Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
I need to ask you something.
When was the last time you said no without feeling guilty about it, or drew a line in the sand, set a boundary and stuck to it, and didn't feel like you were letting someone down.
If that question makes you realize, hmm, it's been way too long, then you are in the right place today because you and I are about to dive head first into the topic of boundaries.
What they are, how to set them, how to stick to them, and most importantly, how to stop feeling guilty or selfish for needing them in the first place.
Boundaries are the most effective way to take back your time and energy and protect your peace and yet, for so many of us, it's one of the hardest things to do.
But by the end of this conversation, you're not only gonna know how to set them, you're gonna realize that any single time you feel overwhelmed or overextended, you don't need a bubble bath, you need better boundaries.
Hey, it's your friend Mel.
I'm so excited that you are here today.
It is always an honor to spend time with you and to be together.
If you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family.
I want to just take a quick moment before we jump into this amazing topic about boundaries and acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that can truly help you create a better life.
And I'm gonna tell you something.
One thing that will help you have a better life is learning how to have better boundaries.
Look, I'm sure you've heard the word a thousand times.
And I've even talked about boundaries before.
I like to remind you that you can be a good person and have a kind heart and still say, absolutely not.
Well, today, you and I are gonna come at boundaries from a completely new angle because Dr.
Pooja Lakshman is here in our Boston podcast studios and she says there are three surprising signs that she sees in her patients day in and day out that indicate no boundaries.
And she's gonna explain exactly what these three signs are, why you need boundaries, how your life is gonna change, and more importantly, how you can get started in creating them today.
In fact, you and I are gonna leave this conversation with a very simple exercise.
I love this thing because you're gonna do it as soon as you're done listening and it's gonna reveal all the moments in the coming week where you do not have a boundary in place, but you need one.
Dr. Pooja Lakshman is a board certified psychiatrist and the author of the best -selling book, Real Self -Care.
She's a professor of psychiatry at George Washington University School of Medicine.
And one more thing, before we stepped into the studio, she said, Mel, after you introduce me, I like to be called Pooja, not Dr.
Pooja, not Dr. Luxon, Pooja.
So Pooja, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.
It is such an honor to be here, Mel.
I am so thrilled that you're here.
And I am very excited to talk to you about your work.
And where I wanna begin is, could you tell the person that's listening what they can expect to change in their life or experience their life differently if they really take to heart everything that you're about to share?
For folks that are listening, I want you to know that it's possible to make a change and that feeling of selfishness or guilt that you get each time you set a boundary that doesn't need to control you, that that feeling actually is not the truth of who you are.
And you're gonna get some skills and tools to take away to really understand how to feel like you have agency in your life.
What does the word agency mean?
So I think of agency as basically the ability to feel like you can solve problems in your life even when there are external constraints, even when your environment is stacked against you that you can take action and that that action will cause change.
That's what agency is and I think that's power.
I have never heard anybody describe it that way.
I'm sitting here with my mouth open for just a second because I hear the word agency a lot and I've never connected the dots between that word and power, but it is true because there are so many times in your life where you do feel like you're overwhelmed by everything and you have no power.
And I know we're gonna dig deep into two words that you talked about.
You feel selfish or guilty.
And I love that. I love that that's what you're going to experience is access to this power.
Already, already Dr.
Lakshman is dropping the knowledge.
So I saw this article that you wrote where you said that, I want to get the quote correct, you said that real self care is not about a bubble bath.
Can you unpack that for us and talk about how the act of self care has now become a new form of us shaming ourselves?
So this came to me from my patients, really.
The patient that, every patient really that comes in and says, Dr.
Lakshman, I'm stressed out, I'm burnt out, I'm not eating well, I'm not sleeping well.
And I feel like it's my fault because I have the meditation app, I have the yoga membership.
I know I'm supposed to be doing these things, but I can't do it.
And I say to my patients, look, this isn't your fault.
This isn't about willpower.
This isn't about being lazy.
It's actually much bigger than that.
We live in a country that still doesn't have federally mandated paid parental leave.
Half of American workers can't take a paid sick day.
Half of American people are living in what's called childcare deserts.
The most recent statistic on childcare costs found that for Americans with two kids, they are paying 10 % of their income for childcare.
So I mentioned all of these numbers, not to be like doom and gloom, but more to say wellness has given us methods and tools, but it has not given us principles or perspective.
So a juice cleanse is not going to fix all of those problems.
I love that. So you used two words, principles and perspectives.
What is the deeper perspective about what self -care is versus what the wellness industry is marketing to us?
Because it almost feels like, you know, when you mentioned juice cleanse and I know when I go online, you are bombarded with people's skincare routines and the bubble baths and the things that they're doing at night to take care of themselves.
And it's almost as if the wellness industry or the skincare industry has hijacked the word self -care.
But when you think about it from the lens of psychiatrist, what does self -care mean to you?
So it's actually really interesting.
When I was working on the book, I did a little research on the roots of the word self -care.
It's funny because there's two parallel lineages that came out in like the 1950s, 1960s.
One is social justice movement, Audre Lorde self -care, self -preservation, but the other actually is psychiatry.
So in the 50s and 60s, psychiatrists were using the word self -care to describe the choices that patients who are unlocked psychiatric units could make.
So like, what do I want to wear today?
What am I going to eat for lunch?
What exercise am I going to do?
Again, coming back to agency, even in the context of having so many of your choices made for you, you can still find small ways.
So obviously now in 2024, self -care, the term has gone wildly off the rails.
But let me give you kind of an example.
So imagine that you are going to a yoga class and you spend most of the time on the mat kind of feeling guilty because, oh, you know, maybe your mom, you should have maybe spent this hour helping your kid with his homework.
You need to make cupcakes for school.
So you're there in the yoga class, but your mind is feeling all the skills and this mental load.
On top of that, you're looking at the person next to you who can hold a headstand and like you can't even do crow pose.
So you're comparing yourself.
You're beating yourself up.
You also don't really know why you're even at yoga.
Like you're there because like Mel told you to go to yoga, but you haven't really internalized like what does yoga do for you?
And so essentially, you've given away your power.
So that's one person, but then imagine a completely different scenario where you have a hard conversation with your partner and you say, hey, look, you know, I think both of us do a lot better when we each have a little bit of alone time over the weekend.
So let's I'm going to go to yoga on Saturday and you can go for your run on Sunday because we both know we're better parents.
We're better partners.
When we have that time, you set boundaries.
You are on the mat and you're not beating yourself up.
You are actually connected to yourself in a nice way.
And then you've actually named for yourself.
What is it about yoga?
Like, why does yoga help me?
Maybe for you, it's the physicality.
You know, you feel strong.
You're in your body.
Maybe for somebody else, it's actually community.
You like being in that room with other people who have same passion as you.
So it's different. You have to name your own value.
And through that, you have actually reclaimed your agency from the society, which is telling us, no, no, no, don't rest.
Don't do anything for yourself.
Instead, just keep producing.
Just do more, be more.
The whole kind of thesis here is that real self care is actually, it's not about the thing.
It's about all of the work you do inside before you do the thing.
So your yoga class is only as powerful as the boundaries that you've set beforehand.
There is so much to unpack.
I want to take a gigantic highlighter and I want to make sure as you're listening that you heard what Dr.
Puja just said. She said it's not about the thing.
It's about the reason why you are doing the thing in the first place.
And if I get back to two of the words that you said earlier, principles and perspective, that's how you access it.
I'm also in that example, which I found crazy relatable.
I was thinking, how are you in my head while I'm doing yoga?
Because you're right.
I race there. I get on that mat.
I maybe settle in for five seconds after looking around and checking out like, OK, like how am I going to size up here?
Then it starts. If there's no music, I'm complaining about that in my mind.
And then I'm almost immediately thinking about what I'm going to do after the class.
And the other thing that I think about in that example is I have probably poured more time and energy into the mat and the towel and the bottle of water and the outfit that I'm wearing than I am about the reason why I do it.
And when you go deeper and you tap into the deeper principle of what this is for and why you do it, that's how you access the power of it.
And then you also gave that example with your partner where you say the reason I do this is not because I'm supposed to because I see all these other people doing it and because I'm this or that or the other thing, but because I know the deeper principle.
I'm a better person.
I'm better for you when I do this.
Wow. Yeah. I'm going to give you something else, too, that encompasses this.
So real self -care is not a thing to do.
It's a way to be. It's a verb.
It's not a noun. It's something that you thread through all the decisions that you make in life, whether it's how you show up to yoga or what job you choose or who you decide to partner with.
Like, it really is something that is in the fabric if you're doing it right.
How do you figure out how to be?
And I'm sitting here also thinking to myself, OK, I spent a lot of time talking to people trying to distill their research and advice down to the takeaway and the thing to do.
OK, everybody, go for a walk.
We're going to do this thing.
We're going to do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I know you're not saying don't do the thing.
You're saying go deeper first and actually understand the way you want to be in life.
Is that what you're saying?
Yes, exactly. I'm not saying that the things are bad, you know.
Yoga actually can be really helpful.
Exercise is helpful.
There's tons of studies.
Sleep is important, right?
All these things. It's about how you show up to those things.
If you're not taking the time to reflect and understand how the yoga or the meditation is important in your life and really getting a sense for what it does for you, then you're just checking it off the list.
You're not actually taking in the medicine or the nourishment of those activities.
And I want to say for folks that are listening, I don't want you to feel ashamed because we all do this.
We live in a society where you open Instagram or TikTok and it's just right.
Like it's all the the makeup and the yoga and all the things.
We all do this. We're all in this together.
And it's not about shaming yourself.
You can't beat yourself into real self -care.
And again, it's just that you have to understand that the internal work has to go along with it beforehand.
Otherwise, it's just going to be empty calories.
And I mean, if you're like me, you'll be really great.
You'll do it every day for like two weeks and then life will get busy and then you'll fall off.
I think I just had a whole like light bulb moment.
Let's go to the example where you said you're online.
It happens to all of us.
You see a fitness influencer that looks fantastic and they're doing yoga on a mat beach and you think to yourself, I really need to be doing that.
I need to be taking better care of that that right there that I should I need to the adding of the thing to the to do list.
That's when it becomes almost like a form of shame.
Like you're making yourself wrong in that moment because you're not doing the thing that you think you should be doing.
I think that is such a common experience to see a cleanse to see somebody doing yoga, to see somebody hiking or doing whatever and to then go I should be doing that and the fact that I haven't made time for that means that I am doing something wrong.
Is there something you could do in that moment that truly is self care, that being part that you're going to teach us today?
Yeah, so that's I mean, that's the boundary, right?
That's where boundaries.
What is a boundary?
I'm glad that you asked that question, Mel, because I do think we see boundaries everywhere.
Like you open any app and everybody is talking about boundaries.
So it can be a little bit I roll.
My take on boundaries is different and we're gonna get into that.
But essentially, the boundary doesn't always mean saying no.
So this was an aha that I had where I kind of came to an understanding.
This was in, I think it was 2016.
I just graduated my psychiatry residency at GW, George Washington University in D .C.
And I got my dream job on the faculty and I was going to be helping to run the Women's Mental Health Clinic and bright eyed and bushy tailed.
And my adviser, my mentor, she took me out for lunch on my first day and she was like, I'm going to give you a piece of advice, Puja.
And I was like, oh, maybe it's about like how to dose SSRIs or some secret.
Her advice was you don't need to answer your office phone.
You can let it go to voicemail, listen to what they want, decide and then respond.
And that's what I was like, oh, the boundary is the pause.
And then you always have three options.
Yes, no or negotiate, because the truth is that no always comes with a cost, whether that is emotional or financial or political or interpersonal.
Like no is not accessible for everybody.
But the pause, you can always do the pause.
So for me, in that example, it was like, OK, you know, sometimes the phone rings and it's the front desk and they just have some insurance paperwork that they need me sign.
And I can call them back and I can say, oh, I'll do it at the end of the day.
But sometimes like it's a patient who I know if she misses a day of her Adderall, her ADHD medicine, she will literally get into a car accident.
Let me put in that refill right away.
Right. So you pause and you reflect.
So it's about responding as opposed to reacting.
And so that's what a boundary means for me.
It is that pause. It's to be a little woo woo about it.
It's like the existential space in between.
Why do we need a pause?
How does that connect to the fact that we don't take good care of ourselves?
Yeah. In order to actually be able to take care of yourself, you need to really acknowledge that you are a self that needs taking care of, like that you are actually an embodied person that has your own wants and needs and preferences and desires.
And and that is something that actually is a little bit radical, shockingly, in our society.
And the first step to it, again, is the boundary because that's the pause.
That's the space in between.
And when we're talking about real self care, there's four principles.
Boundaries, compassion, values and power.
The boundaries are the backbone.
It's actually what you put in between and it demarcates your own space.
So that's why they're so important.
Like if there were one psychological skill for folks to learn when it comes to doing life, it's boundaries.
I understand in your practice there are five questions that you use as almost like an assessment.
You write about it in your book that give you almost a temperature check on where somebody is on this scale of boundaries and power and values.
Can you walk us through those five questions?
Yes. Do I feel motivated to tackle my tasks or am I overwhelmed or am I apathetic?
Are there any particular people or situations that are constantly draining me?
Do I set aside regular time for rest or am I always pushing through and gritting my teeth?
Do I ever ask for help?
And when people offer help, am I able to actually receive it?
Am I making time for things that truly matter to me, not to my kids, not to my partner, not to society, but to me?
Or am I constantly caught up in things that don't serve me?
I think I just heard the person who's with us right now slump a little.
There were a couple of those, especially the one do I set aside time for rest or am I always pushing through that really was like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
What does it tell you as a psychiatrist when someone is answering these questions as a no, I don't feel like I can tackle my tasks or I'm really drained by situations or I never rest or I don't allow people to help me.
And I definitely don't make time for things that truly matter to me, not to everyone else.
And frankly, I don't even know what matters to me.
I'm so busy taking care of everyone else.
What does that tell you when you walk somebody through these questions?
The reality is that's all of us.
That is all of us. That is all my patients.
That is me at various times in my life.
I think that we need to understand, again, going back to the fact that we're living in this society together, we are all under these pressures.
So of course you're going to feel this way.
And when I see this come up in my practice, again, this is everybody naming it, naming it.
It's so powerful because then we can actually say, okay, what do we do?
How do we work on this?
I imagine that most folks listening are, yeah, they checked off yes for everything.
I don't want anybody to panic.
I don't want you to freak out.
I think that we need to also kind of reframe the conversation on burnout a little bit because I think that if you've checked all these things, you might be burnt out.
But I think that we kind of treat burnout as like this dreaded catastrophic thing.
But when something is so dreaded, you engage in denial, you engage in avoidance, and then it takes landing yourself in the hospital or losing your job, getting into a car accident to finally say, oh yeah, I guess I am burnt out.
So in reality, I think that we need to understand that's just part of the game right now because of the world that we live in.
And the whole process of boundaries and real self -care is to recognize it sooner.
To recognize it when it's like a little B burnout as opposed to a big B burnout so that you can start to get back on the wagon, start to get back into your boundaries, right?
So you're not reaching that place of on the floor.
I'm saying this because I want folks to understand that there are solutions.
This is not incurable.
And I walk patients through this all the time.
And I will say, if you're somebody who's type A or perfectionistic or workaholic, not that I know anybody like that, you will probably go through this cycle more often because you are constantly sort of moving forward.
So I will say for myself, I go through this every six months where I have to kind of reconfigure and think about my boundaries and relearn how to talk to myself.
But there's a silver lining.
It gets easier each time.
It gets so much easier each time.
How do you define burnout?
I think it's a little bit chicken and egg when it comes to boundaries and burnout because one of the characteristics of burnout is feeling like your actions have no meaning, almost like kind of like a cynicism, like you're just going through the motions, but nothing that you do actually really matters
or is going to impact anything.
And when you don't have boundaries, you also sort of feel like everything's closing in on you.
You don't have a choice.
You're not actually living your life.
Your life is sort of happening to you.
I think it's tough.
I think that this is one of the things, this way therapy takes so long, because you have to tease apart all the different pieces because certainly not having boundaries makes it more likely that you're going to become burnt out.
But when you are burnt out and even little be burned out, your boundaries are usually worse.
So it's like this cycle that keeps going.
Pooja, you've been talking a lot about the power of applause.
So I'm going to take a pause right now so we can give our sponsors an opportunity to share a few words with you.
But don't go anywhere because coming up later in the episode, Pooja has an exercise that you're going to be able to do today where you're going to look ahead to your week ahead.
And it's going to highlight exactly where you don't have any boundaries and what to do about it.
Stay with us. Welcome back.
It's your friend Mel Robbins, and you and I are getting a masterclass today on boundaries and how they connect to your ability to take better care of yourself.
So Pooja, what does somebody's life look like if they don't have any boundaries?
Yeah, so there's three telltale signs that tell me a patient doesn't have boundaries.
The first is that they are angry and irritable all the time, that everybody around them knows that they're kind of like a ticking time bomb.
But the person actually, they just think that they're selfless.
They think that they're doing everything for everyone else.
So the perfect example is the mom that stays up all night on Christmas Eve wrapping all the gifts.
And then the next morning is just like a terror and is like, oh my God, don't you guys see that this, you know, wrapping paper is a perfect one?
And everyone's just like, oh my gosh, like a mom has lost the plot.
You mean me. Yeah. You mean me, that is me.
Like, and you know what I, what I was thinking is, oh my gosh, I have that.
I do get angry. I go overboard and I get angry when I don't feel appreciated, and then I feel like a victim.
And I have this whole thing where my family takes me for granted and you're not thankful enough, when really I didn't need to buy matching wrapping paper.
I didn't need to go overboard and basically drive myself into the ground to make everything perfect.
And instead of having a boundary with myself and stopping myself, I then become a victim and get pissed off at my family because they don't appreciate all this stuff that they never even asked me to do in the first place.
And they don't even want me to do.
Exactly. And that's actually, that's the other thing that I see.
That's the second sign, is expecting everybody else to be constantly grateful and thanking you.
When in fact they haven't even asked for any of these things, but you have this underlying assumption and need that people need to be pouring their thanks out to you.
And then, you know, you're resentful when you don't get it.
But the reality is nobody asked for it.
You made that choice.
That can be a sign, right?
You are expecting other people to constantly be thanking you for all of the things that you're doing for them.
The person that doesn't have boundaries is constantly feeling like they are managing their life as opposed to living their life.
I see this a lot with my patients who are all women, mostly moms, right?
You feel like you're managing your family as opposed to actually being part of your family because you haven't taken the space to unload some things and actually allow yourself to be present.
So another sign is that you constantly fantasize about escape.
So whether that is, I just need to go to a retreat for a week.
I just need to lay on the beach.
I just need to, one of my personal favorites that I've engaged in before is, I just want to move to like a vegetable farm and just have this very simple life, right?
Where I just farm, you know?
So the reality is those are escapes and your mind goes there because you feel so overwhelmed and you feel powerless about actually making decisions and choices in your life.
You know, as I'm listening to you, I'm having this massive realization about boundaries.
I've always known that boundaries are not for other people.
Boundaries are like my rules for myself, but the mistake that I'm realizing that I made is that I've always made those rules about what I do and don't do with other people.
And I've never hit that pause and truly thought about what are the rules that I have for myself that allow me to truly care for myself.
And it's a completely different way to look at this topic and why the pause then becomes essential so that you stop yourself from constantly pouring into everybody else and then running them over when they're not grateful like I always do, or feeling like the victim or unappreciated.
Wow, this is like kind of pulling on a string of a sweater.
And now my whole life is unraveling before my eyes and I realized I have a lot of work to do.
I'm so sorry. Well, I should be thanking you.
I'm happy to do the work to not drive myself crazy and into the ground and make my family the villains here.
So it does beg the question, though, how the heck do you start?
I mean, am I going to put my hands on my hips and be like, all right, no rapping on Christmas presents.
You guys are getting them in the grocery bags this year and you better be grateful.
Like I have a boundary.
Like how do you do this?
Don't do that. You want to start small.
And so that means actually not with your family because your family is actually the hardest.
That's like advanced level setting boundaries with family or in -laws.
You want to actually start really, really small.
Why is it hard to set boundaries with family?
Because you have years and years and years of history with family that you have to undo.
So, you know, if if mom has been folding laundry and putting everyone's folded laundry in their drawers for the past 30 years and all of a sudden mom says like, hey, guys, I'm not going to do laundry anymore.
Like people are going to have some feelings.
Actually, can I say something about that?
So I stopped doing laundry a couple of years ago and our son Oakley, he will admit this and he will not be like upset at all that I'm about to share it.
I don't know if this is like a dyslexic thing, but he does not fold his clothes.
He does his own laundry, but he will do the laundry and then it's in big piles and it's kind of thrown into drawers.
And the feelings that you're talking about that people have when you stop doing something, it's not just what they have, it's what you have.
Because I would walk past his room and see the state that that was in and the feelings that would come up would be like, what the and I would have to stop myself from going in and folding the clothes and doing the things that I used to do.
And so I think it's probably both their feelings that come up when you change and also your feelings that come up.
Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought this up because it's actually, this reminds me of two things.
You have to let go of control.
You have to let the other person do what they're going to do, even if it means a messy underwear drawer and it drives you crazy, you have to let go of control.
The other thing is it's going to take longer.
It's going to take longer.
People are going to do it their own way.
A lot of times we avoid the yes, no, and negotiate because it's just easier to say yes, and just do it and get it done.
And then you could just move on with your day.
But instead, when you stop and you negotiate, you're saying no, or it's this whole thing.
And we kind of trick ourselves into thinking it's not worth it.
But the reality is it is worth it because you're setting new expectations for the future.
For yourself and for them.
Correct. That I'm not going to get upset about this because my energy is needed elsewhere.
Correct. Wow. So how do you get started if we're going to start small and not with our family?
So you want to start at really low stakes risks.
So very baby risks.
So I will tell you with my patients and even for me at times, it's remedial.
It's like, I am going to sit down and eat lunch.
You mean I can actually eat, but not stand and eat and work and talk and eat.
And not in front of my computer.
Yes. I'm going to sit down at a table and actually eat lunch.
I have a patient who is a healthcare worker.
And so as we got to working on these things, we realized she can go an entire eight hour shift on the wards working and not eat anything and not drink anything.
Not even have a sip of water.
So we start small. We start really basic.
Every hour you're going to go to the nurses station and you're going to drink some water.
That's where you start.
You do not start with your kids and Christmas or your mother -in -law and Thanksgiving.
You start by the drinking water because those skills they build on each other.
They give you confidence and then you work your way up.
Well, I could see that you could set like an alarm on your phone to go off every hour during the workday with a nice little buzz or something.
And like, that's your little pause moment.
Like, oh, this is a reminder that I have to have a boundary with work right now so that I can care for myself.
Can I ask a question about that?
How is telling yourself you're going to take a break, a boundary?
Do you see what I mean?
Because I think when you hear boundary, I think fence.
And I got to keep like, it's like, I'm doing something in relation to other people.
And I would love to hear you unpack how drinking more water or the one that popped in my mind is, is it a boundary to say to myself, on weeknights, I need to be in bed by nine o 'clock?
And what does that even mean in the context of how you think about boundaries as a psychiatrist and how we can learn this fundamental skill?
Can I ask you some questions?
Of course. Tell me more about how you made that limit for yourself.
I need to be in bed by nine o 'clock.
Oh, like what led to that?
What did you notice that led to you saying that to yourself?
It's a great question.
And I'm going to answer it.
And I want to invite you as you're listening to the questions that Pooja is asking me to think about the boundary that you need to set and how you would answer these same questions for yourself.
And so we do ask that question again.
Yeah. So I want to understand a little bit better why you chose that limit.
Why getting in bed at nine o 'clock was something that felt important for your wellbeing.
What was the decision making process and what was going wrong that led to it?
I know that when I get a great night's sleep, I feel better.
I have a better day.
I'm a kinder person.
It allows me to show up for myself and for my family and for my colleagues at work.
And if I don't get in bed by nine o 'clock, what ends up happening is my husband does.
And then I tell myself, I'm just going to do a couple of things quickly.
And then I'll be in the bed.
And then like a lot of people, I find that two hours goes by and I've either spent it on my phone or I have watched another episode of a series that is not that important, or I have futzed around and now all of a sudden it's 11 and my husband is sound asleep.
And I'm thinking, I should have gone to bed.
And so now I'm making myself wrong.
And then there's another impact because I also feel really good when I get out of bed early and I have enough time to be able to get a full walk in and be able to start my day at a pace that feels nurturing rather than that feels like I've been shoved into a cannon and shot out of it.
And so that's the reason.
And so it sort of unravels from there.
And the later that I go to bed, the more of an impact it has on the chaos in the morning and the things I don't have time to do that truly take care of me.
Got it. Okay. That was a long answer.
Yeah, no, that was great.
And for folks that are listening, I want you to be thinking through all of these different steps and the answer that I give, I want you to try and apply it to the specific situation in your life.
So what I'm hearing is the decision to go to bed at nine is the faux self -care.
The faux self -care.
Faux? You mean like fake self -care?
Are you shaming me, Dr.
Puja? I mean, what is going on here?
So there is fake self -care?
When I say faux, I mean it's the superficial level.
The real self -care is actually all of the decisions that you made to get to that place of going to sleep at 9 p .m.
Because for another person, their bedtime could be 11.
Somebody else, their bedtime could be seven.
So the reason that we're putting that label on it is so that everybody knows that their real self -care is going to be different.
Oh, so the bedtime is the thing.
The bedtime is the thing.
And I'm focused on the time I'm going to bed, just like we were talking earlier about focusing on going to the yoga class.
And the class and the bedtime is the thing that's superficial, the thing that you have to do, the thing that turns into the shame when you don't do it.
But the opportunity for power is to go deeper and to understand what exactly is underneath the thing and the way you're trying to care for yourself by going to yoga or getting in bed by a certain time.
Correct. So the boundary for me is more about not doing those things.
That keep me awake and keep me from going to sleep and getting the rest that I need so that I can wake up in the morning and truly set myself up to feel good again.
Does that make sense?
Yeah. Yes. Because you're right.
I've been focused on 9 o 'clock and then the second 9 o 'clock rolls around and I blow right past it.
Now I'm making myself wrong because I've stayed up late versus just focusing on, so what do I focus on?
I love that we're going granular because I think you're trying to challenge us to think about the deeper reasons why this matters and why you as a person deserve this kind of care from yourself.
Yes, yes. The reason that boundaries are the first principle of real self -care is to even be able to make space, to think in this way, to look at how your day is going, how your week is going.
You need to take some time back from other people in your life, from responsibilities, right?
So you need to have the time to actually think, okay, I need to go to bed a little bit later.
How am I going to make that happen?
What are the things that I'm doing to procrastinate?
The boundary is the way that you make the space to even be able to have this conversation with yourself.
It's not just the operational.
Yes, there is the operational boundary of I'm going to turn screens off.
All of that is just as important, but it's also like kind of a meta thing, too.
I just got a big insight about myself that I'm going to share because I hope it's as you're listening, it maybe helps you think deeper.
I just realized something.
As you're pushing me to think more deeply about what I actually need, I have just come through a period where I've been working so much because of changes here at work and my book manuscript was due, that by the time I rolled into the TV room where my husband had been watching TV for half an hour and he's
ready to go to bed, I'm just finishing work.
I'm staying awake because I haven't relaxed at all until that moment.
I'm not ready to go to bed.
The boundary really isn't about going to bed at nine.
It's really about taking back more of my time from work and from other demands.
This kind of tension around getting to bed at the right time has way more to do with how I've overextended myself everywhere.
That means it's more than a bedtime.
It's taking a deeper look at where am I working on things that don't matter to me?
Where have I said yes where I need to actually say no?
What do I want my evenings to look like so that I feel like I get a little bit of time and enjoyment and rest and entertainment back?
Wow. Oh my work here is done.
The way you explain these topics is just incredible.
Here's what I want to do.
I want to take a quick pause so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors.
As you've been listening to Pooja, I know there's somebody that's coming to mind that needs to hear this in your life.
Please send this to them and then don't go anywhere because there is so much more to dig into and Pooja and I will be waiting for you after a short break.
Stay with us. Welcome back.
It's your friend Mel Robbins and today you and I are learning all about boundaries from the extraordinary psychiatrist and professor Dr.
Pooja Lakshman. So Pooja, let's go to the example that you said of somebody that's got a super busy day and you're starting to realize that holy cow.
At the end of the day, I feel like a raisin and my urine is bright orange because I have not had a droplet of water and I need to set a boundary of taking a break every hour and making sure I drink something or I eat something.
Can we unpack what that's actually about or how you draw that boundary or what that means?
We raise girls to get their value in their ability to be accommodating to others.
So I think that the guilt actually is coming from the outside but that doesn't change that it sucks to feel guilty and the number one reason that my patients struggle with boundaries is the guilt.
So I'm gonna share a little tool that can help with the guilt.
So this tool comes from acceptance and commitment therapy which is a third wave type of psychotherapy that incorporates eastern mindfulness and meditation in the concept.
And I say that because I know folks that are listening, I know your audience is familiar with meditation and mindfulness.
So hopefully this will resonate.
But I've never heard of the third wave of this so that is a brand new concept for me.
So imagine that you are at a sushi restaurant.
So one of those sushi restaurants where the plates are coming around on the conveyor belt, there is a sushi chef and he is at the center of all the plates.
That chef, the sushi chef, is your brain.
That's your mind. The plates of sushi that are going around the conveyor belt are your thoughts and your feelings and your memories and your desires rolling through over the course of the whole day.
And now you're sitting at that sushi bar and there's gonna be plates that are really appetizing that you're gonna want to pick up and grab and gobble.
For me, that is like spicy tuna roll.
I love spicy tuna roll, right?
But then there's gonna be plates that like really are unappetizing and we all have different things where we're like, oh, I just want to push that away.
But you don't do that at a sushi restaurant.
You just let the plates go by.
So that's how we use to think about guilt.
Guilt is not something that is, it doesn't need to be our moral compass.
It is just one feeling that is there among many other feelings and thoughts.
And when we frame all of our decisions around boundaries based on guilt, we're giving it way too much power.
The reason that I think that this hopefully this metaphor helps for folks is because when you visualize the sushi train, you're able to see that the guilt is just one small piece over everything else.
And if you spend all of your time trying to avoid feeling guilty, you're actually giving the guilt just as much power.
So I'm thinking about the person who is taking their break and they're gonna have their water and a little snack.
And the second that they go down one floor and they hide in a room that nobody else is in, so you can just take a break and set that boundary, the feelings of I should really get back to work.
I shouldn't stay so long.
I'm going to get in trouble if I'm doing this.
You're saying every one of those thoughts are just a sushi plate of sea urchin going by.
And you can just let it come and let it go and stay and have your water and keep in the pause.
Correct. That your job is to learn how to tolerate the guilt.
And I know that this is difficult, but the good news is that as you start to practice it, it becomes easier.
The volume goes down on the guilt.
It never completely goes away, again, because it's constructed from the outside, but it gets so much softer.
It becomes more of a whisper.
And you're able to be like, it doesn't bother you.
How do you counsel a patient who is coming to you and the guilt is related to being a single parent or related to caring for an aging parent or somebody that is going through an illness and is just nonstop?
How do you handle boundaries and truly caring for yourself or asking for help in those situations?
Yeah. Well, look, people who are in those situations usually are in fight or flight.
Their nervous system is hypervigilant and stress for good reason.
They are carrying so much responsibility.
So the first piece is just to acknowledge the grief, really, just acknowledge how hard this is and how much it sucks.
Really, that validation goes a really long way.
After that, there's a couple of things.
One, recognizing that by setting a boundary, by pausing, you're not always going to be able to say no, right?
The will feel uncomfortable because there are a lot of people depending on them, but they have to start somewhere small, right?
We're talking about the small things, the feeding and watering yourself, and you'll be able to work up to the bigger things.
And acknowledging in those situations, yes, there is going to be a cost.
Balls will drop. Nora Roberts talks about the rubber balls versus the glass balls, right?
You need to know what those rubber balls are.
Can you give us examples of what they are?
Yeah. Yeah. So it's things like, I have three kids and they're all in different schools.
And those schools, each one is like 30 minutes from the other.
Do my kids really all need to go to schools that are 30 minutes from each other?
That is a choice. That is a choice that you have made.
Here's another example.
And I talk about this in the book.
I'm the one who is taking care of my father.
My mother passed away.
I have other siblings, but they are not contributing at all.
And I've been taking this.
I've been taking this for years and years and years, but you're finally going to understand that you can't do it all by yourself and you will get sick if you continue to keep doing it all by yourself.
So again, that's kind of like setting the boundary and understanding I need to have a hard conversation with my siblings.
They need to chip in as well.
How do you coach somebody through that?
Because that's such a common thing where you're the one that's close by and maybe your siblings aren't and you've asked for help, but it doesn't come.
Yeah. Like how do you have that boundary?
Because so many of us feel like, well, I'm not just going to let my father rot alone as a way to make a point to my siblings.
How do you truly ask and like demand an effective way to get the support that you need?
So it depends a little bit on the circumstances.
So you have to think about how intact are the relationships that you have with your siblings.
Do they have the capacity to help?
If they don't, then you need to make that decision for yourself that you are going to find help in other ways that you are going to move forward regardless of what they're able to do or not able to do.
Again, you know, I mentioned grief earlier, being able to process the fact that this isn't fair, that this isn't fair.
That's important. Like you need that space to be able to acknowledge that, but then also despite that fact, still find a way to advocate for yourself.
It might not be with your siblings because maybe they're just really not going to chip in.
They're not going to help.
Maybe it's getting some help around the neighborhood.
Maybe you have a babysitter that used to help you when your kids were younger and maybe they can come around.
Maybe it's finding some activities for your parent.
It's never going to be something that completely takes away the feeling of burden in some sense.
You know, I know that that's a loaded word, but you have to start with small things.
Like it's not like you can just say like, okay, I'm setting a boundary and here's the boundary.
You have to kind of be more surgical with it.
Well, one thing that I often see that surprises me and I've been in this situation, so it's easy to kind of look on the outside and think I'd do something different, but I have a number of friends who became the primary caretaker of an aging parent and no support from siblings, but then they would make
the mistake of thinking they should consult their siblings about the decisions.
And so to me, if there's not an equal sharing of the burden, you actually have no seat at the table to make the decisions.
And that to me is one of those choices that could be a boundary in that situation.
Like where your own behavior isn't creating enough space between you and the situation to make decisions that feel more powerful for you because of the guilt.
You talked about selfishness.
You said guilt and selfishness are the two emotions that come up.
How do you deal with selfishness?
Is it the exact same thing as the sushi plate?
Yeah. So the sushi plate definitely helps for sure.
One of the other things that I think about with selfishness is just the fact that we're kind of constantly ping ponging back and forth between selfish versus selfless.
And obviously for women, selfless is something that is really put on a pedestal.
And selfish is something that is this dreaded outcome.
When in reality, the healthy way to be living is to be in shades of gray, to be in the middle place.
I mentioned earlier that one of the signs of not having boundaries is to feel like you're managing your family as opposed to being part of your family.
I'm not saying that every single decision is according to your preference.
It's like maybe one out of every 10 decisions that you make is according to your preference.
That you're actually including yourself.
I find that when my patients feel selfish, it's usually because they are engaging in some sort of black and white thinking, all or nothing, either I'm selfish or I'm selfless.
The reality is it's a middle ground.
What are the top three boundaries that you find that people really need to set in their life?
So one of the biggest things is all of the decisions that you make as a parent, whether that is when your kids are really little around how you're going to feed your kid, how you're going to get your kids to sleep, who's going to take care of your kid, all the way up to what college is my kid going
to go to, what are they going to do with their life, which Mal, I know you just completed.
The boundary is not ruminating so much about all those things, not assuming that you have so much control.
So I spend a lot of time with my patients kind of helping them understand that this thing, these things in parenting don't need to be constantly litigated in your mind.
Of course, work is such a huge aspect of what I talk about with my patients and just a lot of things that you said too, Mal, being able to disconnect, finding a way to let go of whatever work project or whatever dynamic that's going on with your boss and giving yourself permission to let it go.
How do you do that when you're worried about getting fired?
And I'm not saying that you're doing a bad job, but I am shocked at how quickly I see this, especially like with my adult kids or with friends who they're clearly in a situation that's not working for them, but it's like, but I can't get another job, but I got bills to pay, but I haven't had to have.
And so there's this narrative in your mind that is so fear driven, that is a part of this dynamic where you've lost power.
So how do you begin to start to set boundaries at work when you've convinced yourself you have no power and you need this paycheck?
There's a couple of things for this.
So one is again, I keep going back to the start small.
The reason for that, the reason for the drink water, take lunch, is because that's a small risk.
That's a small risk.
And then you can see, you can see how your boss reacts.
You can see how your coworkers react.
If you're at a place where people lose their minds because you're taking 15 minutes to eat lunch.
Okay. Well, well then taking a bigger risk is probably going to be, you know, make more waves than you want it to.
So you're collecting information.
You're, I kind of call it collecting data.
You don't want to take that big risk first because yeah, it's true.
You need your job. The other thing that I would say is I find that there are places that we can exert agency that are not top level that you are constantly thinking about.
You know, when you're in a toxic work situation, you're constantly sort of just like, oh God, like this person said this and I have no, but sometimes there can be smaller things that really make an impact.
Like what? So I experienced this actually when I was a medical student, which talk about no agency, right?
You're just on this conveyor belt.
I was in a surgical rotation that was like very toxic and I realized I was miserable.
I realized my, my team, they never called me by my name.
They were just like, no, they were just like, hey, med student, hey, med student, my boundary.
I couldn't leave. I couldn't, I was in med school was every time somebody said that, I would be like, oh, my name's Pooja.
And that had me feel a little bit like, okay, I'm, you know, exerting myself.
So sometimes it can be like really small.
I know that's, that sounds like silly, you know, this was, I don't actually think that's a small example.
And the reason why I don't think that's a small example is because everything that you're teaching us is about caring for self.
And that requires you to have a level of self -awareness and respect for yourself, that you in these moments will advocate for yourself, will ask for what you need, will tell people the correct pronunciation of your name, or that this is my name.
And I do believe that you do reclaim your power in the tiniest of moments because there's so many times during your day where you just let something slide.
And those are examples, whether it's somebody who belittles you or disrespects you or mispronounces your name, and you just kind of let it slide, that you don't honor yourself and what you need.
And so I do think, I think that's a big example.
Thank you. You're welcome.
And it's important to point out, and I'm going to go back to the water because I remember when I left my job as a public defender in New York City and we moved to Boston and the only job that I could get in the legal field was working for this huge law firm because I was not licensed in the state of Massachusetts,
so I couldn't do trial work.
I freaking hated that job.
And I remember there were a couple times that I went outside the office for lunch and I came back and I was not admonished, but one time it was a friend who was like, dude, the partner was looking for you and they couldn't find you and they're really upset and you weren't in the building and I wouldn't
do that. And it was this huge moment where I immediately felt like I had no power over my life.
And so I came up with all these little strategies, one of which was if I would go out, I'd leave my jacket on my chair.
And I also moved my desk so they couldn't walk by and see my computer, but that they'd have to look in and see the back of the, just small ways to kind of, and every time I would leave the building, it was this tiny little act of defiance, but it was a boundary and a way for me to say, I still have some agency
here. And I think simply doing these small things first, help you do the bigger things later.
How do you even know if you're starting to practice this type of deeper care for self?
I wouldn't even call it self care.
It's like care for self, which feels like you're getting at the heart of truly caring for yourself.
I guess maybe can you describe, because sometimes if you're like drink water, like really let yourself relax at night Mel, don't put the pressure on a bedtime.
What's available to you?
Yeah. Oh, I love that.
I love how you just said that.
When you're practicing these principles and you're applying them to your life, you feel like you have choices.
You're able to actually take a step back when somebody asks you for something or asks you to do something and consider it.
You don't feel pressured.
You feel like you can take your time.
And that doesn't mean that every single thing in your life, you're going to push back and say, no, no, you pick your battles.
You're able to do this pause and say no.
And the guilt will be very small.
It'll be a whisper, not something that overpowers your whole life.
You will have feelings of flow really where you're engaged in activities or with people, where time kind of falls away and you're fully present.
You will be nicer. You will be a nicer person to be around.
Those are all the signs that it's working.
And I want to say a couple of things with this one.
This isn't a game of perfection.
This isn't something you win.
This is something that you're constantly practicing.
So it's not like, oh my gosh, I have to be the best person in the world.
I need to get an A in boundaries to be able to do this.
No, you get a D in boundaries and you're just climbing your way up.
We're constantly just taking baby step on baby step on baby step and you will fall off.
And then you just come back.
That's the whole thing.
It's not like you achieve this and you check it off your list.
It's more like you use it as a, again, like a thermometer that I have in the book.
It's like, you're assessing yourself.
And then when you find like, okay, I'm getting a little off here.
Let me look at what's going on.
Let me start to think about how I'm spending my time or my energy.
The image that just came to mind as I was listening to you, it's really changed the way I am looking at boundaries right now.
And that is like, I see a force field.
It's almost like you're erecting a personal force field between you and the world.
And there's this space, the pause that you called it, between the things going on out here and all your concern and worry and emotion and all that stuff that I think and what you choose to do in response.
It's like that space that allows you to truly make a more powerful decision.
Is that? Yeah. Can I make an adjustment?
I would love to. I love you too.
Please adjust all you want.
Yes. I like the imagery of the force field.
I worry that the force field feels a little bit too much like a brick wall because right now we're seeing all these things with people that are just cutting out their families and like, I don't talk to this person and that person's canceled, whatever.
A healthy boundary is actually, it's like those big trampolines people have in their backyard.
And then there's the mesh net.
That's what a boundary should be like.
It's flexible. It's give and take.
And yes, certainly there's going to be times where it needs to be like more sturdy and more firm, but the goal of a boundary isn't to always keep people out.
The goal of the boundary is to be able to go in between so that you can get what you need.
And hopefully the other person can too, maybe not all the time, but it's more flexible.
That makes sense. If you could speak directly to the person listening, what is one action that they could take today?
Cause I know they're going to want to try to implement this.
Is there something specific that they could do today to start to implement everything that you've taught us?
Like what's the most important thing to do?
The best way to take this information in and to start working with is to actually make time for it.
So look at your schedule, look at your schedule and say, when can I block off 20 minutes to think about my week?
This could be on Monday or on Friday.
Well, let's say it's going to be today.
So you're going to look for 20 minutes today.
You might be in the front seat of your car, might be after dinner, might be, I don't know when, but you're looking for 20 minutes.
What exactly am I, here comes my type A.
What am I doing? What's the thing?
I'm going to the thing.
What am I doing in the 20 minutes?
So you're looking at your schedule and you're paying attention to how each thing on your schedule feels.
Where do you feel dread?
Where do you feel excitement and energy?
Where do you feel boredom?
You're looking to see what feelings come up.
And then for the places where you feel bored, where you feel dread, you take the pause and write what you're setting aside 20 minutes.
It is 20 minutes. Think about, okay, what is it about that thing?
What is it about that meeting that makes me kind of just feel uncomfortable?
Is it because that coworker who's always a little bit rude to me is there at those meetings?
Is it because that meeting is always at 4 .30 and actually I'm supposed to be picking my kid up at 4 .30 and I haven't asked for that time.
Thinking more deeply about what it is.
So that's the first step.
And then next week, take some sort of action.
Let's take both of those examples.
So there's the meeting that is always scheduled at the time that I'm supposed to pick my kids up.
What is the pause that you can take?
It's a yes, no, negotiate in terms of the boundary.
So what are the options that you would have?
Let's just say that the meeting is a weekly standing team meeting.
The boundary, the pause would be saying, okay, when's the best time actually to communicate to my team that I'd like to see if we can move the weekly meeting.
Can I send an email out and say, hey, I actually have daycare pickup.
Looking forward for next calendar year, can we change this standing meeting?
Or even like next month, can we change this calendar meeting?
Does anybody have any objections to that?
So you're communicating and voicing what's not working for you and then making a suggestion for what could change.
Now, I'm not going to be Pollyanna about this and say that every time that's going to work, but the whole thing here is exerting your agency.
If you don't ask, it's never going to change.
I love this example because first of all, taking the 20 minutes today is a pause.
Yes. This is you pausing from just racing through your day and racing into the next week.
And then scanning your calendar for the next week and looking at every obligation from the sense of how does this make me feel is you pausing again and dropping deeper into the principles that you were talking about and your values and really asking yourself what is coming up for me.
And then the coaching that you just gave us to then further pause and say, what requests can I make?
What can I negotiate?
What could I say no to?
What do I need to say yes to?
That's another example of you actually excavating agency and power that you had no idea that you had because you had been so busy racing from one thing to the next.
I get it now. I get what you mean that it's in the pause, that you will find your power and the agency that you have to make small adjustments and requests and to say no and to let the guilt rise up or not in that pause.
Wow. What are your parting words?
My parting words are, if I can do it, you can do it.
That this is something that we're all practicing together.
It's something that we're learning for the first time.
And I know it might sound a little bit intimidating, but the reality is that once you start taking this pause, each time it will be easier.
Each time that you see the world doesn't fall apart.
My family doesn't fall apart.
The sun is still shining.
That is another way that you're building your confidence.
So I want everyone who's listening to know that this is possible and that you've got this.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. It is such a pleasure to be with you and to learn from you.
This was so fun. Thank you, Mel.
You're welcome. And I also want to make sure that in case no one else tells you that I tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life.
And there's zero doubt in my mind that if you do take 20 minutes today, which I hope you do, and you look at your calendar, and you lean into this pause, that you will tap into this power that is inside you to start to take control of these small moments and reclaim those aspects of your life.
Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days in the next episode.
Awesome. Tracey, you ready?
Yes. Awesome. Yeah, check whatever you want.
Say whatever you want.
Okay. Well, look, I mean, honestly, Meg.
I'll answer to anything.
I don't have a boundary with that because I know you're talking to me.
My book editor is Meg.
Mel. So, reading papers, all matching and, you know, and everyone's like, You mean me?
I wish I were kidding.
Awesome. That's everything.
You're so good at explaining and making that connection.
Thank you. You're welcome.
And you had fantastic examples and really fabulous.
Awesome. I'm so glad.
Oh, and one more thing.
And no, this is not a blooper.
This is the legal language, you know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.
This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.
I'm just your friend.
I am not a licensed therapist.
And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.
Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.
Stitcher.
