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part series. We did this one with Kenji.
We did this couple Scott Wiener episodes.
We did the Grimaldi's that we released recently.
Anyway, here's to more pizza content in the next year.
That's what I'm saying.
Remember, if there's an episode of The Sporkful you want us to pull out of the deep freezer, let us know.
Send me a voice memo or email to hello at sporkful .com.
Tell me your first name, location, what episode you want us to reheat and why.
Thanks so much and enjoy.
This is The Sporkful.
It's not for foodies, it's for eaters.
I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people.
Joining me today to ride shotgun for this episode is our old friend, Kenji Lopez -Alt.
He's the food science guru at Sirius Eats and author of The Food Lab, Better Home Cooking Through Science.
Hey, Kenji. Hey, how's it going?
It's going well. Now, later on, Kenji, you're going to be in the hot seat for the lightning round.
You're going to get three food science questions, some from me, some from listeners.
So get ready for that.
Get your seat warmed up for that, my friend.
I'll work on warming the seat.
All right, but first, we're going to take a call.
How is this? Hi, this is Ali.
I'm calling from Boston, and I have a question about what makes a slice a slice.
You're talking about a slice of pizza?
Yes, a slice of pizza.
Okay. And not in terms of toppings or the preparation of the pizza, but the geometry of the slice itself.
Okay. I have a feeling this is going to get very detailed and very nerdy.
My family and I generally have a debate about four aspects of a slice of pizza.
Number one is, do you have to cut them all equally?
Number two is, what fraction is too large to be considered a slice?
And what fraction is too small to be considered a slice?
And then finally, once a pizza's already been cut, can you then make additional cuts to the slice?
Ali, could I ask you a question?
So I think to start answering this question, we need to I think we need to refer back to you growing up and specifically to, you know, Sam Sifton's pizza cognition theory, because I want to understand what pizza means to you.
So if you're not familiar with the pizza cognition theory, it's Sam Sifton, editor of the New York Times food section.
Yes. And a friend of the show.
Exactly. Yeah. The the pizza cognition theory states that for any person, the first food that they eat called pizza then becomes pizza.
And I'm paraphrasing is probably not.
He said it much more eloquently, but the first thing that you recognize as pizza as a kid becomes forever in your brain pizza.
So I want to find out, A, if that's true for you, and B, what is pizza to you?
Where did you grow up and what is pizza to you?
Well, I actually grew up in Saudi Arabia, and the first pizza I had was a Domino's pizza.
I've had better pizzas since, but that's still in my brain labeled as what a pizza looks like, kind of.
What is that pizza experience?
What role does that play in the different opinions of your family today?
Well, some of us still hearken back to those days.
My brother and my father both agree that a pizza slice should fit in your hand.
And I disagree with that.
You disagree with that?
Yes. I think a slice is any portion of a pizza that's less than half.
Less than half. So you could have a half pizza minus a tiny, tiny sliver and you would still They'll call it a slice.
I mean, I would, but I also think pizzas should be cut in equal parts, so it would be a third of a pizza.
Okay, so there always needs to be some kind of radial symmetry when you're slicing.
To me, yes. Okay. But just in terms of terminology, 49 % of a pizza is a slice to you.
Yes. That's a unique perspective.
It has the angle. It looks like a slice.
You take a picture of it, it looks like a gigantic slice, but it looks like a slice.
It looks like a semicircle, right?
I mean, technically it has a point, Kenji.
If it's 49 percent, if it's a 179 -degree angle.
I mean, yeah, for me, I would say it has to be an acute angle.
Like I think a quarter of a pizza is just on the edge of not becoming a slice.
Anything more than a quarter is no longer a slice.
So it needs to be an 89 -degree angle.
89 .99999, yeah. That's what it would be for me.
Ali, what do you think of that?
A lot of people in my family agree with you.
I don't know. I went to college in Boston.
A lot of places have those mega slices, which are just a third of a pizza.
Right, right, right.
And that looks like a slice to me now.
If you fold it in half and eat it, it just feels like a slice again.
Well, let's go the opposite way.
Have you had pizza down at Frank Pepe's in New Haven?
Yes. And you know how they—so when they cut their pizzas, they, I think somewhat intentionally, miss the center of the pizza when they do their strokes across with the wheel.
So you have things that sort—nothing is actually a perfect triangle.
Everything has either, like, the tip cut off or, like, a little section on the side cut out.
And then you also end up with all these random sort of geometric shapes in the center that I consider to be sort of like the treats at the—like, everyone's had their slice.
And then you have these random assortment of shapes that people in their family, the ones who have the bigger appetites, can then reach in there and grab those.
is would you consider those random geometric shapes in the center to still be a slice of pizza?
I'm a very big fan of random geometrical shapes, but when they happen by accident, it's strange.
I feel like when you intentionally do that, you're manipulating what the pizza is.
But when you are just sectioning a pizza with the hopes of getting nice, even sections, and you end up getting odd geometrical shapes or larger slices or whatever, I'm a fan of those.
So you think the intent of the pizza slicer matters when it comes to the definition of a slice.
Just so I understand, you're saying that you're okay with random shapes if they're intentional or if they're unintentional?
If they're unintentional.
What's wrong with them being intentional?
I don't know. It doesn't feel right.
It feels like you're manipulating the randomness of it.
It's either random or it's not.
You can't manipulate randomness, can you?
Well, it's your intention.
I'm a scientist, and yeah, you can—that's what we do.
We manipulate—we basically create randomness.
So you're saying that you manipulate randomness for a living, yet you object to pizza cutters who would manipulate randomness?
Exactly. I do it so much in my regular day, I can't have someone else do it for me now.
In what way do you manipulate randomness in your work?
We have to create sample sizes that are a random sample of the population.
So you have to very specifically get 50 % female, 50 % male.
You have to try to get as much diversity in there as possible.
When an actual random sample ends up looking like 80 % white males, then you can't have that.
Ali, what kind of research do you do?
I do neuroscience. We work with Alzheimer's and Parkinson's patients.
And what do you think it says about you that you have such a strong objection to people in pizzerias who would do the exact same thing that you do in your own work?
I don't know. I feel like science by necessity has to be a very controlled environment while everyone else gets to be artists.
And I want to enjoy pizza as an art rather than a science.
Well, but you're specifically saying that they don't get to be artists because they are required to cut the pizza in a certain way that they're not allowed to experiment with the way that they cut their pizza.
I mean, you make sense.
coming up we'll attempt to reach agreement on all these questions about pizza slices plus we'll put kenji in the hot seat and make him answer food science questions from me and you we'll learn why spreading half your cream cheese on each side of your bagel creates a different eating experience from spreading all the cream cheese on just one side Kenji will get into the science and the explanation will involve discussion of woodworking.
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Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat.
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Thank you so much. Now back to the task at hand.
Food science guru Kenji Lopez -Alt is here with me today.
And we have Ali on the line from Boston.
Ali, I want to kind of narrow our focus here a little bit.
I feel like you presented us with four questions, and I feel like they actually fall into two separate categories.
There's the first category, which is what's a slice?
What's the largest fraction of a pizza that a slice can be?
What's the smallest fraction?
So that's the first category.
Your second is more one of etiquette or technique.
These other questions, should all slices of the pie be equal or not?
And once you've made a slice, can you slice it again to make it smaller?
Those two I put in a separate category.
So let's do the second one that I mentioned first. Should all pizza slices be cut to represent an equal fraction of the pizza?
I don't know why that's better.
I don't understand.
Convince me that there's any merit to that.
It just looks more appealing when you see someone who tried their best to get this very nice geometrical shape rather than the just random thin slice, thick slice, thin slice, thick slice.
So it's just that you find it more visually appealing.
There's no, like, deliciousness factor.
No, I don't think it affects the deliciousness.
I mean, I would I would also point out that, you know, in in New York, which is where the slice of pizza comes from, I think at least definitely the most popular, the slice, you know, the pizza slice as a concept.
You need to divide it evenly because you're charging everyone the same.
People are buying it by the slice.
In that case, yes. Yeah, in that, right.
If you're selling by the slice, I think you're right.
You need to be careful to make slices equal.
Next question, once you've sliced the slices, can you slice them again?
Now, do you have kids, Ali?
No, I don't. Okay, I could tell because someone with kids wouldn't ask this question.
Are there any little children in your family running around when you're arguing about this one?
Well, there were. or they've grown up since, but yeah.
Okay. Because to me, it's like, you know, little kids need smaller slices and like it just has to be done sometimes.
And sometimes you want half a slice and that's okay too.
I don't know, Kenji, do you disagree?
So I typically don't slice slices again.
But what I usually do is people will get the number of slices they want and then you make up for the difference in appetite by trading crusts around.
Like my wife will give me her crust sometimes or will give me the last few bites of her pizza.
The only time I ever really go for slicing a slice is when you have seven people at the table and there are eight slices and nobody wants to be the person who takes two and then maybe you'll be like, all right, I'm going to take half of this and then you know, you do the sort of Zeno's paradox where you divide it smaller and smaller until someone finally finishes it.
Right. Could I ask you a hypothetical sort of moral quandary that you might come up against in your pizza world?
Yeah, sure. Let's say that the pizza artist decided, so you and your family of four, you order one large pizza.
Let's say that the pizza artist then decides that the number of slices he wants to cut his pizza into is two.
And he draws one diameter across the pizza, dividing it into two slices, which by your definition are slices, 180 -degree slices.
They deliver that pizza to your house.
Now there's four of you who want slices of pizza, but there's only two slices.
Are you then allowed to cut those two slices into smaller slices?
And would you consider each of those new slices to be a new slice, even though the intent of the pizza cutter in the first place was to only have two slices?
Good questions. I think I'd order a second pizza.
All right, final two questions.
Let's make sure we resolve this.
The largest fraction of a pizza that can be considered a slice.
You're saying? I'm going to go with anything that can reasonably be held in one hand and walked down the street while eating.
So if it's a very, very small pizza, maybe you can get away with 179 degrees.
But in most cases, I'd say no more than a quarter.
Okay, and Ali says anything less than a half Or a 179 degree angle I gotta say, I feel like If you have a pizza cutter One of those round deals Pizza wheel And you've got a whole pie in front of you And you make two crust to crust lines Anywhere You've just made slices If you have a whole steak, any piece you cut off Like you're slicing it The verb we use is we sliced it You know, it could be a two -inch wide strip right out of the center of the pizza from top to bottom.
And that's a slice.
That's a slice of a pizza.
You used a slicer. You sliced it.
Technically, I guess.
But does it have the image of a slice?
Like when you close your eyes and you think of a slice of pizza, does it look like that?
Does a half a pizza look like that?
179 degrees of pizza kind of looks like that.
look i i guess in common usage you're right it doesn't look like that i think technically it's a slice but if you want to say in common usage i'd say i'm with kenji it's got to have a point it's got to have a real point an acute point like less than nine i'd say like 90 degrees or less point a slice needs to encompass some amount of crust and the center of the pizza and i think that the uh the angle of the cut needs to be acute that would be my definition I shouldn't.
All right. Well, Ali in Boston, enjoy your next pizza.
All right, thank you very much. You guys too.
All right, Kenji, it is time now for the hot seat.
This is where I'm going to ask you three questions, some from me, some from listeners, and I'm going to put three minutes on the clock, and you have got to answer Answer these three questions in three minutes or however long it takes.
Are you ready? I'm ready.
Okay. Yeah, I'm going to go for the three.
Okay. First question, Kenji.
When I'm spreading cream cheese on a bagel, you know, you could spread your cream cheese, half of it on one side and half on the other side and then put it together.
Or you could put all the cream cheese on one side and then put it together.
Right. Yeah. If it's the same amount of cream cheese in either case, it's just a question of whether you do all on one side or half and half.
Yeah. To me, in theory, there should be no difference once you press the two bagel halves.
together. But I find that there is.
I find that the half that did not get cream cheesed doesn't fuse well and can slip and slide.
And I don't understand why.
You know, I've been getting into woodworking recently, doing a lot of remodeling on the house and building little projects and some big projects.
And this is sort of a classic woodworkers issue as well.
If you read any books on beginning woodworking, you'll know that when When you're making a joint with glue, you want to apply a layer to both sides of the wood so that the glue has a chance to sort of seep into the pores on both pieces of wood.
If you apply it just to one single piece and then press the other one down, it'll seep unevenly.
It'll seep much more into the piece that you applied it to and much less into the one that you're pressing down on it, and you form a very poor bond.
I think it's very similar to how a bagel works, that when you're spreading cream cheese with a knife across a bagel surface, you're actually pushing it into some of those little holes in the bagel crumb.
So you're forming a much tighter bond between bagel and cream cheese than you do just by pressing it down as a sandwich because you're not getting any of that sort of lateral smearing motion that you get with a knife.
The way you described it, I take it you eat your bagel as a sandwich. Yes, bagel, cream cheese, sandwich. I usually deconstruct.
Like I'll cut my bagel, slice it in half, spread the cream cheese, and then cut those, put it back together as a sandwich, and then cut it in half again.
So you end up with quarters.
But when I eat a bagel, I generally peel the quarters apart and eat them one quarter at a time as sort of an open -faced sandwich. And if you go to a bagel shop and you get those quarters and you pull open your bagel and one of those pieces comes up with no cream cheese on it, you know that they've just spread it on that first side, which I think is absolutely the wrong way to do it.
That makes a lot of sense.
I will keep it moving here because it's the lightning round and I will not take issue with the fact that you just referred to an open -faced bagel with cream cheese as an open -faced sandwich because there's no such thing as an open -faced sandwich. It's a misnomer.
But it's the lightning round, so we don't have time to get detoured.
Okay. Now let's take a question from a sporkful listener.
Hi, this is John Herndon in Westfield, Indiana, and my wife and I have a debate about leftover cake.
I say leftover cake should be left in the fridge where it becomes more dense and the flavor gets enhanced.
But she has a different opinion.
I like to have my cake kept on the countertop because then when I get the chance to finally consume it next, it's soft and moist and it doesn't have all that sticky gooey moisture that comes from keeping your cake in the refrigerator.
So definitely, let's store that cake on the countertop.
But we'd like to hear what your opinion is and what you think of that.
Well, first, Kenji there's two issues that I want to divide this question into because they're talking about dense versus fluffy and then they're talking about flavor enhancement.
And I think those are two different things that are happening.
So give us a quick explanation of what is actually happening to cake scientifically when it's sitting on the counter versus in the fridge.
And how does that affect both the texture and the flavor?
Right. Well, cakes are made with butter and flour.
They're very low gluten content.
When you put a piece of bread in the fridge, it's going to go stale because starch retrogrades and the gluten network kind of toughens up.
That's not really an issue with cake.
You can put cake in the fridge and it doesn't really go stale.
It just gets a little bit denser.
And that's mainly because the butterfat in there is solidifying the difference between room -temperature butter and fridge butter.
That's really the difference between a room -temperature cake and a fridge cake.
So that's what's going to give it that sort of creamier, denser texture.
The flavor -wise, things that are colder tend to be more muted in flavor than identical things at room temperature.
So the room -temperature cake, you're probably going to taste a little bit more flavor than you would in the fridge cake.
cake. But at the same time, you're not going to get that sort of mouth melting.
You know, you're not going to get that texture change as the cake goes from fridge temp to your mouth temperature and the butter kind of melts out.
So, you know, they are different eating experiences.
My answer would be cut the cake in half and put half in the fridge at room temperature, and then you both get what you want.
Yeah, I think it's a bit of a matter of taste.
I love cake from the fridge.
I like it when it's cold.
I love frosting when it's cold.
Yeah, maybe you want to take it out of the fridge fridge for a couple minutes so it's not totally fridge cold, but I actually prefer that.
I like the density of it.
One of my mother's favorite things was to get those Sara Lee pound cakes and put them in the freezer and then just eat them straight out of the freezer.
It's kind of like a little ice cream bar, but as it melts, it melts into cake instead of into ice cream.
That is kind of genius.
Well, I guess you come by it honestly, Kenji.
Next one. This is one I struggle with a lot.
When I'm making a soup or a stew or a sauce, Sometimes the recipe says simmer, and sometimes the recipe says put it on a low boil.
And I get very OCD about how many bubbles are there on the surface of the liquid?
When has it crossed from a simmer to a low boil?
Is the heat too high or is the heat too low?
Please help me. Where's the line between a simmer and a low boil?
Well, I think you're probably overthinking it too much is the real answer.
I think what you really have to do is just look at what the goal is Usually there's some sort of cues and clues within the recipe itself If it says simmer until reduced by half, about 30 minutes that'll give you sort of an idea of how quickly it should be bubbling You have a little bit of experience cooking so you'll know that if this is bubbling at X rate which is difficult to describe on the radio but if it's bubbling at this rate you know that it's probably going to take about half an hour to reduce down by half so that's a reasonable amount If you're simmering and you're just releasing one
or two bubbles every five seconds or so, you're never going to reduce it down.
For something like, say, a stock where your goal is to extract flavor but maintain clarity, you don't want it to be bubbling very vigorously at all because extra bubbles can emulsify fat and proteins and other things into the liquid that's going to make it cloudy.
So in those cases, a simmer really is just a couple bubbles at a time.
I think if a recipe is well -written, it will probably tell you precisely how many bubbles there should be, or it'll describe to you what it should look like if that's something that's important.
When I write a recipe, I try and be precise only in the places where one actually needs to be precise.
So if my recipe just says, bring to a boil, reduce to a bare simmer, or reduce to a simmer, and it's not any more precise than that, then most likely it's because the end results are not dependent upon exactly how strong that simmer is.
Yeah, for me, it's always a tension between I want it to reduce relatively quickly because I'm a somewhat impatient cook.
Right. But the flip side is I get worried that the bottom is going to burn.
Right, right. So, yeah, you can get things to reduce faster by boiling them harder.
If it's a thick thing, you probably will have to stir more frequently to make sure that it doesn't burn on the bottom.
The other downside of boiling faster is that the stronger something is boiling, the more sort of volatile aromatics are being thrown off into your kitchen.
you know and if they're going out into your kitchen they're not ending up on your plate right okay got it well kenji the job we are called to do here is not always easy but um we power through yeah rendering justice like like rendered fat do you render justice the way you render fat it's at a slow simmer right yeah but then i feel like the justice is now like it's a liquid and it's gonna spill all over the place we'll have to sop it up with bread yeah bread soaked yes bread soaked in justice Well, Kenji Lopez -Alt from Serious Eats, his book is The Food Lab, Better Home Cooking Through Science.
Thanks, Kenji. Thanks a lot.
This show is produced by Anne Sani, Shoshana Gold, and me.
Dan Charles is our editor.
Music help from Black Label Music.
This work was a production of Stitcher.
Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Jenny Radelin.
Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
And this is Jennifer from Bethel Park, PA, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
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