You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Niu Honglin.
Today, we're bringing a new special series on Zhuangzi, one of the most influential philosophers of ancient China.
A new episode on this new series.
In the podcast program Sage and Youth Debating Zhuangzi's Tao, we explore some of the most fascinating stories from Zhuangzi and reflect on what they reveal about how we live, think and choose today.
For this episode, we bring you the story of Hui Zi Xiang Liang, a story that inspires us to ask is true freedom only found outside fame and office?
Please enjoy the story as well as the following debate.
Over two millennia ago, the landscape of ancient China was like a chessboard of warring kingdoms.
A time when the clangor of swords was as common as the whisperings of wisdom.
Amidst of this cacophony of power struggles, there emerged a philosopher named Zhuangzi, whose thoughts danced to the rhythm of a different tune.
Uninterested in the seductive dance of power, he found himself the unlikely target of a royal invitation.
So when the king of Chu sent two officials to offer him the position of the kingdom's prime minister, their proposal hardly seemed to stir the philosopher's peaceful state of mind.
I've heard tales of a sacred turtle cherished by your king.
Enjoying a life for over 3000 years.
The turtle has now passed away and is enshrined posthumously in your temple.
Your king keeps it treasured in a delicate bamboo case covered with precious silk.
Tell me, would this venerable creature have preferred its eternal rest in honor, worshipped by an entire kingdom, or would it rather stay alive dragging its tail through dirty mud?
The officials found themselves ensnared in Zhuangzi's paradox, unable to craft an answer that could sway the philosopher's heart.
With a knowing smile, Zhuangzi declared, I too shall live in the mud, dragging my tail through.
Despite Zhuangzi's aversion of political life, his good friend Hui Zi had embraced it.
A few days before He had accepted the offer to be the prime minister of the mighty kingdom of Liang.
Soon, word of Zhuangzi's visit reached Huizi through whispers of concern.
Zhuangzi must have come for your position.
Don't be silly.
Friendship pales in the shadow of power.
No one can resist fame and fortune.
Huizi got worried, so he sent someone to look for Zhuangzi.
Yet after three sleepless days and nights... there was still no trace of Zhuangzi wheresoever.
To Hui Zi's surprise, it was Zhuangzi who appeared at his doorstep, seeking not power, but his old friend.
I heard you were scouring the capital for me.
It must be out of sheer longing for your dear friend.
There could not possibly be another reason for you to put in such effort.
Zhuangzi jested, a twinker of mirth in his eyes.
Hui Zi...
Red-faced and flustered, Korone started to agree.
Well, sure.
I do miss you much, and that's why I was looking for you.
Sorry for keeping you waiting.
Actually, the reason I'm here a bit later than scheduled is because I saw something quite special on my way here.
Huiz got intrigued and started to listen even more attentively.
You must have heard about the mysterious bird called Yuanchu, right?
A creature of such grace, it rivals the phoenix.
Its journey from the south to the North Sea is nothing short of legendary.
The bird rests on nothing but the noble phoenix tree, eats nothing but the exquisite fruit of the lian and drinks nothing but the sweet water from the purest springs.
On my way here, fortune smiled upon me, for I crossed paths with the Yuanchi, its elegance slicing through the sky.
But then, a jarring shoe shattered the piece.
Guess what?
Huizi, torn into the tale, asked, What happened next?
Well, it was a mere owl, attempting to scare the Yuanchu away.
The poor thing just found a half-rotten rat And as Yuan Chu approached, it assumed that Yuan Chu was after his meager meal.
Huizi's cheeks flushed with embarrassment, his gaze falling away.
Zhuangzi's smile widened knowingly.
So, my friend, in your illustrious position within Liang, were you trying to shoo me away?
One man's sustenance becomes another's venom.
The philosopher's divergence between Hui Zi and Zhuang Zi unfolds as a captivating tableau illustrating the perpetual dance between engagement in the worldly arena and an embrace of existential nihilism.
Hui Zi, the embodiment of conventional wisdom, champions the virtues of political engagement and the tangible benefits of practical solutions.
In stark contrast, Drance revels in the art of detachment, finding solace and satisfaction in what the world deems useless.
To him, the pursuit of material success and the accolades of social acclaim hold no allure, for true fulfillment lies beyond the ephemeral charms of fame, fortune.
Another reminder is that haste in judgment obscures the underlying truths of human fulfillment.
We should pause, reflect and delve deeper, recognizing that the essence of understanding resides not in the superficial but in the profound exploration of divergent paths and perspectives.
And that concludes our tale for the day.
But our journey doesn't end here.
We'll delve deeper, bringing the ancient and the modern as we shift to the vibrant voices of today.
Young thinkers will soon take the stage explore, question and even contradict each other, discovering how these age-old ideas can still illuminate our contemporary lives.
Here comes the debate.
What's up everyone?
This is Yushan from Roundtable.
Hey guys, this is Tianyu with Sightline Story.
So I think The story conveys the core philosophical ideas of Zhuangzi, which is the art of detachment.
For someone to find comfort and freedom and happiness in one's own spiritual world.
I think that's what Zhuangzi has been trying to emphasize through his story.
And in the meantime, he believes that the pursuit of worldly achievements, such as becoming a governmental official and receiving societal renowns, has little appeal to him.
So what's your take on his value, Tianyu?
I think from my perspective, I really appreciate Zhuangzi's outlook on life.
Oh, really?
When comparing himself to the noble bird Yuan Chu and comparing Hui Zi to an owl who is chasing after the position of a prime minister, he expressed his indifference to the so-called worldly pursuits like money and fame.
He thinks they are worthless because, you know, from a worldly point of view, money and fame are what we have been chasing throughout our lives.
It can be synonymous with success.
But from Jones's perspective, he doesn't think money and fame can really stand for success.
Right.
Because they're just a flesh in a pan.
You can't take it to the tomb and everybody is going to die one day.
Oh, wow.
Right?
If you think of it that way, then yeah, I mean, I can't deny the fact that everybody is going to die one day.
Yeah, of course.
Okay, just keep going, please.
We're all mortal.
And yeah, they are actually barriers to finding your true self and what is really important to you in your life.
So you may ask what kinds of things are really valuable to him and, as you mentioned detachment, inner peace and spiritual freedom are of utmost importance to Zhuangzi.
And in another story of him he compared himself to Dapeng, a colossal bird that can easily fly over tens of thousands of miles above the sky with just a fling of his wings.
Yeah, an ancient giant bird as big as an airplane, even bigger, I would imagine.
A lot bigger.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, by making such a comparison, he expressed his desire for spiritual freedom and a limitless life.
Although we know that we can't be a Dapeng, we can still be as free and achieve lofty goals where sky is the limit.
Oh yeah, that sounds very concrete because in a lot of John's stories, for multiple times he made this metaphor of comparing him with a bird-like creature from ancient times, implicating that he wants to be as free as a bird flying in the sky where there's no limit or rules of the human world that can bind him or limit his power or imagination.
And actually I was just reading about this because Zhuangzi's idea is essentially based on the Taoism of China.
And he even put an elevation of the Taoism's philosophy which, based on the ways or the roles of the nature and Zhuangzi, elevate that to the abandoning of the self, where he as a person becomes a free soul of a different creature in various forms.
In presenting his ideas,
Well, I think that's really interesting.
Yeah, me too.
So after talking about his philosophical thoughts about his pursuit of freedom and inner peace.
So how to achieve this state of mind?
Zhuangzi thinks that we need to follow the rules of nature and achieve harmony with nature, and also treat everything else in your life with an open mind.
For example, life and death, heaven and earth, whether something's true or false.
He thinks we need to have a critical mind of all these things.
And as he has mentioned numerous times in his books, the ultimate goal of him is to achieve unity with other creatures and beings in his life.
And to take an example, in his classical debate with Hui Zi, his friend, his so-called friend He tried to comprehend the feelings and existence of a fish, while his friend Huizi argues that we cannot understand what the fish is thinking about.
Well, we are not fish essentially, but he argues that we have the ability, we have the potential to understand them.
And that's the goal we need to achieve in our life to achieve harmony with other creatures and beings.
So yeah, now I understand your point, Tianyu.
And well, it is true that Zhengzi embodies such an idea of detachment and escaped from worldly concerns, etc.
But to be honest, I think Such an approach may not be practical, especially in modern days.
Really?
Yeah, like how can you truly be detached from modern day society?
And also in the world of philosophy.
There is another thinker's perspective that I find to be more applicable, which is the philosophy of ancient Greek philosopher, Aristotle.
Wow, a very well-known one.
And you know what?
The two of them, Aristotle and Zhuangzi.
They're actually from a similar time frame in history as well.
So we see that one in ancient China, the other one in ancient Greece they are both having this very sharp idea on history, how a person should be and how a society should be organized in a certain way, but their ideas are actually quite in contrast.
Here's more details.
When it comes to constructing political order, Aristotle believed that it should be based on reason and virtue, which emphasizes that the purpose of politics is to achieve the common good and ensure the happiness of its citizens.
So in his work politics, Aristotle actually said that the various forms of government and he gave multiple examples, such as monarchy, the Republicanism and democracy and etc.
So all of these forms of government has a realistic power over the governance of the land or the nations, and he argued that the political authority is necessary to, But of course it must be constrained by law and morality.
And then in terms of social roles, Aristotle viewed the society as one organic whole where each person or each citizen within it should fulfill their own specific role and function within that community they belong to.
So in his philosophy the idea of individual virtue and contribution to the society is actually encouraged, because personal good and the common well-being of the whole society are interconnected.
So we see that Zhuangzi, on the other hand, he pursued the like you mentioned, the following of one's natural inclinations, and you know, personal spiritual freedom and etc.
So to him, social structures and such social responsibilities or social roles represent constraints or limitations over one's nature.
So he goes pursuing the natural state and freedom of a person.
So that's where I think it gets really tricky, because a society is composed of so many individuals, and while a few may successfully pursue their own spiritual freedom, it is, on the other hand, precisely the very existence of such political order that allows these people to seek their free will or grab the opportunities of their dreams.
So without the authority or without such a constraints of laws and morality, the society would lose this order and making it impossible for people like Zhuangzi to consistently and stably achieve their personal goals.
So in turn, I think yeah, of course Zhuangzi's philosophy has its merits, but it is not so well situated in today's world.
I think, even though Zhuangzi's school of thought may not be applicable in governing a country or a modern society, still it's very useful in self-reflection cases.
For example, the modern workplace is full of pressure and you're going to easily break down.
Oh yeah, tell me about it.
If you have to deal with this high pressure.
For example, when you lose a job.
We hope it doesn't happen to you or me or anyone that's listening to this show.
Or when you lose kind of an important opportunity like a wage increase or a job promotion or, Instead of being frustrated, we can comfort ourselves with Zhuangzi's thoughts.
We can say to ourselves that money and fame are not that important, at least not as important as you thought.
So instead of getting obsessed with these losses, We could find ways to commune with nature, right?
Maybe to go hiking.
I guess in so many ways that point is indeed shared by many of us, because nowadays young people do have work pressures and sometimes it is indeed helpful when, especially when we're having some mind space and doing meditation and stuff, we just focus on the self or focus on our connection with the environment around us, especially in nature, and kind of readjust our heart and our minds from the worldly concerns that troubles us into just enjoying the very being of yourself, which can indeed be very helpful sometimes.
So yeah, I get your point now, Tianyu, that's...
Very vivid example raised there.
Thank you.
Meanwhile, another curious thing that I noticed in this story is on the haste in judgment.
And that means whether you should go swift when making a decision or not.
Because in the story, upon hearing that Zhuangzi is coming to the state of Liang, oh my gosh, he's going to rob me of my job.
When having this thought, Hui Zi immediately sent people to search for Zhuangzi all over the state.
Well, what's your take on this?
What do you think of his, say, haste in action, Tianyu?
Well, I think the biggest takeaway from this story about this is that we really need to think twice before taking action.
We need to look at the bigger picture of things, of the situation, and really think things through before you really make a move.
And in the case of this story, Hui Zi was too reckless in handling the affair with Zhuang Zi.
If he could take some time to think more about Zhuangzi's intention and to really investigate why he visits Liang.
As his friend, he should have known that Zhuangzi is a person who dislikes money and fame, right?
So, after knowing that there wouldn't be so much embarrassment happening between them if he hadn't beat the Russian, just went there and sent people to catch Zhuangzi.
So take an example.
During World War II, the Nazis quickly occupied large parts of the Soviet Union through blitzes.
But the Soviet Union didn't panic.
The leaders didn't panic.
They took a very defensive strategy and weighed their time.
And they took a war of attrition with the Nazis there.
And finally, they found the right time.
They found their opportunity in the Battle of Stalingrad.
They won the battle with great patience.
And it became the turning point in World War II which finally helped the Allies won the battle over the Nazis.
So you're saying that by not hasting and giving some moments to others, make further decision after an incident happened actually would help with the success eventually?
Yes, that's what I mean.
Okay.
The way I see it is that yeah, in some cases, under some context, that could probably be a way to win.
But In some other cases, when encountering problems, I do believe that one should actually be like Hui Zi be decisive and take actions quick and sharp in order to better deal with the issue.
So I do find it curious that Hui Zi had so little faith in his friendship with Zhuang Zi in the first place and he just simply had to doubt Zhuang Zi's intention on coming to Liang.
But his action of trying to locate Zhuangzi immediately actually demonstrates his decisiveness and determination on keeping his job, which I think, under similar circumstances, we all might do if put onto that same position.
Well, my biggest takeaway from this story is that never be friends with people like Huizi.
And you mentioned that you think Huizi is being very decisive, right?
But from my perspective, this should not be called as being decisive.
This is totally reckless moves for me.
Can you give some explanation on why you think that Huizi is making the right decision?
Oh yeah, have you heard of this phrase in Chinese called 快刀斩论吗?
Yeah.
Which literally means cutting the linen with fast knife skills, indicating that swiftly cutting through complications could be a way of breaking a way out from the complication.
So from my point of view, that's exactly what Hui Zi does.
And some more... modern example of that would be the Bryce Report.
And in case you don't know what the Bryce Report is, it was actually a report compiled by a British committee and was published in 1915, during World War I.
There's a lot of war examples today, obviously.
There's a lot of history.
Oh, yeah.
And This Bryce report actually played a pivotal role in shaping international opinion about the German military back then, particularly regarding their brutal behaviors in Belgium, how they've been cruel and so violent with the people, etc.
So in this report it listed the German war crimes, including the killing of civilians and the destruction of cultural sites etc.
And in the report some of these data, or what the german soldiers actually did, was in fact, um yeah, a bit exaggerated and being made dramatic for, you know, people to just hear and get angry.
And but still it didn't stop the report from being widely publicized and eventually greatly influenced the public perception about the German army.
So it galvanized the anti-German sentiments among the people, which also enhanced the support for the war efforts in Britain and its allies.
And even today it remains to be a significant example of how a quick response on information can have such a big impact over, especially during wartime, when people are fighting towards the high ground of morale and policy.
So yeah, that was exactly when the British people needed some sort of encouragement and hope on seeing justice on their side in the war as well.
So yeah, I definitely see that the timing and the approach of swiftly cutting through complications could definitely be a good way sometimes to break through problems.
Yeah, I get your point.
Taking swift action is important and it can help us solve the problem in a short notice.
But I think, in the cases that you mentioned, I think they're actually based on a lot of calculations and a lot of thinking from the think tank over the general situation of the political and also the economic world.
Right then,
It is after these considerations that they finally made the judgment and they write the report and make the plan.
Yeah, taking swift action is important, but still we need to take into consideration the Every possible factor and the bigger picture and the general situation.
Only after that can we take action.
Yeah, I think that's a fair point raised there Tianyu, because a lot of the times the quick, swift action will work better if it is to fix the timely urgency.
So, depending on the given context and the particular issue, we do need to maintain the right stance first and pan out our detailed plan, based on where we're moving next, in a more comprehensive way, in order to achieve the final goal.
So yes, thank you very much for sharing your perceptions today, Tianyu.
And that brings us to the end of today's discussion.
As we conclude our conversation here, we also want your opinions, or perhaps what lessons did you draw from this story we shared today?
We encourage you to continue this discussion and stay tuned to Sage and Youth debating Zhuangzi's Tao for more thought-provoking topics.
I'm Yushan.
And I'm Tianyu.
We'll see you next time.
That was a debate between Yushan and Tianyu.
If you like the story and want to explore more on this Chinese philosophy, simply search for Sage and Youth Debating Zhuangzi Style on your podcast platform.
And that brings us to the end of today's roundtable.
We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's topics.
Just leave us a comment wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, or send us an email to roundtablepodcasts at qqcom.
I'm Yang Honglin.
Thank you for listening.
Bye-bye.
