Hi, Esther.
I'm 34 years old and I unknowingly dated a sex worker.
I'm hoping you can help me answer questions and unpack some lingering thoughts about that relationship.
I fell head over heels for this woman.
I met a handful of times in social settings over the course of about a year.
After our first date, we spent almost every day together for months and I was crazy about her.
I knew she did modeling and It didn't bother me.
I knew that was a part of her life.
But after an argument one day, she opened up to me and told me that she did something with OnlyFans.
I asked her if she was currently making content or if that was in the past.
She said it was prior to us dating.
I wasn't thrilled, but I was trying to stay regulated and ask questions, perhaps more like an investigator than a curious partner.
She described doing things, taking pictures and doing some other custom content that she couldn't remember.
And then I became more upset that I felt like she was misrepresenting the facts to appease my emotions and manage my reaction.
In hindsight, I think I was just naive and didn't trust my gut.
We eventually broke up and had no contact for several months.
And during that time of no contact, I let my prior inklings about her sex work get the better of me.
And after a deep dive down the internet rabbit hole, I found what I was looking for.
Part of me felt kind of excited to see her posing nude and engaging in sex acts with another man.
Maybe it was validating my own sexual competence or there's a voyeuristic quality about it.
But it was also painful knowing that she was actively profiting from that or engaging in that while we were together.
It felt like a big betrayal.
And it felt like our relationship was built on this big lie.
Later we ended up reconnecting in a platonic way, but I chose not to tell her that I found out about the sex work.
The only fans.
I don't know if I was trying to avoid being mean and calling her out like a gotcha.
I don't know if I was trying to protect her.
Or if I was trying to protect myself from the discomfort or not speaking up for myself.
But then our attempted friendship ruptured even more intensely than our relationship had.
And we have not spoken in about six months at all.
I'm hoping that you could... kind of give me some insight.
I know I've experienced grief and loss in the past before and perhaps that's part of it as well.
I know I've been guarding myself from falling in love again, and that's something I'd still like to have in my future.
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Giving up is unforgivable.
So whether we're reading more serious books about democracy in our book clubs or talking about it at family gatherings, I think Thanksgiving is going to be lit for a bunch of families this year.
That's something that we can all do.
I'm Preet Bharara, and this week former US attorney and author Joyce Vance joins me to discuss her manual for protecting our democracy and the rule of law from President Trump's overreach.
The episode is out now.
Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
I watch you listening and while you're narrating your story, I watch your face narrate every piece of the story with different expressions.
From smiles, to sadness, to tears, to disbelief.
A range, it was just like, I wondered what would it be like if I only looked at your facial expressions and didn't listen to the story.
But I would have a sense of the arc of where you started and where you ended.
So you listen to it too.
Tell me.
It's interesting you say that because I felt that too.
Especially in the beginning, it was felt very nostalgic and these kind of happy memories.
And then, as we come to the turn in the story, I noticed that kind of the sadness, the feeling of maybe betrayal or yeah just, i could definitely feel my mood shift throughout, like hearing me tell the story for sure yes, yes.
So where do you want to start?
I think I carry a lot of grief and sadness around that and anger.
There's times where I feel angry at her, at myself, and I don't know if that's like feeling helpless or where that's coming from, but I notice there can be an intense feeling of anger that comes up around this story when I recall.
And it grabs you where and it says what?
It sometimes grabs me by the throat or by the chest and It sounds like how could you let this happen to yourself?
And then the negative self-talk comes in of feeling stupid and feeling naive.
And how did I let this happen to me?
That's what it sounds like internally.
You're stupid just to go into the granular of the self-talk.
You're stupid.
For what?
For you should not have let what happened um, and there are so many micro stories within the story as well right um yes, so you, you can fill in the blanks, because i don't.
I?
It helps me definitely to know, otherwise it's generic.
So there is anger in.
I feel like not honoring my own internal, trusting my gut and not acting on it in certain occasions.
Like?
For example...
I had been seeing this person for a while and I very suddenly got sick and I wasn't sure what was wrong with me.
And she is a medical professional.
So she was helping take care of me and find different over-the-counter medications for me to take and, just you know, making tea, making food I could put down being very sweet and doting in that way.
And I continued to get sicker sores in my mouth and couldn't swallow and fever and fatigue and all this stuff.
And so I had other symptoms sexually too.
And so I decided to go get tested.
And I tested positive for HSV-1, so oral herpes.
And When I had told her about, because I know for some people it's not a big deal because it's common, but I had never had that before.
And it was such a huge primary outbreak.
And so when I had told her, her response was, you don't know you got it from me.
And then continuing to elaborate and then hearing her say, start tearing up and saying, I'm so, you know, I didn't, I didn't know what to do.
I didn't, I, you know, I felt bad and I didn't know what to do.
And in hindsight, it just felt like you know, you saw this happen to me and this is your line of work and you watched me get sick and you didn't tell me what was happening and you took care of me while you saw me getting sick when you very likely knew what was happening, and that just felt really shitty, and then i stayed through it too.
Um, it was a betrayal.
Yeah um, that's just one of the, And the idea was it came from her, but she didn't tell you.
Yeah, not prior, not during.
It wasn't until after sharing the test results, yeah.
So it's not just that she took care of you, it's that she also knew what it was.
I believe so.
Yeah.
I think that's very likely.
Yeah.
And so the question that you have is because once you pound on yourself and you just say I'm so stupid, there's nowhere to go.
Right.
But you have a question like.
When you say, I felt something and yet I proceeded.
I accepted something that I wanted so badly that I didn't see the cracks.
Or I noticed small cracks developing and decided that oh, they may not turn into bigger cracks, or oh, we can just put some tape and glue on it and it'll be okay, or we can ignore them.
When you think of the glue, you think of which crack?
Because you are bound with situations in your head and you keep going through them one by one.
You come back and you kind of are ruminating, going through the Rolodex of compromises.
Yeah, especially that story I just told being one of the big, big early ones.
Yeah.
It's also one that leaves a legacy from her that is now a part of you.
Yeah.
And that makes her harder to forget.
Yeah, it's part of the story. for better or for worse.
So give me a sense of how the delusion works.
The crack isn't really that deep.
We can fix it, we can tape it, we can cover it up.
Yeah, okay, I can, yeah, okay.
Let's see.
When we had met a couple times before that, she was very attractive.
I found her very attractive.
But then weird, and you say that as a way of saying, when i'm very, very attracted, my brain doesn't think.
That's probably the same.
I think most men might agree with that too.
But yes um, or people in general.
But I remember having a conversation with her once and just, she was incredibly intelligent and knowledgeable.
And for me, that was also very attractive.
There's someone who's got, you know, brains.
I was like, oh, OK, like I like this.
Like that's makes it better.
And when we started dating, it was just she had all these great qualities.
She was charismatic and intelligent and funny.
And we spent all this time together and we had some shared hobbies that we would, you know, get to engage in together.
And that made it a lot of fun.
And we?
It turned out, we didn't know this before, prior until our first day that we were actually neighbors, which is funny.
So it made it really easy to spend lots of time together frequently and for quite a period of time.
And, you know, I think it was a lot of those things that made it enjoyable.
And there was a time where she was my best friend.
And now your face and your heart are feeling that.
So you feel like you lost your girlfriend and your best friend.
Yeah.
Or a best friend.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So tell me about the cracks that you don't want to see or that other needs supersede.
Because you may have seen them, but there was other things that you wanted to see more.
Yeah, I'm clipping through that mental Rolodex of cracks.
See which one next.
And I have definitely played a part in it.
It takes two to tango for sure.
So I'm aware of that.
And there are times where I wasn't healthy and I stuck around and I was, you know, unkind and unhealthy as well.
But another one that comes to mind just before you jump what are you saying when you say that that's code language?
You're right, it is.
Let's see.
And I think this kind of speaks to the anger, too, and the regulation piece for me.
And this is, you know...
I remember when we broke up and I had texted her the next day and she said okay, we can spend some time together, but I don't want to talk about it.
And so...
We kept spending time together and being not obligated to each other anymore.
And I found out that she had moved on very quickly and was already sleeping with other people.
And that felt incredibly hurtful to me.
We had broken up, but it was still the.
I'm still telling you that, even though we're broken up, she's still telling me I love you and I care about you, and saying all those things and then acting differently.
So to me, the words and the actions weren't aligned.
So when I found out, I...
There was no sense of tact or timing at all.
I confronted her in public and basically told her that It was, you know, don't call me, don't text me, lose my number and that you know that was a big rupture and doing that in a public space was very unkind and just it was just wrong and just felt just reaction, just.
I just felt really bad about how I approached that.
And so about a week later, I went to offer an apology and we had talked about it.
And that's when our kind of long drawn out situation started.
So you came to do a novella?
Yeah.
A scene?
Is that it?
It has been quite the telenovela, for sure.
The scene, yeah.
It was kind of like the gotcha.
Did you think about what you were going to do, or did you just storm?
Uh...
Very little thought went into that process.
Right, right.
But I wanted to have the last word.
I wanted to embarrass her publicly.
I wanted the world to know that I had been hurt, that she was so quickly putting herself in bed with another man.
Yeah.
When I thought that what we had was slightly more important than that, that I was so easily replaceable that I was certainly not indispensable.
Yeah.
And that I was far from unique.
Yeah.
And it was that feeling.
And then it was also the, how can you say that...
You still love me and care about me in one breath and then do this in the next breath.
We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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So, shall we go back to the cracks?
Yeah.
Because the cracks is not your negative self-talk of how do you let this happen.
Your cracks is your deeper needs that allowed you to lose sight and your history, like the last sentence when you say I'm no stranger to grief and loss.
And when we act in this kind of ways, Like you say, what she said and how she acted was not aligned.
You say, I was misaligned.
Something happened to me in this relationship.
And maybe it's not the first time, but then we need to understand misalignments, plural.
Yes.
And maybe this one stood out differently from all the others.
So I'm going to listen for a moment because you're a thoughtful guy.
You've spent a lot of time thinking about this and you can connect a lot of dots.
Yeah.
And speaking to the grief piece too, I lost my brother about seven years ago to an accidental fentanyl overdose.
And that has been a huge rupture in my life.
And, you know, he was my only brother.
He's my best friend.
We were incredibly close friends, close in age also, and that loss has made it really just hard internally, just for me, in navigating life and it's made it hard to navigate relationships and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
I'm so sorry to hear that.
What a loss.
It's just been devastating.
It's torn me apart and our family apart.
And he was central to you when he was alive and he's central to you when he's no longer there.
Yeah.
And were there cracks with him as well?
Yeah.
Is that what made you go from her to him in your mind just now?
Possibly.
I think it was when you mentioned that I was no stranger to grief.
Yeah, that's the big one.
Right.
But it is because of the loss and the grief that you overlook the cracks.
Perhaps, yeah.
And then you blame yourself because you feel like you overlooked the cracks with him.
Mm-hmm.
I struggled with that for a long time where, you know, why didn't I do more?
How did I, you know, was it my fault or why couldn't I have done things differently?
So there is a long time where I struggled with self-blame in that.
Could you?
No.
No.
Okay.
We're clear on that.
Not really.
Maybe a couple of things here and there, but see, there you go.
But we're clear on that.
That wasn't your doing.
Or you still doubt?
Wow.
I haven't thought about that question in a really long time.
Logically, I know the answer is no, there's nothing else I could have done.
But when you said that, there's this slight felt sense of maybe.
This may be...
I could have done more.
And the sense of guilt.
Sometimes I think it can be interpreted in various ways.
One way is I feel guilty.
I feel responsible.
I take the blame.
I could have done more.
I could have prevented.
But there's another way.
Sometimes I think that we hold on to that little part that says I could have done more, because on some level, feeling guilty may at times be better than feeling helpless.
Yeah.
Do you understand?
Yeah.
It's a strange thought, maybe.
Yeah.
I couldn't do anything.
Sometimes it's worse than I could have done something more.
Does that resonate for you?
Yeah, I remember starting therapy very soon after he passed, and that conversation is now ringing a bell.
So make the connection between the cracks with him and the cracks with her.
Or the grief.
Let's see.
Okay, this I think would be useful for you to know.
One of the cracks.
Early on, we would you know, go get drinks or go out for dinner or have a night in and maybe have a glass of wine.
And I noticed that it was, with her, it was never just a glass of wine with dinner.
It was refill after refill from the time she got home until the time it was time for bed.
And there were some similarities in terms of addiction.
And I think part of that was a huge overlap.
And part of that was, I remember noticing that and just like okay, maybe we're just not aligned here.
And no, it will or anything.
But then I think I tried to make it my job to like help her see or notice, or I'm worried, I'm concerned, and it turned into that type of dynamic in part.
And the question that you have, the one that circles back at you, is what?
The first thing that comes to mind, just in line with what we've been talking about, is could I have done anything different?
And logically, the answer is no.
But it's not a feeling.
Could I have done anything different to...
Could I have shown up differently?
Could I have asked better questions?
Could I have been more compassionate?
Could I have helped her more?
Could I have resolved conflict better and not gotten so hot-headed at times?
And I would get particularly hot-headed when?
I think usually it involved jealousy or not feeling like I was enough or, with all the effort I put forth, feeling just not recognized or valued and that is a feeling that was exclusive to her.
Or you have known that in other relationships, romantic relationships, you may not have it in your friendships.
Nah, Not to this degree ever no.
No, this was unique.
Yes, but you chose a woman who makes content where she exhibits herself to other men.
So you're going to get a different dose of it.
Yeah.
I suppose that doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Talk to me about jealousy.
I'm not sure where to start or how to start.
Jealousy usually involves a triangle in this context.
Somebody else gets more.
Do I matter?
Will I be left?
Am I enough?
We envy things that we haven't had, and we are jealous about things we fear losing.
That's one of the dozens of ways to distinguish between them.
Jealousy is I don't trust.
Therefore, I put surveillance in place to help me trust.
But surveillance is about control and not about trust, because trust is about dealing with that which you don't know and which is filled with uncertainty.
That's why the word trust exists.
Yeah.
The more I put surveillance, the less I trust, the more I need to put more surveillance.
More the person that's with me often says, I need some air.
And their need for air makes me feel like I choke.
You've answered me with your head.
Yep.
So then let me push harder and then it just perpetuates the cycle.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now shall we talk about jealousy in your own words?
I think jealousy in part is it's seeing the effort and care you put forth not being reciprocated.
I think that's one way to think of it.
And then there's that jealousy that comes in of like why isn't that coming back to me?
You know, you mean example.
Um, I think one example is just like, just like not feeling enough.
I mean, that's not specific.
But just like one.
I guess an example of that would be like why wasn't it enough when I would comfort her when she was feeling distraught and depressed and like nothing mattered?
Why wasn't it enough that I helped support her through processing her divorce?
Or why wasn't it enough when I held space for her while she broke plates on the ground?
Why wasn't it enough that Like, why wasn't I enough?
I gave, I held, I cleaned, I supported, and still it wasn't enough.
And at that moment you think, why am I not enough?
Or do you also ask yourself, what would make it enough for her?
And what does enough mean?
And enough for what?
Enough to stay?
Enough not to leave?
Enough to what?
Enough to to be loved.
Do you ever think that?
With your brother too, not with the love piece?
No um, it's more of the change, and maybe i think that was part of it as well.
How come it isn't enough for them to change?
And I know you can't love someone out of addiction, logically but that's not what we're dealing with here.
Why wasn't enough to help them or, you know?
Why wasn't I enough? to help her see that life is worth living?
Why wasn't I enough to help her stop doing content on OnlyFans?
That part, she didn't know that I knew about that.
Never?
I don't think she ever did.
That would have been even better, that she could have stopped without even knowing that you knew, just because you were so important.
That it would make her want to change.
Why wasn't I important enough on the drinking, yes?
Why wasn't I important enough for her not to want other lovers?
Yeah.
Wasn't I good enough?
Did they do it better?
Yeah.
What else?
I think those are pretty good right there.
And it's funny because I've had connections since where I feel like the roles have been kind of reversed and If I'm imagining it as I experienced it on kind of the flip side, sometimes it's just I remember I wasn't in a place to want the same things they wanted romantically, or there's times where They were just personal preferences that weren't aligned or, you know, it wasn't through any fault of the other person themselves.
And you use that to remind yourself.
Not out loud like that just now, but I have kind of gone there to give some more compassion or understanding for another's experience.
No, I was thinking actually in reverse, that you have actually brought that understanding of the fact that it wasn't about them and made that become a source of greater compassion for you.
Wow.
Oh, my goodness.
I've never, I don't know if I've considered it like that before.
Wow.
You know, just seeing the level of effort and engagement and kindness and generosity.
I know I wasn't always reciprocating that to the same degree, but feeling that from someone else it was, it was kind of hard to well, I enjoyed it, but it was also made it hard knowing that I didn't, the feelings weren't mutual, reciprocal to the same degree, and so just kind of realizing, oh wait, that was me, and despite their best efforts or attempts or how they tried to care for me or love me, that I wasn't ready or willing or to give it back in the same way, and then applying that to myself.
Applying it to yourself is one thing and remembering this the next time you break up with someone.
That doesn't mean people always believe it when we say it's not about you.
But sometimes it's exactly that.
It's not about you.
We just don't click or it's not happening for me.
But it's not because you're not enough.
It's because I'm looking for something else.
But what you are is just fine.
And it will be exactly what someone else is hoping for.
I think now it's just finding the mutuality there, being patient.
We'll be back with a session right after this.
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Each week on fashion neurosis, i invite guests from the world of fashion art sport, music and literature to lie on my couch and explore the connection between fashion and identity.
This week on the show, i welcome the actor, tessa thompson.
Sometimes, while I'm tidying, I'll just put on one of the heels that I've left behind.
And the idea of sort of like clomping around my house, sort of tidying in a heel, I love.
Find Fashion Neurosis on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
If it seems like AI is touching just about every part of your life these days, you aren't imagining things.
It's all up in your streaming services, it's all up in your job search, and now it's even in your doctor's office.
It can perform exceptionally well, kind of almost in a superhuman way, on these specific, very challenging, complex clinical cases.
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Is the piece about OnlyFans important in the story?
Yeah.
Especially since you didn't tell it to her, but you went digging deep.
Yeah, and I discovered that, and she never knew that I discovered that.
I never told her that I did.
What made you go look?
Just prior inklings, like, was I right?
But she had told you?
No, she never told me that it would... continued.
She had told me it was years prior in a different location, you know, years prior.
And then I had remembered just that feeling of not trusting that.
I remember during the conversation, you know, it was kind of I wasn't happy.
I was kind of withdrawn and kind of like quiet and asking about it.
And I remember her saying that it was not something that was currently happening and she had didn't remember exactly some of the things she had done.
And that was the part that made me more frustrated was that, you know, I just want you to be straight with me.
I think you'd remember and that whole thing.
And then it just turned sour.
But months later, while we weren't speaking anymore, I had kind of just like okay, like I remembered that feeling maybe I was right, you know and not trusting that.
And so I had kind of done some investigating and, um, found what I was looking for.
And I think that part was hurtful to be like, oh no, I was, I should have trusted my gut.
I was, you know, right to not.
And then what?
And then what?
I know.
And then what?
So you would have known that it still continues and What did you find?
You know, I should have known, doesn't necessarily tell you what you would have done with the knowledge.
Exactly.
And then when we attempted to reconnect platonically, I still had that information and never disclosed it, which I don't know if that's just as bad not sharing that to give someone else the information to make an informed decision, whether they would want to continue a friendship or not.
Did I withhold it to protect her or did I withhold it to protect me?
What do you think?
Part of it is oh.
At first I wanted to kind of like gotcha, but it's like no, that's a dick move.
I don't want to really do that, even though it would feel good and make me feel shitty later.
Maybe it was just not wanting to rupture that connection again, but then it's still built on a cracked foundation of not being honest.
I don't know.
And what bugged you is the fact that it went on longer, or the fact that it existed?
I think it's the fact that it existed or just the dishonesty around it.
That was the biggest crack for me, because then I didn't have the information to make an informed decision about how to move forward.
What does it represent for you?
So if she had told you it still continues, what is it that you would have to make a decision about?
Whether to stay or go?
Probably yeah, but that's question you asked yourself all along.
That information didn't change that, Because part of why you stayed is because of the friendship, the humor and all of that.
But part of why you stayed had to do with the deep attraction you had to her too.
Yeah.
If I understood that.
She is the only woman in the room to me.
Okay.
All right, so let's talk about this the attraction and the sex and the sex basically, because that's a piece of here.
Yeah, it's the sex of the with the other man.
It's the sex or it's the allure of other people looking at her.
It's the excitement you felt when you went to look.
It's the jealousy you felt.
It's a combination of things that are part and parcel of this whole.
If you had been slightly less attracted to her, you would have been gone.
That might be fair to say.
Good one truth out, because part of why you don't stay with some of the other women often has to do with not attracted enough sometimes Yeah.
Sometimes, not often.
Okay.
But it's an important piece.
It's always there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
It's okay.
I'm fishing.
Yeah.
See what you catch, because we can go in many different directions, but I sense that it's easier to go in the direction of the grief and the loss and the breakup than to actually, because that's more familiar to you.
If I take you into the, the kind of the labyrinth of the erotic mind and how all of that mixes in with sex and desire and attraction and jealousy and masculinity and all of that, then it's a little more complicated.
I'm also tracking how for many of us, what is emotionally challenging can also be sexually exciting.
What pains us emotionally can turn us on sexually.
I think there are times where I'm very confident and, you know, flirtatious and can approach women in that way.
And I think there's times where that ebbs and flows of feeling like confident and attractive and things like that.
But I think you're also right in the sense of like I don't know if there's a fear or a you know worry about cultivating a loving nurturing, long-term relationship where you know it's more than just like the attraction piece.
It's like the character and the values and the, you know, doing life with someone.
Have you had...
You've had it.
Yes, we were together when my brother passed.
And there are times that I still kind of feel guilt or give myself a hard time about not doing better.
But...
We had.
You know, we're planning a future together, talking about getting married, buying a house, like all that you know the white picket fence and all that.
And there were already some, a couple of cracks there that were hard for us.
But I think with my brother passing, I just I spiraled and it just was so hard on both of us and you know especially me, but then being together with my brother Pats, I made it really, really hard.
And so sometimes I worry about having something like that again, and I don't know if it's the fear of messing it up or if it.
You know, I don't know.
What did you just see or think about or remember?
Your eyes just went somewhere.
I remember drinking heavily to cope afterwards.
I remember her comforting me while I was crying, lying in the shower, wanting to no longer be alive.
And it wasn't that I wanted to die, it's just that it hurts so damn bad.
Of course.
I know I can finally hear certain songs without crying.
Years later, almost for like four years later um, she saw you in the shower and what happened?
Um, she just held my hand.
But you're saying i was too bereft and in too much pain to pay attention to the relationship.
I think that was a part of it for sure, yeah.
And I think that came into this most recent conversation we've been having.
I remember on the second date with this, that person shifting gears.
Now i remember a song came on that reminded me of my brother and i chose not to change the track and i just had this lone tear kind of run down my cheek and i remember she put her hand on mine And I was just like sold.
You know, just like you know, just someone being there and just being present and like having that compassion.
Like, I care.
You know, that was huge for me.
I actually I was thinking when you talked we're less connecting dots and we're more walking on a beach of pebbles.
And we're picking up little pebbles, each of them telling a little piece of the story.
And then we're putting them back, and then sometimes we put them next to another pebble, and so the stories connect.
And sometimes not, because we won't have a chance to lift more pebbles than that.
But this piece about, she held my hand in the shower.
She put her hand on me when a tear streamed down my face when I listened to a song that reminded me of my brother.
These gestures of tenderness run very, very deep.
They run really to the place of, I am enough.
Someone sees me.
Someone can hold my sadness, my fear, my vulnerability, my pain.
They just hold it.
They do nothing.
They don't embarrass me.
They don't shame me.
They just put a hand on me and I continue crying.
I think it's the feeling of just feeling seen and just being really vulnerable and not being okay.
And someone not being scared of it or running from it and just being like, I'm here.
I'm here through it.
I got you.
Yeah.
That is hugely important for you and lives on the other side of the jealousy.
You don't scare me.
You don't make me run away.
I see you.
I'm here for you.
I got you is the opposite of what we feel when we are jealous or when we feel bereft.
I had a thought, because we're going to need to end.
Would you like to dedicate this session to your brother?
Yeah, that would be great.
Go ahead.
Oh, man.
If I could say anything to you right now, it's just I miss you.
I miss feeling your hugs and your handshake and hearing your laugh.
There's so many stories I wish I could tell you.
I'm sure you'd laugh at many and knock me upside the head for a few.
But I don't think I'd be where I am now had you not left.
It's been quite a journey of self-discovery and grief and mourning and trying to reevaluate my own life and where I want it to go and how I want it to look and how I want to feel it.
You've given me that gift in the most messed up way possible.
But yeah, you really helped me become, you've really helped me become rather happy here.
But thanks for that, ma'am.
Love you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
This was an Esther calling a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.
If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call.
Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you.
Send your question to producer at EstherPerel.com.
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julianne Ha.
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
