Have you ever caught yourself imagining what life would be like if you were rich and famous?
Oftentimes we think that everything would finally feel good and you would finally feel like you had enough.
But by the end of this conversation, I guarantee you that you're going to see that desire in a completely different light.
Our guest today is Dr Dave Verhagen, a board certified psychologist, founding partner of a major practice with offices in Charlotte and Nashville, and author of Working with the Wealthy and Well-Known a rare, deep dive into what fame and wealth really do to a person's identity, relationships and inner lives.
In this episode, we'll explore a powerful definition of the good life, one that doesn't fall apart when stress, setbacks and success all collide.
So you stop negotiating from insecurity and start negotiating from strength and how to take back control in conversations when someone with status or influence tries to pull one over on you.
Dave has been in the rooms with celebrities, high achievers, performers and prominent professionals and he'll unpack why the pursuit of status so often ends in dissatisfaction, how wealth can subtly rewire your mind and one key warning sign that shows that you're about to get played.
Let's jump in.
The thing that has been really occupying my head this last year is this idea of the psychologically rich life.
And it isn't talking about financial riches.
It's talking about having rich experiences.
So historically there has been kind of two ways of thinking about what does it mean to live a good life?
There has been the, we call it the hedonic life.
Like hedonism.
And we think of hedonism as being something bad, you know, like doing a lot of cocaine and orgies and things.
But hedonism is actually, you know, anything that is pleasurable, anything that is good, like having a good conversation or a great meal, or enjoying art.
And so the that was the dominant way of thinking about the good life, which is the good life is a life where you're happy.
It's where you're satisfied, where you enjoy things.
And then there was a competing idea and the Greek word was eudaimonic, but it really it meant flourishing.
But really what that had to do with, as it was interpreted, was the good life is really a life of calling and meaning and purpose and contribution.
And so that was, and so we have both of those kind of mixed into the, Our collective awareness of like OK well, the good life is is a life of, of pleasure and enjoyment, or the good life is a life of meaning and purpose.
And you can't argue with either of those.
But for me, I don't know how you know, I know you have a very rich life in many respects.
For me, those I hit a point in my life where those were neither of them were sufficient.
Because if I was really saying like, if my life is good, if I'm happy, there are a lot of times that I wasn't happy.
Like this past year was not a happy year for me.
There are a lot of bad things in my family and my extended family.
My sister-in-law died unexpectedly and so on.
I just wasn't a happy year.
Um, And then if it's only on meaning, that can be taken away from you.
You might think I'm going down this path and then suddenly the bottom drops out.
I'm like, what am I about?
So the psychologically rich life concept is a concept and it's actually not gotten a lot of traction yet.
It's relatively new.
It's like a four or five year old idea that's been put out there.
And it is like well, a different perspective is the good life is a life of experiences that change you, experiences that deepen you, experiences that shape your perspective.
And that really resonated for me.
And it was one of those kind of light bulb.
Yeah, that's the life I've been living because I feel like.
This life is a journey and some of it is awesome and amazing and some of it is just really hard and really sad.
But if you're really in it and you let it kind of shape you and take you to deeper places, then that's really a good life.
And so that's really what's been occupying my head, to be honest.
I mean, that's a long answer to that question, but that's that's it.
We are going deep really early and I love it.
This is great.
And for me, when it comes to my fitness journey.
I don't often do cardio, but I will say that I have been on the hedonic treadmill from time to time.
It's a good one.
And this is a great place for us to start because, at the end of the day, we want to live a good life.
You know, and we it's up to us to determine what that means.
And I love this exploration of the psychologically rich life because it allows us to really be at the helm of controlling whether or like what kind of life it is that we live.
I also like the fact that it is very liberating, because depending on what society culture, country you're from, they might have a specific way that they have.
They view the good life.
So, for instance, you have the capitalistic culture that might say okay, consumption is the best way to live.
Creating value and profit is kind of the way that you get value and enjoyment.
But that often leads to people getting on the hedonic treadmill, like we discussed, where you are pleasure-seeking.
Where you're saying, okay, I want this.
And you might get that thing.
But what ends up happening is a process of habituation.
So you get used to that.
And then the same thing that excited you last week does not excite you in the same way.
So you need to chase a new high.
And it sounds like this is a much more stable situation psychologically sound way of going about it trying to focus on experiences versus any other type of more shallow approach to achieving happiness or a good life.
Right.
And one thing I'll add is it isn't like you only have to pick one.
In other words, it's not like if I live a psychologically rich life, I cannot value calling and meaning, or I cannot value enjoyment and pleasure.
You can value all those things.
It's really more of the primary lens that you're looking through about how you're assessing your life.
Right.
So you could say, I want to live this psychologically rich life.
And that helps ground me because it gives more cushion and more ability to absorb the hard things in life.
But I'm also loving the experience of this.
Whatever this might be like this, this weekend, my wife and I are going to New York.
We're going to see a bunch of shows and it's maybe going to snow a little bit.
I mean, if we don't know how to go, but if it goes well, that'll be super pleasurable, super fun.
I feel a very strong sense of calling to my profession.
I've done it for a long time.
I love it.
I feel as energized today as I did 30 years ago.
I very much value calling and meaning in work.
But this perspective has been an eye opener for me in that it is when those things kind of get challenged.
This this one holds steady because then I can be like, OK, this I am on this journey.
That is a rodeo.
And it is sometimes challenging.
Super exhilarating and fun, sometimes boring and sometimes awful.
Yep.
It makes so much sense.
And would it be fair to say that the concept or the idea of having a psychologically rich life?
Maybe we could think about this as the foundation of what a good life could be, but then we also have pillars of what a good life could be, none of which by itself could stand tall solidly.
Because if you go the hedonic route yeah, you feel really great a lot of times, but then habituation happens, you might not feel fulfilled.
If you focus on purely fulfillment through your career, through obligation, through maybe, like a parent, for example, could feel a sense of commitment and fulfillment and purpose from raising a child.
But we also recognize that that takes a lot of work and it's not always enjoyable.
So you still might not have a psychologically rich life if you're not finding ways to maximize experiences and enjoy some moments from time to time.
That's exactly right.
You nailed it.
That is exactly how to think about it is that there might be things that are in either of those other two categories that are good and valuable, but they can come out from under you.
And this is, for me at least, it's been really more solid.
The man who founded this concept is Shigehiro Oishi.
He is at University of Chicago.
I'm doing a book plug for him.
But this is the only book that's out there on it.
Life in Three Dimensions.
And he's the founder.
He's a Japanese man.
He has spent his entire career in academia.
And he and some colleagues have really nursed this idea.
And I very much appreciated it.
Yes.
I think a lot of folks would be very interested to see how the other side lives, because it's so easy to romanticize how folks who have influence, who have income, who have wealth, how they live.
And oftentimes now today, if you're an influencer, thought leader celebrity, part of the job is projecting some level of status with consistency and, And we have this idealized version of our life that people project online.
And then we compare ourselves that way.
So let's think about the psychology of living a psychologically rich life and compare that to the lives that you're seeing of the rich.
Yeah.
If it's okay, I want to back up just one step and tell you how I got to this point.
Yeah, that'd be great.
Because my early roots were in community mental health.
My first five years of my career, I worked community mental health.
Nearly all of my clients were very poor, had tremendous needs, and I loved it.
I had a great time.
And then after about five years, I rolled into joining a practice.
That practice.
This is another whole branch of a story, but they had two 50-50 partners who couldn't get along and they crashed the practice.
And so out of that, I was either like well, I guess I either have to go back into agency work or start my own business.
I started my own practice with no business background, had none.
Fortunately, it went well.
It grew.
It grew again.
And and so that was my background.
When we started our practice, I was really having observed the previous one.
They were chasing all this managed care stuff and all this insurance stuff.
And basically you're working harder to make about, you know, two thirds of what you would normally make.
And so we're like, we're just we're going to be out of network forever.
And I didn't think this all the way through.
This was not an intention, but it really led to us drawing a lot of families.
That had means a lot of wealthy families.
And so early on, we started seeing these very wealthy families coming in.
And the contrast between them and middle class families and lower income families was so dramatic in so many ways.
Then, when we started the branch of our business in Nashville which was about a decade ago and I came to Nashville to help start that, almost immediately within the first week we were getting referrals from people within the recording industry who in many cases were very well-known people.
And again, this was not by design.
And so. both of these things happen kind of accidentally in, in a way for me.
And I, this really sort of began my journey of like, is what are the resources for these folks?
Because in a sense, you know, I've written, I think this is my 10th book.
I've written about a bunch of different things.
I thought of originally was a little gauche to write a book about rich people you know and famous people.
I just felt it felt kind of icky at first but then i realized there's nothing out there and we're in in some practices and some quarters.
We're really faced with what?
What is the psychology of someone who's wealthy?
Does it matter if they inherited the wealth or they got it later in life?
What is the psychology of?
How does that affect their kids?
And so it really set me on this path of just for my own learning to bring this all together.
That's the origin of the book.
And so what I'll tell you in summary, there's a lot to say, but I'll start with wealth first.
Let me start with fame first, and then I'll start with go to wealth.
There are some benefits to being famous in terms of access and privilege and so on.
But by and large, when you talk to someone who's famous, they hate it.
They're very unhappy with it.
I would say overwhelmingly.
And so I would say, and I have you know, obviously in Nashville you've got a ton of young folks coming in.
They want to be big. recording artists, they want to be famous.
And those are some of the conversations we have of like this is this is a life that you may not want.
Um, and one of my close friends had a son who was an actor.
He was very talented.
And he called me one day, this has been years ago.
And he said, uh, my son's getting auditions.
I'm thinking about getting an apartment and For him in Los Angeles and for me to come out and visit.
And at this point, the kid was still like 16, maybe 17.
And I really discouraged him.
And later he thanked me for it.
And I said, I have a whole chapter on kids who become famous, child stars.
All the things, all the stereotypes that you hear about that are all true.
I mean, they're not always true, but they're mostly true.
If you read interviews of people who became famous when they were younger, it just drops an atom bomb on them.
It developmentally is a wreck.
So I would say, on the side of fame, it is not a life that most people.
It is a life that from the outside looking in, a lot of people would say that they would secretly want.
But when someone's in it, the aspects of fame that are negative outweigh the positives for them most of the time.
Um, now with wealth, it's a little bit of a different story, because there are tremendous benefits to wealth, but there's also a lot of downside, and the downside tends to be in the more interpersonal.
Hmm.
In terms of what that does for people.
But obviously wealth has a tremendous amount of benefits with just having access to resources health care,
You've read all the studies about well, only this amount of wealth brings you happiness and anything beyond that.
But those studies really vary and some of them are 70, some thousands, some are 90, some go up to like half a million.
Um, but the point is that that having enough resources and more than enough resources does offset a lot of negative things and gets people in positions where they can take care of their family and they can take care of themselves, and and they have greater access to a whole lot of things.
So I would say in summary, there's not a lot of benefits to being famous, other than some greater access to things.
There are a lot of benefits to being wealthy, but there are some downsides that I think we need to talk about.
Absolutely.
This is So great.
So thank you for that breakdown.
And I think a lot of listeners are appreciative as well.
So when their kids say, when I grow up I want to be rich and famous, you could just say just go for rich.
It's so interesting.
I think it's very helpful because we're humans, social primates, monkey see, monkey do.
There's a lot of memetic desire.
That happens when you see people that you admire.
You say I want to be like that.
And that's where the envy comes from.
It's like, I want that, but I, it's very difficult to access it.
But I think it's very helpful to see from this perspective that we might not want that which we want once we have it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a, there's a, um, a great story.
Also, this is more about about wealth, but there was this story with um, with Joseph Heller, who wrote Catch-22, and Kurt Vonnegut, who famously wrote Slaughterhouse-Five and other books.
And they were at this party on Shelter Island that was being thrown by this billionaire.
This is back in the day, several decades ago.
And they're walking around and Vonnegut is joking Joseph Heller about this.
Man makes more in one week than you've made in the entire run of Catch-22.
And just joking him.
And Heller says to him, yeah, but I've got something that he will never have.
He said, what?
He said, enough.
Yeah.
And that's really.
That's one of the things that, particularly with wealth, one of the consistent themes in research on wealth is that if you have 50000, you think if I had 100000 I'd be fine.
If you have $100,000, you think if I had $200,000, I'd be fine.
If you have a million dollars, you think if I had $2 million, I'd be fine.
If you have $5 million, you think if I had $10 million, I'd be fine.
There is this thing that it does to your head where it's never enough.
And so I reflect on that for myself where when I was a graduate student, I mean, I had nothing.
I, my grandmother, would send me 300 a month and that between that working in radio.
I worked in radio at a radio station in Chapel Hill.
I could pay my rent and I, and I didn't think about money at all.
And then, when I became a business owner and I sold my businesses and all of a sudden then wealth, you know it, it did something in my head.
Um, And so I totally get it.
It does something that is – I don't want to say a virus.
That sounds too strong.
But you get my point is that it does – when people become wealthy, then it changes something about how they think.
And I'm not trying to be political here.
This is not my point.
But – we see this on a bigger scale, where people who have extraordinary amounts of money, extraordinary more than anyone should reasonably need in a lifetime for them and their heirs, that they put a lot of energy into getting better tax breaks and getting, you know, better shelters and getting all that.
It's, it's like, that doesn't make sense on just a logical level, but it's doing something to them.
It's a different operating system in a, in a sense.
So there's a, there's a lot there.
There's a there's in my own journey with this, but also with my own clients, that's.
That's what I've experienced with them is that this kind of never enough sense when, when you have something same thing, by the way, with fame when people are famous um they, they are um they, they want the next tier of fame um, and then there'll be okay.
And then when they have it, then they want the next tier of fame.
And uh, without crossing any lines here in terms of boundaries, I have for a number of years worked backstage at, like the CMA awards or Bonnaroo or other kinds of events.
That's, and it's a really cool, we partner with a nonprofit.
They've got a QR code on the wall.
The.
A performer or a crew member can scan it.
Book an appointment on the spot.
Go upstairs to a suite private.
And this is one of the themes that does come up a lot is someone who's at this level of feels like they are being disrespected because they're not at this level.
And so they're there among other people that have higher.
You know, they're hotter right then, or they have greater status.
And then people are feeling like they're being overlooked because their level of fame or you know, kind of being the it person is not as strong as the other person.
And again, I'm not trying to overstep anything here, but you get my point.
It's fame and wealth do something to people.
And a lot of times it's not a good thing.
Yeah, and I think it harkens back to our discussion about habituation as well, because you start to become desensitized to the level of privilege and wealth that you've accumulated, and then the novelty has worn off.
But then you blend that with constant comparison where you're saying okay cool, I compared myself to these people before, and now I have surpassed them.
But now, since I'm on this other level, I can see people at the higher tiers, and now I feel inadequate again.
And we can see it's just a never-ending battle.
And I think this is helpful, because there are two paths that I want to take with this conversation too.
Because One path is.
I want to think about how we negotiate in terms of just our everyday conversations and how we can set boundaries to live this psychologically rich life, now that we have a little bit more clarity on what that truly means.
But then on the other side, and I think this might be the shorter discussion, so we could check this off first.
It's going to be interesting because from time to time you might have an opportunity to negotiate with somebody who is rich and or famous.
And you have a conversation, but psychologically, the operating system is slightly different.
So let's say you're trying to negotiate an opportunity that might be, okay, I see this person.
I've admired them for a long time.
I have this one shot to have a conversation with them.
What are some of the psychological considerations to keep in mind during a conversation with a person like that?
Okay.
That's a great question.
And I'm going to open it up a little big first and then we'll get smaller, hopefully.
So are you familiar with the five factor model of personality?
What we sometimes call ocean OCEA.
Okay.
So backstory on on ocean is that there've been all these psychological tests for decades and the back in the day some people did a what's called a meta analysis, where they take everything, put it in a big stew and then they look at everything together.
And the short version of this is it seemed that these tests were all measuring five things.
They might call them different things, but they were all five buckets.
And those things were Openness, particularly openness to new experiences, new ideas.
That ties into psychologically rich for sure.
Conscientiousness, which is being responsible, consistent, reliable.
Extroversion, which is being outgoing, energized by people, energized by new social experiences.
Agreeableness, which is being easy to get along with.
Um, very pleasant.
And then neuroticism, which was a big bucket, which was all the negative stuff.
Uh like just experiencing negative emotions a lot, not managing emotions.
Well, uh, being prone to, uh, anxiety and depression, that kind of thing.
So that's, that seemed like that was the thing that all these were more or less measuring.
The research on wealthy people in particular is that the first three, they're higher than usual.
And the last two, they're lower than usual or typical.
So they tend to be more open to new ideas.
They take risks more.
Not necessarily bad risks, like good risks.
But they're quick to make a judgment, often based on a lot of database in their head and a lot of experience, and they take the risk, but in a calculated way.
But they're open to new ideas.
They're open to pitches.
They're open to something that might be novel.
They're open to something that might be – you're getting in on the ground floor of something that's really cool.
They're also more conscientious, which means they do their due diligence.
They – follow through.
They're going to cross the T's, dot the I's more consistently.
They also tend to be outgoing and sometimes charismatic, not always, but often very more forward with other people but more disagreeable.
They don't care if you... And again, we're generalizing.
I mean broad generalization but often very willing to fight hard in negotiation, very willing to act in a way that it doesn't matter if you care for them or like them or whatever, as long as they get their way.
And then also low on neuroticism, which is actually a plus, which means that they don't tend to get as waylaid by negative emotion stress.
They don't tend to get as depressed and anxious.
Now, I'll put an asterisk by that for later because there's an asterisk by that.
So I think that has some relevance in terms of negotiation.
It's like you're talking by and large to someone, And a lot of this applies to well-known people as well.
By and large, you're talking to someone who's open to a new idea, who's open to let's explore what the possibilities are here.
Let's venture into this territory.
But they're not going to be gentle in the negotiation always.
They're going to be – more rough they're going to tend to be, more the outcome is going to be more important than the interpersonal.
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Transcription by CastingWords with Brevo and aura connection.
And and for you.
One of the things that I love about your work is how you you know sort of foundationally about um, you know, compassionate curiosity and and, and that is exactly.
I mean that that's a perfect match for what we're talking about, but it, in some instances, with people that are very low on agreeableness, that's a hard, that's hard posture to take.
Oh yeah.
Oh, this is great.
Such a great breakdown because what we're seeing, like you said, they're open.
They're open to new ideas.
They're willing to take risks, but they want, they are very, they're not very tolerant of bad terms.
So they're going to they have high standards for themselves.
I'm going to shoot for the moon.
And then also the.
I think the the low in neuroticism is something that is not explored enough when it comes to just what it takes to be a high flyer in an high achiever.
Because I think the the epitome of this.
Sometimes I like the avatars for the different personality types.
It would be James Bond for low in neuroticism, where he's unflappable.
Things are blowing up, people are dying and he just has this, this disinterested look.
You know, and if you are in a like a physical fight and you can take more damage, then even if you're not as good of a fighter, you're probably going to win.
If you're in a race, even if you're not faster but you can last longer, then you're going to win in these types of negotiations, in your career as a whole.
If you can be more tolerant to pressure and adversity, then you're going to be more successful.
So this personality cocktail makes a lot of sense.
And tell me if this lands, because it sounds like they...
Getting them to entertain a new idea might not be difficult if you can get beyond the gatekeeper.
It's just a question of whether or not you can make it enticing enough for that person and also recognize that if you are going to try to collaborate with them in any type of way.
They are going to be fighting zealously for their side.
They'll probably have more power and or leverage in the interaction and they'll recognize that and lean on you for it.
So even if they do take advantage of the opportunity that you're providing, the terms might not be as beneficial.
So you need to be prepared to protect yourself in the negotiation.
That's right.
Yeah, they're not going to be a pushover by and large.
And interesting thing to kind of expand this idea is.
And again, I've already said this, but I just want to make this point.
This isn't true of all wealthy people or all famous people or whatever.
People are different.
We're just talking about, by and large, how do these things tend to look?
And what's interesting about wealthy people by and large, particularly people that they have become wealthy later on through some business venture or something that they've done or built?
They are very low in being impulsive.
They are not impulsive, but they're very high in being intuitive.
They trust their gut.
So if you follow the difference there is, you're not going to get them in a negotiation to swing in a direction just based on luck.
You know the impulsive moment.
You know they're not going to be wowed by something and then just go.
But they will trust their intuition a lot more than other people.
They're much more willing to take a risk based on that intuition.
So those things you know there's nuance in that, but those things are, in my mind, super helpful in terms of the kind of negotiation work is like You're not going to bowl someone over who's a hard-nosed business person, but they are going to be willing to entertain an idea that resonates in their gut, because their gut is a massive database.
It's not just a subjective feeling.
It is drawn from A couple decades of experience of this works, this doesn't.
This kind of person who's driving this can get it done and this one probably can't.
That kind of thing.
100%.
And let's speak to intuition a little bit more, because I think it's a concept that is not well understood.
But then also what that means for us in the context of the negotiations.
So, for me, one of the things that I've been trying to do and I talk about it all the time, but I'm a chess nerd
I love playing chess.
But in particular, I love bullet games.
So one minute for each part. participant, and then you just go rapid fire.
So I played over 23,000 games online, now got up to the 99th percentile on chess.com.
It's an addiction.
It is an addiction.
I love that.
Thank you.
But one thing that I've been trying to do in the last few months is operate more purely on feel.
Obviously, chess is an intellectual strategic game.
But after 20000 plus games you start to recognize patterns and you can recognize it in your gut a little bit right.
And so when people are Often, when they think about guts, like going with your gut or your instincts or your intuition, it seems a little bit woo-woo and difficult to understand and almost whimsical or impulsive.
But really, at the end of the day, it is a deep-seated understanding of the patterns that you've been observing for the entirety of your life.
And so now you're let's say, if we're using a condiment language from thinking fast and thinking slow, we would be saying all right, system one has been so well honed that you can get a feeling of what is right or wrong, what works, what doesn't work, without needing to utilize system two.
It, And so you can get that gut instinct and kind of go with the flow.
But then, of course, due diligence would be recruiting system two and thinking consciously about it.
The reason I wanted to bring that up is because we can recognize that the person who is a high value, high status, wealthy person, they would be willing to entertain the conversation.
And tell me if I'm off on this, but it seems like they will trust their gut to few minutes.
It's not resonating.
You run the risk of, if you don't sell them quickly, they might write you off quickly because they trust their gut.
And they're like, okay, I'm not feeling this.
I'm out.
And then you might lose your opportunity.
Is that part strategically sound?
I would say by and large, yes.
I would agree with that.
Yeah.
I think that it fits with what we know.
And that is that You're talking with someone who they're used to making decisions.
They've got a big database in their head.
And so yeah, they're going to size you up personally and your idea up in a few minutes, more than likely.
One of the things I want to add to what you said, which, by the way, I love the chess thing.
That is amazing to me.
We should have a whole conversation on just that.
I'm not kidding.
I love that.
And so what you're describing is now getting to this point where you've put in 23000 games, that there is this ability to take that and then move it into this more automatic process.
So here's the story I'll tell you.
I went to UNC for graduate school.
I was there during the Dean Smith era.
And for people who don't remember, Dean Smith, legendary coach, one of the winningest coaches in college basketball.
One of the things that was fascinating about Dean Smith is he would take a very good player like Michael Jordan or James Worthy or others.
Huber Davis, who now is the coach in the same position he had.
And he would break down their game into the micro parts.
In other words, he would work on just the mechanics of passing, the mechanics of a free throw, the mechanics of the dribble, to the point where they would actually get bad first and then they would get good.
So he would kind of reform their foundational skill and then, Once they did that, the human brain just is very plastic in that way, and then it responds.
Then they have the foundation really solid and then they could bring the sort of natural greatness that they had to kind of elevate to another level.
And so what you would consistently see is often sort of mechanically a little clunky at first for some of his players, and then just explosive growth.
And they would get more readily into what psychologists call flow state.
And that's what you're describing, I think, when you're talking about the bullet games is you're in a flow state, which is where you are not sitting there with higher order thinking frontal lobe very slow, kind of like all the mechanics of it.
You've got it already.
And so you're able to sort of access that in an instant.
These neural pathways have become T1 cables.
They light up in a millisecond.
And so that's really what is this sort of going with flow or getting in flow, going with feel, things like that.
And bringing it back to our point.
I think that's where, from a business standpoint, negotiation standpoint, you're talking with someone who can get there very quickly.
Yeah.
Because there.
So you know, if you're younger in your career and you're talking with someone who's been very experienced and done this, they're going to.
Their brain will move very quickly.
They're going to, they're going to, you're going to be here.
And the risk is that they're already out here.
They know where you're going.
They're sizing you up.
They know it.
So you, you need to stick the landing relatively quickly and not in a way that feels uh, hurried or forced or um anxious, but in a way that feels confident.
Yes.
And that is a tough line to toe because you recognize that there can be a feeling of time pressure.
So you have to be able to manage your emotion, but you also have to be efficient with your communication and get to the point quickly without seeming rushed.
Because if you seem rushed or panicked or weak, then they would even say maybe even if this is a good opportunity, is this person on my level?
Like, is this a person I want to be surrounded with?
It seems like they can't hang.
So it's tough.
And then when you think about again the, the latter half of the acronym where we're talking about lower in agreeableness and lower in neuroticism, they will be more willing to be disagreeable, more willing to interrupt you.
That's a blend of the high extroversion too.
So if you're slow with what it is that you're saying, they'll be like, okay, get to the point.
Well, what about this?
What about this?
Well, I'm getting to that.
Get there faster.
And since they're low in agreeableness, they're okay with doing that.
And low in neuroticism, they're not really going to feel that bad about doing it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know we see that in in our clinical work with wealthy people is that this is one of the things that's super different about them compared to other clients is most clients come in.
Let's say you've got a parent with a 16 year old who's concerned about their kid.
The parent will come in and they'll sometimes tearfully talk about their kid and they'll just say I want him to be happy and all the things, normal things.
And they're kind of laying out what they're concerned about and then wanting you to give them not only hopefulness but a sense of where, how.
How will you handle this?
Where will you go?
A wealthy person.
And again, not always, maybe not even most of the time, but but much more than any other kind of group of people.
We'll come in and tell you what you need to do.
You know, I mean they'll come like I've done my job for 30 years and they'll say okay, here's what you?
You know, these are the things you need to focus on.
This is what you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so that becomes a negotiation in my work about like this sort of responsiveness to I.
Want to hear you and your concerns, but I'm.
It doesn't work if you're driving the show and I become just an extension of you.
Yeah.
And I become the third parent here who's just wagging my finger about why you shouldn't smoke weed or why you should be more motivated with school, or why you should.
You know all that kind of stuff.
But it's very common.
And again, we don't think about it in my field a lot about negotiation in the same way that you do.
But it is.
That's what it is.
The wealthy parent will come in, tell you what to do, and then becomes a negotiation about like.
Who sets the goals here?
How are they set?
How are they achieved?
So we see it even in our work.
Wow, that's fascinating.
So you really need to be able to, whoever you happen to be interacting with somebody who's high status
You need to be able to hold your own.
And since we already nerded out on chess, let me give you one more reference.
We have in chess, there's a concept called the initiative.
So, just simply put, it's the essentially a strategic evaluation of who is responding to whom on the board.
Right.
So am I making moves and you are reacting, then I can position you well and take advantage.
In these conversations.
Something that is not explored enough is the concept of the initiative of the conversation.
If you think back to some of the conversations in your life whoever you and the listeners that have not gone well, a lot of times you can say you can get a feeling like this is not going well and I don't have control.
And then a lot of times, if you don't have the conversational skills you're like, and I don't know why,
So it feels very helpless sometimes.
And so if you can start to pay attention to who has the initiative in the conversation, then you can be more sensitive to that shift in the initiative and address it sooner, because momentum is another concept we have to consider.
So let's make it really clear.
So if we're thinking about having a conversation with somebody who's high valued.
They might slowly start to take the initiative and start giving you orders.
You react, you respond.
They're the ones asking the questions.
Now they're in complete control of the conversation.
And so a very simple thing that you could do as a pivot is they're making a demand, or they might be asking these leading questions.
You just say, okay, let's slow down for a second.
Before we get into this, I want to ask you a question.
And now slowly, now they are starting to react to you and respond to you.
So you're slowly starting to take the initiative back.
Because if you don't, then you're not going to be able to hold your ground and you're going to lose control really quick.
All right.
Let's talk about something that's actually a negotiation skill.
Taking care of yourself before you show up to negotiate with anybody else.
Because if you're tired, stressed, and running on fumes, you're going to make worse decisions.
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Are you familiar with the concept in counseling or psychology in therapy, of called motivational interviewing?
Ah, yes.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so motivational interviewing is a is a model that was started for people that have problem drinking and now has been expanded to other kinds of problems but also just other uh issues that need to be addressed.
And motivational interviewing is where you draw out from the person their motivation rather than imposing it on them.
And paradoxically, sometimes exactly what you're talking about when you've got someone coming in and they're going to boss you around.
And the reason why you are going to not just go with that simply is because if you allow that to be the frame that they dictate how this goes, it's not going to work.
It's not about whether you need control or whether you're getting your feelings hurt or anything like that.
It's really to set this up so that if they're the client, this is going to work, or if their child is the client, it's going to work.
And so that framework is in line with what you're talking about where it then begins to you you, you take the sort of what's coming at you and then you move it back with good, curious questions and and you, and and you shift the dynamic in the subtle way where they still have the sense of I came up with this idea often, but more in a way that isn't this kind of hierarchical thing where they're coming in and bossing you.
I'm talking now as a therapist, but you in whatever role you're in, And so the ability to take that sort of energy coming at you and then, in a compassionate gentle, curious way, in line with your kind of work, to go back at them, really begins to in.
There's a there's a subtlety, but a very real thing.
That happens there, where it shifts that dynamic in in that meeting.
It's really the art of being curious and asking good questions and drawing things out from a person.
It's like it's conversational jujitsu, you know, or judo.
We take their energy and then throw it back.
But in a compassionate, communicative type of way.
Yeah.
With curiosity as the foundation.
And when we think about now shifting to the again, going back to the psychology of a good life for ourselves, one of the things that's going to be the most important indicator of the quality of our lives, or the perceived quality of our lives, is the quality of our relationships with the people who are closest to us.
And with your work.
What are those tough conversations with family and friends that we often need to have but maybe might shy away from, to our detriment?
To bring this into and redirect me if I don't answer your question right on.
But if we're talking again like someone who is a person that has, you know, high net worth, a wealthy person, the part that we've alluded to but not really talked about very much is that the downside of that.
We've talked about some of the upside, we've talked about some of the differences in personality, but the downside is that people that are wealthy tend to be not more narcissistic and selfish.
Again, broad generalization, but tends to be true.
One of my favorite studies This is one of bunches of studies, but one of my favorites was that these researchers went out to an intersection in San Francisco and they looked at who kept the laws and ordinances around crosswalks and stops and all that right in this intersection.
And then they coded it by the value of the car.
And you know where this is going that people that had very high-end luxury cars.
The rules did not apply to them.
They blew through the stops.
They blew through the crosswalks even if people were waiting.
And so that's one of the risks is that with high net worth, is a risk of either becoming more selfish and narcissistic or being that way and being attracted to needing to get that net worth.
That's one thing.
Related to that is a tendency to be less ethical in interactions and in negotiations.
And again, there are other studies that make this point.
They'll do studies with games and, And they will actually track whether someone cheats in the game.
And if someone has higher net worth, their risk is higher to cheat in the game.
That's just, again, a small sample of a bigger thing.
The other piece, and this might open up a bigger conversation, is a tendency to be lower in empathy.
I think that's a biggie.
And you're aware of this.
I'm aware of this.
There is this movement in our culture to say that empathy is bad.
And it is the most insane thing maybe in my lifetime.
I can't get my head around it.
And obviously, the movement is driven by a need to kind of justify certain behaviors.
Right.
It sort of makes make certain behavior acceptable.
It's like and to diminish this idea of empathy, which, by the way, there are things circulating.
I've seen this on social media within the last week.
They're just patently false.
Somebody said there's this 15 year study from Yale that says that people that are empathetic are they burn out and they're like well.
First, produce the study for me because I bet you can't.
And second, it doesn't line up with what mounds of other studies show.
And mounds of other studies say that people that are empathetic do not burn out more easily.
If they make less money, it's out of a sense of mission and calling where they work for a nonprofit or something like that.
And it aligns with their own values. and that their interpersonal relationships are much better.
And it also is a safeguard in terms of physical health.
The benefits of empathy far outweigh the downside.
This movement culturally in this last few years.
To say that empathy is toxic, it's bad, it's a sin is patently false and wrong.
But Just to kind of recap when you're talking with someone that is wealthy, high net worth, the risk for that person and the downside for that person is greater narcissism and selfishness, less ethical behavior and less empathy.
Again, I agree.
I know I, this is, I don't need to keep saying this, but I'm going to just make this point again.
This is not true of all wealthy people.
I know some very wealthy, some of my best friends are very wealthy.
They take us on vacation every year with, with their five couples.
They pay for vacation.
We go to really fun places.
We go spend a week on a catamaran in the British Virgin islands and so on.
And they are not just with their friends, but in general, they are, Quietly generous.
They are amazingly empathetic.
They are some of the kindest people that I've ever met.
So please hold that vision of it with what I'm saying.
I'm just saying the risk is higher.
And so I don't know if that nailed your question exactly.
But but what I'm trying to say is when we're talking about the interpersonal part of this, where.
Where wealth begins to interfere is on these levels of relationships.
Someone can be very wealthy.
If they are narcissistic and selfish and low in empathy, they can be extraordinarily successful in their career and a complete disaster in their interpersonal relationships.
And that's often what we see clinically in our practice is that we see people come in that have nailed it career wise.
They're rich, they're famous, one or the other, both.
And their interpersonal life is a shambles because of the things we just described.
This makes so much sense.
And it makes me wonder how much of this is kind of chicken and the egg.
You know because, for instance, we could say you know, if you're seven feet tall, it increases the likelihood you're going to be in the NBA.
But, you know, being in the NBA doesn't mean that it will make you seven feet tall.
Right.
Right.
But if you're seven feet tall also, you're probably going to have a lot of different health issues that come along with it.
So let's bring this to the to the rich and famous here.
Because those characteristics that might not be very pro-social, like engaging in unethical behavior, not empathizing too much,
And people don't recognize there's a cost for compassion.
There's a cost for care.
And if I don't care about my opponents or the people in my way, then I can just move through and create a lot of collateral damage.
But it doesn't really matter to me as long as I'm getting what I want.
And so we can see how those psychological tendencies could lead them to get to where they are.
But also, like you said, it could have very deleterious effects on the person when it comes to their personal life.
And now, again, we are not generalizing.
We recognize not everybody fits into this bucket.
But it seems like it would be wise for us, as we're having conversations with people who are of higher status, higher wealth, higher recognition, for us to just say let's keep this in mind, because I might need to watch my back a little bit more, because it is possible, perhaps probable, that these psychological tendencies are what led them to this position.
So I need to make sure that I'm protecting myself, because it might not be the wisest decision to assume that they will be looking out for my best interest in this interaction.
Absolutely.
And the part I'll add to go back to your chicken and egg piece is My guess is that a lot of listeners and viewers of your podcast are people that are successful in business, want to be successful and are making strides toward that.
And so one of the cautions that I'm just putting out there is that and this is part of the reason why I want to have this conversation anyway is that someone may have a tendency to be more narcissistic and lower in empathy.
And that is part of the engine that's driving them to be in this high status position.
And that, if that's the case, then for those people, what I often say and we'll just put it out there directly is you need to know yourself.
And you need to reflect on yourself as much as you can, because if that stuff is part of the engine here when you get there, it will never be enough.
And the risk is that your relationships will.
You might now, because you're wealthy, attract a more beautiful partner, or something like that.
But once you get into the muckety-muck of relationship, if you haven't addressed that stuff it will not go away.
It will be a bottomless pit.
And so that's what I want to put out there is know yourself, know what's driving that.
Conversely, let's say, that hasn't been foundationally true for you and you get to this place of high status.
You really need to guard yourself against the, the tendency to be more self-centered, the tendency to operate in a way that is selfish.
I literally again without any disclosure here had this conversation this week with a client who's on the verge of a breakthrough.
And this is exactly the conversation that we had to have, which is um the the, the rap on him is that he can be very difficult and there are other words that have been used to describe him, and he's reporting this to me and i'm saying this is going to be problematic for you because if you do hit this other place, the interpersonal part is going to, is still going to remain a problem and it's going to hurt you professionally and personally.
So I think it's a point worth lingering on, because if someone has a tendency toward that and that's part of what's driving them to hit this high status, my encouragement to them is for them to reflect on themselves and then begin to do their own work on that now.
And let's say that that's not their tendency and then they get there.
There's going to be a lot of forces that are going to move them toward being more self-centered that they need to safeguard.
And that includes not only self-reflection, but who they surround themselves, with what voices they're listening to.
Yeah.
And this is a perfect tie back to what we were talking about at the beginning with living a psychologically rich life, because what we're seeing is that you could be rich and well and famous, but still not have a psychologically rich life.
If you're not being mindful of this,
So I think it's important for us to to understand this foundation.
And I also think this is a great time to bring Simone in, because I always want to bring him in to ask a question after everything that he's heard.
Simone, what's coming to mind for you?
There is a trend that I've seen in Latin America.
I don't know if this works like that in another culture.
So sometimes when let's say a family, one person in the family, maybe the son, the oldest son becomes really successful.
So that person in that family start helping maybe the siblings or his mom but then they feel entitled to tell them what to do.
Like, okay, I help you.
Let's say we are brothers and I have more money than you.
So I help you to buy your car.
I put 50% of your car.
So then, when you're planning on going on vacations, I tell you no, you shouldn't spend your money like that, because you have no money.
So I start giving you instructions just because I have higher status.
And this is a trend I've seen there.
I don't know if it works like that here, but I don't know if that's narcissistic or not.
Because they help you, but at the same time, they tell you what you should do with your things.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think it is cross-cultural.
We definitely see it in our culture in the United States.
And I don't know that it's necessarily a narcissistic drive for that.
But what happens is that there's this power differential.
And so someone has become wealthy or well-known, and then they have a desire to help their family.
But then they're sitting in a position where, because they've been successful, often they feel like they've got the path forward.
And then they see the people that they're helping might be a sibling, might be a parent not doing that.
And because they have the power, then they start to either dictate the terms of that or they um begin to complain to the person about how they're living.
And um, and then it becomes the the, the support and the and the money become very um conditional, um.
And I have a number of clients like that where – including some on the other side of it where they have, for example, a very wealthy uncle who's supporting this family.
And they feel like their choices in life are being restricted because –
The uncle is saying, no, that pathway, you're not going to make money that way.
You need to do this.
Or I'll help you get a car, but you have to pursue this path.
And, to be very honest, there's not sometimes a lot of good options with that other than to deny the support if you're on the other side of that, or better to early negotiate that out, to anticipate it and then say let's talk about the terms of this.
And then reference that conversation later, because if you just accept it, there is the risk of what you're talking about.
The risk is that now you're beholden to someone who can and again, I don't know that this is necessarily a narcissistic drive always.
I think sometimes it is a misguided or even well-intentioned attempt to help the person, but coming from a place of, I'm looking down on you and I don't approve of these choices.
And so I would want to.
If I were on the recipient end of that, I would want to have a negotiation around.
Are there strings attached?
Are there conditions?
What if I pursue this path?
And work that all out early rather than later.
That would be my advice.
I think that's strong because the early negotiation is important for both sides because a lot of times it's, hey, can I borrow this money?
And then you say yes, and then you just give it.
But at the same time, there are hidden expectations for both parties.
So for the receiving party they might just say yeah, you have way more than you could ever need or spend.
I've been in your life forever.
I don't have that.
Give it to me because it means nothing to you and everything to me.
So thank you.
Yeah, this is the way it should be.
If I were in your position, this is what I would do.
And it's easy for them to say that because they're not in that same position. position.
They don't understand just how challenging it is psychologically to be in that higher status position.
But then the other side says, okay, yeah, I'll give you this money.
That makes me feel good.
But at the same time, now my values are your values.
So if I see you spending money in a way that I don't agree with, then in my mind everybody dime that you spent over what you otherwise would have spent.
It needs to be approved by me tacitly, right.
And so they have all of these hidden uh, hidden expectations, and then they don't explicitly state that and then we only have conversations about it when they're in conflict, Where the person says hey, I'm spending my money the way that I want to.
It's you gave it to me.
Now it's mine.
But and it feels controlling and patronizing for you to be telling me as an adult what to do.
And then the other side feels like hey, this is disrespectful, because now you're spending my money in ways that I don't approve.
It's like, well, it's not your money anymore.
So you see, just like you said, just having this conversation would be better, because then you might just decide, you know what.
Maybe we should not engage in this transaction because of all the complexities on the back end.
Yeah, I think of this as a parent.
I have four adult children.
Actually, we always say we have four and a half kids because we have an unofficially adopted kid.
So we kind of have five adult children.
And what I've learned from my work is exactly where we will occasionally – help our kids.
They're all, they're all in their lives, with their own apartments and our houses and and jobs and so on.
But you know I mean it as a young adult.
Someone is 27, it's it's.
Sometimes you need a little help with something.
And it has been very informative with my work to say I don't want to be in that role where I have this kind of hidden agenda or this i'm giving you money but then you must behave or live or value things in a certain way.
So that's really been helpful for me from my work to see how that gets so sideways so quickly um, and we've really tried just to be very free and open-handed with that when we do support it but also not do what we've seen some other families do, which is undermine our kids and By giving them too much and supporting them.
I don't want my kids to have a lot of money, to be honest.
I mean, if they independently make it and all that, that's their business.
But the other side of it is, you can take the knees out from someone very quickly by giving them a lot of money.
And if they're in a developmental age where they haven't kind of established themselves in their life and career, that can really be detrimental to them.
So we've we've tried to hit that balance of some support, but not to the point where they don't feel motivated or they they, they feel entitled, or all those kinds of things.
Yes.
Oh, that's so fascinating.
That's really fascinating.
I wonder if there's a study on this or you've seen something like this.
It's like, I think about some circumstances.
Honestly, this is not me.
I'm thinking about other people who are complaining about it, where they would give somebody money and then they would just sit there and hate.
Watch them on Instagram.
Like, look at this guy having a good time in Jamaica with my money.
What are you doing?
And it's funny because I think in certain psychologically, it seems as though we have money earmarked for different things.
It's like okay, I asked my rich friend for money.
That money that he gave me is now going to rent and appliances and utilities and things like that.
That's where that money went.
But now all of a sudden I have surplus money.
And so my surplus money goes to these things that are just fun and hedonic, right?
And I'm enjoying my pleasure.
And so it's almost like we treat ourselves like the government.
Like, okay, well, I can't afford this, but I can afford that.
It's like, but it's the same money.
And so I'm wondering if there's like a compartmentalization that happens with the way that we consider money and the way that we spend it, like fun money versus real money.
I don't know.
There's a lot of studies on money.
There's a lot of studies on how people think about it.
And in terms of like saying specifically, here's this particular study.
I can't cite it off top my head, but I would say there's a lot of work around how people think about money, how they um attribute it, what they what, what meaning they make of it.
Um, a lot of the, the, the, when I was working on this book, one of the things that, that was helpful to me is I talked to this man who is past president of the, it's, um, I might get it wrong.
I apologize, Ed, but, um, his name's Ed Combs, but the, um, sort of American financial therapy Institute or something like that.
It's, it's, it's related, it's finances with therapy.
And he just encouraged me to do my own work on money as part of this process, which I did.
And so part of it is like can you tell your own story to yourself or to other people about uh, your journey with money?
Like in other words, what did money mean in your family of origin?
What, what, how, what were the messages you got about money?
And so I'll use myself as an example.
I was raised in a family that had, I would say my parents got married very young.
They established careers.
They ended up doing decently well.
They were never wealthy, but they were making a low six-figure income back in the 80s.
But because they got married so young and they didn't have any instruction in money.
Their view of money was if you have money, then spend money.
If you see something you like, buy it.
If you want to go out to eat, go out to eat.
And so consequently, there was never any message around saving money or letting money work for you or grow.
And that's what I inherited.
And I was well into adulthood before I realized I've got to reckon with this, because I had the same attitude right?
It's like you know, if I made this much money, I'd spend this much money and make this much, spend this much, and so on.
And so I had to do my own work around, Oh, I've inherited these ideas about, about what money means.
And for me what it meant was I wasn't very money oriented, but if I had enough I'd say Oh, I can buy that, rather than thinking about it in in a different way.
Um, I'm still not super money motivated to be honest.
Um, But I have learned to think about it in a way that allows me to be more strategic, more generous with my money, more in a position to help people when I need to things like that.
So I think that exercise is really good.
Go back into your own family of origin.
Think about what messages you got.
Think about the role of money in your family.
Were you poor?
Were you wealthy?
Were you in between?
What messages did your parents give you?
What messages did you inherit later in life?
And how has that shaped your view of money?
It's, again, last point here.
I live just below Nashville in a town called Brentwood.
And if you've ever been to Brentwood Tennessee, you just drive down and there's giant house, giant house, giant house, giant house.
And even the public school, the families are very wealthy.
There are lots of like private schools, where you've got extremely wealthy people.
But even in the public schools,
And so I might see a 16, 17 year old kid that the message that they've got with money is that you have to be in a position in your life where you make a lot of money.
They're not necessarily often coming in saying I'm entitled to all my parents' money, but they are definitely.
They've inherited the message about money that In order for me to be happy and okay, I have to be high status.
So doing your own work on this is super important.
Yes.
No, this, this is great.
And Dave, I could talk to you about this forever, but I want to land the plane here.
But before we do, man, see, this is, this is the problem.
Endlessly curious.
Okay.
So I, you mentioned status.
I want to do a brief exploration into the psychology of status, like what it means, but then also the leverage that comes from that in our conversations.
So my assumption is that somebody who is high status higher status that's easily perceptible by both parties in the conversation that comes with some kind of leverage.
Can you just explore that briefly?
If you talk about wealth, the wealth brings a certain currency.
If you talk about fame, fame also brings a currency.
So there is a currency to fame and status.
And we sort of reflexively respond to people who are well-known in a different way.
We are sort of conditioned to be deferential to someone who is of high status or to want to glom on to someone who's of high status.
Some of this just goes back to caveman brain.
It is, you know like what's, what's the best thing and worst thing in the world when you're a caveman.
Well, worst thing in the world is you kicked out of the cave, right?
Cause then you'll die.
Best thing is to be in a place of esteem where you're surrounded by people.
So you've got the goods, and then you're strong, or you've got something that can provide a, And so you're in a position where you're insulated.
Well, I think we just kind of carry that forward not to be too simplistic about it where someone who's of high status let's just say in terms of their being well-known we reflexively want some kind of association with that, because our brains tell us that that is something of value.
And, consequently, we tend to be deferential to that person.
And I think, from your perspective, with negotiation, that's something again that you have to pay attention to.
That's welling up in you is like why am I responding to this person differently?
In my work, it's super important to pay attention to that because if you don't, you, it changes what you do and don't do therapeutically.
You might back off of a hard conversation that you need to have.
You might, um, move in a direction that you shouldn't move in.
So we have to constantly check ourselves with that kind of thing, with someone who's bringing in a status of wealth or status of fame that for us, um Again, I've said this line before.
We have to know ourselves.
We have to pay attention.
What is the pull that this person has on us and why?
And why am I moving in this direction?
Why am I afraid to kind of tap?
Like, if last hour, if this conversation came up, I would push on this button and this one, I'm afraid to push on it.
Is it because I don't want them to leave and be dissatisfied?
Because I don't want them to to have a negative opinion of me?
Is it because I want to have the association with this person?
And I think that informs what work you do as well where, when someone's bringing that into a negotiation, there is going to be something that you may not be fully consciously aware of.
That you need to sort of back up and reflect on in a mindful way.
Like, oh, I'm responding differently to this person.
Because of their status.
That's super important, I think.
And then last thing, I'll let you go because I could talk to you forever on this, Dave.
But I wanted to make this note.
This is the first time I've said this.
Simone's heard me say this before, but I've never said it on a podcast.
I've recognized that as I've grown in status and recognition I've had to negotiate.
Far less people come into negotiations with me, kind of ready to concede.
And I've had to rely less on my skills.
So I know the skills.
I teach this.
I host this podcast.
So I still know those skills.
But I've had to rely on them less because of status.
Then also, like you said, when it comes to kind of the caveman mentality, we can recognize size and strength.
I've recognized, even when people don't know who I am, just because over the last 10 years I've started.
Lifting like power lifting.
I've recognized people are more deferential just when they in in my presence, just because of the physical size too.
So it's really interesting, but it's important to recognize the impact it will have on you.
And it can be humbling to say, oh my gosh, I was more deferential because of these circumstantial things.
People have mentioned if somebody, if they're negotiating with somebody who is very attractive, sometimes they're more deferential.
So it's important for us to recognize the impact that these things can have on us, so we can then play a little bit better defense and make better decisions in the moment.
Perfect.
Yes.
Status can be wealth.
It could be fame.
It can be attractiveness.
It can be height.
It can be muscular build.
It can be athletic prowess.
It can be right.
So there can be all kinds of dimensions of status that we reflexively respond to.
And most of this is not conscious.
And so, like you're saying, let's say, someone isn't familiar with your work over here, but they see you as a physically strong person.
There's an unconscious thing that might happen in their head when it comes to a negotiation.
And for some persons, it might push a button of like kind of almost like I'm going to go at you.
But most of the time it's going to do the opposite for most people, which is they're going to be more deferential.
And so you're seeing it from the other side, too, which is a great perspective to have.
But but status can be, you know, a very attractive person has has immediate status.
It's one of the biggest forms of currency that someone has, because you don't have to know anything about backstory.
You don't have to know anything about bank account.
You don't have to know anything about success.
It's just like they walk into a room, super attractive person immediately.
They are a person that carries status with them.
So, yeah, we being being aware of this and this is in our training.
This is what we have to work on is like, are you responding to this attractive person differently?
Are you responding to this physically jacked person differently?
Are you responding to this wealthy person or famous person?
It's all very similar.
Yep.
And I think this is the perfect takeaway.
If for the listeners, if you want to become a better negotiator, just get buff, beautiful, jacked, famous.
Like me.
Exactly.
All of the above.
It is purely style over substance.
That's really it.
But Dave, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast today.
This was exceptional.
Before you go, just remind the listeners about your practice, the books and how they can get in touch.
Yeah.
So my most recent book is Working with the Wealthy and Well-Known.
It's by Rutledge.
I will be honest with you.
It is primarily written for practitioners in my field, but the first part of it is really a lot of exactly the kind of conversation we've been having of how do we define wealthy and well-known.
How do we think about that?
What are the perks of those things?
What are the downsides of those things?
There's a lot of parts on there that are just exactly in line with our conversation.
So that's part of why I'm privilege to be an honor to be able to talk with you about it.
And so, and my practice is in Nashville and it's called Southeast Psych Nashville.
We've got a great practice, but I and I love to.
Part of my personal mission is to give away psychology as much as possible.
That's particularly exciting for me to talk to you because that's what you do well is that you, it's one of the things you do well is incorporate really good, solid psychology into the field that you're in and how that informs negotiation and business practice and so on.
So we're very much aligned in what we're doing missionally.
Yes, absolutely.
Well, thank you again, Dave.
This was phenomenal.
Really appreciate it.
