Ted Audio Collective
Welcome everyone you're listening to after hours and Felix I'm here and I am Sarah Green Carmichael from Bloomberg
Sarah's back. Welcome back Sarah. It's great to have you. Oh, it's so wonderful to be back with you guys
You know Felix I don't know if I told you this but one of Sarah's epic recommendations from last time was her
Walking habit in England including in the lake district. Oh, I remember all the peaks, right? Yeah, this summer
I was in the lake district was on a lovely walk and I took a picture of what I thought was a pretty random landscape
Okay, and I texted it to her and she immediately
identified no exactly where I was very impressive Sarah
That's one of my favorite games to play is what's that fell?
Can you tell what the mountain is just from the picture?
I was so delighted that you got to go there me here. It was great and well worth your recommendation
Absolutely, it was fantastic. It was a really unusual peak or just you recognize everything in the lake district
Every peak is a special unique mountain. They're like snowflakes each one's different
Right, I think I heard that before doesn't really help me to identify places. That's why you have Google images, right?
That's right. Yes, I know you love it
For the mere mortals who are not Sarah Green Carmichael Google images does the trick. Yeah, we'll help you every time
And we have topics. What did you bring for us?
Something I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on is this emergence of music as an asset class
I'm sure you guys have been watching the headlines of different artists selling the rights to their catalog
It also seems like maybe there's a bit of a backlash or that some of these catalogs may have been overvalued
So we can get into that and we can talk a little bit about why this might be an attractive or not asset class for this particular moment
That sounds great
And of course we should be thinking about the after hours catalog. Oh
Oh, goody-moan
I think
I'm sure it would sell for a lot more than Bruce brings
Yeah, and feelings what did you bring? I would like to talk about brokerage fees and
And not only because it's always fun to talk about real estate and conversations are never ending
But also because there was this lawsuit a big decision that I think at least has the potential to really change
How real estate is spot and sold in the United States and I'd love to get your take great
Okay, so before we get into music and Taylor Swift and Bruce brings Dean and all of that let's talk about brokerage fees
Felix give us a little bit of background here. What's interesting to you about this?
That was a very convincing promotion of the topping
But yes, I do think it's very interesting
So as you might have seen last week a federal jury awarded a huge award
Claiming essentially that the national association of realtors and some other large brokerages conspired
To keep the fees for buying and selling real estate artificially high
It's almost two billion dollars in damages and since it's an antitrust suit
They could potentially be tripled so that award alone is eye popping and then that's surprisingly there are many lawsuits like that
New ones like I filed right after the verdict came out
But also somewhere in the background there's any trust activity brewing looking into this market and there are a few peculiarities that are really interesting and really unusual
The first is maybe that the percentage of what buyers and tellers typically pay
Doesn't really vary by the value of the house when you think about it. It's already very unusual
It's so it's typically five to six percent or so and maybe your house is a multi-million dollar house or maybe your house is more
Typical in the hundreds of thousands. It's always the same fee the fee doesn't vary over time
So right now where the market is very tight. There's almost nothing to buy
You would think that that would have an influence and that doesn't really happen
And then maybe most importantly the fees in the US are just also high in international comparison
I think Hong Kong is maybe one of the least expensive markets that I've seen is less than two percent
But even in the UK it's typically between one and two percent right and so the question is how does it actually work?
And there's a couple of things that I think are really interesting a first observation is that
nominally on paper
It's the seller that pays the fee and then the fee gets split between the sellers agent and the buyers agent
But you might remember from your introductory economics class
What you normally do doesn't really matter that much because the incidence is essentially determined by how tight is the market
Is it mostly a seller's market is it mostly a buyer's market and how we do it nominally doesn't really have that big an influence right and the question is
How is it enforced?
How is it that everybody seems to do it and there the interesting research finding is that
if you try to sell a place and say
Somehow you're a negotiation genius and you negotiate a much lower fee with your agent you can list the property in one of these multiple listing services
But the buyers agents will essentially steer their clients away from your property
What I'm curious about is now that this arrangement seems under attack
Maybe we'll go away. Maybe we'll knock away. We don't quite know yet
For sure the NAR will appeal the decision and to knows exactly what happens in the legal process
But what's your sense if it did go away the formal arrangement that essentially forces real estate agents to follow these rules
What would we see would it be a completely different market?
I mean, I think a lot of aspects of the home buying market would be transformed
Okay, one of the reasons I think that this market has stayed the same for a long time even with the entrance of
Zillow and Redfin and some of these online platforms that should disintermediate the interactions but have not
Is in part because there's lots of regulation and red tape and forms to fill out and it's very opaque and mortgages involved and
Inspections, but also just because most people don't buy houses a lot
Yeah, it's sort of like planning a wedding you do it once maybe a couple of times
Maybe three times, but most people are not doing this a lot so they're not getting good at it
And so that enables someone to come in and say look hey, I'm a middleman. Yes, you have to pay me
But I'll hold your hand through the process and you kind of come away with the sense that
Well, maybe I could have done that myself
Especially if you're dealing with someone who's maybe not communicating to you what their value is that they're adding because I do think some realtors do add a lot of value
But I think if you change the fee structure of how all this works
You could potentially have realtors paid by the hour for example, which for a buyer might be
Actually a much better deal because in theory the buyer is not paying the fee but in reality the buyer is paying the fee because
For one thing if it's a percent of the sale price then the buyer's agent gets paid more when the sale price is higher
So then again the agent has a sort of interest in working against their clients interest
So I think this enables a lot more experimentation
It's probably very scary for real estate agents, but very encouraging for home buyers and sellers
I totally agree Sarah in a way it's fantastic news and it's kind of remarkable news
That this has gone on for so long and that it's finally been broken there are a couple of pieces of the story that I love by the way the first is
Two of the brokers remax and anywhere
settled right before this massive decision
And it makes you just realize sometimes settling is not that bad
And then of course now there are a host of lawsuits
Felix as you mentioned which total up to something like 40 billion dollars
So things are going to change and then finally
I love the fact that at the heart of it is this organization that we normally don't think about which is
This not-for-profit trade association the national association of realtors
Which is in some sense the heart of how this all works and they're being held responsible
And they appear to be an organization that has some cultural issues more generally
So it's really interesting to see them targeted
I think it's wonderful
Primarily because think about what a 6% transaction cost does to mobility and
To me the big thing here is
If we have this huge transaction cost people adjust our not as mobile and they're getting locked into situations
They shouldn't be locked into and that has very significant welfare effects
So for example Americans move much less than they used to move and once you free up 6% of a
400,000-dollar house it can change the calculus of when and how you sell
So I think it's not just something that'll change maybe the housing market
But if fees come down to levels that are more common in the rest of the world
I think we can see mobility in a way we haven't seen before
So I just think this is a wonderful moment in a way
And I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with it. What do you make of it Felix?
I agree with both of your observations
And then I wanted to emphasize also it might make the job of realtors much more meaningful at one at the same time
I don't know that's a little counterintuitive because you think oh my god, they get paid so much money
Maybe sometimes for a sale that happens quite quickly. How can it possibly be good for them?
But the interesting observation is because it's a fixed percentage of the sales price
You get much better paid in markets that have high housing prices
There's this famous study comparing Minneapolis and Boston and Boston housing prices are much higher
And as a result these compensations are much higher and then guess what happens
You get massive entry you get many more realtors that fight for these really attractive deals
And as a result the number of transactions that you can actually engineer go way down
You're much less productive and really in a fascinating turn how much money you make is almost the same
So it's one of these peculiar markets where there's almost a fixed pie
That can be spread among few realtors or it can be spread among many many many people
Which typically happens in the high price markets
But it's really talented smart people who could be doing something different
But in the end waste a lot of time
Lure it sometimes by
What looks like an amazing job and maybe HGTV is not helping to this way people from going into this industry
But generally speaking in particular if you enter in a high price market
It's actually a bad idea
We're wasting people's talent we're wasting people's time
And so lower fees will be better in that sense as well
I think that's exactly right Felix and it's hard to appreciate that the misallocation of talent could be a big deal
And people think brokers are getting rich off these schemes
But if in fact entry is costless as you point out Felix then the story is quite different
The other part of the story that I love and I just want to give voice to a very I think unpopular opinion
Which is it's interesting to see a lawsuit drive change
And I don't think we appreciate enough
How lawsuits can actually affect your eight change
So we think about technology as driving change we think about corporations as driving change
But lawsuits and well-defined lawsuits would just change the world
This is I think going to be an example of that
And so it's just a useful reminder that sometimes the way the world changes
As much as we like to ridicule people who are filing lawsuits
There is a side to that piece of the puzzle which is more interesting and socially constructive than I think we usually give credit to
That's a great point
And we've seen this elsewhere. Yeah think about what happened to travel agents
Exactly the commissions used to be super super lucrative have gone away
Think about financial markets where commissions and transactions fees have really come down
Which helped democratization of financial markets
Trading in particular with sometimes positive effects and sometimes effects that we worry about a little bit
But all in all
Making intermediation
Not quite as attractive not quite as monopolistic as it is and many of the markets that we worry about
Mostly good news for everyone involved
I think that's right. I think it'll be a difficult transition for a lot of people who've been working as realtors
Yeah, and I think there's a little bit of a warning here for anyone who works as a kind of intermediator or agent or
Someone who works based on commission because I think
This really puts pressure on you to show the value that you do bring because I do think that these people can bring enormous value
I'm not so saying that because I'm as an editor kind of middleman
An editor who takes an author's work and then brings it to the public
I think that when a realtor is working with a client
They're going to have to work a lot harder to sit down with them talk through the strategy give really good advice on like here
The comps. I've done this research. Here's how we're going to sell your house
You know as opposed to kind of just taking their calls
So I think there's maybe a tough road there for some realtors
But also a warning sign for other people in similar types of fields who get paid the same way
I think that sounds exactly right Sarah and there are international changes that actually speak to the story that you tell
In Germany interestingly in
2020 or 2021 I forgot exactly when they shifted the fees from buyers to sellers
And so you see one of the main reactions is that now many sellers then decide to go without a broker
And that I think is the biggest question to me whether
The intermediation truly creates value as you pointed out Sarah
I really end up with a better house. I feel more comfortable
Because I don't do it very often. I'm not very good at choosing the right place for me
Or is it the case that maybe Zillow is a pretty good substitute for what a broker can do for me
In which case I think we would see the industry shrink quite dramatically
But it's one of these good moments
I think either way because if there's true value creation the profession will exist
It's also not the case that travel agents have completely disappeared
Right because some of these people do something that's really valuable. That's really great
How much value is really created as a result of intermediation
I think is one of the big questions and one of the things that we will see very quickly
If people go away from the traditional process and if we see that there's many more direct deals
Between buyers and sellers or if in fact everybody's better off because you have an expert at your site
Hmm, I hope you guys will have me back on to talk about travel agents sometime because that's a fascinating story too
And especially if it involves going to the lake district
All right music and music as an asset class
Combining two of my favorite things like finance and music Sarah go
Oh, I'm so glad you guys were eager to talk about this because I'm quite curious to hear your thoughts here
So recently as I'm sure you've noticed artists like Justin Timberlake Bob Dylan Katie Perry Bruce Springsteen Shakira
Have all sold the rights to their music to investment companies and it makes sense to me why artists would do this
They get a massive in some cases lump sum of money and they don't have to do the work of licensing their song out to
advertisers movie producers apps whoever wants to use it and buy the rights
But I'm a little bit confused as to why some of these deals are so massive and why these investment firms have been sort of rushing in to
snap up these rights
So maybe first it's a good idea to talk a little bit about how the music industry typically works and have revenue is distributed
Because in part what is happening is interesting that it's sort of the neglected side of the industry that is a play here
So right make a specific example suppose I had written a really great song
I would then go to my publisher and I would say oh my god, I have this amazing song and my publisher would reach out to
Taylor Swift and others to see if they're interested in
recording and performing my song if you look at streaming revenue which is now roughly 60% of the revenue in the industry
So that's a really big source of revenue when you look at how that gets distributed the publishing side gets almost nothing
So about 80% of the revenue goes to the label that recorded the album or the song and then
There's a split between the label and the artist but 80% is already gone by the time the songwriter and the publisher even get to join in the party
And then the publisher and the songwriter typically split it half half that is out of a dollar if I wrote that song
I can expect about 10 cents or so
So these deals happen on that side on the publishing side of the industry that traditionally has gotten much less revenue
And so our first interesting question to think about is is there that much value created is that really we have under exploited opportunities
Or is there something else going on in the industry that now says well
Maybe the companies that used to act as publishers in the interests of songwriters
Maybe they didn't do such a great job and there's lots of novel and interesting ways of doing it
Right well, I'm gonna unsurprisingly maybe take a tax and finance angle on this
The first thing just to say is there's just a massive benefit to the artist from selling
They're not getting taxed at ordinary income rates. They get a capital gain treatment on all this
Which is a very unusual exception to the rule
But they basically get to get taxed to 20 instead of a 40 and that's pretty darn great
The other piece of it I think is part of the is the industry story Felix
But it's really a finance story in part two so this all happens
During a period where interest rates are low and you have lots of folks looking for yield
And that has been the defining characteristic of the last seven years or more
And so when everybody's looking for yield you start to look to different kinds of assets
That maybe have steady streams where you can actually generate income
And moreover if you think about it as a problem of diversification
You could imagine how if your Bruce Springsteen and you're kind of have a whole chunk of your wealth wrapped up in
your song book
You might value it differently than a diversified set of investors
And so part of what's happening here is when you take those assets and this happens in pharma
It happens in all kinds of places when you take these assets out of the individual domain
And you basically get people who
Are able to price those risks and those cash flows
In a much more diversified way
Then wow, that's pretty great. So I think that's part of what's going on
Now the question is
Well, wait a second interest rates went up a lot and now it's not as clearly desirable in asset class
And we're starting to see the cracks break on
You know the system including with this remarkable example in the UK
Where we have one of the largest funds kind of breaking down and
Maybe having trouble. So to me, it's kind of like this wonderful story of the last 10 years
Which captures a lot of what we've been seeing in the world for the last 10 years
Yeah, I think that's interesting because during that decade
It was common to hear people behind these fun say things like oh, it's so great
It's a source of cash. It's for curry revenue. It doesn't go up and down like oil or gold and you're thinking huh
I mean, I like music, but is it more valuable than something like oil or gold?
I hadn't quite thought of it that way before and also I think there was a lot of attention paid to
money draining out of recorded music because artists only get fractions of a penny for every stream
Or because of illegal downloads and stuff like Napster
So I think for a lot of people it came as a surprise that suddenly this recorded music would be so valuable
As opposed to live performances, which is where so much of the attention has been over this same period of time
So it seems like people were just waking up to this happening as the cracks started to form in a way
And I think the cracks also have to do with the traditional publishers
What is it that they don't do that now these funds can do so much better to squeeze much more value
Out of a particular set of rights and one of the arguments that I often hear is
Well, if you're a big publisher you have tens or hundreds of thousands of songs right and
These funds end up owning hundreds or maybe thousands of songs if they have really specialized
So they can be much more focused and can be much more engaged in trying to make sure that McDonald's uses your song or that
Maybe it's included in a movie and so on and so on that argument
Frankly, I find a little hard to believe because of course the traditional publishers
They also know that most songs have no value most of the time
And they have the right incentives to focus on the few that have potential
Mm-hmm one way to think about the gains is for the super famous artists that traditionally have now owned a lot of their catalog
Maybe their the publishing function wasn't performed that well and so the fun step in and they do a more reasonable job
But for the average artist where there is a publisher that actually gets roughly half of
That revenue on the publishing side. It's a little hard to know why these funds should be so much more successful
Well, let me give you a hypothesis
I'm coming up with on the fly and you can knock it down. Yeah, which is the firms that have been particularly active
KKR and Blackstone and others
Is there a sense in which they could exercise some power
By pooling artists against the streamers
So if you think that this is somehow Felix about bargaining power relative to the streamers
So Felix in your little case where you designed that song for Taylor, which is a lovely story
I wish it was true
That problem gets
Solved because we have this collective agent now who is going to be a very hard-nosed
bargaining agent and who has all the right incentives and can push up against
Spotify. I don't know. Does that resonate with you as a feasible story?
I think there's something to it although
The threat presumably is
That you're not present on Spotify and you've seen even with someone like Taylor Swift
She cuts her ties to Spotify because that is really the industry right now
It's quite remarkable how music revenues have come back
So we're roughly in the same place that we were in the early 2000s or so which is really miraculous
But what's the answer is all streaming right no other part of the industry has really grown dramatically and so
in that relationship
It's quite difficult for me to see how you might put a lot of pressure on Spotify. I could
Maybe see that at the margins you can get some better terms, but in particular with
The older pieces in the catalog right so when
Justin Bieber and Neil Young those are not the songs of today where you think oh my god
I go on Spotify and I don't even hear the billboard number one
Those are the ever green that get traded and that gets sold and how much
Maybe you're right. It's an interesting question whether that really increases their bargaining power significantly
I'm also going to throw another idea out there that has more to do with core competences than
negotiating power which is just I do think that
Managing a front catalog and a back catalog are different. It is a different skill set to recruit new artists
Identify undiscovered talents help them produce an album launch them market a brand new album versus a song that's 50 years old
And thinking to yourself well, how could we get this in an apple commercial?
How could we get this on a peloton?
Stream so that peloton would license this I think that those are different sorts of skills
And I do think that as it is in a fragmented market
It's a lot of work if you are say the person who comes up with all the songs for the peloton workouts
And you think well, I really want to license this song from the 90s
But I don't know who really owns this copyright anymore
And if there is a one-stop shop then you can go to them and say look we want all your jock jams
So we want all your workup music and then you can negotiate that way
So I do think that there are different skills here at play from the publishers perspective
And also maybe get some ease from the matchmaking perspective
Yeah, that's interesting and maybe also in the cases where
The same company is on the recorded music side and on the publishing side
Because recorded music gets so much more of the revenue
Maybe that's another reason why publishing is sort of, yeah, you know, it's a business but it's not that great
It's not that interesting
Really what you want is the right kind of artist that then has a super super popular song
The trend also to have much more collaboration in the industry
Where you have three four five six ten people who are part of the songwriting teams
Where you often sample from existing music and then that songwriter has to be compensated as well
All of those dilute the revenue streams on the publishing side and maybe bundling those
Then makes you pay a little more attention to the opportunities that do exist
Yeah, your arguments are reminds me of the pharmaceutical and the biotech market where you might think quite naturally that developing new drugs
Is very distinctive from maybe making the most at the end of a patent of what the value is remaining in that patent
And those are in fact very different competencies and you would exploit them to be split
Before we leave this I just want to recommend everybody follows this ongoing saga in the UK involving one of these large funds
I think it's pronounced hypnosis. It's h-i-p-g-n-o-s-i-s
Which is really just a remarkable story in this case kind of a corporate governance story of
Somebody who's been running this fund and who also
Happens to have a management contract to run it, but also maybe has a right to buy it and maybe has a
Relationship with another potential buyer and so when you think about corporate governance it can seem quite boring
But this story is turning into just a really interesting example of what can go wrong when you don't think about conflicts terribly well
So really good story to watch
I think that would be remiss also without bringing it back to Taylor Swift
Because I think what she's doing with re-recording her songs is really interesting and just before we were sitting down to tape this
I saw that billboard was reporting that the major labels are actually teaming up to stop artists from doing this
So they would sign new artists and say you cannot re-recroy your songs for
10 15 even 30 years after the album comes out
Sarah, I was curious about that twist which is
I'm vaguely sympathetic to the music companies
So I'm very sympathetic to Taylor Swift because obviously if I was not I would get crucified
But I really genuinely am because she's a goddess
Your daughters will not speak to you for a month exactly
So she has a real problem with Scooter Braun
And it's really a remarkable story of independence and her ability to fight back
But it does feel right for a producer to say
You can't re-record. Is that wrong?
Sarah I
I can see why they would want to put a time frame on it to say okay
We're gonna come up with some amount of time where we have the exclusive rights to this
That's like not uncommon in any kind of publishing
But 30 years is a long time. I mean an artist that was 20 would not be able to re-record their music till they were 50
So that seems extreme to me. What do you make of it Felix?
Obviously it works for a superstar like Taylor Swift
Right, I think for everyone else it would essentially mean
That the music companies now have even weaker incentives to promote your product
So if a song ends up being really popular that often has to do with the effort and the work of dedicated professionals
Who tried to give visibility to new works and new artists
And I would worry a little bit in a world where everybody gets to re-record and then recapture the rights
Maybe generally speaking it's not a terrible idea for artists to own their rights
But if that is so important to you
Say so when we talk about that for early contract
And of course it will influence the terms of that contract and then
We can collaborate under a regime that is known to both. I think springing the surprise on
The contractual party that helped making you famous to begin with that doesn't seem quite right
Well, I'm gonna take the side of talent in this talent versus capital war in that case
All right, well, I'm curious to hear your guys's recommendations and I'm wondering if you might be recommending any music
Well, me here. Why don't we start with you?
So I was gonna recommend this anyway, but I just want to take credit for bridging our two topics housing
and music and rights
And artists you claim credit people even though exactly and I do want royalties for this idea
So I
Finally got to see the re-release of stop making sense
Oh, which is the talking heads concert movie and one of my favorite bands ever
But the movie by Jonathan Demi has been re-released by a 24 which by the way
I think is the most interesting media company in the world right now
I've previously recommended Minari and beef and now stop making sense. They're just doing great work
But I saw it in a theater and it was just
So special now. I know everyone else is going to a different concert movie this season
But I'm going to recommend
Stop making sense by talking heads and Jonathan Demi as the greatest concert movie ever even if you don't like the talking heads
Go try to see it in a theater
They've remastered the music and it was an occasion for the band which has been
Kind of not getting along to actually come back together, which was also just a wonderful thing to see
So what's the link to brokerage fees?
Everyone's coming to my house and burning down the house. Oh my god. I thought you were familiar with the catalog
What do you have for us Sarah? I have something a bit different and actually it's a testament how much you guys have changed
How I think about these things that all summer as I was binge reading this book series
I kept thinking I really hope they have me back on after hours because I want to recommend this so badly
So my recommendation is a series of books written by Amy Stewart
their historical novels they are set in
Pre-World War one new jersey when it was rapidly expanding changing
Horestron characters were switching over to cars
There was a huge amount of manufacturing and it focuses on these three sisters
One of whom becomes involved with law enforcement as an enforcer
One of whom is a sort of singer and vaudeville entertainer and the other one about whom less is known
But they sort of build up her character in a amusing way in the book series
The first book in the series is called girl waits with gun
I read it not knowing that it was a historical fiction
I thought it was just fiction fiction and I thought at the end of it
Wow, whatever remarkable and inventive and amazing story and then I read the
epilogue and I was like oh my god. It's based on real people actually
It was entertaining
It was moving but not upsetting or sad if you're sort of avoiding those sorts of books
Parts of it were very funny and I just can't recommend it enough
There's like seven or eight books in the series. I'm really hoping there's gonna be more
I'm just taking a look at it here. It looks fantastic. That's great
It's all the more rewarding when you read a very entertaining story
And then you find out it's really grounded in reality somehow. It's makes it even more wondrous
Than it was the first time you thought about it. Yes, and Felix. What do you have?
I'm taking us back to
Part of reality that is a little less comfortable
So I had to recommend that the Israel Klein podcast before but I want to especially recommend
An episode where he's talking about what is happening in the Middle East
And it's recorded right after the Hamas massacre happened
and
it's a marvelous
Interesting episode. It's just him. He has no guests
But you can just feel the raw emotion the response to
just the unbelievable atrocity that just happened
He talks about his face and being Jewish and what it means in that moment
And then the part that I really admire about him is
One of his conclusions so early on is that
The moment requires us to do something that we're actually typically not very good at
We need to keep these two very different thoughts
In our mind at one at the same time namely that there's this unspeakable barbaric atrocity
And then there is the broader context that lets us ask
What's a good response? What can you do? What should you do in the case of this awful terrorism?
And the way he goes back and forth thinking about Palestinians and Palestinian families
And in view of maybe some people expecting him to be just seeing this one side
It's just really remarkable. It's relatively short
I think because it was sort of almost like a bonus episode
But if you want to hear someone just honestly struggle with what it means and what one could do
And how one could make the situation better
It's a really fabulous episode. Israel is giving Hamas what it wants is what it's called
It was aired on October 18
And it spoke to me I think in part because
This idea that we're not very good at holding two thoughts
In our mind that one at the same time strikes me as so right
Think about tech either using tech is evil and needs to be pushed back
Or you think oh my god tech is like the best thing that's happened to humanity
Think about say republican extremists in congress
Who basically make the parliamentary process not work at all
And then they have ideas around the budget
Going back to regular rule which are exactly right and that's just very difficult for us to do to
Think to really opposing things about a particular issue or a particular topic at one at the same time
And so if you have a chance to listen to it, I think it's really wonderful. That sounds great
Yeah, thanks Felix and so we're out of time. This was it for tonight
Thank you everyone for listening. This was after hours from the Ted of your collective
