The Hidden Cost of Unresolved Disagreements | Negotiate Anything

Today's episode of Negotiate Anything.

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Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.

With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.

What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.

Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.

Success doesn't look the same for everyone.

And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.

Let's dive in.

Natalie, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much, Kwame.

I'm so excited to be here.

Yes, and we are excited to have you, my friend.

So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Absolutely.

My name is Natalie Garamone.

I am the owner and principal consultant of 180 focuses on workplace conflict resolution and mediation.

And we are based in Richmond, Virginia, but operating globally.

Very nice.

Okay, so doing conflict resolution in the workplace.

I know this is something that is very needed.

So usually when people reach out to you, what are the scenarios that bring them to you?

Yeah, great question.

I often say people are coming to me from one of two places.

They are either coming to me because something has happened and they need help addressing it, or they're Nothing's happened, but they want to get ready, prepare for it, be proactive in case something does, in case there's a difficult conversation that they need to have.

What are those skills that employees need to have to be able to navigate that more productively?

I love it.

It's so important because we recognize conflict avoidance is a problem.

But then what's often not appreciated is the fact that sometimes employees, You want people to have those conversations, but then you run into the situation where they don't have the skills to have the conversation at a high level.

So I'm glad that you're addressing both of those issues.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think we hear so often in organizations and from leaders have the conversation.

Let's engage in difficult conversation.

Let's be transparent where they're touting values of transparency and being candid.

But what does it actually mean to practice that?

Especially in conflict situations, especially intense situations.

What do people need to know about how leaders expect them to handle conflict in those moments?

I think it is all too often something that we talk about doing but really have trouble putting into practice.

Yeah, for sure. about.

So listeners, I'm going to just lay out the framework, then we're going to jump into it.

The first one, I'll say I'm super excited about this first one, rehumanizing your adversary.

That's number one.

Number two, conflict avoidance at the executive leadership level.

And we're going to give a special shout out to folks who are in human resources there.

That's really important.

And then lastly, number three, de-escalation techniques for everyday exchanges.

This is great.

I'm pumped.

So rehumanizing your adversary.

Tell us more about that.

Oh, I know.

Whenever I use the word rehumanize, people gravitate towards it.

And I think it's because it is so to the point about what is difficult about conflict.

If you think of close your eyes and really think of a conflict situation that you have been in, what did you do?

So often we dig into our position.

We have a need to defend whatever it is that we are trying to say.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

But what it does in those moments is it causes me to be the point I am trying to make and it causes the other person to be the point they are trying to make.

So what are we if we are argument? points.

We're not necessarily viewing each other as human beings.

And so when I talk about rehumanizing your adversary in any given moment during a conflict, what we're talking about is being able to one, channel some compassion in that moment for ourselves, because it's difficult, and two, because The person is actually a person sitting across from us.

And I'm doing air quotes because that sometimes looks different in virtual situations, but they're still a person at the end of the day.

So rehumanizing really is about taking a moment to say, what's actually happening here?

Who is saying this point, who am I listening to in this moment?

And one trick that I encourage people to do when they're trying to focus on rehumanizing someone is picture them out to dinner with friends or their family, or petting a dog or I don't know something just human right.

To help bring us back to that moment that this is a person that we're actually disagreeing with.

I love all of this, Natalie.

This is so strong because it's one of those baseline, fundamental elements of effective communication that is often missed.

And we try to stack tactics and strategies on top of that.

But it is going to really be doomed for failure if we don't fundamentally view each other as humans.

And I really love this point.

I want to dig in on this because I'm so glad you say this.

It's validating because I've thought the same thing.

We have to separate the points from the person.

So the point that the person is making or the point that we're making and then recognizing hey, my identity exists beyond my position or perspective in this moment.

Can you go a bit deeper onto that one?

Absolutely.

Oh, I love that you brought up identity.

I feel like that's like could be a whole other podcast episode.

Right.

What else happens in the workplace?

We get caught up in this idea, this perception of who we are supposed to be.

And that is oftentimes our title, our role, our power dynamics do become our identity.

And when we are being challenged or asked to elaborate on a point, or maybe our idea is not being a agreed with, what do we do?

We have to protect that identity.

And we go into this ego preservation mode, right?

So we go into a defensive mode.

We're protecting our identity.

We're protecting our ego.

And at the end of the day, we're protecting how we're perceived in our team or our organization.

It can be incredibly difficult.

What it sets us up to do then is become really ingrained in defending our point.

And, like we just talked about, it prevents us from seeing the people or even acting like a human sometimes, in those moments, which just gets really fascinating.

Yes, it can get fascinating when you're not the person in it.

It's frustrating when you're in it.

And it's funny because I love watching, this is going to sound really bad.

Just stick with me.

Okay.

So I love watching conversations break down.

It's fascinating to me, endlessly entertaining, because from the conflict resolution perspective I can see all these, are these points that people are just blowing through and missing.

And if they would have just done something slightly different at this point, it would have changed the trajectory of the conversation.

So, when we're thinking about those inflection points in these conversations, what are some of the things that we should pay attention to?

That could be signals that either us or the person that we're talking to, we're not humanizing each other.

This is such a great question.

I first want to just point out that there is so little effort often that gets put into the upfront work.

That could prevent exactly what you're talking about.

The breakdown in communication often happens from just a sheer misunderstanding.

Let's talk about it on the most basic level.

You use a word, I'm using that same word, and we have different definitions of that word.

We don't have a shared understanding about what we're actually talking about in that moment, right?

So when you are in a role like you're in or like I'm in, and you're able to really channel that impartiality or that objectivity and we can see where that humanization and that communication or shared understanding is breaking down, it can be really frustrating to see, because one of the things that listen for, for example, is do they actually know what this person cares about?

Do they actually know what this person does this person have in defending this point, right?

At the end of the day, why do they care so much about this particular thing that they say they care about?

And in mediation, part of my role is peeling away, we say, those layers of the onion and getting to what are the actual needs that this person has, wants to have addressed through a conversation.

But oftentimes we're not doing that in the conversation.

So if we can learn to listen for the needs and learn to listen to the true interest this person has in resolving something that seems so important to them, I think we could get conflict and actually have it be more productive.

I agree 100%.

And now let me channel the listeners here, because there is a certain subset of listeners that says listen Natalie, I know all of this stuff.

I'm trying to be a good human.

But the problem is them.

They're not humanizing me.

So I'm just retaliating.

I'm the good person.

So what would you say to a person who brings that kind of perspective to this element of our conversation?

Oh, first of all, listeners, you are my favorite types of people.

Let me just say that.

Yes, this is foundational.

These things are fundamental, right?

And when we hear them or we hear someone reminding us of them, they seem so simple and practical.

What I would ask those listeners is how much time have you spent picture that person across the table from you, right?

That you feel like is not understanding you.

How much time have you invested in letting them know what they need to know about you?

For example, do they know what's important to you?

Could they list off maybe two or three of your values?

Do they know what motivates you in the workplace or maybe what some of your aspirations are?

So if you feel like someone's not understanding you, I like to flip it back on the other person and say how much time have you invested in that relationship and letting that other individual know what they need to know about you to disagree with you more productively?

And even in that same, even in just through the lens of conflict and disagreement, what do they need to know when they're disagreeing with you, right?

Well, maybe we can get clear and have a shared understanding of what that looks like before we are even in a place where we're disagreeing.

Brilliant.

Yeah, I think we overestimate just how much people understand about us.

And when you think about some of the original studies on the curse of knowledge, it was focused not just on expertise, but also what's just living in your head.

So for the listeners when we're talking about the curse of knowledge, it's the realization that it's really hard for us to remember what it feels like to not know something.

So once you learn something, it's hard for you to connect with somebody who doesn't know that thing, because you just think it's obvious.

Everybody knows. knows this, right?

So we have to remember, hey, what is obvious to us is not always obvious to other people.

And it's our responsibility to educate folks so they know what it is that's going on in our world.

Absolutely.

I could not agree more.

And one question that I like to give people as they are practicing productive conflict and having disagreements in a more productive way.

Disagreement diffusion planning is one of the workshops that I do which actually helps people prepare for having a disagreement productively.

This is something that's really effective with business partners.

But one question I ask people is when you're in the midst of a disagreement, what's something, even just one thing the other person can do or say to help turn the conversation around something up front, and having that knowledge going into a difficult conversation can really be a game changer for a lot of people.

That is really cool.

I've never thought of that.

I think that's a really strong thing to do.

I think that's another layer of preparation that we should all add to our difficult conversations, because it brings a different perspective to the strategic approach that we come to the table with.

Absolutely.

Yes.

The preparation is often an underlooked piece or undervalued part of the process for sure.

Definitely.

Well, perfect.

I think this is a great time for us to transition to point number two, which is conflict avoidance at the executive leadership level.

And then, of course, giving a special shout out to our friends in human resources, too.

Yeah, the leadership level is such a difficult level inside an organization responsible for so much.

I really, really feel for those leaders out there, because they really do have a responsibility for what that means psychological state and that safety is within their organization right.

It's a lot of responsibility for one person or a team of people.

A question that I often ask leaders and individuals in HR when I'm working with them is tell me, how does conflict get handled at your company?

And what's really fascinating is that a lot of themselves.

We tell our managers to give feedback, to be transparent to.

We have a continuous feedback cycle.

We do performance reviews, right?

They go to the systems and process pieces.

But very few people philosophically have a perspective on how conflict gets handled at their company.

And I do think it is a responsibility certainly at the leadership level.

And then HR has a difficult role in implementing, or sometimes playing an active role in that conflict management.

But I do think that responsibility falls within those roles to really say hey, here's how we want to engage in conflict here.

Here's what it's going to look like for us to do this productively.

This is great, Natalie.

And honestly, this is really helpful for me too, because for me we have a relatively small team, but still we do these conflict resolution trainings and we create these processes for other people.

But then we realize, oh my gosh, we didn't make it for ourselves.

It's easy to overlook even when this is your world.

And I think it's so important too, because again, it shows the value of a great open-ended question.

Hey, what's your process?

Oh, you help them to reveal that gap to themselves instead of coming in and saying hey, you don't have anything and that's a problem.

You say, hey, what do you have?

And they're like, my goodness, we don't have anything.

And this is a problem.

So just from your approach, I think that's really strong.

But then we could also see systemically within a company how this could be really problematic.

So can you paint the picture for the audience to what it looks like if you don't have these types of systems and policies and procedures in place?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think speaking specifically about conflict avoidance and going back to something we mentioned earlier, a lot of people say that they want to engage in conflict productively, but they don't have the organizational structure or processes or systems or that leadership philosophy around conflict management to be able to do it in a way that says, OK, here's how we move through this or here's how we're expected to move through this.

What I see most frequently is avoidance first and foremost at the leadership level.

So if I'm a leader and I happen to be conflict avoidant and there's a lot of different ways you can find that out right.

United States Institute of Peace has a wonderful free assessment that people can check out.

There are lots of different conflict assessments and leadership.

And I know a lot of organizations do 360 evaluations where we can identify.

Am I conflict avoidant as a leader?

So I would say the first step is figuring out how do you, as an individual at the leadership level, actually navigate conflict.

For those that are conflict avoidant.

We really have to understand the implications of what that means for your organization.

Where is that conflict avoidance playing out first and foremost?

Probably at the executive team level, right?

And then we see a trickle-down effect from there.

If I'm in HR, what am I looking for?

What indicators am I looking for to tell me then, how I have to manage conflict within the HR function?

Oftentimes they're not given specific tools or techniques or again, even that philosophy to say here's how we want you to step into conflict situations or, better yet, here's where we don't want you to step in, and we believe it's the responsibility of a manager to provide feedback or to proactively manage conflict, or to learn about their team members as human beings in order to get ahead of issues that may arise on.

So I'm rambling a little bit here, but really I do believe that responsibility is on leadership to then even engage our friends in HR and how they should show up as well.

This is really really helpful too, because I like the fact that you're being specific about the tools and techniques that people need.

So every organization will have a different approach.

Those organizations have the responsibility of providing people with the tools and techniques that work within the approach.

That's really important.

Something that I loved that we don't talk about enough is what conversations not to engage in.

I thought that was really interesting.

Can you go deeper on that one?

Absolutely.

Let's say hi to our friends in HR for a moment, because they have an incredibly difficult job and are often the people who are thrust into conflict situations and being asked to help fix this right situation with a manager and direct report.

Maybe there's been bubbling tension for a while and now it's surfaced as something that has to be addressed.

When we go to HR in this situation and we're asking them to help fix it or to mediate a conversation, for example, we're putting them in a difficult position because they may not actually be the right person to jump in.

At that point, people to do is say what was the role of the manager leading up to that right?

So HR is in an interesting spot where they have an opportunity to yes perhaps, depending on the situation, step in and help resolve it, but also put that onus back on the manager and say let's talk about your process for managing conflict and how you're doing that within your team.

So there may be situations where it's helpful to step out.

Another thing that I really focus on, especially with leaders at the higher levels and organizations, is are you enabling or are you empowering in conflict situations?

And for leaders who have a tendency to want to step in and solve, right?

And these might even be our friends who are conflict avoidant because, oh my gosh, there's a conflict.

It's uncomfortable.

Let's just kind of fix it.

I'll help fix it. is that the right thing to do?

Maybe not.

It may be your responsibility as a leader in that moment to say I could help you solve this, but I'm more interested in equipping you with the tools to resolve it or solve it or navigate it on your own.

So I do think it is really important to have the ability to zoom out of a situation and figure out what your role in that conflict really should be.

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This is powerful because I think this really shows the benefit of internal negotiations negotiating with yourself, figuring out why you want to do certain things.

Because if your natural reflex is to go into God mode and solve everybody's problems and do everybody's job for them, then that might be indicative of a deeper issue with regard to who you have on your team and who you are as a leader too.

So when we start to feel these disruptions and recognize that we want to jump in and have these conversations, this is really helping us understand why it's so important that the negotiation needs to start with ourselves.

Absolutely.

And it's a really difficult, because it requires self-awareness, right?

How am I actually showing up in conflict situations or what are my natural tendencies when it comes to managing conflict?

And it also requires us to acknowledge our ego in those moments, especially at the leadership level, and our desire to protect an image, preserve an identity or just to be the hero in a situation which not everybody needs all the time.

Yes, this is good.

And before we move on to the third step and this is probably going to be part of it too I'd love to hear your perspective on ego.

So ego is going to play a role in everything that we do.

I think it's important to have a little bit, but an ego out of control is highly problematic.

So for folks who might be saying after listening to this episode you know what?

Maybe my ego is getting in the way.

What are some pieces of advice you have for them to address that issue of ego?

Yeah.

So I'll share a little bit about why this or how this informs my practice and the work that I do.

So my background is in organizational development, change management and culture strategy.

The specialization, obviously, is in conflict resolution.

And I am a certified mediator in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

But, leading up to this, some of the things that have informed my practice and presently inform my work are I have a 200-hour yoga certification.

I don't teach.

I'm not out there teaching yoga classes, but it is something that has really informed me how I look at things like attachment detachment, ego.

And I also have gone through mindfulness-based stress reduction certification as well.

So these help me look at something like ego and ask the people who I coach or during a training what's behind.

What do you think is behind your need to step in in a situation like that? right?

Why is that important to you, who you are?

How is it tied to your identity?

And what would happen if you didn't step in?

So sometimes, based on how we ask the questions that we ask, we're able to get to what ego means for a particular individual, because ego is again one of those words that I can say ego, you can say ego, the listeners can hear the word ego.

And we all have a different idea of what that actually looks like in practice for us.

I think societally we hear the word ego and we think somebody who's kind of full of themselves or really confident, but that's not always necessarily what it means, especially in conflict situations, right?

So I think that context is important for those that I work with to understand how I approach something like that.

And then those are just a couple of questions that I ask to better understand how ego shows up differently for individuals.

Now you have me thinking for myself, I'm like, where is my ego?

This is really helpful.

And listeners.

I want you all to just appreciate the complexity of this too, because it's not an easy little one two, three checkbox to see what it is.

Oh, is my ego out of control?

Like a BuzzFeed test?

You know, it's not that simple.

It's going to be different from different people.

Different people will even describe it differently.

I'm really glad that you said that because to one person, it's like, hey, I have a healthy ego.

Another person might describe that as confident.

Another person might describe that as arrogant.

So we have to recognize what those definitions mean to you and to different people.

But then also just recognize that if our mindset is off, it's going to lead to a performance gap.

What is the genesis of this performance gap?

I'll give an example for me too.

Sometimes where I see where my ego is.

Sometimes it's in a conversation and I start to feel myself being defensive.

And I realize hmm, that's not persuasive, but I feel really, really passionate about saying this one thing right now.

What is it?

So to your question, what's behind that need to say that thing?

Hmm, I might feel the need to make the person see me as intelligent or smart or something like that.

I'm like, is that what I really need out of this conversation? conversation right now.

No, maybe I should sit back and be a bit more compassionate.

Dare I say, use some compassionate curiosity, right, in these situations.

But again, we have to recognize that sometimes the ego will manifest itself differently.

But we have to have some kind of mechanism to reverse engineer the right solution in the moment.

Absolutely.

I think that's such a great example, and I appreciate you putting it into practice for yourself.

And I think, too, ego in the an attachment to an outcome that we feel so strongly about, right?

And in mediation it's more about what is a mutually acceptable outcome not necessarily mutually beneficial, because both people may not feel like they've benefited or won at the end of it.

But detaching from the thing that we feel like is so important.

To give us a little bit of leeway, if you will, for that compassion, or to see the other perspective, to do a 180, as you might say.

Nice, i like that.

This is so good, and now i have my inspiration for a linkedin post.

I'll give you a shout out on ego and attachment.

So this is perfect.

And now let's go to number three de-escalation techniques for everyday exchanges.

This is great.

So where should we start there?

I mean, it's just a perpetual buzzword is active listening?

And active listening is a very real thing.

And I don't want to discredit active listening.

It's incredibly important.

What I like to remind people that in conflict situations, that we can be active listeners but we also can practice reflective listening or reflective acknowledgement.

So, when we are in the midst of a conflict and we are trying to shift to a place of de-escalation and And let's just create a shared understanding of what de-escalation in a particular moment

In this instance I might be talking about.

Maybe we're both in an elevated emotional state, or maybe we're talking over each other.

Maybe one person keeps interrupting the other, right?

So it can be incredibly difficult to even engage.

What I try to encourage people to do is certainly can be difficult to actively listen in that moment right.

Or to practice active listening.

And so when we talk about reflective listening, what I'm asking people to do is tap into the power of silence, right.

And I know you talk a lot about this, right?

Sometimes you don't necessarily have to say anything, and that can be a lot more powerful than talking.

And pay attention to what are they actually saying?

What are they saying is important to them?

Can I better understand their underlying feelings, interests, and needs in this particular moment?

And The silence or the quietness combined with truly allowing someone the space to talk, it can be incredibly powerful and can help really lower the emotional state of a situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Natalie, but it sounds like we're almost turning this process of listening into a meditation of sorts.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah, because it sounds like we are focusing completely on them.

So a lot of times we come in with our perspective, we come in with our positions, what we need other people to know.

But instead it seems like the first step of de-escalation is just using this reflective acknowledgement and listening in this type of way, just focusing exclusively on what they need and what they're trying to convey.

Is that a fair conceptualization of it?

I think it's 100% fair.

And I love the meditative angle because it is what we're doing.

And we are channeling that objectivity.

We're channeling our impartiality in that moment.

We're allowing ourselves to kind of zoom out of a situation, move beyond ourselves.

What are we arguing about?

What are we actually trying to solve for here?

Right?

Yeah.

And again, speaking to the ego, we have to recognize that we have assumptions, but we don't have conclusions here that are valid.

We still need their help in order to get a holistic perspective of what's happening.

We don't just come in with perfect knowledge of the situation.

They're still an active participant.

Can you tell us a bit more of the psychology behind this?

Why does this work?

Because I think there's going to be some skepticism and say Natalie, if I just sit here and listen passively, then they're going to run all over me.

So tell us what's really happening behind the scenes.

Yeah, I mean I'm not preface this by saying I'm not a psychologist, but a lot of the organizational development work that I've done is grounded in organizational behavior and organizational psychology and psychology.

At the end of the day, as humans, we're wired to connect with other humans, right?

We're not necessarily wired to tear each other apart.

That has a different place in nature, right?

But as human beings we want to connect and truly find ways to figure things out, especially in the workplace context.

Right,

We have an incentive.

We are incentivized to figure things out together.

So it becomes clear to a lot of people, especially when I'm in mediation situations, when you give someone an acknowledgement or a validation that what they're feeling is real, that what they're saying you are hearing, that the space that you have together is space that is being used for the both of you to move from me versus you to us, versus the issue that can be really meaningful.

And it creates connections that allow us to work together better moving forward.

So when we're able to move through those difficult moments, it actually equips us for the next conflict that we navigate with that person.

I talk a lot about collecting data points in the work that I do, especially in the trainings, because we are always on the lookout for whether someone has our back, whether they stick up for us.

Do they actually hear what I said in that meeting?

Did they go behind my back and say something to someone else?

Do their actions match up with their words?

All of these things.

We're constantly scanning our environments for validation that what we think about someone is correct, or things that point to.

That's not what I thought they would do, right.

And so we collect those data points.

And every data point that we collect or an experience that we have with a particular individual is one that tells us I can trust them, I can work through difficult things with them or I'm going to be a little more hesitant the next time.

I research from the Gottman Institute which, if you're probably familiar with, I'm sure.

But Gottman is marriage counseling.

But it's so appropriate, especially in the work that I do with business partners.

I think this, I hope I don't misquote it, but I think it's for every negative interaction or for every negative experience exchange that you have with a particular individual, you need at least five positive experiences or data points built up in that bank for us to be able to navigate that one negative interaction successfully. productively.

So again, kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier, how often are we focusing on building up that bank of positive experiences, those connections, in order to better manage the conflicts when they do arise?

Yeah.

Oh, that's powerful.

I could talk about Gottman and his research forever.

So good.

And Natalie, I could talk to you forever, as you can tell, because we are way over time.

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And for those folks who are listening and said, hey, listen, I need some more Natalie in my life.

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Awesome.

Natalie, thank you so much.

This was really, really great.

Thank you, Kwame.

I've really enjoyed speaking with you.

That was the first part of today's masterclass.

Up.

Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.

Let's keep it rolling.

Jean, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, it is a pleasure to have you.

And you come highly recommended from our mutual friend, Veronica Cravener.

For the listeners who don't know you yet, how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Well, I'm a commercial and insurance mediator and arbitrator.

I am based out of Los Angeles, but especially thanks to Zoom, you can mediate anywhere in the world.

I am a lawyer in Southern California and obviously, Los Angeles, but I've practiced for 37 years before I decided to go from being an advocate to a neutral, a full time.

And so I've been mediating on a full time basis since 2017.

And I love it.

It's great.

I should have done it earlier, maybe.

But whatever.

Life is great.

So it's wonderful to help people settle their disputes.

No, this is great.

And I realized as I was going through some of the episodes that I didn't have enough of my fellow mediators on the podcast.

We had a lot of lawyers, a lot of people in sales and contract negotiation, but it's really great for me as a fellow mediator to have more folks who are experts in the conflict resolution arts coming on the podcast and talking about that.

And can you set the stage for the what your typical day would look like in terms of the cases that you handle?

Well, sure.

Most cases I handle are in litigation already.

Some are pre-suit, which is great.

Get in there early and try and resolve the dispute before you have to resort to the court.

But most of my mediations are on Zoom, actually.

I have an in-person one, but that's only the second since March of 2020.

So I've had over I don't know, over 300, 350 maybe that have been on Zoom since March of 2020.

And just like this, I have the people come in at whatever the time is, the council and their parties.

We do some nice introductions.

Make sure that there is a live person that they're negotiating with, especially when companies are involved.

And then at least out of California, we tend to not do joint sessions where the parties, the lawyer, might say what their case is and the other lawyer says it.

And that's gone by the wayside, I would say, for many years here in California.

We just maybe do separate breakout rooms or, if it's in person, do different rooms and then go back and forth in the negotiations, bring the parties together.

You know that kind of thing.

But ultimately try and figure out what each party's really, what their needs are and what their wants are.

And then work on something that at the end of the day, they can leave ideally with a settlement or at least being closer to a settlement, if not that day that the stage is set for them to ultimately be in settlement or know that they can't settle and they need right now to do a summary judgment motion or fine that's what courthouses are for take it to trial or on appeal maybe you know and see what happens.

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This is great.

And a couple of things.

I want to focus on the last couple of things you just said, where you said OK, as a mediator, you're trying to find out what their needs are and what their wants are.

Really want to hammer home to the listeners that those two things are not the same. thing.

They're very different.

Even though they will be proposed to you as though everything is a need.

An expert mediator has to be able to distinguish between a want and a need.

And then going further.

I love the more realistic perspective on what's possible, because you're setting those expectations going in, because a lot of times people say all right, if i get a deal, that's a success, if i don't, that's a failure.

If i resolve the conflict, that's a success, if i don't, that's a failure.

If that's the case, then there will be very few successful people in the mediation world focusing on progress.

So yes, it'd be great if we can get a settlement, but as long as we're moving closer to a potential agreement or clarity and understanding, that's still a win.

And even if we end the mediation saying, all right, now I know for sure this is not good and settle, let's go.

That is better than before too.

Absolutely.

And clarifying facts, especially when you're in the mediation context, where you have confidentiality.

And again, every state has its own confidentiality rules and laws, so that can.

That's another whole topic for discussion at some point.

But presumably you have confidentiality on what's being said.

And so you can have that kind of discussion to clarify facts, that what may come out if you ended up in trial or not, or that can lead to a settlement where you never really thought about something the way the other side does, or vice versa.

Oh, Jean, now I have to ask this question.

And I want you to answer it from the professional side, as you as a professor and mediator, understanding that you're in the judicial process.

So there's a court there too.

But I also want to approach it from a less structured perspective, where we might not have discovery.

So what is a fact?

Oh, well, let's see.

Get Aristotle in on this.

What time a fire started?

That could be a fact.

How much was paid for this or that?

Here's an example.

I had a ransomware case that I was mediating.

Let's see.

That one was.

I think that one was already in suit.

Some of those come pre-suit.

So a ransom had been paid because of a data breach.

And attorney fees are an issue.

Well, it became clear that more information needed to be provided to the other side who was being asked to pay attorney fees, like some bills that were redacted maybe, or things like that.

That would be a fact.

What was it that the other party paid and what was charged.

So you can see what you're dealing with in terms of damages.

Now, liability, you also have factual things too.

The name of the corporate entity or not, you know?

Are they the same person or entity?

That's the insured.

Yeah.

Okay.

I wanted to see where you would go with that, because it's a strange time in the world where there is so much disagreement on what even is considered to be factual and what a fact is, what's truth, what's real and those type of things.

Yeah, think it seems like it's getting murkier and murkier.

At least in the legal world we have the benefit of discovery, or at least the threat of discovery, so even if the person isn't being forthright, we can let they know.

Hey, the truth is coming one way or another.

You could either let us know now, or it could be just a painful process and a little bit.

But in the, the real world, especially when we think about, let's say, interpersonal conflicts or workplace conflicts, We have a lot of differing perspectives.

What was said, what wasn't, what was a promise, what was just chatting without commitment, those things.

And one person's truth may not be another person's truth, you know, and of course, perspectives.

There's usually more than two sides to every story.

You know multiple sides as to what really happened and the way we perceive things, the way we actually said them, the tone of the voice.

There's so many things like that.

If it's that kind of a case and some of the employment cases are a good example you probably will never get the parties to agree on what really happened, because what they perceived, what they observed, what they experienced, is their experience, is what they believe to be the truth, so to speak.

And the truth might not be the proper words to use there, the phrase and the same with the other side.

But then I will use a lot of the types of approaches of look.

You're just going to have to agree to disagree.

You're never going to convince them of...

X and they're never going to convince you of Y. So let's just accept that for what it is.

But you're in litigation or you've got this dispute that's going to go to litigation or arbitration if you don't resolve it.

And I promise you, if you settle this today, when you wake up in the morning you will feel a load off your shoulders.

You can get on with living your life, get on with your business, you know, whatever it is, those kinds of things.

I've even used once in a I'm not sure I would do it again.

It would depend on probably, the ages of the people in fall, because they might not know what I was talking about.

But in a sexual harassment case once and I was talking to the claimant wonderful, very nice person.

But as an example to emphasize this, asked if she'd ever seen that movie South Pacific, and that song of.

I just want to wash that man right out of my hair.

You're not even familiar with it probably, but-

That or, you know, just I use song lyrics a lot.

Even the Rolling Stones, you can't always get what you want.

So, you know, let's see what we can get.

Just different things like that.

People usually laugh when those kinds of things are said.

No, that's good.

And breaking the tension in a mediation can work wonders with humor.

And that can really get people to feel a lot more comfortable engaging with you.

And I really appreciate the fact that you said sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, because sometimes, a lot of times, we go into these conversations thinking that we are the sole arbiter of truth in the interaction.

And our only goal is to get the other person to see things our way.

And that's our only path to victory, which is in many cases, a complete impossibility.

But just getting okay, you see things one way, I see things another way.

And, based on your perspective and my perspective and our experiences, we're just not going to agree on this.

But can we find a way to move forward even though we don't agree on this little part of the overall interaction?

And I think coming to terms with that and being transparent with that reality can help people to move forward and still engage in the process, even if the other person isn't seeing exactly eye to is.

I mean, unless you're in a relationship, you know whether it's family friends, business partner, you know something like that where it's personal.

If it's not, if it's a car crash or a you know defective product or something like that, you're probably never going to have to see that person again.

Even if it's a personal thing, maybe you're both going to go your own way.

And, just knowing that, get this off your plate, get it out of your head and, You know, think of all the stress this is causing you and you'll never have to see this person again.

I mean, that freedom is an amazingly wonderful thing or can be a wonderful thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think we get so caught up in the fog of war sometimes that we lose sight of the, the relief we will feel once we put this behind us.

Like you said, it's a weight on our shoulders.

It holds us back.

And I think we also fail to appreciate the impact it has on the people around us.

If we are stuck in litigation and this massive conflict, it's not just you, it's your partner at home, it's your family and friends.

They're all experiencing it because you're not at your best when you feel like you're just at war all the time.

And just making sure that you continue to have that perspective of hope and there's something on the other side can help people reorient during the conflict and focus more on what they can do in this moment to move forward, rather than vilifying and breaking down the other side in a way that doesn't lead to agreement.

Right.

Whether it's a lawsuit or just a dispute.

Think of how negative it is to be in litigation because you, if you're the plaintiff, feel that you were wronged in some way and you need whatever the lawsuit can bring for you for satisfaction.

And I'm not saying that that's not appropriate.

It can be very appropriate.

But most cases settle.

Most lawsuits do not go to trial.

So it's so much better to recognize that earlier than later.

Think of that Gwyneth Paltrow case that was just in Where were they?

Utah, I think.

And there was an interview of the plaintiff afterwards, and he was quoted on the news.

He was asked, was it worth it?

And he said, absolutely not.

No.

I think, perhaps because I was a practicing attorney for so many years and the you know the stress of prepping for trial, the invasiveness, if you will, of answering discovery, going to a deposition.

You know all these things that your life is not your own if you're in litigation.

And again, courthouses are there for a wonderful purpose, and I'm not demeaning that at all or minimizing that at all.

And that's our.

You know, hopefully our justice or civil litigation is different obviously, than the criminal.

But recognizing that most lawsuits do not go to trial.

If you can possibly settle it, or if you at least explore settlement.

I think it's wrong not to explore settlement early and maybe, but at least early.

And then again, on the courthouse steps, if you've gone that far.

Agreed, agreed.

And one of the things that we talked about before is the importance of pre-mediation preparation.

And I know the basics of pre-mediation preparation are going to be similar to what you would need to do to prepare for a negotiation.

And I think it would be really helpful to give listeners an idea of what you go through before the mediation to put yourself in a position to be successful in the actual negotiation.

Well, one of the things I think that is so important and this is only since I became a full-time mediator, in fact on the United States Federal Court Central District for California, on their ADR panel.

And they do require that the mediator and the parties, whether jointly or separately, hold pre-mediation conference calls.

Now, when I was in practice, we never did that.

Somewhere along the line, that started to become a thing.

And now almost every mediator I know does that.

But I think that is so important.

In fact, I had one call this morning before we started this, and I've got another one after we're finished.

And what that does is I talk privately to each side.

I will be.

I'm happy to talk to them jointly, the council jointly, but most of the time they prefer just to talk with each council separately.

But it gives a chance where they've already submitted a mediation brief or a mediation letter, to let me know what's happening.

I've read it.

It can kind of drill down, you know, distill what the crux of the issue might be and what documentation do they have.

Maybe that will help.

You know, help convince someone of this or of that, or support their position or contradict the other party's position.

Again, it comes back to establishing facts, I suppose, you know, as much as possible.

And so that's important.

The pre-mediation brief of some sort is important.

But it's very important that the attorneys talk to their clients in depth and properly prepare their clients for mediation.

And I would say even go so far as to say, prepare the other side for the mediation.

There's one plaintiff lawyer who recently was giving a presentation and he pointed it out and he's a plaintiff personal injury lawyer that he makes sure to share the mediation brief with the other side about a month in advance, because in his cases there are always well generally, there's no absolutes right.

So generally, there will be an insurance company on the other side who's provided the defense in these personal injury cases for whoever the defendant might be.

And he knows that the not just the lawyer defense lawyer but the insurance company will need time to review the position.

Maybe they round table it.

But both sides need time to prepare themselves as lawyers, reasonably evaluated, find out what judgment potentials might be in that area of the country for that type of case and then come in.

So by the time I'm getting it, I'm talking to them in a way that Ideally they've done that homework and, if not, maybe suggesting some of the homework that they could do, based on my fresh eyes looking at the case.

You know, and ask a lot of questions.

Yeah.

Oh, this is great.

So let me provide a bit of a summary here.

So in the pre-mediation process, some of the things we talk about are first reading the pre-mediation letter or brief drilling down to the crux of the matter for both of the parties, getting documents data, evidence and other supporting information to support or substantiate the points that they're making.

Hopefully the lawyer preps their client for the mediation and preferably they also prep the other side as well.

And it could all happen a month in advance or more.

And I think for a lot of people, when they think about the preparation that will go into it, they would think about you in your office, kind of by yourself, reviewing the case files and things like that more of a solitary approach.

But really it seems like this is almost a more collaborative approach to preparation before the actual mediation.

I haven't thought of it that way, but it probably really is.

And when I do say prep the other side, I'm not picturing one lawyer telling the other lawyer what to think or whatever, but just making sure the other side understands the your position and the reasons for your position, and vice versa.

You know, that kind of thing.

Communicating.

Talking as a.

When I have these calls with the lawyers, I want to know have they had any communications with the other lawyer about settlement yet?

You know, what's the mood of the case?

You know, are the lawyers cooperative with each other?

Is it a contentious case?

What do they think might settle it?

There's all sorts of things, all sorts of questions you can ask.

Yeah.

Oh, this is great.

This is great.

One of the other things that we mentioned when we were in our pre-interview phase, our pre-interview prep, we were talking about power of using bracketing or ranges in these types of mediations and negotiation.

And so can you paint a picture of what that means practically speaking, and then talk about how it actually applies to you in your mediations?

Sure.

There are probably as many definitions of bracketing in mediation as there are mediators.

Okay.

But that said, you know, in mediation you would go back and forth generally and offer or demand, start with the demand and then an offer and a demand and an offer.

And maybe you're making small changes.

You know smaller progress and it's like how long is it going to take to get to what I call the dance floor, where you're in the realm of reasonableness, that for the final dance floor.

I mean, certainly if someone is way out here in the insult zone and someone is over here in the credible zone, that's great, you know.

But you've got to inch them a little, keep inching them closer together.

And so bracketing is a way of where and again there's so many ways of doing it.

But in a more traditional way, lots of times it's phrased look, if they will go to X, we will go to Y, And so you've got X and Y.

So maybe it's 50000 and 100000 for round numbers for the bracket within which you will then negotiate.

And then you could keep doing that kind of thing.

And those are not real offers or demand, so to speak.

They're what I call ifs, you know, kind of like if look, if they would go to something in this range.

I personally don't like the phrase bracketing so much as I like ranges.

Because as I do say to people, I must say, Who in America likes to be told what to do?

Nobody.

You know.

So when the old traditional way of saying look, if they go to twenty five thousand, then we'll go to a gazillion, you know, or whatever it might be, a hundred thousand,

And it's like, no, no, no.

I do not encourage people to try and tell the other side where they need to go, but rather what would be a reasonable range that you think this case should settle in.

And then that forms a bracket, so to speak, and maybe then go to the other side, see what theirs is.

Maybe they overlap, you know, maybe using this example of 50 to 100. maybe someone's at 75 to 150.

So you see you've got a $25,000 overlap in there.

It's a way to have hypotheticals, offers and demands, but narrow it.

So then someone can actually say, okay, I'll make a concrete demand or I'll make a concrete offer.

Look, we'll do whatever, because everybody sees the way it's going and it does shorten the negotiations.

But there are lots of rules for rules, quote unquote, bracketing.

And you know like if you've got a bracket this much, then you should never go down below what you said would be your low end or your high end.

Don't go above your high end, depending on which side you're on.

And that I personally, like I said, I prefer to deal in the ifs.

Look, if they would go here, would you go there?

Or can I propose this as a bracket?

Because that's a phrase people are familiar with, but explain that I look at it as a range, things like that

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

And essentially what we're doing is we're setting, Like you said, the playing field, the dance floor, what's realistic?

Let's agree to only play within this range, so we don't waste time insulting each other offers that are way outside of the realm of possibility.

And as a mediator, you have a great opportunity to get a little bit more candor and vulnerability from the parties when you're using shuttle diplomacy, interacting with each person individually, going back and forth so they're not posturing in front of other people.

In a negotiation...

When you think about utilizing this type of strategy with ranges.

What would that look like in a more traditional negotiation setting?

I think it's probably a matter of knowing where you want to be.

And it's true for anything, of course.

Where do you want to end up or where will you not go over?

Where's your tipping point that you won't exceed?

That puts a bracket in your mind already.

So if someone had offered 100000 and someone had demanded 100 and offered 50 well, that's your bracket.

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

And I know there have been times where I've used a range, kind of like a soft anchor, where I might say well, depending on the entire package that we're talking about, I could see this falling between this and that.

In general,

And I kind of say it like that.

And I think it's more just recognizing that we could use that methodology in a bit more of a concrete, established manner within a mediation, especially as a mediator, because you have that authority to kind of set the stage and the ground rules for the whole interaction.

In a negotiation where we're both more or less on the same playing field in terms of you're a negotiator, I'm a negotiator, leverage might differ.

More or less, we're both negotiators here.

It's harder to establish a range and say hey, your offers don't go both ways above this or anything like that.

That's tough to do, but just starting off and saying it's making your offer especially if you you have some questions where you're not 100 sure saying, all right, it based on what we need.

And after hearing your perspective, it seems like we something in the range of this to that might be realistic.

I want to see how that lands with you.

You could use that as an opportunity to gather some information in that situation.

Absolutely.

That'd be a great use of it.

And, of course, keep in mind that it's not always about the money, is also very often about the non-financial aspects of it.

Uh, You know, how you leave a person being perceived or for themselves or whatever.

One of my friends once settled a case where a child had died.

This was in Louisiana.

And anyway, for that family, of course, no money.

And that's true in any loss of a life or a major injury or whatever.

No amount of money can bring that person back to life or maybe at all properly compensate for the loss.

But that's what we have in our world to use.

But what this family ended up settling for, I mean, they arranged for some money thing, obviously.

But a family a week for the family with the other siblings who were still there lost their sibling, and the parents and the children to go to Disney World for a week and have that time together as a family together.

And they were very grateful for that.

Wow.

That's incredible.

That is incredible.

I appreciate you sharing that.

And again, it just shows the power of empathy blended with creativity in a negotiation.

We cannot bring back the child, but we can help you to create a memory with other members of your family.

That's really powerful.

Right.

And finding joy again in their lives.

Maybe you know, but empathy and creativity are key, I think, for any mediator and really for any negotiator.

Absolutely.

Jean, this was great.

I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your expertise with us.

Again, it's always great to have another mediator on the show.

It's nice to meet you.

Yes, likewise.

And before you go, please remind the listeners about what you do and how they can get in touch.

Sure.

My website is Lawler, L-A-W-L-E-R-A-D-R dot com.

And I'm on LinkedIn and I've got Roads to Resolution, Closure and Certainty.

That's a podcast and a YouTube videos podcast.

So feel free to get in touch with me at all.

And I would just suggest that if you are interested in other types of programs like this at no cost, in addition to the ones that you would see here, maybe check out We'll Work for Food, the New Possibilities Hour we'llworkforfoodnews, amazing programs, all things food negotiation, life and various things.

And there is no charge.

It's only asked that a donation, if you're able, and if you're not, no one's keeping chaps.

So if you're able to make a donation to a food bank.

And so far almost 400000 has been raised, of which we've been told, and that's over 4 million meals.

And this was started during the Locked down in Normandy, France at the time.

And then Jeff Kachaven, a mediator here in Los Angeles, and I co-moderate.

Sari Agamiri, always, she schedules things.

And she is living in Canada.

So it's quite international.

This is great.

Yes, everybody check that out.

We'll have links in the description for all of those things. website.

We have Jean's website so you can check out her ADR offerings, and then also we'll work for food as well.

I think that's a great opportunity and I appreciate you bringing it up and sharing it, because food insecurity is important everywhere.

And I don't think enough people really understand how serious that is.

So I appreciate all of the work you do.

And thanks again for coming on the pod.

Thank you so much.

It's a pleasure being here with you today and kudos to you for what you're doing.

This is great.

Thank you.

You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next.

A fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding.

Thanks for joining us today.

Oh, hey, thank you for having me.

It is my pleasure.

So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Well, yeah, I'm a mediator and arbitrator.

So I am a professional peacekeeper and I live in Atlanta Georgia, and I work with my specialty difficult personalities.

So that's people always ask me, what kind of mediations do you do?

Anything and everything.

I work really well with emotional people, angry people, crying people.

I don't know why, but it seems to be my superpower.

Okay, so we're going to dig into this first.

Okay, so how would you define a difficult personality?

Just someone who's not readily available, willing to negotiate or is negotiating from their heart and not their head?

Negotiating from a place of hurt instead of focusing on the business aspect, making a smart decision and not necessarily trying to punish their opponents.

Now, as everybody in the audience slowly gets flashbacks, can you give an example of somebody who kind of fits that build?

No names, of course, but give us a picture of the type of person you typically deal with.

Oh, my.

I can go on and on.

I will often have folks who are just very dug in in their own opinion who, no matter what you say to them, will just repeat back what they've already said to you.

It's hard to break them from that.

You know, they're not really listening.

They are angry and personally offended about everything that happens with the other parties, to the point where it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

And that I will spend a lot of time kind of digging into perhaps why they're like that, how they got that way.

I'll give you one quick example.

I had a man who just was mad.

He's just mad.

So I generally have a pretty relaxed kind of calming presence.

So people are not typically just angry around me.

He was, he was just furious.

You know, it's 10 o'clock in the morning, honey, what happened?

What are you mad about already?

And so you know, realizing that about him, we just were trying to have a conversation, just trying to chat him up a bit, kind of ease him into the day.

So I asked him about what he did over the weekend.

And he told me he got his final divorce decree in the mail.

Well, there we go.

I see why you're unhappy today, sir.

So those are the kinds of things that I will deal with.

So people who typically are upset about something and it's being manifested in a strange way in their negotiation.

Now, sometimes they're legitimately upset about what's happened in the lawsuit, of course, but often they are not.

And I deal really well with that.

This is perfect.

I love this response because I think we can all identify and relate with this type of situation, because we've all had situations where somebody is emotional and they might seem irrational and things like that.

And I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about this question.

It was my favorite question yesterday.

I was doing a keynote in Corvallis, Oregon, a city I did not know existed until I arrived.

And It's new to me.

Apparently, that's where Oregon State is.

So now it makes sense.

But somebody said, what do you do with somebody who is irrational in a negotiation?

And so how would you answer that question?

I let them talk.

I just let them talk, because eventually they will get to the point where they're giving you some real information.

You know, people who are are not rational are not rational.

So there's.

They may be talking about all kinds of random things or simply repeating themselves, but given enough time, people will fill the empty space.

And you'll finally get some information.

So that's typically what I do is just encourage them to talk.

So

I tell people when we start the day, I'm never, ever going to interrupt you.

Today is about you.

So I need to know what you're thinking, how you're feeling, how things are going for you in the moment.

You just let me know whatever you want to talk about.

If you want to talk about handbags, we can talk about handbags for a while.

You pay me by the hour, so maybe you don't want to do that, but we could if you want.

And then we just kind of get going.

Focusing on how they feel and less about what they say is super helpful as well.

Because at the end of the day, with the kinds of cases that I work on, the law is the law.

We're going to apply the facts to the law and we're going to get the same answer eight out of 10 times.

It just is what it is.

It's a matter of walking someone from A to Z, right?

So however we get there doesn't necessarily matter.

We can be very creative in the middle.

We got to get them there.

I love this response.

Yeah, the exact same way.

And I laughed when I got that question because I said I mean, you are lucky if you're dealing with anybody rational in these difficult conversations.

I don't expect rationality in these conversations, but I'm glad when I get it.

And you're absolutely right.

Letting them talk and eventually something relevant will come up.

And in order to do that, it seems like, you tell me what you think about this.

Number one.

It takes a lot of patience because it will take sometimes a lot of time to get to that relevant detail.

And then number two it takes a lot of faith in your own skillset, because this isn't something that was specifically planned.

We didn't say well, they'll say this irrational thing which would lead to this thought that is completely irrelevant.

We didn't see that coming.

But you have to have faith in your skill set to say whatever it is that they say.

I know that I have the skills to navigate the conversation effectively.

And so let's address the mindset first.

A lot of times people are really busy and they can feel that pressure, that time pressure in those conversations.

What would you say to somebody who is a busy professional and they're dealing with somebody who is irrational?

They know that the best strategy is to let them talk and listen, but they don't know how to do that and still respect their own time.

Oh, I used to be like that.

I used to be one of those people before I was a mediator.

So I completely get that.

And it is.

It's hard, you know, especially if you are a working litigator and you know you're thinking about your time in six minute increments.

I mean I'd be sitting with my husband like watching the clock like sir, this was a point one.

Get to the point.

I think you have to keep in mind that the better the other person feels, the better the result.

So it's worth putting in the time when it is necessary on the front end.

Trying to rush somebody trying to push them along, it really doesn't help.

It's more of a hindrance for you at the end.

And so if you can just stop, give them some space, you will help yourself immensely on the back end.

And I see that all the time with folks.

You know lawyers would want to rush their clients who's the actual party?

Right to the litigation office.

And I'll pull them aside and say, that's not helping.

For whatever reason, they just need more time to process it.

Just let it happen.

Let it flow.

It'll work.

Yeah, I agree.

And it's like Newton's law.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

And sometimes the harder we push, the more they resist.

And thinking of it in terms of an investment helps us to say all right, I am going to invest this time now in this conversation, because I know that I'll get this time back, because they'll be in a better mindset and be better able to process this conversation too.

Absolutely.

And I believe...

Well, I'll say don't quote me, but here we go.

Well, I believe it was Maya Angelou who said that people will not remember necessarily what you said, but more of how you made them feel.

And so if you can make someone feel good, no matter what has happened in the conversation, you will get better results out of them afterward, because they're feeling positively about you and themselves.

Agreed.

And now let me challenge you.

You, by channeling somebody in my audience, I can hear somebody driving in their car.

Their brow is furrowed.

They don't like what they're hearing.

They're like, but I am busy.

These are facts.

Like you said, this is about the law.

It's about reality.

It's about facts.

I don't have time to waste just playing with people's feelings.

They should get on the same page.

And so what would you say to that person?

That listening to someone's feelings is not a waste of time period.

That is just something you're going to have to learn and accept.

There's no way around it.

The more you push someone who is not emotionally ready to move on or make a decision, the more dug in they get, the worse it becomes for you.

It's just like we were talking about, like you have to stop.

You don't have time to not stop.

I was just thinking.

As you were saying, you and I both have studied ADR, Alternative Dispute Resolution.

We know these processes and everything.

Now that I think about it, there's no negotiation methodology that's like this guarantees quick deals and you don't need to listen to anybody and you can just bully through the conversation.

It doesn't exist.

Anybody who says that exists is lying.

Exactly.

No, I'm with you.

And I think it's so important.

And listeners, I want you to recognize this important point here.

Right now.

Thus far, we've talked about more, so process and mindset, the mentality that you take into these conversations.

And a lot of times we focus so much on tactics and strategies that we miss this human element.

And forget the power of simply listening and empathizing and taking the time to show that respect to somebody.

Again, just setting that stage is really the foundation for persuasion.

Amen.

I love that.

I love the way you said that.

Thank you.

I was reading.

I have cue cards.

People can't see it.

Well, I'm convinced and it was fab.

Thank you.

Well, let's talk about your methodologies. cornerstones of mediation.

Can you tell us about that?

Yes.

Yeah.

So the four cornerstones are emotional intelligence, cultural knowledge, cultural immersion and genuine empathy.

So I came up with these as a pretty new mediator.

So I was very gratefully.

I should like, I don't know, pat myself on the back something, but I was very busy to start And you know I did.

I have that kind of impatient mindset, you know, kind of still in the back of my, in the back of my mind.

But I realized pretty quickly that that wasn't going to work.

These were the things that I needed to be focused on.

And when I did focus on all four of those things, it was a game changer.

It was a game changer.

I started seeing a lot of breakthroughs. and folks that I might not otherwise have seen.

So when you talk about really dealing with that human element, that's what this is about.

Oh, I am intrigued.

Where do I start?

Let's start off with, let's just go straight through the four.

So emotional intelligence.

So emotional intelligence we hear about it pretty commonly these days, but I think a lot of people don't really understand what it is.

So it's about how you see yourself and whether you understand how you and your actions implicate the world and have an effect on the people around you.

So do you understand how you feel?

Are you using your emotions to properly guide you through the world?

And do you understand how what you're doing impacts other people?

I think it's pretty safe to say that people don't understand that.

This is great.

When you talk about long haul learning, that's what this is.

Yes.

Oh, this is very Sounds like self-awareness understanding yourself and that incorporates emotion management, but just also emotional awareness, just knowing where you are, your own emotional temperature.

And now this last one, the effect of your words and actions on others.

I think-

If we think about it in a surface level, people would say, why is that hard for people to get?

But what is it that makes it difficult for us to fully appreciate the effects of our words and actions on others?

Because we can only see the world through our own personal lens.

You know, I am winter.

I'm a Black woman of a certain age.

I got four kids and that's how I see everything for the most part.

So if I'm not at work, I don't have my mediator hat on.

I'm just kind of walking through life as me.

I'm not necessarily thinking about how the car next to me doesn't like that I cut them off.

Like I'm not worried about it.

Right.

So it takes some effort.

You have to put in some extra effort and it can be, it can be exhausting to really step outside yourself.

And focus on how other people might be feeling.

And it becomes exceptionally difficult because so few people actually do it, right?

So I'm constantly having to kind of gauge everyone around me and behave accordingly.

This is so good.

And you hit the nail on the head.

It just takes effort.

And a lot of times we're so busy.

We have so many things in our head that we just don't take the time to think.

I wonder... how this impacted somebody else.

And I think, tell me what you think about this.

If we take confirmation bias and self-serving bias, we don't want to think that we're having a negative impact on other people.

So we don't even consider that.

Oh, for sure.

We all want to believe that we are great people.

We are good people.

We are kind people.

Really at the end of the day, we may not be, but-

We do the best we can.

At least I think that's how I look at it.

I make the best decisions I can with the information that I have.

And ultimately, of course, you have you have to keep your best interest at heart.

And so sometimes that's not good for other people.

But you'll have to know that it's not good for other people.

No, that is great.

And let's move on to the next one.

Cultural knowledge.

Tell us about that one.

So that is pretty straightforward.

So cultural knowledge is, I mean, pick up a book and learn about the people around you.

So I live in Atlanta.

We have folks from all over the world here, but I don't know.

I guess right, wrong or otherwise, folks like to congregate right into their little groups.

And they'll live in certain pockets of town.

But as a mediator and needing to be neutral and, have you know, have everyone come to the table on equal footing with me.

I need to know a little bit about everybody.

So like I said before, my personal lens is Black woman.

So if someone is not that, I still need to be able to understand them and to help them.

So I see a lot of folks who are Vietnamese, for example.

So what do I do?

I will pick up a book and learn more about culture and history just to get a baseline.

You know you don't want to do something as simple as you know, shaking someone's hand when in their culture that's rude.

Well, you've screwed it up already.

Yes.

And you're so right.

I remember one of the because I mediated for a while.

And I remember one time I was I reached out to shake a woman's hand and she didn't reach back out.

And in her the brand of Islam that she practiced, that it was not appropriate for me to try to shake her hand.

And so thankfully there was an interpreter there who explained that to me.

But you know, I just went in with my cultural lens on and I didn't even, I didn't stop and think.

And I think a lot of times, when it comes to cultural intelligence, it really just comes down to simply knowing when to pause and ask yourself what is the best thing to do in this situation.

Otherwise, we just flow through on autopilot.

Kwame, American, Caribbean American, we all shake hands.

Boom, right there.

That's how I show respect.

And it's like coming in as a cultural attack in that way.

I guess I just got lucky that you related to that.

Yeah, it was good.

It was good.

I think about that one all the time because we're doing there's a cultural intelligence module in our course in Negotiable.

And I was thinking about some of those experiences that I had.

And again, this is going to happen.

And reading books, there's a great option.

Thinking about watching movies, that's another good option.

Just think of imagine going to a Vietnamese restaurant, like an authentic Vietnamese restaurant.

Right.

And those type of things are great ways to experience different cultures and learn.

Right.

And I use that example a lot to go to the restaurant and sit and be quiet.

Don't go in like, you know, forcing folks to try to talk to you, right?

Go in and watch.

You learn a lot just by watching.

Absolutely.

And I'm assuming, but I want to ask is that what you mean by cultural immersion, which is the third pillar?

It sure is.

There's a gold star with your name on it.

I love it.

So tell us more about that.

Well, yeah.

So That's really important.

That's when you put your knowledge into action and that's how you remember it and make it part of who you are.

So when I was in college, I did a year abroad in Madrid.

So that was as immersive as it could have been.

I went to a Spanish university.

I lived with a Spanish family.

I did all the things.

And so I learned more than I ever could have picked up from a book.

You know, and so that for me was key.

It was totally clutch.

Can I say totally clutch on your?

Absolutely.

I endorse totally clutch.

And I love that example too, because the interesting thing is that the Spanish culture in Madrid is different from Latin American culture as well, because I studied in Ecuador.

And the person that I went with.

He actually lived in Spain for years and he was talking about how challenging it was culturally to make that shift to living in Latin America versus living in Spain.

And it's just interesting to see as you get deeper into these cultures, you start to be able to see like the differences intraculturally as well, because from the outside looking in, you might just say Spanish.

Very different.

Yeah, it's very, very true.

You know, I'm from Miami.

So, you know, I'm very familiar with folks from all over Latin America.

Very different from Spaniards.

Very different.

Definitely.

And then now I think this is so interesting because you didn't just say empathy, you added a modifier and you said genuine empathy.

So what does, what does that modifier do?

Well, I think a lot of people will pretend that they care or they'll sit and kind of nod at you.

Yeah, I got it.

I'm listening.

People can pick up on whether or Absolutely.

No, they may not be able to singularly pinpoint it or what it was, but they'll have a weird feeling about it.

And it doesn't work.

It doesn't penetrate.

You know back in the day you know three years ago that I created this.

Back in the day, when I originally created it, I did think that empathy was something that you just had or you didn't have.

I think to a certain extent, that is true.

I think if you work on it, if you are intentional in it, you can become more empathetic.

I am an empath.

So I think that's where that that's my own lens.

You see how that works.

It's everywhere.

So being an empath.

It is very easy for me to show genuine empathy.

And so I can also very easily pick up when other people are not genuine.

And I see that in other folks where they're not an empath, but they're intuitive.

We're all intuitive no matter what.

I agree.

I love this.

And now again, let's speak to the skeptics in the crowd, or the people who simply don't identify as an empath.

So let's say somebody says, listen, I have never in my life felt empathetic.

They're out there.

That is just not me.

But I do want to be more effective.

And I recognize that empathy is a skill.

If I don't feel empathetic, how can I still generate genuine empathy?

Well, there's a certain amount of willingness to listen and understand that other people can feel differently.

You don't have to feel it know, other people can have a different experience from you.

I think we are missing that in most of American society, where people don't care about things unless it directly affects them.

And so we need to spread empathy all over the land.

I agree.

And I think this is such a powerful point.

You said understand that other people can feel differently and that's OK.

Right.

We don't have a monopoly on the correct feelings to experience in this moment.

Right.

And I think that's so important because again somebody might say well, I'm not feeling empathetic, so I can't, I don't have it today.

But as long as you respect the other person enough to recognize and acknowledge hey, you might feel differently.

And in order for us to be successful in this conversation, I need to take the time to understand that.

I don't need to like emotionally feel touchy feely.

Oh, my gosh, Winter, I hope you're OK.

It's not something like that.

It could just be simply enough.

Like, I see we're in this situation.

We're in this conversation together.

And the only way that we can be successful is if we take the time to understand.

So tell me about what you're experiencing.

And then you can say a whole bunch of touchy feely things that I cannot understand.

I cannot identify with.

But as long as I take the time to listen and show that I understand and be patient enough to genuinely demonstrate that understanding to the other side, like that alone goes a really long way.

One thousand percent.

You know, just last week I had a situation where we'd been going for like seven hours in this mediation and we were getting nowhere, but nobody wanted to give up.

So we at least had that going for us.

And eventually I said to one of the parties is there a universe in your mind that you can imagine where someone may not agree with you?

Is that possible?

Can you understand that that is a reality?

The answer was no.

They literally responded no.

There's no way someone could disagree with me.

I said, well, I have to be honest with you because I think we're at that point.

I disagree with you.

I personally disagree with you.

Now, as your mediator, I'm going to let you know again the folks in that room disagree with you too.

So if we went before a jury, you could have people who agree and disagree.

They're not all going to agree with you.

That will never happen in the history of anything that 12 random folks from whatever part of the country are all going to agree with one thing wholeheartedly

It's just not going to happen.

So it was very, very strange how that went down.

But once we, you know, I got them to admit that they really just could not fathom that someone could disagree with them.

Like it just seems so irrational and crazy.

I was able to back them up and tell them, you know, logically that, Like, I understand you.

I hear what you're saying.

You really believe this to be true, but not everyone does.

And so whether you think that it's okay or not, this is where we are.

So, in order to eliminate some risk, let's go ahead and concede on a few points, just to get past the hurdle.

And it worked.

We got it settled.

That's so interesting.

I say we, I'm taking the credit though.

So I'm just going to say me.

I did it.

Good.

Take that win.

I love that.

And I think listeners, we have to understand the nuance of this because this was exceptional.

Because think about this.

Sometimes people can agree to disagree.

And in this situation, this person wasn't even agreeing to disagree, right?

Which is a pretty wild circumstance.

And so, even though the person could not fathom that other people saw the world differently, they could, or let me let me rephrase that they couldn't fathom how somebody could see the world differently, but they could understand the reality that other people saw the world differently, and just that little nuance was enough to move things forward.

Because a lot of times we get stuck on these points where we feel like common ground means that I need you to agree with me on this point and we get needlessly stuck.

And then we need to recognize that, instead of thinking about it in terms of common ground, if we start thinking about it in terms of common understanding.

I understand what you think and what you believe and how you got there.

I might disagree, but I can understand that.

And then we take the time.

You reciprocate by saying okay, now I can understand what you believe and how you got there.

I disagree.

We can now move beyond that point and figure out what the agreement looks like going forward.

That's so powerful.

Nail on the head right there.

Yeah, for sure.

I love it.

Listen, let's end with some positive momentum.

I'm about to shift into parenting mode.

So, you know, I need to take my wins when I can get it.

Because you're about to get beat up.

I know, I know.

Winter, I really appreciate you spending time with us today.

Before you go, can you remind the listeners about your practice and how they can get in touch with you?

Look me up anywhere.

Thankfully, I have this very unusual name.

I shouldn't say unusual.

I should just say gorgeous name.

Okay.

The easiest way to find me is winterwheeler.com.

You can find me on LinkedIn.

I'm pretty active there.

I'm the only Winter Wheeler.

Thank you.

[Mastering Conflict: Strategies from Professional Mediators]-[The Hidden Cost of Unresolved Disagreements]

📋 Summary

Mastering Conflict: A Masterclass in Professional Mediation

1. Rehumanizing the Adversary

2. Executive Leadership and Conflict Avoidance

3. Distinguishing Wants from Needs

4. Embracing the 'Irrational' Participant

Conclusion: The Foundation of Persuasion

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[Mastering Conflict: Strategies from Professional Mediators]-[The Hidden Cost of Unresolved Disagreements]

📋 Summary

Mastering Conflict: A Masterclass in Professional Mediation

1. Rehumanizing the Adversary

2. Executive Leadership and Conflict Avoidance

3. Distinguishing Wants from Needs

4. Embracing the 'Irrational' Participant

Conclusion: The Foundation of Persuasion

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🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

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