Natalie, thanks for joining us today.
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
I've been looking forward to this.
Yeah, it's our pleasure.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Well, my name is Natalie Liu.
I live in South East London in the UK and I have been writing about relationships and self-esteem for over 16 years on my website, BaggageReclaimcom.
And from there I've, then I've had e-courses and books and I do a podcast called the Baggage Reclaim Sessions.
And all of my work is really about helping people to reclaim themselves from their emotional baggage.
And so a lot of my work is with people who identify with people pleasing perfectionism and overthinking and these habits then interfering with their ability to have healthy relationships and, to you know, have fulfilling careers and also actually just to like themselves and the life that they're living.
And yeah, so I do that through primarily really through the website and through the podcast.
And it's very much really from sharing lessons that I've learned along the way through my own experiences.
I basically experienced somewhat of a personal transformation and an epiphany, an awakening.
And I really endeavored to give back over the last 16 or so years, because there's a lot of me's out there basically.
Right.
And I can respect your work because for the listeners out there, who who listen to the TED talk or read my book, they know I'm a recovering people pleaser too.
And so it's great to have you on as an expert in this field.
And so can you share a bit more about how you were able to overcome this and how it's really changed your life?
Yeah well, you know, as you know, I really, you know I very much embrace being a recovering people pleaser because it's, you know, it's a work in progress.
As I said, I started baggage reclaim just over 15 years ago, not 16 years ago.
I've been writing for 16 years, but 15 years of baggage reclaim.
But I was somebody who was in a lot of.
I was only ever in relationships with emotionally unavailable men.
These relationships were often ambiguous, sometimes very unhealthy, to the point of being somewhat abusive or definitely abusive.
And I also was a perfectionist at work and I found that I was never really myself.
And in the summer of 2005, when I'd been writing for about a year on my then personal blog, I was very unwell with a mystery immune system disease called sarcoidosis.
And At that point in my life they were basically telling me well, I know you've just spent a year on steroids for this particular illness, but it looks like it hasn't gone away.
So you'll have to go on steroids for life.
And at the same time, a few months before I'd finished being involved with a co-worker who had a girlfriend.
I had then started dating somebody else who was emotionally unavailable.
It was exhausting.
I was exhausted at work.
I was exhausted from being unwell.
And that day when the doctor said to me well, you're going to have to go on steroids for life or basically be dead by 40, you know, from pulmonary heart failure.
In that moment, as I sat in there, I experienced this.
It was I just felt this sort of shift.
It suddenly occurred to me like wow, like you spend your whole life basically doing what everybody expects of you.
You do what people tell you.
You do what they expect of you.
Parents, co-workers, boyfriends, whatever, even if it makes you miserable.
And here you are after a year of taking steroids and it hasn't even worked.
And now after doing everything, you're going to have to go on for them, go on them for life.
And I heard myself saying no.
It felt like a bit of an out of body experience.
And he was looking at me like, what?
And from that day, you know, I left there and, you know, embarked on exploring other options, obviously from a safe place of knowing that I had my appointments every few months at the hospital.
And I heard a word within about a week or two of that journey, which was boundaries.
And I was told that you know as much as I can eat healthier foods and drink plenty of water and exercise.
That's only going to go so far if I don't actually have any boundaries.
And I used talking out loud on my website, Baggage Reclaim, which I started shortly after.
I had this epiphany.
I was like, I'm only ever involved with emotionally unavailable men.
And it is because of my self-hate, my self-dislike habits that I've learned through childhood always about pleasing others.
And these awakenings that I shared out loud with people I always thought I was weird, Kwame.
I always thought I was a weirdo.
I was like, well, I do these things because I'm not good enough.
I do these things because I'm weird.
I do these things because I'm damaged goods.
My parents broke up when I was two and a half, whatever it might be.
And then when you hear people come back at you and go, oh my God, you're talking about me.
Oh my gosh, you're describing my life.
Oh my gosh, this is my experience.
I was like, ah, there's something here.
I had to experiment with learning to say no, with recognizing when I was uncomfortable with recognizing which relationships were actually relatively healthy and could handle no, and which ones weren't that healthy and couldn't handle no, but still needed it.
And experimenting around with these and sharing my lessons through writing the blog and so forth has helped me to gradually heal over these last 15 years.
And as I said, it's a work in progress.
I'll tell you what has been the biggest eye-opener for me, and I don't know if you've had this Kwame, but I met my now husband about eight months after I had that initial epiphany, and I was in a far better place then.
But it's interesting that once I started working for myself and doing what I was doing, a few years later, that that's where I really confronted a lot of my people pleasing and perfectionism through that as well.
It's like, oh, like you don't just learn about this through your relationships.
You also learn about it through how you work with people as well.
That's where you sometimes get to discover just how much of a people pleaser you are.
Exactly.
It's really interesting because it shows up in different areas of your life, with almost all of the relationships you have.
It just manifests itself somewhat differently and um, that that's the key, and and that's why i'm so excited to have you on the show today to to help folks to um, overcome this, because there is life on the other side, and i know, even when we had our pre-interview um, i was excited because i i thought i knew a lot about this and you showed me that there are levels to this game uh, so i'm excited to get you to share, and so the the three things that we're going to discuss today are first, how to know you're people pleasing.
The next one is how empowering it can be to overcome it.
And then we're going to wrap it up with a simple technique that you can use to start the journey to overcoming this challenge.
So how to know your people-pleasing.
For a lot of people, they're like, hey, all righty, I know it.
What's the point of this?
But let's get into that.
Why is it so important to understand how to identify it?
Well, I think that we have varying levels of awareness about our people-pleasing.
So some people like us, we are aware that we, that we've got an inner pleaser, we are aware of our habits and we, even though we are fairly familiar with it, we discover sometimes where it shows up in different ways and we pay attention.
Some people are aware of the term people pleasing and they have a suspicion that they might be doing it, but they don't really know what it means in actuality, or they think it's some things or something and often they go oh, it means i'm a doormat, which actually isn't the case for a lot of people.
Who people please?
And some people have no idea that what they're doing is people pleasing.
They see it as I'm an empath.
I'm very giving.
I'm very generous.
I'm very kind.
And people always take advantage of me.
And people just don't respect me.
People just don't do this.
People just don't do that.
And so it is important for us to become familiar with people pleasing and to recognize it, because it's a block to intimacy.
Like it damages our relationships, but it also very much so damages our self-esteem.
And while there are sometimes very obvious signs of us people pleasing, the big clues with people pleasing is about how we feel.
Because what people pleasing is Kwame is it's suppressing and repressing our needs desires expectations, feelings and opinions.
Because...
We're going to prioritize everybody else in the hope that we're going to get attention affection approval, love or validation, or so that we can avoid conflict criticism, additional stress disappointment loss, rejection or what some of us will say is abandonment.
And so it's the things that we do to get certain things or to avoid certain things.
And it is important for us to recognize this, because a lot of the things that we say oh, that's just my personality.
That's just the way that I am.
Actually, it's not.
It's people pleasing.
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When it comes to identifying it.
It sounds like just being able to identify hey, this is people pleasing versus my personality is important because now you can say all right, if this is actually something that I can change, then I can do something about it.
If I just say, oh, this is just who I am, then it's almost like we're accepting that position.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because with people pleasing there are feelings, clues that let us know that we are people pleasing.
So consistently feeling guilty anxious resentful obliged overwhelmed burdened trapped powerless helpless depressed, low.
You know this sort of frustration, this irritation with people.
And our feelings are there as clues to let us know how we are feeling on the inside or what's going on in our inner world.
But it also gives us indications about what might be going on around us.
And particularly you, These.
Let us know that we're doing what might be, for all intents and purposes, good things, but for the wrong reasons.
So the feelings are the clue, but the why is the clue as well.
So we can do amazing things.
But if the reason why we're doing it is because I need to do this so that I don't get rejected.
I need to do this because this is how I can make sure I get another date.
I need to do this because like, if I don't, then people are going to talk about me, or people won't think I'm a good person, or people will think that I'm this, or I need to do this because this is the way to put across this particular persona.
It's not so much what we do, although sometimes it is the what, but it's very much about the why.
And when we understand the why, we then get to recognize the people pleasing.
Yeah, this is brilliant.
And I think that was one of the biggest revelations for me when we were having our pre-interview, because we always think about people pleasing in terms of the outcome.
What was it that you did that was people pleasing?
And essentially what you're saying is that Somebody can do something that was good and it can be people pleasing for that person.
And then somebody else in the same situation can do the exact same thing.
But it wouldn't be people pleasing because of the reasoning behind it.
Yeah.
It's like if you have a hidden agenda, guess what?
You're people pleasing.
If, like you're trying to control the outcome, you're like, if I do this, then I'm going to get this particular reward, or the person will do this or the person will do that.
You have hidden motivations, a hidden agenda, especially if you want to tell people why you're doing what you're doing.
If you're like, if somebody said to you, okay, go ahead, tell people why you're doing that.
And you're like, oh no, no, no, no.
Then clearly you've got a dodgy reason for why you're doing that.
And giving is a really, really good example of this.
So giving is something that realistically, for it to be healthy giving, we really need to give it wholeheartedly, without an agenda, without a specific expectation of what we're going to get back.
So obviously, if we give something to somebody, you would hope you get at least a thank you out of it.
Here's the thing.
A lot of us go around giving giving giving giving giving, because there's a part of us that doesn't feel worthy.
And also because sometimes what we're trying to do is get somebody else to step up and give back to us.
And so they do one thing.
We give three things back and we hope they'll give three things back, or four, and they turn around and give nothing back, or one.
So now we're in this sort of deficit mode.
We also, I think sometimes we're going around giving because it's like our version of giving incidentally, because it's like, oh well, if I do this, then this person will think this of me, or they feel this particular way, or they'll do this particular thing.
And that's not giving.
It's just a hidden contract.
And This makes so many people feel uncomfortable because we like to, particularly as people pleasers, see ourselves as kind and generous and benevolent people.
But what if sometimes we're giving because we think that if we rescue that person they won't feel as if they can leave?
And so that they'll have to stay around us forever and never abandon us.
Wow.
Yeah, and this is the hidden agenda.
Part of it was really eye opening to me too, because we're doing these things in the hope of getting something in return instead of simply being direct about what it is that we want and need in the relationship.
Yeah, absolutely.
And a lot of us.
As humans, we have been socialized to believe that direct is wrong, that direct is harsh, that it is better for us to be indirect and basically do a little bit and hope everybody else will do the legwork and finish it off and figure out what we need and want.
And so a lot of people pleasing is dropping hints, because we're effectively, in a lot of cases, trying to show other people how to behave.
There we are busting ourselves up, You know, taking on all of this stuff, the giving giving, giving.
Sometimes smiling like, oh, all sweet and sweet.
Yeah, yeah, I'm totally fine.
Inside, we feel like we're dying on the inside.
Like we're going to have to catch a case and murder somebody soon.
You know, we're feeling like that on the inside.
But outside we're like this, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, I'm totally fine, totally fine.
We're doing all of this stuff.
And how we feel on the inside does not match what we're doing on the outside when we're people pleaser.
But we're doing this stuff and we, we have this yeah this, this agenda, these hidden motivations because we think if I'm honest about this stuff, I'm going to hurt somebody's feelings.
And I keep saying to people, boundaries do not hurt people's feelings.
All right.
Saying no is not actually what hurts somebody's feelings.
We as humans, we all have emotional baggage.
If somebody is going to lose their marbles with us, cuss us out, tell us.
You know, I don't want to have anything to do with you because we said no.
The problem isn't that we said no.
The problem is the relationship.
Because if our relationship can't tolerate no, then we don't really have a relationship with that person.
We're in some sort of bondage with them.
Wow.
It makes so much sense.
And I think that's a great position for us to transition into the empowering nature of overcoming people pleasing, because it changes your life in significant ways, not just in terms of the outcome of what's actually happening, but also in terms of how you feel in the process.
So can you tell us a bit more about that?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that people pleasing is something that we are socialized.
Like it's bred into us through childhood church parents school, you know peers, media everything's telling us be good, be kind, be sweet, be meek mild, and then you'll get everything that you want.
Do this, do that.
And the thing is is that when we recognize our people pleasing for what it is, it allows us to have a more honest intimate, authentic relationship with us.
So we can actually meet our needs from a healthy place, but we can also start to treat ourselves with love care, trust and respect.
We finally allow us to grow up, because any type of people pleasing that we're doing is, It's based on habits that we learned as children.
So all we're doing is repeating stuff that we learned to do as a kid.
And we're not a kid anymore.
And as soon as we allow us to grow up and we're not in a child role anymore, we can be present to ourselves.
We can be present to our life.
We can be present to our relationships.
We also as well.
I had so much more respect for myself when I finally acknowledged that I am allowed to say no.
And I can say no, not just because I'm in dire straits and it's a 911 situation, but I can say no simply because I want to.
And there is something so liberating about that.
And that's not because, the moment that we realize that we're a people pleaser, we leap out of bed and say thank you, Lord.
I finally discovered that I'm a people pleaser.
And then we go out and we get our AK-47 full of no bullets and we spray it.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Because that like, obviously, we can't just run around in life going, no, no, no, no, no.
But this whole thing of like, I'm not allowed to say no, no hurts feelings.
I can't say no, all of this type of stuff.
When we realize actually we can say no.
And we need to say no so that we can actually say more yes to ourselves, say yes to life.
We bring more joy in.
I think that as a society, we're conditioned to believe that no is a dirty word.
But no and yes work in tandem together.
Something I was saying the other day is you know, like the heart and the lungs work together, like they need each other.
And like they circulate oxygen-rich blood, you know, to all of our organs.
Well, yes and no work in the same way.
Too little no, or too much yes, or whichever one it is.
If they're not working together and in tandem, it starts to show up in our lives.
We and the way that our life is working does not function very healthfully.
And so what I've discovered is that there is so much joy in saying no.
And I was, you know, life was not great for me then.
And I was always afraid of saying no.
But I started to say no bit by bit by bit by bit.
And you know what, Kwame?
I could open up my front door and the world was still turning.
Cars were still going by, people walking down the street.
The sky had not fallen.
Because we often behave as if, you know, if we open our front door after saying no, the world has blown up around us like something terrible has happened and it hasn't.
And so, bit by bit, I learned to say no.
I learned to tolerate not just my own discomfort but other people's discomfort, because I think we're people pleasing.
It's like we think we're going to be happy by trying to spare people from their feelings.
And we think we're going to be happy by living this sort of half-life and pretending to be something that we're not and pussyfooting around the place.
And there is so much liberation in going, that's not my business.
It's not my business to feel their feelings.
It's not my business to try to work out what's inside their head.
Yes, I can empathize, but I don't need to try to spare them from themselves.
You know, because often we go, oh, I'm afraid of hurting feelings.
No, no, no.
We're afraid of hurting our feelings.
And I've discovered, actually, I like me more as a result of saying no.
It's when I don't say no and I come up with these dodgy reasons for it, when I end up being really frustrated with myself.
So there's a lot of fulfillment that comes from saying no.
But also I want to be clear having better boundaries and being a recovering people pleaser is also not just about saying no, but it's actually about saying yes, but saying yes authentically.
Because if we say no, if we say yes inauthentically, then we're saying yes resentfully.
And that leads to far more problems than if we just said no in the first place.
It makes so much sense.
One of the things that you said earlier that I thought was really interesting is that People pleasing is a block to intimacy, which makes me think that once you overcome this, you have improved relationships.
And for people who are in this, people pleasing mentality, that's really counterintuitive, because they're saying to themselves wait a second.
I'm doing this for the sake of the relationship.
I'm doing this because I feel like I need to say yes and give people what they want.
So they love me.
So they respect me.
So they keep me around.
But you're telling me saying no and putting up boundaries actually improves the relationship.
So can you reconcile that?
Yeah, absolutely.
First of all, if we're people pleasing, it's like wearing a mask or putting on a costume.
You can't people please and be yourself at the same time.
The two things don't mix.
So you're either people pleasing or you're being yourself, but you're not doing the two things at the same time.
Now, the thing is, if you're wearing a mask or a costume, that's keeping somebody at a distance.
You're putting on a show.
You're putting on a face.
You might be pretending to be something that you're not.
You're playing a role.
So it's a block to intimacy.
And we tell ourselves, oh, I'm doing this for the relationship.
Are we?
Because actually, when we look at how we feel and often we don't feel too good and our relationships might not be that satisfactory how's that really working for us?
How is that functioning for us?
So cutting back on people pleasing, it is not about being perfect at it.
It's about recognizing that we are people pleasing and becoming a recovering one, somebody who's really becoming more conscious, aware and present about their habit and willing to recognize when it's showing up, or to learn from it, if you recognize it afterwards.
And so how that improves our relationships is we become more emotionally available as a result of us being more honest with ourselves.
The moment that you start cutting back on people-pleasing is you're growing up and you're being more honest.
You're being honest about your intentions.
You're being honest about your motivations.
You start being more direct with people.
It's like oh, I can people-please and do a whole lot of giving and over-responsibility and over-thinking and I can run around the house with a vacuum cleaner and all these things.
Or I could just come out straight and ask the person for whatever it is.
Or I can tell the person how I'm feeling.
You know...
A running joke I have with my husband is an example of how this could improve relationships.
So I have been guilty in the past of you know.
Maybe you're stressed out with work or you look around and you see that the kids and the dog and the husband like the things around the house like not being put away.
And I'm feeling maybe tired and I'm feeling a bit ratty.
And instead of turning around and going guys hey, Can we spend like 20 minutes, half an hour, just having a big pickup session and tidying up.
What did Natalie used to do?
I start going around the house, banging the vacuum cleaner all over the place, right?
You know, boom, boom, boom.
Eventually, of course, he's going to say, definitely right.
Oh yeah, it's not okay.
That's dropping hints.
It's like we want people to do the grunt load.
Now I'm in a more honest place where, if I find myself going on some cleaning spree, I'll actually stop and go.
Do I actually want to be cleaning here?
Or is this a way of me like avoiding my feelings about something?
Is that something that I need to communicate here?
And it's not because every time I clean, I'm trying to avoid something.
But if I'm doing it at a weird time of the day when I should be working, then I know that something is up.
But this was a bit of a game changer with us in our relationship, in the sense that we're always evolving in our relationships.
And recognizing where my people pleasing shows up and where, instead of being direct, I start going around the houses dropping hints, really allowed us just to go to deeper and deeper levels of intimacy.
Like it's okay to say hey, I really didn't like when you said that particular thing or when you did that particular thing.
Instead of turning around and going.
You know, like in coming to America, I like what you like.
You know I want to do what you do.
Oh, nothing's bothering me whatsoever.
Like when people say to me, oh, Natalie, we never argue.
We've been together for however many years and we never argue.
That's not a badger on her.
If you never argue, if you have no conflict in your relationship, you don't have any intimacy.
I'm not saying you have to be like Ike and Tina.
I'm not saying that you got to be like at war with each other.
I'm saying that conflict is a form of intimacy and people pleasers routinely avoid conflict and routinely avoid criticism.
So it's like, oh, if I'm like super nice, I can dodge criticism and I can dodge conflict.
And then what happens?
Something happens like a conflict and then they go After everything I did for them and they still want to fight with me.
They still want to criticize me.
That's not intimacy.
So when we actually allow us to be us and run the risk of the possibility of conflict even though we're not necessarily going to have a whole lot of conflict what we will have is more intimacy in our relationships.
We're in a more honest place.
That's always a good thing.
Absolutely.
And I think this is a perfect part for us to transition into the last part, which is the simple technique.
And you touched on it there, but let's actually highlight this and pull it out.
Differentiating between desire and obligation.
And so, of all of the things that we could do to improve our abilities to overcome people pleasing, why is this the one that you wanted to focus on?
Well, It's amazing, as people pleasers, that you know we're running around and we're doing all of these things and we say oh, this is me.
This is how I am.
Pay attention to how you feel and the way that you're thinking about stuff.
And then you get to know, is it a desire or is it obligation?
Because if you're doing things from a place of obligation, you're people pleasing.
Because if you can't convert that obligation into a genuine desire, where it's like I want to do this, I'm signing on to do this.
I know what I'm doing.
I'm happy to do this.
It's not a desire.
We're basically carrying on as if oh, I have to do this, I have no choice, I am obliged to do this, it is my duty to do this.
And when we start to look at the things that we do on that basis, it becomes quite clear that a lot of those things are not duties or obligations.
They're things that we have emotionally blackmailed ourselves into.
So we all have an idea of what it feels like when we want to do something.
We know what it feels like when it's like, oh yeah, I desire that thing.
I love that thing.
So It's a good idea to remember, think back.
When was the last time I really wanted to do something or I really wanted something?
Try to remember what that feeling was.
And then we also know what it's like to moderately want to do something.
And I specifically say this because there's a famous quote that goes around from Marie Forleo.
And I know we talked about this in the pre-interview.
But she says, if it's not a hell yeah, then it's a hell no.
And newsflash, people.
Yes, sometimes that's true, but not everything can be a hell yeah.
Sometimes it's like a moderate yes.
And if we can recognize this and start to differentiate between okay well, there's like yeah, I'm really enthusiastic.
And okay, that's kind of moderate.
And ooh like that brings up, like icky feelings guilt obligation resentment irritation frustration anxiety, whatever it might be.
It's like oh, these are now feelings that that give me clues that I need to pause and consider what I'm doing and decide if I can turn it into a desire.
And if I can't turn it into a desire, I need to say no.
If we can't turn around and say, hey, do you know what?
This seems like an obligation to me.
It feels like if I don't do this, then it's going to be a problem and I have to do this.
And if we're not willing to have that conversation either, then we definitely need to say no.
Yeah, it makes so much sense.
And it's funny.
As we talk about this, it makes me realize that in a few areas of my life I still engage in people pleasing too.
Yeah, recovering people pleaser, that's why you are that.
Exactly.
In the business negotiation world, it's like, all right, good, I got this.
But then when it comes to more in the personal life, with family, with friends, with things that I like to do, trying to be charitable, helping people.
It's tough.
And what's funny is that I'm recognizing that it shifts.
So sometimes it's a genuine, yes, oh yeah, I like to do this.
Yeah, I'll do a little free speaking engagement over here for this organization.
It's a nonprofit.
I'll do that because I had more time.
And now I don't have as much time and I'm feeling differently about those same things.
And so I'm recognizing.
Now, after our two conversations here, I'm recognizing oh, I still have some work to do.
So we're all growing in this.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it is really important to see ourselves as a work in progress.
We do not have to be perfect about yes or no.
What we do have to do is be willing to learn from those experiences where we go.
Oh, that was actually people pleasing.
Like sometimes it'd be somebody else that points it out where you know, as people pleases, people will ask us to do something.
And sometimes we do not even take a beat, a pause to actually just be like oh, do I want to do this?
Do I have the time to do this?
Do I need to do this?
Like, it's just like, yes, yes.
And then afterwards we go, oh, flip.
Like, oh, how am I going to get out of this?
Like, we're now trying to come up with like a million and one excuses to get out of it.
Like something I say to people.
Please is all the time is you know that you don't have to try to basically pray for a catastrophe to happen or for you to get ill, just so that you can have a legitimate reason to actually get out of the thing that you prematurely said yes to.
You could just like say, no, you are actually allowed to back out of it if need be.
Because so many people, it's like, oh, no, I've gone and said yes to that thing.
And then they're praying that something or somebody else is going to come along and save them, so that they don't actually have to turn around and say no.
This is sounding so familiar.
Oh, but if I turn around and say that I don't want to do this, then people are going to think that.
That kind of chatter in your head.
Where you're, you're actually contemplating saying yes, or you already have said it, but in your head you're going well, what are people going to think of me?
And I can't do this.
Oh my God, I can't believe that I've got to put the time in for this.
Don't people realize how busy I am?
I'm so tired.
Why do people keep taking all of that kind of chat is a sign that, even if, for all intents and purposes, it is that good thing?
You signed up for the wrong reasons.
You didn't take a beat and just listen to yourself and be like Hey, Like for me, a big thing that's really helped me is I just need to check my diary a bit more.
I need to pause and think about stuff.
Sometimes I need a day or two.
I have to give myself the grace to do that.
Like we have to know what works for us personally.
Yeah, and I think that's an incredibly powerful tool to just give yourself a little bit of time because, when it comes to emotional decisions, we're feeling a pressure in one direction or another.
And one of the best ways to overcome that emotional pressure is to just give yourself time to relax and chill and get some distance.
And then you can see things a lot clearer.
And so one of the things that's helped me is simply saying, all right, thanks for letting me know.
Let me think about this, or let me look at my schedule, or let me talk to my team and I'll get back to you.
And then the next day I can actually, after I've thought about it, without the emotional pressure of trying to feel forced to make a decision in front of the person right then.
Then I can say no and it's a lot easier.
And what I tell people all the time is that Sometimes people will try to pressure you into saying yes right now.
No, no, I can't wait till tomorrow.
I need to know right now.
I need to know right now.
And so what I always say is, well, if you need to know right now, the answer is no.
And miraculously, they find time to wait.
Yes, yes, yes.
Oh my gosh.
I want to do a testify dance here.
I say the same thing to people.
It's like, if you turn around and you say to somebody, okay, let me get back to you.
No, no, I have to know now.
Then no, because some people, they want to catch you unawares.
They want that inauthentic yes out of you.
And the thing that every people pleaser needs to understand is this.
Just because somebody has a need or we sense that they have a need because sometimes it's just purely in our head but just because they have a need or we sense it, it doesn't mean that it's our job to fulfill it.
Because it's like somebody's there and I don't know.
Maybe they're talking about something like I don't know, something to do with work or with family.
And it's like in the back of our mind, it goes beep, beep, beep, alert, alert.
You need to say something.
You need to make an offer, make an offer.
Say if they ask you to do something, say yes.
Just because somebody has a need doesn't mean that it's our job to fulfill it.
It is okay for us to turn around and say no, or just not say anything at all.
We don't have to volunteer.
We don't have to clean the microwave at work.
We don't always have to be the one that volunteers.
We don't always have to be the one that fixes things.
We don't have to be the peacemaker.
We don't always have to be the listener or the giver.
We do not have to do any of that stuff.
Yeah, and what's funny is that again, we do this in order for for people to value us.
That's what we a lot of times.
We want people to value us, but what's funny is, if you put up boundaries in the right place and make yourself less available, people actually value you more because of the principle of scarcity.
It's like oh, kwame's not always going to be there, kwame has other things to do, Right.
And then, oh, OK, I'm going to appreciate it a little bit more when he's able to help.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because the thing is, like if we if we always like say yes to that particular person.
Right.
Even though uncomfortable as it might be for us or the other party to acknowledge it, they end up devaluing that because they never really experienced that tension of us saying let me get back to you or sorry no, I can't.
And as a newsflash for people even if you said yes to something a thousand times, you are well within your rights to say no the next time.
You are not on the hook to say it until all eternity.
It's like you are allowed to evolve.
And a friend of mine.
She's a hairdresser and she lived beneath a woman in an apartment building who had a child.
And she came to my friend and she said, can you keep an eye on my little boy for this evening?
And it was supposed to be a one-off.
At the best part of a year later, my friend is taking care of her child like a few times a week.
And I had no idea about this.
And I go around there to get my head.
And then she tells me this, that I nearly had heart failure when she told me.
And the worst thing was, They were not even friends.
If she saw this woman outside of the context of her dropping off her child, this woman would stone cold blank her.
She never invited her.
She would have parties in her place and she wouldn't even invite my friend who's taking care of her kid.
And I was like, this is insane.
Because now it was kind of like, oh, well, I kind of feel bad if I turn around and say...
My friend was busy.
She had other stuff to do.
And she realized that she actually had to go and tell this woman no, this woman was not entitled to free childcare from my friend.
And even if she had treated my friend like a so-called friend, it didn't make what was going on, okay.
So my friend had to go and say no and had to be okay with the woman ignoring her.
After a year of taking care of her child, had to be okay with this woman ignoring her.
The woman didn't even say thank you.
That's wild.
That, wow.
I feel, my goodness, I don't even know what to say.
Yeah, and you know there are a million and one versions of this story, because I'll tell you something.
I know that as humans, so many of us are afraid of boundaries.
We're afraid of saying no.
We're afraid of being honest.
We're afraid of hurting feelings, all of these different things.
I'll tell you what humans like.
We like to know where we stand.
And when we know where we stand, we place value in those relationships.
And so I've heard from people like they're in the most toxic, ambiguous, whatever relationship.
And they think, because they're being everything and anything to this person, that this person values them.
But if you don't ever say no and you let the person take absolute liberties with you, they don't value you.
They don't.
So it's not the case of, oh, well, I'll turn around and I'll say no to them this time.
And they will value me from now on.
And then I can continue people pleasing.
It's like, no, set the standard, like set your boundaries, like know who you are and respect it.
Yeah, no, that's perfect.
And You know, with the, I'm recognizing we're coming up on time.
So obviously we are certainly going to have you back on the show.
And I think a fun challenge for the folks in the audience who identify with this is number one.
If you haven't left a review, please leave a review.
And number two, say no.
Sometime in the next week, say no to something that you want, that you genuinely don't want to do, and then, and then, let us know how you felt.
I think that would be a very important and practical step in your journey to overcoming this.
Yeah, absolutely.
I always recommend to people like a great way to find out about your people pleasing is to set yourself the challenge of cutting back on your no by about 50 over the following week.
And it's not because you actually will, although if you do, great.
But it's because you get to find out where your real sticking points are.
It's like you have this challenge and then it's like, okay, I'm going to try and say no.
And then that certain somebody comes along and you're like, oh Lord, no, no, no, no, I can't.
And that's where you get to discover who you're really scared of, who you're anxious around.
Because you know what?
People pleasing is like, is equal to saying I am anxious, right?
This was an eye-opening discovery for me, because I realized each time I people please, or I recognize it afterwards, it's like I'm anxious about something.
I'm anxious about how I'll be perceived.
I'm anxious about, I don't know, rejection or disappointment or whatever it is.
This was revelatory to me because then I could go, oh, I'm anxious about something.
What is that?
And then I could choose to go a different route or soothe that in whatever way I needed to.
Right.
No, it makes so much sense.
And there's so much self-discovery that comes with this new journey.
So I really appreciate this.
This has been fantastic.
And before you go again, let the listeners know about your podcast and how they can get in touch with you.
So my podcast is the Baggage Reclaim Sessions, and you can find it on all podcast players.
The website is baggagereclaim.com.
And the best place to get a hold of me social media wise is on Instagram.
And I'm at NatLue, N-A-T-L-U-E on Instagram.
Fantastic.
Natalie, thank you so much.
We really appreciate it.
Oh, thank you, Kwame.
It's been an absolute pleasure hanging out with you.
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