Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable. You're listening to Roundtable with myself, young.
I'm joined by Yushun and Steve Hatherley in the studio coming up.
Is chasing high salaries and cushy perks of full-zaroned for true job satisfaction?
Would I even to why real jobs satisfaction often defies these conventional metrics?
What can you do to find joy in your work?
And our special segment, Motivational Monday, coming your way, will give you that adrenaline shot for the start of the week.
Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcast.
If you have questions that you want us to answer on social issues, business, technology, or whatever moves your spirit, you can send those our way.
There's a place to it, eZFM, aroundtableatfoxmail.com.
Emails are fine, but voice memos are always better, and we'd really appreciate it if you could include your name and region of residence in that voice memo, so we know a little bit more about you as we attempt to provide the best answer.
There can be for you! Now, on Roundtable, as we move on to the next topic of discussion today.
Ever wondered why some people seem to thrive in their work, while others just slog through it?
We discuss how to turn your daily grind into an exhilarating adventure using insights from self-determination theory or SDT, and we'll also explore psychological strategies that can transform your work experience.
Turning routine tasks, possibly into sources of sources of joy and fulfillment.
I hope that wasn't an oversell.
Let's try our best. First of all, guys, how happy are folks about their jobs?
Well, let's start with you personally.
Oh, it's getting so personal already.
If you don't mind, job satisfaction for you.
Do you enjoy what you do?
I think if we're doing this question, I am 80% satisfied with my job.
What are some of the things that you really enjoy about it?
I think it is what we are doing right now, because it is something I've been expected for my whole study.
Of course, the content of my job is something that I can use that I learned from my school.
So basically, I am utilizing the knowledge that I learned and I am trying to do my best to get some of the achievement from this.
And then that is why I think the satisfaction of my job is I think quite high.
80% is quite high. That is quite high.
What do you enjoy about your work, young?
Oh, going around the table already.
Well, why don't you share your thoughts first?
Were you a lawyer in your previous life?
Well, I did think about getting into the legal profession, but I didn't because I like this job so much.
One of the things I love most about my job is I get to laugh every day.
You know, I think a lot of people when they go to work, they miss out on that opportunity to smile and laugh and have a good chat.
And that's exactly what we get to do with each other.
But the added bonus is we get to share that information with the person who's listening to us right now.
And maybe make their day a little bit better too.
So my job satisfaction in the broadcast industry has always been really, really high.
Yeah, oh, that is a really good point.
I think the best part of our job is we get to connect with people.
Yeah. And I think that adds a layer of there's meaning to this job.
And I've talked to many of my friends who work in different professions and a lot of them work in office jobs.
And one of the things that people struggle is once you work for a big organization for some time and then gradually you feel like you're just quote unquote a cog in the machine.
And that's when you feel you're kind of disposable.
And you feel like you're disconnected to your job to people.
And that's such a terrible feeling to experience, especially when you wake up in the morning.
And that's one of the first things that you feel.
All right, well, let's dive in and see what we can learn from this here in China, according to a 2020, 2022 report on white collar job satisfaction from Jaopin, which is a Chinese recruitment company.
The data shows there that there is a decline in the satisfaction index to 2.39, which is down from 2.91 in 2021.
Aka people in the white collar industry are not as satisfied with their jobs as they were in the past.
Now, if we compare that globally, there was a 2019 global report from Ransstad work monitor.
That's a that's a group that was launched in 2003.
Pretty interesting. What they do is they cover 34 different markets in Europe and Asia and the Americas and they measure the gap between the reality and the wishes of office workers.
It's kind of a fun read if you want to scroll through that site.
Anyway, here's what they found internationally.
People in India are the most satisfied with their work.
The Japanese are the least satisfied out of the 34 countries survey.
Only 42% of Japanese people said that they were satisfied with their work.
And what's worse is 21% said that they were actually dissatisfied.
So people in Japan not having fun with their jobs these days either.
Yeah, and getting into it in terms of what you were talking about in the opening of the segment, self-determination theory, SDT.
Yes, and before we dive into that theory, I still like to flag a couple of things.
One is the Chinese survey.
That's only according to one platform and there are so many different job recruitment sites out there.
And if you look at national figures, it could speak maybe a slightly different story.
And it's also specific to white collar job satisfaction.
So we have to take that with a grain of salt as well.
Right. So then this is more about office jobs.
It doesn't look at another huge chunk of the labor market.
And for years, the popular saying in the Chinese internet has been that the perfect job is one that offers high pay, a light workload, and proximity to home.
And I love the Chinese of saying of it and just allow me to indulge to dream for one second.
And what is it? Horshaw, Li Jiaji.
And Qian Duo, Li Jiaji. That's also I would like to mention because when we're talking about job satisfaction, that is basically one of the most popular standards that Chinese people would like to use because these, if you have at least two of these elements, and then it is a kind of satisfactory job that you can have.
But if you only have one or none of them, then maybe you would consider getting one or getting two or change your job.
Right. But however true job satisfaction may lie beyond these simple criteria, like you mentioned, what are some common misconceptions that true about what truly makes a job fulfilling or a good one?
All the things you just mentioned, according to this study, salary.
People think, oh, if I have a high salary, I'm going to love my job.
Apparently false. Commute or distance to work.
If it's really close, I'm going to be really happy.
Not necessarily. Office environment, working hours.
All of those things are the typical things that we think will make us happy when we go to work, but not according to self-determination theory, which is SDT.
And this is the work of Edward Deci and Richard Ryan talking about salary and bonuses and commute and distance and office environment.
Those are considered to be extrinsic motivations because they come from outside of one self.
So we're going to talk about two terms here, extrinsic and intrinsic motivations.
Extrinsic is up first. Things that are outside you and you and me, your salary.
That's not coming from within you.
Right. That's just something that's offered by the company.
The time it takes you to get to the office and to get back home, that's extrinsic because it's not coming from within you.
Intrinsic is the opposite.
And they say that intrinsic motivation is what will really make you satisfied with your job.
And the reason I asked you, you shouldn't about the specifics about why you liked your work, was to see if you were going to talk about some intrinsic motivations.
You said that what you studied in school is part of what you're using in your current work.
And that gives you satisfaction.
That's intrinsic motivations.
I think each of these points make sense.
This extrinsic motivation, yes.
It also depends on your overall maybe state of mind or overall work pressure at that time.
If you are a level of unhappiness, far outweighs the satisfaction, these things that brings you, I mean, just salary and commute distance, then no matter how high your salary is, you might not be able to continue.
So, of course, intrinsic, it's something that if we're talking about job satisfaction, then important to consider when we are talking about it.
Right. I think you guys make a good point that it's often a mix of these different factors and you're kind of weighing each one of them and then see which combination sort of weighs more and the other ones a bit less.
And then that might determine how happy we are about our work and also how long you've been doing this job.
It has something to do about it as well.
Because to prepare for this discussion, I chatted with a friend who's an ex colleague who has resigned for more than five years.
Okay. So nobody needs to go out and guess.
So we both started off as ideal journal, idealistic journalist, fresh out of school.
And I remember this call ex-colyg and I had a discussion back then.
And I think we're at the only two people that were like, yes, we're completely on the same page here.
That is, back in the day, it was the first five years of our career.
And we work in an international environment.
We speak English at work sometimes.
And so often, you know, it's six o'clock and everybody's ready to get off work.
And both of us in different offices, we would be working longer hours.
And then we had a choice by choice.
We know we're not getting paid.
And then there's this American guy, a colleague would come in and say, well, like, you're still working, get off work, get a life.
And then exactly that tone.
I don't think he meant to be condescending or anything.
But it conveys a sort of life attitude.
And as I and my friend sort of compare notes later on and both of us were like smirking.
We're like, he doesn't understand the true essence of work.
He doesn't get it because you're just starting off.
You get these rewards as in, you know, you're progressing in how in your career and also you're getting better at what you do.
And maybe if you're so lucky, you're getting accolades as well.
And maybe a small raise, although, you know, my friend told me for the first five years, her mom was secretly slipping her money to support her for her rent in Beijing.
But it kept us going no matter what because of the intrinsic motivations.
But then, oh yeah, and there was another, another little personal anecdote in both of us where we're women.
And we were like back then, oh, we're not interested in men.
That's like so less interesting than work.
That's not going to help my career, right?
No, it's just because the the thrills and then the the the gains you get from work that and you're getting better at what you do.
And once you put in work, you're guaranteed that you get better at presenting, you get better at broadcasting, get better at writing these new stories.
And then that hard work actually goes somewhere.
But with guys, you can work your socks off and trying to get his attention.
And maybe he's with you for for for two months and then it goes south.
There's no guarantee. And then we were just so hardworking.
We had our dreams. We wanted to fulfill them.
And it was an era in China when the economy was booming.
And then it was just up and up and up.
So a lot of people shared that kind of sentiment.
And yeah, but as time moves on.
And as I checked with my friend yesterday about this topic and she's like, oh, hey, I feel so different about this now.
How shallow, stupid, not stupid, immature of me back then.
And how could we say that?
Oh, man, we're not interested.
We are interested. And then she she's got a family.
She's got kids. And work is no longer the only thing on the plate.
I think your satisfaction comes from so many different parts of life.
And your satisfaction can change too, right?
What you expect for yourself and what you want for yourself can be different five years from now.
It can be different five minutes from now as a matter of fact.
But the things that you talked about, those are intrinsic motivations.
You were getting a great sense of reward because your hard work, you could see that you were getting better at broadcasting, right?
And that's what they talk about when they talk about intrinsic motivations, um, confidence, freedom.
Think about this. If you made a million dollars at your office, but when you came to work, you had no freedom.
Your boss was constantly looking over your shoulder.
And you didn't have any confidence that you could perform your job well.
Do you really think you're going to be happy at work, even though you had a million dollar salary?
Now I know you're listening right now and you're saying, yep, maybe that number is too high, but you see my point here, right?
You need to find things like confidence.
You need to find things like relationships like, hey, young, you had that friendship with the person in the office.
They talk about the importance of that within intrinsic motivation as well.
I was just about to say how motivational that could be for the motivational Monday then.
But anyway, I think what you were thinking back then is actually one of the factors in this intrinsic motivation or as we call it SDT.
So autonomy is one of the parts that you will need to have when you will like to increase your job satisfaction.
The freedom factor, but what we are calling the freedom is not that you have the freedom to move or to to clock out on six o'clock, but the freedom of do what you will like to do on things that can give you some sense of achievements.
So when you are doing something that you truly want to do, then even though of course we are working for others, but this working for others becomes less burdensome.
And then it becomes more about fulfilling your own personal goal.
And while the paycheck is kind of nice bonus because you have already achieved something aside of that.
So the motivation to do the work comes more from your own sense of accomplishment.
Right. And that's why when they give advice to employers, meaning the company top people about how to better to get better results from their employees, two of the things they talk about increase autonomy with your employees and reduce your micromanagement of them.
Very good point. And can I just offer a part two to my chat with my friend?
Actually, she said like today, now today she's like 38 or something.
And she thinks that that fat paycheck means the world.
You know, so her thoughts have changed a lot.
Because she has to be a baby to feed.
Yeah. Right. So I think in different parts and stages of our life, our priorities, that could change.
And what we see important can change.
And also in recent years, guys, the concept of BS jobs, a term popularized by David.
Great. I think 2013 he wrote that book.
Yes. And it's become really popular in Chinese social media.
He defines BS jobs as a form of paid employment that is so completely pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious, that even the employee cannot justify its existence, even though as part of the conditions of employment, the employee feels obliged to pretend that this is not the case.
And this author who's an anthropologist argues that a significant portion of societal work is pointless and psychologically destructive when combined with a work ethic that associates work with self-esteem.
So if you feel like you're stuck in one of these BS jobs, maybe it's time to stop trying to find meaning or joy in the vehicle matter.
And just see it for what it really is.
Do you think that might be food for thought for people to?
I think it's a case where every situation is different.
But right, every situation is different.
We can't give advice to every single person out there about their own work.
But I can say that that's probably the case for many people.
But if it's not the case for you or even if it is, try to find some motivation from those intrinsic values in the office.
So at the moment that you realize that that three elements that we mentioned before, the proximity, the salary, and the workload, you are not getting any of it, but they are giving you a high, really gross high paycheck.
Maybe you need to stick with it.
And then at that moment, maybe not think about the meaning of your job is the way that you solve this problem.
When you are thinking, is it just part of your daily life and you to go through it to maybe support your other, I mean, reserve a time.
And then there is something that you can, I mean, hold on.
Yeah. And remember, the office is called the office and a job is called a job.
They're not called super happy fun place.
Right. It's not called theme park.
You're going to work. Yeah.
Yes. That's something useful to know.
And coming up motivation on Monday.
It's the hour of roundtable with myself.
Hey, young, I'm joined by.
You shouldn't, and Steve Hatherley for this motivational Monday.
You shouldn't, what do you have for us?
Okay. So my motivational Monday, this week comes from the recently unpredictable weather, actually.
So a few weeks ago, I planned to go hiking in the grasslands of Hubei, which is a city near Beijing and catch the per seed meteor shower.
Actually, that is the best days and best of season of the year to catch it.
But the unpredictable weather at that time caused almost all of our plans to go off track.
So, but, you know, fortunately, once we got there, we realized that besides the meteor shower, there was so much more to enjoy.
The lush grasslands, drifting clouds and endless sky, and also ponies wondering about.
So what I've learned from this trip and also this average changing weather recently is that change is always there.
And then instead of accepting it with frustration, because you need to accept it.
Anyways, why not embrace it with joy?
So perhaps looking at the world from a different perspective can reveal many unexpected surprises.
That is lovely. Yeah, take, take the change as it comes.
Right. Yes. You can't control the rain that falls from the sky.
It'll be really cool if you could.
Oh, yeah. But you can't.
So if your plans get thrown off, just kind of rearrange and move forward and don't get upset about it.
Now, like that. Yeah. And what about you, Steve?
What's your motivational Monday?
1865. Lewis Carroll Alice's adventures in Wonderland.
And I believe it was Alice in the book who said, it's no use going back to yesterday.
I was a different person then.
It might be the quote, I can't go back to yesterday.
You get different sources saying different things.
But anyway, the quote remains the same in its meaning.
And I like this because it implies that we should always be looking forward.
You talked about your friend and the fact that she didn't want to look back to yesterday, but she was regretting some of her things.
This is all about looking forward.
And looking for the positives.
All right. Okay. Well, and that's definitely one of the really fun books that we can always go back and read.
I think I'm also some movies spun from it.
And here's my motivational Monday.
And so it connected to a previous show we've done.
Well, in the past a few days, Chinese video game, black myth, Wu Kong, has taken the world by storm.
And by the way, go do feel free to go check out and revisit the excitement of its release on the roundtable show.
aired on August 21st. And this video game has sold over 10 million copies in the first four days and brought in more than 1.5 billion yuan or 210 million US dollars in revenue in less than a day.
And to put that into perspective, the total revenue for all console games in China for the first half of this year was only 797 million yuan.
So about half of this game has achieved in one day.
And I found motivation in an interview with Fengji, producer of the game and founder of the gaming company called game science behind the video game, who said to the Sun Hua News Agency, in that many people picture our team as a group driven by pure passion and fearlessness.
We appreciate that image, but to keep something sustainable, you have to constantly consider its feasibility.
And we hope to be seen as practical dreamers because it's not the distant summit that trips you up, but the relentless sand beneath your feet and gets into your shoes.
And the sand is relentless, but to reach the peak you have to endure the constant grind.
And after all, the journey is more important than the destination.
And the ideal is like the distant mountain top, but without starting the journey, you'll never reach it.
As you walk, you might feel far from the peak, but when you look back, you'll see how far you've come.
And the path is right under your feet.
And here comes the tagline.
Ta shang qi jinglu, bti daliingshan, gengjongya, sitting foot on the journey to enlightenment is more significant than reaching the sacred mountain.
For game science and for each one of us finding that balance between dreaming big and staying grounded is really crucial.
And only can we overcome hurdles and achieve our dreams that has everything to do with setting foot on the journey first.
And this is one big topic that's got so many people talking.
It's got you shun, well kept him occupied for many nights.
Well only less than a week since yeah, and it seems like we'll need to and it seems like there is a lot of discussion about why this company or this game has become so successful.
I remember once ends this producer also said, I think I also mentioned in the show, he said, when the game is there, completion is more important than perfection.
So when you're starting the journey, it is I think one of the most important steps that you need to take.
Sounds like intrinsic motivation.
It's all connected, isn't it?
Yes, and it seems like with the popularity of a game like this to be able to transcend different cultures to attract a global audience as it did.
I think it's really interesting to see sort of what are the success recipes behind it.
And that's why I went to getting into this interview and all the other things available out there to know more about the story behind the company game science.
And hopefully we can provide some motivation for you.
And don't just look at the on-surface success.
And also can I just personally kind of feel a blotch to highlight success is different in everybody's book.
And here's just one of these motivational offerings that I hope can help you light up the day.
And we'll see you next time on the round table.
