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Melissa, thanks for joining us today.
Kwame, I'm so excited to be here.
Yes, we are excited to have you, my friend.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
I can do that. So, my name is Melissa Fortinato.
I'm an FBI agent, have been for 23 years.
I'm not your typical FBI agent.
I have not whole, my whole life wanted to be in the FBI. I started as a, with a psychology degree and I was a counselor at a rape crisis center.
And I really thought that's where my life would go.
I would go on to be a psychologist and do counseling the rest of my life.
Just the way life turns out, opportunities present themselves, always try to say yes to just the next step and see where it goes and I had opportunity and it developed into me applying to the FBI and getting in so I started in I've been in our New York City office I'm now in our Cleveland office I do investigations that's the bulk of what my day is but I also have additional duties I originally started doing and worked for several years and trained as an undercover agent, did that for a few years.
I don't do that anymore.
I for the past 15 years have been working as a crisis negotiator, hostage negotiator for the FBI. That's amazing.
The one thing I will say is whether it's my agent duty of doing investigations, whether it's being a hostage negotiator, doing a kidnap for ransom, a barricade, whatever, or being an undercover, my psychology background, my counseling background has been the thing that I use probably every minute of every day.
So we talk to people in interviews, interrogations, just answering the phone for the person with a mental illness that thinks, you know, someone's coming to kill them or in my undercover or negotiation work.
It has been the skill that I use the most. It makes sense.
That makes sense. I, I know my undergrad degree is in psychology.
And when I was mediating one case, I, somebody said, So what do you do?
I said, I'm a lawyer.
And the like, you don't sound like a lawyer.
And then I said, Well, I have a background in psychology.
And they say, Ah, there there it is.
There it is. And I tell people all the time when you when you get a better understanding of how the brain works and what people are going through, and you can communicate empathetically, it really helps it.
It really amplifies everything else that you want to do as it relates to negotiation, difficult conversation and just human interaction as a whole.
So it's really great to see that you're able to use that at the highest level.
Yes, it's so interesting.
One of my favorite quotes is Eric Erickson, I don't know if you know the quote, but he says, the more you know yourself, the more patience you have for others or for something, something like that.
And I thought that is so true, that if you can really understand people and if you're fascinated by people, I think you have much more grace.
You're really willing to give people the benefit of the doubt because you can remember when you did stupid things or, you know, made mistakes.
And so I just think you're can be kinder.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
This is great. And Melissa, I'm very excited about this episode because this is going to be completely story -based.
And so you're going to share two or three stories from your career and then one from your personal life as well.
And we're going to use those as case studies to exemplify and demonstrate some of the negotiation techniques that people can use in their day -to -day So how would we just start off with the first story about the wedding?
Yes, so I have been so lucky in my FBI career that I have gotten to do just fun Interesting and challenging things.
So one thing I love about the FBI is if you raise your hand They will give you the responsibility if you're willing to take it so one of it started in an undercover case that I became involved in and and initially I got brought in.
It was already going on, but there were two male undercovers that had been working it for a little while and they were going to move on to meeting the next higher level target.
But what happened was they were going to go overseas to do this big deal and the target said, hey when you come over here, we'll get you all set up with women who will keep you entertained, if you know what I mean.
And the difficult part was both of these men are FBI agents, they have wives and children, and obviously wouldn't want to be in compromising positions professionally.
And so, initially I was just brought in as, hey, we need to like have a buffer that helps these male undercovers.
They just need a bit of cover so they don't have to be put in these situations.
so it was like, I can do that, that's easy, right?
But what ended up happening was that the targets overseas had strong connections in that community.
And our concern was, when we go over, they could do the hotel, house cleaning to hitch your room, to see are you staying together, are you not staying together.
So it ended up being this very uncomfortable moment with me and the other undercover, who we had met for probably 20 minutes, half hour before, we had to stay together for two weeks in a foreign country in the same hotel.
Super awkward because a lot of things happen in two weeks and you really get to know each other.
But what was so interesting is why we were over there in the two weeks, we were talking to the case agent and the case had gone so well and had really taken them to the next level for this case.
And the case agent was like, I don't know how we're going to get all of our targets kind of in one place when we do the arrests because they're spread out throughout the country and internationally at this point.
And I jokingly said, you should have Lou and I get married and we'll invite everybody to the wedding.
And the case agent, to his credit, was like, we're totally doing that.
And so for the next year on the case we built in that Lou and I were going to get married.
And so we sent wedding invitations, I got to call our higher headquarters and get a big fat fancy diamond ring I got to wear every time we went out.
And so then every time that there was a meeting, Lou and I would go and it just showed Lou in a different light to the targets, it enabled them to get to know me and I could get to know them and their partners.
I could ask different questions in different ways.
And that's why I think one of the best things about the FBI is our diversity of races, genders, backgrounds.
It brings so much more to the table because as a female, I can do different things that you Kwame as a male or my partner, Lou.
Certain things you may not be able to do or just don't seem appropriate for you, but I could get away with.
So, you know, I can take a bunch more pictures.
I can ask much more probing questions than men tend to ask each other.
And I can also gather more intelligence by kind of coming at it from a different angle and a different approach. And so, we did this for a year and then we brought everybody in for our wedding.
And I mean, at one point we had a bachelor, a bachelorette party, we had a rehearsal dinner.
So, as you talk about, you know, in negotiations, in undercover, it's all about building trust, having credibility, you know, just having like an intimacy, a relationship with this person.
I think it enabled not only for all of us involved in the case to really sort of show ourselves in a different way, it made the targets feel that they were more intimately involved, which built the trust level, which made them much more comfortable to open up about all kinds of things, which led us to much different areas and were very productive in the case, because we ended up taking the case down.
It was a very significant case at that time.
But I think what I love about the FBI is they will bring a bunch to the table.
I mean, at one point, I think we had like 10 undercovers in a room, and it just made It's such a more round picture.
We always talk about in negotiations and in undercovers preparing, setting the stage, shaping your environment.
And as undercovers and negotiators, what we try our best to do is to really do an assessment of who you're up against or who you're working with in your team and who you're negotiating with, and trying your best to gather as much of the little pieces of information and you can about them from all angles to put together a really complete picture.
Sometimes you don't get a full picture but you just start with what you know.
And we try to use as many people as we could and target people from all different areas and bring that all together to finally have this complete picture on them and then really build this rapport and relationship with them, which then enables us to commit crimes with them and gather evidence and then be able to successfully prosecute the case.
This is fascinating.
This is really cool.
And I I mean, I have I have to start my questions with the obvious one.
What happened to the diamond ring?
Well, you'll love this.
So I got my diamond ring and of course, as a I shouldn't say typical female, but they sent me five rings.
I just picked the biggest and.
But at the wedding, one of the bad guys bought us a present, which you do at a wedding, and he gave us his and and her matching Rolex watches.
So at one point, I was walking around with like a four carat diamond ring, a Rolex on my arm, but all of that then goes back to our FBI headquarters.
And the FBI uses that in all kinds of investigations to make people look the part they're trying to portray.
So yeah, I don't know.
Maybe someone's using the Rolex somewhere right now.
Oh, wow, this is fascinating.
This is great. And there's so many different angles, but I wanna go back to what you said about the value of diversity, because I think this is something that we don't think deeply enough about.
So I think you can think about it in terms of the, like the role and responsibility of somebody in diversity, equity, and inclusion within an organization.
But when I'm working with procurement teams, I'm trying to, I talked to them about the value of diversity in terms of personality, in terms of approach, how important it is, because they're multiple members of a team and we need people who approach things in different ways in order to find value in different ways too.
So can you speak a little bit more to the value of diversity when we are negotiating as a team?
Yes. So I know for us, diversity is the biggest thing.
And I use the example of the undercover, but it is true.
I did another undercover case when I was like eight months pregnant and somebody in our office was working a case, counterintelligence case, and they were targeting someone.
But the best approach was to send me in to their spouse.
And here I come walking in with my big eight -month pregnant belly.
You never in a million years think I am who I am as an FBI agent.
And so it s I just think the spouse can then connect with me as a woman, as a mother.
So even in procurement or any kind of negotiations, all the chances you get to make a connection, take advantage of them.
So even as a team, I mean, in our negotiation team.
So I run our Cleveland negotiation team.
And we could be in our negotiation operations center, in the middle of a negotiation.
And it could get really stressful at times.
But even as a team, we're really trying to come together because everybody has a different opinion.
Everybody has a different life experience or picked up something different that maybe I didn't hear.
And so it's so important to be respectful, to create an environment where everybody's thoughts and ideas are thrown on the table.
We may not use them all, but it's a safe place to throw everything on the table.
And then we'll analyze each one and say yes or no, or do we think this will work, or would we not think this will work, or hey, let's try it, see what happens?
And so that's why I think diversity is so important, whether that's an age, you know, I'm at the twilight of my career, but there's some new agents that come in that are amazing and smart and wonderful at things I can't do.
As a female, it's very different than some of the men that come in, and just how they approach other men is different than if I was approaching you, you may have a different interaction than if you approach with a male FBI agent.
We try to take advantage of all those opportunities and really shape the environment to be the most effective that we can be.
Yeah. This is intriguing.
I'm interested to explore a little bit deeper, the gender dynamic side of it that you've brought up a couple of times and when you think about gender diversity what are some examples of just further examples of how the the different interactions between different genders will result in in different types of you know value created for the team.
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Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I guess it depends on the person, really.
I should say that. I'm not strongly, I believe women can do wonderful things, but I'm not, rah rah, go.
I just think we all have different strengths and I think we're socialized in different ways.
And so you bring that to the table in your career it shows up different.
So, an example would be in one negotiation that I had, it was this like 15 -hour barricade standoff.
And in the 15 hours, I'm on a loudspeaker trying to get the person who has barricaded themselves inside attention and get them to communicate with me.
They're not saying anything.
They'd already fled from the police.
They had already shot at the police.
And so now I'm really, We're just trying to like if I can engage with you at all.
Because for me, my lifeblood listening and questions.
But if I can't get you to respond at all, I'm a little stumped, right?
Because I have nothing to work with.
So I'm trying all these things over 15 hours.
It's cold, I'm tired.
At a certain point, I don't want to be here.
And we were finally able to get in a robot so we could actually bring the robot right to the person and be able to communicate with them directly.
And before I was able to get there, the person that operates the robot started to talk.
And I didn't hear the beginning, but as I came in, this male officer was just saying, you know, you got a warrant, you got to come out now, enough of this, let's go.
And the person inside was, which didn't make sense at all the situation, what do you mean a warrant?
He was well aware that he had a warrant.
So even his response wasn't making sense.
And I just thought, I don't want to get into this fight with him to start.
That's not where I want to be.
Even though I was tired and cold, and I get the approach because you're just frustrated after a certain amount of hours.
But when finally I just got on, and I just said, hey, John, we'll say his name, is there a reason you can't come out?
Like, what's going on?
I think it was just a softer approach. approach. It was a different approach because he had already kind of gotten into this head butting with the other officer that started.
And then I think when I came in, and I even said to him like, hey, his name wasn't John, but hey, John, it's Melissa.
I've been trying to talk to you.
I don't know if you've heard me, but I've been like yelling over a loudspeaker trying to get your attention for the past 15 hours.
I said, is there some reason like you can't come out?
Because at this point, we had knocked out almost every window in his house.
We had thrown gas in.
I mean, it's not like he didn't know we were there.
And then he explains to me, yeah, he actually only had one leg, and so he said, I can't find my crutches.
Now, I don't know that that was a truthful answer after 15 hours, but at least he probably was tired after 15 hours.
He was probably realizing, where is this going?
And so it gave him a chance to maybe save face, to maybe try to come to an ending situation.
And I said, okay, well, where are they?
And it was enough that then we could see him, I could talk to him.
And then we were able to get our SWAT team into like a better position to be able to affect the arrests at that point safely.
So I think gender -wise, sometimes it can just become more of a battle.
And if you change the dynamic of a male to female, you can't help but change the reactions between the two.
Sometimes it's just bringing in a new person, doesn't always have to be a different gender.
Right. Yeah. So I think just there's a lot that we could dig into there.
But if we're thinking too big picture type of things, well, first we could say just switching it up in general can be helpful.
Um, when we get a different voice in there, there's going to be a different response, but then also thinking about it in terms of gender with that example, there might've been a situation where it's like, okay, man to man, they might have a little bit of ego where the person's not willing to back down and be more vulnerable and open up.
And then when he heard your voice, OK, now I'm paying more attention, I feel a little bit more comfortable opening up.
Am I kind of reading that the right way?
I think that's right.
I mean, I don't really know what that person on the inside, you know, we're coming to his home.
He's barricaded himself in his home.
I mean, definitely there's an ego thing.
He's afraid his liberty is about to be taken.
And it is. I mean, he knew that like, so he knew he knows there's a warrant.
He knows he's going to go to jail.
We had already done a search warrant at his house.
He was a child pornography subject, they do not fare well in prison so all these things are making him at least in the moment I think when we started just digging in.
And so if I had a chance to talk to him for the whole 15 hours that might have been interesting, we could have got to a different place, I could have understood more about him but I don't know if just time and all those other factors helped him be much more open to being in a position that we could get in more safely at that time.
But I just think it always changes up the dynamic.
It's hard in our world.
You should always consider maybe switching out negotiators.
But even in business negotiations, I think people just get dug in.
You know, I started this I want to finish it.
So that's hard sometimes to switch it up that way.
But sometimes you switch up tone or a question that you ask.
It's just a different way to switch it up or just change gears with what you're talking about is another way to switch it up.
if you can't physically change the person.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And one of the things that you mentioned a couple of times was the value of connection.
And I think in the business world, in our personal lives, we can get so focused on being right, having the right answer, or whatever it happens to be that we, like you said, we get dug in and we want to almost beat the person into submission with our moral or intellectual superiority.
And this might surprise people, but people don't like that.
They don't like that, right?
And when you think about it from your perspective, you could interpret this as a situation where you have a lot of leverage.
So you have a situation where there's somebody, you know where they are, and you have the full force of the United States government behind you.
And so, I mean, hypothetically, if you wanted to, you could just march in and take everything, right?
Yes. But you still see the value in connecting even though you have an incredible amount of leverage and authority in the situation.
So why lean so heavily on connection when you have so much leverage?
Because it works. I mean, we lean on it because it works.
And I agree with you, for some reason, people do fight it.
There's been a high level academic, Harvard's or whatever have done studies on this, very smart people have said, I remember one study of that guy, Ichikov.
I don't know if you've seen him, but he talks about high quality listening and how effective it is that if someone really feels listened to, how they are much more open to maybe changing their opinion.
They're much more open to considering your side than if they feel like they're not listened to, people just dig in.
And I see that every day in my work just as an FBI agent or as I did as an undercover or as a negotiator.
You're right, people wanna be heard. I feel like in the world these days, everybody, I don't know if no one's getting listened to anymore and that's why everybody's screaming so much more but I just feel like we've gotten to the point in this life where everybody it's It's more important to just go to your side and hold firm and that For some reason if you're willing to even concede just a little bit that maybe Kwame You have a different perspective than I do that if I say to you.
Well, that makes sense I can understand that part that somehow I've given up some point.
I'm weak on my side.
I to see another person's perspective and adjusting your view, your stance, you still know, we always know.
Like you said, as FBI agents, I have the power to just come and grab you and go.
But we see a lot of repeat offenders.
I don't want to have a bad interaction with you.
That does not help my partner that may interact with you when you get out of jail in five years or ten years.
If you had a bad experience with me, I then put all future people in danger.
That's not what I'm here for.
I have a job and I'm willing to do it, and we have a power for it, but I don't have to use it as a hammer.
I can use it as a reality check to you if you're giving me a hard time.
I could say, But here's the thing, I do have a search warrant.
And I know that's upsetting to you.
And I know you don't want me in your home.
But I do have it. But I understand that's hard, because I'm coming in your house, and I'm walking on your carpet and dirtying it.
And you don't like that.
And we could talk about that why the rest of my team does the search. But you know, so it's OK to say I have a job to do, but you don't have I don't have to be all muscle, all strength.
I mean, we have so many more tools.
Why not use them? Yeah.
And I love your response because at the very beginning, very simply, you said because it works.
That's the reason why we do it.
And I think a lot of times people wait to feel like doing these things.
I want to wait. I want to feel like empathizing.
I want to feel like treating people respectfully.
Oh, I'm not feeling it today, so that justifies me not doing it.
But that doesn't make it effective.
Right. When it comes down to it, you have a goal.
And the reason why you use connectivity, like connection with people is because it works.
And again, you, you've provided what is an extreme example, because again, You are justified legally to do whatever you will.
Like, you have a lot of leverage, right?
But you're using connection, which is something that we all have. We all have the ability to use connection.
You know, and you're using it because, this free tool is the thing that is the most effective.
Even as you have like a SWAT team pointing guns at people, right?
And that's incredible.
We do use it. I mean, we use our SWAT team as part of our, I've talked about shaping our environment, right?
We use that. So sometimes I will use them visually to create more of a presence if that's more effective.
I may also have them back up if that also would help the situation.
So we have this parallel approach with our tactical teams. And the thing that I've loved, I mean, I've been in law enforcement for 23 years, and I've seen the change.
We use negotiation so much more now, which I find fascinating, because we have power.
We could just use it.
But even every part of law enforcement is using negotiators so much more.
And our tactical teams, we we work so closely together now.
I think both realize what we both bring to the table and how effective they can be keeps everybody safe.
And if we can have a better interaction, we have nothing but time.
We can slow everything down.
You know, I would hate to say to a SWAT operator that went in that, you know, we went in too fast and somebody got hurt because, well, we just wanted to hurry up or it was cold.
I mean, that's not a good enough excuse to that person's family Or even to the person on the inside.
If somebody, unfortunately, has to get hurt, if there's a use of force, I want to say that we tried everything to not have that happen.
Because we want the world, we want the community to understand like, we're here as law enforcement just to enforce the laws.
We're not here to dominate.
That's not what we're trying to do.
Right, it makes so much sense.
And one of the things that you mentioned is you know that you have the hammer that you could drop if necessary.
And from time to time, when it meets your strategic objectives, you remind people and you called it a check.
But what was interesting about the example that you gave is you said, hey, we do have a warrant and we can come in, but I understand that would be very inconvenient for you, right?
Because you gave that slight flex to let them know, hey, I do have the power and I'm choosing not to use the power.
And you now, the person on the other side, you have an opportunity to have some level control of this interaction.
We can continue to interact together and continue to communicate, or you could put me in a position where I have no choice but to drop said hammer.
And so can you give this is this is a really important point because in negotiation we have of course the BATNA, the best alternative to a negotiated agreement.
And sometimes when you let somebody know about your BATNA, if you don't do it in the right way, it can come off as a threat which damages the connection that we work so hard to create.
So how do you let people know that you do have power.
You do have options.
You have a solid BATNA without it diminishing the quality of the connection that you created.
It's so important. Autonomy is so important.
People are desperate for it.
Right. Everybody wants to feel they have some level of control of something.
I think we just talked about this with you at LinkedIn, like people are obsessed with control.
They are. They obsess that they have to control everything.
And every minute of every day, we see it on our side and I see it on the other side.
And so I'm aware of that.
And like every good negotiator, every good human.
You should always think about what am I about to say and how would it land?
And how would I feel if somebody said that to me?
And so I don't want to take somebody's autonomy, especially if you've taken a kindergarten hostage, right?
I'm not going to flex on you.
But there's a point where I do probably have to give you a reality check of like who we are and what are we doing.
And sometimes you have to say the elephant in the room.
You because I think it shows your level of respect for that person that you don't think they're stupid and missing it.
It also establishes your credibility by saying, I'm not stupid and I'm not missing this either.
And so, there's a way to flex, like you said, without it just being muscle flex. It could just be your intellectual savvy flex, my using my mind and being creative in the way that I say things to them.
Because I've said in negotiation with people, because they'll say, I don't, you know, what are you going to say?
I'm not going to go to jail?
No, no, I can't say that.
Like you're too smart.
You, you know, you've been through the system, you know how this goes.
But I'm trying to make this that it's not any worse for you, right?
Or if you have a room full of hostages.
I'm trying to make it so we don't take a step further, right?
I'm not gonna lie to you and say taking a kindergarten hostage is a, is a good thing, but, but we can stop it here.
We can stop our choices here from going down that path and we can make a different choice.
And so, a lot of times what we try to talk people through is changing their direction, you know, influencing that behavioral change stairway is, I want you to go in a different direction.
And if I'm smart enough and I'm patient enough and I take my time and develop that relationship and that connection, then I can subtly move people in different directions.
Mostly because you just present questions to them that have them change their own mind.
And that's the most powerful, if you can do that.
If I can get you to believe where we're going is the right way to go, we could walk out hand in hand because you feel good about it.
And that's my ultimate goal is that we both leave in a better way.
I love that. I love that.
And with the time we have left, I want to address the personal example of your negotiation skills in action.
And it was with your daughter and it was a medical situation.
Can you tell the audience about that one too?
Yeah. I know we had mentioned it before, and I say just talking about people, as a negotiator, I don't think people ask enough questions.
I think people get afraid or intimidated that if you ask questions, maybe it makes you look stupid that you don't understand.
And so why do you have so many questions?
You're not getting this.
And so people just keep quiet.
And I was telling you about, I had a situation with my daughter, our one daughter, who had to go in the hospital, and she was in the hospital for a few days.
And we were meeting with all these different doctors and so neurologists come in and all these residents and they're all smart and using big words that I don't even fully understand what they mean or how it relates to my most precious baby here.
And I remember in the moment feeling slightly intimidated and overwhelmed with, I didn't even know where to start with a question because I felt like I had to go to medical school to be able to understand where they were at and so I just said, you know, hey I'm sorry what's going on." And so I said, can I ask you a bunch of questions?
And he said, go ahead.
And so I went and I just went down the list because I didn't understand this part.
Okay, now I understand this.
How does it relate to that?
Okay, now so what does that mean for this and where do we go next?
And I got done with all my questions.
They left. And the next day, one of the residents came back into her room and was just checking in on her.
And he said, can I ask you a question?
What do you do for a living?
And I thought, I don't know what this has to do with anything." So I said, I'm an FBI agent.
And he was like, ah, I was wondering, because the way that you asked the questions and how detailed you were in all your questions, I thought, oh, you have to be a lawyer or something.
And it just showed me in that moment that I was afraid of looking stupid and it ended up coming out to make me look better because I looked more engaged and thoughtful and intentional.
And I just, It just hit me in that moment, I just thought, you shouldn't be intimidated, you should ask, you should fully immerse yourself in the situation.
If you have questions, ask them.
We have so many people in negotiations that you're like, we'll take a break or there's a break in the negotiation as a team.
They're like, did he say XYZ?
And what did that mean?
And I always say, I don't know, you should ask.
Because if you don't know, ask.
Because then that way everybody has a clear picture of what's going on.
And I think think that's the most important thing because every question gives you more information, more information, the better, because then we can understand what sort of your interests are, what our options are on the table, and then we can come to a better outcome.
Yeah. And I think this story gives a great example of just two big barriers that get in the way when it comes to asking questions.
So one is fear. Fear of what?
Maybe fear of getting the answer that you might receive.
It might be fear of looking stupid.
I know Ego is a big part of it because when you ask a question, there's a tacit admission of a lack of knowledge.
And so we're afraid of sharing that ignorance.
And so that's a problem.
But then also I think this is one that I know I haven't explicitly discussed on this podcast, but this gives a great example of is I don't know where to start.
There's so much that I want to know.
So many questions that I have that I do not even know where to begin.
it's almost like trying to find the starting point on a circle.
Everywhere seems like an appropriate place to start.
And when you just start asking the questions, you realize that you'll gather more information and that information will lead your subsequent curiosity, but you need to start.
But sometimes people say, I don't know where to start and as a result, I simply will not start.
And I won't ask the questions that I need to.
But again, you just said, listen, there's a lot I want to know.
I'm going to just pick a question and I'll start there.
You don't need to overthink it and I think that's what holds people back.
It does because you can't it could just be like a mental overload and you just shut down.
Like you said, just pick a spot.
It doesn't have to be perfect.
It doesn't have to be the best spot.
It doesn't have to be a spot they think is great.
Just start. Yeah, just start.
I love that. Yeah. And one of the things I've noticed too is that sometimes I ask a question and I get lucky and I say, oh yeah, this was a good place to start.
Sometimes I ask a question and then they give an answer.
I was like, no, that wasn't the right place to start.
But you know what? I find out, I figure out now this subsequent question will be a better place to start.
And so starting is always the answer to the question of where to start.
I love that, yep. Oh, this is great.
Yeah. So this certainly will not be your last time on.
Of course, you have autonomy and you have choice.
But if I have a choice.
I would love to, and my choice would be yes.
Thank you, this is great.
This was really helpful.
Before you go, any parting words of advice to the listeners before you head out?
No that's my biggest thing.
Be good listeners, ask lots of questions.
You'd be amazed what you get.
People are desperate to be able to tell their story, to be able to talk and share, it's like air to them if you can listen.
So if you can give that to your kids, to your colleagues, to whomever you're negotiating with, I just think it is the easiest place to start.
I do find in some of the negotiation stuff, it's a 1000 techniques, everyone uses a different acronym, everybody calls it something different.
We spin it into a different diagram.
Everybody's checking, have you read this book and this book?
Do you know this? It doesn't matter.
This isn't rocket science.
This is people. This is human beings.
Just listen. Start with the benefit of the doubt.
You can always, in our world, I'm always going to come in and give you the benefit of doubt and assume you're a decent enough person, because sometimes I see people that aren't decent, but you have something and I'm going to find it.
If not, and you don't want to show it and it escalates, I can escalate.
But if I come in too hot?
I can never step down.
So it's so much easier for me to come in with the benefit of the doubt, and then we'll see where this conversation goes.
So I just think it doesn't have to be, you said you don't have to overthink it.
This isn't hard. Yes, I love this.
Melissa, thank you so much for joining us, we really appreciate it.
Kwame, I love this, thank you so much. Congratulations, you've just joined an elite club.
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