully as
yourself like I know who I am I know all these different things about myself and yet we need
relationships to let us know who we are not entirely like there's a lot of you know personal
work that we can do in introspection and meditation and therapy but it's the relationship or the
existence of like a series of relationships over time if you really like drop into them and try
and be aware and learn from them and grow from them like that's part of the mechanism that we
rely on to actually figure out who we are as individuals so it's a little bit of a weird catch
22 isn't it yeah absolutely learning through the mirror of other this is this is life right
let all of life is relationship and and not just romantic but like who am I in the mirror of my
mother and my father in my my matrilineal line like all of these different mirrors to really
understand who we are and where we come from and and what is all of this about and I think the
beautiful thing about the way I see this conversation in terms of like bringing all of who we are
is I don't know all of who I am and that's a beautiful thing about this mystery like we're still
discovering parts about one another and deeper imprints and patterns that have been outside of
our conscious awareness and for me what really liberates us in this process of finding who we are
and continuing to welcome more of who we are is the communication and the openness and the dialogue
that we get to have in relationship so that when something does come up because listen frictions are
are going to come up always and forever hopefully but it's like we turn towards those and we allow
those frictions to invite in deeper parts of ourselves that we maybe haven't yet met or touched
or examined in relationships so that they can have a seat at the table too so I really love that
you bring that point forward of of we never know who we are all period full stop and that's the
beauty of relationship is as we continue to walk this path can we bring more of that into
into the dynamic for us to explore together and that's one of the key tenants of liberated love is
like all of who we are is met with reverence yeah it makes me think of the quote from Harville
Hendrix and Helen Hum where they say that you're born in relationship you're wounded in relationship
and you heal in relationship so you know as you're saying it's you we actually require it and
and to you know we might be single and and doing the work quote unquote and then we get into a
relationship we start dating and we're like oh my gosh like I thought I had this stuff figured out
and it's like this is the figuring it out this is you know it's this idea that you're going to
get to this place where there's no longer a trigger it's like well the trigger is actually just a
radar it's like what you do with it that matters you know it's not that great couples don't fight
it's that they just fight differently they actually fight in a way where the conflict is
is resolving something that is alchemizing or merging two worlds into creating something separate
and that's why I like the third perspective is is always more brilliant when created from from
two separate ones in part what we're talking about also here is and you guys mention this is the
notion of attachment styles because you know like we all based on how we were raising a whole
bunch of other things you write about this you know the mother father threshold is just innate
things that shape us in the way that we feel like safely or securely or like that we all have
attachment styles by the time we become adults you know probably a lot earlier than that actually
but many of us have no self-awareness of what those styles are and how they affect us and how they
affect how we show up and whether they're healthy or not whether they're helping us or really
destructive individually and like in a relationship and it's really hard to tease out what those styles
are if they're not being triggered in some way by being in a relationship with somebody else like
it's really hard to just think what is my style you know like let me run some scenarios in my head
I mean am I just making that up or just have you seen that in sort of in practice yeah 100% I always
think of attachment which is such a beautiful framework for us understanding how we relate to
other people and it's a way of systemizing like our behaviors you know ultimately when like how do
we deal with insecurity how do we deal with an unreliable person or somebody's breaking our trust
and I think about the different attachment styles from really how we relate to space between
us and other people so really anxious attachment style for you listening or watching it's
it's somebody who's more pursuant someone who you might be more drawn to unavailability but like
there's an inability to be with too much space between you and the other person so you try to
actually break down the space from a nervous system perspective at Kai was touching on that before
there's an inability to self-regulate so to like be with the uncertainty the anxieties like where
do I fit that kind of question is always being asked by us really two questions are always being
asked by us is this relationship safe and that's every relationship we're in doesn't matter
the context and the second question is am I safe to be myself and ultimately we will compromise
number two for number one always so if like being myself compromises the relationship I'll
compromise who I am in order to keep the connection the avoidance style is really more of a distancing
so it's like I am actually afraid of closeness so I keep space between me and other and secure I
mean the we dive deep into all the different attachments styles in the book I think it is a really
powerful framework and it is necessary to have another person in order to get that because I would
say we are definitely we can feel very secure when we're not having to deal with anybody else I
think anyone can relate to that you're like so good at being single I I mean people all the time
we're like I'm not dating ever again like I'm not dating ever again because relationships
they're just too much work too much this too much that and I respect everyone's perspective but I
think ultimately pretending that which would be more of an avoidance style but pretending that I
just don't need relationships or need other people is really just because we fear the closeness we
fear what might happen if we get near people if we need them and so we still haven't learned
the skill set to be able to one manage our needs in relationship to others but also how to pick
people who are open to learning how to relate differently so how do we how do we pick different
people yeah because you talk about that as a skill set a learnable set of skills where do we start
with that like if somebody is listening to this and then like I have blasted my way through a
series of relationships of repetitive years or decades and I still haven't really figured
this thing out like what is that opening skill set that allows us to step into the process
of finding a new relationship without hopefully just repeating the same pattern like like just
hitting you know hitting that's like spin cycle where it's just the same things keep unfolding
over and over like what are the core strategies or skills here that we want as we step into or
we want to start to step into a relationship but have it unfold differently than it has in the past
well I'll start with that you know in the book we cover your relationship blueprint which is
really like where does it all come from like why do you do what you do and the reason that is so
important is it adds context to our behavior so if I'm someone who's repeating the same pattern
stating the same type of people I might have shame associated with that like why do I keep picking
these types of people and everyone else's seems to be so happy and it's like well I'll hear people
say a lot something like I can't believe I do this or I can't believe I did that and it's like well
that's actually the exact behavior that you learned that was necessary to get you where you are
today so the things we learn to function in our family systems and to be in relationship are
actually evolutionarily the perfect behavior they might not be healthier functional as an adult
but it's important to have compassion for the things even that were ashamed of that get us to
where we are and you know in the book we set it up also telling the narrative of our own relationship
as well as client stories but relationship 1.0 the sacred pause and then relationship 2.0
and the journey of understanding attachment styles nervous system relationship blueprint is
part of that first part but the sacred pause is really about coming back to who you are who are
you really what do you want to create can we yeah and it's you know we use the in the chapter it's
the liberation through limitation and it's this conscious choice to create a container
for a set period of time to stop dating altogether is the example I'm going to give in this
because it's the example I walked where I was I kept finding myself in these code dependent dynamics
and I couldn't understand like what was in the way why do I keep attracting this why do I keep
finding myself in the same spot where I'm disconnected from my voice from who I am and I feel
helpless and luckily I've met a few guides on my path and one of them is Mark Wolland who's the
author of it didn't start with you and he looks at family constellation therapy so looking at
intergenerational patterns and how they kind of play out in your relationships and he said to me on
a call he was like listen he's like what you need to do is you need to enter into a conscious
container where you remove men from your life for very for a specific amount of time and for me I
was like do I do I really need to do that work and he said point blank and I love mentors and elders
who just look at you and they're like all right if you don't do this work I'm going to have the same
conversation with you in two years and nothing scares me more than being in the same conversation
in the same pattern in the same wound for an extended period of time and at that point my life
I was like I was completely over code dependency and finding myself in these dynamics so I entered
into a conscious container where for three months I said a container and it was like I'm not going
to seek date search reach out to Mark like I was going to completely remove men from my life and
I was completely shook with how much activation came up in my nervous system when I chose to step
into that container I did not know that I was terrified to be alone in the ways that my nervous
system was then expressing as I made the conscious choice I didn't know that I was utilizing my
relationships to men and the seeking and the connecting with to really source so much of my safety
and security and validation and really understanding my own existence and really man had become
mother for me I was like everything I was searching for mother I just projected onto man and I wanted
man to meet all of the needs that my mother didn't in early childhood and this container allowed me
to release men from needing to do that but also for me to come back to my own inner child and come
back to do this nervous system work that I needed to do so that I could relate differently in
relationships moving forward because they were outside of my conscious awareness I didn't know
they were actually driving every single decision I made until I actually stopped and removed the
decision altogether so by consciously removing something I was able to go look under the hood and
be like oh this part of me that's terrified to be alone that's terrified to step into agency that's
terrified to step into anger that's terrified to step into all of these pieces these the parts I
need to be with in order to actually shift my relational dynamics how do you know when it's time for
that container to end and you're ready to shift back into relational mode because I would imagine
okay so you take this time let's just say I'm gonna do it for three months yeah and I would imagine
some people a month in are just they're they're feeling all the feels and everything that you're
talking about like I'm good I figured it out I really like boom you know like the lightning bolts
have come I'm ready and then some people are gonna be six months into this or a year into it
and they're gonna be like this it's just not coming like the insights aren't coming I'm just
I'm getting lonely and lonely I've like created this container like I'm and I'm not I don't feel
any better or any different or any wider or any more ready to step back into relationship with
other people so my curiosity is like how do you know when it's time to step out of the container
and back into relationships yeah that's a really great question and it's a living question
it's one that I would place in back into people's hands in terms of really attuning with
their own bodies their own path and asking questions of like is it time for me to leave this container
does it feel complete do I feel like I'm ready to step out of this container and for me I actually
broke my container within it I was the first example you gave Jonathan I'm like oh everything's
great I've got it all figured out and like I'm doing really well and then yeah I broke my container
because a fear popped in and was like you're gonna lose him forever if you don't reach out
and so I did reach out and I broke my container which you know for those listening or if they
actually implement a container and you break it it's like this is actually where the juices this
is where the work is is like if you break the container then you have to really look at okay why
did you break your own container your word to self and how can you double down on your devotion to
what it is that you're doing right now like what is your wife for doing this work and so for me I had
to double down on that devotion and actually go back into the container for a longer period of time
because I wasn't ready I wasn't ready to leave and the reason I knew that is because
somatically I could feel it like it didn't I didn't feel well like my body was communicating to me
is like uh this isn't this isn't the right time you need to go back into the container so I am
somebody who loves to invite my clients and the people I work with to tune back into their body
and really start to live into these questions of how does it feel when when I move out of the
container when I am complete and when I open up the dating app or I'm open to dating again how does
that feel in my body do I feel good about that decision what would you say in addition to that
well it's a usually so like the idea of container is agreements right so the concept we present in
the book is that you could be in a relationship and and enter a sacred pause where you're really
just pausing the old way of being and so you create an agreed upon time you might when you get to
the end of let's say the three months you might be like do we want to extend this or do we want to
now exit it as Kai saying like really tuning back into itself I think the one thing I'll say is
leaving the container early is almost I would argue almost always a fear of actually not being able
to make it to then so if I'm talking to someone and they're saying I'm going to take a three month
break from dating they'll inevitably want to break it they'll inevitably the like perfect
almost person will show up covered in coke not oil and they're just like how do I not you know
but it's actually that trust of enduring and making it through to the end of the agreed upon time
that you build the capacity to know that when you are faced with relational choices that you've got
you first and the reason why this is so pivotal because I think you could stay too long and that
long would be because we're actually avoiding re-entering relationships so there needs to be an
internal sort of question of like am I ready to date because I'm really excited to and it's
coming from an integrated place or am I feeling a frenetic energy that I'm just trying to get rid of
but the real inquiry I think that people want to have is to be able to explore like when we're
actually in that dating possibility in the dating the world is like if my pattern is to say yes to
unavailable people or to agree to let's say situationships or friends with benefits when I really
want more but that I actually entertain what is actually not a full yes till I actually know that
I can say no to what is not a yes my yes is not trustworthy or authentic and that's so key for
people to recognize is you have to learn that because till you have access to a no your yes is not
yes so that's the agreements really that you're creating within whatever container you create
are so imperative in that like it's just those choices you make every day that really build the
evidence that you're someone who keeps your word with yourself first and as you were saying you
know you don't even get to know yourself without these sort of experiences of being in relationship
with the other and then you see how much you compromise yourself and what you desire and what you
need and what you want and that you've probably been doing in your whole life.
Hmm. I mean it makes a lot of sense and especially if you really thoughtful again I love the sort
of description of a container as a set of agreements you know with yourself and potentially with
others too if it's sort of a shared container but you know if you make it really clear what those
agreements are upfront then it becomes more clear when the desire to break those agreements arises
rather than just kind of being all I'm going to do this thing for a while not being really crystal
clear and really articulate about what those are and the notion of also feeling in your body
I feel like it's so important I feel like we're so disconnected from the wisdom of our bodies
these days we're trying to think answers through to everything like we intellectualize it you know
like let me let me get out the checklist here. You know let me put it into AI these days you know
like am I done with the container like you know rather than you know the notion of
reconnecting to what our body is telling us like our somatic sensibilities is so alien to so many
people now yet it contains so much of the wisdom and the answers that we seek and we just pretend
it doesn't exist so I love the invitation to also say okay so don't just wait for us to
like the checklist answers are like the rational conversation to sort of like figure out like am I 80%
there because at that point like I think you're like now I'm good but that's you tuned into what
your body and what your physiology you're telling you do you feel in the folks that you work with
over time that there is this disconnect with somatic wisdom is a widespread thing oh gosh yeah
yeah I mean it's so like if we just look at our culture in general it's like so many of us are
living disconnected and dysregulated it kind of has just been the norm like and not only that but in
the west we've really honored the mind the intellect the rationale over the body or over instinct
or intuition and we've kind of suppressed those or created a pseudo hierarchy where it's like we're
going to disconnect from all of that or label it as woo or you know however culture has you know
disconnected us from the bodies and from the neck down really so what we see in a lot of our
clients is so much of us are in this thawing process of really thawing our nervous systems out of
freeze that freeze response that we talk about early on in the book of like whoo it wasn't safe for
me to touch all of these emotions to grieve to be connected to my anger to run when I wanted to run
to fight back when I wanted to fight back and I've just had to be frozen and it's hard to discern
what's capital key T truth for you when you're frozen and so this is like a really tender process
that so many of my clients walk through is like really allowing themselves to have the space to
grieve and process and and feel what what has never been felt before so that they can actually
come back into right relationship with their intuition and instinct and live live outside of
just the mental realm and you know so many I'll say for for I'm going to speak generally from
for women here is there's so much self gaslighting because there's been so much external gaslighting
of our intuition and instincts and so we're like having to peel back all of that that all of that
internalize shame and all that internalize repression and actually start to own that our bodies
are wise that our intuition has wisdom that our instincts are are there for a reason and so
really grateful that a lot of people are doing this work to thaw and remember and restore that
connection because I believe it's the only way forward for us as a species. Yeah, thaw is such an
interesting word because it's all said it's not like when you're when your own nervous system
is disregulated and you're in that frozen state oftentimes like whoever you were in relationship with
that relationship becomes frozen as well and the whole relationship needs to thaw does that
make sense? Oh yeah, it does. I mean so many of us are in our adaptive strategy so we're like
too- frozen and reactive people you know are the way we operate in conflict is usually a behavior
pattern that we learned really young and you can ask someone like how old do you feel right now
and they'll be like eight, twelve like you we know where the where then the neuro pathways were
forged like this is what I need to do when this situation shows up and it's like the by thawing
out the nervous system we create more space between that stimulus and response and you know I
think so much of look at the way that short-form content and social media is all really appeals to
the need to regulate it's like I'm just going to keep going down this rabbit hole where there's
literally thousands of behavioral scientists that are designing these products in order for me not
to be with my own self and I think for a lot of us that's how do you not become addicted to something
that is specifically designed to actually do that and I mean I don't the answer I guess is not
get rid of smartphones but there's definitely an answer somewhere yeah there's some sort of I
don't think anyone has figured out that answer yet like it's so intertwined it's just the way
that we live our lives now and also in a lot of great ways like right you know that technology is
can be amazing in a lot of ways for relationships and for life but yeah I think we're all grappling
with the tug you know that's really persistent intermittent reinforcement that Joseph won't let us go
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so curiosity here also you know you describe this early the process of you know creating
container liberation through limitation let me let me create this this sort of like set of
limitations and agreements because I need this time to do the work and really self reflect and maybe
do some some individual growing within it and maybe you're in that container alone but maybe you're
in it in a relationship to and at some point you emerge from that container and hopefully like
somewhat different or at least wise or at least knowing yourself better and then ready to step
back into a relationship in a way where you're you're showing up or at least maybe you're not
even ready to show up more as that person who you know know yourself to be but at least you know
that person better and then you step back into this relationship and even if you have an isolated
yourself from it you know like you're maybe you're married for 20 years and you decide like we
need to take this three month window to really really create this experience and then the window
expires and you're sort of like we're stepping back into this and my curiosity is because I've
seen this through sort of personal growth experiences and transformational programs where
people are in a relationship and generally one person takes the lead in this process of growth
and transformation one person is generally more motivated more curious about it more open to
actually doing the work and enduring the uncomfortable you know that goes along with it and oftentimes
the other person's like you know I see the benefit of this like I'll kind of go along for this
ride like this could lead to some repositive but oftentimes I've seen scenarios where it is
really one person who's like all in and the other person is kind of like you along for the ride
and then that leads to very different end states very different levels of individual growth and
revelation and sometimes transformation so when you emerge out of that container and one person
is like very change you know the person's kind of like can I'm ready to sort of like just you know
like drop back into the way things were ish but maybe a little bit better that can create some
really powerful dynamics I mean you talk about this in the book on the you know the context of
reopening your heart being seen in a new light after personal growth sometimes it can be powerful
and amazing and oh wow like this is incredible but sometimes if there's these unevenly distributed
growth experiences it can also lead to a lot of friction can it? Yeah I mean 100% and I'd say this
would just be more fuel for the for the work more material because you know when you have that
dynamic when one person is the one who drives growth which I'd say if we're speaking head
or normatively that's usually the woman you know it's like I read this book I listen to this
podcast like I want to do this I want to do that I remember interviewing Harriet learner years ago
and she said to me that the reason that women consume emotionally you know emotional intelligence
relational information is because the subordinate group always needs to learn the needs and nuances
of the dominant group so there's a survival based motivation and women really are they initiate
divorce more than men I think in 70% after the age of 40 so it's like they're a much more
accurate barometer of relational health and they have a lower tolerance for a lack of relational
health this isn't you know necessarily it I wouldn't say this is a bad thing but what happens
when we enter that that let's say a married couple enters that three month container is there
is a recognition a calling forward of like I feel like I've been driving this I feel like I'm the
one bringing the book I'm the one book and the things I'm the one who brought this book you know
the person who is the over pursuer or the one who's you know the term I've used is called over
functioning is like I'm doing everything is going to learn through I mean through our book
but through that experience of the container that they actually need to step back that you know
early when Kylie and I were dating I'm more prone to being anxious and Kylie we were both
but she was more prone to being avoidant and so I realized like how could she come towards me if
I'm always taking up the space and so there was this real learning of me staying in my own
name me like inviting her forward and the container would create that like just through creating
the agreements of a three month container for a married couple there is now we're both responsible
for this and the agreements that we come up with is like that the other person has to come up with
some things has to like they're also bringing their own agreements into the circumstances
so one person would start to get a regular functioning and the other one the terminology would be
called under functioning they would actually step in to becoming driving more of the relational
dynamic now one of the things we talk about in the book for couples is that the intention like
let's say they're exploring the question do we just stay together or not the purpose of the
container is not to stay together the purpose is to actually explore things and be open to like
when you get to the end of that container first off when you're beginning it do you even want to
enter it right because like what are you going to do enter a container with someone who doesn't
want to do it so already that's brought forward but let's say we get to the end of it or like is
this relationship actually in as a romantic relationship in the highest service of both of us
these realities exist anyways as humans we don't want to confront these realities but it's
actually through that truth that's being saying like this is what's real for me and so many of us
will never say that thing will spend our whole lives in relationships without saying that thing so
I know that was a long way around the barn but to say that the person who's over pursuing needs to
start to take a step back because that would likely be the healing of a pattern and the person
who is not meeting at the same level is likely healing a pattern too what do you think yeah I've
seen so many of my clients and I work predominantly with women with women of 99 percent women get really
clear about what's not working and what they desire and bring that forward and when they do that
when they trust in those desires enough and start to embody that self-trust that I'm going to
bring what's in here out out into the world out into this relationship it really catalyzes
the other partner and sometimes it does end a relational ending but what I've seen which has been
really fascinating is it actually catalyzes the other person their partners to do the work
necessary to meet them back like in a full circle kind of way where it's like I'm not going to
tolerate this and that that no ignites their partner on their own personal journey to come back
into a full yes very similar to us but I keep seeing it in the work and that obviously is a
shorter term relational dynamic not a long term like married but at some point like Mark saying
we have to stop trying to fix change prod heal our partners like we're not their mothers like at
some point we released all of that energy and focus like bring that back in on self and then start
getting clear yes on the agreements and also what it is that we desire in our relationships
and hopefully by bringing more of who we are and that truth into the relationship container
like it does allow us to get to the deeper truth of maybe I'm interested in that path or I'm
not interested in that path yeah it's interesting when one person is constantly trying to fix and
take care of other people and the origins of the terminology codependency we really come from
being in a relationship with an addict and that term popularized by Melody Beatty and her work
and so it's like the other person identifies as being a problem that needs to be solved that
they're never showing up enough they're never oh I need to read another book so their identity
has to die of like I'm broken and I need to be in relationship with someone who's going to
constantly remind me of my brokenness it's like when an addict finally gets sober it's because
the person says that like usually you see these interventions right where they say we're no longer
going to tolerate this and we're not going to enable anymore same idea and the other person
then gets sober ideally and then the people who were trying to get them to change have to get
sober from the addiction of trying to get people to change so it's like if you need me because you
have something flawed or wrong with you then you you're going to keep me close you're not going to
leave me because you need me and so both of those identities and adaptive strategies have to be
loved and then let go for liberated love to thrive yeah it's that letting go part you know it's like
you did all the work like we did the healing but now not quite right you know it's sort of like
this constant shedding process and and and re-burning it's like you know perpetual phoenix to a certain
extent and you can look at that as terrifying and demoralizing like quote one will this ever end
or you can look at and say well how cool is that like I'm going to spend my entire life
getting to know who I am I'm working to spend our entire lives god willing getting to know each
other and that may change and shift over time you know it's funny you're describing like a
harval Hendrix quote many many many many years ago I was at a workshop and as happened in those
workshops like a couple get invited into the middle there's a circle like a hundred other people
around there and there's one couple it stayed with me got invited into the middle and they were
an absolute emotional mess and basically saying like this was they tried everything else and they
were there because this was their last shot they were desperately trying to keep their relationship
together and what didn't come out of either of their mouths was we want to know if this should stay
but we want to know actually if this is like should we actually keep this together the assumption
was like no like we have to and I think that brings us back to another thing that you you explore in
the book which is this how often we allow our this state of our relationships to be governed by
societal norms and expectations you know and the shame of not living up to those norms even though
within the context of our own individual relationships those norms could be brutalizing on a daily
basis and completely inappropriate and damaging for us yet we're so wrapped up and wanting to be
seen in a certain way and not letting other people down who you know we want to see us in a
particular way or having quote failed at this thing that you're not supposed to fail at it's
fascinating to me how much of our theoretical individual choice is governed by wanting to
conform to cultural societal familial norms and you know you speak to this in a powerful way also
and I think I wonder what tools or questions we might ask to try and identify like where's
this coming from hmm the exploration yeah that's starting to tease out of like why I think even
is a roomy who says live the questions right like just even being open if we're starting to even
ask questions we're already in a really beautiful beginning or continuation of an adventure but I
think the questions we would ask is when we understand our family frameworks then we will start
to put pieces together like when we start to see the blueprint of how our mother or father showed
up and we talk in the book about the mass that we wear and different blind spots that we have
that will help facilitate a lot of introspection I think but as you go on the adventure of discovering
like where do things come from you and inevitably start to tease out who have I become in order to
be loved and is this stuff I want to keep like is this minor is this culture like I remember when I
did my undergraduate degree in finance I didn't do it because I loved finance I never touched
finance again after that you know I did it because that was the undergraduate degree I was taught
was going to be the most reliable to become a good provider yeah remind me of the questions in
chapter two is like what am I sourcing externally from someone or something at the expense of
love and is this sustainable for me energetically emotionally physically spiritually it allows us to
start to to look at okay where am I sourcing externally like maybe that validation that security
that safety that love attention that identity and what's the cost of that to me right now and is
this sustainable for me and is this working right is this actually working yeah where will my life
be in one year five years ten years twenty years if I keep doing things the way I'm doing it I
think we don't take the time often like we have a whole chapter called getting right with reality
and that being about this adventure of like really discovering like what is true that I don't
want to acknowledge what's the true that or a feeling I've had that I've never labeled
and so I think by doing that you start to tease out you know the recognition that you I always
think back to that and I know I said it already but it's like who do we become in order to maintain
belonging like who do we become in order to maintain love quote unquote love because you know we're
really inviting that self abandonment and service of connection is not off yeah now that really
resonates deeply you kind of come full circle in the book the conversation really starts out in
a lot related diving into codependency and attachment styles which we've talked about and how
this affects our relationships and then we cultural norms and how those external expectations
affect doesn't how to create this container where we can just create our own space to really like
go deep and then see if we can grow and change and step back into relationship that way but um
you know you also you don't say we need to exist outside of culture in fact the opposite the end
of the day like this relationship I think it was the title of one of the last chapters in the book
it takes a village right the classic line you know like there is a role for what would be called
interdependence and this thing you know that you describe building a golden net and you know this
is not about trying to isolate yourself from community or family or society or culture it's about
really trying to understand who am I just in the smaller dynamic but then how do I exist and
get all the nourishing amazing benefits of actually being a part of this bigger ecosystem also because
we are like interdependence is kind of like where the greatest flourishing happens I feel like
individually and as culture I mean does that make sense absolutely we look at a garden bed and we
see all these interdependent relationships with the water the sun the companion plants the pollinators
like they need everything works symbiotically and humans are the same way we have just forgotten
you know even just the cultural norms of like rugged individualism of like you should be able to
do it all on your own and you're you know gold star for being self-reliant and all these stuff
and it's like self-self self right and it's like no actually that's not in service to our well-being
we need one another and not only do we need other humans and sisterhood and brotherhood and family
blood and kin but we also need and this is where my work is heading is like we need a deeper
relationship with the earth with the elements with the plants with the animals like all of these ways
that we can resource and be in mutual reciprocity with our things that I think humans have been
severed from and we're returning to because we can't just rely on humans for everything there's
not that we can we can of course you know have a diverse community of humans but I think the
invitation is is deeper it feels deeper to me if like actually restoring our relationships with
the whole circle of life to really tap into the magic of interdependence in the way that I see
it and feel it in my body yeah I think what you're speaking to is like when we see research that says
forest bathing is good for you and it's like do we need research just go take your shoes off
your socks off and put your feet on the ground like take a big deep breath and look out at a vista
you know like look at the ocean listen to the waves like all of these meditation sounds that we
like put in our head that are nature you know you go to a spa what are they up playing like birds
dourch you know tweeting and stuff and it just tells you it's like they our nervous system is
meant to be in those environments and we do need each other so it's not about not needing each
other it's about creating a space where needs are honored and that there's not a compromise of
self and I think that's when I say compromise I'm really mean the abandonment of self because
compromise in a relationship the difference between that and self abandonment is that compromises in
service of the connection of the community but there's also a recognition of the loss so there's
not a like oh you had to give that up it's like an actual recognition of the loss yes yeah but that's
the we get to interdependence by walking through the fire of saying this part of me matters or this
need matters or this value matters enough so that we can even find the people who align with that
on the other side right yeah like it's so much about trusting that there are people there is
that golden net available to us as we continue to live in integrity with our bodies with our intuition
with our instincts and with with who we are now that makes so much sense feels like a good place
for us to come full circle as well so Mark I've asked you this question before but it's been a
couple of years since so I'm gonna ask both of you in this container of good life project if I
offer up the phrase to live a good life what comes up Kylie oh my gosh the first thing that comes
to me is like is to live simply connected with loved ones the elements the earth and
my heart and soul well the last time I answered that question I didn't have a son so I would say
to live a good life is to yeah to be with people you love thank you thank you thank you hey before
you leave if you love this episode safe that you'll also love the conversation we have with Julian
John Gottman about sustaining love and long-term relationships you'll find a link to that episode
in the show notes this episode of Good Life project was produced by executive producers Lindsey
Fox and me Jonathan Fields editing helped by Alejandro Ramirez Christopher Carter crafted our
theme music and special thanks to Shelley Del for her research on this episode and of course if
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