Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science vs. Today we're pitting facts against...fiber.
That's right. The world's least sexy nutrient has been getting a glow up recently.
You might think of fiber as something your grandpa kept going on about, but all over TikTok and socials, the sexiest people online, are obsessed with it.
Fiber, that's the answer.
Fuel your body with fiber.
I need to eat more fiber, and so do you.
It'll change the way that you think of food forever.
People say that this one little nutrient packs a huge punch. It'll supercharge your gut.
Say goodbye to gut inflammation, and hello to the best poos in town.
Start eating food that is rich in fiber and be dropping logs daily.
People are saying it can help you lose a ton of weight.
Fiber, it's literally going to shrink your waistline.
I've lost weight, my belly fat's gone, my man boobs are gone.
Apparently, with enough fiber, your depression could be gone too.
So you're not eating enough fiber, your anxiety is going to skyrocket.
I was suffering with depression for over a year and it was because I had neglected fiber.
We're hearing that fiber can even prevent other scary things like heart disease and cancer.
yet apparently a tonne of us just aren't getting enough of it.
According to national surveys over 90 % of folks in the U .S. aren't eating enough fibre every day.
90 %! So could adding a few scoops of brand to your diet really be the thing to make you a better and brighter you?
When it comes to fibre, a lot of us wanna be...
Dropping logs daily.
But then there's science.
Science versus Fiverr is coming up just after the break.
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Welcome back. Today on the show we are diving into the world of fiber and to help us out, we have producer Michelle Dang.
Hi Wendy. How cool do you think fiber is?
I'm very impressed by fiber.
Impressed by fiber.
Fiber can affect so many different parts of your body that I didn't realize before.
Okay, all right. Well, where do we begin?
Okay, Wendy. So the one thing that everybody knows about fiber is it keeps you regular.
Yes Which is such a funny euphemism for it makes you do good poos Yes regular good poos now I don't want to stay in poo land for too long surprisingly for me But why exactly does fiber do this?
So I talked to dr Deirdre Michelsen at the University of Queensland and she told me what the ideal fibery poo looks like the stoppage That's a sausage.
That's a sausage. So you want sausages coming out of your end.
Smooth and soft. That's right.
Smooth and soft. Because you know it's just coming out, you're not having to force it.
So why does a good sausagy poo have a bunch of fibre in it?
Okay. So fibres are generally these carbs we can't digest. They basically don't get destroyed by the juices that our gut throws at them.
Mm -hmm. And well, particularly think about the tough part of fruits and veggies, like the skin or even nuts.
The fiber in these make it all the way down to your poo pipe.
Your lower intestine?
And they end up adding weight and size to your poo.
Oh, because if you eat something, I don't know, low in fiber, like white bread or something, a lot of that is just going to get absorbed by your small intestine or whatever.
but it's not gonna get all the way down to your poo pipe, as you say.
Yeah, and here's the other part of it.
If you zoom in on a piece of fiber, it kind of looks like a tangled ball of yarn and in between the strands of it, that piece of fiber can entrap water.
This helps you get a nice moist poo that moves along as well.
Oh, that's cool. No dry poos.
There was actually a study from the 80s where they tracked how long it took 12 people to poo after eating and on average fiber made their poos faster by 24 hours.
Wait, so just by eating fiber, stuff moved through their gut faster by 24 hours?
So, you know, it shaved off the whole day.
That's impressive, that's impressive.
Okay, away from poo now.
um, can we dive into these bigger claims about the gut?
Like, I've heard that eating fibre can reduce the chance of you getting leaky gut.
Irritable bowel syndrome, colon cancer.
Yes. To get us into all of those, you and me, we're going to start off by looking at this amazing study that Deirdre did involving pigs.
Oh, okay. Wendy, I don't think we do enough pig studies on this show.
Okay, okay. Well, let's bring in the pigs.
So several years ago, Deirdre and her team got 40 pigs, and these were chunky white pigs.
So do imagine Babe or Wilbur.
And they used these pigs because our guts are actually pretty similar to Piggy Guts.
So what happened to these little Wilbas?
All these pigs got a fancy meal.
We fed pigs steak, and this was good steak.
This is not some crummy thing.
It was barbecue, steak.
So everyone got the steak as part of their diet, but half of them had a bunch more wheat fiber added to their diets too.
And they had to eat like this for a month before it was time to check on their guts.
And well, to do that, these pigs were then sacrificed.
The next step was for Deirdre to take a close look at what's going on in their intestines, and well, these things are really long.
If you think about your garden hose, your green garden hose and how long that green garden hose was, that is basically what I unravel.
Next, she gently squeezed the semi -digested food out of the intestines.
That made me go off pork for about three months.
I couldn't eat Japanese curry or any form of curry, that'll look yellowish or whatever.
Sorry, because I know it's a bit gross.
Yeah, it is a bit gross.
Here's where Deirdre is ready to do the fun part of the experiment.
She took this digested yellowy brown stuff, and stuck it under a microscope.
So big reveal. Deirdre's a microbiologist, so she wants to look at what the gut bugs were up to in these pigs.
So what was going on with the gut bugs?
What did the fiber do to the gut bugs?
Ooh, do you want to see pictures from her study?
Yes, oh my gosh, yes, yes, yes, so this is what she saw under the microscope They looked at bits of meat inside the pink guts and bits of fiber.
Okay. What am I looking at?
Do you see these little green dots yes, yeah, those are those are bacteria.
Oh Okay, and do you see any green dots on this piece of meat?
No, they do not care about that little remnant of steak at all.
Yeah here's Diorgy.
Interestingly the microbes did not attach to the meat but they were very much attached to the fiber you could definitely see the microbes actually sticking to the fiber.
They're having a feast basically.
Absolutely they're having a feast. Let me show you the piece of fiber.
Oh Whoa oh my gosh they love that fiber!
There's so many of them on there right.
So many of them on It's like a huge body, I was trying to think, it looked like cicadas stuck in a tree, there's so many of them and they're all up into all the crevices.
What is this main for our health, that these gut bugs love fiber and do not like little bits of steak?
Yeah, fiber is the main food for these gut bugs.
I mean, they'll eat meat if they have to, but it's not what they want.
We know that they get more energy from fiber over meat and the fact that you're feeding gut bugs with fiber matters a lot because when Deirdre looked at the pigs who got more fiber compared to the ones who didn't they not only had more good gut bugs they had this amazing variety of them too which is super important.
What is time and time again coming through in all the studies that are being done is that a healthy gut or a healthy gut microbiota is one that is stable, one that is diverse, and one that has got abundance.
This is something that I've heard from researchers is if you think about your gut like a rainforest and a healthy rainforest has lots of different animals, monkeys, cool insects.
And that's a healthy rainforest, but an unhealthy rainforest is a monoculture.
And that's true with your gut as well.
Yeah. And in studies in people, we also know that both eating more fiber and having a more diverse gut bug ecosystem is linked to a lower risk of chronic diseases, like irritable bowel syndrome and inflammatory bowel disease.
Oh, that's cool. And so what exactly are these gut bugs doing that's sort of making our gut healthy?
Yeah, so there are specific kinds of bacteria that eat fiber and leave behind this chemical called short chain fatty acids Oh, so the the gut bugs are kind of excreting these chemicals Yeah, and interestingly the cells in your large intestine slurp up these acids as energy Really like this stuff that gut bugs are farting out ow Gut cells actually use that for nutrients.
Yes, it's very cool And now let me tell you what happens if you don't feed your gut bugs, it's not good.
And that's where I think people don't realise that they're starving their microbes, they're starving a portion a very important part of themselves.
Yeah one things microbes start to do is eat each other.
Doggy. Dog world if you like.
But that's not all.
These hungry gut bugs can go after you, too.
They also start eating the mucin that lines the gut.
Mucin is kind of like this beautiful snot that lines your gut, and it acts as a wall of defense between all the harmful stuff that's in your intestines, like viruses, bad bacteria, and toxins, and the rest of your body.
but if that mucin wall defense breaks down those gut cells under the mucin might get damaged creating little holes in your gut lining that can then let toxins into your blood and cause inflammation.
On a very basic level if you don't eat enough fiber your gut bugs get hungry your once friendly gut bugs get hungry and they can then start eating this thing that protects your gut lining, and so your gut lining starts breaking down.
Yeah. You might have heard. It's called leaky gut, and we've seen this happen in mice that don't get any fiber.
And so studies have found that people who don't eat enough fiber have holes in their gut?
Yeah. We think that's part of the reason why low fiber is linked to some of those bad gut diseases I mentioned, like inflammatory bowel disease.
Okay. And then, what about cancer?
Well, not eating a fiber can increase the risk of colorectal cancer.
In fact, Deirdre's colleagues saw the beginning signs of this in some of the pig's.
Within a month, without fiber, and if you had a high protein diet, you were on track to develop colorectal cancer.
And that was frightening.
What did they say? that the pigs who got less fiber actually had worse DNA damage in their gut cells.
And why is that? Well, one reason is because fiber helps keep your gut cells happy, right?
Right. Right. And happy and healthy.
Yes. But also, if you have a diet that's high in red meat, we know that can produce carcinogens in your gut.
And if you're not eating fiber and not pooing regularly, that means those toxins stay in gut for longer giving them more time to damage the DNA in gut cells.
Oh... Yeah, here's Deirdre on that.
You can just see the effect starkly within a month!
That was what was so shocking.
In one review, people who ate the most fiber compared to people who ate the least fiber had a lower risk of colorectal cancer by something like a third. All right Michelle.
I am convinced that fiber is very important for my gut, reduces my risk of colon cancer and all those yucky gut diseases.
That is all amazing.
It helps you poo. And it helps me poo.
Something I love as well.
All right next up can we look at these claims around fiber and depression, that eating fiber can help with your mental health.
Okay so we do know the brain and the gut talk to each other in different ways.
Like, there's a big nerve that connects the gut and the brain.
And we're getting more and more evidence suggesting that our gut microbes could be pumping out stuff like neurotransmitters that can chat with our brain.
Here's John Crian, a neuroscientist from University College Cork in Ireland.
So our gut talks to our brain, but our brain talks to our gut.
Two -way street. When it comes to why fiber, in particular, might help your brain, do you remember how when you eat fiber, certain gut bugs will eat that up and make those short -chain fatty acids?
Yes! Well, we think that those can travel through our blood to the brain and possibly help how neurons communicate with each other.
Oh. So, recently John took fresh brain slices from mice and doused them with those chemicals that microbes make, and what he saw was that these chemicals could affect synaptic plasticity, which is how neurons can change their connections between each other.
That's what helps us make memories and learn stuff.
And John says it also might be helpful in treating depression.
So here's how John thinks about fiber.
I think it is the fuel for your microbe factory.
It is fuel and it's fuel for your brain.
Have there been any studies in people to really test this out?
This idea that fiber can reduce depression.
Okay so there are studies that have asked thousands of people about how much fiber they eat, and separately, what their mental health is like.
and they generally do find a link between low fiber and depression and anxiety.
That's interesting.
Studies like this led to a lot of exciting headlines.
I'm sure. Quote, the key to reducing your depression risk could be fiber, study says, end quote.
I guess with those studies though, it is impossible to know if it was the fiber that caused the boost in mental health, right?
Because fiber, eating a lot of fiber that generally comes with a generally more healthy diet of eating fruits and vegetables.
And there's lots of reasons why if you already have depression you might not be eating a healthy diet.
Yes, it's hard to know in those types of studies if it's really fiber making a difference here versus other stuff going on in their lives.
And so to get to causation, we need our favorite, randomized controlled trials.
where researchers randomly assign people to take a pill, fold with fiber and see if it improves their mental health, compared to a control that gets a placebo.
Great. So what do these studies find?
In this big meta -analysis that Jon was a part of, they looked at 10 of these studies and only two found it worked.
The rest of the eight studies didn't.
Oh, yeah. In the results of the meta -analysis, they said, quote, no difference was found between fiber supplementation and placebo for depressive or anxiety outcomes.
Disappointing though.
Would it be nice if fiber was the Katie of mental health?
I asked John about it.
The bottom line for depression is that, like, right now, the evidence for fiber isn't there.
Yeah, absolutely. But that doesn't mean it won't work.
Wait. Why is he saying that?
I mean one reason is that the studies kind of reduce fiber down to a pill.
Whereas some researchers say that eating fiber from a bunch of different foods is what will make gut bugs happier.
Okay. Maybe we need to be doing these studies where we're telling people to eat a big fiber filled diet instead of just taking a small supplement.
After the break, weight loss, can fiber help you shed those pounds?
Plus, how fiber might even save your life?
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Welcome back, today on the show, we are talking about the wonders of fiber.
You thought it was just your grandpa's cereal.
But in fact, the fiber's getting a glow up.
We're giving it a glow up.
We're here with producer Michelle Dang.
And now, what the next we are going to the heart.
We think fiber might actually be a lifesaver here.
Interesting. How does this work?
Yeah, so we've kind of been talking about fiber as one thing.
It actually breaks down into a couple different types.
So there's soluble fiber and insoluble fiber.
And within the soluble type, you've got stuff that turns into kind of a gel.
We call it sticky fiber sometimes, the viscous fiber.
This is Andrea Glenn.
She's a nutrition scientist at New York University.
And I asked Andrea about where we find viscous fiber in the first place.
You think of oatmeal.
If you're playing with cooked oatmeal, it's going to stick to your hands, and that's the viscous fiber.
Have you ever eaten okra before, and it's kind of… It's kind of jelly.
...climbing. Yeah. Yeah, so that's also viscous fiber.
So yeah, it's in a bunch of stuff like fruit, eggplant, mushrooms, beans, for example.
And when it continues to mix with water in your stomach, the gel gets even thicker.
And so then how is that good for your heart?
Well, it starts here.
So a big reason that people develop heart disease is because eating sugar and fun stuff like muffins, candy, can give you high blood sugar spikes.
And if that happens over and over again, you can get insulin resistance, which can then lead to diabetes or even heart disease.
And what's super cool is that sticky fiber can help stop those high sugar spikes.
How? Because when you eat food that becomes that thick, gooey stuff?
What that does is it slows down digestion so it stays in your stomach longer.
You know, cause it's like, physically sticky and heavy.
Um, in one study they fed people 5 grams of gorgam, a viscous fiber, with a meal and found that it slowed down food going from the stomach to the small intestine by nearly 2 hours.
But didn't it make us poo faster?
Now it's making us poo slower?
What? Is this because it makes it pull faster once the food gets into the larger intestine but now all this fun action is happening higher up in the gut?
Yeah, exactly. It's specifically slowing down the emptying of your stomach into your small intestine, and this is important because your small intestine is where sugars get sucked up into your blood.
Oh... And not only does it slow down food, this goopy sticky gel is also coating up all the foods that you be in with it, creating this barrier around it and making it harder for little digestive enzymes to reach the sugars you be in.
So it means less sugar gets into your blood?
Not that, but it does mean that sugar gets into your blood slower.
Oh because it's protected by this goop.
Right. It makes it harder for your gut to slurp out sugars from the food you've eaten and suck it up into your blood.
So your blood sugar goes up slower, and then it goes down lower as well.
So if we ate an apple with a gummy bear, what would happen then?
Yeah, it would be better than just the gummy bear on its own.
But... Does it cancel out with the sugar?
No, definitely not.
Exactly. And finally, oh but it actually does help a little because it slows down the sugar spikes, right?
Yeah. And then I also want to tell you quickly about cholesterol because fiber helps with that too.
Huh. Right. Okay so it's a very weird journey.
So the sticky fiber comes along and traps these things called bile acids in our guts which are there to help us digest food.
Uh huh. But this means that your body needs to make more and more bile acids.
And what's important for our story here is that bile acids are made up of cholesterol.
Oh. Yeah so because the sticky fiber is trapping your bile acids, basically taking them out of commission, your body has to make more and more and more bile acids, which means it's sucking up more and more cholesterol from your blood.
And that is how eating fiber reduces cholesterol?
Yes, it's very tricky, right?
It's like, what? That is very surprising.
So does eating this viscous sticky fiber have a measurable effect on the risk of heart disease?
Yeah, so recently, Andrea did a study to find out like what are the long -term effects here.
Yeah. And she used data of more than 200 ,000 people that had been tracked for about 30 years.
And what they found was that people who eat a fiber packed diet had a 14 % lower risk of total cardiovascular disease, coronary heart disease, so that includes things like heart attacks and then stroke as well.
That might not all be because of the fiber though, right?
Because, like we've mentioned, if you're eating a healthy diet, you might also be doing things like more exercise, or other stuff.
That's true, that's true.
But Andrea thinks it's real?
Yeah, and Andrea could see in the data that the more viscous fiber people ate, the better it was.
Cool. Actually, there's a bunch of studies that have found this over and over again.
There's even one meta -analysis that found that for every 10 grams of fiber people ate a day, it brought down their general risk of dying by 10%.
So that's pretty surprising.
OK. Fiber. Can help you live longer.
All right, so if that wasn't a reason enough to eat fiber, the last thing we're going to look at is this claim around weight loss.
So what do we know here?
OK, so this viscous fiber moves pretty slowly through your stomach and into your gut, which also means you might not get hungry as fast. So if you eat a bowl oatmeal, and you don't need to eat for five hours, versus white bread, you'll be hungry again in two hours and you'll have an extra snack.
So it might help control your calories that way.
That makes sense. And there's also some evidence that fiber helps with weight loss because of those gut bugs.
When they munch up the fiber they love so much, they actually help your body pump out hormones that could help you feel fuller.
Oh, cool. But let's look at what happens to people's weight when they actually have more fiber.
One study actually had people take this super viscous fiber for a year and they lost some weight but it was less than three kilos about six pounds compared to a control and in fact a big meta -analysis looking at more than 60 trials found that people on fiber compared to control diets on average They lost about 0 .3 of a kilogram.
So it's not a lot? No, it's not much at all.
It's less than a pound.
Oh, that's so low. That's so low.
I guess that classic thing of just eating is complicated, and even if that bowl of oatmeal made you feel more full, it doesn't mean 30 minutes later, you're not reaching for the chocolate.
Yeah. I'm speaking for myself, personally.
Okay, so even though fibre not particularly good for weight loss, it is good for so many other amazing things.
Your heart. Your gut.
And yet 90 % of us aren't getting enough of this.
So what does it take to eat enough fibre?
Well Wendy, I had you track your fibre.
Yes. Let's look at how you hold up to what you're supposed to be eating.
I wondered when that was coming into it.
Yes. Let me tell you first. The recommended amounts to eat it's about 25 grams for women and 30 grams for men, more or less depending on your age.
If I look at your data...
Oh, I'm nervous. There were two days out of 14 that you hit your recommended amount.
That's it. But on those days, you did really good.
You got over 40 grams of fiber on the days that you met it.
But then on the rest of the days, you were around like 15, 16 grams, which actually is where most of us are eating on average.
All right. This is an example of an average person who did not reach their fiber.
I guess I'll just go through the stuff that has fiber in it because I ate a bagel, I ate an apple scroll.
Now, garbage calories, right?
I ate half a tomato, two apples.
Okay. Half a carrot, some lettuce, some walnuts.
That didn't get me there.
You know I track too.
I did not do a very good job.
So I know the struggle, especially when things aren't moving along.
I talk to Deirdre about this too.
So when I bring out the psyllium husk, yeah.
Oh goodness me. But listen, do you really want to have psyllium husks stirred into a glass of water.
It would taste disgusting.
Just eat your firm vegetables, just eat a celery with a bit of peanut butter, girl.
You love that. That's funny, cause like looking at that day where I ate a lot of fibre, it was because I ate two cups of frozen peas.
This is my ticket, my personal ticket.
Cause I don't know.
Peanut butter just doesn't do it for me, but frozen peas, two cups will get you almost 15 grams. That's like a lot of the way there.
That's my ticket to fiber heaven.
That's a ball full of peas.
But that's a lot of fiber.
Now that I think about it, the next day I actually didn't feel great.
I was pretty bloated and my poos were not the sausages.
So I guess you can go overboard. Yeah, that can happen if you eat too much fiber suddenly.
It can make you bloated and farty.
So you might want to ramp up the peas more slowly.
But still, but still, I mean, for the most of the time I wasn't doing that.
Michelle, what was your ticket to fiber town?
I got 25 grams of fiber from just eating tortilla wraps.
No way! So maybe that, maybe I'll just keep eating burritos all the time.
That's awesome! Was it like high fiber wraps?
Yeah, they were. But again, it's best to get your fiber from a variety of foods.
Other tickets to high fiber heaven could be stuff like raspberries, Whole grain pasta, lentils, beans, chia seeds.
And you know why not throw in some high fiber wraps too.
Yeah, right. Okay. Well, to high fiber wrap up this episode here, Michelle, here is what I have learned about fiber.
It is amazing for your gut.
Guess I kinda knew that before but now I know that if you don't have fiber, your lovely gut bugs will turn on you and start eating you and that could be bad for your gut.
Fiber, also amazing for your heart, particularly that viscous sticky fiber that you get from oatmeal and eggplants and okra.
Yeah, not particularly great for weight loss and depression, who knows?
So Michelle, you've been just swimming in the world of fiber for ages.
How do you think this is gonna change your life this episode?
And how has Science Versus changed your life, Michelle?
It's making me more conscious about what foods I'm selecting, and I'm really thinking, oh my gosh, there's all these trillions of microbes in my gut that I need to feed.
I'm like, whoa. So yeah, I am gonna change how I eat.
And to take it home, here's what Deirdre had to say.
Fiber's not a sexy -sounding word by any stretch of the imagination, But what is sexy?
Sexy is what clever marketing executives put out, right?
To promote foods for our big multinational food companies.
So to help with sexy, I'm sexy god damn it.
So yeah, I'm going to look after myself and hence it means you're looking after my microbes.
And guess what? That's your fiber for you.
Happy gut bugs. Happy you.
Happy you, indeed Michelle.
And I think, on that note, I think that's a wrap.
No, sorry, that should be yours.
Now, but that's exactly.
That is so well put.
All right. We did just set it.
That's a wrap. And Michelle, how many citations are in this week's episode?
There are 104 citations in this episode.
104 citations. And if people want to read more about fiva and see these citations, where should they go?
Please check out our transcript, which you can find in our show notes.
Yes, and if you want to see all of the different kinds of foods that you can eat to hit your fibre target and reach highfibreheaven.
Just go onto our instagram, scienceundiscorpths, and we've got some diagrams waiting for you.
You can also say hello on my TikTok, which is at windyzookerman.
And let me know what you thought of this episode.
Thanks so much, Michelle.
Thanks, Wendy. Hi This episode was produced by Michelle Dang with help from me Wendy Zuckerman, Meryl Horne, Rose Rimmeler and Akedi Foster -Keys were edited by Blythe Terrell.
Fact checking by Erika Akiko Howard. Mix and sound design by Sam Bear.
Music written by Bobby Lord, Peter Leonard and Bumi Hidaka.
Recording help from Nick Kilvert An extra thanks to Kafeya Yusuf.
Plus, thank -you to Joseph Lovell Wilson and The Zukerman Family.
Science Basses is a Spotify Studios original.
Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
We are everywhere. But if you are listening on Spotify, follow us and tap the bell icon for more episode notifications.
So you know when new episodes come out, like this one.
I'm Wendy Zukerman, back to you next time.
