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You can come out as a lion and be proud and be fierce.
You're willing to chew anything in your path.
But at the same time, also sort of have the humility of a lamb.
It's like showing love all the time and caring for your people while at the same time holding a really high bar, because you love them, because you want them to do better, because you believe that customers expect much more from us.
And society wants to see many companies that have triple bottom line fail.
So you got to prove to them that a triple bottom line company can not only survive, but thrive.
That's Anthony Tan, CEO of Grab, the Southeast Asian rideshare super app that's rapidly growing from Singapore to Vietnam.
As Uber expands globally.
I wanted to talk to Anthony about how Grab outmaneuvered Uber in Southeast Asia, eventually acquiring its operations in the region.
I also wanted to know how Grab has unexpectedly become a pioneer in AI implementation.
Anthony talks about how he, quote, shocked the system at Grab to shift mindsets.
Grab may not be a household name in the US, but it's a public company valued at over 20 billion.
That's in many ways, setting the pace for how rideshare and super apps will evolve globally, from electric vehicles and autonomous driving to interacting with local and national governments.
So let's get to it.
I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.
I'm Bob Safian.
I'm here with Anthony Tan, co-founder and CEO of Grab.
Anthony, thanks for being here.
It's a real honor.
So Grab started in 2012 as a rideshare platform.
It's since grown into Southeast Asia's largest platform.
Super app, providing food delivery and financial services is more that the term super app is this increasingly popular concept.
Well, what does super app mean to you?
Well, The super app just means an app that has multiple services.
If you look at how it's evolved here in Southeast Asia.
We started just to solve Southeast Asian problems.
For example, safety.
Safety was a major issue.
We wanted to make sure rides were safe for women and children.
That was a real problem and we solved that.
And we're now at 99.9% safety.
And then we said, okay, what's next?
We realized, wait, but to get drivers, you needed to lend them a phone.
How do you lend them a phone?
Because many of them didn't even have a smartphone.
So we said, we'll start a financing business.
So we have FinTech built into the Grab app.
So it was just like one service after another.
And then, when we said payments, we said hey, you know, the driver became an ATM, you know mobile ATM and it wasn't safe for them.
So we said, you know what, let's just take out cash out of the system.
The drivers have a GrabPay wallet.
The customer has a GrabPay wallet.
So all this just helped build more and more services on one app.
I was going to ask you about the fintech stuff because obviously you're providing a service, but also fintech tends to have better margins than rideshare and delivery, which are tough businesses, right?
How much of the economics was part of the decision where, like oh, that's a gap that is valuable for us to fill.
Sure.
The key is two things.
One, how do you create amazing data?
And two, how do you create an amazing collection, right?
It's easy to lend money out.
The issue is collecting it, right, Bob?
So as more and more services are rolled everyday services are rolled out more and more data is gathered.
As more and more data is gathered.
That data has given us an advantage to lend, because we basically create a credit score across 100 distinct data points.
But it's that massive data advantage that allows us to price risk much better and to collect much better.
You mentioned that Grab operates in multiple countries.
I think eight different countries, if I've got it right.
I'm not sure how many are up to now.
That's right.
For a lot of businesses that cross borders, 2025 has been a challenging year.
I mean, you alluded to it.
There's been sort of geopolitical tensions and economic trade war sparked by the Trump administration.
How does all that impact Grab?
Yeah, the geopolitical environment hasn't been easy.
You know, the tariff wars hasn't been easy.
When factories have to close down because of the tariffs or whatever shocks that are happening.
We are able to cushion all this additional employment.
And governments really appreciate it because they are really concerned when unemployment shoots up.
So they see that we've been able to drive, not just more employment.
You know, within 20 minutes they can sign up to be a delivery partner, to be a driver.
But as we got more supply, actually prices came down.
So, if you look at our financials interestingly, we have more supply, which meant less search sessions, which means lower prices, which means more affordability, which means more customers.
Yet at the same time, our earnings per online hour keeps going up.
So our drivers earn more per hour basis.
So really we're seeing a win-win-win as a counter-cyclical platform across all our cities in the region.
It's been quite a journey.
You went public in 2021.
I know the stock's gone up and down in that time.
Right now, in what ways is your business at an inflection point?
What's the big urgency that you see now?
Is it risk?
Is it opportunity?
What's next?
If you ask me, what's the biggest risk?
I would say, look, for us, it's really about being stagnant.
And I think we talked about the geopolitical environment.
We can weather uncertainty.
We can really help communities become resilient. but we need to constantly change.
So at Grab, we called it.
How do you think about Kaizen, which is just 1?
Better every day for every service.
We just need to be 1% better every trip, every delivery order, every payment.
But that's not enough.
That's just not enough, Bob.
We need what we call Kaikaku, which is another Japanese term besides Kaizen.
It's sort of this step change.
So we call that Gai Gaku, G-A-I, generative AI Gaku, using generative AI to become totally a different company.
And that's what we introduced this idea of AI first with heart.
I wanted to ask you about this.
I saw that last summer you implemented a company pause for a couple of months to upskill your employees on AI, something you called cyborg-anization.
Why was this necessary at that time?
What did it look like?
I think mindset change is tough, especially in an org of over 9,000 people.
First, we had to really upskill folks, but you know, shock the system.
So we did a generative AI sprint.
I spoke to everyone, whether you're from engineering and data science, you're an AI specialist or you're someone just signing up merchants in a tier three city in Vietnam.
And we said for nine weeks folks, we're going to focus on learning and experimenting where the goal outcome was every grabber has to be a technologist, regardless of what backgrounds you come from.
Before we started the sprint, something like 80 of folks were worried that their jobs will be replaced.
But interestingly, by the end of it, 80 was saying they understand generative AI so much better and they can see how it's helping their jobs.
Total mindset shift.
And that's the beauty.
And it wasn't just, hey, we just wanted to create a sprint for fun.
We built real generative AI solutions.
For example, we created AI merchant assistant.
Now that's deployed across millions of long tail merchants.
We worked with the top R&D labs across the world. uh, like, like anthropic.
And yesterday I was just looking at we use cloud four to think about how to make it so much more empathetic, so much more relevant for the merchant.
So now it's helping them, not just boost their sales.
Helping them with photo edits, helping them position how they look on, grab food uh across.
Cut the customers how to pack it.
They even ask questions, Bob, like, oh, you know, business isn't good.
Times are tough.
You know, can you give me some encouragement, sis?
And the merchant assistant talks in such an empathetic, such an encouraging way as their personal best friend.
So that's the type of products that couldn't have come out without this generative AI sprint.
You mentioned that you're working with Anthropic and Claude, but as I remember, you also worked with OpenAI.
You were like their first partner in Southeast Asia, right?
So what's that about?
Like multiple partners is good.
I mean, in some ways it would be easier to lean into one system or not necessarily?
Yeah.
Look, you want to find the best solutions for these real world challenges.
We want to partner the best and we want to find the best models for specific tasks.
When we first started in the early days, I remember we did a change.
We did an update on the app.
And then there was a bunch of really angry drivers and angry customers who came up to us and scolding us.
And we were wondering why.
A few of them were visually impaired.
And because we did an update and they couldn't use the accessibility option.
Today we've been able to work with OpenAI to create using multimodal LLMs on voice specifically, such that they can speak so easily into it, whether you're totally blind or not, and really solve your problem.
And I know you must be thinking hey look, it's not a big set of people who are visually impaired.
But you know what, Bob?
It helps these individuals in such a real large scale impact way to them individually.
We're not just deploying it for as we think about just visually impaired, we're thinking about the elderly group, the silver generation right.
So again, we first started with large impact for a small group of people.
Now we've spread Specialized training.
Now it's going to larger and larger groups, deploy to more and more geographical markets.
So there are scenarios we build on our own.
There are scenarios we partner the best, like OpenAI, like Anthropic.
There are scenarios we partner with the best universities around the world.
But what we do believe is generally partnerships make us stronger.
You know, as you're talking about partnerships Uber, which was initially a competitor of yours Grab, ended up acquiring Uber Southeast Asia business, I don't know six or seven years ago.
And Uber took a stake in Grab.
Uber CEO, Dara Khosrowshahi, he sits on your board.
It's kind of fascinating to go from competitors to sort of allies, right?
Yeah.
What is that relationship like?
How did you manage to beat Uber, which is something a lot of people are struggling with in other markets?
I mean, are there lessons on outmaneuvering other global players?
Absolutely.
How do local, hyper local players like us win?
It's tough, but how do you get problems that no one else can solve?
Uber is a huge company.
There are many great global tech companies that have huge scale, but they won't invest in very unique problems.
Like for example, mapping in Southeast Asia.
We built our own maps.
Our core services are all built on the most accurate maps.
We found that third-party maps were just not accurate enough.
They weren't updated.
They didn't understand where most of our mobility fleet are two wheels, are motorbikes.
Right.
That's why we built GrabMaps.
And it's not only provided us a huge competitive advantage, a huge cost advantage, but it's become now a B2B enterprise service that now Amazon buys from us, Microsoft buys from us.
So that's why we can really understand these local problems and solving them in a hyper-local way.
That leads to a much better service, that creates higher loyalty, higher retention.
I love hearing how Anthony saw something that other big players were missing and leaned into it, and now has clients like Amazon and Microsoft reliant on him.
It's not unlike his all-in embrace of AI.
If Grab is going to go at something, it's going to go hard.
So how is Grab approaching electric vehicles and autonomous driving?
And what makes competing in Asia distinctive from other markets?
We'll talk about that and more after the break.
Stay with us.
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Before the break, Grab's Anthony Tan talked about how the Southeast Asian super app outmaneuvered Uber and how it's going all in on AI.
Now he shares his strategy on electric vehicles, autonomous driving and what stands out about Southeast Asia-based businesses.
Plus, lessons on how to cultivate both hunger and humility to build a winning team.
Let's jump back in.
One of the things Grab has been dedicated to is using a lot of electric vehicles, EVs.
We've partnered with the likes of BYD.
You know, in the U.S., a lot of organizations have rolled back sustainability efforts this year.
What role does that play in your roadmap looking forward?
For us, it's two parts.
The first part.
It is about sustainability, but it's not sustainability for the sake of sustainability.
We have to be honest with ourselves, Bob.
Climate change does impact livelihoods.
Our drivers just recently in Philippines, When there was a massive flood, our drivers couldn't move.
That impacts business.
That impacts their lives.
That impacts their livelihoods, our lives.
And our business metrics dropped in Manila when that happened.
So we have to care about the environment.
When we think about EVs, we think of it in that light.
We need to hit our goal of being carbon neutral by 2040.
And EVs is just part of one of the solutions.
We have invested several hundred millions of dollars in low emission vehicles that are really primarily on our platform, so that we can drive this agenda.
Not all markets have EV infrastructure ready.
You want EVs everywhere, but the problem is a lot of the charging infrastructure just isn't ready.
So we had to partner governments to make sure the EV infrastructure is strong.
We had to work with many companies around to make sure financing is available not just for the EV cars, but also for EV bikes motorbikes, but also for PMDs personal mobility devices.
And then, of course building, as I said, with GrabMaps, we've been able to cut travel time, which again reduces carbon because of our maps, because of our AI that is an auto-adaptive across our entire system.
So for us honestly Bob, it is mission critical and we have very clear goals, very clear plans to get there.
You've been a little bit more cautious about AVs for your markets.
It is going to take a longer ramp up time in Southeast Asia.
Why?
Because the road infrastructure is very different.
Outside of Singapore, it is much messier, to say the least.
It's much less developed.
If you've been to Jakarta or Bali or Phuket or Phuket, It is behind many of the road infrastructures that you're used to in the West.
That's one.
The second is that the labor costs, again, outside Singapore, very, very much lower labor costs.
So for AVs, autonomous vehicles, to take off... in the region.
It needs not only to be as safe as what you see in the US today, but it needs to be much cheaper.
Those price points that you see in the US just can't work here.
It just needs to be much cheaper.
But we are already experimenting.
We've deployed our autonomous shuttle.
We're partnering many autonomous vehicle companies across the region, globally for the region.
And we are just going to just roll out experiments.
Many AV companies might not care about drivers.
For us, we have to care because drivers make up 99.99% of our business today.
So we have to think about not just the displacement effects, but also the augmentation benefits.
So we're really thinking about saying, hey, for every driver, how can he become a safety driver?
How can they become remote pilots during edge cases?
How can we think about them becoming data labelers?
We've been upskilling our drivers for a long time, Bob.
In the driver app you would see how we've partnered Mastercard, how we've partnered Microsoft to have our curriculum and micro learning segments.
We think about how to create new jobs as we think about the AV world.
It sounds like you see plenty of opportunity still in the region that you're in to not have to look further.
As you say, you're in eight countries and all these cities.
Just expanding in those markets is enough right now.
There's so many problems to solve in the region.
And the region is 600 over million people.
It doesn't have the wealth of America for sure, but it does have lots of babies.
It's, you know, double the size of America and double the population size.
But, you know, We literally help reduce unemployment by close to 1% in Philippines.
We generate 0.7% of the GDP of the ASEAN nations, of the big ASEAN nations, right?
But the penetration is still low.
If you look at mobility, it's in the low double digits in some markets, in some single digits.
So do we see huge upside?
Tremendously.
Our fintech is our fastest growing vertical.
And we are looking at dispersing billions of dollars.
We just raised $1.5 billion.
It was eight and a half times oversubscribed.
We are looking at M&A opportunities, not just locally, but also even globally.
Here in the U.S., there is so much attention paid to China, to China's economy.
From your perspective, is the U.S. too obsessed with China?
I mean, what do folks here most misunderstand or underestimate about other Southeast Asian and Asian businesses?
The reality is, the culture here is one that needs tremendous humility but tremendous hunger, all at the same time.
Our leadership culture is based on 4H, right?
Of hunger, of humility, of honor and heart, right?
Hunger, look, we know we just have to outwork everyone because it's a tougher market.
It's much lower margins.
Prices are much lower and just have a much lower cost structure.
Second, You just need to be extremely humble.
Know that you're not the smartest guy in the room.
In fact, most people are smarter than you.
So you just got to take feedback all the time.
I get scolded.
You know, just recently, last week, I got scolded by drivers, by driver leader groups, to say hey, you're not doing a good enough job here.
And I love getting that feedback, right?
You know, just tell it to me so I can learn and iterate.
And then from there, I called my leaders and said, look, these are things we have to change.
And the good news is that because of the culture is so prevalent that they can take the feedback and iterate very quickly, then it's hard to serve.
You know the culture you asked me.
You know in those days and this was pre-Dara you know, with Uber Uber, The culture to work with governments, not fight them, you know head on, but work with them and say look, we're in this together.
The hard to serve communities, the passion to serve.
You know whether it's the vision impaired community, whether it's the silver generation, helping governments grow to digitize their communities and just honor that.
So I can't talk about American obsession, but I can say I think the culture is one part that has made a lot of our global peers sort of look at Asia and say hey, these are things that we could learn as well.
In the early days of Grab, I understand like you put all your money into the business.
You're working 20 hours a day.
You're talking about the hustle there.
Has the job gotten any easier or is it just different now?
Bob, my hours haven't changed, you know, 13 and a half years later.
You know, I still wake up, you know, for this interview at 6 a.m.
You know, I finished work at 11.30.
Look, the reality is it doesn't change and and i i don't want it to change in this, in the sense of i still love.
You know, every week, you know my my, my assistant.
In the early days, you know, I was by the large monsoon drains that were really smelly, you know, pounding the table, screaming louder than the competitors to make sure we were recruiting drivers having, you know, the local chocolate milk to.
You know uh, incentivize them to sign up with us.
That hasn't changed.
Last week i was still with drivers, learning from them and getting scolded.
Not much has changed.
You have so much passion about this and certainly um, your expectations are, are high.
Are you hard to work for?
Like, i mean, you're demanding uh, you know people would say uh, very high intensity.
They would say, but you know, i do believe in this concept.
I i, you know i, i come from a faith that believes that you can come out as a lion and be proud and be fierce and um, you know, you're willing to chew anything in your path but at the same time also sort of have the humility of a lamb.
You know.
And so I always talk about how do you be really bold but have tremendous empathy a lot of times you're wrong and I'm wrong and that we are a constant work in progress.
So I think it's that it's like showing love all the time and caring for your people while at the same time holding a really high bar, because you love them, because you want them to do better, because you believe that customers expect much more from us and society wants to see Many companies that have triple bottom line fail.
So you got to prove to them that a triple bottom line company can not only survive, but thrive.
So what's at stake for Grab right now?
What's at stake?
A lot's at stake.
We have 13 million drivers and merchants registered on Grab.
Wow.
We are probably one of the largest enablers of jobs.
We need to hold ourselves to such a high bar.
We must, and help them along this journey, to really be embraced in an AI first in an AV hybrid world.
And the best way is to start early, invest in them now, even before AVs are here, and reflect those values in every decision we make every day.
Well, Anthony, this was great.
Thanks so much for doing it and taking the time on an early morning.
No worries, Bob.
For you, anytime.
When Anthony used the phrase triple bottom line, it struck me how much that concept has gone out of vogue in certain business circles.
The idea that a company needs to deliver positive results financially, socially and environmentally.
I'll be honest that I didn't expect a ride sharing app, even a regional super app, to be quite so focused on succeeding across these multiple goals.
But I think it's a great reminder, especially in 2025, of the responsibility that business leaders have and the opportunity The irony, as Anthony alludes to, is that what's good for society and your people, what's good for the planet and the environment, it's almost always good for your finances, too.
Maybe not in the very beginning, but in the long run.
And so if we want to build a business that stands the test of time, that positively impacts the future, why shouldn't triple bottom line be a consideration for everyone?
My humble thought for the day.
I'm Bob Safian.
Thanks for listening.
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Rapid Response is a Wait What original.
I'm Bob Safian.
Our executive producer is Eve Troh.
Our producer is Alex Morris.
Associate producer is Mashumaku Tonina.
Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli.
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For more, visit rapidresponseshow.com.
