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We have to talk about this, the definitions that we're going to utilize here.
Because the term anxiety or anxiousness, it can be thrown around in a way that can be almost flippant.
And so when we're talking about these terms, what do we mean for the purpose of this podcast?
And then once we get that operational definition, we'll keep on rolling.
So I think the most helpful way to think about anxiety is to think of it on a spectrum.
There's so many things in life are on a spectrum.
They're not 100 % one way or 100 % the other way.
And the thing to remember about anxiety, it is a natural and essential human emotion.
It is ancient. It exists in our lizard brain because it evolved as a way to keep us alive.
It evolved as a way to say, you know what, that Russell in the bushes means there's a threat.
Because the time I was out here before and there was a Russell in the bushes, a big old predator jumped out at me, we developed patterns and it's our body sort of taking a physiological response to a perceived threat, which is really helpful in keeping a species alive.
And it's also very human because we are forward thinking.
We are able to use references from the past to inform our future.
And that's a lot about what anxiety is.
And because we care so much and we want our species to live and we love people and we want to be great and we want to have friends.
So we have anxiety because we worry and we think about the future and we have bad things that we reference in our life.
So anxiety is part of life.
You don't get out of here without it.
And anxiety is part of leadership because leadership pushes us to our biggest edge.
And the thing about anxiety is that it can be great.
We need it, right? Think about when you are about to take the stage to give a presentation or it's your first day on a new job or your kid is about to be born.
You're anxious, but you have good anxiety.
You have what neuroscientists call good anxiety gets appropriate to the time.
It's probably going to go away when the thing is over and it's really motivating you.
It's giving you energy at the bottom end of the spectrum is when anxiety is a mental illness and anxiety is the world's most common mental illness.
And the most common form of anxiety disorders is called generalized anxiety disorder.
Over a third of the population has it on any given day.
And it is walking around with anxiety that is significant, that may prevent you from doing things that you want to do.
You can't get it out of your brain.
Maybe you're not sleeping well.
Your appetite is changed.
You're just a ball of worry and rumination and stress.
And there are other forms of anxiety like social anxiety and panic anxiety, if you've ever had a panic attack.
And so at the bottom end of the spectrum, anxiety is the big deal, right?
It can really get in the way.
And the good news is because it's so common, there's a million treatments for it.
And it's very, very common.
And then in the middle, and this is where just a lot of people are today, is when you have anxiety, maybe you don't have a diagnosed anxiety disorder.
You wake up a lot of days feeling like something bad is going to happen.
You know, like all's not right with the world, or maybe there's a global pandemic and you're scared about everything, or there's layoffs in the news, and your brain just can't stop fixating on, am I going to have a job in two weeks?
And that anxiety is like part of the modern human condition for a lot of people.
And I think it's really important to talk about.
That is, without a doubt, the best synopsis of anxiety I've ever heard.
Oh my God, that was incredible.
And I think the thing that was most impactful for me is just how human you made this, you've normalized this experience.
And I think there's a stigma that goes along with mental health issues in general, oftentimes, but with when we're talking about anxiety, it's a term that's used so frequently, but we never hear about the positive aspects of it.
We never talk about the fact that this is completely legitimate.
In a lot of cases, it's natural and essential.
And I love that description, at least for me, hearing it described in this way, makes it feel a little less scary when I'm experiencing that because I just recognize, oh, this is just a normal or typical part of the human expression of emotions.
100%. I mean, it's in the repertoire.
That doesn't mean it's comfortable and it doesn't mean it's easy, right?
A lot of big emotions like anger, we don't like sign up to feel them, but we have to learn how to feel them.
Because when we don't know how to feel them, and I look at the workplace is when we act out our stuff on everyone else around us.
We control people. We micromanage.
We're perfectionists.
We even yell, right?
We don't delegate. We work all night because we're sure that if we just work all night, we're definitely not going to get laid off.
Right? And so we got to learn how to marinate in these feelings, how to have conversations with them and how to treat them because they don't go away.
We just end up acting them out in other ways.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And Maura, this is an opportunity for some vulnerable coaching here before we get into the deeper parts of this interview.
Because when I was describing anxiety, I used the term normal and then I tried to correct too typical.
And I understand when we're talking about neurodiversity, semantics are important.
And I know that I was either right or wrong or wrong or right or trying my best.
Oh my God. How should we even talk about these topics?
I mean, I mess up all the time.
I'm always getting my terms wrong.
I think again, that's part of being human and vulnerable is that this stuff is new for a lot of us.
And if we're scared about talking about it, we're not going to get further.
So I'm fine with whatever terms you use.
I mean, I think in the vernacular, anxiety is normal.
I've never met a person who has said to me that there's a period of their life where they haven't felt some anxiety.
Now, it's not, quote, normal to feel it every single day, 365 days a year, 24 seven.
You wouldn't want that, but periodically a hundred percent.
Okay, good. Thank you.
And listeners, we're going to keep that in because I just want you to know that like these conversations, they're tough, right?
Especially when we're talking about sensitive topics and perfection is not normal.
And actually there was a study at a great organization called Made of Millions did, I think in partnership with Yahoo a few years ago.
And they asked managers why they didn't talk about this kind of stuff at work.
And managers said, I'm scared of using the wrong terminology.
I'm scared of offending people.
I'm scared of triggering people.
I'm scared of reinforcing trauma.
You know, our mental health literacy is not very high in this country.
And part of what I hope to be part of a movement doing is like really increasing that mental health literacy.
Absolutely. And your book and your podcasts are doing great work in that realm.
So I appreciate that.
And so one of the things I'm really excited to talk to you about is how do we have difficult conversations when we are experiencing anxiety?
Because these conversations are scary.
They can be scary. And what I'm recognizing is that a lot of times the struggle that people have in these tough conversations is that they don't even get to the tough conversations because they avoid them so much because of the anxiety and the fear that they're carrying.
And then if they do make it to the conversations, that the anxiety and fear has a negative impact on their ability to perform in the moment.
So for somebody who feels this emotional cocktail going into a conversation, let's focus on the beginning part.
How do you manage that?
Well, I just want to say that one of the hallmarks of anxiety on its quote, bad side is avoidance.
And this is again, very normal when you really don't want to do something or you're really scared to do it, or you're certain it's going to be a bad outcome.
You might just avoid doing it, right?
Just pretend it doesn't exist.
Or I've coached people who have said I haven't said yes, when my boss asked me if I was interested in a promotion because I was sure I was going to fail.
That's anxiety. And it's also avoidance, right?
So just understanding that you may be avoiding because of your anxiety is important.
And again, I really encourage professional help because it works.
So that's that. I mean, the second piece I would say is that, and I'd love your expert advice, it's natural to feel anxiety before a difficult conversation.
It's natural to feel anxiety before negotiation.
It's totally natural.
The fact that you feel the anxiety is not a factor in whether you go through with it, or whether you do a good job or not, if you know how to manage it.
And again, to use that motivation, you know, what Dr.
Wendy Suzuki calls activation energy even to rise to the moment.
So I like to reframe and say, you're gonna feel anxiety.
That's okay. Are you prepared?
And do you have a plan so that you can manage through and not let the anxiety stop you?
Because I think emotions, I don't know about you Kwame.
I feel like emotions could be really strategic in a negotiation.
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If what you're saying is success is, hey, I don't want to feel anxiety at all, then it's going to be highly unlikely that you achieve success, because I can't think of anybody I know who doesn't feel those butterflies when the stakes are high.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And I wanted to touch upon, it was, I asked the question, you know, how confident are you now?
And then you said something on the lines of, well, the more that you prepare, the more that you'll feel better, right?
But I want to talk to those people right now, no matter how many hours you put into preparing, months, years, weeks you prepare, but then you still have anxiety every single time, even though you know probably more than anyone at the table, you've practiced it so many times, you went through it in your
head, maybe you said it out loud, but you know everything.
But yet, why do you still have anxiety, even though you're probably the most prepared person in the room?
And that's what I, the key thing I want to talk about now is the main reason people have anxiety, I just want to break down kind of like three reasons.
The main reason why people have anxiety is what I call the mental noise.
Okay, that mental noise is basically how do you talk to yourself?
How do you, what kind of beliefs do you really believe in?
Right, kind of like what we touched upon earlier, if you don't believe like you can fail, then therefore there's a little bit of that, okay?
So mental noise, that's a big one.
A second reason you might have anxiety is because of there's no skill mastery, because you haven't done the skill enough, therefore you don't know how to do it.
And then the third reason of why people have anxiety is they don't have enough opportunities.
It's like going and learning how to ride a bike, but all you do is watch videos on how to ride a bike, but you never get on the bike so you don't have enough opportunities.
But again, here's the main pitfall, most people actually think they have anxiety or they're not good enough, is because they don't have skill mastery, that's the mistake most people make.
Okay, most of the people that I help get this.
I'm going to say 99 % of the people that come to me when it comes to speaking anxiety, when people hear them speak, the audience will say, wow, you're a pretty darn good speaker already, okay?
They know more than anyone in the room, but then when they go through the speaking event, it's that mental noise, it's that self -critic that keeps on coming back over and over and over and over and over again.
And so one of the main reasons, the biggest one is because we have that anxiety, is that mental toughness, that inner game, that mental noise, that's basically it.
That's fascinating, that is fascinating.
And so when you are working with somebody and you're helping them to manage that anxiety, what would you say is the first step for you?
The first step is awareness, okay?
And let me give you, I'm going to give you an example because if, so awareness of what you might be asking, awareness of what you are saying to yourself, okay?
Awareness of your thoughts.
It all begins with, you know, some people might not believe this, but you know, you are what you think.
And then you take actions based off of how you think and how you perceive the world in a way.
So let me give this example.
Kwame, have you ever gotten angry before?
What? Me? Never. Do you remember the last time, do you remember the last time, perhaps maybe you got annoyed or angry but then you started to see the other side and then that kind of went away because you saw the other side.
Do you remember any situations?
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I mean with my team, we have a growing team and so I may, I drive the team really hard and I started the company on my own.
So I'm used to doing everything by myself and so now in the past couple of years, the staff has grown, the team's grown a lot and so a lot of times I'm still driving hard but I'm relying on my team as I should and then if things don't come to me as fast as I wanted to or anticipated, then I get frustrated,
I get annoyed but then I slow down and I say, oh yeah, well you know what, maybe you should have asked Maria, you know, maybe a couple of weeks in advance, not the day before to come into the office and help to do this recording and I know she'll get a good laugh as she's going through this but, yeah,
as I start to empathize and see the other side, the reactions become a lot more reasonable.
But you went through a great process and that's awareness first, right?
You were, you know, maybe you're moving so fast but then you became aware of, oh, maybe I should have asked a while back but you came to the realization yourself, is that correct?
Or did someone say, hey, yeah, 100%.
At this stage, yes, I did.
It's been a journey kit, it's been a journey of friends and family helping me to become more self -aware but I'm glad to say that now, usually, I'm able to notice it and I recognize that often for me, the more emotional I am, the more I need to slow down, stop and think because I'm usually missing something
and it's usually the perspective of the person on the other side.
Yeah, yeah, and exactly.
And here's the thing, if you weren't aware of that, you'll be doing the same thing, basically.
Exactly. Yeah. But again, it's one, being aware, I'm not saying change anything, being aware of some of the things that you're thinking about that's making you this way.
And then, second, is coming to the realization that is actually a problem.
Yeah. Okay. So I want to give an example to this, I was working with one of my clients.
This is not speaking related, but he said his wife was annoying the heck out of him.
And then, he started to talk about it.
Okay. And then, I asked him, hey, what's the problem?
So the situation is every single evening, he would come home and, you know, come home late and then the wife would say, hey, you know, go make the dinner.
I didn't make it because we're coming home late.
And in his mind, he was saying this out loud to me.
Okay. He was saying, man, I can't believe you didn't make me anything.
You know, I was coming home late.
Why can't you support me that way?
Why can't you, you know, cook?
And then he was feeling a noise or what he would do, you know, he was just like, you know, mumble and then go away.
But then when I dig further, okay, again, he was saying to me, I can't believe she was doing this.
And then when I dig further, eventually, we came or he came to the realization, well, I kind of like jot him that way.
But basically, it's, he hit no judgment here, but his core belief is the wife should cook.
Okay. That's how he grew up in this culture.
That's how everything was.
That's normal to him.
That's completely normal.
The wife should cook.
So therefore, when she's not cooking, she's not doing what she's supposed to do.
Okay. Now, he became aware of that when he said that out loud.
And then what he noticed was that, here's the thing.
Even if we both say to him, hey, maybe you both should cook.
You know, no one has one better than another, even if we tell him that he might not come to that realization.
That is a problem. He might think it's still normal.
So he himself has to come to that realization.
That is a problem. Now, here's the thing.
I want you to see, this is the same thing when it comes to anxiety.
Most of the I'm going to give an example.
Sometimes people have anxiety because they might think, if I make a mistake, people judge me, okay, I'm in, I'm in the spotlight.
People will judge me and I'm just going to fail miserably, okay.
When people, let's say, you don't get annoyed anymore or you don't get angry.
What happens? You started to see it from another side.
You started to see it from a different perception.
That's the same thing with anxiety.
If you can see that your truth, oh, people are going to judge me.
People are going to judge me, right?
That's normal for a lot of people.
That's real life. But what if there were another reality or another perception that people are not judging you?
They're actually rooting for you.
But here's the thing.
They have to come to the realization that it's a possibility.
So when we talk about negotiation and getting rid of anxiety, you're actually negotiating with yourself because you're trying to see it from different perceptions.
If you don't see it from a different reality or different perception, you will always, always be stuck with fear.
Because what is fear?
Because fear nowadays is not a lying in front of us.
It's a scary thing that we've created in our minds that's probably not going to happen in real life.
Okay, it's something that we've created in our minds that we think is going to happen because we think that's reality because we didn't see it from the other side yet.
Does this make sense?
No, this makes a lot of sense.
It makes a lot of sense.
And I think this gives us an opportunity to transition into why communicating with yourself will help you to be free, because that's what we started to talk about.
Having that internal monologue or dialogue with yourself rather.
Now, can you walk us through a little bit more about what this looks like in practice and how we can make it work for us?
Yeah, so when it comes to communicating with yourself, we first have to talk about too the importance of communicating with yourself.
Since you don't do crossfit anymore, what do you do to work out now?
Are you doing anything?
I do. I go to the gym five days a week in the morning and then a couple evenings in the week, I do some jiu -jitsu.
So I still get it in.
I just crossfit was a little bit too much.
Oh man, hey, that's awesome.
That's awesome. I was reading this American ninja book.
I'm into all the obstacle stuff.
And there's this one guy saying the champions are actually made, not at the event, but everything else that they put in before the event on their own.
So a lot of the time, when it comes to practicing, you know, communication skills, it feels like, oh, hey, what's the technique we have to work on to get better at our skill?
Kind of like fitness in a way.
The most important thing is how can we communicate with ourselves to stay disciplined, to explore more of our minds?
It's the battle that's not out there.
The battle is in here.
The way in is the way out.
Most of us think, oh, I need to prepare more, or I need to learn this technique more.
Well, if they dig down a little bit further, the problem could be, let's say if you think people are going to judge you, the question is, why do you think people are going to judge you?
And you should solve the question for that.
Not how can I make this statement better, but the problems that you have.
So when I say communicating with yourself, are you asking yourself the hard questions?
Think, you know, ask yourself why.
Well, let's say you figured out, well, I need to be perfect.
Why do you think you need to be perfect every single time?
Ask yourself, why five times?
Dig down, dig down, dig down, and then you'll communicate with yourself more.
And you need to make this basically a daily practice.
The best people out there, they know if you want to be a better communicator to others, if you don't know how to communicate with yourself, can you be a strong communicator with others, right?
Learn how to communicate with yourself first.
And then it's basically the same thing with other people.
That's it. I love that because you're absolutely right.
And when I started to recognize the depth of understanding that I could get through some thorough introspection, negotiating with myself and asking myself those questions over and over and over again, it helped me to realize that when I'm having a conversation or a negotiation with other people and they're
giving an answer, they might believe that answer is correct based on their current understanding.
But a lot of times they haven't done the mental work to dig down deeper, to fully understand what it is they believe and why.
And so a lot of times in my conversations, I try to be that internal voice to help them go through that internal process in front of me.
Of course, you have to have a lot of trust, build a lot of trust for them to be vulnerable enough to do that.
But then you start to get interesting revelations that are not just new to you as the listener, but to them as the speaker too.
And so when you are going through this introspective process, what you're going to start to realize is that not all of your thoughts are true.
Just because you think it and believe it doesn't mean that it's true.
And so again, you're going in saying, oh, people are going to laugh.
They're going to judge me if I say something wrong or something like that.
Instead of going into it with that fear and saying, how can I make sure that they don't love, laugh at me or judge me?
You stop and even go beyond that and just say, hey, well, why do you even think that's true?
Because especially with public speaking, people are rooting for you.
They don't know. I don't want to go to a speech and see somebody fail in front of me.
That's awkward. I want the people that I go to see to succeed.
And once you start to recognize that you're you realize that you're usually performing in front of a group of allies.
And then even in a negotiation, I don't want somebody who is who doesn't have everything together because then it makes it harder for me to do my job because I don't fully understand where you where you stand in this situation.
I need information in order to perform effectively.
So even in a negotiation, the negotiator on the other side wants you to be able to competently articulate yourself so we can have a productive conversation.
And so a lot of those fears that we have are really unfounded.
Yeah. Can I ask you, do you do any kind of like mental work or reflection?
So like how do you do it?
Yes, yes, yes. So mental health is important.
I've been focusing a lot on meditation and gratitude.
Those have been the core just like foundational mental health.
But when I think about it in terms of reflection during a difficult conversation or if I'm speaking in public, I think about it in terms of self coaching.
And so I say, okay, after I have this conversation, I'm going to replay the tape just like a coach would for a sport.
And I'll say, okay, Kwame, what are the things that you did?
Well, what worked well for you?
Great, I'm going to try my best to replicate that and improve upon it in the future.
What are the things that I did poorly?
What could I have done better?
What should I have done differently?
Great, I'm going to go back, I'm going to make sure that I don't make those same mistakes again.
And so one of the best ways to continue to improve, in my opinion, is by making sure when you review your performance over the day or whatever it is that you did, just trying your best not to make the same mistake twice.
And that's a really simple way to continually improve your baseline from time to time.
Yeah, and that's a great one.
Just taking time to review, taking the time to stop and slow down and review instead of just go, go, go, go, go at times.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
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