Hello and welcome back to Hot Pursuit, a podcast about creating conversations where nothing is off limits.
This podcast is produced by Asian Boss Girl.
I'm Em, the older sister you've always wanted.
I'm Jen, the cheese ball in your snack drawer.
And I'm Madeline, your girl who thinks everything really is that deep.
Madeline, I love your lip color.
Where'd you get it?
I got it from your drawer.
From my drawer?
Yeah.
From her drawer.
That's disgusting.
Why?
I wish you would have asked.
Like, I hate sharing lip stuff.
Oh, because of the germs.
It's disgusting.
Yeah, she's mentioned that before.
Yeah, were you not listening?
I said you could use whatever you wanted, but not the lip stuff.
That's actually really gross.
I didn't hear that.
I'm so sorry.
I didn't hear that part.
Today we're talking about fighting with friends.
Was that so scary?
Annoyance and conflict is the cost of intimacy and being close with people.
And so we know, between the three of us, that fighting is inevitable and it's uncomfortable, but it's necessary for closeness.
So we wanted to talk about that today. and how annoying we are to each other.
The toxicity really comes out in fights.
We wanted to talk about our experiences with fighting well, fighting poorly and the takeaways we've had from our past fights with other people and with each other.
Yes, we have fought with each other.
All the time.
Surprise, surprise.
Yeah.
It's like annoying how often we fight.
Yeah.
It really is.
Like, it'll be like 9 a.m. and Em's like, I didn't like that tone.
I'm like, oh my god.
Yeah, we can talk about that.
I just woke up like, I'm sorry.
I was like, I just asked how your sleep was.
Like, what is this tone about?
So let's start with what our attachment styles are, because that often informs how much you fight and how you don't fight.
As an avoidant, as head girly.
Let me start.
Let me start.
This girl avoids conflict at all costs.
Like she will dance all the way around the bush and be like, what bush?
There's no Bush here.
You know that gif from Forrest Gump where he's like, That's me from conflict.
Wait, okay, wait.
What are the four attachment styles?
There's secure, which means your caregivers were very responsive and present between the ages of like 12 months to two.
There's avoidant, which means you want love, but you also want control more than that.
You want to control... like the inflow and outflow of it.
Like if it's too much, then it makes you want to leave.
If it's not enough, then you're like, well, I don't need you.
There's anxious.
Sub tweets.
I love it.
I know you guys really well.
There's anxious where you want love and you're so afraid to lose it.
So you'll adjust yourself.
You'll pull back.
You'll move forward just to keep that balance of love that you so desperately want.
Once you have it, then you're comfortable.
And then there's disorganized, which is just like a mix of avoidant and anxious.
I have a friend that's this one.
It's like, I want love, but I don't.
But I want control, but I also don't want to lose you.
That one's the most chaotic.
Yeah, my sister is that.
One of my good friends is that.
You're just like, what are you thinking?
They'll start avoidant and then be like, I don't need you.
And then three days later, they're like, oh my God, but I really need you.
Yeah, just like, what do you want?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Jen, you said you were avoidant.
I'm avoidant.
Okay.
So that means I don't pick fights.
I hate when fights are picked with me and I will just shut down and absorb like a sponge.
Yeah.
Yeah, so if anyone's avoidant out there, I know I see you.
And we're going to talk about how to grow and try and be better.
Do you explode or do you just exit the relationship?
I will convince myself that I don't care.
That's the way that I try and like, yeah, I know it's not good.
It's not good.
I don't need you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would rather like shut myself off and like retreat and be like ah well, I guess it didn't mean that much anyway.
Blah blah, blah.
Instead of, leaning in to be like, let's work on this together.
So that's the gut instinct.
It's like, I need to run.
I need to retreat.
I need to go protect myself and leave and exit the situation.
Yeah.
So it's kind of like you draw the conclusion for them.
Like they didn't care anyways.
Yeah.
So I'm just going to leave.
Yeah.
Which is so counterintuitive to like close, intimate relationship.
You know where you need to be close and you need to rub up against each other and have the friction.
But I'll be like, I didn't need it anyway.
Yeah.
You don't trust them.
Yeah, to pursue you after that yeah yeah yeah, i want to talk about where that comes from later but yeah, let's go to youtube because that is.
Yes, i am um, severely anxiously attached.
I value closeness, and sometimes that manifests as being clingy, being sticky, being overly inquisitive about like are you okay?
Did I do anything wrong?
Did I offend you?
What about me?
Do you not like?
And I am so sensitive to even like the tiniest signs of distancing so, even like, if you don't text me back after two hours, i'm like something's off.
I did something and of course it was all my fault, and i don't even consider that someone else has like another life, because it's all about me, Says the Karen.
Yeah.
No, okay, yeah.
Last week I showed up to hang out with my friend and they showed up really somber, not very happy, and I was like, oh no, what did I do?
And then I come to find out they... had a really rough day beforehand and they were just so preoccupied with what they were going through that they couldn't be completely present but of course i don't consider that i consider what can i control what can i do for the situation so that like we can be happy together because i think anxious attached people need a lot of reassurance that like everything's okay they want everyone to be happy and that manifests into a lot of issues later on yeah how about you how about you mads i think i'm secure You're secure?
I am.
Excuse you.
What is that like?
Wait, okay, no, I can see how you would be secure.
You have a really good relationship with your parents.
I'm not naturally secure, though.
I think it's like secure has come from a lot of excavating.
So I'm not, I'm not, like, I have a lot of problems, but I've gotten to a point.
Where I am now secure, I think.
I mean, it sounds like so pretentious to say.
No, I think it's good to know because no one's ever stuck in an attachment style.
You can change it.
Okay, how did you become secure?
Yeah, our goal is to become like you.
Tell us how so we can be like, how are you healthy?
Tell us.
When you guys say those things about like being anxious or avoidant, I like resonate with that too.
So I don't.
Maybe you're anxious avoidant.
Maybe you're disorganized.
I'm disorganized actually, maybe.
And has done the work to become secure, perhaps.
So what does that feel like in a relationship?
Or just say in a new friendship when you notice, oh, their mood isn't really great.
What goes through your head? um it's more about like what are they going through versus like what could i have done i i don't know it's it's less like it's more outward facing then it's it's also it's outward facing but it's also like very secure in knowing how i show up so i don't like if they thrust something at me like i can call out if it's false i don't have to be worried about like like not understanding if something is not true Wow.
What are you thinking of?
I'm just thinking about our fight, like, a few weeks ago.
Which one? when I was like, I don't like your tone.
What is this tone?
But you were really quick to be like, where is this coming from?
I think that's one thing that Madeline does really well.
Whenever someone asks a question or there's a tone, she doesn't ask or she doesn't react first.
She asks, where is this coming from?
What is the basis behind this question?
I react in my head, though.
In my head.
In your head, yeah.
But you do give someone the space to kind of explain themselves before you react outwardly.
Thank you.
Yeah.
That's really good.
No, I think that's something that I want to learn from her.
It's not how I feel.
And I also think that you're very confident about the way you give love and the relationship you have with other people.
It doesn't threaten your sense of like, oh my gosh, do I need to push or pull?
You're like I am here and I know what I've given.
And I know that they feel, or are confident in that too.
So I think that helps too.
Like you are secure as a person, therefore you are secure in your relationally.
You are like a stump with deep roots.
Like this coffee table.
And you don't need anyone else to affirm and validate that.
And it's because I have drug other people through my toxic behaviors.
And we have learned, so now we are here.
Stay tuned to hear how you become secure.
We need to pay attention right now.
I'm honestly trying to learn that.
I learn a lot of things from her.
She just does what she wants without really asking for permission, asking if it's okay. and that's okay no it's good you don't even have to like she doesn't think about how like oh how would this action be judged by these people she just does it yeah yeah the confidence yeah yeah there's confidence and then if there's confidence in other people will be like okay yeah yeah yeah so it's like self-fulfilling yeah Sure.
Yeah.
Just take it.
Take it.
Receive.
Yeah.
It's okay.
You already know.
Sorry, I'm insecure.
So we have an avoidant.
We have an anxious.
And we have a secure and or disorganized.
We're not very sure.
Ex-disorganized.
Current secure, okay.
So, considering all of this, how has our stance on conflict change over time and what is it today like?
How do we view conflict now, now that we are maybe more developed, a little bit slightly?
Yeah mads, i'm curious what your stance on conflict is today.
I think that if someone is picking a fight with you, it's actually a sign that they care.
It might not feel that way.
It might feel like they're actually just poking at your character or trying to attack you, but it's actually a plea for like I want this to work.
You know, depending on how developed we are, how emotionally, like mature we are, like it might not.
It might not feel that way, it might not be productive.
But like ultimately, it's always someone just asking for like, why aren't you trying to hear me out?
At the end of the day, that's what everybody just wants.
If someone is willing to have conflict or trying to pick a fight, that's still a good sign.
If not, if they don't even think it's worth it, and they're checked out.
To me that's like They've given up on the relationship.
And there's nothing to save.
But you have to have someone that's willing to do that.
And it's really uncomfortable.
But it's also why we want to talk about it, because we want people to feel more comfortable to do the uncomfortable things.
Because if you don't participate in that, you could be robbing yourself and the other person.
A beautiful, deeper relationship.
Yeah, I like that you said that because the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
It's that Taylor Swift song.
It isn't love, it isn't hate, it's just indifference.
Conflict is so beautiful.
Similar to what Maddie was saying, whenever someone brings up a grievance to me, I am so grateful.
And I'm so flattered because I'm like when someone brings up something that like oh, you did this thing to me, To me, that's them showing their cards and being like I am being vulnerable and letting you know that what you do affects me and you have power in my life.
And so when someone brings up a grievance, it really makes me so happy.
And of course I'm like all right, we have to enter into this fight, but I'm so glad I get to do it with you because you have invited me into this experience where we get to bond and hopefully grow this relationship after this.
Kind of related to that of uncovering each other's needs.
I've been thinking about this concept lately around how all of our hearts have different languages.
And when we fight, we're learning the language of another person's heart of how they're wired.
So I think a lot of fights happen because I'm trying to love someone in a way that is not how their heart needs.
And so there's a miscommunication.
Or I'm trying to love them with my heart language, but that's not the one that they speak.
And so when we fight with each other, I feel like you're actually learning new words in their language to know how to speak to them in the way that they need.
So there's a fight that Maddie and I had, where there's dimensions of your heart that I didn't know was so deep and so meaningful for you that I got to know through that fight.
But only when there's friction.
Can those things get uncovered?
And otherwise, we're unaware of the codes of how our hearts are wired and stuff.
That's a really good point because I think a lot of times people's hearts are to love well.
Everyone just wants to love the people in their lives really well, but they love from the perspective of what they need.
Yeah.
And that's often not what the other person needs.
And the other person will feel like this person is trying and they'll feel love from it, but it's not necessarily going to hit them as deep as you would want to.
So that's an excellent point.
Point yeah, so like, if i speak like chinese and i'm trying to like communicate with someone and like give them words of affirmation to someone who speaks spanish, like there's, there's i'm not doing it in the language that they know how to receive it right, versus if i learn that new adjective or that new phrase for them, they're like ah like, that made me feel like i felt that because i understood it in my language versus, but i find, like a lot of times we're speaking from our own yeah, heart languages.
Yes yeah, and they can, they can sense your intent, but if it is delivered in a way that they don't really care about, then it can completely miss the mark.
Yeah yeah, it's kind of like all these gaping needs that they have in their heart language that are like not being met yeah yeah, because you're just doing it your way.
Yeah, it's kind of like fighting styles yeah yeah, it's like you're trying to fight in using taekwondo, but you're trying to do mma and there's completely different rules, and so, if you like, if you, if you like, go below the belt, you're like what you're just like that's.
That's not how this works.
Excuse me disqualified yeah, yeah.
So i think it would be really interesting to see um to talk about, like our fighting styles.
Oh yeah yeah, like choose your fighter.
So back to the, the religious background.
Um, there's this rule where you shouldn't let the sun go down while you're still angry.
And I really love that.
Of course, I think it ignores a lot.
Some people need a lot of time to kind of process.
But for my family it's like okay, We're gonna have this fight, but we gotta get it over with by the end of the day.
So we would always we would fight it out, say the mean things, say we would yell, we would scream, say everything that hurt us, everything.
We did get the last word in cry, take some time away, take a time out, maybe an hour or two, but by the end of the day we always come back together, talk it out, say i'm sorry, hug it out, and then we get to go to sleep happy, and so that was the kind of style that my parents taught me, and especially with anxious attachment styles, it works really well.
What you need yeah, because i'm like i cannot do by yourself.
I cannot Because if I stew in this conflict, of course I'm going to go through all the different scenarios, everything that I said.
If you need alone time to process two, three business days, I could not do that.
I love stewing.
I just villainize them in my head.
It's the worst.
That's so mean.
It is.
It's really awful.
No, I can't do that.
Because I...
At the same time, I'm like, they're probably doing that too.
Oh, I am.
I do that too.
I'm fighting with you even after the fight is over.
And to me, that's not loving.
If the point of a fight is to hear each other out and solve the conflict, then let's get this over with.
But if the point of the fight is to win and that's what I feel like a lot of people do, of course they're gonna need time to like think of every single point to back me into a corner so that I just like yield right well.
But the other thing too is like for me, like sometimes I need time because yeah, if I am to speak, like all of those really terrible things that will cause cracks, like will come out and like I know that I don't want to be speaking in the heat of that moment, that will hurt someone that, like you, can't take back, and so like i need to like sit away from them so i can like process my own thoughts that are like villainizing and mean and demoralizing, but then like understand, like okay, that's not actually how i feel.
Like what do i need to say to that person?
You know, I don't mind that, though.
Time to let empathy rise.
I'd rather someone just tell me the meanest things that they can because at least that's truthful.
I don't want you to sugarcoat and present it in a way that's not honest.
I just want to hear what your heart really thinks, so that we can attack that together.
If you still have those thoughts and feelings in your heart but you're not revealing that to me, then that means there's going to be residual resentment or something that you are holding back and you're not revealing to me.
So for me, I'm like, come at me.
I can take it.
Tell me everything you think about me and let's talk about it and let's get done with it by the end of the day, because for me it's just like fights are healing and i need, i need to.
I need to finish this up because you can't wait by 10 pm.
Yeah please, So I can go to bed at the bedtime.
Because with conflict, if I'm thinking about it, I'm going to think about it.
I'm not like that type of person that can watch a horror movie and then like go about my day.
I'm going to think about it.
I'm going to stew on it.
And then it's going to affect my skin.
The only thing that matters- And that is not good.
The real horror movie is the uneven skin texture after.
So yeah, my fighting style is very efficient.
Very fast.
It doesn't seem like y'alls are very efficient.
Honestly, I would choose to go up against you than to go against me.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's very good because you're moving towards resolution.
I'd rather fight with her than you two.
Yeah.
No, same.
I agree.
I agree.
So you fight to win.
So here's my fighting style.
Okay.
Yours is very sweet.
I'm just going to expose myself.
Mine's like, it's sweet, but continue.
Well, it's like, it's like moving towards a productive goal.
She's like, it's not sweet.
She's mean.
I can be mean.
She can be really mean.
Yeah.
Do you fight dirty?
Yeah.
She goes with a jugular.
I do.
She twists a knife.
Yeah, but it's true.
And she means it in the moment.
But she's like, by 10 p.m. though, you need to recover from it by 10 p.m.
I'm going to apologize for everything I said.
But I did mean it.
And she will be remorseful.
Yeah.
And then feel really bad.
You come out with a couple.
And then the guilt comes back two years later too.
Oh my gosh!
The amount of times you've been like, I shouldn't have been so mean.
The way she threw the mic.
That's for another episode.
I'm so sorry you know who you are.
Hand in hand.
I'm so ashamed.
So I don't know that, you know, well.
I was mean, but I shouldn't have said that.
I still mean it.
I shouldn't have said that.
Cut in too early when she's like, and I mean everything I say.
It's true.
I do.
I do.
But sometimes every being honest is not helpful either.
Yeah.
So Jay's toxic.
Yeah.
So I was doing some reflecting and because I'm initially hurt, I armor up.
Because I'm hurt.
Inside, there's a throbbing heart that is just... A soft, squishy heart.
Yeah, a soft, squishy heart.
But all you see is just steel armor, okay?
And I will just... A fortress.
Yeah, I thought back to many fights, and I'm like, it follows the same pattern every time, okay?
Ready?
That's the worst feeling.
Debate, debate, debate, debate, and then cry me.
And then I'm saying what I actually feel.
So all the armor falls and I'm like, it's because you hurt me in this way.
And then we move towards a productive conversation of reconciliation.
But there was a fight that Mads and I have fight actually.
I think about this fight all the time and i think about it when i'm fighting with other people actually, and i follow things that we did in that fight with other people, which is really good.
It's a template, it's so good, it was really good.
It was like one of the healthiest fights that i had.
Having to coordinate a lot of, like travel plans to do a visit, oh yeah, oh my god, Okay.
So we basically had miscommunicated somewhere along the way of different expectations.
Basically, I was waiting for confirmation for Jay so that I could book a flight, and we were one or two weeks out.
Yes.
I was just like, every day, I'm like, okay, let us know.
I thought she knew that I was waiting for her, but then she thought that she had already told us just proceed, which was not what happened.
So every day, I was just like, I remember this one.
Okay, okay, yeah, I was watching from the sidelines.
So every day, I was just like, where is this?
And then I got sick of it, so I sent an inflammatory text.
What did you say?
I remember the text messages started with okay, wait.
So while we're on this topic, I have a bone to pick.
Oh, no, not the bone to pick.
And I was like, oh, my gosh, what's she about to say?
Oh, my gosh.
You feel your heart drop.
Yeah.
I was so mad.
I remember.
I remember.
Wait, so how did you feel when you saw the text?
Well, it was a long paragraph, first of all.
And honestly, as I was reading it, I was arguing with it.
In your head.
As I was reading it.
Yeah.
You were building your defense.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I felt like it was unreasonable.
We had a couple exchanges over the course of like a few days over text, which I hate fighting over text.
You like fighting over text, don't you?
I like fighting over text.
You do?
Yeah.
Are you about to fight, guys?
I will not fight with you because I'm going to FaceTime you.
I like fighting over text because you have some time to think of what you're going to say.
Because when you're just in the moment, you're saying whatever just to make sure that you're being heard.
Versus over text, you can take some time away.
You can be like...
You don't have to respond to them right away.
I mean, you could, but then you can like craft the perfect argument, edit, go back, delete.
Like, oh, I didn't say that well.
Yeah, so you can take your time, but you, you like to fight in person.
I like to fight in person because i feel i feel like in person, when the person's in front of me or over facetime, like my heart just softens, like so much faster, because you, you see the micro expressions.
Yeah, human being, this person, you're really smart, so you debate me back.
Really well too.
I'll play whatever game you want to play.
Yeah.
It would be like, when you said this, this was blah, blah, blah, because blah, blah, blah, blah.
We're literally taking sentences from each other and deconstructing them.
It took us like a couple circles, a couple circles, like we said the same thing for like 30 minutes, but like we were really trying.
We were really trying, but like failing.
Yeah, you thought, just because i was picking this fight, that like i loved you less.
I remember thinking oh, she thinks that I don't love her anymore because of this, which is false.
I'm pissed and she's wrong, but it doesn't mean that I don't.
It doesn't mean that I don't love you any less.
Yeah, it's like when you said this or when you did this, what I heard and what I felt was X, Y and Z, And so it's almost like you told me the story that you were in And then I could finally see that.
Oh, of course, if you thought that you were waiting for me and I kept ignoring that, you would feel hurt.
You would feel like that need was not acknowledged.
And I think that made me feel what you were feeling.
So what were the elements in that fight that you felt were very necessary in order to get through it?
That's a good question.
Yeah, like what makes the template.
First thing she said was like i just want to start this by saying i love you so much, like i care about you so deeply.
Our friendship means the world to me, and like we're gonna figure this out.
I feel like that was so the reassurance that was so essential and also just like set the tone so clearly for the rest of the conversation of just like that is the most important and that's what we're working towards and that's what we're gonna like have this conversation with you know.
In the like midst of the fight, after we were both sharing our like different sides of the story, where Mads would also like specifically say things back to me.
She's like okay, so what I'm hearing, I think that you felt was X, Y and Z X, Y and Z X, Y and Z, And that was really healthy, because i think sometimes, like so much gets missed, even in the midst of a fight, that hearing her say it back to me was like oh my gosh yeah, she really gets it, she really understands it, and we're kind of wrapping up.
She's like is there anything that you feel like you didn't get to say yet?
Still, she is really good, she's so good like ensuring almost like the cleanup is like really neat, because she wants everything that you might have.
Like I wanted to say that, but already passed it.
She gave opportunity again to be like is there anything else that you feel like I don't understand fully, or that you didn't get to say, or a feeling that you had at any point?
No, sometimes there are.
Yeah.
They'll be like, as I thought about it more, I feel like you didn't maybe fully understand this thing that I said and I'm like, oh okay, let's talk about it again.
There's no need to feel like it has to be cleaned up in one go.
There's often these waves of new feelings.
There's so many emotions.
It can be reopened.
Yeah, reopened again.
Let's more.
Yeah, clean up the wound more.
Because there's so much happening.
And I feel like when it's happening, it feels like it's all happening at light speed.
So it's so easy to miss something within yourself.
It's so easy to miss something that you saw the other person do.
And you don't realize it until you're in the shower and then pissed again.
So it's important to ask, is there something?
You hated this fight, I guess.
I hate all fights.
I don't like fighting.
Fighting sucks.
Do you guys have a fight that comes to mind for both of you?
The person I fight most with is Madeline.
No, but okay.
I love fighting with her because we are so efficient.
She's textbook fighting partner for someone who is anxiously attached.
And I think the first... Okay, so when we were both in corporate, we didn't use...
Skype or anything, we use Gchat to talk to each other all day.
We would talk to each other all day during work.
That would be my first thing.
Every day I sign into my laptop, I log in, check my emails.
DM Madeleine.
And so, like in our earlier years of our friendship, maybe like the first two years, we would always be G-chatting.
And then I notice, of course, over text that is a thing like things do get lost in translation and so, and like, of course, like I'm all about tone because I'm super sensitive to that, and so sometimes she would say things and I knew her intention was not to be hurtful, but I just wanted her to know like hey when, When you say this, like I'm sensitive in this way and maybe next time you can be a little bit more careful.
I'm kind of an asshole, so.
Yeah, she is.
She is.
And she is.
I just am.
I was like complaining about, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so tired.
And then you said, I'm exhausted.
And I was like, I had a really hard day.
And you're like, I've had the roughest week.
Yeah.
And I was like, And I was like, I don't feel like you're listening to me.
So I remember something that was new to me was to confront and bring up a conversation.
I like how we're holding hands.
Yeah.
But I trusted her enough to take it well.
So I was like, hey, I feel like you don't really hear me out when I say stuff like that.
And I feel like you aren't listening to me when you like.
I know that you are listening to me because you're saying something related, but i want you to ask about why am i?
Why am i so tired?
Why did i have a bad week?
Because it really didn't feel like you were hearing me out.
It was more.
You were just trying to relate and so there was messaging.
I was trying to get across and there wasn't, there wasn't any feedback.
It was just you wanted to feel seen.
Yeah, it's just like i'm driving on the street.
You're like yeah, me too.
You don't apologize?
She doesn't apologize.
She'll explain what she does, and then she'll be like, but I hear you, and I'll do better next time.
So it's kind of like I'm not going to be sorry for relating to you in the way that I relate to you, but now I can see what you need and I will provide what you need in the future.
Unless I hurt you.
Unless you hurt me, yeah.
I don't apologize.
Yeah, but she tends to apologize towards the tail end of the discussion.
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Once you get your argument out.
And also once I understand what's happening.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think something that I've learned from you though, is because you are willing to bring things up that are really like, dismissible.
I feel comfortable enough with you, out of like everyone in my life, to just bring up like even little tiny things that make me uncomfortable, because I know that it's welcome, which is, like not something that I felt anywhere else.
Like, if I don't, if I'm like the thermostat is too cold or like I don't know, like I would just take that with another friend and be like I'll just like suffer for like five days.
But for you, i know that you would be more willing to like adjust your discomfort in the name of like friendship for me, and so, like i'll, i'll just bring anything up.
Yeah yeah, i will do anything for friendship.
She really will any anything, Because the default for us as women, and then especially if you're avoidant, is to just absorb.
Absorb, absorb, absorb.
But then that's so so much disconnect and discomfort and disconnection from each other that it's not healthy.
So if you never fight with your friends, one of you is absorbing something at all times.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that's so true.
Because if you really think about it, and you're like, I value the longevity of this friendship.
And if I keep absorbing these things yeah, this is not going to last very long.
It's cheating yourself and cheating the other person.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's just like if i want us to be best friends forever, then you have to ask me about my day.
And air the grievances now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And nothing is too small to bring up.
Literally nothing.
Yeah.
If you really trust the person.
Yeah.
And if they have the skin in the game.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What was our last fight?
It's so stupid.
I don't know.
There's so many of us track.
What are things you both do in a fight.
That is really healthy, that you're like ah, i wish i could fight with everybody like this, or that i try to fight with people.
We're really fast, really efficient, like honest.
At the beginning, every time i fight with mads i'm like yes, we get to get this out of the way.
Our friendship's gonna strengthen and it's gonna be over in 10 minutes.
It's very fast.
Yeah, it's very fast.
We don't have to go in circles.
No, no.
Yeah, like you say something, I'm like, got it.
I say something, you're like, got it.
Got it, yeah.
Yeah, and then it's so fast.
And then sprinkled throughout the angry tones, it's like, I love you.
Yeah, I love you too.
Heart, ha ha.
We like to keep the mood light.
And I think the elements that I really appreciate are when yeah, taking the step back, being like OK, I hear you.
You said this.
This is how I see it.
But I can see that you would feel like I just like that same story.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Just for someone to acknowledge, I can see why you would feel that way is so affirming.
It's huge.
It's like, okay, finally, you get it.
Because they make you feel sane.
Because when you're arguing, sometimes you feel crazy.
Especially over the smallest things.
You're just like, oh, this doesn't really matter.
But for them to be like, no, yeah, yeah, this does matter.
I can see why you would feel this way.
And I think she does a really good job of that.
Yeah.
Hair flip?
Oh.
Wonderful, wonderful.
Yeah.
Glad to see that we're good at fighting.
Actually, I'm good at fighting.
No, you are good.
You're really good at fighting.
No, she is good at fighting.
I really just want people to fight with you so they can get trained up and learn what the right model is and then go out and have better relationships with the rest of the people in their life.
I do not.
I want everyone to fight with you.
I do not consent.
I do not want to be fighting with people.
I think people who fight with her feel better afterwards, but she doesn't.
Yeah, it sucks.
Do you have like residual feelings afterwards?
Oh, yeah.
The residual bitterness is rough.
Yeah, of course it sucks.
I'm just like I'll just villainize you and then like say all these mean things in my head which I know are not true, because I'm like well, it's not.
I know it's not who that person is because that person loves me so much.
But like I just want to make you the enemy because you wronged me and you make me feel gross and you make me feel stupid and whatever.
And all these things.
But then, like I know that's also just my it's just like lies, you know yeah yeah, but the nature of the heart is not logical.
Yeah exactly, you have to process, you have to like argue with yourself.
You kind of have to let yourself go there and like hate the person so that yeah yeah, come back and love them yeah yeah, let it out.
Allow yourself to feel the full extent yeah, of the hate and the hurt.
Yeah, because if you don't, then the seeds of bitterness just yeah, that's so true.
It's so true yeah, you'll hold on to that stuff.
I hate fighting yeah, especially with the people that i love the most.
I know, do you ever have like a fight that ends poorly?
I have had many fights that have ended poorly because i'd be picking them all the time.
I'm just an instigator.
She says.
She says she hates fights, but yeah, but they're important, Your needs are important.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fights that have ended not well.
Or makes you feel like when you're in the middle of the fight, you're just like ah, I just this is not going well.
What makes you guys give up in a fight?
Mads.
Like you were saying, if the other person you can see literally does not hear what you're saying or they're just incapable of putting themselves in your shoes, then I don't see the point of continuing.
Because if you just think that my perspective is wrong, I can't change your mind on that and I'm not going to waste my effort to try and do that.
I know where you stand.
I've tried to meet you, but me meeting you has just given you satisfaction as opposed to actually helping you.
Try to participate in this fight.
It's like you cross the bridge to them, and then they're just like, oh, thank you for arriving here.
And they're not trying to cross the bridge to get to you at all.
And then I'm like, okay, well.
Then you'll have to concede.
And then so they feel happy and you're like, well, they heard me out zero.
They didn't hear you.
Yeah.
But you spent the effort to hear them.
Yeah.
It's not fair.
That's painful.
When the fight isn't fair.
Yeah.
I hate that.
I'm mad about it.
Unsatisfying.
And then you're just like, all right, well.
You're like, cool.
I'm going to go eat some chips now.
Mm-hmm.
Like, I give up.
It's just not worth it.
What about you, Em?
What are fights that end poorly?
Or fights where you're in the middle of it and you just you feel it and you're like I don't think this is going well.
Yeah, I think it's similar to Mads, where I feel like this person is just trying to win and they're trying to be heard.
And I can feel that if they are going to be heard, then they'll be satisfied with that.
There will be no like reciprocation.
Yeah, the point is not to win.
Yeah, the point is for the relationship yeah, to survive.
I've been in fights where I've been backed into the corner at every single angle and and I'm just like this is not going to end.
Well, because they don't care at all about what I have to say, how they hurt me, they just care about winning.
So yeah, sometimes i'm just like okay, you're right, all right, but it's, it's really sad because you know this relationship can cannot, move forward.
This is, this is the end of the road baby like, this is as far as we'll go.
Some people do feel satisfied with that, and so, for the person that is on the other side, they're like well, If you're not going to hear me out, how are we supposed to get closer if the purpose of a fight is to repair and to understand each other?
In healthy conflict with people that are more developed or mature, that have worked on themselves, there can be space for both of your hurts to coexist at the same time, which growing up and a lot of conflicts that I've been in the past.
It never felt like that.
It felt like there's only room for their hurt and so I just have to absorb my own.
I always felt it was my responsibility to absorb my own and my own needs that were unmet because there wasn't space.
What does it feel like when there's both hurts out there?
Out there it's.
It's hard at the beginning because both people are still like in their own hurts, but then, when both people can step into the other person's hurts, then you feel connection, then you feel intimacy.
Almost feels like you're in two separate hot tubs and you like, get to the other one and they get into yours and you're like oh, what a visual.
I don't know if I like that.
Hot tub.
I don't want to be in a hot tub with you.
Sometimes you'll fight with someone that they're not ready to do that with you yet.
And so that's a whole thing of like fighting with developed people versus those that have more like triggers or traumas that they can't see past.
That leads into things that makes me give up.
The biggest thing that I get really triggered by and I just want to disengage is passive aggressiveness.
The thing that irks me the most is the fake sorries.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
I have given those.
Oh, generously.
I'm sorry I'm such a bad friend.
I'm so sorry.
Like that?
No, no.
Yeah, really.
No, actually, but it's worse because sometimes they'll be like, I'm sorry I voiced my opinion.
And you're like, I don't think you're sorry.
I'm sorry you felt that way.
I just don't know what to do with it.
Yeah, like, sorry I'm such a bad friend.
I guess I'm just meant to be alone for the rest of my life.
I think you're probably better off without me.
Let's wrap this up.
Stuff like that.
She's like, you can see her like anger rising, like red-o-meter.
Because what do you do with that?
Yeah.
Something like that.
You can't do anything with that.
And they know that.
And they know that.
That's manipulation.
I know that.
Okay.
Oh, I cannot wait.
I can't wait, too.
Well, actually, no, this, yeah.
Let's talk about after a fight.
After the fight.
Oh, these are critical.
These are essential.
Yeah, because you can have a really good fight.
You guys understand each other.
Everything has been said.
But what about afterwards?
Yeah.
This is so important.
Do we hug it out?
It's beautiful.
I love aftercare.
It's aftercare.
Jay.
Okay, no.
Aftercare of a fight.
I like that.
We can call it that.
Yeah.
Fight after care.
So like what is the healing balm after a fight that you guys really need?
This is the best part.
It really is.
This is the best part.
This is what makes the fight so worth it.
Is there anything that would make you feel better after a fight, or is it just like fights in general?
I think I just need time to like process.
Yeah.
I think what we do really well is we just shower each other in I love yous.
Thank you so much.
There's thank yous.
There's I love yous.
Thank you so much for bringing this up.
Next time, I'm going to be more cognizant.
So there's actionable steps.
Actionable steps.
We got action items.
Plan for the future.
We have reassurance.
Like, I love you so much.
Just know, every single time we talk like I'm so excited to talk to you and I'm so glad you brought this up.
I'm so glad you brought this up is a good one.
Good affirmation.
Like, glad that this happened so we can have clarity so that we can move forward.
Bark it at each other.
Yeah, this is really good.
I think.
I think that's good to say because it's like i i respect what you have to say.
In our relationship.
I really want this to keep going.
I love you so much.
Yeah, i can't wait to see you next.
Yeah well, it's also interesting because, like i know, like For you specifically, because I know you so well, I know that there's certain things that when we get in a fight, I know you're going to question not me, do I think, but things that you are insecure about.
That I can reaffirm.
You are very smart.
I value what you bring to the table.
I care about every small feeling.
So like I can say those things to you and like know that that's going to like kind of like impact you in a moment that matters, because in a fight you're so vulnerable you're going to be questioning like all those little thoughts of like maybe this doesn't matter about me anymore or maybe, like she doesn't think that I am this way, even though she said it in the past.
So like re-strengthening those things and just being like I'm happy to give this to you, even in a time like this where it sucks.
Yeah, exactly.
That was really well said.
Yeah, that was so good.
It's true, though.
Because we're very vulnerable with each other, so you know all of my insecurities.
And I'm sure you're very cognizant of when we're in a fight.
These are the things that I feel are naked and laid bare.
And so you're able to cover them up and be like, I'm not attacking this.
We're just attacking the problem.
This has nothing to do with who you are as a person.
That person that you are is consistent.
Earlier you said that fighting for some people is kind of like a workout, where you break the muscles and then it comes back together again and then it strengthens the relationship.
That's how I see it.
Every single time there's a conflict, this is an opportunity for closeness and to bond even more.
To know each other more.
It's really exciting.
It's like, oh my gosh, we're stepping into this new stage of our relationship.
Let's go.
That's the thing though, the more you do it, the more comfortable you are, the less scary it gets.
With Em, I'm just like, come at me.
What do you have today?
Give me your worst.
It's literally not scary anymore.
I'm like, okay, if someone were to be like, do you and Em fight?
I'd be like, she's probably got something on the list right now.
It's one of our favorite activities.
I wouldn't say that.
But the more you do it well, the less scary it becomes and you learn that it's like a tool.
Because the goal is to know each other more deeply.
Yes.
The goal is to know every part of the other person.
Not just the good parts.
The bad parts.
The squishy parts.
The difficult parts.
The ones that are more vulnerable.
And to hold that as like a precious thing in your hand and be like I will take care of this part of your heart that I know is like a little weaker and a little colder.
Yeah.
And I love this part of your heart.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, you guys.
Yeah.
So we are excited to talk about this topic, even though it gives us the heebie-jeebies sometimes, because fighting is inevitable.
It is beautiful.
It is intimate.
And we encourage you to reflect on maybe your own fights, and which ones have been beautiful and good that you felt closer to after.
And also the ones that sucked and why they sucked.
Why they failed.
Why they failed, what your triggers are, how you show up, what your tendencies are.
All that goodness is part of being in deep, close relationship, which is what is most important.
That's the goal.
Yeah.
Fighting is fun for some, mostly sucks, but inevitable and beautiful in relationship.
And with that, who wants to borrow my lip gloss?
Go forth and fight.
Yeah, we love to see it, we love to hear about it.
Yeah, we release episodes every week, so we would love if you would join us.
And with that, hot pursuit is out.
