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Hey folks, this week on the show, we're sharing Reid Hoffman's conversation with Dr Fei-Fei Li from our 2025 Masters of Scale Summit.
Fei-Fei is a brilliant computer scientist and author who has been at the forefront of AI development for decades.
She was a founding director of Stanford's Human-Centered AI Institute and is now the co-founder and CEO of World Labs.
She joined Reid on stage for candid reflections on where we are and where we're headed as AI evolves.
I think you'll enjoy this.
I've lost count of the number of times we've done this, and it's always awesome and an honor.
So thank you for being here.
Thank you.
I've lost count too.
Obviously, anyone who's following your career knows that you're one of the OG in the wave of AI, ImageNet.
All of these things that are contributions that are fundamental to where we are today.
So by the way, thank you for that.
And now you're working on spatial intelligence and world building.
Say a little bit about why you took a sabbatical from a job you love, with human-centered AI and Stanford CS, and started building this company.
And what are you doing?
So, you know, Reid, you are one of the original supporters, investors of OpenAI.
So when OpenAI was founded, you and I talked about the dream of AGI, right?
As an AI scientist...
I'm torn between the word AI versus AGI because they more or less mean the same thing for me.
But language aside, what is... Actually, I use AGI for the AI we haven't invented yet.
Okay.
Yes.
So what is AGI to me?
AGI to me is the capability of intelligence of machines that are on par with humans and, in many cases, can be superseding humans.
I think about this as a door to the future.
And on this door, there are multiple keyholes.
And language is one of them.
One of the major ones, because language is an essential part of intelligence, to the point that I know you are a quasi-philosophy major that Wittgenstein Quasi is actually a positive word.
At Stanford, I have to say, because Reid is an alumni there is a very special major called symbolic systems.
They combine philosophy and cognitive science and computer science.
By the way, I was the eighth person to declare that major.
Oh, my God.
So many How many famous people come out of that major?
Yeah, so quasi, it just means the proportion.
So it's a good word.
She'll correct me later, but that's all right.
I'm digging myself out of a hole.
Wittgenstein says that language defines the limit of world.
I'm actually disagreeing with that.
Excellent.
Because I think language defines everything, a certain level of boundary that the world can be described in symbolic forms.
But beyond that, the world is actually limitless.
And what is that world?
How do we define that?
What does that have to do with intelligence, and how do we use machines to express that?
I lump that whole thing into world modeling.
World modeling is very connected to language, but it's about expressing, representing and eventually participating in the changes of the states of the world.
And that could be virtual, it could be physical.
And what does world modeling entail?
It does entail language, because language is one form of interrogation with the world.
But it also entails language, the visual, the lights, the semantics, the space, the physical actions.
And all of that is still at the dawn and it's the next phase of AI.
And that's what World Labs is about.
We are trying to do world modeling and we're trying to bring that level of spatial intelligence into the next chapter of AI.
So two questions with the spatial intelligence.
One, because there are a few people who will be deep here, but a lot of people...
Their primary experience of LLMs is like ChachiBT, Gemini, et cetera.
So what should they understand is different?
Not just in the cognitive capabilities, because our world is not just language.
And then two, what does the road ahead look like?
What are some of the challenges to overcome in getting there?
Yeah.
What would it get us when we have world modeling?
Well, we're already seeing budding signs of that.
Lots of storytellers are creatives with many mediums, whether it's pixels movies sculptures, digital art.
And that is a highly highly creative interactive world that you cannot just use language to express.
And world modeling.
The ability to generate things, to generate worlds that you can immerse yourself in, you can interact with, is highly enticing and exciting for creators.
And that's one way you see world modeling could be applied for.
This is not just for entertainment and storytelling.
This could be for design, could be for even industrial uses, all the way to healthcare medicine, education.
Also, the distance between being passively entertained and being actively participating in Experiences right now has been closing rapidly, and the ability to have machines to create world models that would allow that kind of immersive experiences is really powerful.
And that also segues into simulation.
Simulation is really important, both for human experiences, human learning, as well as for embodied AI.
Robots need to learn from simulation as much as it needs to learn from the real world.
We can really learn about the history of robots, including self-driving cars, and the critical roles that simulation has played.
So the application really is boundless.
What are the challenges?
I'll just call out one challenge.
There are actually many challenges.
One challenge is data.
Unlike language, words, Data is all over the internet.
When it comes to world modeling, data is not as obvious and easily obtainable compared to language.
Of course, there are video data.
That's one of the most critical form of data for world modeling.
But the world, like I said, is very multimodal.
It's very spatial.
It has space fundamental 3D information geometry physics, dynamics and some of those are not easily obtainable.
And so there's obviously been a lot of discussion around robotics.
And one of the things I think we should draw the line for everyone is to understand how critical world modeling will be to any kind of robotic elevation of work and human conditions.
Say a little bit about why this cognitive set is so important there.
Yeah, I spent a lot of time thinking about that because frankly, after ImageNet, after the first wave of computer vision achieving a level of fidelity and quality, I actually went into a little bit of a crisis myself and started to soul-search what is perception about?
What is vision for?
I thought it would take me 100 years to work on the problem of object recognition, but it went a little faster than I thought.
So I needed another North Star.
And it took me back to evolution.
And I started to read a lot about evolution.
And I'm like literally this much of a philosophy student compared to Reed is that about 530 million years ago, there was an incredible evolutionary event called Cambrian explosion, where the animal speciation just exploded, where it's also the beginning of the nervous system, the beginning of photosensitive cells.
And it really, after reading a lot of literature and thinking, it really dawned on me the goal, the evolutionary reason animals have perception is actually for activity, for interactivity.
It's active.
And that means perception and the perceptual intelligence is the foundation of movement.
And the beginning of movement is very simple.
You just kind of translate your body somewhere.
Quickly, the movement becomes much more interactive and fighting for food to mating, to nesting, to rearing offsprings to much deeper.
I mean, look at mammals and humans.
Our ability to move is very, very complex.
The degree of freedom we have between our fingers, toes, and body, torso is very high.
And all this requires a fundamental process perceptual, spatial intelligence of the world we're in, so that we know, we understand and we can plan for all the movements.
So really, truly in my opinion, that the level of nuanced, complex spatial world understanding is the brain of embodied intelligence, including robots.
And actually, while the robots are, give a particular sense where you need that embodied intelligence for them to all be embodied.
There will also, of course be, a little bit like your opening comment on Wittgenstein, the question of actual cognitive reasoning capabilities that are not just purely linguistic.
Still ahead more of Reid's conversation with Fei Fei about why we should all be more fearless in the age of AI.
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Welcome back to Masters of Scale.
You can find this conversation and much more from our 2025 Summit on our YouTube channel.
Part of what you get with spatial intelligence is other forms of intelligence that will even be important there.
It isn't just in a pure perception action loop.
The old Western perception as a camera and action as separate is clearly wrong.
That was the thing that you were just referring to.
But it will also increase our cognitive capabilities how we imagine the world, how we model it in our heads.
What are some of the reasoning characteristics you think might come out from when you add spatial intelligence not just to robots but to every AI system?
Yeah, that's wonderful, Reid.
This is why I love talking to you.
So throughout human civilization.
If you look at the milestones of humans building civilization, there's a lot of milestones that cannot possibly be achieved with just language.
The nuance of... space and spatial reasoning, world modeling is very, very clear.
For example, let's just take early days, the building of pyramid, the ability to start to abstract geometry, the sense of geometry, and also the construction of large bodies.
There is a lot of things that goes on into that cognitive spatial reasoning.
That's not this simplistic transactional behavior of I see something.
I want to move it right.
Another example is the deduction of the structure of DNA.
If you know the history of how DNA was discovered.
Of course many scientists were getting the vibe, using today's language, that there's something that's going on in this fundamental building block of our genetics.
But it took Rosalind Franklin, underappreciated scientist, to take this X-ray imagery.
But then Francis Crick and James Watson, of course, they were deeply thinking about this.
But to go from this imagery to a 3D double helix intertwined structure is deeply special.
You cannot language your way into this deduction.
I'm sure language participated.
I'm not anti-language.
I love Vicky Stein.
I speak.
I am pro-language.
Exactly, exactly.
But that is a beautiful example of humans using spatial reasoning and cognitive ability to do something or discover something we've never done.
So I think that as we... empower AI with this ability.
This is not just for robots that can, you know, pick up glasses or a cube.
This is for lifting all of humanity's capability, because we can collaborate with machines having this capability.
Yeah, awesome.
And I actually have never heard the DNA answer from you before, so I love asking you questions that I have never asked you before.
There's a lot of discourse around, is AI overhyped, underhyped?
We're obviously here in the Valley, so everyone in the Valley more or less thinks underhyped.
People want to say, are we going to go through another AI winter?
What's your view about this discussion about what's going on with AI?
What would you say, hey, this is the parts that are underhyped.
These are the parts that are maybe a little too soon.
What's the guide to the whys on the current discourse and sorting wheat from chaff a little bit?
Oh boy, I have to be careful how I answer this question, but I totally appreciate this.
AI is a civilizational technology.
I'm not the only one saying this, but I truly believe because, even if you're inspired by humans and evolution, this is the ability to interact, intellectualize and to think.
To do is fundamental to humans, and a piece of technology that can do that is phenomenal.
In my opinion, it's more or less not overhyped as an intellectual future of humanity, because AI is the new computing.
If you look at today's world and just recognize where there are chips, Because chips are the physical places where computing happens.
From a light bulb to a self-driving car to an airplane, everywhere there's chips.
Well, it's very obvious at this point, wherever there is chip, there's compute.
Wherever there's compute... there will be AI if it's not there.
So, from that point of view, both from a business as well as use case point of view, AI is the future.
Obviously, when it comes to hype, I do think we have to be a bit nuanced.
For example, it took more than 20 years to go from Sebastian Thrun's first self-driving car.
That can drive a car 130 miles in the Nevada desert, which has no traffic.
Apparently Waymo running in San Francisco, right.
Well, you might say, well, because part of it is software.
It was pre-deep learning stage and software development was slower.
You're right.
It's definitely deep learning accelerated the brains of self-driving car.
But let's also not forget that car industry the entire supply chain as well as customer use basis, has been established for more than a hundred years.
And it's a very, very mature business model and very mature infrastructure and manufacturing and everything.
So if it took 20 years to get just cars, which is the simplest form of robot on the street, or Roombas but you know, I was thinking.
I knew he's gonna say that yeah so.
Yeah well, Roombas are mini cars yeah, so Roombas, actually I think cars are.
You know, it's literally a squarish box that moves on 2D surface and the only thing you have to do is not to touch anything right, because if you touch, you're screwed, and Robots does touch and, by and large, it's okay.
But robots.
The whole thing about robots is it's a three-dimensional machine that the whole goal is to touch things and touch it in the right way.
I mean, this is huge.
So I think there's still going to be a journey for robotics, for sure.
100%.
So one of the things to realize this civilization technology is to build trust.
And whether it's technologists companies, et cetera, et cetera.
What do you think the things we should be doing as leaders, as companies, as entrepreneurs, to help build trust?
Because it's obviously we only start realizing the real benefits once we get there.
Great question.
I know you and I both care about this.
One thing I feel very strongly is in the AI age, trust cannot be outsourced to machines.
Trust is fundamentally human.
It's at the individual level, community level, and societal level.
And this is why Reid was part of our supporters for the Human Centered AI Institute at Stanford.
We established that 2018, so way before this latest wave of AI blossoming, is because we recognize that, as machines get more powerful in its computing and reasoning and eventually even actionable capabilities, we need to establish a new norm that needs to be part of the fabric of the society where, within this norm, humans continue to have the agency to build trust with each other.
With the newer tools like AI, with more powerful product like chatbots and other things,
And eventually this trust has to be renewed or updated into our governance model, not just the governance of community and companies, but governance of the society at large.
So I do think trust is a very, very important element.
For this audience is very, very entrepreneur heavy.
I would just say care about this from the beginning, no matter what product or business you're doing.
Some of you might be in healthcare, you know how important it is.
Some of you might be just in the infrastructure SaaS, whatever application that feels like maybe that's more removed.
That's not true, because you're serving people, you're serving businesses.
Trust is really important.
Have that human agency. as the source of the trust.
Yeah, 100%.
And part of when, yes.
You know, part of the work that you know you and Etch were leading with the human-centered AI, which came from your New York Times column, is part of the thing that led me to focusing on agency as one of the things the elevation of human agency as one of the key things that we need to do.
So let's go to kind of the science side of it.
You've said it's important for scientists to be intellectually fearless.
So what does that mean for how we should think about inventing the future?
What does that mean for how science should progress?
In terms of the next generation of innovators, where should fearlessness play into that?
Well, if scientists need to be fearless, I think entrepreneurs need to be more fearless.
Fearless to me.
I love this word and this is part of the way I actually do.
Hiring is look for people, especially young people, with that fearlessness.
Fearless is to be free to get rid of the shackles that constrain your creativity, your courage and your ability to just get shit done.
And pardon my language, it's actually... It's a technical term.
Yes.
It's actually in our core culture of our company.
So it's that you know humans are not exactly the most fastest, strongest you know animals on earth, right?
We...
If you look at many of the dimensions, I was just in Africa this summer with my kids.
I mean, there's so many animals that are just so much better than us.
But I do feel that way.
Lots.
Yes.
But there's something that is in our brain, in our mind, in our soul that can propel us to do incredible things for the world forever ourselves, for each other.
And a lot of that come from our fundamental uniqueness of our creativity and our sense of community.
And all this
And in order to unleash that, especially as technology is moving so fast, To me the foundational emotional criteria is be creative, be free.
And that translates into be fearless.
Run into uncertainties, run into bold ideas that no one has made happen yet.
Run into contrarian hypotheses.
Run into hard tasks.
Someone said I forgot who said that tasks that are so uncertain right versus tasks that are uncertain are sometimes equally hard.
Choose the one that's more uncertain, because your creativity will be working harder, and that's where the magic happens.
So I love the word fearless, because that's where boundaries are broken and creativities are unleashed and magical things happen.
And...
And with that, you can see why we wanted to open the first fireside with Fei-Fei.
Let's give her a hand.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks to Dr. Fei-Fei Li for joining us at the Masters of Scale Summit.
This conversation was recorded on stage at the Presidio Theater in San Francisco.
Meet Emily Worden.
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