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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts.
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Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
Blake, thanks for joining us today.
It's so good to be here with you.
Thank you for having me.
Yes, it is our pleasure, my friend.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
So I am so lucky that I fell into customer experience as a topic, which is what I write books on and speak about now.
I've been doing it for almost 20 years.
And basically, I bring my message of customer centricity that if you want to win in business, if you want to differentiate that making your customers' lives easier and better is your best ticket to do so.
That customer service and customer experience are a business growth strategy.
And we know this in theory, but in practice, it can get complicated.
So I've written three books about it.
I have my new book coming out called the Eight Laws of Customer Focus Leadership.
It's coming out July 2nd of 2024.
And I fly all over the world to meet people in person, to do keynotes, to talk about, well, yes, if we make customers' lives easier and better, we will have more customers and we'll keep our current customers.
So I've understood that I have a few roles to the audience that I serve.
One is to help them be better storytellers, negotiators, because they are often in tough spots, they're running customer service departments, they need to get more money and resources.
So giving them stories and research and tools and ideas, basically how to be thought leaders inside their own companies.
And that's the first role.
The second role is just giving people workshops and content and serving up these ideas in every way possible.
So speaking, writing, consulting, doing this for so long with my own podcast, The Modern Customer.
And I have two little kids married to an entrepreneur that's been on your show as well.
So we keep it busy here.
And I love what I do because what I talk about customer experience, it's obvious for all of us as customers, but it's also not obvious for many businesses and they really don't know how to do it.
Well, that's why most of us can recount a terrible customer experience we had even in the last two weeks.
Absolutely. Oh, this is so good.
And Blake, as you're talking, I'm just thinking about so many different things that I wanted to talk to you about, including this would probably be offline, just how you and Jacob managed all of this with two kids, which is incredibly impressive.
But I think when people hear you say your goal is to help make customers lives easier and better.
I think everybody listening would say, duh, of course, that I agree.
Now, the challenge is we recognize that customer service is lacking in different companies.
I'll even concede sometimes there are times within A &I that we fall short.
And so what is it that holds people back from going from that mere understanding that our goal is to make customers lives easier and better and then actually putting that into practice with consistency?
I mean, we all fall into this trap, even as entrepreneurs, it's really exciting to make money and we have to make money all the time.
So we're very, all of us as business people are very focused on what's happening today.
But I think the competitors, the winners in business understand that business is about holding two opposing ideas in your mind at the same time, which means how can I focus on what's happening today, putting out all the fires to bring it local, make sure the kids are fed, they're at school, they're
at camp, they have everything they need.
But how about the growth, even for the family, for the individual, like we should go on a vacation this summer?
Do I have time to plan that?
No. But I understand it's important, it's future looking.
So it's just a funny example of like how we would bring it home for the individual.
But in business, like in doing the research for my book, what I learned is that many leaders struggle to think about all the stuff they have on their plate today, while also thinking about the future, like innovation, like technology, how are we going to serve our customers better?
What are our future goals?
Where does the business, where do we want it to be in two years, five years, 10 years?
So everyone in a way is a customer experience futurist, because if you're interested in growing your business and becoming better, then you have to not only take care of everything today and do it with gusto and have the best mindset and passion for everything you do today, while also thinking about,
well, where do I want to go tomorrow?
And in all my research that just kept coming up as the biggest Henry block, it's not difficult, but customers, we all want to make our customers lives easier and better and our employees.
But in practice, it's not that easy, because we get complacent.
We just sort of get in a rut.
We do what we've always done.
We're not always looking at, okay, where are the gaps?
And how can we perform at a higher level and improve?
It's exhausting, to be honest, for many people, they just can't do it.
So that's why it's so important to have the customer -centric culture, to have the systems in place in the company where it shouldn't feel exhausting, because it's on a wash, rinse, repeat schedule.
It's just part of how we run our business in this employee and customer -focused approach.
Oh, this is so good.
And Blake, as you're describing this, I'm recognizing that we can utilize these negotiation skills internally, as well as externally.
So we coming into this podcast, even for me, as the host, I'm thinking, I'm excited to ask Blake about customer service focusing on the external side.
But what we're recognizing is that, yeah, as individual contributors, we can improve our skills.
That's great. But I think we could have a greater impact if we can really focus those negotiation skills internally to get our team on board with this more customer -centric approach too.
So let's say there's a changemaker within an organization that wants to help to push their organization in a direction that is more customer -centric.
How should they approach that internal negotiation?
Well, they say that we have two ears and one mouth for a reason.
So like in the book, I have a chapter on the first 90 days.
What should you do in the first 90 days in a job?
That's Michael Watkins.
I didn't come up with that.
He wrote the book the first 90 days.
But applied to a customer service role or any role really, I advise people to go on a listening tour.
So really just meet people, understand where the gaps are, get a lay of the land, don't start day one and burn the building down and say, everything you're doing is terrible.
Here's what you should be doing.
You have to listen and understand everything before you make your moves.
And so I think a listening tour and just building advocates, making friends is really, really important.
And I think first impressions matter a lot.
And really what you're doing is you're building relationships.
And once you build strong relationships, you'll have more advocates in the company.
But it's very hard to do.
That's why go slow.
Take care of yourself.
Don't, they call it what, drink from the fire hose.
Just one thing at a time, one foot in front of the other.
Make sure you're in a great place mentally.
So you have that smile in your voice when you meet people.
You have an open mind.
You're not biased or bitter in your first few weeks.
You just want to be open, listening, and friendly and careful to be honest.
Tread carefully, because you don't always know what landmine you're going to step on.
I mean, some of these businesses, you don't always know what you're walking into.
And I even worked at a fortune 500 company and honestly it was really, really hard.
And my, it's a long story, but I ended up getting laid off.
My boss was demoted.
Someone else came in.
It was just tough. I went there to make change.
And I would say that unfortunately, because I couldn't, I couldn't create the relationships with the people who had worked their 30 years.
Like it was really, really hard.
So be patient with yourself, be kind to yourself, starting anything new is really, really hard.
And these skills are hard to build, but like any muscle as you work on them, it will get easier.
This is great advice because especially that, that patience and persistence, I think that's necessary because if you go in with the wrong mindset, you might put in an effective strategy, but you might not have the resilience to see it through to the end because you're looking for a quick win when it'll
take some time. So I think that that is well -founded and very important to keep in mind.
And I couldn't help but hear some of those customer centric conversational skills come in as well, because it sounds like we're utilizing a lot of the same techniques that we would use with folks outside of our organizations, our customers themselves, as we would within our organization as well.
Yeah, I mean, everything in life is a negotiation.
Like even think of your marriage.
I mean, for me, I am constantly trying to figure out how I can meet my husband halfway.
You know, we're all different people.
So understanding that in all your relationships in your life, you're going to have to negotiate and you can't always get everything you want.
And I always even tell my kids, like, you can have everything you want, but not all at once and not necessarily when you want it.
So understanding how to mentally coach yourself, to keep yourself calm and happy and in a grateful place, even when things aren't easy, or it feels like you're not having any wins.
The customer experience mindset is what I call it.
It is not just a business strategy.
It's really a way of life.
When you have the customer experience mindset, you learn if you don't wake up from a place of gratitude, you get yourself to a place of gratitude, and under just being self aware about how you can train your mind to overcome common obstacles in daily life.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations?
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Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.
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Let's talk about this internal battle now internally, within ourselves.
Because you've mentioned it a number of times, and I want to just focus in on this too.
Because we often focus so much on the outcomes that we want to achieve, and the person on the other side, that we fail to focus on ourselves, and the energy and mindset that we're bringing into these conversations.
So when we're talking about the customer experience mindset, what does that really entail?
The customer experience mindset is the person that is grateful to wake up, jump out of bed, and have a purpose in their life.
Some people don't get that opportunity, you know, they're hurt, they're sick.
If you just can like put your feet down on the ground next to your bed, get up and you are a blessed, lucky person.
And just, you know, there are a lot of setbacks, like the world is kind of a messy place right now.
A lot of stuff just doesn't feel clear.
And it's confusing.
So if you are someone that can just hold yourself to a high standard with yourself, so fulfill on your commitments to yourself.
If you say you're going to go for a walk with your dog in the morning, or go exercise or meditate, or eat something healthy, you know, do it, or your commitments to others.
If that means you have to turn off some of the news or the negativity out there, whatever you have to do to basically find clarity for yourself is really, really important.
The customer experience mindset means the leader that focuses on themselves that they understand what they need to do to have energy to serve others.
And a common example is on an airplane, put the mask on yourself before you put the mask on others.
So it's like even being a parent, like my husband and I both exercise and there's really not time in the day to exercise, but when you have little kids, like you're, there's less time for yourself.
But like we figure it out how we can make the time to move our bodies, because at least for me personally, moving the body clears the mind.
The more I move the body, the more my mind is clear.
So no excuses. It's a little bit of the military mindset, like do whatever you have to do.
No excuses to fulfill on your commitments to yourself.
So you have that energy for influencing change.
So when you speak, you can change the molecules in the room.
You can impact other people.
You come from a place of love because once someone comes from a place of love and they're open and kind, everyone else in the room just relaxes because it is more rare these days.
People are impatient and sometimes they're curt not kind.
And it's just, if you can be the opposite with the customer experience mindset, it changes how everybody else around you feels too.
Oh my gosh. I didn't like that was such a micro -drug moment that I'm like, let me just end at this point.
It's so true because the proper skill set will often flow organically from the proper mindset.
And as you were saying all these things, I could see how even before we get to the training aspect and like what to do and what to say, just bringing that same, that energy and that mindset into the conversation will completely change the way that you navigate that conversation.
So this is really important and self -care is not selfish.
We have to take care of ourselves.
And to your point, Blake, like people on my team have said that they can tell a difference in me when I have not worked out in the morning before work.
So they're like, whatever you do, make sure Kwame gets to the gym.
So all of this is so, so important.
Yeah, absolutely. And I know exercise, maybe it's not an option for everybody, but I have found that the trifecta of 10 minute meditation exercise, which includes cardio and strength training, and then some cold water in my life, I find like if you have a swimming pool or even a bath or shower, doesn't
need to be freezing, but like a little cold.
I don't know why this is, but literally all stress just melts away from the cold water.
For me, it doesn't have to be an ice bath.
It can just be cold.
Even if you just splash cold water on your face, you don't have a pool, like the clarity from the cold water, it really, really helps.
And what you're showing here is that we don't need to do the ultimate version of this.
So it doesn't need to be a cold plunge for nine minutes or whatever.
I think that's death.
Whatever it might be.
It's like, hey, we can find what is the minimum effective dose.
And so it's like, hey, if I can't work out, I'll go for a walk.
I'll take the stairs, just a little something like that.
If I can't get a full meditation session in, I'm saying, okay, cool.
This page is loading.
I'm going to do a little five seconds.
Right. And then also when we think about minimum effective dose, we need to think about minimum effective dose as it relates to the, to the information that we consume, because it's important for us to be knowledgeable.
But then there is the detriment of overconsumption of negative news that doesn't lead to a return on investment.
Be aware, but don't just wallow in misery.
All of these things will have an impact on the, the energy that you bring to the conversations too.
Yeah. And I would consume a little bit, but not too much because like, even for us as content creators, like I don't really, I'm not super political online and there's just so much political content out there.
And groups are angry and, and so much negativity at the same time, like you still need to show up for your teams, your family.
Like you can't walk around saying like the world is a horrible place.
You know, we still need leaders.
We need people that smile.
We need people that show up and are kind to others.
That might not be the main story because no one wants to hear about that, that somebody helped an old lady walk across the street.
That's not interesting for, for consumers.
So, or at least the, you know, you don't often see those kinds of stories, but find the kindness in your own life, even if it's just watching something silly on YouTube or like standup comedy, like Jacob and I, every night pretty much, we watch like about an hour of TV because whatever stress from the kids
all, you know, we just, we want to kind of escape it.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
I'm not saying everyone has to watch TV, but like just some kind of departure, some escape, because we all need to blow off steam at some point.
I agree. 100%. And uh, my wife's a doctor too.
So that's one of our, our guilty pleasures.
Like once the boys are in bed, we just watch like the dumbest stuff.
It's so nice, right?
Yes. Okay. Before we move on, what's your, your show of choice right now with you and Jacob?
We actually just started a new one, which is like a little scary called Jinx on HBO.
It just came to mind.
It's not really my show of choice per se, but it's a murder mystery, which there's not much else you can think about when you're watching something scary and it's like a true crime drama on HBO.
And yeah, so honestly, I, I hate that.
That's the answer I gave you.
Cause I asked this question on my podcast in a rapid fire, but yeah.
And we're, we also are watching dark matter, which is a sci -fi show.
There's so many good shows now though.
It's almost hard to choose so many options.
Whitney and I are on a, we love auto.
What is it? American auto, which is a comedy.
And then all of the Netflix dramas is just, if there's something that makes you feel good about your life, it is watching Netflix, like reality TV.
It's like, well, you know, things aren't that bad.
Yeah. Yeah. There's so many.
Are you like a love is blind fan?
Yes. I love it. I love it.
I love that show. It's, it's so great.
So little substance, which is why it's great.
Yeah. But yes. Okay.
Back to regularly scheduled programming.
So now let's say we are now in the customer service interaction.
And so we are focusing on making the customer's lives easier and better.
But the customer's triggered, they're upset and they are blaming you for everything that's going wrong in their life.
Now, first of all, before we get into the X's and O's, what is the general approach that we should bring to this conversation?
And then we can get into what exactly to say?
Well, first, so we're talking about the frontline.
It's really important to give your frontline tools to have boundaries and to separate themselves because the person receiving this negativity has nothing to do with probably what happened.
So that's a really, really hard.
So I think it's important to provide almost like support groups for your agents to teach them or your frontline, like how to diffuse a situation with the customer and also not go home crying at night because someone yelled at you, which something had nothing to do with you.
So I would say that's number one.
I think a lot of customers want just to feel heard.
They just want someone to say, I see you, I hear you.
And if you can just do that, many customers will just calm down a lot.
And it's really an opportunity.
I say that customer experience is the best marketing that money can't buy.
So if a customer feels heard, it might have nothing to do with your brand, but you've just given them this beautiful gift and they're going to tell all their friends about how amazing your company is.
But I would say those two things are really important.
So tool development tools for your frontline, so they don't take this negativity home with them, celebrate them, celebrate their wins, have fun at work, give them a support group of other agents.
So they don't take the negativity home because we know in the context and our churn is like 50%.
People do not want to work in these jobs and also teach almost psychology to your agents to make the customer feel heard.
The worst thing I think you can do is to make excuses.
Like I'll give you an example.
I was at C, I already said this story, but I was at CVS the other day.
My son had a ear infection.
So I took my son with me.
I didn't have a sitter and we went to CVS to the pharmacy to get the medicine for the ear infection.
It's a medicine your wife probably knows is it needs to be mixed.
It's like a powder and a liquid, a water, special water.
So I take them the medicine home.
I realized they didn't mix it.
They didn't put the water.
So I call the pharmacy and I learn I have to go back because they made it a boo boo.
Well, unfortunately the pharmacist didn't apologize.
He started making excuses.
All a customer wants to hear in that situation is I'm so sorry, this is our bad.
How can we make it right?
And any excuse just feels really, really bad.
Like nails on the chalkboard.
So it's so important to when you make a boo boo, apologize and own it.
And you're going to have much more success with the customer.
Oh, this is good. Okay.
So let me recap this, uh, for, for the audience here.
So first we have to recognize that this is hard work.
And so we have to have support and tools, like I love the, uh, like the support group idea to help people not personalize this.
So you have these tools in place to make sure that the people on the front lines are emotionally well before, during, and after the conversation.
And then simple, the simple, but very difficult advice to put into places.
Don't make excuses, give an apology.
And now I love the consistency focusing on mental health because yes, that's so important.
Again, you cannot operate well in these con conversations or you'll struggle to operate well if you are not well yourself.
So I love that point.
And I also find it very interesting that what we need to do, first of all, don't make excuses, own it, and apologize.
Those two things, those are the two things that are like least likely to occur.
And so I realize it's not, it's not that people don't know how to do this.
I think everybody conceptually can understand how to apologize and how not to make excuses, but there is this compulsion within us to do those two things when they are the two things that we shouldn't do.
So how do we overcome that internally to say what needs to be said in the heat of the moment, even though it's hard?
Yeah. I think that important, what's important is breath is to take a deep breath and root yourself.
I mean, even I'm like next to a stress ball.
You can't see me, just something like stress ball might help.
It depends if you're on the phone in person, but to keep yourself calm so you're able to interact, but also put a bit of a wall up, but maybe so the customer can't tell.
So you don't want to make them feel bad because you're shutting them out and being curt or mean, but you also, again, you have to be careful with your energy and if you're emotionally intelligent and you're a feeling person, it's probably what makes you good at your job.
At the same time, if you absorb other people's energy all the time, you're going to go home just feeling exhausted, like an energy zombie just attacked you.
So I think having tools to, again, empathy for yourself, a way to distance yourself from the customer while also making them feel heard is really, really important.
And there are communication tools and special words and language that companies can train their agents and their frontline to use.
But also again, just making the positivity more loud for your employees and the negativity like Warby Parker, the former head of the contact center there, he left recently, but he had remote agents, so he would do fun things like send them work wardrobe, which is in the office.
He would celebrate them, even just little things like the lanyards they wore at the office or putting their name for their birthday on screens inside saying, happy birthday or the manager would write them handwritten notes or cards for certain occasions.
And then the agents would display these cards on their desk and be really proud of these handwritten notes.
So I think it's just putting the effort into engaging your employees, which will really pay off.
This is so good. As you're saying, it's hard for me to stay focused in this interview because I'm saying to myself, oh my gosh, these are all things I should do.
That's okay, good. This is great.
I'm just thinking about how I could incorporate it.
So this is amazing.
And I think it's very, I love how practical this is, but also doable.
This is attainable.
These are things that we all can do.
We just need to really just focus in on and prioritize doing these things.
And I really want to hammer this home because it's not necessarily easy to add more things to the list of to -do, but we recognize that it will be effective and we will not be able to advance in this without putting forth effort.
And one of the things that you mentioned is that there are some communication tools, some words and phrases people can use.
When you think about some of these conversations that customer service professionals can find themselves in, what are some of the go -to phrases or approaches that you found to be most effective?
Yeah, it's hard to apologize for something that's not your fault, but it does feel nice to have someone say to you, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
I think sometimes this can be used as, I'm sorry you feel that way, which is a bit of a, it makes the customer feel like there was no wrongdoing.
So I wouldn't say I'm sorry you feel that way, but wow, you know, I'm so sorry that your rental car didn't come as fast as you wanted it to, or that your hotel room wasn't ready when you needed it.
I feel really bad and we want to make it right.
So I think that puts confidence in the relationship, like I'm sorry that happened and we want to fix it.
Here's what I'm going to do to fix it and just making it really clear.
This requires the managers to take away roadblocks from the front line, so giving them money and resources to be able to block and tackle for the customer.
There's nothing more frustrating than interacting with a customer service agent that really can do nothing to help you.
So saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that happened to you really genuinely, and also here's how I'm going to fix it.
It's really simple, but just these two things added with and I can fix it, here's what we're going to do.
It's just the best feeling.
It's just a relief for the customer that they can stop worrying that someone's going to take care of them.
Blake, you know what I love about that is that, well first I'm going to use it with Whitney all the time.
So this is great. The second thing is you're helping us to overcome that emotional barrier that I think it can make people feel inauthentic when they're apologizing because they're saying, but Blake, I didn't do anything wrong.
It's their fault, blah, blah, blah, whatever it happens to be, but we could say, hey, I can acknowledge the fact that this is an unfortunate situation for you and I wish that you were not in said situation.
And by saying, I'm so sorry that happened, you can give the person the emotional validation that they're looking for while still being authentic and not accepting responsibility for something you truly believe that you didn't do.
So I really, really appreciate that phrasing.
I think that's really empowering.
I'm so glad. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people don't like to say, I'm sorry.
They're like allergic to it.
You might have friends like this that really do not like to say, I'm sorry.
But if you're working in service or you're working with customers, if you don't have humility in your heart that you, you're too good to say, I'm sorry, it's probably not the best job for you.
If you build relationships, then you have to, it's a negotiation, you have to meet people halfway.
And so humility is part of that customer experience mindset and caring about serving others, being willing to swallow your pride at times to make the customer feel heard.
It's not an easy job at all.
But if you're, if you can do it well, I think you'll always have a job because there's such a need for people with these tools.
I agree. 100%. And like, this is probably the toughest question I'm going to ask, but if you could focus in on just one piece of content, one book that somebody should buy, if they wanted to learn eight laws of customer service, what, what book should they buy?
What book should they buy?
Oh, they should definitely buy my book.
Head over to 8cxlaws .com.
And I would love to talk with your audience about how they, how they take these ideas and translate them to their negotiation powers at work, whether they work in customer service or with customers or not.
So thanks for that plug.
I really appreciate that.
Yeah, we appreciate you.
This has been an exceptional interview.
We really appreciate it.
And before you go, let the listeners know about your podcast and the speaking engagements and how they can get in touch.
Yeah, I have my own podcast called The Modern Episodes.
I would love you guys to listen.
And I do keynotes, trainings, workshops.
So feel free to get in touch with me, Blake Morgan, all over social.
Come to my website and we will talk negotiation, which is such a great topic.
Thank you so much for having me.
I hopefully will do it again.
Absolutely. Thanks for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again.
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I'll catch you later.
