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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts.
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Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
mac thanks for joining us today well thanks for having me on the show kwame no it's my pleasure it is my pleasure so how about you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do i'm mac pritchard and i own and operate two small businesses one is a public relations company that serves nonprofits foundations and purpose -driven brands and we just celebrated our 10th anniversary.
I also run a online community called MaxList, and it helps people find rewarding, creative work, and master the nuts and bolts of job hunting and career management.
And I run both of these businesses from Portland, Oregon, Kwame.
Very nice. And can you tell the audience about how we met too?
We met at Podcast Movement this summer, in the summer of 2017, in Anaheim, California at an event for people who produce shows about careers and jobs.
And it was really terrific to meet you in person.
It is so much fun to go to podcast movement.
When I talk to other people about it, I describe it as it's almost like a podcast utopia.
It's so it's great.
I love it. Yeah, it was great connecting with you.
And here we are. Now we're doing the classic podcast cross -pollination.
And I'll be on your show sometime soon, too.
If you are a podcaster, and I know we're going to talk about negotiation and jobs and careers, but it's like going to Comic -Con for podcasters, podcast nerds, rather.
So it was a lot of fun to nerd out with you and others in our world for a couple of days.
Absolutely. Well, good deal.
Let's get into it. Because I know a lot of our listeners out there are in the job market or they currently have jobs, but they're keeping their eyes out for opportunities.
So I wanted to give you an opportunity to share your expertise with the audience in this particular realm of your professional life.
I'm an accidental expert on careers.
My training and most of my professional positions, Kwame, have been in communications, especially in government and politics.
And I'm actually getting fairly long in the tooth.
I'll be 59 next month.
So I've been in the workplace for a long time.
And my professional background, As I said, I've worked in politics for elected officials.
I was a speechwriter for a governor, a city hall communications director, the veteran of many electoral campaigns, in part because of the field.
And you do change positions in that world fairly regularly.
It's often tied to the election cycle.
I learned a lot about both unemployment and how to find work.
And those experiences also made me a great networker.
I'm somebody who just loves to go to connect with other people and help others.
And so as a result, I started a list, Kwame, going back 16 years now, that where I shared job postings with people after I'd left a position in state government because I wanted to stay in touch with my professional colleagues.
And that list grew very slowly.
But what I did inadvertently was create a community.
Today, that community is centered in a website.
It attracts 40 ,000 unique visitors.
And the heart of it, what often draws people there, is a job board.
We sell about 400 job listings a month to employers, largely in the Pacific Northwest.
And as a result, I've met in the last decade and a half a lot of job seekers.
They come to me for advice, and I've learned a lot about what I've learned about job hunting along the way I've shared with them.
First lessons I learned is that most jobs aren't advertised.
There's what's called a hidden job market, and these are positions that are filled by word of mouth.
And they could be as many as eight out of 10 of the jobs that are open at a given time.
So what we do at MaxList is help people find those jobs and get them and learn how to get good at job hunting, because it's a skill along with negotiation that we all need to have if we're going to have a rewarding, successful career.
This is really fascinating because I've never heard anybody give a precise number to it or an approximation of how many of the jobs are really on the hidden market.
And that's almost terrifying for people who are just applying in the traditional way.
It is a sobering statistic.
And I have to give a caveat here.
There's no formal survey I can point you to.
It's an estimate that people in the human resources world cite.
So it could be perhaps five out of ten of the jobs out there aren't posted, or maybe it's six out of 10, but whatever the exact proportion, it's significant.
And so once you understand that, your next step has to be to learn how that system works so you can make that system work for you.
And it is something you can master.
We can talk more about practical techniques people can use to do that.
Absolutely. And what's really fascinating, of course, to me, is the fact that we can use some of the negotiation and persuasion techniques that we've learned over the years on this podcast to position yourself really well on the hidden job market.
I know that one of the most important parts of being able to take advantage of the opportunities on the hidden job market lie in the informational interview, and I'd like to get into how we can use some persuasion techniques to maximize those opportunities.
Before we get into that part, can you tell us a little bit more about what an informational interview is?
An informational interview is a business meeting, Kwame, and typically it runs 20 to 30 minutes.
It's not about picking somebody's brain.
It's not about having coffee.
It's about walking into a room with an agenda and an understanding of what you want to get from that conversation.
But it's not only about you.
It's about what you have to offer.
I say all this because I think many people don't understand how informational interviews work and so they struggle and i think we've all gotten those requests could we get together for coffee i'm looking for work and often those meetings are unproductive because they aren't planned ahead and the person who has asked for the meeting who's in charge isn't clear about what they want to get from it okay so this is a different take on it than i've heard because usually okay and this is good because basically what I've heard in the past is like, hey, get coffee.
And then that's it.
So it's fascinating to me to see the strategy of it.
And like any good negotiation, you go in with an agenda and with a clearly stated goal.
That's different from the way most people go into these.
So what kind of things should we think about having on our agenda when we're having these meetings?
Well, you should be clear about what you want to get, what you want to accomplish from a meeting.
I think sometimes people who ask others for time to talk about a job search get frustrated because they don't know exactly what they want.
And they say to themselves after they leave the room, that wasn't a good meeting.
I didn't get a job offer.
This person didn't tell me about opportunities at this company or nonprofit.
A good informational interview has a structure and you can break it into three parts, Kwame.
The first part is it's an opportunity to tell the person you're meeting with who you are, what your goals are, and share your story.
And you can do that typically in about five minutes.
The second part is you want to walk into the room with some specific strategic questions.
Again, it's not about don't ask anything that you might learn about on the web.
So you don't want to ask basic questions about a company or the person's job.
Instead, there's a reason you've asked for this appointment.
Perhaps somebody is working at a company where you like to find out more about upcoming opportunities.
Maybe they've transitioned from the nonprofit to the corporate world, and you want to do the same, and you want to learn what challenges they faced in doing that and how they overcame those challenges.
You're looking for insights, you're looking for information, but you've thought ahead.
So that's the second part.
The third part of the conversation is asking for recommendations about other people you might connect with.
And again, think about this ahead of time.
If your dream is, I happen to be in Oregon, maybe you want to work at Nike.
It's a great employer.
It's tough to get into.
It's very, very competitive.
But you get an appointment with somebody who knows a department head at Nike that you want to meet.
It's very appropriate to say to that person, I see, you know, Mary Smith at Nike.
Could you make an introduction or could I use your name when I reach out to her.
So those are the three parts of an informational interview.
Share your story and your goals, ask specific strategic questions and ask for introductions to others.
Here's a bonus round.
I think you should also say at the end of that meeting, what can I do to help you?
Because ultimately it's not just when you're doing this kind of networking, it's not about taking, it's also about giving.
I love this. Hello, my friends.
Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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There's so much to learn, like how Patagonia innovates with its supply chain.
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Mac, this is so cool.
And I think one of the things that people miss when it comes to informational interviews here is the obvious, and it's right in the name.
The thing that we want here is information.
Like, that's objective number one, and then followed closely by recommendations.
Am I reading that right?
Correct. You want to, again, share your goals and get information and get those introductions or connections to other people who can help you in a strategic way.
It's not about collecting names and business cards.
It's about getting the information that will help you accomplish a career goal.
Perfect. Yeah. And one of the things that we see in negotiation is that when people are new to the topic or concept of negotiation, they don't recognize everything that can be negotiated.
And so the operational definition for this show or negotiation is anytime you're in a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something.
The goal is through that definition to increase our negotiation recognition so you would know when to utilize these skills.
And so now we can see clearly with the informational interview, we can use these persuasive tactics to get what we want, which is the information.
And we do it through the use of thoughtful questions that you've thought about beforehand, because it's hard to come up with really great questions on the fly.
That's absolutely right.
And like any negotiation, Kwame, it all goes back to your goals.
And so before you start reaching out to people and asking them for informational interviews, you need to be clear about where you want to go professionally.
People struggle with this and I personally have too.
It's hard to determine where you want to work next or what you might want to do next in your career.
Informational interviews can help you figure that out, but you've got to do it in a thoughtful way.
So if you're uncertain about where you want to go next but there are three kinds of jobs that interest you, start setting up appointments with people to talk about who have those jobs or have insights into people who get hired for those positions.
And talk to them about your interests and goals and your concerns, again, in a thoughtful, strategic way.
And you'll figure out pretty quickly which goal excites you the most.
But as with a negotiation, when you walk into an informational interview, there's a purpose for that meeting.
So when we are having this conversation and we're asking these questions, how do we have the conversation in a way that it doesn't make the other person feel as though they're being interrogated?
I think the key is to know what you want and also know what you have to offer.
So be clear about the purpose of the meeting.
And that starts with the email that you send someone and the request.
Again, sometimes people say to me, gosh, I've tried informational interviews.
People won't see me or I haven't got a good response.
And I say this with kindness, Kwame, but part of the problem often is the way they make the request.
I think we've all gotten these emails.
And full disclosure, I sent them myself earlier in my career until I learned better.
And it's an email that sounds like so -and -so suggested I call you.
I wonder if you might have time for coffee.
Could you get together?
And if you receive an email like that, or the other variation is, can I pick your brain about this or that?
It's unclear what the purpose of the conversation is, how long it will last.
If it's a coffee meeting, gosh, does that mean you're going to come to my office or do I have to go down to this Starbucks across town?
And it can sound like a lot of effort with no clear outcome.
So instead, a good request can look something like this.
It's an email. Subject line might say, Kwame Christian suggested I contact you.
It might say, Dear Mary, I'm writing at the suggestion of Kwame Christian.
I'm currently exploring opportunities in public affairs in the healthcare world.
As you can see from the attached resume, I have considerable experience in this area.
I wonder if you might have 20 to 30 minutes to talk about this field.
I'm available on these dates at this time.
Let me know what might work for you.
You're being clear about what you want, who sent you, and how much time and effort is involved.
You're also beginning to share your story by attaching your resume.
When I see people send out messages like that, Kwame, their response rates are very, very positive.
They get those meetings.
I think the key here is talking about informational interviews.
Just be clear when you leave that room what it is you want to accomplish.
And it usually involves some homework, some follow -up.
It's not unlike any business meeting, Kwame, or any negotiation.
There's clear next steps.
I've done a lot of work, again, in politics and legislative relations.
I remember an old lobbyist I worked with who said about a meeting between community leaders and, say, a member of Congress or the member staff, if when both parties get up, there isn't a clear to -do list about what needs to happen next, that's a failed meeting.
A successful meeting is one when you're job hunting where if you have an informational interview, it's clear what you're going to do next, who you're going to reach out to.
And if there's something you've asked a person who contacted, it's clear what they're going to do as well.
Brilliant. Yeah. And now I'm sure there are a lot of people having the same revelation where they say to themselves, this is brilliant.
My meetings will never be the same.
And then all of a sudden there's a wave of sadness that says, I've had a lot of failed meetings in my life.
But this is great. And also I wanted to say something about the introductory email that you suggested.
One of the, I'll say this, the single biggest cause of issues between people in a relationship, whether it's an informal business relationship or a marriage, is the violation of expectations.
And if you bring somebody to this meeting and you in your mind have it as an informational interview, and you don't frame it that way in the email.
They might just think you're coming to get to know each other, and then you start asking them questions in this way and asking for recommendations, and they'll almost be taken aback because it feels one -sided to them.
Whereas, if they use your approach, and they effectively and clearly set expectations up front through the email, you can still have a very productive informational interview without that risk of violating their expectations.
Exactly, Kwame. And the other thing that will happen is when you're clear about what you want, people are more likely to say yes to the appointment.
And people take these meetings expecting you to make those requests.
So don't be shy about asking for help.
And again, at the end of the meeting, recognize, too, that even though you've requested an informational interview, you're an accomplished professional and you've got a lot to offer.
You've got your own network.
Ideally, you will perhaps identify some common interests with the person you're meeting with.
It could be personal hobbies.
It could be perhaps you're involved in the same professional associations.
But don't be shy about offering to help them.
And when you ask that question at the end, say, well, hey, thanks so much.
What can I do for you?
Something magical happens.
It reminds the listener that you've got a lot to offer, too, and it also makes you feel good about yourself.
Right. Oh, I like that.
I like that a lot. And let's play devil's advocate here.
Hypothetically, if the other person is reluctant to share information, what type of persuasive techniques would you suggest using to get them to feel more comfortable sharing the information you want with you?
usually people are reluctant to share insights or contacts because they don't have confidence in the person they're meeting with and that lack of confidence is usually the result of someone who is unclear about what they want and doesn't know what their goals are and so the best way to overcome that objection kwame is both in your initial communication and in your in -person meeting itself, share your goals, make specific asks, and behave as what it is.
It's a business meeting.
And when you do that, you make it easy for people to say yes.
And you also inspire confidence because people will look at you and say, okay, she knows what she wants.
She's not asking me for general advice or large open -ended questions.
She wants an introduction to this person, or she's asking me questions that are related to my experience that I can answer.
this person obviously knows how to do this.
And I feel, I will feel confident recommending her to other people and making introductions.
That makes sense. Yeah.
And it goes back to, like you said, with clarity.
And one of the persuasive tools that you're using there subtly is the norm of reciprocity.
And with the norm of reciprocity, what that holds is that if you give something to somebody, they're more likely to reciprocate and give you something of what you want.
And a lot of times we kind of play this whole cloak and dagger game where we don't want to share information.
But especially in situations like this, if you've been unemployed for a while and you're looking for a job, sharing your motives might make you feel a little bit vulnerable.
But a lot of times when it comes to persuading effectively, we need to lean into that vulnerability and share that information.
And once people have a clearer understanding of what your motivation is, they're going to be more likely to reciprocate with information of their own.
I'm glad you brought up the vulnerability, because if you've been out of work for some time, particularly months, and again, I've been there myself twice, it's hard sometimes to get out there and knock on doors and make requests and ask people for help.
But recognize that you've had success up till now, and it's a temporary setback, but you're going to continue to have success.
In my own personal career, in my early 30s, I'd had some great jobs in my 20s.
I'd gone to graduate school at Harvard.
I had this fancy degree and I was out of work.
And I remember meeting a public affairs manager for Intel in Pacific Northwest and in an informational interview.
And he looked at me and he said, you know what?
It took about 15 or 20 minutes for the real Mac to come out because it's clear you've had some tough times.
But he also gave me this advice which has stuck with me he said careers we think are going to be like 45 degree angles and we're just going to go up up and up and actually there are peaks and valleys and so the lines are going to go up and they're going to go down sometimes you need to navigate those valleys and recognize they will happen but also recognize that over the long term over the course of decades you're going to have success so just keep that in mind as you move forward oh that's brilliant and what's really interesting about it on top of the fact that it's fantastic advice profound
advice really is the fact that he wasn't able to empathize with you until you opened up and showed the real you we all have to be authentic and that doesn't mean that you have to share intimate details but be yourself and people will you'll get so much farther along in the professional world when you do that absolutely well hey we are coming up on time i could talk to you about this forever.
This has been a lot of fun.
But let's bring this to a close with the final questions of the show.
The first one is about mindset.
What kind of mindset do we need to have to negotiate effectively?
Well, I think you need to have a positive mindset that starts from a place of abundance.
And what I mean by that is so many job seekers, people managing or navigating career changes concentrate on their deficits, on their problems, and we need to recognize those.
But it's important to remember when we walk into an informational interview or a job interview how much we have to offer.
And the best way, I think, to share those gifts and what we have to offer is to have a clear understanding before these conversations, say, if you're going into a job interview, about an employer's needs and problems so you can show how you can solve them.
or if you're going into an informational interview, you need to be clear about what you want from that meeting and also think about ways you might be helpful to the person you're meeting with.
Because networking isn't about function rooms at airport holiday inns and passing up business cards.
It's about service and it's about asking your network for help, but it's also about asking your community how you can be of service to them too.
Perfect. And in your opinion, what is the most important skill for negotiators?
Be clear about what you want and know your goal for a negotiation.
If you're clear about that, whether you're job hunting or pursuing another goal, you're going to get so much farther.
Awesome. And what is one resource that you'd suggest to people who want to improve their negotiation or conflict management skills?
Well, we've been talking about careers.
I think that whether it's a job search or managing conflict in an office or some business goal, it all comes back to goal setting.
And I'm a big fan in the career space of the book, What Colors Your Parachute?, which takes you through a goal setting process.
There's so many tools out there, Kwame.
So pick one that best meets your needs, but be clear about what you want.
And that's otherwise you're not going to accomplish what you set out to do.
I love it. I've never heard of that book.
It is now on my list.
Fantastic. Lastly, how can the audience keep in touch with you and learn more about what you're doing?
Well, I have a book called plan your dream job anywhere that includes a chapter about networking and informational interviews.
And if your listeners would like to get a free copy of the first chapter, they can go to maxlist .org slash negotiate.
They can also visit our website, maxlist .org, and they'll find a podcast, a blog, and lots of content, free content about the nuts and bolts of not only informational interviews and networking, but job hunting in general.
Fantastic. Thank you.
I appreciate that. And thank you for coming on the show.
This has been a lot of fun.
I've enjoyed it too.
It's been a great conversation.
Thank you, Kwame.
