Discussion keeps the worldturning.
This isRoundtable.Hello, welcome toRoundtable, where we serve up piping hot debates on the issues that Siso in China andBeyond.
I'm yourHolin. Imagine walking down a street your ancestors traversed some 200 yearsago.
Still alive with the echoes of Yesteryears.
These historical areas are my favorite tourist destinations forsure.
And across theglobe, from the dynamic architectures of China to the Victorian houses of SimfrostSiso, efforts are underway to protect these cultural heritagesites.
Join us as we explore how these storage lanes are being preserved amidmodernization.
For today'sshow, I'm joined by Lee in the studio and Josh Cotterl on theline.
Now grab your virtual compass and follow us to the heart of thediscussion.
A historical and cultural blog on Qi-Low Archite buildings are recently being unveiled as a national 4A level tourist attraction in HaiNang.
Besides, many other historical and cultural blogs also show more vitality after modernrevitalization.
What do we need to pay attention to while renovating theseblogs?
How can they shine in the modern time while maintaining the historicalvalue?
To startwith, let's give the definition of historical blogs a little bit oftime.
What exactly is a historicalblog?
Yeah, actually we do have an official definition about this historical and culturalblog.
And that's according to the regulations on the protection of famous historical and culturalcities, towns and villages issued by China State Council in2008.
And according to this officialdefinition, historical and cultural blog refer to areas announced by governments of different levels and with the preservation of particularly rich culturalrelics.
And they should have concentrated historicalbuildings.
And particularly historical cultural blog should reflect the traditional region patterns and historical features relatively in an authenticway.
And moreimportant, it should really have a certainscale, which means that it should be largeenough.
So ingeneral, historical and cultural districts or blogs often have threefeatures, historical living authenticity and integrity of aperiod.
The firstone, historical authenticity refers to the presence of genuine historical material remains in historical and culturaldistrict, reaching a certain standard in terms of quantity andproportion, documenting the historical changes of the localdistrict.
And the living authenticity refers to the retention rate of original residents and a degree of preservation of their original way oflife.
And lastone, Integrity of Appearance refers to the consistency of architectural style within the visual range of the historicaldistrict.
So basically there are different historical elements that should be included in a historical culturalblog, and that's its beyond buildingsitself, such aswalls,steps,stairs, andrevetment, and even ancient trees surrounding that blog should also be considered as a very important element of this historical and culturalblog.
These are all veryinteresting, makes a lot ofsense, but in order to not lose our listeners out there because of the detailed regulations anddefinitions, let's take a look at this latestexample, this Chiloarea, inHainen, it has been under the mediaspotlight, it's a 4A level touristattraction, we know we have a 5Atier, that basically means if you've got4A, you're almost almost on top when it comes to touristdestinations.
And what is this latestone, and can we check out the boxes that Li Yi has just mentioned using this as an example and see whether or not this really qualifies as a historical and culturalblog?
I thinkyes, because when you talk about this Chilo or Chiloarcade, it's actually a very typical modern commercial and residentialarchitecture, which are not only found inChina, but also in SouthAsia, South EastAsia, and of course here inChina.
And the Chilo arcade block here in Haiko is actually one of China's most well-preserved architecturalcomplexes.
It has almost 600 buildings with a blend of differentstyles, includingRenaissance, AncientRoman, South East Asian and traditionalChinese.
The moreimportantly, thestreets' roots can be traced back to 1849 when it was established by Chinese businessman returning fromoverseas.
So I think when you look at the details of thisblock, it can definitely be sufficient to call it as an official historical and culturalblog.
And now it's becoming the first newly added national 4A level tourist attraction in Haiko in nearly fiveyears.
So I think it's definitely said triggers the discussion about the way we protect and the more importantly to develop and to help those historical and cultural blocks to stay anyprosper.
Yeah, I have actually visited a lot of historical and cultural sites and historical and culturalblogs.
They have differentdistinctions.
They have their uniquecharacters.
Some have this very famous historicalsite, and then you see that building you know this area is built surrounding that building or theming thatbuilding.
Some have really significant cultural history or a cultural treasure that when you're there and you get to learn a lot of historyknowledge, you get to learn a lot of very interesting stories and have to say some of those stories arereal.
Some of those stories might be madeup, but they are quite exciting and quitefun.
But I want to askyou,Josh, have you visited any of these historical and cultural sites both in China and outside of thecountry?
Yes, ofcourse. I've been to many and there are many in my own country aswell.
I think that probably one of the most famous ones that I've beento, one of the most memorableones, and I guess you would consider it a historical block would be the city of Li Zhang inYunnan.
That,yeah, and I know that this is quite an interestingone,right?
Because I know that there have been some disagreements in that area between residents andtourists,etc.
about thepreservation.
Is it preservation of that historical area or is it turning it into a touristdestination?
But this is one of the moststill, one of the most beautiful places that I've ever been to inChina, just with the mountainousbackdrop,etc.
So I've seen a lot of these kind of blocks around Yunnan when I've beenthere.
Around HaiNan, not asmany.
Obviously, inShanghai, there are someareas,again, that I guess would be considered historical blocks that I'veseen, some of the old French concessionareas,etc.
Embatialing, ofcourse, is just a multitude of different historical blocks andareas.
And I guess we have to think about the definition ofthis.
I think it's maybe easier for you guys to define thismeaning.
Although this does have meaning inEnglish, we do use thisterm, historicalblock.
I feel like it might be slightly different in someway.
But Imean, would youconsider, forexample, Beijing's Yongdingman Gate and that old city squarearea, would that be a historicalblock?
Yeah, I would thinkso.Okay.
Well, I think there can be different definitions about this historical and culturalblock.
Imean, how big is it enough to be called as ablock?
And I think here inChina, officially there are different levels of ways of defining this kind of historical sites because we not only have historical and culturalblock, we alsohave,say, a definition called Li ShiDduan, basically meaning that historical location orsite.
It specifically refers to those areas which are not big enough to be called as ablock, yet it also has a certain historicalvalue.
It also carries a certain kind of historical memory for localpeople.
So I think as long as it really offers a physical link to the past for people living heretoday, it can be called as a historical block or alocation.
Yeah, none of us is a scholarhere.
We do not have to think about the scale of the area or how much history it actuallycontains.
The reason we're talking about historical and cultural blocks or area or streets or sites is that all of us agree that these places deserve to beprotected.
These places deserve to beleft, remain what they look like so thatpeople, ourgeneration, our futuregenerations, would be able to see them in person and get you understand as well as experience that part of thehistory, that part of the culture bythemselves.
Yet to whatdegree, to what extent should we protectthem?
Should we just neglect people's willingness and comfortness living in those areas and just say tothem, you have to preserve the traditional way of living because we want to preserve this little area like putting a fish bubble there and they should stay what they look like for the rest of your life and maybe your offspring's life or maybe we should find somenew, innovative and fun and technologically driven way to protect the area while improving the likelihood of people around there or maybe we can find an angle of commercialize those areas without tempting the authenticity of thearea.
That is the reason that a lot of people are talking about protecting historical areas while revitalizingit.
So have you ever visited a place that you feel that hit a perfect point of balance when it comes to both protecting the area as well as preserving theauthenticity?
Well, I just want to go back to the arcade block that we just mentioned in the highcall.
Actually, I just paid a visit to Thailand andPuget.
I also found that in the old town ofPuget, there is also like avery, very central and beautiful arcade blockthere.
Imean, there are like different colorful buildings with different arcade style and moreimportantly, when I look into the history of thisregion, I found that it is because that Puget town used to be a very important trading hub in history and that attracted a lot of emotions and settlers from variouscountries, especially various parts ofAsia, including China and other nearbycountries.
And those people also brought their unique architecturalstyle, including this arcadedesign.
And I thinkthere, I just saw how local people worked to prosper this region because everyday, I mean duringdaytime, it's just a very traditional and normal arcadeblock.
Yet everySunday, especially during thenight, the whole block is just turned into a large largemarket.
And every store would just open their door and welcome theirguests.
And alongside thestreet, you see like rows of small stores selling different souvenirs or food or just a simply foodstands.
And there are even likeperformances.
People just playing guitar and sing songs and playing dances at the central part of theblock.
I think it really represents how thisvery, very old and traditional architecture block is turned into a place where not only local people can enjoy their life and also make businesses and makemoney, but also attracting tourists from all around the world to celebrate their very unique culture and livingstyle.
Yeah,well, the example that I'd like to give is actually from the United Kingdom and that's Edinburgh's oldtown.
I think that anybody that's ever been to Edinburgh will probably immediately feel that there are somewhere veryspecial.
It's stunning just in itself where it's geographically located amongst a lot of mountains and greenery and the weather can sometimes be quite vicious to behonest, but when it's warm in thesummer, it's extremely beautiful andcomfortable.
And Edinburgh Old Town is actually a UNESCO World Heritage site because of its medieval and reformation era architecture and the famous Royal Mile which inspired Harry Potter and things likethis.
It really feels like you're walking round Hogwarts or something when you're in the middle ofEdinburgh.
It's real and I think that this has a perfect balance because as well as having all of this historicarchitecture, it's actually a thriving and bustling citycentre.
It holds the biggest comedy festival in the world everyyear.
The Edinburgh FringeFestival, its musicscene, its art scene is very vibrant and so as well as being sort ofpeaceful, it's managed to sort of live peacefully with a bustling art scene as well which I think is sometimes quite challenging todo.
It's pretty affluentthough, it's not a cheap city to live in even by UKstandards.
Soyeah, there is this part about it butotherwise, yeah I think it has a great balance forme.
Yeah, that is actually very interesting when you mention the fact that it is still a bustling city centre and people still live there but they live their own life instead of transforming or focusing all of their life centre into for example tourism purposes or the provider of the tourism industry centering that area which makes me think about actually two examples with very different developingdirections.
Thatis, the first one I can think about is a Jinghong County or village that is in Huangshanarea.
It is with a lot of Hui local architecture style and when you travelthere, of course they still provide traveling resources andservices.
You still get to visit a lot of historical sites listening to these fun stories of historical figures and listening to how previously in history these places are functioned under the governance of their localzones, local bigger family or tribe kind of culture instead of the local governments governance and it is all veryinteresting.
Yet, the fun thing about that area is that it is really not that commercialised to startwith.
You don't get to havethese, I would call them famous and infamous at the same time streetfood.
That is the kind of street food you get to see everywhere if you go to tourism destinations labeling themselves as cultural and historical travel destinations that is for example the crispypotatoes, the grilledsquid, the stinkytofu, yeah all these things you can get them everywhere and they call themselves snacks with localcharacters.
No, that's notlocal, you can find themeverywhere.
Well, if you're talking about friedinsects, that's a little bit local to local places but those are not the kind of snack I wouldprefer.
Nevertheless, in this place you do not get to see these things which you can actually enjoy would be localfood, real localfood.
It can be really spicy because of Enquip province is famous for its spicy and chopped chilisauces.
If you are not the person that can appreciate spicy food then it can be a little bit challenging foryou.
But at least people there can say I am providing the kind of food that we actually eat everyday, that is the real authentic localcuisine.
So that's onecase, that is we hold on to ourauthenticity, if you like tovisit, you have to adapt to ourstyle.
Yet another very famous and interesting example would be the Da Tang Bu Yecheng in Xi and a sleepless city in Xi and with Tangstyle.
That place is highlycommercialized.
But people enjoy that level of commercialized because they're doing a really goodjob.
They're providing you with the service that you can in other places maybe only dreamfor.
They pull out all these different activities and inviting you to participate in a certain knowledge quiz asking you to see whether or not you remember the second verse of a certain interesting poem whether or not you know some unique knowledge about a historicalfigure.
And because we call it a sleepless nightcity, actually the city during night time is even morebeautiful, decorated with all these different types of redlanterns, these different types oflights.
And people they are dressed as traditional Chinese Tang Dynasty people and you can even dress up like that because there are services allowing you to do traditional makeupeverywhere.
Soyes, highly commercialized yet people enjoy it quite somuch.
So these are different directions for these historical and cultural blocks to be developedto.
Which one do youprefer?
Well, actually I've also been to the sleepless Tang area in Xian and I think as you said it's really highlycommercialized.
Obviously you can observe that because alongside the streets I even saw like mini karaoke store where you can simply go inside to have it like to basically sing asong.
But I think all you all it's still successful in the way that it really hold down to the perception where people's imagination about Tang Dynasty because when we talk about Tang Dynasty you always think about TangShengshui.
You think about a very prosper dynasty with very bustling street views and with lanterns and with a lot of people you know walking on the street which is exactly what is offered by the sleepless Tang area here inXian.
So I think both the example you mentioned in Xian and also in Unhuiprovince, there are successful in the way that they work really hard to preserve the way to preserve the local culture which are actually consistent with theirhistory.
And I think that's very important factor because when you look at those unsuccessful historical blocks which offer basically same street food or snack or drink orrestaurant, I think they fail in the way that they try to attract as many visitors aspossible.
You know as many visitors from all around the country or from all around the world so that they offer as many options as possible so that they can invite customers to purchase the products whatever theywant.
However it's also their very tricky strategy because sometimes in that way you can also lose yourauthenticity.
You can also lose your very very which are supposed to be very attractive localstyle.
So I think that's also a lesson for those local tourism operators tolearn.
Yeah well just to I would agree with you and I think that another thing for me that makes these areas great and what is necessary for them to succeed in the long term is proper community engagement and some of the ones that have been less successful I don't think they've successfully done that because you know this isn't just about the local community sort of say helping out and maintaining it themselves in this kind ofway.
It means that to actually have active business in the area and successful business you know like restaurants and things like this but also just general stakeholders in the area and I think that if you manage to do this and people live there you start to what you can do is foster a sense of pride in that area and the people that live there start to take pride in it and this is sometimes where it can gowrong.
If it goes a bit too touristy for example then the local residents will it will be quite the opposite they can start to despise it right they can start to become angry with too many tourists on something like this which is not a good thing so I mean this is why I gave Edinburgh as an example because I know a lot of people from Edinburgh and even some of my friends from England that moved there are very proud of it and I think that this helps a lot so it's a very fine balance but I think it's veryimportant.
Another thing that I want to ask both of you is that because I've heard this theory that no matter how hard you try to preserve the authentic or the original look and lifestyle of a certain place you cannot really recreate it because you're thinking about especially here in China we have a history of over 5,000 years so if you cause some place historical and cultural block it must be already have the history of around 100 years or even longer than that and we are living in a different society nowadays we enjoy different technologies to the least important thing would be electricity if we're a place to remain its original lifestyle and architecture and way of living their everyday lives I'm pretty sure 200 years ago electricity is not that common so is it trying to hard or is it a mission impossible to actually preserve a place authenticity to the very extreme or maybe in the future we can use artificial intelligence we can use meta universe to actually create this kind of historical place or historical site in on the internet with virtual reality in you do not need to put people actually living in that area through all these hardships do you think it's necessary actually to preserve these historical and cultural blocks I think definitely yes actually you have to have those local residents living in those historical and cultural block which make those areas more valuable because it's not only about those buildings it's not only about those architecture it's also about the way local people live and how they share and pass down their local culture to generations that matter these are all the things that make these blocks or streets or whatever say areas you know lively and prospering because if we just preserve100% a ancient wall yet driving all the local residents away I don't only see a value in it of course you have to respect the willingness of local residents if they want to live in that areas then I think it's the responsibility of local governments to offer them this convenience say you do see some efforts coming from different areas here in China for example the Pingjiang Road Historical Cultural Block here in Suzhou it really does a good work in terms of helping the local residents build a 15 minute life circle which is quite popular and almost common in major cities here in China well I think my advice would be to always look at it as a long term thing and as much as we want to preserve something the idea of preservation almost refers to the idea of standing still right to keep it as it is in time and say it in time but the reality is that when we talk about a block like this it really is a living breathing place right and it needs to move forward as well so in that sense I think that it has to be thought about in a sustainable way and also in a realistic way that is you know able to involve the community that large and I think that's probably the best wayforward.
