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My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I'm excited to, once again, be joined by Andrew Seaman, senior managing editor for jobs and career development at LinkedIn.
Andrew joined me in episode 151.
Andrew oversees a team of journalists and editors at LinkedIn who are focused on helping people navigate work, and life.
Through his Get Hired podcast, which he has kindly had me on a few times, he and his team help thousands of people get jobs and advance careers.
Welcome back, Andrew.
It is really exciting to have yet another conversation.
Thank you for hosting us in this beautiful studio of yours.
Of course. Thanks for having me.
I'm really excited to have a conversation that's part of our Catalyze Your Career miniseries sponsored by LinkedIn.
Should we get started?
it? I'd love to. Hi, Matt here.
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Clearly, the world is changing in terms of how people find jobs and the tools they use.
I'm curious, what are you seeing is changing in the world of job search?
And what should people be thinking about?
Right now, it's definitely like a transition period.
Obviously, we have a lot of things happening in the macro economy.
So you have hiring that is stable -ish, but we see dips and accelerations here or there.
But it's not an easy time to be a job seeker right now.
And then you also have the fact that a lot of places aren't hiring.
They weren't doing that already, but then at the same time, you have companies that are being a little bit more cautious.
So you have those factors at play.
But then you also have this looming idea of AI.
and we don't know what we don't know.
So it's hard to say exactly when and how people will be affected by it.
We know that it's already having an impact on some people.
There's so many different things at play and it's uncertain.
And then you also have a lot of people who are gonna be graduating soon.
So it's gonna be a really competitive market.
I think overall on LinkedIn, we've seen a 45 % increase in applications overall.
You have a lot of competition going on for jobs that aren't as plentiful as people would hope.
And so really thinking about your strategy and your approach can be really helpful.
Part of my teaching job is to prepare my MBA students for not just their impending careers, but for their job searches.
And when I speak with them, I break down job searching into four I's.
Identifying a potential job, investigating the company and the role, initiating contact and applying, and then finally interviewing.
I'd love for you to use my four I structure structure to help me answer some of these questions.
So what are the things that job seekers can do and what tools can they leverage to help with each stage?
So when it comes to identification, what are some things you would recommend that job seekers do and what tools are available to help them?
The first one is definitely being inquisitive.
I think knowing what's out there, knowing what resonates with you.
Utilize your network.
Obviously, you could do that on LinkedIn, but there are so many different ways you could reach out to friends and family.
You could reach out to former coworkers.
And I think the trick is to be genuine in those outreaches because so many people, they do an outreach, but it's more or less, hey, I saw a job at your company, give me a job.
And nothing makes a networking conversation or a conversation sort of spoil faster or even a whole relationship because that person just ends up feeling used.
So what I often tell people is just let your genuine curiosity guide you and let people know, like, hey, I'm looking for work and see what they offer you and say, oh, you should talk to so -and -so because they have this really cool job.
But whatever you do when you ask and you bring someone in for a conversation, be more interested in them.
And obviously you could end with I'm looking for new opportunities.
So if you have any suggestions, please let me know.
Like, don't make too big of an ask.
Asking for information is totally valid and it's a light lift for that other person.
But I think that's the biggest part.
And also what I tell people is search on LinkedIn.
Our search is changing right now, so we're going to be rolling out AI job search. So traditionally, when you job search, you would say, I want to be an accountant and I want to be an accountant in Savannah, Georgia.
And then there'd be other filters that said, I want to work at a big company or these are the requirements that I have. And, you know, you had to be pretty good at searching and you could set up an alert and and all that other stuff.
But the way that our engineers are now making the search work is through basically natural language.
So it's an AI job search. And what you could say is, you could basically say, okay, I want to work in accounting in Savannah, Georgia, and I'd like a minimum salary of whatever.
And this tool basically goes into LinkedIn's files and says, okay, we have these positions.
Here you go. So it's much more natural.
So it sounds to me like the key to identifying potential jobs is through conversation rather than direct request and that those same skills you might use when I'm talking to a friend or a friend of a friend, I can use with AI and that will also help me find the things that I'm looking for.
So taking the time to be thoughtful about identifying the jobs and not being so direct and blunt perhaps, at least with people, could be helpful.
So the second step I talk to my students about is investigating, doing the research, because if you are going to get an interview, it's important to know what advice do you have about how people can better investigate the companies and the roles that they're interested in?
I think, again, it comes back to conversations.
Nothing's going to give you better information than someone who's living that experience.
So you want to look for people who are at that company who are maybe in a similar role.
And even if there's not a job open or or they're not advertising for a role, you want to reach out and just set up those conversations and say, hey, would you be open for a 10 -15 minute conversation?
And these conversations could be super beneficial, because even if you don't know that person, if you get in front of them, or you have a good conversation with them, they could give you a lot of information about what their day to day is like, what the company's like, are there any green flags where, you know, something really resonates with you.
And you could use AI too, like you can keep a running list of of like, oh, here's a job description that I really like, add that to a file, and then you could have AI analyze it and come up with here are the main things that people are looking for in this field or profession.
So it's really doing digging and coming up with a good idea of what the companies are, what they're looking for, and then finding out what it's actually like on the ground.
I think this investigation is really important.
And I really like that idea of starting to flag job descriptions that you see and start looking for what's common across them that might be attracting you.
In a previous conversation you and I had, we talked about coming up with questions.
And I think as you investigate a role or a company, really thinking through your questions to get at what you're really interested in is important.
A lot of people, I think, stay too high level with their questions, but being really specific can give you important insight.
So let's move to the third step in the four eyes model, which is really initiating contact.
What advice advice do you have about how do you actually set up the first meeting or ask for that meeting?
How does contact initiation work?
It works in a few different ways.
What I would say is look at the job description, see what it says.
On LinkedIn, there are a few tools that they've rolled out recently that can be beneficial.
So one thing that we've been hearing a lot from people is basically that they don't know if a job is real and people get those text messages.
I don't know if you do, but, hey, I'm a recruiter for so -and -so and there are all these scams. So on on LinkedIn, they wanted to basically give people more reassurance that like, this is a real job, this is a company that's actually looking.
So now when you go into the job descriptions, or like job search results, there'll be little notes that say, oh, this is a verified job, they're actively looking at resumes, this is how long it takes to get back to you.
So it might also even say the person who's hiring for the role if they're a recruiter, so make sure that you're actually looking at the whole job posting to get a sense of can you use any additional information from there.
My biggest piece of advice is first apply because a recruiter can generally not do anything until your information is in the system.
So a lot of times people will see a job post on LinkedIn or somewhere else and they'll say, ooh, who do I know there?
And it's great to work those channels, but also you want to make sure your application gets in as soon as possible.
And then what you can do is then use your contacts and say, hey, I saw this this job I applied, can you give me any insight?
And even if they give you a referral afterward, like usually, you know, that person could message the recruiter and say, hey, I know this person, can you add me as a reference?
But what I would also say is if they list the recruiter, if they list any other details, you can find them also on LinkedIn and say, send them a message and say, hey, I just applied for this role.
I'm really interested in it.
Almost like, you know, know, your cover letter.
So make sure that you're sending those messages, even if they don't reply to you, it's still worth your time to do that.
What I'm hearing there that I think is so important, many things you said are really important, but putting yourself in the position of the recruiter or gatekeeper is really important.
Because we think as soon as I see a job I want, I'm going to try to find connections and figure out how I can get that job.
But in fact, there are well -known procedures that those companies and those jobs have to follow.
And if you're not playing that game, if you will, you're in trouble.
So I like that idea of work your network, but make sure you get it through and make sure that you're using language that is enticing.
Because essentially it's like a movie preview.
You're trying to get people interested and excited to take a little more time.
And thinking of it that way, I think changes everything because many people just want to list and itemize instead of saying, hey, here's something I spent some thought on.
Yeah. And I think we've talked about this before.
And it's something that I've been telling a lot lot of people think outside the box of like don't just think that just because you've been an accountant your entire life that you have to be an accountant now and what I sort of suggest to people is if you're making a career change but also even if you're not have your narrative that supports why you're the best candidate for these roles and make sure you're leading with that with your messages because if you just say hey I'm interested in this role you might get a look but they may not look too deeply they might say okay you probably sent that to
15 other recruiters But if you have the narrative that says, listen, yes, I'm making a career change, but here's why it's beneficial to me.
Or you set it up as saying I was made for this role, whatever your story is.
I think it makes them think twice and say, oh, you're worth 15 seconds instead of five.
I think it's not just for people changing careers, but somebody who's starting on a career to really think through what is the story you tell versus what are all the qualifications and checkboxes I do.
And taking the time to do that as you initiate contact are important.
We've talked certainly a lot about interviewing in the previous episodes.
So I'd like you to focus your response on, how have the tools changed?
Are we approaching interviewing differently now versus the way we might have?
I do think we've moved into a space where it is more of a conversation of, is this the right fit for both of us?
I think that's a good thing because employment is a business agreement and you won't want both parties to be happy.
be. The other thing is, I think we have many more tools to analyze what they're actually looking for.
So obviously, job descriptions are super powerful.
Not all job descriptions are great.
I'll get asked quite a bit, like, who writes these?
And I'll usually say, usually what happens is I said, some hiring manager who's never written a job description before in their life will write down the requirements that they want, they'll pass it along, it'll get cut and paste into something else that already existed.
And I said, you end up with this Frankenstein thing that is imperfect, but somewhere in there are the nuggets of what that hiring manager wants.
So just like we sort of talked about earlier, analyzing a bunch of different job descriptions, you do want to sometimes really take a look and say, okay, what in here is very specific?
And I think those are the pieces that will actually come from the hiring manager.
At LinkedIn, we have now a tool called Job Match. And essentially, when you're looking at a job job description, you could say, what does AI think?
Am I a fit for this role?
And it'll show you these are your weak points.
These are your strengths or this is where you align on your application.
So it can actually show you like the things you need to address or prepare for in an interview to say, I'm not really good with conflict management right now, but I've been taking courses to figure out how to actually do that.
So that way, when I do take charge of a team, I'll be prepared.
I hear two really important things there that the the actual interview itself is a conversation, and it's a conversation that these days, I think two things are true.
It's a little more equal in terms of status, so I'm not letting the employer really run the show.
I have to take an active part.
And I think they're a little less formal.
I think ever since the pandemic, these things have become just a little more informal, again, leaning into this idea of conversation.
So as you prepare, you need to think, how do I have a conversation versus how do I just answer the questions?
and I got excited when you talked about having a tool an AI help you see where you match and where you don't and I think we can use a tool I think we can use other people but to really get some external validation or encouragement in areas where you might be deficient for that role that can be really helpful because that sets you up for success one of the things we've talked about in a previous conversation is looking at people's career paths they're doing a job that you're interested in doing and seeing how they got there.
That's another way of trying to figure out where could I focus my efforts to better qualify.
So I really appreciate those two pieces.
This is actually my favorite way to use this tool.
When people are looking at a job description and they click that button and if it says you're not really strong with the majority of these requirements and you look at it and say, but I am.
And actually what it does is it uses all the information from your profile.
So if you're not actually presenting yourself appropriately on your profile for the jobs you want, it can show where your weak points are.
So maybe you don't think of something as a strength or just there's something that's not occurring to you to actually put on your profile or advertise about your professional strengths.
It can actually show you those holes in like how you're presenting yourself.
So job match doesn't only help you you identify how good of a match you are for the job, but it helps you identify where perhaps your profile or the way you're presenting yourself could be strengthened.
So you might say, I feel this is true about me, but the system is saying we don't see it.
So then you have to, again, adjust your narrative.
Thank you. So going through the four I's of identification, investigation, initiating contact, and interviewing is really about being conversational, creating a narrative, and leveraging tools like AI to help.
If we take a step back, the job search process can certainly be overwhelming.
Do you have advice and guidance about how to simplify or make it at least less stressful and easier for job seekers?
Yes. I think the first thing is that you really need to have a strategic job search. So a lot of people, they think that the job search is a numbers game.
And especially in this environment where you're facing hiring rates that are either going down or staying the same while we're seeing increased competition.
And it leads to a vicious cycle because you end up just applying everywhere with very generic resumes that are not targeted.
And then the result of that is that you get more discouraged.
So you send out more generic resumes and things like that, and it just keeps going and you feel worse and worse about yourself.
So having a targeted job search where you say, okay, this is what I want.
And the way I recommend people do that is once they have those those conversations and they sort of settle on, okay, I do want to work in sales in the healthcare industry.
Find the positions that you're most interested in and you could use that AI job search to say like, hey, I want to find sales jobs in healthcare in Tallahassee or something like that.
And it'll give you a bunch of job descriptions and you could take those and put them in any free AI tool and say, how can I construct my resume?
What is the most important traits of someone working in this area.
And really focus your job search on selling yourself as that, coming up with that narrative of, okay, here's where I'm coming from.
Here's how I'm pitching myself.
And again, you could use AI for that.
Don't ever take what it just spits out and say, hey, here's my stuff.
But use it as almost like that job search coach and use your time to really go after the jobs that you really want, that you hope that they'll just give you a moment.
Because right now, now so many people are applying to all jobs.
And in fact, that's one of the complaints I think we hear most from employers is we're just getting so many applications.
And that was actually one of the reasons we created Jobs Match, because we wanted people to be able to know whether or not they are actually a good match for that.
So what I hear from employers is the really good resumes stand out.
Because if you're going through so many that are so lackluster, when you find one one that is actually like, oh, wow, this person checks most of my boxes and actually wants to do this work.
It's just like the shining beacon for them.
So put your effort into actually doing a job search that is going to lead to where you want to go.
And then also understand that a successful job search is more than just applying.
It's talking to people, it's setting up those conversations.
And I always suggest thinking of it as odds.
What can you be doing that is going going to increase your odds of success.
You're never going to be guaranteed anything or be guaranteed on a timeline.
But what you could do is say, OK, if I do X, it's going to give me a little bit more of an edge.
And that will be networking.
That'll be taking courses online or even signing up for other courses in local colleges, volunteering to gain additional experience or also just taking time to go for a walk.
So it's really about just understanding that the job search process is a holistic thing.
And a lot of people say it's a full -time job and I'll always tell them, yes, but a full -time job usually comes with weekends.
So don't be afraid to build those into it because all of those things will make your life more tolerable during a very difficult time.
And then I think the most important part is have a support network.
All of that is really good advice.
The defining of success of a job search is really important.
It may or may not be getting that one job.
It might be planting the seeds that open up other opportunities.
It might be connecting with a broader community that can lead to a job or at least lead to support.
I think we put a tremendous amount of pressure on ourselves when the solo goal of a job search is to find that job instead of to make yourself a better candidate and to be open to the possibility of other things that come your way.
And then that notion of being strategic where instead of doing the shotgun approach and just sending out everything really focused can actually give you more of a sense of control and make it more manageable.
So I think that advice is really good because getting a job is a wonderful thing.
But if you get to that job fatigued and frustrated and stressed, then the best job is not going to at least start.
We'll be right back to continue our conversation.
Hi, Matt here. Harvard Business Review's IdeaCast is one of my go -to podcasts.
Every Tuesday, executive editor Allison Beard and editor -at -large Audie Ignatius have practical conversations with the world's leading management experts about the most pressing problems for leaders today.
For new ideas, cutting -edge research, and firsthand stories to help you lead, have IdeaCast at the top of your playlist. Find HBR's IdeaCast wherever you listen to podcasts.
That well. Before we end, I'm asking everybody who's participating in this Catalyze Your Career miniseries the same two questions.
Are you ready? Yes.
What is the best career advice you've ever received and why?
When I was younger, I remember someone who was a vice president of my college, and I felt really insecure about even as a college journalist going in interviewing people.
people. And he said, the benefit you have is that when you're new to a role or young, people will always underestimate you and you could always over deliver.
So even though I'm not young or new, I always tell myself that when I'm trying new things, because when you're new to something that people don't expect you to be good at it.
And I always remind myself I'm always going going to at least over deliver beyond their expectation, their base level expectation.
So I think that's the best career advice I ever received.
Leverage the newness and come at it with the focus on trying to be the best you can be, knowing that the expectations might be a little lower.
Very good. Second and final question.
What is the one thing you wish you would have done differently in the way you managed your career?
you? I think I would have been more proactive when I was younger, whether it was asking for raises or career development.
My first raise as a full time professional came to me because they felt bad for me because I had never asked for it.
I literally went into like my yearly review and I had recently changed managers at that point.
And she goes, we're giving you a raise.
And I was like, oh boy.
And she goes, you've never asked for one.
And I said, I didn't think I had to.
And I don't know why.
It was just this weird thing where I was like, I have to ask?
So I think I would be much more proactive in being an advocate for myself.
Being proactive and being an advocate, I think, captures a lot of what we talked about today, Andrew.
Thank you very much. the introduction to all these really cool tools job match AI assistance the proactive approach thinking about your job search as the narrative really important advice and I hope those listening can take value if they're looking for a job currently or if they're just thinking about what's next for them in their career thanks so much thank you thank you for joining us for another episode of our catalyze your career miniseries sponsored by LinkedIn please listen Listen to the prior two episodes, episode 184 with Catherine Fisher and episode 187 with Dory Clark.
To learn more from Andrew Seaman, listen to episode 151.
This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams, with special thanks to the LinkedIn crew, especially Emily Reeves.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder with thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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