Hi, Esther.
I find myself in a really difficult moment.
I have just separated from my life partner of about six years.
And we had frozen some embryos together about four years ago.
And long story short, I'm 40.
The time has come. to sort of begin to talk about actually getting pregnant and having the baby.
I've made very clear over the years that I'd like to get pregnant in my 40th year.
Kept pushing it, kept pushing it.
And he was not able to speak about it head on, literally not a direct conversation about it.
And over five months of couples therapy.
It was circular talk and semantics and I'm wrong about everything type thing when it was just really clear to me, or it became really clear to me, that having a baby at 40 with the love of my life and my life partner shouldn't feel like a war.
So since separating, things have sort of escalated and gotten quite activated between us and I now see that, which I think other people saw before me that actually having a baby with this person in any way, in any sort of co-parenting creative way, is actually not possible.
And that these embryos are not going to be able to be used.
It's just not right.
It's not a good situation.
And I'm terrified.
My question is, how do I not forgive him?
Because there's no accountability, there's no idea the magnitude of what's been lost and what's going on.
But how do I forgive myself?
How do I forgive myself for allowing my time, which is one of the most valuable things I have, my timeline, my fertility, my femininity to be so undervalued that I am in this situation where I feel like I've already sacrificed so much for motherhood and it's such an unknown?
I have no idea how I'm going to have a family now.
And I live in a little bit of terror that perhaps by loving the wrong person and being so wrong about something that felt so right, that I've really jeopardized my potential for a family.
How do I hold all that while also keeping the faith, which is what I need so much of right now.
So anyway, I wonder if you can help with any of that.
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How would you like to start?
Because I also understand that things have evolved rapidly from the first time you reached out to where you are today.
So you can plug me in where you started with us, or you can plug me in as to where you are today and walk your way backwards a little bit.
Yeah, I'll give you sort of a brief overview.
I originally called in October after a very intense couples therapy session with my partner of six years where I proposed that maybe we would separate and I would have a baby on my own and he would have some involvement.
That we discussed.
We froze some embryos together four years ago.
And it was sort of unspoken, but very spoken that I could wait till I'm 40.
And then we sort of have to begin to talk.
And I did the embryos when I was 36.
And we had a lot of healthy embryos.
I was very grateful.
So that's October.
We've not had a direct conversation since that couples therapy session.
That weekend, a couple of days later, I asked him to leave the house because he wasn't able to directly address the issue of literally saying like a declarative sentence, about whether we could use these embryos, whether separation, anything.
He had an inability to discuss it.
And we had been in a high conflict couple therapy for four to five months.
And in those couples therapy sessions a lot of rage started to come out on both sides.
I'll say, but nonstop.
Nonstop.
And the rage...
The resentment, the conflict was focused on what?
Just so I have some sense.
It's really hard to say.
I would say it was focused on me and it would happen within couples therapy sessions.
I think it was, I want to be with this person.
I don't want to have a family with this person right now.
If I don't have a family with this person right now, I might lose this person.
I think something along those lines.
Said who?
Said him.
I think we'd have to ask him.
I think the idea is I have no idea where the rage comes from.
But since October, I've realized that I don't think we can use those embryos.
I don't think that having a baby with this person is the right decision.
With the help of a therapist and some time away, I think it's probably not the healthiest situation.
We are very dysregulated when we are together now, and we cannot seem to move forward.
So within the last three months, I've sort of decided I've moved out.
It's been two weeks.
And I'm 40 and I went to the fertility clinic on Friday and I'm, I'm terrified.
I'm living in so much fear and I'm a pretty faithful, hopeful person.
And I have lost all of my hope.
I have lost all of my vision.
I've lost a lot, I feel.
What happened at the clinic?
I've already done this once.
You know, I put my body through a lot.
And the reserve is low.
The reserve is low.
The time is now.
There's no money.
There's no stability within and without for me to be making these decisions, but ultimately i feel i've been making sort of these decisions for my future family rather than necessarily only my present self, and it's been extremely hard to navigate My sense of regret.
My sense of loss of time.
And ultimately like a huge loss of respect from my partner for not acknowledging my timeline and sort of my value.
And...
I haven't even been able to focus on the loss of the relationship, which has been horrific and blown up, because I'm dealing with the magnitude of something that I feel is much greater, like motherhood and fertility.
And it's really difficult and I'm doing it alone.
Can I ask you just a couple of more factual questions?
Do you only have frozen embryos or do you also have frozen eggs?
I only have frozen embryos.
It's a huge, huge regret.
And I'm not someone who lives in regret.
So that feeling is very, very confusing.
And they're telling you that your fertility, at this point, is in total decline.
And they are encouraging you to freeze something, but you don't have the means to do so, nor the headspace at this moment either.
And he does not want children, children now, children with you.
Or is it okay being a donor, a known donor?
I think we are not able to have those conversations in a healthy way that keeps us both safe.
I can only answer with speculation, but I think he's definitely not ready now.
And I think he's left it open-ended, which is excruciating.
How did the ending occur?
It's a reactive ending.
You're just in the middle of a fight and one of you said fuck you, I'm out of here, or get out of here.
Or was this, we are really at a crossroads and are we able to grieve?
Are we able to acknowledge loss, let down, or are we just barking?
That's a great question.
I think we're barking.
But basically, I was being ignored.
I was being direct and communicative and everything, and courageous and brave and coming up with a lot of solutions.
And I was being literally not reacted to.
And it's sort of like, oh, maybe we'll do it next year.
Or it's sort of a little bit of a control thing to not say yes and not say no.
Initially I, I compromised.
I said, will you sign off?
I'll do it in a year, we'll wait a year and then in my 41st year, we'll figure it out.
You can, we can figure it out.
I've made so many and nothing comes back.
But I think it is the, the rage the, the incompatibility, the deep deep, deep sort of a betrayal that i feel, that i don't, i don't think it's healthy to use these embryos that we have, which i didn't think i was so connected to using them for so long.
I i, we can make it work this bad, but But that very thinking we can make it work is what kept you for six years.
And what else?
What was the quality of the relationship that made you believe this is going to resolve itself?
It's not a matter of if, but a matter of when.
And if I tell you I believed so much, I held the vision of our life.
We bought a house.
We froze embryos.
We had a high quality of life, a deep connection.
And I didn't think that he wouldn't come through.
And again, he's not being clear.
He probably will come through, but it's that I'm being forced to make these decisions.
I think he was in control of the relationship the whole time.
And ultimately, I was going along with everything.
I'm going to ask you to tell me more and then I'm going to ask you, what can we focus on today?
And what feels most urgent and important?
I think my question is really one of faith.
Really.
And I see that so much in your work.
You keep such a sense of magic.
Turn the corner.
You never know.
And I really, really hold that and integrate that into my life fully.
And I have no hope at a time when I need it most.
And I have no hope that I will have a family.
I will have a child, I will have a partner, I will have him.
We will reunite.
Which part?
No.
Everything?
That I will have a family.
That I will have a family that feels right for me.
And that feels comfortable, I think, ultimately.
I don't know a lot, but I felt that having a baby at 40 with the love of my life shouldn't feel like going to war.
And I began to sort of change and begin to protect myself and my idea of what a home and love should be.
And ultimately, that there's a way, that there's a way forward for what I want and that it's okay to have made the decisions I made at the time.
And I think my question to you is, how do I grieve this?
How do I work through what is so deep and so masked by so much anger?
I'm getting emails about rent and separation and things like this and I'm thinking to myself this doesn't even come close to the magnitude of the things that I am focusing on.
We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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Give me a bit of a sense of your whereabouts.
You moved out, he moved out.
You have, tell me.
We owned a home together.
And I think that moving into the home that we bought together was sort of the beginning of the end.
That was about two years ago.
It was a family home.
And he wouldn't move in.
It was sitting there for a year and a half.
Just looking at it. and 10 minutes from where we lived.
It just never felt like a home.
Something about taking that next step and really talking about and creating sort of our life and family vision together.
We went through the steps, we made huge life decisions together and there was just something missing.
Just something missing and I don't know support like camaraderie some, some sort of some unspoken thing that maybe I've never really even had in a relationship, but something where we're in this together.
Yeah, I'm not defending myself, I'm not convincing.
I started to think why don't I deserve to have these things?
Why am I made to feel that I don't deserve to have these things Right?
Why do I have to discuss and defend and speak about?
I've done so much.
I sacrificed my body and my time.
Right?
And I'm a supportive partner and patient and acquiesced and compromising.
But I think ultimately if my partner's problems have to do with time, that's not a me issue.
That's a science.
That's a God issue.
And then where is the intersection?
How do I know that I'm in some ways taking the first step towards motherhood?
Making these sacrifices for something that I know will be nourishing and full of love.
Rather than you know, I got a puppy in June and I got a glimpse into what it might be like to have to refocus our life on taking care of something else.
And it was very, very lonely and very, very hard to see like a daily sort of Teflon rejection of, like pure, unconditional love.
And that is when I started to see the yelling, the fighting, the effects on the environment, the effects on myself.
I became a totally different person.
I've lost, as you can hear in this conversation, my internal compass. of which it's so strong.
And ultimately I know that I'm making good decisions and I have the support.
And I had the witness of a couples therapist, who was very helpful to be able to see what I couldn't let anyone else see.
What has actually happened?
You just parted one day and that's it?
I asked him to leave the house and we've seen each other twice since and only communicate via email.
And talk about furniture, or talk about what being mean being mean talking about furniture, talking about money logistics.
I moved out.
I did it of my own accord, on my own, creating sort of a new life in which I can have the means to create my own family.
Right, it's about dependence and that I was dependent with someone for the first time, Financially.
Financially, emotionally.
There's two parts and they're not one and the same.
So when you say I'm trying to create an infrastructure that allows me to pay for the expenses of infertility treatments and fertility treatments, and banks and storage etc.
I don't want to just bring it to a psychological conversation.
There's a material component to it.
There's a financial component.
There's a number of different considerations, and they're not just internal experiences.
I know that sometimes it's not common that people ask questions about finances, but in this instance it's an important piece.
Thank you for saying that.
I think that that is where the terror stems for me.
Right.
Me personally, the emotional navigation, I can, we can, we can figure that out.
I can put left foot in front of right.
But the the the, the finances, the means, the things feel a little bit out of my control within such a short time frame, is really pulling me back to a less adult, to a less strong place.
So many unknowns.
But the unknowns, you feel that they bring you back to something that is more vulnerable because of it being unknown.
Or this is part and parcel of how does one start this whole process again?
Now, not within the context of an established relationship on the heels of a betrayal.
I mean, again, I want to make sure that we don't just psychologize for the sake of Psychologizing.
Yes.
Yes.
Like getting on the train and going to the fertility clinic.
The same one that I went to four years ago.
That's a psychological, right?
Then you go into the room, you get information, not psychological.
Correct.
Right?
And I'm... I have to straddle these two things.
Yes.
I can feel it.
I can feel it.
I do think it touches a little bit more deeply for me.
The, the, the means I didn't grow up with very much money.
I've never been in this financial position in my life.
Um, And it was important for me to solidify financial means in order to have a family.
And I think that was a big part of my relationship and staying with it.
And it was open and on the table.
And I feel that a loss of money comes with a loss of control.
I'm gaining control of other things.
Myself, my family, in a sense.
But how?
You had a storyboard.
I meet man.
We fall in love.
We develop a relationship.
We conceive together.
We have a child together.
We become a family.
And it's a very... powerful and linear storyboard.
It's one way to get there, but it comes with the things that you experience similarly and the things that are very different.
It comes with different biologies, different time clocks, different priorities, different urgencies and it comes with Similarities around vision and choices for the relationship and desires and interests and so forth.
But it has built in a ton of things which you need to constantly rationalize.
And then you created a story which was very compelling.
At 40, we will do this.
Sign me a contract, you know, that at 40, you know, there is that round number, that decade.
And until then, I will basically follow your rhythm, your track.
And that's why I get a sense as to I know nothing about him.
I don't know. what story he tells himself or others, how he experiences what just happened.
You know if you are both competing about who betrayed, who most.
You feel abandoned.
He feels pressured.
I love the above.
Everything you said, you promised, he says I never said, or i said whack when.
But it was different.
And i can't say it now because look at you, look how you fight with me.
How can i continue with this?
Don't you see?
It's impossible.
You wouldn't want to have a kid in under these circumstances.
Look at us.
We're not a couple who can handle it.
You know exactly exactly all of it.
May i ask you something?
Do you believe it's going to sound of a strange question the way I just started it?
Do you?
Of course, I've already answered my own question, but it's like do you believe that his embryos are already imbued with his story?
Not with his genetic material, but with his story.
No.
I mean, there's no way for me to know that.
There's no way.
But you're talking about faith.
So I'm asking you, it's a question of belief.
Does it have your story in it?
I waited.
I deferred.
I believed in him.
I am so upset at myself.
How could I believe in him?
How did I surrender my power, my will, my autonomy, my timeline, my biology?
I'm so upset with him, but I'm even more upset with myself now.
I don't know, you know, do I?
You know, if I go further, it's like maybe I just don't deserve it because I behaved in the way that I did.
Now I can punish myself and I'll retaliate on myself.
I mean...
Exactly.
Are you in my head?
I'm shocked to hear you sort of spam that as you did.
Even just hearing that is somehow comforting.
So if I was a friend of yours going through this, because you know you're not alone in this predicament it's quantities of women in your situation.
And if I was your friend who came and wept on your shoulder and told you how I am berating myself and how could I be so stupid?
And what was I thinking?
And now what?
And here I am and on and on.
What would you say to me, if there is something to say, after you've hugged me and after you've shared solidarity what yeah, you did.
You don't deserve forget having kids.
You lost your chance or hopefully, you would say many other things.
But what would you say to me?
Let's switch.
Um, i think i would say what i'm hearing from my friends, which is you're doing your best, i'm proud of you, And I mean to be honest Esther, I really don't know.
I really don't know, because part of me would be really scared and afraid for that friend.
I think in some ways.
You're not trying to say everything will be great.
You're not selling snake oil.
Yeah, it's an informed...
Mature pondering about options, about costs, about alternatives, about cheaper places than the one where you live to do such things.
The most important thing you would do as a friend is you would help with the complete sense of overwhelm and flooding.
How?
We're going to take this step by step.
The first step, move out.
Okay, you've done that.
So now we're at step two.
Did you move out?
I can't stay here another minute?
Or did you move out and make sure that...
You're handling matters.
You own this place.
Both.
Okay, good.
Because sometimes we get so, I can't take this anymore.
I'm just, I got to get out.
And we just say like what you said in the first sentence.
The questions of motherhood are way more important than the questions of real estate.
They are, but everything is interrelated.
What do I do with that feeling that comes up in me when the motherhood is not addressed or talked about?
Or in every email that I send I mention embryos or something about it, and it is just literally To him.
Look, the question I have is, what happened?
What happened?
That's a great question.
But it's a kind question.
As in curious, not as in, you know, kind of, what happened?
Look at what just, how did we unravel in full speed like this?
Here we are.
Something that we once experienced as a wish that we shared, a desire, has turned into a total war.
What happened?
What have I missed that I didn't hear that you tried to tell me?
Or what did you try to tell me that you couldn't tell me?
Or how was I misled?
Or is that not an option?
Is that not one of the choices?
It's not a question because you're very answered.
I was misled.
Basically you can just say look from him.
I need a little bit of clarity so that I don't feel like I've just been whiplashed.
What actually happened between us?
That's the first thing.
What did I miss?
You know, and did I miss it?
Or do you think we colluded in a kind of a mezzo mezzo conversation?
I didn't want to push because at that time I didn't want to push.
He didn't want to be pushed.
And so we found ourselves in this kind of no man's land.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
Six years you've been living together.
How many years did you live together?
Almost four.
Okay.
It's not like, you know.
And we were so in love, so perfectly well suited with our lifestyle.
How we'd raise the kids, what school, this and that, where we would travel, what languages.
So, so detailed.
So what came up for you that suddenly you lost your compass?
Yes.
You lost your north, you know, because it was your north too.
Or did I really misunderstand this and it was always only mine?
In my memory, I see us sharing a future together and talking about our vision for the future.
And in my present, it suddenly feels like I was alone on that stage. performing a play for two that's exactly how i feel right so am i mistaken i just would appreciate if you can help clarify that for me i need some of that and i assume that you wouldn't that it would be better for you too so that's you know you can continue rage but maybe not at him directly because it's not you need some you need a few things you need clarity you need to know that you didn't invent reality i feel like i did i feel you go back and forth one minute you think you invented reality Because it can't be that it was so off.
And the next minute you say we were talking about schools and the future and all of that.
We were in shared reality.
You're going back and forth.
And all of this is very normal and very common.
I was just about to ask that.
I was just going to ask could you give me a little perspective on where you don't know left from right?
This idea of making a decision and...
So when you say to me, how can you say what's in my head without having heard me say it?
It's because in some way I've heard it.
I've just created a composite of a lot of different voices.
And you tell me if it resonates for you.
But the only way I do know to do this is because...
Because you're not the only one.
You're not the first one.
And because it's happening often and maybe too often.
I mean the guilt that I feel of having chosen the wrong partner for this and being sort of complicit and being misled or misleading myself or some combination.
I don't think you chose the wrong partner for this.
No, no.
I'm willing to give now.
I don't know the person.
But I sometimes think if a person is in the story, but as they get closer they suddenly flee, something else is happening that may have very little to do with you.
I may be completely...
And you know, when I say this I hear one voice in me says it's important to have curiosity for where he came from.
And another voice can hear people who say you cut that person way too much slack or.
But no, I think if you heard for three years, we want this together.
Then you heard it.
There may be things in between that you didn't want to pay enough attention to.
Then you got to 38.
Then you said to yourself...
You know, if I leave now, I'm going to have to start the whole thing all over.
Who knows when I would be meeting someone, if I will be meeting someone, and yet he and I are doing so well together.
We have such a beautiful life.
You know, I cannot imagine he's not going to want to go through with this.
So sunken costs.
Right.
That too is what many women often tell themselves.
And even more, even like, it'll be okay.
I can be alone, or I can do it basically by myself, or I'll have an unavailable husband and I'll have a kid, a dad who's just available.
You're right.
And making all of that okay.
We are in the midst of our session.
There is still so much talk about, so stay with us.
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There's something I just want to say.
If you want to raise a child... a child you will raise.
Tell me more about that.
It may not come the way you have imagined.
It may not be part of the love story and the romantic plot the way you have conceived of it and the way you've been told it should be.
It may not be a donor that you know, and it may be a donor that you know, but not your own eggs and your own genetic material.
It may not be any of the places or the references that we are familiar with, but you will have a child.
It's not like an illness that when you have it, sometimes you can't reverse it.
A child you will have.
It may not come the way you have always thought of it, but a child you will have.
You may birth it, you may not birth it, but a child you will have.
It's very important to, that's the fate.
I was just going to ask, thank you so much for saying that.
That's the thing.
That's such a good thing to say.
I understand.
The child may come out of you.
The child may have been born before you met him.
You have to begin to think in the plural of the multiple forms and the multiple manifestations.
Yes.
Now.
Do I promise you?
No, I cannot.
No.
But I do know that if you multiply the manifestations it changes the plot and it increases the fate.
That is so helpful.
Can you say it again?
Yes.
A child you will have, if you want to raise a child, There will be a child.
It may not be your biological child.
It may not be your partner's biological child.
It may not grow inside of you.
It may grow inside of you.
You may give it birth.
You may meet it later.
But it will come.
At this moment, you are exploring one plot, one track.
You can continue to do so.
But in the back of your mind.
You need to know there are many ways that that child can manifest in my life.
To broaden the vision.
To broaden the vision of how you will have a child in your life, in your world.
And the anger that comes with feeling that someone else is in control of that vision and now it's not possible.
Right is where, where?
Where do i put that?
Just a little to the left?
That's why i said to you you didn't make the wrong choice.
Something shifted here, something.
Yes, you chose to respond to the nebulousness in a certain way.
And that way is often what women experience when they are on a timeline, when they feel that they're getting close to their 40s and when their relationship is okay.
It's also not the relationship is bad and so you just hang in there for the sake.
You think that the quality of the relationship will inspire your partner to want to continue and build a family?
So all of this is sensical, as we say.
But at this moment, you're going to get a little bit, if you can, of clarity from hemp.
You're going to broaden the backdrop for yourself because it's there.
The anger, the grief, the sorrow, the betrayal, the loss.
There's a lot of different feelings, but there's also the drive.
You're not going to go alone to the clinics.
That's one thing.
Thank you for saying that.
It was so hard.
I had to go downstairs and come back.
I was... very difficult ask any of your strong women friends to go with you you know you may not you may not do any of the freezing in the city that you live in because outside of of this area there are many more affordable places to do so that's such a good point i didn't think about that either okay so there's there's that there's When I'm with my friends and I go to do these things, it's a very different experience than when I go alone and I go me and my bereftness.
That's the word I've been using to describe myself.
Yeah, I feel bereft.
You are.
Fuck.
Okay?
Come on.
You can also...
This is just another... For every option I give you, I can hear somebody say, that is totally crazy.
Good.
I'll give them to you anyway.
But, you know, you could say to him, can I use them?
That's the conversation.
Can I use them?
And you can decide.
If you want to recognize, if you want to be part of it or not.
Or maybe you'll come in a few years.
The door will be open to you.
Even though I think I've closed that door.
No, that doesn't mean we will be a relationship.
That means you may become a co-parent.
We will be platonic co-parents.
I mean, that was the original conversation that led to...
Yeah, but you said it in a way that was I'm fed up of thinking of waiting.
You know, I've had it.
I'm going ahead on my own.
Fuck you.
So that is not.
That is a complete different agreement than to say you know I?
I think I said what I'm thinking.
I set you up.
Basically, you have to be strategic.
What are the laws?
Do you know what are the laws for embryos?
Who owns them?
Half, half.
I think you both have to sign off on.
So you need consent.
And that's what I asked for.
And I gave him a year.
But I got to make moves.
Have you said I can sign and release you of any obligations?
Yes.
And?
No response.
He's in a battle with himself.
I can't, you know what I mean?
I'm doing everything.
I've got a lawyer, a therapist, whatever.
Is he still coming with you to the therapist?
No, we've stopped.
Okay.
Okay.
I get nervous about the rage.
I get nervous about that.
So that's your work.
It's a matter of timing.
This is not the moment, even though you won't be able to not be raged.
But this is a moment for you to say, here's what happens.
In context, it made sense.
It's easy to berate yourself afterwards.
But in context, that day, we had just gone there.
We had a beautiful time.
We had this conversation.
Of course, I was hopeful.
It's very easy to judge oneself after the fact, because you take away all the circumstances and you're just left with the decision.
It's like, what was I thinking?
Yes.
But when you bring back the rest of the decor, that thinking in the moment made sense.
Afterwards you can go back and what could I have done differently?
And how did I not hear this and that?
But at this moment, that is the channel that you probably need to dim a little bit.
You're so right.
You're so right.
It's getting in the way.
How do you soothe that rage in the moment when it comes swelling up?
When I feel that someone's taken my life in their hands?
And it's not the first time.
All the control and all the work and all the prep and all the thoughtfulness and all the healthness and all the spirituality and all the knowledge and all the work is for naught.
I mean, that's really scary.
Maybe what you're saying is it's not for naught.
It cannot be for nothing.
Nothing is for nothing.
Whoever you were at the time that made those embryos is imbued in that.
Those embryos are a part of me, whether I use them or not.
And that there is, if a child is what I want, a child is what I will have.
And the definition of family, the definition of child, the definition of parent can evolve.
And I don't need to know what those things are necessarily right now in detail, but I need to know that they are available, options that I can pull from in the infinite scope of what is possible.
Yes, you heard it beautifully.
Is it wrong to say it doesn't make you feel any better?
No, it's not normal to you, shouldn't?
Why would you feel better?
You, you may.
You know it may make, it may help you not feel worse.
It doesn't make you feel better, not in this moment.
You know it's okay, and if you get five minutes where it feels a little bit calmer, that's fine, and then it will be 10 minutes.
But this is what needs to happen at this moment, not sure, you know?
I have things to do.
That resonates so much.
Thank you so much for listening.
And for sharing all of the wisdom and stories that you've heard.
And for being so tender with this topic.
Providing a...
Bigger ones, softer, rounded edges, you know.
Thank you.
It's really helpful.
Thank you.
You're most welcome.
This was Anastair, Calling a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.
If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call.
Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you.
Send your question to producer at estherperel.com.
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Atten.
Original music and additional production. by Paul Schneider.
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
