The role played by Russia and the Soviet Union, China especially, are not very well known or deliberately distorted today by the Western politician or media.
Not many people know in the West that the Chinese people make the most sacrifice during the Second World War.
I mean we lost 30 million people.
It was a brutal Japanese aggression against China.
It's very good to see that how China cherishes this memory of the Soviet soldiers because there is a lot of revisionism and history rewriting in the world.
And in Europe we have seen for over a decade, for many years, this rewriting of history, whitewashing Nazism, intertwining this neoliberal EU ideology, anti -Sovietism.
Both Russia and China are leading the way by example.
And it's not about talking, it's about doing.
Not much talk, it's all about action, investment, infrastructure, trade.
Those actions speak much more than empty words.
The Chat Lounge, Chat Lounge, Chat Lounge.
The Chat Lounge unpacks views and opinions on hot issues in a more casual way.
Hello and welcome to chat lounge.
I am X Lauri Wen. Chinese president Xi Jinping has had a state visit to Russia.
The visit coincides with Russia's Victory Day celebrations on May 9th, marking the 80th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945, which brought an end to the Second World War in Europe.
This year marks the 80th anniversary of victory in the Chinese People's War of Resistance against the Japanese Aggression, signifying the complete triumph of the global fight in the World Anti -Fascist War.
How will President Xi's visit to Russia further deepen bilateral strategic ties?
Why are stable China -Russia relations crucial for regional and global stability?
And will the world draw lessons from 80 years ago to preserve peace?
Or are we heading toward a more turbulent future?
For these and more, I'm joined by Mr. Chen Weihua, EU bureau chief of China Daily, Eugene Pavlov, journalist with Sputnik in Beijing and Angelo Giuliano, a Swiss -Italian political analyst based in Hong Kong.
Welcome to the chat.
So, Mr. Chen, let me come to you first. Without President Xi Jinping's state visit to Russia comes at the time of frequent high -level interactions between the two leaders in recent years.
And this is President Xi's 11th visit to Russia since 2013, and the two leaders have met more than 40 times at different occasions in recent years.
So what do you make of the timing and the significance of this trip?
What signal does China hope to send to the world through this visit?
First of all, thank you very much, Yavon, for having me on this program.
I think your question actually answered very well.
You know, the number of visits she has paid to Russia and the number of times that two leaders have met over the years.
I mean, we all know that the leaders' meetings are very important and crucial for bilateral time.
And this is a very important time, the 80th anniversary, and what Russia called the Great Patriotic War.
I think China and Russia and then the Soviet Union obviously made the biggest sacrifice and we owe China and Russia the permanent five members of the UN Security Council.
We are important powers.
so we want to sustain the global order after the World War II.
But now it's a time in international order with the United Nations and, you know, international rule have been challenged.
If we look at a country like the US, you know, want to wage a cold war, I mean, even sort of a small country, especially in this world, being, you know, not respected.
And so, I think that there was the trade war, tariff war, all these sort of trying to divide the world into political blocs.
These are all challenges to the global orders that are being established since the World War II.
So, I think this is very important.
I mean, obviously China and Russia are two larger neighbors sharing a very long border.
I mean, so stable relationship means not just you know, a great deal for the two countries, I think, for the whole world.
And the rest of the world is looking at this.
Eugene, from Russia's perspective, so how are Russian media covering President Xi Jinping's state visit?
And based on your observation, what key points are highlighted in your reports?
So, as far as I noticed, the majority of major Russian news outlets, media companies, TV channels they have covered to some extent the President Xi's visit to Moscow.
I wouldn't say that there are many points that I emphasize.
The very fact that a Chinese leader is coming to Moscow is of course of great importance and symbolic importance.
it's been reiterated by many that it is also not just about the participation in the 9th of May parade on the Red Square, which is a very important deal, but also that some opinion pieces speculated on what the two leaders might discuss during this visit of presidencies to Moscow, because obviously there are many things to talk about both in bilateral relations and the current geopolitical situation in the Angelo, what's your take on Eugene and Mr. Chen's remarks and how do you think President Xi Jinping's state visit to Russia will further deepen the two countries' no -limits strategic partnership?
Well, I think it's a highly symbolic.
First of all, it is about celebrating the defeat over Nazism.
And I think especially when we are actually facing, I would say revisionists from the West, which are actually trying to portray the US as being the saviour, the one that actually defeated Nazi Germany.
I think it's important just for both Russia and China, just to go back to really what happened during the World War Two.
We are actually living this transition called the Thucydides Trap.
We have emerging power, you have declining power, and we have here, luckily, two countries, two leaders in the person of Xi Jinping and President Putin that are extremely pragmatic and they want to go towards the multipolar world which is a non -alignment, which is about so no ideology and live and not leave. Look for what you like does and set aside the differences and I think they are the embody the different, the new world towards where we going to, where Every single country will have its own voice, and the Western hegemony will be a dark side of human history.
Mr. Chen, China and Russia's partnership now covers many areas.
For instance, in trade and economic ties, their bilateral trade reached a record high of nearly $250 billion last year, marking an increase of 2%.
In the meantime China has been Russia's largest trading partner for 13 consecutive years and Russia remains the major energy supplier to China.
More than 95 % of their trade is now settled in local currencies.
So how do you assess the two countries economic cooperation after you know hearing those numbers and what new areas of growth are likely to emerge?
Well it's amazing I mean, the numbers, because I always remember years ago, the leaders talk about how to boost bilateral trade to like $20 billion.
I mean 2002, it's only like $12 billion.
I mean, the numbers that you just said, it's approaching $250 billion.
It's a growth, has it grown by leaps of bounds, obviously.
I mean, China and Russia, I mean, they are two large countries, have greater potential.
I think it's not fully tapped, I still believe.
China, obviously, is not China, 30 years ago.
I mean actually, if you look at 1990, I mean, Russian economy was actually bigger than China's.
So China grew enormously, I mean not just in size.
China has also grown technologically, become a major technology powerhouse.
So, I think Russia obviously is still a technology powerhouse too.
I mean, if you look at the space, Russia obviously is the largest country on the planet.
And so, I think there is so much complementary.
From my perspective, Chinese investors are really looking at opportunities in Russia, in every sectors, you know, given Russia has a unique kind of attitude that many other countries don't really have. I mean, if you look at even the far east, Russia far east, I mean, it's a huge area to be explored, I mean, for bilateral cooperation, I mean, in manufacturing, I mean, the supply chain.
I mean, China is the biggest manufacturing powerhouse in the world.
Russia could be integrated into this supply chain.
I mean, there is so much to do.
I mean, obviously, I mean, what we're seeing is the phenomenal progress of a Russian natural gas pipeline, you know, supply, energy supply to China.
I mean, that's very important to China.
I mean, so all these are very complimentary.
I look at it as space exploration.
I mean, we heard many news every few weeks about China's progress in this regard. I mean, so I think China obviously can learn still a lot from Russia in that regard. So, overall, I'm quite optimistic.
I'm very pleased about the progress in the last decades, and I think we can have greater potential in the years, decades ahead.
The chat lounge. The chat lounge unpacks views and opinions on hot issues in a more casual way.
Eugene, so, Mr. Chen, he just talked about the economic prospect of the two countries bilateral relations.
If we look at the cultural exchanges and people -friendly measures, we could see that the two countries have placed a growing emphasis on this sector.
For instance, they have held each other's national years to promote cultural understanding through tourism, media exchanges, and they have also actively supported youth exchanges programs to ensure that future generations can better understand each other's values.
So, could you share with us some examples in those fields and how these initiatives and efforts bring people of the two countries closer?
Thank you for the question, I think that both governments understand very well that good relations between the two countries, the key to that is good people to people relations.
And there's been a lot of emphasis on cultural and humanitarian exchanges, educational.
The thing here is that, in my opinion, it's, it is like long term investment.
So sometimes the the fruits, you'll see the fruits of that in main maybe even the generation.
On one hand, we've seen that the ties between the two countries, the relationships between the two people are definitely improving.
China has become much more recognizable in Russia.
Being a foreign journalist in China, I see that a lot of people know many things about Russia, and when they hear where I come from, the reactions are usually very positive.
So I think there has been a lot of progress on that part.
and we have a very long history and for the most part of this history our relationships have been very good.
As far as the examples, so I think that very small things can make a huge difference and one of these examples of these cultural ties that I can think of now is that a couple of years ago in Moscow I attended a concert and then I interviewed this young Chinese lady who participated in that concert.
And then she told me a story as I interviewed her, and she told me that she had no connection with Russia whatsoever, and she studied classical music back in China, but her teacher, she once studied back in the Soviet Union in Moscow.
And so she told this young student of hers that, you know, in your class of instrument, Russia is the best place to go.
They have a great tradition, great school, so you have to go there.
And she had absolutely no idea what Russia is like.
So at some point she applied, she went back to Moscow.
So when I met her, she already spoke very good Russian.
She studied at Moscow Conservatory, the famous musical school.
She taught there also, so she had some students.
So this is the way how that lady that studied studied in the Soviet Union many decades ago influenced this particular person.
She came to as a result of that and obviously she did make a huge impact herself I'm pretty sure about that because the students will remember her the people she works with will remember her and so I think that these very human things this tiny details they can make a huge difference just as with this cinema festivals you never know maybe you have a Chinese boy or a Russian boy or a girl who watched a movie made in this other country and this makes a huge impression on them and maybe in 20 -30 years they become a film director and this person will improve this slice immensely, so you never know.
So it's a long -term investment and huge opportunities in here.
Yeah speaking of that.
Actually Mr. Chen, like for me, I know some senior people, they either had studied in Russia or spoke Russian, the language and also like growing up in our generation we read literature like books that's written by russian writer like is that something that how the our two countries history in the form of music, art, literature carry forward right what's your like self -doubt?
that. I mean, obviously it's very interesting you mentioned that actually people my age, you know, when I was in junior high school, you know, actually there was a class, I mean our sister class all studying Russians, that's why learn a little bit, actually one of my friend there later went to Moscow to study mathematics, I think for like 15 years.
He is now back at East China Normal University in Shanghai, as a professor.
A very good one. We all know from studying science in school, there were so many Russian scientists, I mean, if you study chemistry.
So I think people obviously respect great deal of Russian, you talk about the ballet, you talk about the music, art, you know, science.
So I think this is a trans border, which had a huge impact on human progress.
so we should be thankful for those Russian civilization, you know, Chinese civilization, any of them, Indian civilization, European civilization, we should respect each other.
You know what I want to mention very importantly, I think that China, since I'm here in Europe, I think China could play a very important role actually in bridging.
I mean today it's a very complicated geopolitics, helping bridging the gap between Russia and Europe, which I think they should become good neighbors.
I mean, like China and Russia, I think a good neighbor is essential.
I mean, it's very important to everyone, not just China, Russia.
Angelo, so the key principle, if we look at China Russia bilateral ties, the key principle the two country is mutually beneficial, non -alliance, non -confrontation and does not target any third party.
So how do you view the trend of this everlasting friendship between China and Russia?
And also what positive effect does it have in terms of major power relations around the world?
Well, it is just the fact that it's a completely new -different approach. It is about the carrot strategy as opposed to the stick strategy.
When you look at how Trump is treating even its allies it is about the stick it's about threatening.
Now here what Russia and China are doing it's a strategy of engagement let's see what we can do together what are common points where can we grow together when you do that you actually build up and this engagement and you have more leverage and you actually avoid confrontation because you start to have mutual benefits, mutual interests, and a better future this way.
When you look at the complementary, it's very pragmatic too.
Let's not forget that Russia needs as much as China needs Russia.
They have a future that is tied together.
At the same time, you see there's a growth of trade, there's a growth of cultural exchanges and they are putting together this actual strategy through BRICS, the strategy of multiple world.
The world has changed.
You have major countries that need to have a say in this equation.
I�m talking about Brazil.
I�m talking about India and the whole global south.
What is inspiring here is that both Russia and China are leading the way by example.
It�s not about talking, it�s about doing.
It�s not much talk.
It�s all about action, investment, infrastructure, trade, those actions speak much more than empty words of when you look at from the West, talking about alliances.
It is not going to be like this with China and Russia.
Those are extremely, we are talking about the next decades, the next centuries.
They are shaping the future of this multipolar world.
Mr. Chen, I want to come to you to discuss 80 years after World War II.
We know this This year marks the 80s anniversary of the victory in a Chinese people's war of resistance against the Japanese aggression.
And during the Second World War, China fought against the Japan for 14 years.
That was from 1931 to 1945.
And by doing so, it prevented Japan from coordinating, avoiding a two front war for the Soviet Union.
So, could you elaborate on how significant is China's role in the Eastern Front of the Second World War?
Why is that so important?
Why is China's fighting against the Japanese aggression so important to the overall victory of the World Anti -Fascist War?
Definitely. I mean, we all know that the Nazi Germany imperialists, Japan was threatening the world I mean in those years and so it's especially important to mark this 80th anniversary because you know we're seeing the Western world trying to rewrite history.
I'm here in Europe again so I remember when they marked the anniversary of the Auschwitz, I mean Poland, they didn't invite Russia to attend.
There was obviously the Soviet Red Army liberated the Auschwitz.
It's not the United States or British.
So I think we should respect the history.
At the same time, I think, you are right.
I mean, the role played by Russia, or then the Soviet Union, or China especially, are not very well known or deliberately distorted today by the Western politician or media.
Not many people know in the West that Chinese people actually make the most sacrifice during the Second World War.
I mean we lost 30 million people, so it was a brutal Japanese aggression against China.
I mean, just look at the Nanjing Massacre, that's the darkest episode in human history, would say.
Because of the Chinese people's resistance, the Japanese Imperial Army could not become a much more threat.
They are aligning obviously with Nazi Germany to threaten the Soviet Union in those years or other countries.
We always mock the Flying Tigers, You know, the American army is helping China.
But we should also remember, actually, the Soviet Union at the very beginning also provided military aid, the army, all those systems to fight against the Japanese.
So obviously, I think the Chinese, I mean, it's a huge country.
The Japanese army also suffered.
you know, the ultimate defeat obviously is surrendered.
And it's the joint effort, I mean, mostly by the Chinese people's brave resistance, war against the fascists in those years was joined by the Soviet Union, the US, you know, just remember, we were allies against the Germany and the Japanese imperial fascist. So that's a really important moment to remind the world that that's history and should not be rewritten.
Very well said. We have to be cautious about, you know, there is the rising trend of whitewash using without China and Russia back then it was Soviet Union at the time where the main battlefields in Asia and Europe during a Second World War The people of both countries were the backbone forces in the fight against fascism and militarism, as Mr. Chen just mentioned, and making tremendous sacrifices and historic contributions to securing victory.
How do you assess the Soviet Union's critical role in the anti -fascist war?
And how did the Soviet Union support for China back then, during the war time, help build this strong friendship that still shapes our two countries bilateral relations today?
Thank you for the question.
So first, on the first part of your question, obviously, the Soviet Union carried the brunt of the fighting in Europe.
Europe, and you know, it's quite preposterous when Donald Trump is saying something like, America was like this basically the only country that had the victory for everybody.
Obviously, it's not true.
What the Soviet Union faced was essentially a united Europe effort at that moment, because it was not just the Nazi Germany, it was the industries of basically the whole continent.
It was many, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of recruits from different countries, so again, apart from Germany, Hungary, Romania, Finland was an ally, Bulgaria even, was once liberated by the Russians from the Ottoman Empire but they took the side of Nazis in that part.
Obviously, Italy, Spain sent a lot of volunteers, so it was a huge conflict involving many European countries, not just Germany versus the Soviet Union.
The Germans and their allies in Europe suffered about 80 % of their total casualties on the Eastern Front fighting the Soviet Union.
That is about the contribution.
Of course, the Soviet Union made a huge sacrifice in terms of manpower and national wealth loss.
The current numbers stand about 25 -28 million people that were lost in that conflict.
practically every person in Russia today and in many other post -Soviet countries, they have somebody in their family who were a casualty in that conflict, and also as far as the second part of your question is concerned, obviously the Soviet Union had its own conflicts with Japan in the 1930s.
The fact that China was resisting Japan so boldly, helped at some point in 1941 to the Soviet Union to send some reinforcements from the Russian Far East to the aid of Moscow, which was of course a very decisive moment.
And the Soviet troops provided a lot of support to China in the 1930s before the war started in the Soviet Union.
So Mr. Chen here, he mentioned the Soviet contribution and the Tigers, the American pilots, but they were also the Soviet pilots who fought in 1937 to 1940 and they were the key.
The Americans back then didn't provide any major support to China and it was mostly the Soviet pilots who denied the Japanese advantage in disguise.
The biggest battle was the Battle of Wuhan.
They actually started fighting the Japanese in the Battle of Nanking and even in 1938, there was this daring mission when the Soviet pilots were bombed and the Japanese occupied Taiwan, which was just a crazy mission.
It was almost impossible to get there but still somehow managed to do that.
The battles of Wuhan, the battle of Chunxing, it was overall about 2 ,000 Soviet personnel that participated in that.
I just yesterday attended a memorial service where the ambassadors of the former Soviet republics and the local Chinese government paid tribute to the fallen soldiers of the soviet and mongol military who fought for liberation of Janday at Jantakou and it's very good to see how China cherishes this memory of the soviet soldiers because as Mr. Chen started there is a lot of revisionism and history rewriting in the world and in Europe we've seen for over a decade for many many years this rewriting in history whitewashing Nazism, intertwining this neo -liberal you know EU ideology anti -sovietism so the Nazis were actually
the good guys you know the people who collaborated with Nazis they were fighting for freedom against the the Soviet occupation and all that and we see the monuments to these Soviet soldiers in countries like the Baltic states in Poland in Czech Republic they're being demolished and now you see a village and there is a monument with names of people from that very same village that fought in their right arm against the Nazis and their offspring they destroyed this monument so it's really quite remarkable and difficult to comprehend but uh thank you for the people of China for preserving this memory
um we're very grateful for that.
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Welcome back, this is chatlunch, let's continue our discussion.
I am Mr. Chen, speaking of European countries, we know they played an active role in rebuilding the post -war international order, such as through key conferences like Yalta and Potsdam.
They were held in Europe and laid the foundation for the United Nations and the post -war global system.
So also we know this year marks the 80th anniversary of the UN's funding.
Then how do you see the challenges and growing dysfunction that the organization is facing And how can we help to address those challenges to keep multilateralism alive and working in today's world?
The global order with the UN as the core at the center, I think obviously will be a challenge.
If we look at just the trade war, tariff war waged by the US, and it's also because the World Trade Organization is rendered dysfunctional, ago, simply because the U .S., since the first Trump administration has refused to appoint a new judge to the appalachian body.
And the Biden administration obviously didn't reverse that trend.
And so the WTO is dysfunctional, even you can still, obviously China has.
I mean, even Europeans have also filed the Canadian they have filed the cases.
but it's not going to be binding I mean without this jury.
so that's just the one very example of today's world.
Obviously we have this United States which always claims to be the leader of the world which is creating one international, you know UN organization, WHO, you know UNESCO, after the other.
So it's just dismantling the global system and the organizations and pulling out the fund.
You know, I was in Geneva actually just two months ago, I believe, for the UN Human Rights Council because of the pulling out of the U .S. funding.
They couldn't even give me a proper press card. They just printed under A4 sheet paper.
They say because we have to cut budget, because of the U .S. withdrawing the money.
So that's just one very life -like case in today's world.
It's also important because it's the...
also the year marking the 50th anniversary of China -EU relation.
So I think the EU should, I mean, the EU still is not with the US, given that the EU's foreign policy has long been dictated by the US, but the EU is not with the US on this dismantling the international organization.
I think the EU is also for multilateralism.
So I think we should all join the forces in this very difficult time in human history.
Because it's really a turning point.
Without this international floor -based system with the UN at the center, we are going to enter a very dangerous world for the decades to come.
So, Yujing, how can closer coordination between China and Russia through platforms of the United nations, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, and also the BRICS contribute to promoting a multipolar world and inclusive economic growth both regionally and globally?
Thank you for the question.
So, I totally agree with what Mr. Chen said about this, and I think that both Russia and China are interested in maintaining the UN -based order, which has been reiterated multiple times by both Russian and the Chinese speakers.
Why is that? Because the United Nations, in theory, are exactly meant to reflect that multilateralism and multipolarity if implemented properly.
However, it is very hard to maintain such a structure when you have a key actor like the United States, for example, showing lack of interest in continuing to participate in such an organization.
So, I think that what Russia and China do, they really want to have UN still running to have its role.
This participation in other organizations that you mentioned, BRICS, SEO, it is complementary, it's not meant to subvert the United Nations, but these are also markers of the emerging multi -polarity, where you have multiple different formats where countries free of some centralized agenda can discuss regional issues, the global development issues.
So I think that the very existence of such a new format already shows both the efforts and the changing reality of the international system.
Angelo, so Chinese President Xi Jinping proposed this global security initiative three years ago, advocating for the collaborative approach to security rather than the zero -sum game where one nation's security comes at the cost of another.
So how do you understand this initiative and in what ways might they complement or strengthen existing international efforts to uphold UN -centered multipolar world order?
As Eugene just said before, the problem is that the West, I wouldn't call it the collective West because you have the US and you have a lot of vassal states in the EU and I would say Japan, Australia and South Korea are all also following the US agenda.
Why is it so? Why do we have those structures?
It's very simple. First of all I would say that there's a de -credibilization of those international agencies because of the US.
Why they've been using them and also their veto power.
The veto power has been extremely abusive.
When you look at all the decisions of the majority of U .N. countries against the genocide in Israel, well, it's a decriminalization.
When you are talking about international order and you actually breach everything whenever it doesn't go into the direction you want it to go.
There's a decribilisation and this is in the aspect of those international organizations.
I'm talking about the IMF, the World Bank, the World Health Organization because those institutions are completely controlled by a few and they are extremely undemocratic.
Now, why we have BRICs, why we have those parallel institutions is because a lot of countries are not being treated fairly by those international institutions including And so I would say, as Eugene said, it is not about replacing, it is about when you don't find a solution through the UN.
You need to find other bodies alternative to start a new rules.
Mr. Chen, so as we have noticed in these growing challenges to multilateralism how is China demonstrating its commitment through frameworks like the five principles of peaceful coexistence and the Global Security Initiative?
Could you share with us some examples as well?
Yeah, I think, you know, it's very important that you mentioned this, you know, five principles, which actually was first put forward in the 1950s.
It was like as, you know, ten years, more than ten years before I was born.
So, but it was, I think, it's very relevant, you know, even today, especially, I would say, I mean, when you also mentioned this global security initiative?
I think because China firmly believes, I mean, I think that these principles have been now widely recognized, respected by the international community, I mean, especially in the global south, because China believes that a country as large as small shouldn't be equal.
I think China never attached, China, for example, had the famous Belt Road Initiative.
China never imposed conditions that would infringe on others' sovereignty.
China's foreign policy is based on these five principles.
China is well known for noninterference in others' domestic affairs.
We are not again it�s like G7 or it�s like getting up against this mindset of zero -sum game.
China firmly believes this win -win mindset.
If you look at the trade world and health world, it�s a zero -sum game.
It�s a lose -lose game.
No one wins. Everyone is going to be worse off period.
And so China believe it even if you win bigger than I, it's still good.
I mean, it's okay. But, it's a win -win game.
Last I want to just briefly mention because China always believe, I mean, countries with differences, for example, China and the Europeans.
I just want to mention, because this is the 50th anniversary of China EU relation.
I mean, we're not identical with Russia.
I mean, we have agreements on many issues, but we're not agreeing 100 percent on everything, not with our neighbor country.
But the truth is that China believes, given these differences, we should be able to cooperate and pursue win -win cooperation.
And when it comes to differences, we should try to resolve them in a peaceful manner, through negotiation and diplomacy.
I think that's a great example that you know for international relations.
The chat lounge. The chat lounge unpacks views and opinions on hot issues in a more casual way.
So, Eugene in light of this 80th anniversary of the victory in the anti -fascist war, However, how can China and Russia work together to defend the legacy and oppose efforts to, as other guests mentioned, whitewash fascism and militarism, and also promote this multilateralism and global security.
Well, honestly, there is very little you can do.
So, what Angelo mentioned before, he said pragmatic a couple of times, characterizing Russia, China, and some other countries.
So here we have like this debate going on between realism and values driven approach going on, and realism is becoming very popular now, even in the West, among many people who are somewhat skeptical about what's going on in the world.
I do believe that realism and pragmatism is a much better foundation for multi -lateral, peaceful win -win cooperation globally in the world in a more democratic fashion at the same time where you understand that certain things might be dangerous, so you try to understand your partner, you try to be in their shoes, what they might do, how they might react to this or that action.
So, this is definitely a much better framework to work with, but on the other hand, there There is one major weakness with realism based approach. It ignores a lot of things that are irrational, the human factor, and that in fact you for example may have made a very good economic relationship with a country over the region and you believe they have so much to lose if they break this relationship, if they sacrifice these economic ties that we have built for example, but they will still do that.
If there is an irrational motivation, they will do that.
Even if it doesn't benefit them, if it is going to hurt them a lot, they will still do that, and there is a lot of room for manipulation over there.
One of the things we are talking today, and something that Angela mentioned before and probably Dr. Chen also, is that there is so much relationship between this history of Nazism and Europe for example and modern day European Union maybe, so how is it intertwined?
I think the explanation is very simple.
That behind every major Western European -based ideology, framework of thinking, international order, there is one very simple idea and that is the idea of superiority.
It is actually a thing for every culture and every civilization on the planet in every part of history.
But here, it's been perfected really.
and so between behind the Nazism or behind the liberalism, there is the same idea that we are the best. It might be based on your, I don't know, on how you look.
Or it may be based on what values we have, but it is very difficult to convince people that they should not consider themselves superior, so that they should not maybe revisit their history and return to greatness.
So how do you do that?
There is very little you can do when people are going to shoot themselves in the foot.
But what you can do, I think, is that and returning back to President Xi's visit to Moscow is you can hold to your own.
You can maintain understanding, you can oppose rewriting history, at least within your own country.
And why so many people have been paying attention to what leaders are coming to Moscow for May 9th is that these are the leaders that show to the world that they have a somewhat independent stance.
Angelo, what lessons can the international community learn from the experience of the Second World War to better safeguard today's peace and stability?
Well, it is hard to say especially when you have the white washing, you have the rewriting of history.
And also, keep in mind that most people in the West sadly, when you talk about with average Joe, he will tell you whatever he would tell you is actually learned not from history books but from Netflix and Hollywood and as Eugene just mentioned before, there's an emotional factor there.
People are extremely manipulated through emotions and that's Hollywood news media do over 24 hours a day.
This is why when you look at the policies of both Russia and China, they have been relaxing the visa procedure just to visit their countries.
By doing so, you can imagine someone who has been brainwashed his whole life by Hollywood, all those billions of dollars spent by the U .S. State Department into demonizing China.
With those people, everything they know about China is all grim.
It's all negative. With 24 hours for those people, the first 24 hours going to Shanghai, for example, they would land into Pudong airport, extremely modern airport.
They would take the train, the fast train, the fastest they've ever seen.
They would arrive in Pudong and they would see a city bustling, extremely modern, people being happy.
Then they spent the evening in a busy street and just realizing that how similar we are.
The same I would say for Russia.
There are a few people, Youtubers and personalities like Tucker Carlson.
He went to Russia to Moscow and he went to a grocery store.
He started comparing the prices and he started realizing, the metro here in Moscow is extremely clean, very modern people are nice to me and so and then and this is a wow moment it's a wow moment.
This is why somehow you have some elites in the west they want to actually build those walls because those are inconvenient truth.
You see when you go to both Moscow and Beijing and Shanghai, you won't see extreme poverty people living in the street you won't see that it's extremely marginal.
It would just realize well maybe we have a problem and I would say fight ignorance, because the stage we have reached and this is on purpose.
I'm not blaming average show in the West. This is this intense propaganda, but I would say most of people in the West are the first stage, the lowest level of awareness which is they don't know that they don't know.
And I would say the first stage of wisdom is that when you realize you know that you don't know, and then And you start actually being curious and you start being humble.
And I'm coming from my personal experience.
I actually really thought, 30 years ago, when I came to China, I really thought that in the West we had a better society.
And slowly 30 years later, coming from my own experience, I feel extremely humble right now.
So lastly, Mr. Chen, so looking ahead, how do you see China's role evolving in shaping the future of global peace, stability, and cooperation in the years to come?
Well I would say I agree with what Angelo said, I mean, completely.
I think the western propaganda against China, I mean against Russia too, I mean it's just totally absurd. But it's very successfully brainwashed.
A lot of their citizens, I mean that's, said, hopefully more people in Europe and America with go to China and see for themselves.
I am not saying China is a paradise.
There is nothing to improve.
I mean, China has been evolving story, has been learning, improving over the past decade, that everybody witnessed China and knows that very well.
They tried to portray China as a sort of a try to topple the international system.
But obviously, with what the U .S. has been doing for just these past 100 days, people know who is actually trying to undermine the global system.
It's not China. And China, like most say, countries in the global south, obviously want to improve the global system, you know, because they are not very well reflected, as others mentioned.
and for example, the World Bank, the IMF, you know, China, India, the developing country obviously should play a bigger role.
The BRICS, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, others, you know, the G20, you know, could play a much better role, you know, in complementing the global system.
The U .S. Administration especially even with just looking the last few years, you know, the Biden administration.
They tried to lead the world into a new Cold War, dividing the world, and they've been making provocations even against China multiple fronts.
Taiwan question in South China Sea, China's East Asia.
So I think they obviously try to lead the world into a new Cold War, if not, another major war was, a nuclear war even.
will be a disaster for the whole world.
Europe suffered the most from the last Cold War if you ask the Germans.
I mean, this country being divided into two.
So I don't think Europeans want to go back to another Cold War, new Cold War.
So we should join forces to resist this new Cold War effort and you know, sustain the global system.
With that, we are wrapping up this episode of ChatLunch. I've been speaking with Mr. Chen Weihua, EU Bureau Chief of China Daily.
Eugene Pavlov, reporter with Spooknet News in Beijing.
And Angelo Giuliano, a Swiss Italian political analyst based in Hong Kong.
Thank you so much for listening, bye for now.
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