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This episode contains explicit language.
This is The Sporkful.
It's not for foodies, it's for eaters.
I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people.
And we are coming to you live from Sirius XM Studios in New York City.
We are here at the Mothership Sirius XM Studios in the heart of Midtown with an intimate audience that was lucky enough to be picked out of a raffle to win.
So that's why you should be listening carefully and following me on Instagram because you could win exciting things like that.
But this is even more exciting than a normal live show, because this will be our first ever attempt at a live version of a Salad Spinner episode.
Salad Spinner, of course, is what we call our rapid fire roundtable discussion of the biggest, strangest, and most surprising food stories of the moment.
Joining me are two very special guests.
First up, we have Dina Shanker, a reporter for Bloomberg and Bloomberg Businessweek, where she covers food, health, and the personal care business.
Welcome, Dina. And Mamrie Hart is an actor, comedian, and podcast host. Her 2015 book, You Deserve a Drink, was a New York Times bestseller.
It's a collection of drinking stories and hangover tales paired with cocktail recipes.
These days, she co -hosts the podcast, This Might Get Weird, along with her friend, Grace Helbig.
And now she has her first cookbook out called All I Think About Is Food.
Welcome, Mamrie. Henry.
Now, before we get to the spinner, let's just spend a minute and just get to know each other a little bit.
Okay. Dina, you've been covering food for many years.
Do you have a personal favorite as a food journalist, food business reporter, personal favorite story that you've covered over the years that really stuck with you?
Yeah. So I would say one of my favorite stories ever was called the curse of the honey crisp apple is about eight years old.
So it was was about how everybody loves to eat Honeycrisp, but as it turns out, farmers really hate to grow them.
And whenever I'm interviewing someone, I always end with, you know, like a—and, you know, stay in touch and let me know if you hear anything weird. And I was like, I mean, if it turns out that, like, the Honeycrisp is actually the worst. She was like, the Honeycrisp is the worst. And I was like, what?
So why? What? Basically, like, the apples of our youth, the galas, the Red Delicious, these terrible apples.
Yeah, terrible. Terrible.
So they were not bred.
It's going to shock you you to learn.
They were not bred to taste good.
They were bred to travel well and to look good.
And so the Honeycrisp was actually bred to taste good.
And so it has that thin skin that gives it that nice crunch. It's really sweet.
All those things that also make it really difficult to grow.
So the thin skin and the sweetness actually make birds really like them.
So all these growers have to put up all this netting.
And you talk to any of these apple farmers and you're chatting and And then you say like, so tell me about the honey crisp.
And at the time, they'd be like, oh, oh, the honey crisp.
Has that changed at all as far as you know?
So what's interesting is I actually saw recently Serious Eats did a story basically how like honey crisps aren't good anymore.
Sorry. Is that true?
That's my go -to apple pit.
Are you okay, Mamrie?
No. First they take the Granny Smith, now the Honey Crisp.
I'm having a hard year.
Because we did a story years ago about the Cosmic Crisp.
Are you familiar with the Cosmic Crisp?
So this was the apple they spent 20 years developing in Washington state that was supposed to be like in some ways to solve some of these problems of the Honeycrisp.
Yeah. Have you followed that at all?
How's it going? I mean, I think everybody wanted to like make the next Honeycrisp, and nobody did.
But I think actually what happened is better.
Like they made a lot of different good apples, and that's better for biodiversity, and it's better for shoppers.
And now if you buy a bag of Honeycrisp at the supermarket, it doesn't taste like the way they did 10 years ago when they were new and exciting.
But see, is that the apple's fault?
Because years ago we did an episode on Cracker Jack.
And I remember because there's debate, there's controversy.
People think there aren't as many peanuts in Cracker Jack as there used to be.
And I interviewed a guy named Ted Berg, a reporter who used to be a ballpark food vendor at the old Shea Stadium where the Mets played.
And he said to me something that always struck me.
He said, is it true that Cracker Jack is getting worse, or are we all just a little bit older and sadder?
We're definitely older and sadder, but I don't think the two are necessary.
Like, it's not mutually.
It could be both. It could be both.
We asked each of you to come equipped with one hot take.
Dina, what's your hot take for this episode?
That would be that saltless pretzels are a crime against food.
Mamrie, what's your take on this?
I love all the salt.
When I'm eating pretzels, I'm dabbing my finger.
I'm getting the coarse -grained salt from the end.
I'm leaving the table five pounds heavier.
I love a salted pretzel, but I do think the method of, I have been, I have brushed off a little salt, but here's the thing, is then everyone's happy.
Keep them salty, brush them off if you need.
That's right, then you can custom tailor it.
But if someone gave me unsalted pretzels, I would get bald.
You also need to take into account the thickness of the pretzel.
True. Is it a rod? Rod?
Right, if it's a rod, like the thins, those are very thin.
Those are too salty because they have a lot of salt and almost no pretzel interior.
Yeah. So it's about the ratio of salty exterior to pretzel interior.
It's surface area. Well, I agree that you want the right ratio, but I don't think that there's ever a time when you want one part of that ratio to be zero.
Correct. I'm with you on that.
All right, Mamrie, let's turn to you.
You have a new cookbook out.
Congratulations. It's entitled All I Think About Is Food, a vegetarian cookbook that'll keep the party going.
going what i love about this book is that it feels fancy it looks fancy the photographs are beautiful there's something that's very like sort of a luxurious upscale look and feel but then the recipes are all very accessible i'm not a trained chef but i love to cook so i'm not going to make anything that a normal everyday person couldn't make but i am going to bring the drama so you're going to have normal food at my dinner parties but i am going to show up in a caftan you know But I mean, some of the recipes that caught my eye Figs in a blanket Oh, so good Gochujang eggplant ribs Artichokes Rockefeller
Heirloom tomatoes with down -home dukkah Oh, yeah Dukkah, of course, Middle Eastern Mix of spices and nuts that I can imagine being insane It's so good And I do it with a little brown sugar, cayenne, and pecans So it feels Southern Right, I love that And you're from North Carolina Exactly That's very fitting Tell me about this one when I want to hear a bit more about the cauliflower steaks with peppercorn Bordelais.
I love a red wine reduction.
I'm cooking all the time.
My fiance eats meat, but I always want to do like a pan sauce that I can also use.
So like a good spicy peppercorn with that like red wine reduction.
It just, cauliflower steaks are kind of boring, but not if you bring a little, you know, accessory to the party.
Right. So you do, so a Bordelais typically is like one of the classic French sauces, like a red wine reduction with some kind of stock.
You just do vegetable stock?
Exactly. They've come a long way with bouillon that are vegetarian, that do give you the meat flavor.
So I utilize that in it.
And of course, it would not be very on brand if you didn't have drinks in your book as well.
We got so many cocktails.
So in this book, it's 10 vegetarian dinner parties.
So you've got the starters, the mains, the sides, and then you have cocktails with everything.
Because I love a good glass of wine.
You know, I'm a sommelier, I adore it, but I think we aren't doing enough cocktail pairing with food.
And sometimes you go out and you order something and it completely, it clashes with what you're eating.
So I pair cocktails with the food.
I love that. Tell me about this pineapple and black pepper mule.
Ooh, okay. Well, I think black pepper on top of pineapple is like an ultimate flavor combination.
It brings a little spice to what I think is an incredibly sweet fruit.
I've got served it once at a very like upscale Mexican dinner.
And I was like, oh, this is perfect.
So let's do that with ginger and let's make like a regular mule cocktail, but with little black pepper and pineapple.
And then I say, if you want to garnish it with an edible, it's now a drug mule.
By the way, let the record reflect that Mamrie has olive earrings, not the color olive, but like it's like actual cocktail olives on a spear dangling from her ears.
These were gifted to me on book tour by a reader.
I love them. I love it.
Mamrie, what's your hot take?
My hot take is as more and more grocery stores have you doing self -checkout, if you go through the motions of checking out everything, typing in your produce number, bagging it, et cetera, you should get a 10 % discount.
Hard agree. I like this in theory, but apparently some stores that switch to a lot of the self -checkout line are thinking about switching back because they're having such a big problem with theft. Right.
So I think some people are already doing this, Mamrie.
Right, well, I have talked to a friend about this and they were like, well, you know, if that one doesn't ring up, you know, I'll put it in the bag.
My theft days are over from high school, okay?
I got plenty from Abercrombie & Fitch. I'm through it.
I've worked past the guilt.
I'm not going to steal.
However, I do think it is a pain in the butt to ring up your own groceries.
Yeah. And I mean, the percentage of times that I'm able to get out there without an issue.
Exactly. Someone has to be called over.
Do you lose percentage of your discount every time you have to ask for assistance?
Absolutely not. You should gain.
You should be compensated for the extra time.
It's supposed to be a time saver.
So if I have to go, if I have to wait for the person to come over with the card because the stupid machine doesn't work.
Is it supposed to be a time saver for us or for them?
I think it's a money saver for them.
It's a money saver for them.
It's less employees.
It makes it easier.
Less people have to be on a shift at once.
And as someone who eats a lot of produce, I think that's why I'm especially annoyed with it because you are having to do the way.
It's not just swipe, swipe, swipe.
You know, you're having to plug in every little thing.
So I need a little reward. I've never told anybody this, but I did once forget to ring up my ginger knob and I got back to the car and I was like, Oh my.
Is that a siren I hear?
All right, I think we're all warmed up.
Should we spin the spinner?
Spin it up. This is very exciting, because this is the first time we've done a salad spinner with a salad spinner present.
Normally, when we record these, we just say, spin the spinner.
And then later on in post, our engineer, Jared O 'Connell, inserts a sound effect of his personal salad spinner, which he recorded in his house.
And yes, for folks listening at home, we have miked the salad spinner.
So, Deena, would you like to do the honors?
Would you like to spin the spinner and get us started here?
All right. Very nice.
All my money on black.
Is that sounding good in the control room?
Let's get into some news here.
The Wall Street Journal reports that Americans are tipping less at restaurants than they have in at least six years.
This trend is driven by fatigue over rise in prices and more of those touchscreen prompts for tips at places where tips didn't used to be expected.
infected now the journal made a quiz so the three of us are going to take this quiz right now okay now it's multiple choice for each one it's how much do you tip in each of these scenarios the choices are none 15 20 or 25 so 0 15 20 or 25 ready you get bottled water at an airport concession stand how much do you tip zero zero says dina mamrie i'll punch in a dollar So you go custom?
I'll go custom. All right, okay, all right.
98 % said none. You get two cappuccinos and a muffin to go at a counter.
How much do you tip, Mamrie?
20%. Dina? Oh, gosh.
I don't know, like 15 % because I feel bad.
But really, you shouldn't have to.
Well, actually, I guess the cappuccinos are a prepared item.
This is a tough one.
I would probably do either 15 % or $1.
back before we paid for everything with credit cards, you would have given someone the cash they would have given you back cash and coins and you would put the coins in the tip jar and keep the cash maybe if it was especially a lot or especially good service, you'd put a couple dollar bills in but mostly it would be just the coins so the two cappuccinos and a muffin to go, 55 % of people said they would not tip 36 % of people said 15 % and it was very few you and the others.
Well, here's my question too.
There's so many variables.
Is this your neighborhood coffee shop and you know you're going every day and you love the staff and they really nail it for you?
Or is this a Starbucks at JFK?
I got into a disagreement with my wife.
We went, we were in the mall with our kids.
We went for boba tea.
The kids and my wife each got a boba tea.
A boba tea is like $8 a piece.
They got these big boba teas.
So it rings up, it's like $25.
Now it takes 18 seconds to make a boba tea.
It comes out of a machine.
The bill, the thing comes up and it says 15 20 or 25 percent and i just typed in two dollars you went custom i think is right i went custom and my wife was upset that i didn't do 20 on 25 so she wanted me to give a five dollar tip for three boba teas that seems like a lot to me i'm on i'm on your side what if that boba tea had vodka in it then once alcohol is involved just because it takes two seconds and and it's a highball drink with two ingredients, you're still expected to tip because of the buzz.
So is there not a difference for regular beverages?
I have no argument, no skin in the game on this one.
But I feel like there was a time when it was like, and I say this from when I was a bartender back in college, that like the tip was like a dollar a drink.
For sure. And then I recently was like doing some tipping at a bar, and I was like, what the fuck is the tip now?
I don't even know. But Mamrie, you hit on a good point, which is I think there is a difference between a person making boba tea at the mall and a person mixing a drink which is that the minimum wage is different for those two jobs so the person in New York state if you're making boba tea at the mall you're getting $15 an hour maybe more I mean $15 but with inflation so many businesses have had such trouble keeping people they might be paying $18 an hour a bartender doesn't get $18 an hour because they're a tipped employee they have a lower minimum wage so I do think it's a different calculation once
you add alcohol no that is a great point And also because if you are with a cocktail and they're sitting down with their $15 drink, you as a bartender are entertaining them.
Also true. Or possibly having to engage in conversation.
It's another part of the tip factor as opposed to just grab and go.
Right. Yeah. Okay, let's keep the poll going.
You have a sit -down meal at a restaurant with a bottle of wine.
What percentage do you tip?
I mean, assuming everything was good and normal, like 25%.
25 %? 20 to 25. Yeah.
Yeah. 74 % of people said 20%.
That was the overwhelming winner.
A few said 15%. A few said 25%.
I think 20 % is the new 15%, right?
It's the minimum. Yeah.
Next one. You have a sit -down meal at a nice restaurant, but the service is bad.
Oh. Okay. Zero, 15, 20, or 25?
20. 20. Yeah. See, I have trouble going below.
I mean, I waited tables.
It's very hard for me to go below 20%.
Yeah. Like, if it's really bad, maybe I would do, like, 18.
Right, right, right, right.
I think there was one time in my life where I didn't leave a tip because the server was, like, egregiously mean.
Almost abusive. Like I felt like I was being attacked.
And that was the one time in my life.
We're going to get into some nuance here.
You have a sit -down meal at a restaurant and the bill includes a credit card charge.
So, you know, a lot of places now, they say the prices in the menu are for cash.
And when you pay with a credit card, they add 3 or 3 .5 percent because they're paying a credit card fee to the credit card company.
so if you have a sit down meal at a restaurant and the bill is charging you extra for using a credit card does it affect your tip and if so how much no it doesn't i generally wouldn't affect my tip either but i was surprised to see that it in this poll it had a major effect remember with good service standard meal out restaurant three quarters of people said 20 but when you add in the credit card fee, it was basically split half and half between 15 % and 20%.
Oh, wow. So a huge portion of people, roughly 30 % of people shifted down their tip to account for the credit card charge, which does not go to the server.
Yeah. This is just why tipping is a terrible system.
All right. Should we spin the spinner again?
Sure. Mamrie, you're up.
Okay. Well done. Sorry.
I like the two -handed press.
I went full cartoon dynamite Alright, next news story, RFK Jr.'s Make America Healthy Again crusade, also known as MAHA, continues to make waves in the food world.
Dina, you wrote a piece for Bloomberg entitled, Why Fast Food Could Be MAHA's Next Target I want to talk about that, but I do want to say because you make this point in your article some of the things that he's proposing actually do have the backing of health experts.
A lot of what what RFK says on food comes from a long line of people that have been saying the same thing, but just less loudly or maybe to the wrong audience.
I don't know. And are those people like respected experts?
Well, well -respected experts.
I mean, if we like, if we were talking about like the, the big one is of course the food dyes, the only people out there that are like defending food dyes are people that make money off of products with food dyes in them.
And so they have been been attacked by consumer advocates, health advocates.
I mean, like nutritionists, everyone agrees that the food dyes are bad.
Listen, I have absolutely zero political opinions myself as a journalist. So I know a lot of people want to just make a joke out of something because RFK is the one saying it, but a lot of what he says has a fair amount of scientific backing.
Right. Let's talk a bit more about the food dyes because you bring that one up.
Let's talk about about that first so um the opening line of the piece is if a potato chip isn't bright red will people know it's spicy but that is a lot like we've been conditioned to make observations about a food based on its color and that's part of the eating experience so like so where are we at with this because this goes back to before the trump administration right biden under his administration actually outlawed one of the red dyes yeah so uh biden's fda put a ban on red three effective 2027 and that was a big one um but there's a whole bunch of other dyes out there um the ones that are not banned
are the ones that you would find like in your box of Froot Loops is the big example um the dyes make things look more attractive um they certainly attract children I mean red is associated with with something being hot um so if you look at like the flaming hot hot lays compared to like the new Simply Ruffles, right?
Yeah, PepsiCo Frito Lay just got to the end of a year long effort to launch Simply Ruffles Hot and Spicy, which is a version of the famous Ruffles Flamin' Hots, but with no artificial colors or flavors.
The resulting chips just at shelves in March. They're not flaming red.
They're orangish and speckled with spices.
But as you write in your piece placed next to the Ruffles Flamin' Hots, you say that the new ones are sort of a little more beige.
I had to go out and buy, like, original plain lays to compare to the Simply hot and spicy ruffles because I was like, are these the same?
And they weren't exactly the same.
They were more orangey.
But compared to the Flamin' Hots, like, they're practically colorless.
So if everyone says the dyes are so bad, why didn't Biden ban more of them?
Yeah, how many are there?
They banned number three.
Is this, like, Pantone colors?
What are we looking at?
So I think there are six commonly used other dyes.
REDD3 has, there are studies that showed that it caused cancer in rats.
There's a specific law that requires the FDA to ban anything that might cause cancer.
So that had a specific, and there was a petition filed with the FDA and the FDA granted it and it was specific to REDD3.
So the other dyes were not impacted by that.
The other dyes, the real concern there is that they may lead to hyperactivity like ADHD and associated issues in some children.
And so, you know, the industry says they're safe.
The food industry, the beverage industry, the dyes industry, they all say they're safe.
But at the same time, the push against dyes has been building for as long as I've been a food reporter and they're taking them out.
So another issue that RFK Jr. and Maha, this movement, which seems to have a little bit of less scientific backing, Dina, is to replace seed oils with beef tallow.
Yeah. RFK tweeted a little while back, make frying oil tallow again.
God, that's stupid.
Enough with the merch. First off, Dina, is beef tallow actually any better for you than vegetable oil or seed oils?
You know, nutrition science changes, so I don't like to say anything with any certainty, but the non -Maha -associated nutrition scientists that I've asked about this, they're not happy about the takeoff of this movement because there's actually a fair amount of research showing that vegetable oils are better for you when you substitute them in for animal fats.
fats and so all of this anti -seed oil fervor um i mean i spoke to um one who was he doesn't want people you know not having the salad because they're worried about the canola oil on the salad dressing and right if you're like i'm gonna skip the salad because it has seed oil on it yeah and i'll still get the french fries cooked in beef because i want to be healthy right yeah you're right you're really in trouble although i have to say since mamrie um is a vegetarian and wrote a vegetarian cookbook, I will say that one thing that nobody really talks about in this tallow debate is think of the vegetarian.
Thank you. Think of the one thing I can eat at a fast food restaurant has now ripped away from me.
The French fry. The French fry raised me.
I would not be here without the French fry growing up in rural North Carolina.
So all of a sudden I can't do French French fries.
That's a gasp worthy thought.
And we should say, which we covered this briefly on a previous episode, but it's worth repeating that the evidence that seed oils are bad for you is dubious at best, at least as we sit here today.
All right, we're going to take a short break.
When we come back, my guests and I will weigh in on a new trend in cocktails and another new trend in bagel eating.
That's coming up. Stick around.
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Welcome back to The Sporkful.
I'm Dan Rashman. Last week on the show, we heard the story of the man who revolutionized the tequila industry, the one and only Jose Cuervo.
Yes, he was a real guy.
And in the early 1900s, he navigated bloody business rivalries and cozied up to a dictator to build his empire.
It was all going great until the revolution.
When revolutionaries raid his distillery, Jose Cuervo has to run for his life.
He's afraid that spies are watching, and so he hops from rooftop to rooftop, all down the block, you know, takes the gutter pipe down to the street level and makes his way to a nephew's home where he borrows his horse and rides out into the countryside.
That's Ted Genovese, a journalist and author who has an epic new book out all about Jose Cuervo, the tequila industry, and a lot of the history of Mexico.
I really enjoyed my conversation with Ted.
Hear the story of Jose Cuervo in last week's show.
All right, we are back with Bloomberg reporter Dina Shanker and comedian, actor, and author Mamrie Hart, whose new cookbook is All I Think About Is Food.
And we're live here at Sirius XM Studios in New York City.
Thank you all so much for being here.
Okay, Dina, you're up.
Your turn to spin the spinner.
All right, I'm going to do it really nicely this time.
Okay, I thought you did it well the first time, but that was a very dainty spin.
That's how people always describe me.
It's for like an arugula.
Our next story is about rip and dip bagels.
Have you been following this trend, either of you?
Just via Instagram, just via my algorithm of what's cool and trendy in New York.
So a bagel shop called Pop -Up Bagels, which started in Connecticut, so you know, but it's now opened up some shops in New York.
They've been promoting a unique way of eating bagels called the rip and dip.
The owner says he saw his customers in Connecticut doing this technique where they grab a bagel, tear off a piece, and dip it into the cream cheese.
The owner decided to lean into the trend.
He started posting on social media.
He even trademarked the phrase grip, rip, and dip, which may not bode so well for other bagel shops in Seattle, San Francisco, and L .A.
who are also promoting the rip and dip.
They're about to get a cease and desist letter, I think.
So, Mamrie, what's your take on this trend?
My take is this is a great trend because that's how I would eat a bagel.
Because the fact is, if you are a person who wants a lot of the cream cheese, et cetera, or to dip, if you have that much on the bagel itself, It's naturally going to do the squeeze out.
You know, you're naturally, it's going to come off.
And then you're just going to end up going to the rip and dip method anyway.
So you might as well start with that.
I'm a big dip person, big chip person.
So any way I can do that form in other foods, I'm in.
Dina, thoughts? Well, I think, is the bagel good?
That's all that matters here, is the bagel good?
If the bagel's good, eat it however you want.
And if it's not, then don't, you know, like buy a dozen of them just so you can throw them in the compost. Not that we've done that in my house.
I like this in theory because I, like you made me, I love dipping because I feel like it just gives you a lot of control over how much of the condiment you're going to get in each bite.
Where is it going to be in relation to the rest of the things you're dipping?
And you can vary from one bite to the next.
So there's a lot of reasons.
When I eat a burger or a hot dog, I will always dip.
I never apply condiment directly to a burger or a hot dog.
I put the ketchup and mustard. I mix them together in a little puddle on the side of the plate.
And then I dip on a per bite basis.
A mix. Yes. I'm impressed.
rest i i do think there is something about you can have variation so like maybe you want to try some different dips so if you have a bagel and you're like well i would like to try a couple different cream cheeses but they would not go well together stacked right i'm all i want a little sauce buffet yeah with every meal that's an advantage i hadn't even thought of but but you make a good point dina which is that i'm worried what worries me about this trend is that i feel It's like it's another bagel -related trend that's going to allow shitty bagels to go unchecked.
And, like, the cream cheese is good, so maybe, like, you don't care if the bagel is.
Well, also, if you're really going to do a big, deep dip, you're getting, like, a tablespoon of cream cheese in each bite.
Talk about a bad ratio.
Right, that's a bad ratio, and it's also, like, you're disrespecting the bagel.
100%. But this is America.
And if I want that much, I should be given that option.
Dip less. Listen, it's not how I would choose to eat a bagel.
Right. I don't really want to actually, now that I think about it, see someone eat a rip and dip bagel.
It probably looks unseemly.
Yeah. In the privacy of their own home.
I mean, don't do that on a subway.
Oh, God, no. Can't eat anything on a subway.
It's easier said than done.
So I think it sounds like we're on board with the rip and dip technique, but not if it's being used as a way to conceal subpar bagels by drowning them in cream cheese.
Yep. Can I have a turn to spin the spinner?
Yeah, I'd love for that.
I didn't get to spin it yet.
Let me give it a try.
How'd it feel? It felt good, yeah.
Next time, maybe I'll stand up.
I didn't stand up. I feel like I didn't have good leverage.
You got to try the two -hand technique.
Next up, from the spinner, the rise of functional sodas, which that name needs a rebrand.
These are sodas that purport to serve a function beyond hydration, typically a health function.
The best -known ones are Poppy and Olipop.
Recently, the news broke that PepsiCo is buying Poppy for nearly $2 billion, with a B, $2 billion.
Olipop just got valued at $1 .85 billion.
Dina, you've covered this for Bloomberg.
What's going on here?
Well, not only have I covered it, I broke that Pepsi -Poppy news.
Whoa! Superstar journalist in the house.
Thank you, thank you.
I had some help from other reporters.
it was mostly you though yeah um anyway so basically these are uh the new sodas and there's a million of them that includes some that have already gone out of business but um there's a whole bunch of them basically their big claim is um zero or less sugar um which zero or less oh sorry less yes your own negative sugar actually sucks the sugar from your body or less than standard soda right right so low sugar low sugar or no sugar low sugar or no sugar and then often they'll claim like that they're good for your gut bacteria or I mean it kind of sort of like vague categories but like there's some
that will make you feel nice like mentally like not exactly high but just like better ashwagandha Mamrie, have you had these?
I've had a couple. I mean, the fact, I'm not really like a diet soda drinker to begin with.
I'm a seltzer girl.
So, I don't really understand the appeal.
It also became so popular that I wanted to not be into it.
You know what I mean?
Like, it was too cool that I was like, it's too TikTok for me.
We actually covered Olipop a bit in an episode about the competition for shelf space in grocery stores.
What we heard was typically, you know, there's only so much shelf space.
You got to kick out one beverage to make room for a new one.
And the beverages that most often were getting kicked out to make room for these new sodas were kombuchas.
Now, just a few years ago, I would not have thought someone crazy if they predicted that soon kombucha will overtake Coca -Cola.
And now it's passé.
So what do you think is the future of these beverages?
Are they going to go the way of kombucha?
Or are they going to enter the pantheon of mainstream beverages?
I feel like the beverage category is just like a constant churn.
And there's like always new stuff coming in and old stuff going out.
And like these new sodas are in some ways like aren't so different from kombucha.
Everyone I spoke to was like, this category is just getting started.
So people in the category, people outside the category.
And I was just like, really?
really? I was like, wow.
I don't, I mean, I drank a lot of these things to write this story.
And I was like, I didn't feel so good.
I think it's, I feel like though, I feel like it's a little hand in hand with just the fact that Gen Z is way less into alcohol.
Yeah. So then this becomes their liquid treat as opposed to end of the night.
You know, if I'm making myself a nightcap, they're making themselves a poppy soda with magnesium and a little tart cherry juice and it becomes their ritual of mocktail and drink and like how to do something fun in a glass since it's a it's just a lower abv generation my kids love poppy my question is are these drinks soda they like calling it a soda because it makes it feel like a less junk foodie version of a beloved beverage so it's smart for them but like there's other kinds There's all kinds of carbonated beverages besides soda.
Why is this not like a flavored, a different kind of flavored seltzer?
Where is the line between flavored seltzer and soda?
That is what I'm asking.
And right now I think it's the price and the marketing.
So that's the only clear difference I see.
I think the real big difference is that most seltzer, if it has like a flavor, it's like a squeeze of lime or something, but it really tastes like seltzer.
whereas a poppy tastes like a soda.
It doesn't taste like your Pepsi but it tastes closer to your - If you talk about like a Spindrift - A Spindrift is not a - Well, but a Spindrift has fruit.
It's a seltzer but it has fruit juice in it.
It has actual juice in it.
So it's not just natural flavors.
It has a squeeze of juice.
Right. So like on the spectrum you have like unflavored seltzer and then you have like Coke at the opposite end.
Okay, and then if you move, you have flavored seltzer, moves a little bit, and then from there you have, like, a Spindrift that has fruit juice in it.
And then somewhere in between Coca -Cola and Spindrift are these things, but are they sodas or are they flavored seltzers?
And it's getting blurry, too, because now I saw a liquid death that's root beer flavored.
So it's root beer flavored seltzer.
So where are we? So, you know, are we going to have Diet Dr. Pepper seltzer?
so it's not soda but it's soda flavored seltzer it's just getting really blurry on like what's on trend right now that's probably happening honestly I'd buy a case right now I just want to cite one line from your piece Dina which I especially loved because you talk about the price that these quote unquote functional sodas are substantially more expensive than classic sodas and you write in that way modern soda has earned a place in the little treat economy in which millennials and Gen Z's micro -dose affordable indulgences to salve the generational pain of dead -end jobs and immiserating rents.
I know, it's so sad.
So on that happy note, enjoy your functional sodas.
All right, should we spin the spinner one more time?
Yeah. Let's all three spin it together.
Oh my gosh. One, two, three, go.
Best one yet. All right, we're going to finish up here Here with a restaurant news lightning round.
Okay, which doesn't have to be that fast. We're not in a rush, but you look stressed, Mamrie.
We consider putting a clock into this.
And I said, well, let's not get too carried away.
This is all restaurant trends.
I'm going to set up a story.
You tell me your reaction.
First up, there's a new trend of tiny cocktails in bars and restaurants.
Mamrie, you are nodding.
And as a person who has, who built her career on a YouTube channel channel uh called you deserve a drink and a cookbook and memoir of the cake or a recipe book and memoir like with the same title i'm gonna turn to you first but let me just explain these are like smaller format martinis three sip manhattans something they sometimes call snackeries get it oh instead of daiquiris um bar directors say people love these little cocktails because you can have more variety you can order a couple over the course of a night without getting too drunk um they're cute uh and some people just like drinking
out of tiny glasses Mamrie, what's your take on the tiny cocktail trend?
I am absolutely behind this trend.
I love it. I had not experienced it until three nights ago in Austin.
I went to Teddy's and got a tiny teeny.
And I loved it for so many reasons.
Why isn't it called a teeny teeny?
Maybe I read it wrong.
And I was sober. I love it because, as they say, martinis are like breasts.
One is too few, three are too many.
So you get a little bit of variety.
Sometimes you just want to kick it off and you get off a hard day work and you're like, I want that one, bang.
And then I want some variety of different drinks.
And also because just your martini getting warm.
And unless you're going to an establishment like the Hillstone Group, which I'm a big fan of, which will bring you a fresh cold martini glass to put the remnants of your current one into.
Wow. Yeah, big fan, 25 % tip on that.
Yeah, there we go. It's incredible.
I am going to leisurely sip a martini for a while And the dregs are going to be too warm So a tiny teeny You're getting a cold pour every time Full support of this trend Dina, thoughts?
Well, I just think this is cocktail shrinkflation And I want my whole cocktail But it's half price Well, from what I've seen It's usually not quite half, is it?
I think the price per ounce of drink is probably higher I just can't remember the last time I was ever like You know what I really want is a small cocktail no but I'm going to achieve the same amount of volume but what it would be is sometimes I don't want you know 10 ounces of gin but a little like four ouncer and then I move on to wine it just feels like less of a commitment maybe it's commitment issues should we ask your fiance who's in the audience I love you so much Morgan love them I will say I'm all for the tiny cocktail partly maybe the variety like you're saying Mamie but actually Dina I
do sometimes think like I wish I wish I could have half a drink right now.
It's pretty like when you sit down at a restaurant and your stomach is empty.
That's the best time for a big drink.
Well, for a good 15 minutes.
It's a lot of fun. But like if I drink a whole cocktail on an empty stomach and then eat a big meal, I need to go to bed.
Like the night's over.
That's a great night.
Everything I just described, that was like 35 minutes.
I'd like to also see my friends while I'm out.
Like I'd like to have a conversation.
so the idea of like a tiny cocktail eat a little bit of food have another tiny cocktail or like sometimes i'm in the mood for a beer but like if i'm in a good restaurant and i want to save stomach space for food i don't want to get filled up on beer and carbonation but i'm in the mood for a beer i would love like in europe they often have like the 0 .3 liter or the 0 .5 liter of beer i love a 0 .3 liter because it's like a little taste of beer but not too filling next up on our restaurant News Lightning Round.
Restaurants are increasingly finding ways to tell diners that they have limited time at their table.
Some of you may have noticed this.
You make a reservation and it pops up for parties of two.
It seems like the industry standard from what I've seen.
Parties of two, 90 minutes.
Parties of four or more, two hours.
Some waiters have started saying, you know, we're going to need this table back shortly or even tell people as they're seated that they have a time limit.
Dina, you're shaking your head no. What are your thoughts on this trend?
I just think hospitality is a lost art, and that that's what makes dining out so great is when, like, you really feel like you're being taken care of, and if somebody's rushing you, the second you— It's like when I went shopping with my mom in high school, and we'd get there, and she'd be like, okay, you have 45 minutes.
And I'd be like, okay, well— So nothing feels like it looks as good on you because you're rushing.
Or everything looks amazing in the store, and you're going to get it all, and then you get home, and you're like, shit.
Yeah. Right. Mamrie, thoughts on this trend?
I mean, it's double -edged, right?
Because as a former server, you're like, you've had those people camp out.
And they're not ordering anything else.
And they are standing between you and getting to a birthday party.
And they're not spending another dollar.
So I see how that works.
And also, if they sit at that table for long enough, you miss another turn.
Another turn. So that table doesn't get seated again during the rush.
Right. And then by the time they leave, there's no one else coming in.
and that one less table could be $50.
If you're at a nice restaurant, $50 less.
Exactly. So I'm glad they had a great time, but like it put less money in my pocket.
However, those people are assholes.
Yeah, absolutely. And they should have like 30 line item fees on their bill.
I was just going to say, maybe there is a post if you go over the timing, that's the fee you get.
They're going to start charging you rent for your table.
Exactly. I will say, if you're going to tell me that I need to move, and I think hearing it as soon as you sit down is very tough, but I feel like if you are going to have to leave they should have another option of where you should go because like if I am at a restaurant and they're like we're going to need this table back feel free to have another round like treat me to another round at the bar and I'll get up in two seconds you know there needs to be a progression if you're going to make people leave hospitality exactly hospitality right but Dina at first you said hospitality but then you said
the people who camp out of the table that Mamrie talked about are assholes So where's the middle line between people who deserve hospitality and assholes?
Well, I think that we should live in a decent society where people – there's an unspoken agreement that the restaurant is there to serve you and you as a human being and customer are going to treat the place and the people there with respect and dignity.
And that means not lingering at a table for a half hour.
And I just want to throw in, Mom, thank you so much for all those times you took me shopping.
Final restaurant news topic.
Is the restaurant good or does it just look good?
The New York Times says more restaurants are prioritizing the vibes over the food, spending more money and time making the space appealing to people's Instagram feeds with bespoke wallpaper, branded t -shirts and hats, and bright colors everywhere.
Restaurant owners say that diners these days care as much or more about ambiance and branding as they do about the food.
I think that's an Instagram problem.
I think that's if you're making reservations so you know you can post something in your Instagram feed, then you don't care as much as the feed itself.
Yeah, it's feed versus feed.
Right, right. Get your feed straight.
Exactly. But I think Vibe is great, but it should never come at the expense of the food.
Yeah, hard agree. And if the Vibe is too good, they're going to camp out at the table.
It all goes together.
I also, I think that But there's the intentional part of this that some restaurant owners clearly from this article are saying, we're going to focus on the vibe.
That's our priority.
But I think that there's something else that happens, which is when a place – I feel like maybe this is more a situation where a restaurant is in a prime piece of real estate, like a waterfront restaurant.
Those restaurants are often disappointing because they don't have to have great food because people will go there for the view.
and so I'm always very skeptical of restaurants in beautiful settings but like they're sort of I don't know Dina like is there an economic pressure thing that happens like basically if if you have a great view or great vibes in your restaurant and Pete and you know people are coming for that then you aren't under the same pressure to make great food I think I feel like for there was a while when you would talk to uh different restaurant owners and they were just like, oh, Instagram or, oh, Yelp.
There was always like some online thing that was making their business harder.
And then some places adjust and they do well and some don't.
The article ended on a really interesting quote.
It said they have to have either like vibe, food or service.
You need two. You don't need all three.
And so if you have vibe and I mean, I can't just who wants a restaurant with bad food.
All right, well, thanks to my guest, Dina Shanker, is a reporter for Bloomberg and Bloomberg Businessweek and Mamrie Hart is a comedian, actor, author and podcaster.
Her new book is All I Think About is Food.
Thank you very much, Dina and Mamrie.
Thank you. Thank you.
And thank you very much to all of you here at SiriusXM Studios who came out.
Thank you all. Good night.
Woo! Well, hey, let's just, The show's still going, did you guys realize?
Next week on the show is the jalapeno losing its heat.
We look into it. While you wait for that one, check out last week's show about the rise of Jose Cuervo and the tequila wars that took place during the Mexican Revolution.
All right, now you can cheer.
And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app?
Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad -free music channels curated by genre and era, Plus live sports coverage.
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This episode was produced by me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern and senior producer Andres O 'Hara and producer Manolo Morales.
Our engineer is Jared O 'Connell.
Music help from Black Label Music.
The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios.
Our executive producer is Camille Stanley.
Until next time, I'm Dan Paschke.
And I'm David from Buffalo, New York, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co -host Woody Harrelson.
It's called Where Everybody Knows Your Name and we're back for another season.
I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more.
You don't want to miss it.
Listen to Where Everybody Knows Your Name with me, Ted Danson, and Woody Harrelson, sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts.
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