Hey, everyone.
It's Anna.
Before we start the show, I'm back for the last time to ask for your stories about romantic gestures for this year's Valentine's Day episode.
We want to know the most romantic thing that's ever happened to you, that you've ever experienced, that you've ever seen or witnessed.
Whether it's a big rom-com-style gesture or something small and private and sweet, we want to hear about it.
We've heard from so many of you so far, and we can't wait to hear more.
But I will just say, we've gotten a lot of submissions from women.
Love you girls.
Thank you.
But we want to hear from everyone else too.
So men, non-binary folks, people who aren't women, we're especially excited to hear from you.
Whatever made you feel that rush of romance, from the big moments to the tiny ones, we want to hear about it.
And we want to know why it was so romantic to you.
If you have a story in mind, record a voice memo and email it to us at modernlovepodcast at nytimescom by February 4th.
And we may use your story on the show.
That's modernlovepodcast at nytimes.com.
And once again, your deadline is approaching.
It's February 4th.
All right.
Thanks, everyone.
We can't wait to hear from you.
Love now and always.
Love is stronger.
Full of love.
And I love you more than anything.
There's still love.
Love.
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
Today, I'm talking to a comedian who found himself in a very unfunny situation.
His name is Jordan Carlos.
And Jordan's really not proud of this.
But for years he thought that because he was out there hustling so hard to make money for his family, he didn't have to do a single chore at home.
He also didn't have to be involved in the day-to-day of raising his two kids.
No, that was for his wife to do, even though she had a job too.
The whole thing reached a breaking point.
And basically, Jordan had a decision to make.
Step up or lose his family.
He decided to step up.
Jordan wrote a book all about the changes he made, and he joined me in the studio to talk about exactly how he did it.
He also told me why it's essential to your relationship to always know how much toilet paper is in the house.
Jordan Carlos, welcome to Modern Love.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I think you know it's safe to say that every marriage has some friction around the balance of who does what.
Cleaning, cooking, kid stuff, calendar management, just keeping up the home.
But it sounds like for a while there, you were really kind of falling short in your marriage.
Is that right?
Me?
Yeah.
Falling short.
OK, it's all it's all in how you look at it.
By what metric?
No.
Yes, I was definitely falling short.
Definitely falling short.
At this time, what were you doing to keep the household running?
Like what was you in your domain in terms of day to day stuff?
Oh, dear.
I hold on.
The pause, I think, is very informative.
As you well know.
Yes, I walked the dog when told to do it.
I walked the child to daycare, which was far.
That was a whole seven minute walk.
And by the way, the stroll up the hill, like that stroller was, it was a bugaboo.
And those are expensive, but not great.
And so I was really putting in the work.
Dog walking, walking the kid to school in a bugaboo.
What else?
I took out the trash once.
That was cool.
But I wasn't doing...
Much of anything.
I was making... What I was doing was making money.
Yeah.
I was making money.
Yeah.
And, I mean, talk more about that.
So it's like you.
Those were the sort of duties we can count them, I guess, on one hand on the home front.
Yeah.
But you were thinking to yourself, I'm bringing home the bacon.
Was that sort of how you were thinking about it?
It was, yeah.
And I think that... a lot of, like, my behavior, right?
And I was... I just felt like cleaning...
And all the rest of the domestic duties didn't apply to me.
I didn't want to be bothered.
And I don't like that guy.
I was going to say, like you know, I asked you a bit earlier.
You know what was in your purview at home?
And you mentioned the dog and pushing the bugaboo.
There are so many obviously, other things you know, duties you did not name.
Yes um, for example, cooking all the meals, doing all the laundry, cleaning the toilet, cleaning the kitchen, cleaning the refrigerator, restocking the pantry.
You know certain.
You know things like this yeah, although again you did walk the dog, so thank you.
How was that stuff, all that stuff?
How was that getting done in your house?
Um, I was told like magical sprites were doing doing the cleaning.
Sometimes it would be like the milk fairy.
Cause my, my wife would be like, oh, there's more milk.
How did that get there?
I guess it was the milk fairy or is.
Like you know, the TP would run low and she'd be like, I guess, the toilet paper fairy came.
She would say this.
And she was making jokes, but that was like passive aggressive.
And I could feel the resentment rising with each passing year when she'd make these bits, these jokes.
And she was restocking.
She was keeping track of all these things, what we needed to get through the next week month, whatever it was right.
She had her eyes on the horizon.
I just did not, you know?
And what about in terms of sort of the logistics of a home, which are infinite seeming?
Yes.
What about with raising the kids?
I mean, you mentioned appointments and stuff.
She was also she was handling that.
She was the appointment fairy.
She was the appointment fairy.
She knew the size of the children's clothes.
The shoe sizes, because they change.
I mean, it's not my fault.
These kids' feet grow and grow and grow.
But seriously, she would keep track of the size of the shoes.
And because she had a cadre of moms, they would do this kind of like wonderful mutual aid thing where if my kid outgrew some shoes, I'd give them to another person, another person.
And so my kids got this heavy rotation of clothes from other kids.
But you had to know what size the children would be.
And that just was I just was not I was watching that go by.
I couldn't tell you at the time.
In terms of to like sort of the, maybe more like emotional or not even emotional, like you were spending time with your kids, right?
Like what was the quality of the time that you were spending with them?
I don't think it was good.
I don't think it was good.
I think I was very short with them.
There were activities that I wanted to do that I would take the kids on.
And then I could be fun dad.
Like what?
Like, let's go to Central Park or maybe the Met.
And then after that, you know, we're near Dylan's candy shop, right?
Oh, my God.
But then we need to finish that off with Serendipity 3, which is right down the block.
And then...
Is that another candy shop?
No.
Sorry.
That is an ice cream shop.
Okay.
I will not have the New York Times reporting lies.
All right.
So I wanted my kids to have burned on their brain that their dad was so much fun.
Why?
Uh...
Still working on that because I didn't get to do those things as a kid.
I didn't get to do those things as a kid.
And I wanted my kids to know my fun side.
And I wanted them, I think to.
I wanted to make up for the fact that I was more like the show pony and not the workhorse.
I had all the bells and the whistles and you know the poppers and not, not those kind of talking about fireworks.
So, like, that's what I was trying to be.
And I was performing, really.
Performing for my kids.
But then I'm imagining sort of continuing that story.
Yes.
You arrive home after this amazing day.
You're done being fun.
Yeah.
Well yes, because then the fun sponge comes along and she basically has, to like, regulate what's going on.
Right.
Because I've got them all hopped up on sugar.
Right.
And maybe maybe somebody's got homework.
Somebody needs changing like baths need to be taken.
And you call her the if you're the fun parent.
Yeah.
Your wife became the fun sponge.
Yes.
She was sucking all the fun out.
She was like the fun police.
And we didn't like that, you know?
Like, she'd always be like, yo, yo, yo.
Bedtime.
Yeah.
Or it's past bedtime.
You know, we blew through that, you know?
Did you, you said that she'd make jokes, you know, oh, the toilet paper fairy came or whatever.
Yeah.
Do you remember conversations where you really talked about this?
Maybe even a fight?
Yes.
Yes.
Because she was always saying that I'm alone.
I'm doing this alone.
And that would be triggering for me.
Because I felt like...
In this partnership, I was doing all of that I was doing, the comedy.
I was providing all this stuff for us.
And for her to say that she was alone just made me feel, I felt it was unfair to say.
And it just, it hurt my ego, obviously.
I would take such issue with it.
I hated it.
Do you remember what you would say back if she said, I'm doing this alone again?
I would say that you're not alone.
That's not true.
I would just say that it wasn't true.
I wouldn't listen.
I wouldn't listen at all.
I just, I would refute what she was saying.
I would say that, like, I'm killing myself.
I'm going to all these clubs, these colleges.
I'm on the road.
I'm doing all for this family.
And I just didn't have time to take a breath.
I didn't want to hear about it.
I thought that was just the wrong assessment of what was going on, you know?
I would get upset because I wanted her to understand that this is the price of achieving something in comedy.
This is what it is, you know?
This is what you bought into.
And I'd have these moments where it was like, we get into a fight right before I left.
And it was maybe something I hadn't done.
And I had to leave to go do a comedy show.
Yeah, that's a tough transition.
Right.
So in those arguments, at those moments, especially if the argument had to do Like if it was about housework or division of labor or something with the kids and I had to go do a show, I'd be like
Thanks, babe.
Now I got to go be funny.
Yeah.
That is really tough.
I mean, it's, it's.
What's the matter with me?
No, I mean.
Well, you know, I think that someone listening might be like I don't really like this guy.
But I think that I think that, like I think, you're voicing something that a lot of people don't put voice to because it's very vulnerable, because you sound like a dick.
Yeah.
Thank you.
You do.
Thank you.
But this is what I'm saying is like I think it's in order for you to make a change.
I think it's really important to be honest about where you were before that change right.
So let's talk about, let's talk about By the way, I'm pitted out at this moment.
I'm like, I can't believe I said all those things.
No, this is what I'm, I'm feeling grateful.
Like I said, that you're being honest.
Sure.
Because I think this is, I think a lot of people listening, they might be the you in this situation.
Maybe they're your wife, you know, in that situation.
But I think it's very important to be honest about it.
Thank you.
Especially because we're about to turn.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
We'll be right back.
So let's talk about what made you kind of stop and realize something is really off in my marriage and I need to change really before it's too late.
Like, this is way more dire than I ever anticipated.
I know it started...
During COVID, right?
This was the moment?
Okay.
Tell me about that.
During COVID, everything stopped, right?
There was no TV production.
There were no shows.
And everything came to a screeching halt.
And I kind of found myself to be a stranger in my own home.
What do you mean by that?
Invisible?
Invisible.
I mean, I could tell that I wasn't needed.
I was redundant.
Huh.
I was like, okay, I don't know what everybody does at 11 a.m.
I don't know what people do for lunch here.
You know, what's the story here?
I'm usually gone, you know?
And it felt like I was going to get fired, you know?
From your family.
Yeah.
It felt like I was going to get fired from my family.
Like, I was an appendage.
Like, I just didn't... You didn't need it.
You didn't need it.
And...
The feeling is a kind of a lurking doom.
Like, there's something under the surface, like a submarine, that's hunting you, you know?
And closing in on you.
And it's the reality that... this unit can get along without you.
Maybe you could co-parent as best you can, but like on a long enough timeline.
This will come to a head and a very bright woman.
Your partner will do the right thing by her and her kids.
And what is that?
Let's just say what that is.
Yeah, I think it's divorce.
It's dissolution of the marriage.
It didn't feel like we were going anywhere.
And what I realize now is What I would say was the music turned off, like in musical chairs.
There was definite dysfunctions.
There were so many things going wrong, like a Rube Goldberg machine, but the music had not stopped right.
So when it did...
You saw the problems.
You saw the big gaping holes.
I would be busy doing something else so I couldn't do the laundry.
Now I'm not busy.
And I just didn't know my place.
I didn't know my place and that created friction.
There was a lot of like wallowing, right?
And self-pity.
And that created more friction in the home.
And now I'm still not doing the laundry?
What is that?
And she's still teaching, by the way.
My gosh.
She's still teaching.
I mean, I was like, the more I speak, I'm like, I'm a man baby.
But it was just like, she was taking on so much.
And I can see now that...
The cracks were getting bigger and bigger.
The conversations were getting more serious about what I needed to do.
How, like, you know, the comparisons with other husbands.
And she was always feeding me stories about how people were breaking up.
And how people were getting divorced.
You know, someone still got divorced.
You know, this one got dumped.
And he's living in a van.
You know, and I was like, oh, man.
So, I...
I was taking all that in.
I was taking all that in.
The one saving grace of being a comedian is that you do observe.
Sometimes, if you gotta, you know if you gotta.
If your spouse has Esther Perel in the nightstand, the call is coming from inside the house.
You need to change your ways immediately.
Like book, like spine turned out, like to your side, you know what I mean?
Like a highlighter next to it.
Come on!
So yeah, I did also.
During this period there was also a divorce very close, like you know, in our family
So we were front row to a divorce, a very ugly divorce.
That's very scary.
Yeah.
It sounds like at some point you were like things need to change or this I will not be married anymore.
Yeah, things need to change or I will not be married.
How did you know it's like, oh, this is what I need to start working on?
It was a Canadian.
Really?
You know, there's this one Canadian husband.
He's a sweetheart.
Like in your friend group?
In my friend group in Brooklyn.
And he famously, famously made coffee for his wife every morning, right?
So we're talking about a very low bar here.
And he would bring it to her in bed and the ladies would rave about it.
Wow.
So, I mean, just think about how low that bar is.
Totally.
Yeah.
And it was just Bustelo.
It wasn't anything crazy.
I mean, I love Bustelo.
You like Bustelo?
Yeah, I do.
I do.
All right.
Yeah.
Gentlemen, are you hearing this?
Ladies, are you hearing this?
All right.
So I feel like when he did that, I always remembered that story that stayed with me.
And people would repeat it like myth, you know?
And so...
One morning after we'd had a really bad fight about like, about all of it, just about all of it.
You know, I think we were at.
Neither of us wanted to say like let's break up.
But it was definitely on the menu, you know, and I was so tired of being at odds with my best friend and the love of my life that I just remembered the coffee thing.
And I was like all right well, I remember the Canadian and it's so hard to get up in the morning because I don't, I don't wake up.
So I had to get up, and I had to find the coffee.
I didn't even know where we kept it, you know?
Like, it was bad, right?
So I do it.
I think I stepped on a myriad of Legos and, like, almost broke my neck going down the stairs.
And then, like, I, like, froth the milk like she likes and, like, you know, agave, not sugar.
I got that going on the right amount because she doesn't like too much.
And then I bring it back upstairs.
I'm like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
And then I bring it to her.
And she looks at me kind of like, what's going on?
Are you punking me right now?
Like, what's, is this a prank?
And then I was like, not a prank.
I just want you to have this coffee.
It's, you know, it's for you.
It's for you.
Morning coffee.
She drank it.
She liked it.
Smile.
Olive branch, you know?
And then everything was fine.
I was like, wow, that Canadian really got it.
No, but you hadn't done that before or you hadn't done that in a while.
I hadn't done it ever.
I hadn't done it ever.
Um listen, i'm a nice guy yeah, i mean, but you, you hadn't.
You hadn't because what?
You were normally asleep right, i was asleep as a comedian, you get to sleep.
I mean, often i'd feel like a day walker, like it would be, like the sun would burn my face a little bit.
You know that point where you're getting radiant heat on your face and you're like i gotta, I wake up.
So like I'd had, I'd maintained that ritual since college.
This is my routine.
This is my recipe for success.
But you give her this coffee.
Yeah.
How did it feel for you when you gave her the coffee and you saw that smile?
My hand was shaking.
My hand was like totally shaking.
And, like when she did that know, react positively.
I was elated.
I was elated, you know.
There were no words i could say or um, any other kind of like gifts i could give that would have put the smile on her face and made me feel uh, really good, it was, it was, it was um doing that.
You know, i i just started to repeat that i, i made coffee for her every morning And then after a while I was like looking around and I was like okay well, if I can do this, then what else can I do?
Right?
What else can I do?
How did you figure that out?
Um, just scaling.
I was like okay well, in improv it's like i'm a comedian so um, one of the things in improv is not only yes, and but if this, what else?
Huh right, so you just kind of use those improvisational skills and look around at at um, what other things you can do that are probably not that hard to do.
So i just looked around and i was like okay, there's a myriad of things that that are not that hard to do.
I just have to identify them.
Give me, give me some of those Easily done.
Emptying the dishwasher or like empty the dishwasher is like it takes.
What 10 minutes of your time tops?
But if you get like a little process going, you're like, Alexa, play this, that and the third.
You know, you can like groove out to it and it's over.
Right.
It's over.
Making up the bed, especially when if I wake up first and then she gets out later.
Go back, make up the bed.
I would do that.
And it was like, it was just one other thing she didn't have to do.
I had to know the schedule.
I didn't know the routines.
Right.
Learning like when recycling versus compost versus trash was supposed to be taken out.
Were you writing this down?
Like, where was this going?
It was all going into my head, you know?
And so I was like keeping track, casual track, of all these patterns and rhythms so I could get into rhythm with what was happening around the house, right?
So like understanding that laundry was on the weekends, duh.
Learning when family dinners were.
So she has her mom and dad live close.
They each have their own kind of family dinner night.
Like not being taken by surprise on things like that.
We talked about toilet paper.
How did you factor that in?
Oh, TP?
Yeah, TP.
Well, I mean, I had to come online, right?
And like before I wouldn't really think about the toilet paper, but after I was like okay, I was just looking around for the lowest hanging fruit.
You have to understand that I am the laziest man.
So I had to look for the lowest hanging fruit.
Yeah, toilet paper.
Toilet paper.
Understanding how much you had in the house.
What about groceries?
Groceries, yes.
I mean, look on the groceries tip.
I was like I would always get groceries because she would make me go get the groceries and write the list and all this stuff and like
And then I'd text her and be like, where is this in the grocery store?
So it was almost like she was doing Instacart, but I was the Instacart grocery person.
So she would have to manage me as I did these tasks.
So I was like, what if I cut that out?
What if I cut that out?
What is the laziest way?
What is the path of least resistance to get where I want to go?
And it was an online, like an app.
So I used an app and, just like, took the list, took a picture of the list from last week and input it into the app this week.
Yeah.
And presto change-o.
Look, thank you, Silicon Valley, for catching up with slobs.
I mean, but you're saying these things are lazy and... They are.
And...
Yeah, okay, lazy.
And then they're also like sort of you creating hacks or reminders for yourself to come online, as you say, to realize what needs to be done, to empower yourself, to be self-sufficient, to get it done and to take these things off of your wife's plate.
I mean, and let's just say, you know, probably way later in the game.
I mean definitely way later in the game than she would have liked.
But you're doing these things, you're making these changes.
Were you...
Were you noticing your wife clock these changes?
Was she receptive?
Did she say anything?
No, no, no, no, no.
Because my wife is from Brooklyn to the fullest.
Okay.
She's not going to give you satisfaction, which I love about her.
I love about her.
Sometimes I'll be like.
I mean, for example, I'll be like baby, look devastating, a total smoke show.
Then wait, I'll be like, is there anything you want to say?
No.
She's like, are you saying that because you want me to say something nice back to you?
Is that what you're saying?
Yes.
Yes, I do.
I do want you to say that.
You look cute.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Every once in a while.
I'll get that.
I'm like, I'm like a camel in the desert for that.
I'm like, please, a little water.
But um, I look, you have to.
She's no BS and you have to prove yourself before you get that kind of like approval from her.
And so what I did was I was like, okay.
I have to stop worrying about whether or not I'm gonna get an attaboy every time I do something around the house.
And it has to be, I have to work out standards for myself, right?
That's what dawned on me.
I was like, I'm doing all these things and nobody cares.
Well, do you care?
I think that's really important.
Yes.
You had to do these things because you wanted to do them for your family, right?
Yes.
You didn't want to do these things for the affirmation, for the recognition.
I wanted to have a role.
I didn't have a role.
I wanted to have a role.
So then I was like, now I'm going to go big.
Yeah.
I was like, I'm going to go bigger.
Right.
So I was I was at retail.
I'm like shopping, getting groceries bulbs, light bulbs, whatever it was you know, and I have enough for the week.
But then I was like, what if we went bigger?
What if I got a Costco membership?
Yeah.
I've always, you know, this is like, this is from the Salvation Army.
You know, like, I'm very, I'm not a, I'm very spin thrift.
But I was like, I'm gonna just show out and I'm gonna ball out a Costco.
What you're saying is not only were you sort of doing, I guess, the minimum, you were like, what if we got more than enough, so we could prevent, you know, running out of the juice or the teepee.
What if I sort of thought ahead which was something you really had been offloading to your wife for your entire marriage?
I mean these things that you're now doing the grocery shopping, you know, the laundry, etc.
These things take time.
They do.
Did you have to sacrifice or give anything up to make space...
No, because it was COVID, there was a writer's strike, then there was an actor's strike.
So I had time.
I found myself with all this time.
And you know what?
I had the time before.
What I learned was I actually did have time to do all these things.
Because now I'm back online with my career, but I still find time to do all these things.
How?
Now that the pandemic is and you are working, what are the ways that you're able to prioritize that?
This work, this labor.
I get up early.
I get up really, really early.
And I started small and then it just had like a V effect, right?
So I get up really early, sometimes 4.30, sometimes 5.
And that's when you can like... throw in the laundry, whatever it is.
You can also have time for yourself.
Let's say you wanted to catch up on some series.
What happens at the end of Stranger Things?
I can watch that unbothered and no one's taking up any of my time.
I needed to figure out time for myself.
Yeah, what if I carve out my time that's separate?
Yes.
So they're not in competition.
Something that you wrote in your book is that you also, you did give up.
You gave up watching sports.
I did, I did.
Listen, listen, I don't suggest this for everybody.
Yeah, but I think it shows.
I think it shows the kind of the extent that you were trying to make this change.
Tell me about that.
Friend, it was bad news.
I had to give up watching the Cowboys.
I know the Cowboys are a hated team.
I didn't know that as a child.
So I'm from Dallas, Texas.
There's no one else to cheer for.
Please leave me alone, okay?
I'm laughing, but I have no idea.
Oh, okay.
OK, OK, good.
You're not into sports.
Good.
So this is all right.
So anyway, that's the culture in Texas.
And I would dutifully watch the Cowboys.
And it was a one sided relationship because they were losing all the time.
Then I realized I'm always so mad about the Cowboys and I'm watching them relentlessly.
Right.
If you think about it, OK, there's a game is about three hours long.
So if you multiply three times 17 and don't forget if they get into the playoffs, it's another couple of weeks.
Three times 17, 51.
That's 51 hours.
Right.
51 hours is you for two days and a little bit parked on the couch.
And I was like, what if because they're just going to blow it and they always do.
I just don't watch.
So I didn't.
I didn't.
And you know what?
They still lost.
They were doing horribly without me.
They were doing horribly without me.
And I was like, I found myself with all this time.
I found myself with time to do chores and also do fun activities with my family.
To change that about yourself, I think is representative of these maybe smaller or more quotidian, more everyday changes really, actually kind of reconstructing the framework of your identity.
Is that too dramatic to say?
No, I don't think that's too dramatic to say.
And I love your pronunciation.
The word quotidian was right on the money.
Thank you.
That's how it's said.
Yeah.
Anyway, yes, yes, it did.
It changed me little by little, though.
So, I mean, I almost think of it like as like a, you know, like a stalactite changes.
Yeah.
But just drops of water.
That's that's how slowly the increments were.
And it was slow until it was it was small, small, small until it was big.
We'll be back in just a moment.
Stay with us.
How did these changes you were making, which were small but which added up?
How did this affect your dynamic with your wife?
I mean, were the Esther Perel books still on the nightstand?
Oh, yeah.
They're still there.
They're still there.
But what did change was the tension lessened in the house because she wasn't having to think about everything all the time all at once, like that wasn't her job.
She wasn't the air traffic controller.
She once was right.
So i'd opened up another lane and, and that's um, i could feel.
I could feel that things were easing up.
Do you remember a specific moment where where you really saw that kind of ease?
Or like where you saw the weight lifted off her shoulders?
Do you remember a specific moment where that hit you?
Yeah, it's definitely going to be when there was a moment when I felt like I found my role, right?
My son had like spilled some OJ on the table and then I was like, go run, get a paper towel.
And like we were out of paper towels, paper towels, right.
So i was like, and then um, my wife was like great, i guess i'll go to the bodega and get more.
And then my son was like no, daddy has all these paper towels in the garage.
Daddy gets all the paper towels.
Yeah, the costco membership.
So it was like, and he said something like like about.
Like, like daddy gets all the stuff.
Like daddy gets all the stuff you know.
Like oh sorry oh, Why is that hitting you?
Why is that making you emotional?
Because that means, that means that you belong, you know?
So that's really great.
So it was like, sorry.
No, I'm hot.
Do not.
This is a show for crying.
This is a show for crying.
Well, I, yeah.
Good.
Good.
And what did your, and what did your bring?
Stay in that moment with me.
He says that you run and get the paper towel.
What do you see when you look at your wife?
What are you seeing?
I'm seeing that she's, like, she's recognizing that and taking it in.
And, you know, she's like, that's right, you know?
And like she'll bust my beans about it, but she loves the fact that like we're never out of these staples anymore.
And because I've thought ahead and somebody else doesn't have to do it and I could see that she was her face, like we could go back to lunch, and she was like brightening.
I could see her brightening and um, you know and, and when, when a little kid is like just tells you what it is because they, they have no reason why, it feels really good.
So it was nice to just, like in that moment, realize that like okay, i've solidified a role.
All i have to do is like, keep doing what i'm doing, and and and, and that's it really.
You know?
So um yeah, it was cool.
Oh, don't minimize it.
No, no, no.
Do not apologize.
Please don't apologize.
Like what is what was your place?
What is your place?
What's the place that you've made for yourself?
My place now is just is being that guy.
That guy.
It's like chief of operations.
You know, I love it.
I love a good COO.
And a partner.
You are a partner.
And a partner, yes.
A partner in this, because the partner is going to think ahead and make sure that you have the materials and the resources that you need, that we need to run this house.
In the darkest period, your wife had been coming to you and saying, like, I am alone.
Yeah.
And in a way, you were also, you were alone.
You were alone in your own way.
Yeah.
Now does it feel like the two of you are in this together?
Oh, we share a lot.
Yeah.
Yes.
It does feel now that we share more.
And I try my best to open, like, my... my career up to her and to share more things about it.
Like, I'll just tell her what I'm feeling.
I'll tell her, like, if I got something, if I got a part, if I didn't get a part, you know?
It's not a secret.
It's not shameful.
And it's weird.
She'll be like, oh, they suck.
Don't worry about that.
You know, it's their loss.
I was like, oh, my God.
Like, why didn't I do this before?
Like, in a way, making these changes at home.
Mm-hmm, opened up something emotionally between the two of you two.
How?
Tell me about that, because even though I think I understand to buy paper towel in bulk, I'm like okay, but how is that opening up new emotional pathways between you?
Explain that.
I think, because Otherwise I would just be a self-interested, solipsistic freak.
That was, like you know, after she'd done all these things to make our life easier, right.
If she'd made dinner or helped the kids with their homework, you know, saw to her elder parents.
And after all that, I'm like, you know, I'm just... I feel like... You don't support me enough.
You know, like...
She wouldn't want to hear about it, you know?
But now that things have changed...
She sees that I do care, that I do want to make sure that her life is a little easier, that our going is a little easier in the home.
She has room, emotional room, to really listen to what I'm saying about and I feel safe in telling her.
And you know what?
She feels safe in telling me what she's up to, all her worries about her career or just worries about her life.
She's sharing a lot more.
And it feels like we hang out now, and I also never took advantage of the fact that I have comedian hours right.
So I'm like, and she's a professor, and I'm like, do you want to get lunch later?
Sure.
So fun.
Yeah.
You want to just like, whatever, let's cut it.
Like we'll play, we're always saying, let's play hooky.
Wow.
So there's so much to do in the city.
So I'm like, let's get lunch here.
Let's go to this museum.
Let's do this and that.
I always say like, it feels like we're dating.
And then she's like, yeah, doesn't it?
It feels like we're dating.
That's really nice.
Yeah.
She's...
Definitely had a pivot herself from all this.
You know, she goes out with her friends.
She goes out solo some nights.
I think that we have better chemistry than we did before.
Wow.
Like physical chemistry.
Physical chemistry.
Heck yeah.
Emotional chemistry.
Definitely.
Because once, I mean, it's, you have to think about your hierarchy of needs.
Mm-hmm.
Once those are all satisfied, you feel secure.
And then I found with my wife this is a control group of N equals one, but she's definitely more down to play, down for sex, down to smash, whatever the kids are calling it these days.
So it's great.
And you can feel the relief.
It doesn't feel like as much of like a chore that she feels, you know, like before sex was like, we need to do this thing because we are not connecting and we are in this relationship. sure yeah and this is more like these days it just feels more fun more spontaneous huh and um i can tell that there's less of a burden she's not think she's she's often she she's a very brilliant person so she has a lot going on in her mind and like she's not thinking about other things we're both more in the moment in the moment and more intimate yeah i'm recalling early in our conversation when you talked about you were the fun parent yes and your wife was the fun sponge i wonder how that dynamic also shifted once you started doing more work doing the work i think listen my wife is always gonna be she's always a baddie from brooklyn that doesn't she does not care if you like her or not But I feel like this.
Like, I now take the fun that I had with my kids and I direct it at my wife.
So like because what I was trying to do was compete with her, instead of what got me to the point in my relationship that you know, like the fact that I was able to court her, marry her, these things, it was because she was always like you, were so fun.
You go on the best dates.
I was like I took her to like I think, on like the second date, I took her to like this spot on 57th Street that looks out at the or no, 56th Street, excuse me, that looks out at the 59th Street Bridge.
I mean, no boy's ever done that for me.
What the heck?
Oh, my God.
Listen, when you're not... I don't look like Idris Elba.
You got to work with what you have.
So if you know romantic spots, I'm bringing it back because that's what I use to, like, woo her.
Yeah.
You know?
I mean, I just knew about, like I was like oh, you want to see where Marilyn Monroe and Arthur Miller lived.
Right this way?
I mean, Would you say though, that you've like become less fun around your kids?
I mean because I will say also, if you're enforcing bedtime which it sounds like you probably are now, I do, I do.
That's not so quote-unquote fun.
It hurts my heart.
Yeah, it hurts my heart a little bit, like my son has maybe like 70 stuffies.
It's the cutest thing ever.
Um, he has seals and sea lions.
There is a distinction totally.
The the ears give it away totally, but like saying good night to him and then like bless his little heart.
He'll be like i have questions.
You know, you're just like.
At some point you're like I have to close the door now.
Like, you need to go to bed.
And doing that to him, it hurts me.
It hurts me deeply, but it's because I just want him to like me.
What you're pointing out is that this sort of fun, this identity as the fun parent, came from a place of insecurity.
Oh, yeah.
And now...
And security, in fact, about your place in your family, right?
It's like, well, what am I going to be?
I'm not home.
I'll be fun.
When I'm home, I'll be fun.
I'll be fun.
We'll do a fun trip.
I'll be fun.
And now that you feel more secure about your place in your family, you don't need to be fun all the time.
I don't need to be fun all the time.
Is that a relief?
It's a big relief.
It's a relief and a sadness because you said it's also tough for you to put your kid to bed.
So it's both?
It's both.
It's both.
I mean, and look, look, fun one comes out.
F1 comes out a lot.
Of course.
How could it not?
We went to Fair Rocks.
What is that one where it's like a little gym where you're jumping around on trampolines?
Yes.
My sciatica.
I didn't care.
I was going crazy, you know, because I think there is a part of me that I just need to recognize, that is this like child that will never grow old.
But, you know, I need to make friends with it.
I need to make peace with it and know that it's not going to drive the car.
Right.
And that's that's basically what it is.
I just stop that and let the other people um, i guess more adult voices up there, you know take charge.
Yeah, i want to end with a pop quiz.
Oh boy oh, i didn't study, i'm not.
That's why it's called pop jordan.
Yes, how much toilet paper is in the house right now?
How much toilet paper is in the house right now?
We got about, we got about 10 rolls okay, like that.
Next question how much milk?
How much milk is in the house?
We got three liters of milk.
So what I learned was you can put milk in the freezer as well.
Oh, didn't know that.
Yes.
Stick with me.
What about your kids' dentist appointments?
Are they up to date?
They're up to date.
Tooth cleaning was done in October.
Love it.
So we got another six months to go for another tooth cleaning.
And shoe size, both kids.
Shoe size.
My son is a size four and my daughter is a size seven.
Yeah!
Oh, my God.
My heart was beating so hard.
You did it.
No, and this is what I will say.
Like, you know, how many years ago, what, like four years ago when you started this journey?
Yes.
Could you have answered any of those questions?
Not a one.
Not a one.
No, no, no, no, no.
Yeah.
But you got to take these things seriously a little bit.
You know, it's hard for a comic to do any of that.
This interview, this is the most serious I've been.
Years and years.
I appreciate you being serious and funny with me, Jordan Carlos.
Thank you for this conversation.
Thank you.
Jordan Carlos' book is called Chore Play, the marriage-saving magic of getting your head out of your ass.
It comes out February 10th.
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis.
This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg.
It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant.
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez, and we had studio support from Alicia Baitube.
Original music in this episode by Amin Sahota and Dan Powell.
Dan also composed our theme music.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin.
And by the way, I have seven rolls of toilet paper in my house.
