(EXCLUSIVE) Boris Johnson: "They Were Looking at Engineering The Virus" And The Government Tried To Bribe Me! | The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

Do you really think I was deliberately partying and breaking the rule?

It's all about leading by example is what sorry but to say it was a party is a complete travesty Seeing that photo when one of my friends can go to their grandmothers funeral is the most Enraging thing I think all gatherings should have been banned at number 10 because I think you mean gathering gatherings with alcohol

and music And cake you should never have allowed that to happen right Apologize for that the former prime minister of the UK whose reign included brexit kovat and the Ukraine war He's one of the world's most famous politicians on this point of brexit How did David Cameron react when you said you're

going to vote leave?

He said if you come out and support leave I will you up forever Because if you support remain you can have a top five job in the cabinet But it's not a bit corrupt and is that how the job's are dished out in the government at the moment look I'm sad to say that it's probably been the way politics has been

since the dawn of time And then this letter you wrote about the decision to leave or stay within the EU which was unpublished you seemed torn So do you regret Brexit?

Well The next big thing was the pandemic was a lot of stuff We didn't know and I think it almost certainly was a lab accident They were looking at engineering viruses and ways that they could manipulate it Sadly something went wrong when you talk about lockdowns you refer to them as bonkers Which is strange

hearing it from the guy that put the rules in place Well did the benefits of lockdown outweigh the very very severe damage done to kids What do you think the answer to that question is honestly?

I think I just wanted to ask a few more things Trump or Kamala who's the best for international relations?

How many kids do you have?

Charlie Owen you're not related Terry and then you have quite distinct persona people describe you as being a buffoon when I first saw You I thought you were a parody from both selecta Is it calculated well to get people the interest in politics?

You got a sugar the pill but also your mother said you had certain mechanisms to cope with pain because your mother is sent to a Psychiatric facility when you attend I read there was physical violence in the house and then 14 your parents get divorced Yes, we were in sunset.

My father told this and I was look I was cross and said, you know So what so why did you have us there?

I Boris Steve what 20 to understand about Your earliest years to understand the man that you are today.

I think that Key thing is My Wonderful happy very kind of peri -grenade in childhood In the company of my siblings the key fact was that after a 18 months of existence my sister Rachel was born and Ever after it was just a constant struggle to keep the the pretense of Primacy with my with my siblings,

but I think it is probably true to say that healthy Incessant sibling Interaction competition whatever you want to call it rivalry Definitely played a part in my formation and we used to make fun of it too.

We used to think it was rather pathetic We all knew that there was a culture of trying to win to me to say little baby wants to win and so we were kind of we competed but we also deprecated the competition at that age Say before the age of 10 How does that manifest in terms of a feeling?

Because you can in hindsight say okay, I was competitive.

But how did it feel?

You know because you felt like fun But but this idea that Rachel came along and then you were vying for attention and competition with her How did how does that feel when you're under the age of 10 because your your your father at least was very very busy as A man, so I'm presuming he wasn't necessarily so present

I was reading you moved house 32 times in 14 years.

Yeah, but that okay.

I mean he was Um But really I think I speak for all of my siblings now when I say that you really couldn't have had a more Loving caring, you know, they they both of them.

I mean, they're both very busy.

But if my mother and father mother was painter My father.

Yeah, right. I did a huge number of things But they did invest a lot of time in us.

I mean really a lot It sounded like you had a rough sort of first ten years of life because you also had gluia Which is which made you deaf?

Yes. Well, I I think we need to look very carefully at the I Definitely had adenoids and I had tonsillitis and I spent a lot of time in some bahts and Have my adenoids out my thoughts not everything like that and I did have gluia but it but my my deafness There's no trace of it now.

I particularly I kind of wonder whether it was in fact a Coming means to avoid my mother's questions and I think I'd look I mean this I don't know It may be that I wasn't as deaf as as all that I mean, would you ever do that if your mother was asking you something you didn't actually want to engage

and I don't think I'm that I mean eight years old Your mother Charlotte and she had four children you were the oldest of those four She seems to be a really important character in your life In fact when I opened up the first couple of pages of the book you you dedicate the book in memory of Charlotte

your mother I do she was an artist.

She had made painting paintings of Children, but also other things I saw some of those paintings.

I did some research on those paintings But one of the sort of really pivotal moments in her early upbringing is that she suffered from obsessive -compulsive disorder she did yeah You're what ten years old when your mother is?

in Put as an inpatient in a psych psychiatric hospital and your past year eight months Something like that.

Yes. What what impact does that have on you in terms of?

shaping shaping the Boris that we know today if any I mean, I remember it all very very well and it's hard to say exactly what impact it had on me, but I think what Certainly happened was that all four of us all four of the children that that my mother had we definitely Kind of coagulated as a as a group

because it was a tough time there were more the Aspects of the work were tough because you know, she she wasn't always there and so I think it did breed a certain kind of group solidarity and She always kind of blamed herself for not being there for The eight months whatever period it was and I I remember

feeling very strongly that that was unfair and and that she Actually, you know did an amazing job and You know, you couldn't you couldn't have asked for more.

Did you notice her?

Anything unusual about her behavior before she was yes.

No, so you the OCD thing is absolutely right She did have that and you know, it was it was very difficult And I'm sure people who are watching this know exactly what it is, but you're lots of different Patterns of behavior one of the one of them was was about cleanliness so so so the so the she she

washed her hands and then she she realized in order to Turn the tap off.

She'd have to touch the the force it this bigger and and she didn't want to do that because That would make her hands dirty again.

She thought that you know, this is a very well known Symptom and she and she totally got over it.

She totally got over it.

She got through it.

Why was she Sent to a psychiatric facility Um Well, I guess because she's I think That's a jolly good question, I don't know really didn't really know the answer I think I think she Probably said that she thought she could benefit from Therapy and That's what she and my father decided to was the best

way forward but I I Honestly, don't know the answer to that and who looked after you while she was in that facility At ten years old.

Well, my father was there and we had a wonderful series of a pair girls and nannies and so on so forth 14 years old and they were they were all great too, but you know, I don't I don't you know I don't want to give the impression which would not be fair that my mother kind of Was Absent for long periods

or wasn't a presence in our lives.

She really was it was more her words I saw her doing an interview where she was talking about Her belief that you had certain mechanisms to cope with the pain of her going to the facility for eight months But then also the divorce when you were 14, I thought those ages that sort of puberty Age where you're

figuring yourself out To get such a jolt of bad news is yeah, I think that's I mean classically yes and Look, I'm not gonna I think you're onto it.

You know, there's there's There was an element of self -defense that then you know, many kids in my position then develop But I do insist that they both remained remote remarkable parents We know it wasn't like we were suddenly cut adrift by either of them on the contrary self -defense Well, no, I don't

know I mean I'm quoting her on me by the way, so I'm quoting I'm quoting you quote quoting her I do that so you know, but I mean We didn't cut it didn't occur to me at the time Yeah, I don't think it can for a 14 year old but in hindsight as an app as a man you go Okay, that was I created a pattern.

I didn't know but I mean, but maybe I've got nothing else to compare it to right?

You know, you're growing up.

Anyway, you're becoming more self -reliant.

You're gonna do things to yourself Which I think so go back to where it was with my my brothers and sisters I think certainly, you know, it was another thing that drove us all together Why self -defense and how did that self -defense manifest in terms of behavior?

I'd be the worst type of I wouldn't be think how did I how did I how did my self -defense manifest?

I suppose I became Yes, my questionably it was painful How did I protect myself against that?

Well one obvious thing to do I suppose all we all do I think I find the best therapy for every type of pain emotional pain is to Try to lose yourself in your work emotional pain is is about a Lot of but it's about self -esteem.

So so like with when parents split up you know you the shock is Well, you you can't love us that much.

But if you're doing this, right, that's the that's what it's all about Which is not true of course, but that's what the children as what children feel they feel it's their failure.

There's something wrong with them and That's not true, but that's how kids feel I suppose to protect myself against that like I had a Natural avenue to build up my Self -esteem and that was academic work That kind of thing but again and you know another I suppose another type of of competition and it

It is a good therapy Work is at work is a is a great Reliever or distraction?

well It depends on your sort of theory of psychology, but I Think it both Why did they divorce, you know, I think formally speaking what had happened was that You know, my mother has simply decided she wanted to make another life and she you know, she she found someone wonderful and all rest of it but I

think that my father and A mother The weird thing about their divorce was that they both continued to be very strongly affectionate towards each other and You know, I'm again, I'm not trying to minimize the Psychological importance of any of this stuff for us as kids But that was immensely fortifying

because it was so obvious that it wasn't like they were at war I mean, you know, they had a big bust ups, but it was We felt that there was a real Residue of of love and affection between even if even if it was I mean, I think the way the way we explained it to ourselves was that there was still a residue

of love and affection, but that it was just practically impossible for them to to continue and so that was that was how we rationalized it and They both found other people and and were very happy you say bust ups that from everything that I've read There was physical violence in the household when you're

younger Yeah, well, this is this is something that has been alleged by Sadly by one of my biographers So it's something sort of pompous thing to say one of my boggles with some guy wrote a book and Put that stuff in you know, what I can tell you is I have no direct knowledge of what he said I don't

want to Get into it because I don't want to be disrespectful to my mother's memory and I suddenly don't want to say anything that I would cause Pain or embarrassment to my father.

So but I can but I can say is I had as a child no direct knowledge of it myself what to done their relationship teach you that marriage and love was They They say they met at university They clearly loved each other But I think if you ask my siblings though, they'll they'll tell you that So that you

know it was upsetting When when they split up because do you remember the day they told you?

Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do.

I do it was it was a we were we were in we were in Somerset and My father said that we all had to go and and up by the gate towards the engine shed So you enter stood by the gate towards the engine shed and and we were told this, you know sad news What did he say?

I? Don't remember exactly.

I don't remember exactly but I was look I was cross and and and said, you know So what so why did you have us then?

Because I thought well As you know, I think It is upsetting and It is Kids do take You know kids take it upon themselves, right?

And so they do they do think that there must be some fault or mistake in that in themselves and That isn't that isn't true.

I mean, you know you It's very important for kids not to play themselves for these things so I think that That's you know back to the pod eyes making earlier on with you I Think You know, you do need to Feed the Your self -esteem and you need to get yourself back up again and so work Was my with my way

of doing it. I Could see the the emotion in your face when you talk about that moment as if you were teleported back to that moment for a second.

Yeah Yeah, I mean it may look at me the actual the truth is I'm I'm now told in retrospect that that is what I said I don't personally remember it.

Hmm. I'm about feels Yeah, but look I mean yes, but I really wouldn't want to over egg it because My parents were incredibly kind to each other after that You know when you do this and you throw the the coal in the I'm just stoking the furnace of my Yeah, yeah, you um, you have quite a distinct persona at your

I mean much of web you sort of first came to public knowledge Was on the TV show have I got news for you?

Yeah, I know I think the BBC a very they live in permanent state of horror about what they did that because you know I think that's one of the reasons that they I think they they have terrible sense of corporate guilt that they unleashed this thing Is is there a link between your persona?

Hemedic kind of you know people often describe you as being a bit of a buffoon I actually thought you were a this is just being honest because I feel like it's important to be honest Wait to someone if you've said it behind their back, but I when I first saw you on the screen I was a very young man.

I must have been I'd know 14 and I thought you were a parody from both selector like I thought But then I came to learn it and when you did the mayor thing etc that you're a politician and who you were and where You'd come from but the out the out external person is very a typical of a politician, right

and your general Comedic sense that that shows up in the book a lot You were very comedic on have I got news how I haven't got news for you Is that at all linked when did that behavior show up?

Because there was two points of reference that I was mulling One is things your sister said about where you sort of learned that comedy was a useful device And the second one is something Jimmy Carr actually said to me He said to me that um, he goes if you ever meet anyone communic or a comedian Don't

ask them if they're depressed ask them which one of their parents they were trying to cheer up or win favor from I wanted it for I think I don't know I think that One of the things I tried to do in politics is to get people interested and One of the front do unleashed which is unquestionably a a mixture.

There's a lot of serious argument in it, but also I'm trying to tell the story in as readable aware as possible and You have to you have to use You gotta sugar the pill you've got a it's like it's like it's like a packet of digestive biscuits If you've got to have so each of the chapters Has a some

solid, you know wheat germ Pabulum But it's covered with them some a little layer of chocolate Did you say sick you see you come you go down you go down the packet compulsively and each of those 60 chapters I think there are 60 chapters in that book is designed to Give you a bit of both so you the pill

that was sure that you should get yourself.

No. I it's well I'd know that there are it's the fact of the Great things that I think that we did, you know, we took back control of our of our country We we had a we went for a type of independence that people thought was impossible Arguments about Least about you you know as a guide to the last 15

years in in politics and it's it's pretty useful But I mean you I worked in marketing for about 15 years So I find it quite fascinating that right now in the world It seems that there's a certain type of a typical personality that's breaking through and being resident.

Is your persona a Carefully constructed marketing Strategy or is because someone I've someone that knows you referred to as a bit of a loner in private and a quite quiet person Yeah, I live I so I'm very I have a wonderful life.

I I spend my time. I Do a lot of painting.

I I do a lot of reading and writing I'm a crime about my kids.

It doesn't take much to you know, my cup to run ever with happiness But you know all this stuff Wow, I know but that's I got I was a little energy But but you always have a lot of you understand that that's part of your persona, right?

But I'm trying to understand is it calculated is it something that you've Thought about and you understand is effective Because they describe you as being one of the best sort of Election winners of our of our time.

I think what people will I don't know I mean what people will also say is that I Haven't really changed I Mean, you know going back to your earlier earlier line of question.

I can see where you're going with this You're saying as part of the strategy for defense do we adopt good comedic persona or whatever I Don't think that was I think it was just with my brothers and sisters in our family There was a kind of horror of you know Being dull or not saying anything.

Yeah, we had to you know, we had to amuse each other.

Why? That was only polite You know because it was more fun Brothers and sisters are less amusing than you are I wouldn't say that That's a very controversial.

You said you would say that I would know I would not say that you would say that who I would say that Yeah No, I've not but then you got to get Leo on this show for your sister my brother Joe.

Yes Honestly, there's a serious risk of We Had a wonderful childhood because and they wouldn't deny this because we all You know we had a lot of fun trying to Interest in a muse each other and and and and you to your point probably our parents as well Cuz your sister so to say that we were we were you

know, we didn't we didn't do kind of charades and Christmas Mosques and plays and God knows what Jeremy Corbyn said Boris is a calculated intelligent who lives in a persona Which is the opposite?

Is that true at all No, I mean I think that and I wish you worked for you in some ways I but I don't I Cuz most of your most viewed videos on YouTube, are you tackling a small child while playing rugby?

By the way, he might he would I reckon could be much older than he looked That the guy in Japan the kid you tackled the kid who's in Japan the one I sent in October into they're all comedy videos Yeah, he would he anyway Eaton it's pretty crazy to me.

So you went to eat him at 13 years old It's the crazy thing for me is that approximately 20 of the 57 individuals who have served as prime minister Went to Eaton which is roughly 35 % of the UK Prime Minister's were educated at Eaton roughly Yeah this for me when I read that I go something's broken here because for one

school to contribute so many of the most powerful people in in the land feels like a little bit of Like someone's got their hands on the scale or there's some kind of that's why you need to read leveling Read the book because the book contains this of the whole fit theme of the book, right?

Not the whole theme of the book It's one of the major themes of the book is about leveling up Yeah, and if you remember what I say about it, I don't really you got through that bit but I So I went there on scholarship.

It was fantastic. I was very lucky I was I was paid for by the by Henry the sixth or the legacy of Henry the sixth and I remember feeling this incredible sense of Amazement that There were kids from some of the most famous illustrious families in in Britain who plainly Didn't have you know much?

intellectual interest academic, you know Spark in them and and kids who come from backgrounds all over the country who were incredible and I and I might my insight at school very very very young was There's a fundamental problem, which is that there is Ambition and energy and genius and talent probably

completely evenly distributed throughout the UK population and Opportunity is not Yeah, and that is the problem that is the basic formula country and This country has more potential arguably than any other major European economy because it's so imbalanced and if you look at the the Propology schools

like my prompts and London in the southeast in the UK economy.

It's actually unlike France Germany, Italy Holland.

It's also totally unlike the United States and so I I decided very early on the the There was massive massive wasted potential and So one of the things so when I became mayor of London one of my biggest Projects was really the biggest thing we did was really all about trying to lift the the the boroughs

that people said were were locked in a permanent cycle of disadvantage and and You know, you know what?

I mean the in a the in a donut of London at me where you know All that and it was total rubbish total rubbish and you can you can change people's Aspirations, but you can then also change the culture of achievement and And I saw it happen in London and I was only mayor for eight years But in that period

you really did see the city change in quite a significant way and I believe very very strongly That that is fundamentally what needs to happen in the whole of the UK And and I think that this is the job of polisher.

I don't care whether they're labor or conservative or whoever I think that that is that is what we need to be doing and I think there are very simple ingredients The popular does not there's limits to what politicians can do But there are some simple things that politicians need to be doing to make

that happen Has the conservative government done well enough at leveling up the the whole of the UK over the last decade?

Yes, obviously not Because it's not happening for it is.

I mean it is happening leveling up is happening but if you look at this, but it's nothing like fast enough, yeah, and You know, so, you know, I was proud of doing things like Running out gigabit broadband from you know, seven to seventy percent or sixty nine It's only percent of of households in in three

years, which is not not bad going as proud of all the infrastructure stuff We were we were doing I think it's a mistake to to stop that Infrastructure is crucial for Leveling up transport infrastructure is a great is a great equalizer of opportunity so things like HS2 northern powerhouse rail we should be

going on with those in in my view and You know, whatever my my defects as a politician I think one thing I was good at was getting a lot of stuff done fast and get and driving and driving project Projects, but the problem is Eton Eton was to me about your question That youthful experience Was So I was also primary

school in in London and I really really decided that This was because I think our country has this problem Worse than most other country most comparable countries But if you think how if you think of how strong the UK economy already is Then imagine what we could achieve If we leveled up right during this this stat around

Eton that 20 out of the 57 individuals who've served as prime minister came from there, isn't that Just the clearest example of the fact that it is Yeah, the people that are coming into politics, but also generally the people that are getting to the top in society are starting with a unfair advantage

to some degree I well, I think what it shows is that I I Mean you could probably point to cultures like France or wherever where you know that a lot of the the country is run by the the people from the great schools But yeah, I mean fundamentally Yes, I so I think that the so this is a great great choice

for pop if anybody who's interested in public policy is Well, okay, this is a this is clearly clearly a problem.

It's clearly wrong It's clearly imbalanced.

What do you do? Do you set out to launch a kind of cultural assault?

Paul Potts style on the successful institutions Would you say?

actually, what we're going to do is Try to spread opportunity so it's more like America and and if you look at America Is the growth rates are spectacularly outperformed European growth rates there's a different sense people have a different sense of what they can do and We need to have a we need to

have a culture in the UK where people don't feel prisoners of their Geography of their background that's certainly is the case isn't at the moment in the UK too much the case Oh, it's less than it was I went under cover on a I went undercover in a school in Liverpool That's was very poorly ranked on the offstead

rankings I remember being in that school and just thinking how on earth are these kids gonna have a chance?

They're not gonna have a chance if their teachers tell them that they're never going to get into a Russellbrook University And they did and they well what I observed when I was there was I observed one teacher Running from one classroom to the next classroom.

This was under a Tory government Trying to teach two classes at the same time and I remember sitting down with her cuz I because I got like that a school So I had a bit of my own prejudices about school I thought teachers were the problem and what I came to learn from speaking to the headmaster of the school

was that this is Effectively run like a business and the amount of students that choose that school every year determines how much money the school is given by the conservative government and The amount of the parents choose schools based on the league table and the league table is determined by grades

So really if you think about the the structure here The reason why they're driving kids like me to do subjects Which I absolutely hated when I was really interested in business was because if they don't get me to get well They used to seize whatever the nonsense is and so in subjects Less they rank

poorly in the league table.

That's right less parents choose the school They get less money from the government and it's this downward spiral and because this school is right So people are people are naturally skewed to doing subjects of paps that Just of them they had me pushing some plastic baby around the school and health

and social care when I was Running businesses in the school and I was I was spending so much time in my an exclusion unit Because I was falling asleep in classrooms turns out had ADHD I wasn't interested in these things But I was obsessed in these things the system is that is designed to just to just

sort of spread bet you across multiple subjects And you're a failure if you're not good at that, but going back to this sort of the the the Economics of the school.

I watch this teacher run from one classroom to the other teaching two classrooms at the same time And she told me that because less students had chosen that school this year She was having to pay for the footballs and the the pencils in her classroom This school I observed the quality of education with all

due respect. They did the best with with what they had But oh my god, it doesn't compare doesn't compare to a lot of the other schools that I've observed and I thought god these children in this school are Starting out life with a significant disadvantage and much of that is just down to the funding situation They

don't have the teachers the teachers are dropping like flights because they're getting sick because they're understaffed And I just thought that's such a if we think about you know What's the furthest upstream thing we can do to give people a fair shake in life so they can become a prime minister?

Or a CEO or whatever.

They want to be it starts there It starts with education and just giving everyone the same sort of a quality of opportunity But right now and especially under the the sort of last 10 15 years of government well I think I probably ought to run resist some of that because Yeah, I mean, I think teaching

is incredible. I tried to be a teacher myself It's it's it's unbelievably difficult and demanding job and I hugely admire teachers when I came in in 2019, we put a lot of money into into the education budgets and Made sure teachers were gonna be paid new new teachers starting to out of at least that thirty

thousand pounds and a Lot of money into further education And it actually if you look at that period of the conservative Administration, I think most fair -minded people say look actually look UK Went up the PISA rankings for literacy and numeracy most people actually would say the education was one

of the things where things did get better and I think the Driving out of the whole Academy program.

I mean not remotely denying what you say about The teacher you you the teacher you saw being being totally run run ragged and you know They need the maximum possible support, but If you look at the data Schools did get appreciably better in this country during that period now what I wanted to do was really

turbocharged that and give Not just school children, but also kids who left school at 16 the types of skills that they were going to need to Compete and to make sure that Business felt that they had in the schools in the FE colleges in wherever it was They had the talent that they needed to invest in that area because that's

ultimately what it's all about.

It's about having the The confidence That the the state is doing enough to deliver private sector investment That is that is ultimately what will transform the the neighborhood and and you get instead of getting the vicious circle of decline that you talked about you'll get a you'll get a positive fee

value and Parents wanna move that I want to send their kids to the school and school get a good rep a good reputation and And so things will things will turn right as they did in London.

Look at London schools You know, I can't I can't comment on the school you mentioned in Liverpool But London schools really really change a lot And with even with the leveling up thing one of the easiest ways to level up without building the train line Would just be to improve the quality of education in the I

think if you look at what conservatives did They really focused on that and they focused on the curriculum.

They focus on standards they focused on quality and I think that was very important because you know I mean, it's also very very important to fund schools properly but You know, you shouldn't underestimate what what a great teacher can achieve and the difference that they can make and You know if you

emphasize quality and you emphasize Attainment and you and you focus on that That's why I'm I think it's I'm slightly worried about what's happening now with with offstead I mean, I can understand why people don't like one word offstead gradings, but parents need to know Whether a school is gonna deliver

you went to Oxford University Then you had a job as a management consultant, which lasted only a week.

I hear yeah I wasn't really cut out for that You know you've been become a journalist.

Yes become a journalist for the next couple of years You then appear on have I got news for you?

Is it now is it now faded from the memory?

It's slightly it's slightly feeling a great show, but it's still slightly fading and you were then editor you must tell his lot this fate and and You were in a house of comms then eventually you run for London mayor, will you Expect to win the London membership?

I well you see this is the way you I hadn't got the faintest idea I mean seen the thing was that I'd actually been quite an admirer of Ken Livingston in the old days And I thought that he had some some Bolden original ideas for London.

I think I thought he was good on the environment.

He's got on air quality He was good on on that.

I thought there were some some good things that he that he did But it was clear that after eight years, you know you start looking a bit ragged Did you did you think you'd win?

I? Suppose I must have done.

I suppose I must've thought it was a good chance It was it was a pretty exhausting campaign If you asked me if I thought I would win something I can tell you in hindsight whether I thought I'd win I did soccer a last year this year and I can tell you if I thought I was gonna win Did you think you were going

to win when you ran?

I? Thought there was a goodish chance, but it wasn't obvious.

I mean I think the bookies didn't really have me as the favorite For a long time.

I think it then changed.

I can't remember exactly but You see you make your own love right?

I mean I had to I had to go there and make the arguments and I think one of the things that Ken didn't pay enough attention to was crime and I thought the Was a real issue that needed to be addressed and that was the the numbers of teenage kids being murdered We really really went at that hard and again,

it was one of those things where when I Together with a lot of other people Kip Malthouse deputy mayor and Stephen Greenhaldge Paul Stevenson the the Commissioner of Bernard Hogan how Who followed him we really really tried to fix?

Knife crime and gang crime.

I used to literally lie awake at night worrying about it because it was so on me You know every every single Casualty having to talk to the parents and you know the misery the misery of their suffering we really felt it and we and it was it was a good example of democracy because we pledged to fix it

and if we didn't We had nowhere to go One of the things I'm proud of is we cut the murder rate in London during my time by 50 % in 2016 at 52 years old you become co -leader alongside Michael Gove of the campaign to take Britain out of the EU when I when I look at your Premiership is prime minister of the UK.

There's three really significant moments.

Isn't there that typically don't fall all in one person's Role as prime minister you had the brexit issues you had covered and you had the Ukraine war Yeah, and before I before I talk about those particular issues In hindsight now, how do you feel about the fact that you had to contend with three?

generational Crises and issues but you know, that's the job of being Prime Minister, but most Prime Ministers don't get sure but but you know pandemic but leaving the EU some witnesses have had Wars some people have had terrible crises Sterling crises terrible.

Do you wish you got a different hand?

No I think actually do you think you'd still be in politics now and as Prime Minister if you if you've got a different hand No, I think there are I think honestly, I think there were other reasons for That I'm sorry.

I'm proud of of the things that we did with with The country I think it was very you know people now say our breaks of war actually, you know, one of the points I make it out in unleashed is that If you look at it the model of national independence that we got was crucial So full freedom to do what we

wanted in legislation and regulation that was actually crucial when it came to that pandemic Because we were able to vaccinate faster than any other European country a much faster.

I mean Did you think you were gonna win the Brexit vote?

Ice honestly when I was outside London.

Yes when I was inside London No, so whenever I traveled around the country, I thought my god people are going about there, but when I got back into the metropolis It felt very different so if you had to put your house on it Remain or leave in terms of the probability of the outcome what you your predicted

outcome which one would you voted on?

Well, I suppose were basically more for remain of her leave Um, but I sort of thought that our Voters were more motivated So I hoped that they would come out.

I hoped that they would That I was sure and it really did but on a scale that would no one had foreseen I mean because we had 17 .4 million people voted leave, which was the biggest number of voting for any proposition in history and and But, you know there were plenty of times like, you know You could be

in a tent in and I was at St.

Andrews University in Scotland for my daughter's graduation day And you really wouldn't thought that we were gonna leave talking to those people there.

So, you know It depended just interesting when I was reading your book But also when I was reading some of your previous writings, you seemed really conflicted on which way to go leave or remain Right up until you wrote your sort of first announcement piece that you were supporting leave you seemed

to be really really conflicted the reasons for For not leaving Where it seemed to me to be more to do with Britain's duty to the rest of Europe our need to be good partners.

I need not to be negative To be friendly I that was those were things that worried me people point the positive reasons for leave people point at this letter Which was unpublished, you know the letter I'm referring to the unpublished letter You wrote about the decision to leave or stay within the EU

is this over? No, you mean the article the unpublished article Yeah You said here's some of the phrases from that piece think of Britain think of the rest of the you think of the future Think of the desire of our children and our grandchildren to live and work in other European countries to sell things

there to make friends Perhaps to find partners there.

I like the sound of freedom.

I like the sound of a strong democracy But what are the downsides?

And here we must be honest There is the worry about Scotland about the possibility that the English only leave vote could lead to the breakup of the Union There is the Putin factor We don't want to do anything to encourage more shirtless wagering from the Russian leader Not the Middle East not anywhere and then

there is the whole geostrategic anxiety Britain is a great nation a global force for good It is surely a boon for the world and for Europe that she should be intimately engaged in the EU lastly This is a market on our doorstep ready for future exploitation by British firms The membership fee seems rather

small for all that access Why are we so determined to turn our back on it?

Shouldn't our policy be like our policy on cake pro having it and pro eating it or Europe and pro rest of the world?

so when I read that but then I also I read the Very vivid description you gave of that night when you're trying to make your decision in your book unleashed and you seemed torn But the guy that went out and campaigned didn't seem torn There was a there was a real lack of nuance in the campaign But there's

such a huge amount of nuance in both the moment you were making the decision in the articles you wrote about that decision There are arguments both ways and I I say it in the in the book and it's certainly true that as I said just now the the case for staying is like is I think a one about Not seeming

to be hostile. I'm not seeming to be detached but I had to decide Because the being in the EU isn't like just being in a club that where the rules don't Change it's it's a project to create a United States of Europe with a single currency with a single Parliament and and so on and I Thought that we

weren't ever going to get the choice again the chance again to have National democratic independence and as I said in so I wrote the set that article you just quoted was a sort of pastiche of a encounter argument which I wrote for myself as an exercise after I'd already written the piece to to come

out and I wanted to Set them side by side and to think the vast nuance, but the campaign wasn't nuanced But if you read the the other article, yeah you'll see the points that I came down in favor of and That was about having full national independence and be able to do things your own way and the trouble

with staying in the EU was that it meant that we were going to become less and less democratic and In the end you've got to be able to as a politician You've got to be able to answer the question Who puts you in authority over me and how can I Remove you from office and the problem with the EU is there's

no way they can answer that question They're not democratically is there not way you can reform the relationship with you while being in the EU You know, it's interesting because I think I was thinking of a football analogy as you're talking there and right now My team having a bit of struggle right

and My friends in the group chat saying do you think that we should get rid of the manager?

And I'm saying when you think about making a decision like that, you also have to factor in What you do after I who replaces the manager so many fans will just say sack the manager But then the question becomes but then what and it was quite clear in your book that although you wanted to leave the EU

You had no idea What the plan would be thereafter and in fact What we need to do is take back control and so that's like fire the manager.

I'm saying but then well it wasn't I was just wanting to win an argument with the public about their democracy and whether they should control it or not and I thought that ultimately we had to do that and I think that if you look at so going back to The points that we were talking about earlier to growth

rates in America and and Europe you couldn't say that the EU model has been economically successful Not at all, it's got chronically bad growth rates Very low innovation by comparison with the United States Something is not working.

So whatever that whatever they're doing in Brussels to provide this this great body of regulation It's not actually delivering results for the people of of Europe when and if you When compared to America, we'll say from 2008 on to 15 take the 15 years 2008 2022 whatever to change three but does that mean that the EU

is doing something wrong or that the Americans are doing something right because when I think of America, I think of insane innovation But I think of a little bit about a lot.

I've been a lot of both so We the Americans by the way, we never dream of trading away national sovereignty ever anything They just don't they never they never they never in any way NATO is a bit of a Pact where they've the Americans have complete hegemony in NATO I mean, you know that's it but they

joined forces to make the some greater than the parts Yeah, but you know, there's no the the EU provides a Body of new and a continuously evolving body of new law Which British the British Parliament can't change and so to get back to so why I mean, I'm not pretty Tony It wasn't any it wasn't a difficult

decision It was a difficult session for the you know for the reasons that you that we've gone into but I wanted the country our country to be legislatively Free again and at the heart of the book You know you talk about the pandemic being the most difficult thing It was very very difficult But and it

was very difficult to persuade the British public to very different find ways of stopping the spread of the disease But one thing we did better than any other European country was vaccinate And one reason we were able to vaccinate so fast is because we had regulatory freedom of exactly the kind I mean,

it's a great flute but eternity Exactly the kind we'll talk about that that I that I had advocated We'll talk about that and so and so that me was absolutely crucial and then there are talking about that I just want to be I need to make sure I'm clear because if I'm not clear moving forward, then my

audience I'm gonna be clear and This idea of like freedom if we take the big analogy of like her of a parachute If I cut the cords, I'm free But I'm also in danger unless I have a paraglider waiting to catch me and my point here is I Understand the head all the like the big emotional words that freedom

and take back control, etc It sounds compelling to me.

But as I said with the football analogy, what's the plan thereafter?

And I think I actually don't want it Do about the parachute right and cutting the chords of the of the parachute Actually was the other way around it was because we'd come out of the EU that we were able to equip ourselves with a parachute faster than anybody else and We were able to to get out of the burning

plane Faster and to get to ground safely faster Because we'd taken back control of our of our regulatory freedom and that meant that by March 2021 we vaccinated 45 % of the adult population and of the older people I think we done almost 180 over the over 80 was done almost 100 % and that was incredible

If you remember we had we had to talk about the vaccines In those early days, but the two things in those early days You had thousands or a thousand people dying every day and so it was Incredibly important just on the we were able to give elderly and vulnerable people in the UK a protection On this point

of brexit though In your book you say you almost sort of disconnect yourself from the fact that you there had to be a plan associated with the decision Because you seem almost angry that people would expect you to have the plan even though you led the campaign.

Yeah, so I Mean I'm trying to make the connection between you know brexit and the real world and why brexit delivers value What was there a plan to leaving?

So so but on the in 2016?

I'm I think what you're really saying is what was our plan for the?

The referendum outcome so meet everybody who campaigned to leave were we expecting to win Where we expected to form next government?

Let me quote your book.

This is good from promotion for your books We like this never at any point in that campaign Did we borrow some Michael gave discuss a future leave -based government because we did not imagine that there would be Would have we would have to be in charge of government The government stated policy was to

implement the referendum result.

It was a result It was a referendum not an election we had no plans for government no plans for negotiations because it was not our job and In so far as the next few days were chaotic which they were it is utterly infuriating that we should be blamed It was up to the government to announce the plan to

withdraw. It was up to the government to begin negotiations So this is I mean, this is this is a huge issue because in the context of business Because because I think it's fundamental misconception when you when you when a government decides to put something to the people in a referendum the government

is not saying Oh what we know if it goes against our you know The any particular position will disappear, but the government said so they wanted to remain in France for instance Francois Mitterrand had Referendum on I come which I think it was the Maastricht Treaty Or was one of the treaties that he

he lost the vote And he didn't resign.

He didn't disappear plenty of European Leaders have had referendums on eat on on the EU and And they've gone against them, but they haven't vanished from the scene.

And so You know it let me put this the other way around imagine Imagine that go, but I or the whole of the leave team had been specifically campaigning To in the leave vote to form the next government and to install ourselves as The rulers of the country people would have said this is not about If you're

plainly you're talking your all your arguments are designed to advance your political careers You're not you're not talking about the issue of leave or remain you're talking about a plan to take over the government I get it but as a member of the public I think if you're leading the charge for an outcome

you must have looked a couple of steps further to think about the implications and the reality of This outcome like you must have had Would have a white paper That said that brought they they were going to bring forward the options for the country and the plan to negotiate in the plant and a plan To

would to do what they said they were going to do, but the government was your friend David Cameron So this is a really bad idea So one would one would take from that that the plan is not a good one That they've looked at all the available options post leaving and there's no good options here So if the people

in charge were saying we should not leave there is no good plan Shouldn't we have listened to them?

Well, no because I think they were wrong As a member of public is I see two like two people stood at a cliff edge and you got one guy called David one guy called Boris and David has said listen I'm taking you to the cliff edge because it's your right to make this decision But do not jump and this other

guy called Boris is going jump I would assume that Boris knows something about how we survive once we start falling But to find out that Boris had no plan and thought David was gonna pull out the parachute for me is like well David Cameron the problem was that I then we then had to we then had found

ourselves because David Prime Minister Cameron then disappeared from the scene Immediately as I described in the book We then we then had a chaotic period where we had to work out what the hell we were going to do because it was clear that We were going to somebody was going to have to take over and and lead

us through it Did David Cameron react badly when you told him when he thought that you might be voting to leave?

Because you talk about in the book.

Yes, I did But I mean, but yeah, I described it in the in the book what did he say?

He said he said He said I Well, I said look I have I was really struggling with this because I didn't see how consistently because he'd offered me He said if you come out and support Remain you can have a top five job in the cabinet I couldn't work out what a top five job was and then he and then he

said And I He said well look I was finally very double because I've written lots and lots of articles they're pointing out the democratic problems of the of the EU and you know, finally we had a chance to Resolve this I was thinking of coming out for leave and I you know didn't know how to put it to

him That was a the truth and he he said this isn't about articles is about the future of the country I said why I agreed with about the future country, but I was still thinking come up believe and he said well If you if you if you come out believe he said I apologize for using the saying he said I will I

will fuck you up forever and Which I thought was quite a big big you know sort of promise to make he said he was gonna fuck you up forever forever and so I immediately went back home after I went back home after that evening and And cycle back from the my office in in in city Hall and talk to my family

my kids and one of my kids Said immediately well, you know, he bought no choice and you'll have to come out believe so I mean I put that in to I put all that in really just to show you that There were very good arguments for Happy a quiet life, you know, it's interesting in that is when I read that part

in your book There was two things that I thought the first was him offering you a top five job if you followed his opinion Is that not?

bribery and Is that how the jobs are dished out in the government at the moment?

if you if you do what I say, I'll give you a top like if you do I'll make you health secretary or defense secretary seems like a But it seems like from as a someone who's not in government It seems like a really corrupt way to dish out jobs Like if you if you go in with me this wasn't clear It wasn't

clear. You've got to be fair to Dave wasn't clear what job he was offering But top one is what defense actually health secretary Well, you know PM's were top five jobs.

So there's what brief for remaining It's probably you thought in the book you talk about mid potentially defense secretary.

I don't know but yes But yeah, I mean look, but it's not a bit corrupt Is that not like the definition of corruption?

because if I was to my I think it's a huge mistake to do that kind of thing because There are always far more people That you know you end up you know thinking That you should be making a promise to you than there are jobs you can possibly give see the best thing They're saying nothing.

I've always wondered this about government and I've never understood it is How does someone become the head of a department when they have no prior experience in it?

Like you made Matt Hancock health secretary How did how did Margaret Thatcher become Prime Minister or secretary education when she had no previous previous experience?

Tony Blair become Prime Minister when no the Prime Minister thing understand But how did Tony how did Tony Blair become, you know the shadow minister when he had no You tell me do you think this is a good system?

Well, because this is a really really important point because I think that there is a I Do worry that it's quite hard to persuade You know really good administrative types to go into the politics and You know you you see it the whole time.

It's called diary of a CEO, right and You see it the whole time you see loads and loads of I Go I think of plenty of examples of top business people who tried to get it try to become Politicians, and it just doesn't seem to work and I don't know.

I mean, can I can I have a guess?

your well if I look at the data I go if 35 % of them come from one school eaten and then there's jobs being dished out based on if you take my opinion I'll give you a top five job I go I understand why I could never get in even if I was the best candidate because it's not being done based on who's the Best

candidate. It's being done based on like the old boys club, but I'll do you a favor.

I'll if you Not under the labor party, you know or the other party and not not not under the I mean most conservative cabinets So just under the Tory party.

No, I think under it and under any party.

I think I think that business people do For reasons I find hard to put my finger on they don't necessarily flourish and in that environment and who flourishes what I what I worry about is that the only people who are really going to start doing it are people who are willing to go through a lot of You

know public I think I say sociopaths well, I mean you well the fact so look one of the interesting things that has happened recently is that social media has become very very virulent and I'm I don't read it myself, but I Think it it becomes very oppressive for politicians and also for journalists,

and I think journalists You know they get a lot of shellacking and a lot of abuse if they're not thought to be Taking one line or all the other or you know going easy on someone I mean somebody who's going to interview me for this this book All right, yeah, and you look at and she's a very very good

journalist, but you look at the stuff that she gets online About you know You know her being an Inquisitor of mine, or whatever.

It's poorly. It's really appalling and I think so I think that And I think that it's also the same for MPs.

I think that they get very Um They think they think that if it's a choice between having a life where I can you know avoid this sort of stuff and You know having a Wonderful existence doing something else or putting myself through this on the point of that I said I think thinking about it's related

to the fact that people have got their hands on the scales They're pulling their friends up.

It's a bit of a boys club.

Is there any truth in that I think but I think I'm sad to Say Steve I think there's probably been the way politics had been since the dawn of time I think that politicians.

I think politics has tended to be factional Since the dawn of time I think it's tended to be just sad, but I think true The good thing is that in the end the people who are really successful are the people who Get things done that the people weren't done Do you think it's a magnet and so and so and so so it's

a it's a It's a magnet for very determined characters who are willing to put themselves through a lot So she'll pass things.

Well, I mean Have I used those words?

No, no, but that's the kind of person you're making me sound like you're quoting me no no The kind of person that I think would be compelled and Succeed in such an environment.

I think I think you have to have a pretty thick skin, okay, but the but because of the Because of the way it works the people who actually Succeed are the people who really can Try something forward and and deliver it closing off on brexit 62 % of British people view brexit as more of a failure according

to you gov and 9 % consider it more of a success According to you gov as well 46 % of British people say they should there should be a second eu referendum in in 10 years compared to just 36 % That say it shouldn't be According to okay.

Let me just finish the stats that go on respond According to the UK's real gross added value the GVA a measure of the size of the economy They say there was approximately 140 billion less in 2023 in the UK economy compared to if the UK had stayed in a single EU market According to the same thing.

They say that 300 billion has been wiped off the value of the UK's economy by 2035 and my last stat here is a report from the Center of European reform in 2020 estimates the UK GDP was five point five percent smaller by mid 2023 Compared to a scenario where the UK had remained in the EU this equates

to an economic Loss of about 40 billion annually and just as a business owner myself I was looking at some stats around what business owners think about 33 % of small businesses reported that breaks It has made it harder for them to trade with the EU due to increased paperwork and things like this and the London School

of Economics said that breaks added 6 % to food prices between 2020 and 2023 With all of this in mind, do you regret Brexit?

Not at all? Not at all.

I mean honestly So we've outgrown Germany France 2016 onwards sorry certainly outgrown Italy since 2016 onwards a last time I look at Germany and Italy were both members of the EU and When you know the statistics that you give I mean they are dwarfed for instance by COVID You know even if I even if you

accept that Which I don't necessarily That Brexit has caused Problems.

It's also caused massive opportunities because we because we were able to come out of the Lockdown earlier than any other country Remember we came out of lockdown in July 2021 we ended we ended all restrictions and That meant That we had the fastest economic rebound of any g7 country and that would not have happened

In my view without the assistance of Brexit freedoms, which you know that OECD Do you know that body is yes?

They say the UK is the only major rich economy that remains smaller poorer than prior to the pandemic and Brexit May be a factor in that and the government's independent watchdog Which I know you know the office for budget responsibility thinks the UK will ultimately be 4 % worse off It would have been

had it not voted for Brexit When I'm in business everything is a trade -off everything is a trade -off So you must be able to identify The trade -off that the UK has made for all of the upsides that you claim Brexit is delivered So I think it's intellectually honest of anyone to be able to identify both

sides of the argument here So what is the trade -off?

What has Brexit caused just give I know what's it cause what's it cost us?

Yeah, I think that there is certainly true that the way that Some of it is being managed by some of our by our European friends is unnecessary bureaucratic at the moment I think that will get better I accept that criticism.

I don't think it's the end of the the end of the world, but I do think ultimately the advantage of being Free to do your own thing free to run your own country Tell me a trade -off Is an average citizen what's the what's the downside?

Yeah Well, I think you know you may I mean it's only true that some some businesses are finding it harder to there there is paperwork that I don't think there needs to be and We need to fix that but I think that the tech we have technological solutions to that I Don't think that we need to be part of a European empire

of law Could get an ever denser and more detailed empire of law Controlling our freedom and stopping us.

Is there an economic trade -off?

I Don't think I think that ultimately we will be richer as a result, but in the near term we're gonna be poorer Well, I you know again people were very emotional about this and it carries remind you where before the referendum People said that and no one ever holds these people to occur People said

that there would be millions more unemployed, right?

Do you remember that people said it would have to be an emergency tax -raising budget if the people voted to leave the EU?

actually when I ceased to be Prime Minister unemployment was at a 50 -year low and We had 620 ,000 more people in paid employment than before I Just saying that people people make all sorts of prognostications about Brexit the stats that I read you do you believe them that there's an economic struggle

in the short people in it?

People said that we would be we would have a million people on the don't you Fine, but do you believe that there's a in the near months?

Then I was saying because then I say it's it's confirmation bias, right?

People know that you said we will be richer Eventually, so I'm saying Sure, so in the near term Do you think there's a little bit of struggle to get through economically as a result of brexit?

I think that I think that will that's certainly the case if we make the mistake of Staying I mean which is what kids start the Labour Party's, you know what to do is staying in A Lie alignment with the the EU they basically want to be us to be rules takers.

Okay. I got a huge huge mistake We should go for freedom.

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It's banging The next big thing was the pandemic this was once you'd become the prime minister of the United Kingdom And You have this pandemic begin to roll in I was looking at your the way you described that situation in late 2019 early 2020 in your book and it appears that You had no idea of the severity

of this Virus that was rolling into the shorts.

When was the first time you heard that there was a virus that had come in from China Whatever the date was.

I think it was either end of 2019 beginning of 2020 I can't remember exactly when but there's a day when When I'm walking through the lobby of the House of Commons with the health sector and he says, you know, there's I'm worried about this This Chinese virus was that Hancock the right person to be

handling that because that is a generation or once in a lifetime health issue and In high view I look I think he I think he did a very good job.

Yes. I think he was he was very energetic Was he the best person to be handling it?

I Think it I think he I think he did a very good job.

And I think that was he the best person to be handling it Look in hindsight Well, I certainly think that he well, yes because I think yes I think that he had the right mixture of energy and and realism Don't forget we didn't know about the The disease we didn't know how lethal it was.

We didn't know how contagious it was and We didn't know how exactly how it was transmitted There was a lot of stuff we didn't know some quotes from your book here and you said the problem wasn't that I was ignorant to zoon zoonotic diseases the problem was that I felt I knew all about them and After

more than 30 years of writing about or dealing with new zoon not it Felt I knew my SARS and my Ebola so to speak and I concluded two things first that these novel zoonotic plagues Tend to sort themselves out and second that the greater risk of destruction from him from these from attempts to stop them

by politicians Was there it sort of attempts to contain the diseases that their prevention would probably be worse than the cause in some respects So When the Hancock started talking about a new coronavirus possibly from bats and the risk that it would sweep the country It was hardly surprising that I

felt I'd had this all before Little did we know yes, I think that's I guess I'm being very honest there about about as I am throughout unleashed about the My state of mind because you know, I'd I'd covered in great detail the Salmon and eggs panic when millions of chickens were slaughtered needlessly.

I'd covered the Boba and spongeful men self of off the panic mad car disease when vast proportion of the UK dairy cattle herd was slaughtered probably needlessly The livelihoods of farmers were destroyed I'd been mayor of London when we we were threatened with the with a bird flu She didn't it was a big

deal and we'd late we played on stocks of Tamiflu which turned out not to be to be necessary so like seen SARS come and go Ebola and so on and so much of these cases what what seemed to have happened was that there'd been a rational anxiety about the risk of a zoonotic disease Often from Asia where or ever

We would get in a real we do our best to get ready and then it Mysteriously would leave us almost completely Unaffected I remember the swine flu.

Is that what you thought was gonna happen in this case?

And I didn't know Yes, I didn't know I was trying to do was to give you context the context and the state of mind that I think a lot of people were in when They they heard about About cave it.

When did you call China?

February had its February 2020.

There was a call you made to the leader of China to Xi Jinping.

Yeah Yeah, I mean, I would have called him.

I mean, it'll be in the it'll be in the it'll be in the book And you were sending supplies.

Yeah that stage. We were we were still sending Supplies to help them.

We were sending what did he say about the virus?

Well, I said I look I remember the conversation is hazy now, but I I think I you know Graduated him on what seemed to be his efforts to control the disease But said I was on I was anxious about the what was happening in these wet markets because at that stage We were given to understand that These the disease

would had occurred Spontaneously in a in a market in Wuhan.

What did he say and I come to what he said to that I don't think I see Look, I mean he's a he was a president of China He I don't think he wanted to particularly the implication that China was in any way at Fault and I can't take understand that but I know Think that probably wasn't right.

I know I think there was certainly was a a lab accident or It was a result of something that went wrong in that lab Can I ask about this because this started as a conspiracy theory that is now widely accepted as picked the probable likely outcome Why were they messing around with a virus in a lab in Wuhan?

Well, you may well ask I mean, I think it I think they were it Why do you think they were someone that is so far away from why people do these such such a thing?

I genuinely don't know but I think that they were They were explained a science the point of science is to keep pushing back the frontiers of human knowledge Everywhere and to see what you see what they could do and it was a weapon.

I Didn't I didn't have any reason to think so every reason to think so.

I think it was a terrible accident I think the thing Escaped from the lab.

I think they you know that they they were looking at engineering these viruses, you know function gain of the of the the virus and ways that they could manipulate it and Sadly something went wrong That's that's my best guess and a lot of people now seem to think that you called Trump around this time

as well to speak to me about it I Did what did he think?

Well, I yeah, I mean he took the Firm view that you know Try to had a case to answer but say that a lot of people And in the book you talk about the World Health Organization's response being seemingly hesitant because they are wanted to keep Beijing in favor Yes, I think a lot of scientists were anxious

about Cheezing off the Chinese and I think a lot of scientists, you know because China is very heavily involved in the support and sponsorship for a lot of Academic research and and so on so there was a sort of hesitant I felt I mean I might be wrong about this my impression was there was a sort of Gingerliness

about seeming to finger the Chinese too much on lockdowns It's interesting that I was reading in your book that around the 8th of March you start to see what's going on in Italy And I think we could all vividly remember those scenes from those Italian hospitals where there was Patients in the corridor was being

pushed around on trolley trolleys and there was not enough beds And I think for me as well That was one of the big moments where I realized watching it actually play out on Twitter that this was an incredibly serious Situation something that I'd never seen in my lifetime before Was that the the penny

-drop moment for you that this wasn't just another bird flu or I was very anxious about it because I knew the Italian health care system, I thought it was broadly excellent and I remember when you know one of our one of our kids had a fell into a swimming pool in in Italy once or you know when everyone

was having a lie in you know most shattering thing that you know can ever happen to you and The Italian frontos of course so came and they were unbelievably good.

They were so fast they were they they were so I thought you know if the Italians are having problems with this thing and You know frankly our population is about as elderly as theirs Then this could be very very serious So I think that I think I think that did really register with me And so if you look

at the in upset I defer completely to the inquiry into into all this under Dame Heather Hallett But if you look at what happened from then on in you see a series through through March up till the 23rd of March you see a series of intensifying steps to Try to get people to Take precautions when I when I

observed I saw that in the book and you kind of have the stages that you break down That you went through from that moment onwards what I observed though, and I think this is probably a fair Estimation or a fair description of what happened was there was indecision because it seemed like there was facts

coming from one ear facts coming from the other ear and There was almost a bit of paralysis and when you look at the rest of the European numbers, which I was looking through Yesterday about when different sort of European markets made that decision the UK Appears to make the decision to lock down much

slower than all the other European nations Slower to close the schools at the shops an event seemed to be later than our European counterparts And Matt Hancock went on to say that if they were ahead of us in the in the in the epic of anyway So so so they were so you mentioned the Italian since its situation yeah,

and they were already ahead of us and You know, we could see that we were going to have to bring in measures but You know again, this would be for the inquiry to it's a comment upon but it's it's it's pretty clear to me that we couldn't reasonably Have instituted these measures in the UK which would novel

and draconian In advance of the scientific advice or opinion And that's what it would have been then being ahead of us isn't relevant because the chart I have here Shows how many days it took us to take decisive action After the third death and it shows that for all of the European nations and when I

was reading about the information you were getting From scientists on this end and from other people in politics It was so contradictory that I Think I was guessing that that's what caused the indecision and also your own sort of philosophy towards shutting down We had this group called the scientific

advisory group on emergencies, right?

Yes, age and they they were so we were going to be led by the science and We basically had to I decided that we had to follow what sage advised and For a long time to your point they Hesitated about schools because of all the disbenefits and if you remember the argument was That if you went too early

Then there was a risk that you'd have to keep doing it because you know the public would lose patience with a lockdown and There was the there was a second argument Which was there would then be bounced back if you if you went too early and you kept on for to You'd then take the measures off and the virus

would flare up again, and it which indeed did happen Throughout the course of the pandemic.

So there were the scientific advice was I Mean it wasn't I wouldn't say it was particularly confused at that stage I think it was they were struggling to assess Exactly what to do and there were different views within the scientists about certain things like Matt Hancock said that we could have saved

30 ,000 lives Masks and so on is that true?

If we if we'd locked down earlier, I Can't say that for sure.

I To have locked down earlier would have been to have Gone beyond to have anticipated Scientific advice, it would not have been Something and I'm you know, I'm not a epidemiologist.

I'm not a scientist.

I was being asked to You know the what was on the agenda was imprisoning the whole UK population It wasn't something the scientists were yet Recommending in the book you seem to question whether those lockdowns really even worked So I'm not saying that what I'm saying.

So to me by work, I think that they certainly did Have a role in Stopping spread of the disease and They helped probably to turn down the Curve of the of the disease probably I've been almost certainly what I find very difficult to gauge now and You know again, this is fair for Heather Hallett is to

what extent? Was it the lockdowns?

What did it and to what extent was this gonna happen?

Naturally a result of the the natural parabola and you suspect it was gonna happen anyway I'm not what I'm saying is that to some extent it to some extent or to a large extent it was perhaps gonna happen anyway, perhaps and given That it was perhaps it was to a larger sin perhaps gonna happen anyway,

the question is Did the benefits of lockdown?

outweigh the Very very severe damage done to kids life chances at school.

We should talk about earlier What do you think the answer to that question is I think that we did the right thing you think we did there I think we did the right thing, but I'm conscious that there are lots of people who Who disagree and what I hope is that the covid inquiry will will say that yes We

did do the right thing you but when you talk about those those measures You refer to them as bonkers There's this sort of different areas.

Yeah, I think that's a bit less latest by the way That's when we got to the tearing system the tearing system you talk to it as bonkers and you see my prize that people what would follow this stuff and That they wanted to follow this stuff Which is strange hearing it from the guy that put the rules

in place You think it's the tearing system was bonkers and you're surprised about the hindsight, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah the time the time It seemed so we had a situation so coming out of the first The first Lockdown so in in the summer of of 2020 and going into the into the autumn and things start to Get more difficult again.

They have a situation where some parts of the country in I know places like Leicester or West Midlands or wherever Northwest You have the tears you've got a problem.

Which is that some Areas haven't really seen it You know the code would really go down anything like as much as it went down sick West Country Cool.

Yeah, was that bad idea?

And I say and so you had people saying You know, why the hell should pass be closed in Cornwall.

Yeah, when there's no code and Just because there's this transmission in in in Baltimore or wherever.

So was that bad idea in hindsight?

Well, no, it was a good idea in principle because because because after all It was it was crazy it seemed but the problem the problem was that It was very very difficult to draw the boundaries and as soon as you as soon as you said You know, well this bit of Leicester's in tier which whatever or But it

was very invidious and it seemed you and on a human level when you're leading the country during a pandemic and You've got you're getting these numbers every day that people are dying and the people are sick and then you know I know you got sick yourself What is there a mental toll on you throughout

that period? Well, I think it was So Jesus will discover it unleashed.

I like it when I can go forward and when I have things the positive projects are do so it was very very difficult when I was constantly having to Shut the country down constantly try to stop the transmission of the disease by these very very crude methods but once in By end of 2020 We had the prospect

of a vaccination Then my move totally changed, but because then I had something like my question was about you as a human being when you're dealing with tragic news and this escalating Pandemic what's the human toll if I'd been a fly on the wall in your hardest moments from that pandemic what would I

have seen? Well, I think that I think it was certainly pretty tough.

I had a bad bout of code What was the hardest day outside of the ill getting the illness yourself?

What was the hardest day for you throughout that period?

I Think that Boy I think it was there was a lot of tough times, but I think having to having to go probably the I mean to go back into lockdown in in in the end of 2020 It was pretty pretty awful because I was on the clock.

You know, we'd really really hope that tearing would work and You know, some people still think it could have worked but It just what you know, we couldn't I couldn't take the risk The quote from your book that I pulled out which really shocked me was the real question I suppose is why another public

so avidly crave these rules and why they were so willing to have their doings circumscribed in such a rabbinical detail in their Complexity, they were also like a kind of religion detailed rituals You just obeyed Leviticus Leviticus like in the hope of salvation because slot science was slow to help

us on the 13th of September 2021 your mother Charlotte Passes away while at the same time you're dealing with all of this fall out and the recovery from the pandemic That's a tough moment, yeah, but that's the same for any person and any In any walk of life, you know, that's always a very very tough

moment. I think that To your point about the people why do people obey the rules so much and and my my feelings about that I think no I'm asking about your mother here.

Yeah, sorry your mother passed away in September 2021 and You don't touch on it so heavily in the book the circumstances of that But that must be a particularly tough moment for a person that's dealing with all of these other Social issues and political issues at the same time Yes, I know but I mean I

think I suppose the point I make there is that is our common human lot isn't it and Yes, it was Tough and for me and my my brothers and sisters my family Very very very tough, you know, we miss her to this day all of us but you know a lot of people were suffering a lot throughout that pandemic and a lot

of people lost loved ones and You know I had to be I had to be very very mindful of what was happening every day in households across the country and I had to try to I had a desperately difficult because one of the interesting things about being Prime Minister is is the way it works now is how much

of it is just funneled upwards and You know, there's you have to take those decisions.

There's nobody else who can do it for you But you remember where you were when you found out that Charlotte was Had passed away I think I was driving driving into London.

I'd been I'd been out on a visit and it was it unexpected Well, I mean, you know She'd had she'd been ill for a long time with with Parkinson's and She had various complications associated with Parkinson's And she'd had a bad scare about a year previously so now I couldn't say it was you know Medically

I Could not say it was medically.

Totally unexpected.

No, did you have a chance to grieve her passing?

I Certainly did grieve her passing But If you mean did I sort of Process it morning.

I Do the best of my ability.

Yes, you could are you a natural that sort of thing that sort of emotional I guess connection with yourself I I Think we go back to some of the earlier things we were we were saying I mean, I did grieve and you know, I do miss her like all my promises.

I do I do miss her today, but you know I also had a huge amount to to think about and to get done and We just have to really we had to do it many members of the UK population were also mourning and grieving at the same time And I think that's why the the party gate scenario which we talked about in the book

was so Enraging for many people because as someone who again is not very close to politics like myself.

It's optics here You know And I think that's really the issue when you've got people who are unable to see their loved ones because of the situation with funerals and the pandemic Even the suggestion that there was a rave going on in number 10 is the most Enraging thing that I think anyone could say

there wasn't a rave going on I mean you'll find it all that you'll find it unleashed and there what and I feel desperate about it I really do that I understand and I understand, you know completely why people got so enraged I really do understand that and I did my I did my best to try and you know I

think I mishandled the whole thing that the Revelations as such as they were but also reality but you know because at the end of the book you do seem to highlight that you could have done things to well what I could have done was what I could have done I think so I I Wonder why commissioned Sue Gray?

To conduct an investigation into it.

I mean I was informed that she was You know politically impartial and a model of sort of you know obsessed with with probity And neither of those things now seem to me to be True, I've got a picture here There was 17 parties that were alleged during the the sort of party gate time frame and one of the pictures

that leaked to the public was this picture of you enjoying some cheese and some wine I believe at 10 Downing Street now as I get a member of the public I look at this I look at some of these key dates I know you'll find for one particular date, which was your birthday I think were you raising the glass

of wine with some colleagues?

No, I wasn't you see again you see People say this kind of thing and it was an AIDS leaving drink that you were fined for no I wasn't fine for that.

What were you fined for?

I was fined for my Going into stand at my desk in the cabinet room Between meetings with the glass of wine not with a glass of wine and several Members Of staff were also there, but they were people I saw throughout the working day anyway But this patient and just just because people think that I had

a yeah Yeah, and that we we didn't have I didn't have a cake.

I ate I didn't even see a cake To say it was a party is A complete travesty.

It was about the most lugubrious event in the It was it consisted of people who were part of my normal working life that that picture that you're pointing to there Was this the Metropolitan Police did look at that they decided there was no offense committed because what you've got is people sitting

outside As as people tried to do during those times because there was much less risk of infection Let me just read some of this stuff.

So 15th of May 2020 cheese and wine At Downing Street approximately three hundred and forty nine people had died from covert that day in the UK mr Johnson was photographed sitting with his wife Carrie and some staff at a table With wine and cheese and the number -ten garden at this time covered restrictions

so that people could not Reasonable excuse let me just read this and then we were I was at that's my that is my home I know I know that that's the garden.

I was supposed to be I'm assuming may 20th There was a bring your own booze party on the same day that 308 people died from the from the pandemic And you attended for about 30 minutes.

You say it was 25 minutes and then the 19th of June was your birthday Okay, can I just go back over there?

I mean, you know it none of this washes with the public because they all think that we were You know having dancing around and getting wrong 12th of April Johnson announces that he's been fined 50 pounds by the police.

Do you know what it is though it like it's all about it's all it's all about leading by example, isn't it and you know this yeah, I think my opinion is that whatever is going on at number 10 needs to be the extreme demonstration of the perfect example the Extreme demonstration because you're of course

you're gonna be attacked.

You know that yeah You'll be a say that I say that I'm saying so So what we should have done and I say is we should I should have said to everybody Look people are gonna say, you know matter because it was in fact as I tried to explain impossible to maintain perfect social distancing in the The office

environment that we were in People were working around the clock and I I think that I should have said something to the staff like people are gonna be out to get us for God's sake, you know Did not only obey the rules but be seen to obey the rules now We had you know all the signs and the corridors

and and and stuff like that.

I think that there were a lot of people by that stage who were Perhaps not altogether friendly to me who wanted it.

You know what? That's that's fun That's fine, but honestly, I can't help but believe because I try and remain pre impartial on these things So I try and apply common sense as like a business person But would you really think I was deliberately partying and breaking the rules for me?

Do you really think for me?

seeing that photo when one of my friends can go to their grandmother's funeral and Seeing that those people drinking and have appearing to have a whale of a time just in this photo But also the other photos where you're cheesing with wine I go you should never have allowed that to happen.

Do you know and I think you agree with me You're great with me because you said the end of the book you said I should have said to my whole team Don't even let them Appear to be breaking them in in in in the course of Almost two years People working around the clock in number ten in conditions of great proximity

to each other There were going to be moments when of course when colleagues are saying are going away When you raise a glass unless you're gonna ban that I think you should have well that's a point Because I just think you banned alcohol in 1940, I think I think Prime Minister during a pandemic I think

you just have to be the most extreme example We got a ban on alcohol in this country no, I think I think I think genuinely Yeah, if we if we if we banned alcohol in number 10 in 1940.

Mm -hmm I think all gatherings should have been banned at number 10 because I think so, but we were gathered we that means banning meetings So do you mean gatherings?

Gatherings with alcohol and music and cake I think it should have been bad.

I've tried to explain Yeah, there was no cake or I saw no cake I said I was at no event where there was there was music or dancing that total nonsense now, maybe Those things took place, but they certainly didn't place take place when I was there I think one of the problem one of the mistakes I made

was beginning the whole thing By issuing this general apology.

I said what happened was so that the people think that there was Do you still apologize?

There was you still apologize I don't apologize for allegations of vomiting or fist fights But they turned out not to be nice form and well I insofar as people broke the rules on my watch and so I was I'm responsible.

Of course I Apologize for that.

But what I was what I'm what I'm saying in unleashed is that The Problem with Leading with a blanket apology Was that it then meant that absolutely any allegation that was my you you know, you've said you you've just said made a couple yourself You know any allegation that was then made about and in sugre's

initial report that she had to to change it.

She said there were There was a you know, violent altercation and and vomiting and somebody but they both of those things turned out not to be true You said you made the mistake in the in your book You see you made the mistake of issuing pathetic and groveling apologies over the scandal Which made it

look as though we were far more culpable than we were which is the just the point I've just made So because I think because because it may it looked as though but by issuing a Sort of universal apology it meant that any subsequent Allegation People assume well that must be what happened and you can you

to be fair Can't get the feeling that's what you think and no no no For me it's largely my fault because I seem to be In a lovely validate apology is is not I see you I seem to be validating everything that people Said about what was going on and what was actually going on was that people were working

unbelievably hard Round the clock to get a lot of very difficult things done I didn't and for me and and actually what the the things that they were successful in Are very creditable and I and so I feel badly about them on page 705 of your book you say in retrospect I should have done more to protect myself

and the rest of Whitehall against party get pipe allegations I should have said to the entire staff perhaps in the latter about the vital importance I'm not only obeying the rules, but also to be seen to be obeying them and reminding And I think that that's actually my point which is Apologies, I think

are good things. I think people should apologize But if you didn't I'm trying to explain if you apologize in advance but the problem was that a lot of things were said about staff in number 10 that weren't true weren't fair to them and My blanket apology looked as though I was validating and accepting

all those criticisms Okay, which which I think was none in retrospect.

I think I should have waited to see exactly what?

People you know Said and I what was established to be true and then I should have apologized for what what actually happened I understand and also I want to move up again for those officials.

Yeah who were working around the clock to Sort out the government's through and the country's response to kovit When it came to it did an absolutely outstanding job, but I don't know.

I don't understand Be very patient with me, you know, you've allowed me to talk for almost two and a half hours and What I thought was gonna be an hour's show so I'm you've been heroic in putting up with we're wrapping up But I just wanted to ask a few more things.

These are personal questions that I have.

So, um one of the things that no one knows about you is how many kids you have why is this such a Widely debated subject.

I've never sat with a guest on my show where I don't know why they were only debated It's a matter of matter of power.

I've ate children. It's my dates children matter of public record.

Okay I don't know why people why is everyone's obsessed with it with a kid you have search me go Charlotte Owen you're not related to her you know, she's not a former lover.

Yeah. Okay. I asked my friends some of the things They were no she says she's a but it's in the book.

She read a breed of all that in the book She's a she is very capable And what happens next for Boris Johnson, are you going back into politics?

I live a life of blameless rustic obscurity you want to get into politics I think that You should only do things if you genuinely think you can be useful at the moment I think the most I'm loving I'd do a lot of painting.

I have a great time living in You know in the countryside I Got my hands folding all sorts things and next question brick fire.

Yeah Trump or Kamala and you can't sit on the fence British Prime is is including ex -prime ministers.

Yeah are constitutionally obliged to be friendly with whoever for international relations, whoever whoever the The American people decide that is that is the right thing in that you're are Dwindling audience would not expect Who's Who's better for stopping the wars?

No, I mean, you know if you read unleashed I did read it Okay, I saw your interview on GB News and you seem to think that Trump would be a better well I think what I'm saying is that you should beware of some of the kind of anti Trump Prejudice about his having a foreign policy and they're a very good

read, you know, they're very either when he was president he took some tough decisions and and you know projected and a Sense of American strength and purpose and that's you know, but I make no further comment than that And we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next

guest not knowing who they're gonna Leave it for her, right?

Okay, and the question that's been left for you is Success often comes at a price and one of those is the relationships we lose along the way Which relationship or person did you lose in the pursuit of your success?

You Seem to one of the Longer you live the more your eyes that you know, you can have what seems to be a complete terrible sundering and then learn the whole things cheer up and then you're you're your friends again and So, I Answer my could answer your question is I don't I don't I don't regard any

of the termination any any rupture I don't regard any rupture as no one's ever swept this question.

So you're gonna be the first I don't regard any ruptures violent which relationship or person did you lose in the pursuit of your success?

They are not lost I did Give me a person.

Give me a name. We've never had it.

This is a long -standing tradition.

I was ever swerve this question.

I Had a clearly I had a rupture with Michael go but then in 2016, but then with heroic optimism I I I put him back in the in the cabinet and Boris thank you.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you I'm gonna link this book below so anyone I want to read unleashed him can get the book will be linked below It was your your your writing style is exceptionally engaging I think everyone that's interviewed you from the ITV to GB news has said the same thing The book is linked below if you're

interested in the subject matters, we've talked about but many more.

It's an exceptionally long book some 700 and I don't know I got it right.

It's 771 pages With the with the index and the and the and the things an incredibly detailed Book into all of the key issues that have happened over the last Five six seven years and some touches of what happened in your life before Link down below Boris Johnson unleashed.

Thank you so much. Thank you very much.

Steve. It's been a honor I think I do I get a prize for I think that must be that was a that will how long was that interview supposed To be because I don't know they're always two three.

Usually they're four at sometimes they're four hours Isn't this cool every single conversation I have here on the die of a CEO at the very end of it You'll know I asked the guest to leave a question in the diary of a CEO And what we've done is we've turned every single question written in the diary

of a CEO into these Conversation cards that you can play at home So you've got every guest we've ever had their question and on the back of it if you scan that QR code You get to watch the person who answered that question we're finally revealing all of the questions and The people that answer the question the brand new

version 2 updated conversation cards are out right now at the Conversation cards calm they've sold out twice instantaneously So if you are interested in getting hold of some limited edition conversation cards, I really really recommend acting quickly You

[Boris Johnson: Leading through Crisis, Brexit, and the Pursuit of National Potential]-[(EXCLUSIVE) Boris Johnson: "They Were Looking at Engineering The Virus" And The Government Tried To Bribe Me!]

📋 Summary

The Formative Years and the Persona of Resilience

Brexit: Sovereignty, Nuance, and the 'Cake' Philosophy

Navigating the Pandemic: Science, Lockdown, and 'Bonkers' Rules

The 'Partygate' Controversy and Political Accountability

Leveling Up and the Future of British Potential

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript