Listen, I love startups, but anyone who spent the majority of their career in startup world will tell you it is not for the faint of heart.
Jobs as startups are amazing learning experiences, especially if you're highly adaptable and you love wearing many hats.
But for some PMs, the startup life may not be the best fit long term.
If you're more drawn to structure over flexibility, slower over faster development time, and consistency over unpredictability, you might be drawn to a career in big tech.
The question is, is big tech really a better fit for you?
My guest today is Malika Hope, Director of Product Management at Spotify.
Like many of us, Malika cut her teeth in the startup world before transitioning to product leadership roles for household names like Intuit and the platform formerly known as Twitter.
Now that she spent several years in the big tech landscape and hired many product managers into it, she's gained some really valuable Intel for startup PMs interested in making the switch.
We're about to dig into the culture shocks to prepare yourself for, the transferable skills to highlight in your interview and what to expect during your salary negotiation.
Let's jump in. Welcome back listeners.
I'm Hannah Clark with the Product Manager.
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And today we're speaking with Malika Hope.
Malika, thank you so much for being here.
Thanks for having me.
All right. Well, we're going to kick it off the way we always kick things off.
Can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you ended up where you are today?
Yeah, yeah. I actually studied music in college and then went to business school and then became a chartered accountant.
So it was like a very untraditional way of breaking into product.
But I think people of like my generation, which makes me sound super old, but like people of like my generation, we all got into product in weird ways because it wasn't a traditional career path at the time.
So I got my first role in products at an accounting software company that was more of a startup kind of environment.
I was there for a few years.
Then I went into it for about seven years.
Then I was at Twitter for a couple years.
Don't ask me how that ended.
And now I'm at Spotify.
So I've been like run the gamut.
I've done B2B SAS. I've done B2B to C, I've done B2C.
I've done subscriptions.
I've done ads. I've done centralized product.
I've done international markets.
All sorts of different stuff.
I guess I'm probably what you'd call a generalist and definitely have more of a like businessy -minded view of product work rather than a tech first view.
But yeah, I guess that's kind of my career very quickly.
Today, we're going to be focusing on the transition from a startup environment to a larger established tech company, which is something you know a little bit about.
So to start us off, what would you consider to be the pros and cons of being a PM in a big tech company versus a startup?
Yeah, I guess so to start with like the big tech company and some of these are generalizations because the companies will like never operate exactly the way you think they will.
Resources and support generally do come with a larger tech company, although frankly, given the climate right now, like larger tech companies don't seem like the wealth and they have the wealth of resources that they might have had like four or five years ago.
But generally, that is something you can expect.
They will almost always be more structured, which if you are someone like me, I said I'm an accountant, like I like a structured environment.
I like to know who is responsible for what I like to understand the processes that I'm going to follow.
So if you operate well in that way, definitely a large company could be more beneficial for you.
What I have found particularly in the last couple years when I was going through a job search for my newest role, having the brand recognition of a large company can be really useful to you long term and your career.
It's something that people don't talk about as much, but it's definitely super valuable.
And similarly, the networks that I was able to build in those companies, of course, you can network in startups as well.
But I did find myself going back to a lot of my large company network as I was doing that.
And then, of course, compensation and perks do tend to be at least more secure at a larger company than a smaller one.
But in a startup, there's also tons of really valuable pieces.
Like I when I was at a startup, I was the only product manager in the entire business supporting like six different product lines so low as my first product role.
So, like, it was hard, it was incredibly difficult.
But I learned how to talk to engineers, I learned how to lead meetings, I created processes, and structures, like the leadership experience that you can gain in those type of environments is incredibly valuable.
You get a ton of visibility with leadership, generally, especially if it's like an earlier stage startup.
So that piece really like learning how to lead and operate and step into that type of a role, I think really set me up for success for the later part of my career, which was is a lot of big company, like based on what I already described to you.
So in terms of mindset, how should product managers adjust when moving from a smaller, more agile team to a more established company with like a more complex systems and teams?
I think a lot of it comes down to mindset.
So if you worked in startups and want to go to a big company, first having the attitude and mindset of this is going to be something different.
And that's okay. And I'm going to embrace it.
If you go from a startup to a large company and expect things to operate in the same way, you're not going to have a good time, you're going to get frustrated, you're going to hit roadblocks.
And this honestly goes for like any type of career transition, any type of new role.
It may not be exactly what you want.
The environment might not be ideal, but there's always something to learn from it.
Maybe you prefer the startup environment, but you're going to a large company to kind of round out your experience.
That's okay. Just be prepared that that is what's actually going to be happening.
You might have to think longer term.
You might not see as many short term successes, short term wins.
You likely won't have as immediate of an impact.
Again, that's okay.
And I would also embrace the change.
So embrace the processes, embrace the decision -making tools that you'll learn.
A lot of those large companies have their own research methods.
They have training for product managers.
Absorb as much of that as you can.
Take advantage of that wealth of resources and knowledge.
Network as much as you can, participate in an ERG, understand the systems.
Yeah, I would use that advice for almost any role, but specifically here, take what you can from it and embrace the difference rather than trying to force a work environment that may not make sense.
Yeah, totally. Like a circle in a square peg kind of thing.
Let's talk a little bit about stakeholder management.
So product managers at larger companies, there's a different kind of stakeholder dynamics to navigate versus a startup where you've got a smaller team.
So how do you manage some of the expectations that align those different teams when you're working with a larger organization versus a startup?
Any time I think about stakeholder management and how to ensure your voice is heard, ensure people have the right information, ensure folks are on the same page.
It's always going to come back to data and the quality of data that you're using, especially if you're trying to push a project forward or get something done.
The most effective argument, I want to say 100 % of the time, but I'm sure someone will point out at a time that it wasn't 100 % of the time, but it is having great quality data.
It's having great quality user research and great quality metrics behind the argument that you're trying to make.
And that should shut down any issues, and that should pierce through a complex organizational structure.
It shouldn't matter if the data is as compelling as you think it is.
And if it's not, then I would work on gathering that data before you try to navigate some of those dynamics.
I would also really lean on your team and the other folks around you, like your manager.
But in my first role in a larger company, out of a startup environment, I was really grateful that I had a manager who reached out to people proactively and was like, I have this new PM, Malika, you want a meter.
If I visited the office that he was operating at, which is a different office, he would set up meetings for me, or he would tell me specific people to make time with to build those types of relationships.
So find an advocate or find a sponsor within the company that can help you break through the noise and understand who the key folks that you need to know are.
And that can break down that corporate structure to you.
There's always someone that wants to help.
There's always someone that wants to be a part of your success story.
So find those folks and always ground yourself in data.
And I'd say those tools can always lead to success.
Really practical tips.
And I imagine that breaking down and getting a closer relationship with that management structure can help to speed up decision making and your ability to react quickly, which can be a bit of a challenge in a larger organization versus a more agile startup where things can happen all in a dime.
Do you have any other tips for speeding up the pace of change or the pace of iterations when you're dealing with more levels of stakeholders and more levels of approval?
I mean, even in a large organization that has more stakeholders, more levels of approval, etc., there's usually a silver bullet kind of thing.
There's usually ways to navigate through them.
And that's, again, where having that strong network can come in handy.
But again, I would kind of go back to what I said earlier about embracing the change.
If you are used to a startup environment, you go to a big company and you're like, man, I want to make decisions as quickly as I used to.
I want things to operate differently.
You're going to just end up being frustrated and hitting roadblocks constantly.
So it may be time to actually think like, okay, I'm working at a slower pace here.
What are the things that I can gain from that process or gain from this bureaucratic environment that I wouldn't have otherwise, instead of just constantly feeling that frustration?
There's more to product, I can't believe I'm saying this out loud, there's more to product than just delivering as quickly as possible all the time.
Usually those processes exist for a reason.
And so it can be worth taking the time to really understand why.
And you could decide after this isn't for me.
I don't want to work like this anymore.
I prefer an environment where I'm just executing, getting stuff done, and that is fine.
But that mindset shift, I think, will really help you set up for success.
And one other practical thing I would say is, if you have a longer -term project or you have a project that is going to take longer through approvals, et cetera, piece it apart into short -term goals and smaller pieces.
And then maybe you can get some of that gratification.
And so if you're thinking about it sprint by sprint or whatever it is within a larger structure, hopefully that, while operating in that larger space, can still help you get those feelings of, okay, I am delivering, I am getting stuff done, I am seeing success in shorter timeframes, even operating within that larger
space. Yeah, you're echoing a lot of the opinions.
We had Akash Gupta a little while ago on talking about more of a feature factory, but his point was sometimes you just have to embrace what is the role, what is your job, just look at the environment and how can you really excel within the parameters of the job that you applied for, not the job that you
wish that it was. So yeah, I think there's a certain zen to that for sure.
Everything is short -term, right?
You don't love the role instead of thinking, how can I...
Well, maybe you can fix it.
Maybe you can make things better, but really being in that headspace of, okay, I'm not going to be here forever.
I do have plans to move somewhere next, but what can I gain from this?
You should always be in that mindset of, what can I take away from this experience, even if it's one that I hate.
Think about what stories you can tell about it in your next interview process.
If you have that type of an attitude, nothing will feel...
Nothing should feel that negative all the time.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
And actually it kind of sort of echo that sentiment.
If we think about pulling what we can from our startup experience, if we're currently in a smaller organization that's kind of on its way up, what are some of those skills and experiences that we should really take advantage of that are transferable when we decide to move to a larger tech organization?
I mean, the number one skill I always look for when I'm hiring PMs is communication, verbal communication, written communication.
Can you talk to an executive?
Can you speak concisely?
That is just as valuable in a startup as it is in a large company.
Honestly, I think a lot of the skills are quite transferable, but that one is obviously the biggest, or at least in my head.
I mentioned before how you can gain that type of leadership experience in a startup environment.
Some of them are more casual, but you're still likely working with more executive level folks than you might at a large business.
When I was in a startup environment and I was meeting with the owner and the VP fairly regularly, when I was in a large company and had to meet with SVPs and even with a CEO, it wasn't quite as intimidating because I was used to operating with a person that controlled everything.
And so that's definitely one.
The PM craft is the PM craft, right?
You learn how to work with engineers, you learn how to work with data scientists, you learn how to work with designers, et cetera, et cetera, assuming you have all those resources in the startup environment.
So that really shouldn't change.
Honestly, I think so many of the skills are the same.
I think we almost overthink it with, okay, it's a big environment.
Things are going to be so different.
Processes will be different, but great product management is great product management wherever you are and whatever you're working on.
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But I'm glad that you brought up your perspective as someone who's done the hiring before because I think that that's something that a lot of folks are going to be interested in is how to stand out among other candidates, especially if they're kind of coming from mainly a startup background and trying
to transition to big tech.
What are some of the other things that you look for in a candidate that kind of show that that person might excel in this environment and they might be a good fit?
If you're at the interview stage, you can assume they saw something about you that was interesting to them.
And so, again, like, I don't know if the startup to big company is so much the question is, as like general guidance around hiring and interviews, but like, think about the specific role.
Think about exactly what they've stated that they're looking for, do as much research as you can, there's something that they needed, maybe they want someone to switch things up because they feel like things have gotten too bureaucratic.
Maybe they are looking to have the team move faster.
Maybe they want someone that's comfortable doing their own research because resources are tight and you don't get a researcher.
So like, try to find out exactly what it was about you that made you interesting to that company.
And I would lean into that and really focus on that during the interview process.
Things like, you know, being able to demonstrate that you can think longer term and that you, even if things were moving faster, you were able to set longer term goals and achieve against them that you have that type of patience.
But I think a lot of it is expressing that desire for growth.
Yeah, I'm used to a startup environment.
These are all the skills that I've gained from that, all the things I described, like great leadership skills, I'm a strong communicator, etc.
Now I am looking to expand, I have that growth mindset, I'm looking to broaden my experience, I'm looking to try something new, and just explain that, you know, you understand things are going to be different, but these are all the reasons why those transferable skills will set you up for success.
So I think it's a big combination of like, doing the right research, and understanding what they're looking for.
And then just being able to tailor your experience towards that, which again, is the advice I would give anyone looking for a job, not even necessarily the startup to big company, I don't think it has to be different.
Okay, I'm gonna kind of go into a little bit more tricky territory, and we're gonna talk about compensation a little bit.
Okay, it's something everybody wants to know about.
Naturally, compensation works differently at big tech than startups.
And it's one of those things, no matter what your job you're applying for, if there's going to be some red tape, there's going to be some plain chicken.
What are some of your tips as far as negotiating compensation for folks who they're really interested in the role, but they also don't want to come off as too demanding or undersell themselves?
Do as much research as you can.
And this is, again, anytime you're applying for a new job, find someone that worked for the company or works for the company, talk to your friends that are in big tech, find a network of folks and reach out to them.
People love talking about themselves, their careers.
People love giving advice, generally, you might find some folks that don't, but a lot of people, especially people in product, we love to talk about ourselves, we love to give advice on how to be successful.
The best advice for our negotiation is finding someone that has been through that process, or that has gone through something similar and can give you an idea of what realistic numbers look like or what you can expect.
Big company environments, generally, folks say that the compensation is better, it's definitely more stable.
Startup opportunities can have a stronger upside.
Big companies are looking for more stability.
So you want to understand those pieces going into it.
Base salary -wise, you may be looking at a higher number with a large company, maybe not, like it really depends on the funding and the stage of the startup and all of that.
But honestly, on this one, there's no magic tool that you can come up with.
I really think it has to come down to research, use levels, like find data, because that's the best part of these large companies, they have that available.
You should be able to find that easily.
And then you can use that as a base for your negotiation conversations.
I love the actionable descriptive tips.
I think that's the best way to do it.
Okay, so if we're talking about other ways of functioning in a bigger organization, what are some of the other unexpected ways that going into another organization is going to impact the way that you work?
So when we think about user needs or product roadmaps or long -term strategy, does anything else come to mind?
Maybe a mindset shift that's required, maybe some advanced resourcing that you should take advantage of before you dive into working with a larger scale of everything.
To be honest, I don't know that there is...
And again, I think this can be another example where folks may overthink it.
At the end of the day, good data is good data.
Talking to customers is talking to customers.
You will have to likely adapt to the business.
You may have to change your type of testing style if you're working with a different type of customer, whether it's A -B testing to customer interviews.
That, again, would be more dependent on the type of business and product you're selling than if it's a large or small company.
But I think product roadmaps, if you are managing a similar size team, the roadmap doesn't have to look that different.
It may be at a large company that it's connected to a broader organization or a bigger fee, or you have to fit it in a style that you're not used to.
But I think it can be dangerous to think, I need to grow out my camera craft and really completely do something new because I'm in a different style of organization where the reason people are like, they might be over is because they find something valuable with the way you operate and the way you think.
And so, like, keeping that confidence that you know what you're doing, but again, the data, the data, the customer, the customer, you don't have to like, get your draw up, playbook.
I would start there and make more small adaptations as you learn what makes $75 in that new company rather than thinking there's like fundamental differences in some of those core craft pieces.
Before we wrap up, I would love to know, first of all, if you have any final advice, anything that you wanted to add that you think would be really valuable for folks who are kind of interested in this kind of transition, particularly if you had any learning experiences in your own transition that you
felt were really like a great illustration of kind of that mindset shift and things that folks can take away.
Yeah, I mean, when I transitioned, I didn't even think about it.
I didn't have that realization, oh, I'm moving from this type of company to another one.
And so there was definitely a lot of learnings that I had to go through and a lot of challenges.
But I would say this has to be something that you want, embrace the change, embrace the discomfort.
That's a huge part of product management being uncomfortable in situations.
So really embrace that and try to make the most of whatever environment you're in, go in both eyes open.
But also, I strongly recommend getting both types of experience.
People ask me all the time, I do a lot of mentorship, should I go to the startup?
Should I be targeting big companies?
I will always say the best PMs have experience with both types of environments, because I think the learnings you get from each can be invaluable.
I think you will after getting a bit of experience at each, identify which one makes sense for you.
Big companies work best for me.
I really like the structure.
I like to know what's coming.
There's enough chaos in large companies without going to a startup where the chaos can increase even more.
So I know that that's what's right for me.
But it's really, and I think I've emphasized this through this entire conversation, it's embracing that change, embracing that discomfort and falling back on and remembering why you're there in the first place, like what those core skills are, those pieces shouldn't change.
And so go into those situations with confidence.
And it may be painful at first, but you'll, it'll ultimately be beneficial for you.
Absolutely. And at the very least, it's a learning experience, right?
You learn a little bit more about yourself along the way.
And Malika, thank you so much for joining us.
So where can people follow your work online?
I really need to get a website set up because I get this question a lot, but you can absolutely find me on LinkedIn and I love to chat to young PMs and I do a bit of consulting as well.
And so feel free to reach out if you want to talk more.
Yeah. Thanks so much.
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