Hey.
Hey.
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Heather, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you back on the show.
I
Were we first?
Yeah.
That's great.
Well, we're still alive.
Still going.
So, for the listeners who might not have heard that episode, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure.
So I do coaching and consulting through the executive advisory.
And we work with all kinds of companies, a lot of entertainment, but really any industry.
And it's all about the people side of the business.
And I also have another side of work that I do, where I volunteer and I work with a lot of transitioning people transitioning me into the workforce from say, the military, some people honestly getting out of prison, some women coming out of abusive situations, and that's under Low Men on the Totem Pole, which that's been kind of.
My theme is how to empower people that sometimes don't feel empowered.
So I get to kind of dip into both sides of the world, and it's nice.
That's fantastic.
And I admire your humility because you forgot to mention your book, your podcast and your Forbes articles too.
Oh, you're so kind.
Yes.
So I wrote a book, Low Man on the Totem Pole, Stop Begging for Promotion, Start Selling Your Genius.
And it comes from when I got out of the military and having a tough time figuring out how do you get work, and I always try to volunteer my services wherever possible.
Clearly, I don't have enough time.
So I wrote the book so it's a little bit more accessible.
I use it in my coaching with executives.
I use it helping people that were unemployed for whatever reason.
So it's a good universal book.
We've got a podcast, Low Man on the Total Pole, which we were so lucky to have you as a guest.
And we talk about all these topics.
It's relative to anybody working.
And then I've been lucky enough to do some Forbes articles too.
And you can find me under H.V.
MacArthur.
Perfect.
Yeah.
And we'll be sure to link to all of those things in the description of the episode.
And I'm really, really excited for this Heather, as you know, because I got giddy the last time we talked about this.
And I have to apologize for the audience.
My audience, I am sorry that I haven't had an episode on how to give and receive feedback.
Those are some of the most difficult conversations that you are having, and I apologize for that.
But we are rectifying the situation now with an expert.
So today we're going to talk about the three things.
First giving responsibly feedback how to give it effectively, then how to receive feedback effectively.
And then lastly, what happens if we get feedback that we disagree with?
How do we have that conversation?
So let's start off with number one.
What are some things we need to keep in mind when giving good feedback?
So that's it's.
I don't want to mince words, but that's actually part of the issue that comes with feedback.
Is this idea that we're going to give it?
So we set ourselves up to honestly lecture people and you know I don't know about you, but my mother tried that and that definitely didn't go very far with me.
So I'm always about how do you get clear about what it is that you are looking to accomplish in talking to somebody?
And then how do you set them up for a real dialogue?
And I think both those things are critical.
And then yeah, you could share your side of things, but it actually shouldn't be the front runner, because if you're trying to solve and get people on the same page, you've got to invite them in and make sure that you really understand their perspective.
So I always say first start with.
Can you get yourself in a mindset where you're open, genuinely curious about their perspective?
Because, if not, you might as well say I'm here to tell you everything I think is wrong with you or what you do.
I don't know if you'll get a good response, but at least it's honest.
Um, And so when I do that, when I have people sit down and we work through where their emotions are with things, but I start with a model, I call above the line feedback.
And it starts with where your brain operates.
Your brain, for all this situation to happen, you had to collect details.
And so that's the green language.
It's rare you and I are gonna dispute those two things, unless I really think what you're saying is an outright lie.
But if I say you were late five times by five minutes in the month of September, that's pretty specific and most likely someone else could corroborate.
And unless I'm just gonna debate with you that you're absolutely wrong.
Most often, there's not a lot of room for confusion and different interpretations.
If now the yellow plus language, your brain has to start to look for patterns.
You can't just speak in details all day.
And so we'll say things like you were late several times last month.
That may be accurate, but there's room for me to go, well, what do you mean by several times?
And what do you really mean by late?
And so there's room for me to debate that.
But the but.
You know we need a little bit of that so we can get to the point.
But that's, your brain looks for that pattern.
Then your brain judges.
Do I like that result?
Do I like that behavior?
Do I think it's good or bad?
And this is actually where performance ratings or those types of discussions come into play.
I think the work was effective.
I think the results of that were above and beyond what we were expecting.
Or I think your pattern for showing up in meetings shows unprofessionalism.
And so those are all things that are happening outside of the person, and it's all work-related.
This is the area.
So that's what I call yellow neutral.
This is where the line shows up.
So it's yellow neutral.
What do I think of stuff?
Yellow plus, what patterns am I seeing?
Green language, all the details, all the facts, all the tangibles.
I can even say, I felt uncomfortable in that meeting.
That's actually green language.
I can say what I felt.
No one can dispute that.
If I said, you made me uncomfortable, Then it's an accusation.
If I say I felt uncomfortable based on how you behave, that's me sharing of myself.
So it's very different.
If I say you made me, then I'm also implying that you were at fault.
You had a certain motivation, all those types of things.
And it sets things off to the wrong thing.
So the brain goes through.
I see it.
I look for the pattern.
I judge it.
And then your brain doesn't stop.
It goes down to the next line and it says, I start to judge the person.
So I think they're unmotivated.
I think they're, you know, out to destroy things.
Anytime I'm talking about someone's personality or their motivation, I've gone below the line.
And here's what's dangerous is that's yellow minus language.
That's not illegal stuff.
It'll kick you off into a debate.
It'll get the person on the wrong side of things.
It'll actually set you up to not be open and curious.
But in there, our biases start to show up.
So our biases start to show up when we start to judge things at the yellow neutral.
We're judging work.
I have a bias for timeliness.
Then we start to show our bias for kind of people and what I think their values should be.
And then there's the red language.
And the red language is my brain.
Said data themes what I think of it, what I think of them and now what I think of people like them.
And this is where the really ugly biases show up.
And you know, sometimes it's people like them, people who work in IT, but that definitely sets you up for some problems.
But you're also doing that in a setting of society.
And so I might.
If I in society has taught me to think one way about women or a certain race or a certain age group, then all of a sudden my brain goes lightning fast to people like them, people like them.
And that's how we get micro and macro aggressions in the workplace.
So It's all about.
Can I get you really disciplined to rewind your brain and stay above the line to one?
Keep you from practicing these biases.
And two, we all have some biases keeping it out of the workplace, keeping it out of our performance judgments.
This is so interesting because it sounds like the natural thing for people to do in this situation is to go below the line.
And the only way we can stay above the line is if we are really intentional about wordsmithing these conversations in a way that makes it more likely for us to be successful.
Hello, my friends.
Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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Yeah.
And, you know, people are going to say, oh, this is the world is too.
I love this.
The world is just too politically correct.
And like you actually what you're really saying is I don't want to try this hard.
And I go back to you don't have to try that hard.
My question is, how's it working for you?
And if you're getting what you need and it's happening the way you want to and you've got all this performance just flowing in like you want it, then don't take my advice.
Hang out in the red if you want to.
I have found that when people are trying to quote unquote, give feedback, they're trying to change another person's behavior.
I'm not going to listen to somebody that I don't feel safe with.
I'm not going to listen to someone who I don't think respects or values me.
So, when you're giving me the feedback, this idea that you, you know, if you're giving it and you think well, I'm going to comply because say, it's my job or I'm a kid in the household or whatever it is.
I'll comply, maybe if there's enough fear factor there, but that's very different than me committing to looking at things differently.
And so your brain always goes there because it wants to be efficient.
It wants the pattern.
It wants to group things.
But then when you put in all these negative things that get in the way of really seeing a person, it doesn't serve us in any situation.
So that discipline of going, I landed here.
And let me just rewind and look at where I came from.
I have to do this all the time with performance reviews, where someone will send it in and it's like they're just unmotivated.
And I got to go, well, what led you to that?
I'm like, oh, it's just a gut feeling.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
Your brain tracks things that it saw, judged it, and now you're judging them.
You can't be lazy here.
Rewind and go back to where you found that information.
What led you to that? because that's the only thing that that person can do something with.
Yeah, this is really great, because the thing that I like about this is that we're recognizing how similar this type of difficult conversation is compared to other negotiations or difficult conversations you might find yourself in.
The fundamentals are the same, but the framework is just a little bit different given the context.
But this is something that we can take and apply to every single difficult conversation we're having, especially when it comes to making sure that we are addressing the issues in a way that minimizes the likelihood of defensiveness.
Because it sounds like making sure that we are not letting our biases or stereotypes getting in the way.
It sounds like that will make it less likely for the other person to push back, because there's less ambiguity.
Yeah, and I always look at it as anything above the line.
You come across as sharing your experience.
I may not like what I hear in terms of what your experience is, but anything below the line.
You're accusing me and you are sentencing me.
So when you say well, you know, you just don't even care about this and you went out of your way to sabotage it, it's an accusation and you've convicted me.
There's no room.
I can't, you're compelling me to defend myself.
If you say you know.
When you came in and in the middle of the meeting and cut me off and then proceeded to critique my presentation, I felt like you were just dismissing me.
And I might come in and go, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry you felt that way.
I was just so enthusiastic, but I can understand how you felt that.
Now I might still struggle with what you're sharing with me, but at least you're staying in the lane of.
It also helps build credibility because if I'm describing something, nothing I shared when I'm above the line can really be debated.
This is what I saw, this is how often I saw it and this is what the impact that I saw, or the impact it had on me.
They might go back and forth, but really, what they're going to defend is my intention, wasn't that?
That's what they'll come along.
When I said that, you're taking that too personal.
I get that, but maybe explain to me what were you thinking?
And you can literally ask them the questions.
What was it that you saw?
What was it that, you know, what did you decide?
What were you thinking?
What impact were you looking to make?
And it helps keep others above the line as well.
This is really great.
And I think this is a perfect time to transition into thinking receiving feedback?
What are some of the things we need to keep in mind in those types of conversations?
Yeah.
So when it comes to inviting, when it comes to receiving feedback, I think the most powerful place that you can sit is getting good at inviting the feedback.
And you know, I had someone who had once asked me in a class.
You know why are people so terrible at giving feedback?
And I said, because most of us are really, really bad at receiving it.
And we all kind of chuckle and we laugh about it, but it's the truth.
I see more managers stressing about the emotional reaction they're going to have to manage when they share, that they don't necessarily see things the way that the other individual does.
Now, part of that's because they deliver feedback as an accusation versus sharing an experience.
But the other part of it is we just were so raw and looking for this kind of approval.
And to me, when you get in the business of asking for feedback, I always say try to think of yourself like a business owner.
You wouldn't let your customers – you wouldn't wait until your customers are miserable and say something by yelling at you.
We do customer surveys.
We do so much to find customer data.
Why not do that with anybody in your life, your manager, your – kids, your spouse, your friends.
You don't have to be all weird and formal, but you can literally just say something along the lines of I always like to ask employees and managers that I work with what's the one thing I'm doing that's helping.
What's the one thing that's getting in the way?
And that opens up a whole host of things.
But you start to advertise that you're looking into it.
And I always want to make sure that I follow this model that I go by.
It's called LEAP.
And in my head, I'm like, how do I take a leap forward from where we're at?
And the best way is to first the L stands for listen.
So that's tough to do when they're sharing things that you don't want to hear, or they're sharing it in a way that's convincing, or whatever it might be.
But that first act is listening.
And what I'm trying to do in the listening is making sure that they feel heard, even if I don't agree, and that I'm advertising.
No matter what, I'm the most grateful that you're talking to me.
And so, even if we're gonna have to hash some things out, I'm just so grateful that you came to me or that you're responding to my question.
And then E stands for emotion.
Understand that you are gonna have an emotional response.
Understand that even if they're saying things that are positive idea that someone was paying attention to you and you didn't know they were paying attention or they were thinking about things that you, just all of it there's an emotional response and I think the assumption is is that if it doesn't feel good, it must be wrong, and I kind of go with, kind of expect it to not feel so hot, no matter what.
Like I look through, if I do a course, I look through those they give you know they do these feedback things and my whole thing is I'm I can't look at those until at least a week after I delivered the class.
Because if I look at them any sooner than that, then what happens is I'm just too emotionally raw.
So know that you're gonna have an emotional response.
Don't assume that that's necessarily a sign of good or bad.
And then I'm always, the A stands for acquire, acquire clarity.
And it's around this idea of, Asking questions.
This may not all happen in one conversation.
You may have to go off and digest what they had to say and come back and ask for that clarity.
And then the last one is provide perspective.
And that's you should come in and provide your perspective.
If you've done the listening and you've asked for clarity and you've done all those types of things, then by the time you provide your perspective and if you even advertise like I'm not looking to fight with you on this, I really just want to make sure that we're both understanding where we're coming from.
You get to share your side of it.
I find too many people jump really quick with, well, actually, this is what happened.
And then what people will describe them as, as defensive and difficult to give feedback to.
This is fantastic.
And listeners out there, I know you're probably saying, hey, I wish I could take notes faster.
Well, don't worry.
We're going to turn this into a free guide.
So if you go to AmericanNegotiationInstitutecom slash guide, you can get access to a breakdown of this, this approach, which is really fantastic.
So if you're in a position where you are either giving and receiving feedback, then you could download this guide to prepare for that conversation.
And of course, you can get access to 15 other free negotiation guides.
So this is going to be news to my team that they need to create this.
I'll send what we have.
It'll be easier to do.
Oh, fantastic.
Yes.
Thank you for that.
This is great.
And I like the frameworks that you're giving here.
And the simplest thing that all of us can do right now to become better at this is talk to our friends, our family, our colleagues at work and encourage them to tell us what we can do better.
And it makes so much sense because By doing this, we are training them to let them know.
Hey, this conversation doesn't need to be that awkward.
You can feel safe telling me what I need to do.
And then you're going to get more feedback, which puts you in a position to improve your performance.
And so you're almost desensitizing yourself to the difficult conversation, while at the same time teaching other people how they can interact with you.
I think the best thing is that the first time that someone tries to give you feedback whether it's a working relationship or friendship, any of those types of things is that you just really be receptive to them doing it.
People tend to get better at giving you feedback because they see that you're safe to respond to.
And like I said, if you invite it, that's great.
But at the very least, respond very graciously and with gratitude that they're talking to you.
And what I also say, just to kind of wrap this up is, You know, earlier I mentioned it shouldn't be about giving feedback or receiving feedback.
It's just more of a feedback dialogue.
And dialogue should feel like a game of catch versus a tennis match.
If I'm playing catch with you, I'm throwing the ball with the intention and goal to make it easy for you to receive it.
And then you receive it and then you throw it back to me.
And the goal is to keep the ball in the air and have this thing between us.
And that's a dialogue.
But most people go into feedback with this idea of I'm going to hit the ball in a way, but you can't possibly hit it back to me.
And then they're like, let me show you my backhand.
And you know, then it's this game of who can kind of kick each other out of the game first.
And that's where trust is broken.
And it's not really feedback.
It's a fight.
Yeah, that's I love that example.
Because it's a.
It's a really perverse game of tennis because it's a.
It's a game where, even if you score a point, you lose.
Yes.
Yeah.
So this is helpful.
I really like that metaphor.
And again, this is something that we can take in all of our difficult conversations.
And when I'm negotiating or when I'm serving as a mediator.
One of the things that I find helpful that encourages people to share more information is communication showing appreciation when they do share information, especially when it's information that they might have hesitated to share because it either reflects poorly on me or my client.
Sometimes people will try to protect you from information that might hurt your feelings.
And I tell people, listen, I need that information in order to make this situation better.
And so I really go out of my way to give them that positive reinforcement to say listen, this I know that wasn't easy to say and I really appreciate it.
I appreciate that you trust me enough to share that information.
And by reinforcing it.
In that way, they appreciate that they feel safer and they say okay, I guess the Kwame can handle it.
That wasn't that bad.
And then they share a little bit more.
And when it comes down to it, these difficult conversations are information games.
The more information you have, the better you are in the as it relates to your ability to solve the problem.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think um, I think that's what invites it to even the idea of if you don't agree with them, because I think people are so obsessed with what if I don't agree with them?
What if I don't agree with them?
And I think, if you remember the feedback dialogue, I always see it as how do we align on expectations?
And the first thing we have to figure out is where's the gap in what we were expecting?
And that doesn't, you know, so I disagree with you.
That's not a dangerous thing.
Like, oh, there's a gap.
What were you expecting?
This is what I was expecting.
And my assumption is always, as long as we can talk about this, we can close that gap.
So you know, but when I think, a lot of times when people are so eager to go but I don't agree with them, check and see.
Did the person deliver below the line feedback and it's triggered you.
And if that's the case, if they said you're not motivated and you didn't care about this, just understand that you just gotta help their brain rewind.
Tell me a little bit about what you were seeing that led you to this.
And you can keep them... I had a performance review with a manager who just tore me apart.
And I just kept bringing her back, what's the green?
Yellow plus, yellow neutral.
And by the end, it was a very, I felt, fair performance review.
She had gotten emotional about how she didn't care for some of my style and who would do that.
But she did.
But by the end of it she said this is probably the most productive performance review I've ever had.
And I taught her a little bit about how to do good performance reviews without lecturing her without any of that, just through the questions I was asking.
And I didn't allow myself to get wrong.
There was a little moment on the drive home where I was like, let me out if I saw her.
But I was able to stay professional, keep my credibility and we were able to have a conversation that was productive, versus getting caught in our egos, getting triggered.
This is a perfect time to transition into what to do when the feedback you receive is unfair or unwarranted.
And I think the story that you just gave there is really helpful.
And so if we could kind of tease out some of those key elements, what do you think those would be?
I'd say, you know, if you... One, I don't think feedback is ever unfair.
It's this person's perspective.
So I don't One, don't get me wrong.
I've gotten triggered by folks and let my ego get tripped up in light of what it was we were doing, especially if you ask my boyfriend.
But I remember that.
I just try to remind myself.
Feedback is not, even if they give it as a, you need to do this.
Feedback is simply their experience and their expectations.
Even if some of them they wrap it in a nice little target bag and it's pretty.
And I enjoy opening it and seeing it.
And some put it in a cardboard box and kick it up the street in the rain.
And it feels like I don't want to open that.
It's all just information about what they were expecting and hoping for.
And if I get caught up in judging their skills on how well they delivered it, I'm going to miss that moment of let's just understand where each other's coming from.
And I think the more you can have an assumption of good intent.
I even think about that manager where I'm like her intent was to to to have control of her team and to feel confident that her team was going to represent her well.
And I think she didn't know how to handle someone like me, and everything about my style was so different than hers.
She just saw it as bad.
And I could sit here and go like how you know well, she should be a better manager, but really it was I one.
Treated her like a customer versus a boss.
And I just, you know, what was it you were expecting?
What were you looking for?
How can we deliver that in a way?
And am I the right person to deliver that?
You know, and, but I didn't allow it to get into this kind of character judgment of me.
I think at one point she even said, I'm just very disappointed in you in the beginning of it.
And I'm like, I didn't even, you know, like no one gets to say that to me.
Even my mom, if she would have said I'm disappointed in you, I'm like, sorry lady, I got a different life that I'm living.
So I said, I go, well, I'm interested.
I'm wondering if what you really mean to say is you're disappointed in the result and you had expected me to do something different.
She goes yeah.
And her yeah was like yeah, that's what I said.
I she didn't realize no, that's not what she said.
But I made her rewind and then we went to.
So tell me what you were expecting.
And because I didn't respond with a tennis match back she, she really sat there and was like well, and it took her some time.
And I said take your time.
I understand we've got to go back in the past here.
And because I made it safe to talk to me, even though she, she delivered it in a really kind of negative way.
We got to a very functional place at the end of that.
I didn't care for her.
We were very Seinfeld and Newman in our interactions.
And to this day, though, she still leverages me as a consultant.
We don't spend a lot of time with each other in the room.
Something about us is oil and water in terms of style.
But we both trust that we won't hurt our professional credibility and that we understand what each person brings to the table.
There's so much in this story that is perfect.
So I appreciate you telling this, because one of the things I mentioned in my TED Talk is that there's a difference between being liked and being respected.
And so even in your interaction with her you didn't necessarily like each other, but there was still mutual respect, where you are still getting business from that relationship going forward, which is just great.
And I think it also demonstrates the ability that we have to use our negotiation skills to be good leaders in the conversation.
We're conversational leaders.
And a lot of times we're demonstrating the appropriate approach to have these difficult conversations through the way that we have the conversation and then other people reciprocate.
And that elevates the level of communication for everybody.
And I would just, not to debate you on it, but I don't think we respected each other.
Okay.
To be honest.
But I think we trusted each other.
And so that's where I'm like.
You don't have to be liked and you may not even be respected, but do they trust you?
Do they trust?
Like, I don't think she respected the work that I did.
She knew her clients did.
And so she leverages me.
Her clients like me a lot.
So I make her look good, but I don't think she even respects what I do for a living.
And I can't say I respect how she leads, but we trusted each other to treat each other in a way that that we would support what we were up to, as long as we could have a good trade with each other.
And so I think you can go through a lot.
But if they can trust you and if you make people I always say how am I helping someone feel safe to work with me?
And that's what I care about the most.
They don't have to think highly of me as a person or whatever, but do they feel safe working with me?
And everyone needs something different to feel safe about.
That's so fascinating.
And I think that's almost okay.
So you're going to be a recurring guest.
That will be an interesting one to discuss.
How can we have these relationships and a productive business relationship if you don't like each other, don't even respect each other?
But how can you still get that trust, just in a business sense?
That's really cool.
So listeners, keep an eye out for that coming to an episode near you in 2021.
Well, I think we're running up on time here.
So I really appreciate this, Heather.
This was so much fun.
But before you go, make sure you let the listeners know about your book and the podcast and your company.
Yeah.
Feel free to get more on this topic in the book Low Man on the Total Pole.
Stop Begging for Promotions.
Start Selling Your Genius.
It's available on Amazon, Apple iBooks.
And then also the podcast is on blog talk radio.
It's under low men on the totem pole.
And, and then also you can always find my articles on Forbes under H V as in Victoria MacArthur.
Perfect.
Thanks again.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me again.
This is always a pleasure.
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