Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr. | Morbid

Hey weirdos, before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends!

Wondery Plus! It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak with ad -free episodes and early access to new episodes lurks around every corner.

So come join us, if you dare!

Morbid is available one week early and ad -free only on Wondery Plus.

You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

pie. You're listening to a morbid network podcast. We get support from Amazon Prime, hey, weirdos, you know what's literally the most amazing thing ever?

Amazon Prime. Listen up because this is going to blow your minds.

With Prime, you get faster than lightning delivery on everything.

We're talking millions of items, literally everything you could ever want or need, but wait, there's more, there's more than everything you could want or need.

Prime Video lets you binge all those shows we're obsessed with and Amazon Music has all the bops for your next dance party.

I have been ordering a little bit on Prime lately.

I had to get some earplugs the other night because my husband was a Snorey Snore Snore in and I said, please send them to me the very next day and they did.

That was great. Loved that.

Whether you're a total bookworm, a gaming fanatic or you just really like trying new things or sleeping through the night without your husband snoring waking you up, Prime's out your back.

eBooks for days, free in -game goodies and everything you need to make your next DIY project.

From streaming to shopping it's on Prime.

Visit amazon .com slash prime to get more out of whatever you're into.

LIE. An ID documentary event.

Monday at 9. Hey weirdos, I'm Ashe.

And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid.

This is Morbid, and we're not gonna get right into it but I just wanted to say, we're talking about a case today that is rough.

Oh, so we should do some bitty banter at the beginning.

Yeah, we should prep everybody.

Okay. At a time. Well, let's see.

We all in this office have brand new tattoos.

We do. We went to Black Veil in Salem, of course.

Saw Matt and Ryan, our besties.

If you ever need a tattoo, you need to go to Black Veil.

You do. For many reasons.

Yeah. For the company, for the aesthetic, the ambiance, the tattoos.

The vibes? The vibes.

You got to do it all.

Yeah. That's true. Do it.

So that was delightful.

That was super fun.

It was a nice little like treat -yourself day.

Yeah it was. Um what else is going on?

I'm trying to think, what's the news?

What's the hot goss?

What's the 411? The Fore11 is that I… What?

Mikey just reminded me.

what conclave oh conclave watch came to a crashing halt very quickly yeah it started just as quick as it ended yeah I was watching live though you were so I had it up on my computer cuz I was ready she screamed Oh newborn I said as soon as that white smoke came out I said oh my god we got a we got him which I'm shocked that's the first time ever right first time ever and like especially right now.

I'm like, wow, shocking.

I know that we've managed to pull that off and we can say Pope Lior, uh, he seems pretty cool as far as Pope's go.

Yeah. I think he's like aggressive and shit very outspoken.

Yeah. Uh, he picked a cool name.

We've had a lot of Francis is, we've got a lot of John Paul's and all that shenanigans.

So you know, let's yeah let's fucking go.

John said he's because John looked him up because I've been obsessing over conclave so he was like I should probably know this he looked him up and apparently he's from Villanova which meant nothing to me until John said that a lot of the Knicks players are from Villanova so he was like oh Villanova's having a moment and I said you get Pope or you get finals.

You do not get both.

So Nix listen to me right now.

You chose Pope so you got Pope, you don't get the NBA finals.

So honestly I think that's a good thing.

John thought it was Villanova having a moment and that's bad, I say you get Pope or you get finals.

Yeah that's what I feel, and I think the the Celtics that we just have to hope and pray that they're gonna make history for another year.

Yeah, you know there's this is all on purpose.

It's not at all. But I know I just became a fan.

So let me have this I'm sitting here in my brand new Celtic switcher.

You are we really because you know what?

I'm a fan no matter how it's going It's true, but I hope it upticks.

I also hope we are on the precipice of game three We'll let you know guys I know but of course Happy Mother's Day everybody Mother's Day weekend.

We have to like go do stuff.

There's a Celtics game.

I'm like gosh, darn it I'm gonna be like that sports bro at the table with my phone.

I know, watching it on your phone.

I know. But yeah, so that's cool.

Pope Watch 2025 ended as quickly as it began.

Yeah, it was still fun watching them close the doors on the Sistine Chapel, I was like, this is so metal. There's like ceiling them in there and they're all sitting down.

It looked very cinematic.

We need more traditions, we don't have any cool traditions.

Yeah, well and you know, I don't...

again like the pope really doesn't affect my day to day life in any way, shape, or form.

But like, I was interested because it is nice to see a more progressive mouthpiece for Jesus talking.

I think that's important because we don't need somebody spewing hate and bullshit to people who will take what he says very seriously because he is seen as the word of the Lord. He's young though, he's 69.

So this one might be hanging around for a while.

Okay, so we might have a Leo Dynasty happening.

Jesus's word will be pretty lit for the next 20 years.

It will be pretty lit for a while, let's hope.

So, you know, that's an interesting little update.

I thought we were going to have Conclave watch for a little while, thought I was gonna get to talk about it for a little longer.

I know. But I did find out there was a weird Conclave that happened a while ago that took like three years though.

And I think they ended up taking the, like the roof off the building that they were in and everything.

It was a long time ago.

Wait, why'd they take the roof off the building?

To force them to make a decision.

They also rationed their food to bread and water.

Wow. Like stop feeding them actual food.

That's dark. Well, they were like three years pick a pope.

Oh yeah. Like, let's do this.

So maybe we'll cover that because that seems like a very interesting little.

I know you brought that up the other day and I was like, that sounds interesting.

It's a weird one. Yeah.

But yeah, that was an interesting update that happened yesterday.

Yeah, I think that's like all the news.

Celtics, Pope, that too.

Yeah, other than that, we're gonna get into a really shitty person.

No, I think we have briefly touched upon this man, I believe in a crime countdown.

Oh. Okay. Cause when I was reading about him, I was like, why do I know this?

And then I was like, oh.

That's always the worst feeling, cause then you're like, have I done this?

And I'm like, we can cover this in full, but yeah, it's the life and death of lobster boy, Grady Stiles.

Great. Well, it's not ringing a bell in my crime countdown part of my brain.

This is one of those things that, so obviously the life and death, he dies.

He's murdered. Murder is never okay, but you are gonna hear me say, he's a shitbag of a human being.

Oh, is this like a Ken McElroy deal?

He's an abusive, awful person to his daughters and to his wife, so obviously no -one deserves to be killed, but I'm just saying like, you're gonna hear me talk some shit about him because he deserves it.

Yeah, you gotta be real no matter what.

Yeah, I'm just gonna let you know!

So who is Grady Stiles?

Tell me! Grady Franklin Stiles Jr. Not Franklin!

Franklin was my oldest. I know was born June 26, 1937.

What does that make him?

So I think at that point he's a Cancer.

He's a Cancer? Okay.

I don't know a lot about Cancer men.

I do. He fits. Oh, yeah, he fits.

Yeah. The third child of Edna and Grady Stiles.

Sr. Grady Stiles Sr. was a carnival worker and performer.

He was billed as one of life's it's human oddities.

Oh yeah. That's terrible to say.

There's a lot of this kind of like.

Yeah, carnivals were wily.

Talk of quote unquote freaks and such. Grady Sr. was born with electrodactyly which is a physical deformity where one or more fingers on the hands or toes on the feet are missing.

Oh, okay. This condition though gave Grady Sr. and it often gives people who are dealing with it the appearance of having claw -like hands.

Okay. so kind of like those of a lobster.

This led to his being billed on the sideshow circuit as the lobster man.

Now, despite being a very rare condition, it affects actually roughly one in every 100 ,000 babies born.

Electrodactyly ran in the Stiles family as far back as the 1840s.

That's crazy. In some cases it'll occur in both the hands and feet.

But in Grady Stile's case, it only occurred in his hands.

the senior. So when the couple's third child, Grady, Jr. was born, no one was really surprised to discover that this child had inherited the condition, which was present in Grady Stiles, Jr.'s hands and feet.

Oh, okay. Now, according to author Fred Rosen, the Stiles family had always not really listened to the advice of doctors who warned against having children because of the likelihood of them inheriting this condition, because especially when it's of the hands and feet, it leads to a very difficult life, you know?

And according to Rosen, their attitude was, quote, hell, if a child was born a freak, it was the child's problem, the child's and God's.

Oh, okay, that's one way to look at it.

It's like, damn, what an outlook.

That's your problem, little baby.

Yeah, a child that didn't ask to be brought into this world.

Like that's fucked up in a way I can't describe.

In fact, Grady, Jr's sister, Sarah, had also inherited their father's condition, but it only affected one arm and one leg.

Years into her adulthood, actually, Sarah had her non -functional leg amputated and replaced with an artificial limb.

Okay. Unlike his sister, Grady's affliction was far worse than even their father's and prevented him from being able to walk.

He had to rely on a wheelchair for mobility.

Okay. Now at the time of his birth, the Stiles family was living in relative poverty in Pittsburgh's North Side.

They were barely getting by on the wages they were getting from the carnival circuit.

And for Grady, early life was a challenge to say the very least. Again, you feel really bad for young Grady.

Yeah, he was given a lot to deal with.

A lot to deal with right out the gate.

With his father constantly on the road with the sideshow, there was no one around to normalize his condition really, which was a problem.

And so he was treated as a spectacle whenever his mother took him out of the apartment, which is, that must be very difficult.

Fortunately, just a few years after he was born, they did relocate to Gibsonton, which is a small town in central Florida.

And this is very interesting.

In the decades that had preceded them moving there, um, this had become a popular place to move for retired circus workers.

And those who are seeking refuge during the off season of the circus and the carnival So, due to the large number of performers in town, the local administration had also established very unusual zoning laws and this allowed the residents to keep elephants, tigers and other large exotic animals on their property.

Which would solve the problems also of boarding the circus animals.

But for young Grady, this kind of solved the problem of him feeling like an outcast because now he's hanging out with a bunch of circus workers and sideshow workers and the kids the sideshow workers and a bunch of exotic animals yeah he fits in he's not weird like he's just one of them but it didn't do anything to solve their financial issues that's about as a result the stiles children were all expected to just kind of forgo traditional schooling and just pitch in at the circus to help support the family as the only able -bodied fully able -bodied child margaret the oldest worked the ticket booth

until she actually ended up passing away from a brain aneurysm in 1951 at the age of 18.

Oh wow, this family had so much to deal with.

Yeah, for Grady Jr. his, he was just gonna live a life of performing that was what he was going to do just as his father had, from one small town to another, the family spent the majority of their lives traveling with the carnival and they were billed as the lobster family.

Oh yeah, throughout the first half of the 20th century, circuses like Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey were so popular around the country, particularly during the depression and war years, you know, when a family could expect a day's worth of entertainment for a very small fee and just to take them away from all the reality going on.

Exactly reality. For the carnival workers and performers, the pay might not have been great, but it was consistent and the work offered, you know, a stable and supportive environment that a lot of them had not experienced outside of the circus.

They kinda treated like shit.

Um, in fact, Fred Rosen said, in those days, the carnival was indeed a family.

In those days, people joined up for the duration.

They stayed with the same carnival through thick and thin.

They were there for each other, the fat man, the bearded lady, the rustabouts and the strippers, it just became like a kind though you know it's like American Horror Story freak show yeah they become like a family yeah in the present it would obviously be very illegal for parents to just take their kids out of school and be like you're working at the circus for good reason like but under the circumstances and given his experiences in a know quote -unquote ordinary community greedy jr. was honestly happier with the sideshow than he had been just go in Pittsburgh well that's good not only was his family

be able to just be together all the time, but he also loved performing and he liked being in the spotlight.

Like he was okay with it to feed him like he really liked it and when they weren't on the road, they were tired to Gibson.

And there he was treated as just any other child in town.

So it was, he wasn't dealing with that bullshit, you know, and he was able to live a relatively normal childhood among other children of circus workers, like their normal.

I was going to say a different kind of normal.

what they saw is that.

Despite the acceptance he found in gibsonton and his ability to you know help the family by working at the sideshow circuit, greeted styles his life was definitely one of hardship.

It's not like he was just coasting through.

He had a lot to deal with and it wasn't long before this kind of hardship that was just kind of hardwired inside of him was leading to a lot of bitterness.

Because again it's not like he was treated nicely by everyone he came in contact with you know what i mean like he as people who understood his struggles yeah and some people i'm sure the people that came to the circus sometimes would probably dehumanize him and like that i'm sure that's gonna live in your nervous system at some point yeah definitely so he was often frustrated often bitter um but he was very determined to prove himself to be as capable as anybody else yeah uh he be so one thing he could do which he did like he very much fixated on was building up his strength in his early teens

and he developed incredible upper body strength.

Yeah. And that he used this kind of to compensate for his lack of dexterity, lack of being able to really move around like he felt everybody else could.

At the same time, he adapted to his condition really well and had learned to use his hands.

In a claw -like fashion.

So he could hold objects, he could write.

He could do other very complex tasks with his hands.

Okay. Which, when you look at it, you're like, wow, at this point you're like, good for you, man.

You really like took lemons, and you made lemonade out of them.

Good for you. Now, by the early 1950s, Grady Sr., his father, had decided it was gonna be much more lucrative for the family to go into business for themselves.

And they struck out on their own.

Now around this time, 17 -year -old Grady Jr. married his first wife, Deborah Brady.

That was in a small ceremony in Tampa, Florida.

Now, unfortunately that was only going to last about a year before they divorced and Grady ended up just really focusing on the business for a little while.

Uh, it, he's a horrible husband.

Oh, just to put that out there, it lasted a year.

I not surprised by that.

I don't, I don't know based on what we find out later, uh, marriage to him was not a fun time.

Now Grady didn't have to wait long to find love again though.

In the spring of 1959 during a stop in Trenton, New Jersey, Grady met Mary Theresa Herzog who went by Teresa.

One of the carnival's newest ticket booth workers, and instantly they were in love.

Now by the time she'd met Grady Stiles, 21 year old Theresa's experiences with men had been universally bad.

So when she was, this is awful, when she was six years old, Theresa's mother divorced Theresa's father and remarried a monster named Frank Tyler who would go on to sexually abuse her for years.

Oh that's terrible.

Frank Tyler piece of shit.

Yeah. Given the terrible conditions of her home life Teresa would like lose herself in carnivals, you know, it was just like one of those things like escaping reality.

Yeah it really was.

It reminded me of like a movie we just watched for Scream where the devil roams. One of the characters in that talks about how his father was abusive when he was younger and he would escape to the circus, yup just to get out of that reality.

which is just so sad.

Yeah it is sad. Theresa so she found refuge in these carnivals and circuses that would travel and they would come to her small Vermont town in the spring and summer months.

She later said the carnival fascinated me.

I guess it fascinated most young people.

I thought the lights and the excitement were just great.

Now in a bid to get closer to the carnival and really like just envelop herself in it began working as a ticket taker during the summer.

Then when she turned 18 she joined up with the circus on a full -time basis and finally got away from her stepfather for good.

Before long she met and fell in love with one of the Rustabouts, Jerry Plummer.

Not Grady Stiles...

and soon they were married.

This show is sponsored by better help.

If you listen to this show, you know that men's mental health throughout history has been a little stigmatized, not been prioritized.

It is okay to struggle, real strength though, comes from opening up about what you're carrying and doing something about it so that you can be at your best for yourself and everybody else in your life.

If you're a man and you're feeling the weight of the world, talk to someone.

A friend, a loved one, a therapist. I have benefited greatly from therapy, I'm not a man but I still have benefited greatly from therapy and I think everybody can.

With over 35 ,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform having served over 5 million people globally and it works.

With an app store rating of 4 .9 out of 5 based on over 1 .7 million client reviews, it's convenient, too.

You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life plus switch therapists at any time.

As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise.

Talk it out with BetterHelp.

Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at BetterHelp .com slash morbid.

That's BetterHelp H -E -L -P dot com slash morbid.

Every day, I make countless decisions, but one of the easiest and the most important is securing my home with SimpliSafe.

The moment I arm my system, I know my family and everything I've worked for are protected.

Whether I'm stepping out for the day or settling in for the night, that small action delivers something priceless.

Peace of mind. I can focus on what matters, rest easier, and go about my day knowing that SimpliSafe has my back in a crisis.

I want you to have that same confidence too, because it's not just the mundane day -to -days.

We all go on vacation, sometimes you're away from your home for a full week.

And what I love about SimpliSafe is that you can be at home with the click of a button.

I click those buttons, bring up my cameras, and I know exactly what is going on on my property, and I feel safe while I'm away because of the active guard outdoor protection.

With SimpliSafe, millions of Americans enjoy the new standard in home security and greater peace of mind every time they arm their system.

Visit simplisafe .com to claim 50 % off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free.

That's SimpliSafe dot com slash morbid there's no safe like SimpliSafe.

Now while things started out fine in the relationship Teresa soon found herself in a relationship with yet another abusive man.

For more than a year she suffered verbal, physical and emotional abuse at her piece of s**t husband's hands.

She was beaten with his fists she was pushed down the stairs while she was pregnant with their child and at one point he even threw pot of scalding coffee at her.

What a fucking monster.

Yeah. And finally he just because, you know, he was a piece of shit in every way, he just grew tired of the relationship and he didn't really want to be a father.

So Jerry plumber took off leaving Teresa to raise their daughter Deborah on her own, probably much better off, and she was earning very little money at the circus.

So obviously it was hard, but to her credit, she was very resourceful, very determined.

So she found a lawyer and scraped together enough money to file for divorce and Jerry didn't contest it.

When Grady first saw Teresa in the ticket booth, he was immediately struck by her beauty, her charm, he just was into it.

The problem was at the time, Grady and his father were a top draw for the circus and there's like a hierarchy.

Okay. And he would have been looked down upon for dating one of the ticket takers.

Okay. Cause that's like the job at the bottom of the hierarchy.

Isn't that interesting?

Yeah, that is interesting.

So he wasn't going to move on though, he was like, I'm not moving on and finding somebody else, like I like this girl.

So he began talking Teresa up to one of the owners, Stan Wright, encouraging him to consider her for a job as a Bali girl, which is apparently a term for one of the singing or dancing girls in the show, because he was like, she's beautiful, like why not bring her up there?

As a ticket taker, dating a performer was off limits, but as a Bali girl, she would be another performer in the show and their relationship would be very acceptable.

So fortunately for everyone Wright did see something he liked and Teresa was like, you know what, you're right.

Well, that's good. Hopefully she made some more money and that's the thing he gave her a chance as a performer.

So for Teresa, it was a huge step up.

She got some more money and so she was able to better provide for Debra, which Teresa seems like I feel really bad for Teresa because she seems like she's this awful life she's been really taken advantage of and treated horribly by the men in her life but she just wants to be like she wants to take care of her kids like that really does seem like there's a lot of like i really just want to do right by my kids and she wasn't done right for right so it's really hard to break that cycle especially back then when you had nothing like no resources really to count on as far as therapy and exactly like

she's not being taught how to You can just tell that Teresa does have something inside of her that just desperately wants to break that cycle.

That's who she is. She doesn't make she makes some poor choices later but I do believe that like deep down in there she just really wanted to do right by her kids.

But this so this move up also moved her closer to the action at the center of the show and more importantly to her closer to Grady.

Because she liked him too.

She liked him too. Within a few months she had moved up from a dancing girl to become a sort of jack of all trades within the performances.

One of her more prominent roles was, blade box girl, which was a kind of assistant to the magic act.

Where she would step into the box and appear to be stabbed a million times with swords and come out and be like, I'm fine.

That must been real scary.

Yeah. So she was the lovely assistant essentially, at the same time as she was so excited to be on stage, she was so excited that Grady Stiles had chosen her as the object of his affection.

having only ever known very negative and abusive attention from the men in her life being with Grady, she said was unlike anything she'd ever experienced.

He was showering her with gifts, with praise, attention, making her feel wanted and adored.

She said Grady was such a charming man, everyone enjoyed being in his company.

Now, not long after beginning their relationship, they started living together.

And with Grady was now stepping in as a father to Deborah, and it seemed like everything was going great.

In the off season, they returned to Gibsonton, where Theresa found work in a Tampa shrimp factory during the off season.

And within a few years, their first child Margaret was born.

Unfortunately, less than a month after Margaret was born, she died from pneumonia.

Oh, that's terrible.

The situation repeated itself with their next child, David, who also died a month after his birth from pneumonia, and it was attributed to the poor living conditions of life in a traveling circus.

Now the health problems continued for the Stiles family because a few months later Grady Stiles Sr. was struggling with poor health too.

Finally he decided to retire from traveling altogether.

Now unable to afford the cost of living in Florida Grady Sr. moved back to Pittsburgh and found a small apartment there so now Grady Jr. is worried about his parents Pittsburgh because they're in poor health yeah and he's in Florida so he started renting an apartment in the city so he could check on them and be around them.

The apartment was a huge financial strain on them, obviously, because it's just another expense.

So to help support them in the off season, Grady Jr began performing in a one man show to make extra money when they weren't on the road.

The work allowed him to support himself and his wife.

But this additional work plus the stress of traveling back and to Pittsburgh and the unexpected tragic deaths of two children, like infants.

That's a lot on your plate.

It brought out a meanness in Grady that Teresa said she had never seen even the slightest hint of before.

Oh, no. So this came, she was like, this came out of nowhere.

He didn't deal well with stress.

Which like grief. A lot of people say that the death of a child...

Will change you. Can change your relationship and it really depends on, one, the strength of the relationship to begin with and, you know, things that are lying dormant and the people that are experiencing it.

So obviously, something was lying dormant in Grady Stiles that that's just really brought it all out.

So the bitterness, the frustration, the rage, it all, in what he saw as his constant misfortune.

It led him to start drinking heavily, which only exacerbated the anger.

And before long, he was directing it all at Teresa.

According to Fred Rosen, Grady was a good provider.

However, when he was drinking, Grady started beating Theresa, taking care to keep his blows to her body so no one would see the bruises.

Wow. So to me that is diabolical.

It is diabolical. Because you know what you're doing is wrong and you're not even just to have the wherewithal to think like that clearly yeah I should do it somewhere that someone can see yeah that's fuck that's dark.

In 1963 Theresa gave birth for a third time and this time the baby would not only survived, but also managed to not inherit Grady's condition.

The healthy birth of their daughter Donna was a relief to Teresa, who obviously already experienced two traumatic births and traumatic deaths.

But the girl's health, like seemingly, quote unquote, normal mobility, seemed to fuel Grady's anger.

Following Donna's birth, Grady began to drink even more than he had.

He was staying out late with other carnies and sometimes not coming home for days.

Fred Rosen said when he did come home, he would generally make it to the living room and pass out on the floor.

Sometimes he'd throw up first and sleep in his own vomit.

Oh fuck. In the morning, Deborah and Donna would get up and they would have to step over Grady to get out of the trailer.

So the children would have to just step over him in his own vomit to get out of their house.

That's horrific. Now, looking back on her childhood, Donna reflected on her childhood saying, there was nothing really good I can recall.

Yeah, I mean, when you're stepping over your dad in his own vomit.

Is it, your abuse of your dad?

She said he always drank, continually drank.

I really started noticing it at about seven because he would yell at us if he was drinking at home.

That's so sad. Seven years old.

To realize that at seven years old is fucked.

For a time, the girls could rely on school to get away from this whole abuse, but even that was unreliable because Grady would routinely pull them out of school three or four months before the end of the year to help the traveling show, how are they even moving on?

Exactly. In 1969, Teresa gave birth again, this time to a daughter they named Katherine, who was born with the condition.

Okay. The birth of their second daughter should have been a joyous occasion for any couple, but it didn't do anything to stop Grady's drinking or lessen the violence in the household.

Things finally came to a head one night in the mid 1970s when Grady and Teresa got into a really bad argument after the show.

Donna said that night after closing, he called mom out in the show.

They were arguing. She came back into the trailer crying.

And then he came back in the trailer, pulled the door open, let it slam real hard. And he took $20 and he threw it at her.

After throwing the money at her, he screamed, take your fucking kids and get out my face.

Oh her kids her kids okay yeah literally fuck this guy like he's awful um because he does this and then when he does later I'm like go fuck yourself and in front of his kids.

Oh he does awful shit.

To the girl's surprise, and this is where you use you really see moments of Teresa just making like very smart choices for her kids and then obviously you know she's a very abused woman.

Yeah, very abused, very traumatized so she obviously make some questionable ones later right uh but this is one that really shocked the girls as well because he's a scary guy so they were surprised because their mother did not say like oh he's just you know drunkenly ranting like just leave him alone which often would happen instead she just looked at them and she said pack a bag and we're leaving wow and she packed her own suitcase and they all left and they got a room at a motel across the street once they were there she called her friend harry glenn newman who was part the circus as well he

was known and this is what he was known by back then he was known as midget man oh man due to his small stature gotcha um things were different than things were real things were uh bad then yeah after leaving grady that night glenn became a lifesaver for theresa he allowed them all the girls and her to live in a small camper until they all on his property until they all moved to Ohio to live with Glenn's mother.

Wow. For several months, the children finally got to enjoy stability and normalcy of children their age.

Like, things were happy without the chaos of this traveling show or, you know, a rageful, abusive, like, alcoholic father.

Unfortunately, that was short -lived because about four or five months after leaving Grady, Teresa received a summons and traveled to a Pennsylvania courthouse with the girls.

Unbeknownst to her, after she left Grady he filed for divorce and petitioned the court for custody of the children.

Even though he literally told her to leave with her children.

Oh they're yours now?

Yeah. Okay. Because she had been unaware of the divorce because he did it without her knowing.

Right. And he didn't—she didn't know that he had filed for custody.

Yeah. So she didn't contest anything because she didn't know it had happened.

Right. And the court awarded full custody of the children to Grady.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Which is so fucked up.

Yeah it is. Grady took the girls back to Florida with him.

Wow. Which just breaks my fucking heart.

Cause I truly believe if these girls had been allowed to live with Theresa and Glenn, they would have had a totally different childhood.

They could've started healing from things.

They're young enough to forget some things.

They get even more traumatized.

Oh no. So Grady takes the girls back to Florida with him, but only long enough to sell the house They lived in and get rid of all his wife's belongings.

Oh that's normal. Um Cathy later said, Catherine, said he gave all of mom's whatnots, lamps, and all of her stuff to his sister.

He would not let her come back to get her clothes, which included a fur coat and some evening dresses.

He gave away all of her clothes.

That's so f**ked up.

Yeah, that's abusive in its own way.

Yeah, you know? Oh, he's just an a**hole.

With Teresa out of the picture, Grady began seeing a woman named named Barbara who quickly moved herself and her daughter in the Stiles' family full -time.

Catherine said later she wanted to put herself in my mom's place.

She wanted to be our mother.

She tried to force herself on to us.

But she wasn't trying to be like a mother.

She was she cuz Theresa was known by her children.

They all agree she was a loving, caring, kind mother.

Yeah like like a momma.

She was a momma. Barbara only seemed interested in playing the roll to the extent that it got her closer to Grady.

So she's that stepmother.

She's Meredith Blaking it.

Yeah. Rather than actually do any parenting, most of the responsibility for raising the children, including Barbara's daughter, Susie fell to Donna since Deborah had decided to move out of the house after the divorce.

Oh. Now after moving the family back to Pittsburgh to be near his parents, Grady's drunken Violet behavior continued without interruption, including the period where Barbara was pregnant with their child.

In 1976, Barbara gave birth to a boy, the couple named Grady, the third, who was born with the same condition as his father and his half sister at this point.

Okay. In the meantime, Teresa kept living with Glen Newman who turned out to be a pretty good husband and a good provider.

In 1974, she gave birth to a boy, Harry Glen Jr. known as Glenne.

Everybody. They were obviously very happy to have a new little baby boy, but she had a profound sense of pain and loss of having lost her children to Gary Grady because he was refusing to let her see them.

Wow. So she was trying her everything she could to see them or have contact with them and he wouldn't let them.

And it's like, why did he get full custody?

I mean, very different time again, but.

Yeah. Despite everything though, Theresa was still hopeful that one day she was going to be able to have a relationship with her daughters again.

So she convinced Glenn to move to Pittsburgh.

And Glenn was like, let's go.

Glenn seems like the best guy.

I know. So they moved to Pittsburgh to be closer to the girls so she could start really trying to get them back.

Yeah. Now, this pissed Grady off in a massive way.

In the winter of 1976, the full extent of Grady's cruelty became apparent when after some conversation, he agreed to let Teresa take the girls to visit her mother in Vermont for Christmas.

Oh, this is going to ruin me.

But rather than have Glenn and Theresa just pick them up, Grady insisted they meet him at a bar near his apartment where he proceeded to get violently drunk.

After downing five or six drinks, they all went back to the apartment to get the girls, only to discover that none of the girls were there, the place was empty.

Sitting on the couch, Grady reached beneath him and pulled out a revolver pointing it at Glenn and Theresa.

Moments later, Paul Fishbaugh, who was the sideshows known as the Fat Man, emerged from another room holding a shotgun.

Holy shit. With Paul Fishbaugh now guarding Glen, who, remember, has very small stature.

Right. So this giant man is holding this smaller man.

So he can't protect his wife.

So he can't protect his wife with a shotgun.

Grady then started beating Theresa viciously in front of her husband, her helpless husband.

Baby Glenn was also there and was screaming the entire time.

Oh my God. Yeah, when he'd finally tired of hitting Theresa he let them leave but not before telling them, don't bother me anymore, next time I'm going to kill you, Glenn and your son.

Wow. That was because she had agreed to let her daughters go for Christmas.

Why don't you just say no?

Yeah, cause he's a cruel son of a bitch. is.

His cruelty continued in the years that followed, and even moving out of the apartment wasn't enough to escape it.

In April 1978, when Donna was 15 years old, her cousin introduced her to 18 -year -old Jack Lane, and the two hit it off immediately.

Knowing her father would do anything he could to drive Jack away, because, why would you allow your daughters to have happiness, the couple frequently met in secret, often spending time together in a park a few blocks away from apartment.

One evening in September after hearing countless stories of Grady's abuse Jack was like I can't let you go back there.

Yeah. I can't just keep sending you back to this place and hearing what he does to you.

Oh so Jack took Donna to his sister's apartment trying to give her some space to be safe.

Right. When she called home a few days later Grady fucking lost it screaming at her demanding she return home immediately and he told her I got detectives looking for you they'll find you and when I find that boy that's with you I'm gonna kill him oh no now for and she's telling him like he's a good guy he just wants to keep like take care of me because you yeah fucking out of violent for years Donna had listened to her father's drunken rants and threats of violence against her mother and her siblings and she'd suffer more she'd suffered more than the others when it came to physical abuse but when it

came to threats of killing Jack Donna was like I didn't believe that he was gonna go through with it oh no like I He understood that he beat the shit out of us and threatened us.

But I didn't think he would do it outside of our family.

Probably kill someone.

What she didn't know was, on September 11th, Grady went down to Pitlone, a local pawn shop, and submitted an application to purchase a new H &R 32 -caliber pistol.

Donna didn't return home, but kept living with Jack's sister for several more days, fearing what was gonna happen if she went home.

Donna and Jack decided the only way to get her away from her father for good was for them to get married.

Mm -hmm. But she was only 15 years old so she would need parental consent.

And in late September she called her father and explained what she wanted to do and to her surprise he didn't object.

That's terrifying because it sounds like Christmas.

Yeah. If you're listening to this podcast you know that a day can change in an instant.

How many stories have we told where one little thing just snowballed out of control and led down some really dark paths?

Well, you know what?

We need some nourishment so that we can stay sharp and out of danger.

And Kachaba Whole Body Meal Shakes will keep your body and mind nourished all day and ready for anything.

Here's the deal. When I first heard about Kachaba, I said, yeah sure, that sounds great, but I've tasted a million gajillion protein drinks and they all taste pretty yucky.

Not. Cachaba. I'm so happy I gave it a chance because this drink is actually delicious.

I've tried Greens powders before, I've tried different protein powders, and I've never really liked any of them until I tried Cachaba.

They have so many flavors to choose from, there's chocolate, vanilla, chai, matcha, and coconut acai.

Personally I like to mix the vanilla and the chai together, I do a scoop of each. It's de -licious, and I love that it has 25 grams of plant protein, that is pretty good protein, it has 26 vitamins and minerals, 6 grams of fiber, which we are all lacking, and over 85 superfoods, nutrients and plant -based ingredients.

Stay sharp and fuel yourself with kachava, go to kachava .com and use code morbid for 15 % off on their subscription for a limited time.

That's kachava, K -A -C -H -A -V -A dot com.

Code morbid for 15 % off.

When it comes to spending, sometimes it's out of sight, out of mind.

That daily coffee habit, those streaming subscriptions, out of sight, out of mind, and they add up fast without you really even noticing.

But RocketMoney can help you spot those patterns so that you can do something about them and keep more money in your pocket.

What is RocketMoney?

Well, it's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so that you can grow your savings.

What's awesome is that you can see all of your subscriptions in one place.

It's all consolidated, so you know exactly where your money is going.

Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in cancelled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features.

I am a user of Rocket Money and I have absolutely saved money.

The amount of double subscriptions I realized I had, like, why do I have so many?

Not anymore though, Rocket Money helped me.

Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.

Go to rocketmoney .com slash morbid today that's rocketmoney .com slash morbid rocketmoney .com slash morbid.

Donna and Jack plan to get married in a small ceremony on September 28th and then the days before it they took all the details to care of everything including applying for the marriage license getting the blood test you had to get back then you had to do a blood test. yeah on the morning of September 27th Donna met Jack at his house and the two went out to do some shopping before turning to Grady's apartment where Donna was planning to clean for the wedding reception so like he was gonna be involved in this it was gonna be they weren't running away to get married she was doing it all with him

when they arrived Grady wasn't home but he had instead gone down to a bar of course yeah where he stayed until 7 pm and drank 12 double whiskeys.

Holy yeah so 24 whiskeys.

Yeah so they went out to get some food for the reception and when they got home around 730 they found a very drunk Grady sitting on the couch his wheelchair was nowhere in sight Grady said he had left it out by the front door and someone stole it so they all were like oh shit so they volunteered to go out into the neighborhood and look for it.

As they were all leaving the house Grady said A -Actually, Jack, why don't you stay back with me?" Noooo.

And Donna recalled, Barbara and I went around into the metered parking lot out back, looking for the wheelchair.

We were just about halfway around and I heard a bang.

And then I heard a bang again immediately after, and I ran towards the house.

When I got there, Jack came stumbling out of the house, he was holding his chest in the middle.

Oh god… When he reached Donna he collapsed on the ground and began coughing out blood.

And they were just gonna get married.

And he's like her protector.

Yeah. And she - Donna said, it didn't seem real, it seemed like a joke.

I looked up and dad was standing on his knees, looking out the window, smiling at me.

What a son of a bitch. When she asked why he'd done it, he said, because I told you I would.

Well, he is cruel, isn't even the word. He's so far beyond.

He's a piece of absolute shit.

By then they could hear sirens coming.

When they arrived, Barbara explained.

so that stepmother explained what they believed happened and pointed them in the direction so she was like he did it like yeah she was like that's f -cked up um and Grady was sitting in a large overstuffed chair the guns sitting on an end table beside him and according to detective Joseph Stottlemyre when they were arresting officers entered the room he said take me I'm ready and he was arrested without incident okay the bullet entered Jack's chest on the left side and exited from his right shoulder.

He was rushed to the hospital by ambulance but he died a few hours later from his wounds.

Oh that's just awful.

That also escalated the crime from attempted murder to second degree murder.

Grady was taken to the county jail to await his arraignment.

Also I wonder why second degree.

I think it was because...

He said he was going to, that's very much first degree.

That's what I'm saying, I think that should have been the first degree, but I don't think it would have mattered either way, because in the meantime, a coroner's inquest was held to determine exactly what the fuck happened in that apartment.

And during the inquest, Donna explained that she and Jack had run off together a few weeks earlier and that her father had, quote, not been happy about the impending marriage, though he had consented to it.

During his testimony, Detective Stottlemyre recounted Grady's statement, telling the panel of the jury that Grady claimed he had heard talk in the street that Lane, which is Jack, had been saying nasty things about his daughter and he had taken all he could take, pulled out his 32 -caliber revolver, and shot Lane.

Yeah that's not how it happened.

No that's not it at all.

Grady was arraigned on a charge of third -degree murder and in early 1979 the case went to trial.

Over the course of several weeks a number of family members testified that Grady had made threats towards Jack and Donna and Donna herself testified that she had been with her when he purchased the gun.

However, several other witnesses, including Grady, indicated he had purchased the gun because Barbara had been receiving threatening phone calls.

Okay. Testifying in his own defense, Grady told the jury that Donna had changed since she started dating Jack.

She was probably happier.

She would sneak out of the house late at night and come home sometimes with beer on her breath.

Oh, honey. Okay, Glasshouse.

For real. Okay, Glasshouse.

Grady also claimed that once they were alone, Jack had come at him in a menacing fashion.

And he said, I don't know what came over him, but I was scared, I guess of him killing me.

I doubt it. Yeah, the projection here is wild.

As for all the contradictory evidence and witness statements, Grady claimed all those people, including the police, got together and fabricated their stories.

The police often do that.

That's a real dumb thing to say.

For sure, totally. On February 22, 1979 the jury retired for deliberation and returned a little over three hours later to find Grady guilty of third degree murder.

When the verdict was read, Grady began weeping at the defense table.

The verdict came as a surprise to many including the prosecutor who actually expected an acquittal with Tom because of sympathy for his condition.

However, while the verdict was like yippee, it also posed some complications.

primarily was there a jail or prison in Pennsylvania capable of accommodating someone in gradies condition for as long as 15 or 20 years and there was them after careful consideration the answer was no that's ridiculous yes in the end judge Thomas Harper did his best to find middle ground and sentence grady to 15 years of probation noting quote no prison in the state can accommodate a with his physical deformities." That's a quote.

After reading the sentence in court, the judge said, I'm not sure that a prison term would not be cruel and unusual punishment in this case.

Society doesn't require vengeance, and I felt a probationary term met the best interests for society and the defendant.

The prosecution, though disappointed with the sentence, didn't make a comment." I mean, that's a tough...

That it sucks. That's awful.

He killed a man. Yeah, like, it sucks that nobody was willing, nobody could...

Because that's the thing it's like you can't just figure it out.

And it's like nobody could accommodate him and that now he gets to be out and about.

Because I wonder what he would have required aside from like something wheelchair accessible.

I think that's enough.

That's it, right? I think that's enough for it.

And they didn't have anything.

They didn't have that.

Because I think it just wasn't a priority back then.

It's the 70s that like...

It's crazy. Yeah, anyway.

Now after Jack's murder, cold -blooded murder, his sister and other family members blamed Donna for his death and refused to allow her to stay with them any longer.

So she was allowed by court order, luckily, to return to Florida to live with her mother, Teresa, and Glen finally.

So that's great. But that's really shitty, like she didn't do anything wrong.

I know. And under the circumstances—I love this, too, because Teresa also insisted Donna bring Catherine with her.

And Grady did not put up a fight.

Oh wow. So they were able to go live with Theresa and Glen.

And those were the only two of the daughters left in his care right?

Because Deborah had moved out early on.

And she was older. Now throughout the 1980s though life for Glen, Theresa and the kids was a struggle.

After his tire business went under, Glen was forced to return to the carnival circus to perform his role as the world's smallest man.

And once again Theresa found herself kind of back where she started trying to figure stuff out.

Every year when the school year would come to an end, they would have to pack up the kids and join Glen on the road to help with responsibilities, it was seeming to like a pattern was repeating here because that's difficult.

Yeah, of course. And Glen was having difficulty because he was getting older.

Yeah. It was not easy.

For more than a decade, they had had a good marriage.

He had been a stable, very constant presence in Theresa's life and he had treated her better than any other man.

And he was a good father to the children.

But as the eighties came to a close, she was starting to feel a little restless in the marriage and she was kind of growing tired of being a constant helper and just going along for the ride, like having to go out on the road and doing all that stuff.

And she sees that she's doing the same pattern just with a nicer man, you know what I mean?

But it's still the same, like I'm not doing right by these kids by taking them on the road.

It's a tough life. You know?

And so in 1990, Theresa and Glenn divorced and she moved out, taking the kids with her.

It should've been a liberating moment because she spent her entire life waiting on, accommodating, following, having to be the assistant for men but she quickly found herself lonely because she's also a human being.

In response, she called up Grady.

This is where we get to, where I say, what?

What? Yeah. What? Here's the thing though, So he had separated from his wife and in the year since his conviction, I know.

Trust me, I know. I'm sorry, me and Maggie are literally like looking at each other, like what the fuck?

I agree. I'm with you on this.

I'm shocked. I am shocked.

I am dismayed. Grady had been on house arrest during this time because of the probation.

For 15 fucking years?

For murdering her daughter's fiance.

So he could not continue drinking the way he was on probation.

So he had scaled back and for the first time in many years he was pretty sober.

Okay. Um, so for Teresa, she thought she was seeing a glimpse at the Grady she knew when they were first dating.

Okay. Cause remember, she got kind of love bombed or not kind of.

She got very much loved bombed and she saw this amazing man who was like, and they had gone so far as to get married to very happily, had children very happily, and then it was like everything just imploded at once and then he became a heavy drinker and things got worse.

So for her, I'm just trying to like, I'm just trying to like not shit on Teresa because like, I feel like Teresa had such a shit life and such hardships that I, yeah, and I just feel for the, she was a family, you know what I mean?

Like I feel for these children and I feel for, I don't know, it's just, well and I think very sad situation.

I'm sure being in a relationship like that, like fucking alters your brain chemistry.

That's the thing. I'm trying not to like judge too hard for her because I'm like, I don't know what it's like to have been in that kind of turmoil.

And have children with somebody and like love them.

And have your children be in that term, like I can't fathom it, I really can.

So, while I don't understand this decision, I don't, I don't understand it, I can at least stand from back here and say, I don't know what your life feels like.

And I don't know what it felt for you just think you were seeing a hint of who you fell in love with at first. Yeah, you have to have empathy for the situation.

So that's why I'm like stepping back from my full blown judgment here and trying to look at it from like, you were seeing someone you fell in love with, or you thought you were, you know what I mean?

It's just a really fucked up sad situation.

I really feel just awful for these children, for really.

Especially Donna. That's the thing.

Well, that's the thing.

That's where I say, what the fuck?

That's just a level, for your father to kill your husband days before you're to marry him, not go to prison because of all the different circumstances, finally get away from him even though his family thinks that it's your fault, then you get to go live with your mother again and then you just get thrust right back into his.

That's the thing. Like Donna, all those kids I feel bad for, the person I feel most for, is Donna.

I feel so horrible for these kids.

Because that's just such like, trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma.

And it's like, it's compounding trauma.

It's also like, Teresa has kind of been molded since she was a child, truly, to bend the whims of men and accommodate them and kind of demean yourself for them.

Like not really think of yourself as an independent person who can do this.

And even in her moments of doing it, you know what I mean?

Like I feel like she always gets sucked back in with some man who's kind of taking the reins.

Yeah, I mean she's a victim.

And so she's a victim of her own right, but then it's like these children are a victim of these men And also their, unfortunately their mother's trauma of not being able to be without these men.

And it's like, so there's this awful, and that's what I meant when I was saying like, you can see that there was, Teresa wanted to break this cycle.

But there was something broken, she was struggling to fix.

And I think it just makes me really sad that like all of these young women And all of them were embroiled in this.

Because it's like, what the fuck?

Like, it's just like this guy is a monster.

It's just tragic. A straight up monster.

And it's like, Theresa wanted to break free.

I just, I'm like, I wanted her to break free with Glenn and those kids right off the jump.

I know. Because it's like, this would have been such a different story.

But Grady had to be cruel and he had to pull those kids back just to abuse them.

Right. Just to traumatize them.

And it's like, I don't think they would have lived with this much trauma if they had lived with Teresa.

So she goes, she goes back and does he, can he, step out again?

Like, so for, again, for Teresa, this whole thing is, and I'm just seeking from what she's saying is that she's saying she saw a glimpse of who she fell in love with.

She saw a sober Grady who she thought could, you know, be who he was.

So they were talking regularly over the phone Mhm.

Still, Teresa knew her children, especially Dona, disapproved of any of this, any kind of relationship with Grady.

So she wouldn't bring him up around them, but they knew.

Yeah. And also, why you even doing it?

If you know that they can't have a part of this.

It's like, why you even do it?

It's just not something you should be doing.

Yeah. Old habits die hard. Dona later said, I still wouldn't talk to him on the phone and she wouldn't talk about him with us.

Okay. Following her divorce from Glen, Theresa moved the kids to Okeechobee, Florida and again they're moving everywhere.

All the time. And soon Grady had relocated back to Gibsonton, Florida where he'd spent much of his life.

As he and Theresa got kind of reacquainted with one another, she encouraged the kids to spend time with him.

Okay. I can understand i'm sure like i can't understand it but i'm sure in her mind it was important for them to have their father and it's again something is broken here yes like teresa has dealt with things that and it's again it doesn't give anybody uh a pass to be a bad parent no and i think she would probably agree that this was one of the worst choices she could have made because honestly she does regret this choice later.

So there's that. And we have to remember that we're looking at this through a lens where we know so much about so much now that we didn't know about back then.

But again, it does not give a pass to put your children through this kind of stuff.

It just doesn't. And personally I cannot understand it.

I'm trying to look at it through a very logical, like totally kind of disconnected lens of like this is what she's thinking because this is what she said and I don't want to like shit all over her because she's been through a lot.

No, that's it. You can't understand, but you can empathize.

Exactly, I can understand, I can empathize with what she's gone through, but I cannot understand this parenting decision.

I simply cannot. I'm in awe right now.

And again, all the kids, and they're getting older now especially too, they're like becoming teenagers and stuff.

they're all reluctant to go down this road again, because, uh, you know, there was no what happens.

It was the murder of somebody's fiance.

There was that. From the creator of Think Twice, Michael Jackson, listened to the new audible original Final Thoughts, Jerry Springer.

Once known as the king of trash TV, Springer was the notorious talk show host whose wild daytime program transfixed audiences everywhere.

Join Springer's personal and professional life as the ratings soared and the reviews soured.

Here, revealing interviews about the choices we make and the regrets we may have. Listen to the new, trashy and true Audible -original final thoughts, Jeri Springer by going to audible .com slash Springer.

At first, they were like, no, we're not into this, but when they saw that Grady was trying to maintain sobriety and he was showing them that he was, and he was very open about the fact that he was very interested in rebuilding a relationship.

This is their father.

yeah again i have a good dad so i can't speak from somebody who has a shitty parent who has made steps to make the relationship better you know what i mean so actually i can't do that exactly so i don't want to speak from this like experience to say like i i don't understand how they can even yeah you know entertain this because again i didn't have i was lucky enough to not have this situation well i think when you have such a shitty parent like you all you want is for them to be better, and all you want, like abandonment issues are insane, like, I can't imagine what these kids must have felt.

They can paint every single part of your life.

And the rest of your life.

Yeah, and they do, and they do.

Like, I'm fine, I'm very well adjusted, but like, I still struggle with that shit.

I'm sure. So if your parent is actually making the effort, that's all you want, so of course, that's the thing.

You're gonna go along with it.

I mean obviously - I've just never been in a position of somebody making effort.

Well, yeah, there you go.

And I have people close to me, like very close to me who had awful relationships with their parents.

And then their parents tried to make it right later.

And it is a very conflicting, very hard thing for somebody even as an adult to deal with.

Because no matter what, no matter how shitty your parents are, they're still your parents in some weird part of you is always going to want them to be your parents.

Well, now they're always your parents, even your parents suck.

I think it's so hard to make those kinds of decisions like when somebody is making an effort because you're always their child.

Yeah, I can't imagine how that feels.

And you go back into the role of being the child and feeling the things that you felt when you were a child like wanting your parent, yes.

Because like biologically we all have, we want our parents to be our safe place.

Yes. And when they're not, I can't imagine how that throws you in to like, because again, I'm very fortunate enough that I do not have parents who made me feel unsafe.

Yeah, my and papa rock out loud.

They do, they rock out loud.

So it's like, I'm speaking from a place where I can't tell you how this feels and I know a lot of you listening are speaking can come from a place of the total opposite, where your parents weren't, and aren't, and couldn't be in your safe place and I'm sorry.

Cause I can't imagine how that feels and it can really transform how you make decisions.

It can color every part of your existence for the rest of your life.

I'm just thinking of how therapy was not a thing back then and not really at all.

I would be so different if I hadn't done years and years of therapy.

That's the thing, and we're adding on again.

I know people I really love and care about who have gone through dealing with parents coming back and trying to build a relationship and really putting in effort, but those parents also didn't kill their spouse.

That's a whole other layer of it.

That's a whole layer on to this where I'm like - you had grief into it.

Yes. And blame and...

And you took someone I loved from me.

Like quite literally.

Like you literally took someone I loved and that's where I say like Teresa how could you ask them to do this?

That's the thing with Donna it's just...

How can you ask her to do this?

And again your her mother she's gonna wanna please you.

Mm hmm and you're supposed to protect her?

It's like and that's where the safe space gets snipped for a minute.

Cuz then she has no safe space.

Cuz your mother shouldn't be asking you to to do this.

Yeah, I also think it's probably, and I'm sure people listening feel this way, it's so, again, I can't understand, but I can have empathy, but it is hard to have empathy in a situation like this.

When you've got, I haven't even gone through something similar to that.

Exactly. At all, but like, when somebody wrongs their child and you're a child who's been wronged, you're just like, God dammit!

Well that's a thing, and I have like, I always have to pull myself back a little bit because I get real fucking mad when people mistreat their kids because you're not even a mistreated kid.

I know. I think of my kids and you think of your kids.

And like, frankly, like just for everybody who thinks that me and Elena have a weird relationship, Elena's my protector, like genuinely like your people's protector and the other people in your life who have gone through similar things, you're their protector.

So you're like, don't wrong that.

I'm like, I'm going to fuck you up.

Maybe worth his kid.

That's why you feel that way.

Cause, cause you're the safe space?

Yes. Oh, thank you.

I appreciate. No, you are a, that's what I think.

strive to be for my little - You are.

Goobins in my life, and you are you are one of my little goobins in my life and I think of like who wronged you, and I want to - This has become therapy.

What happened? What happened?

But yeah, I think it just he seemed like he was trying to get sober and he was doing his best with that, and then he was making it clear to them that he wanted rebuild a relationship and that he felt some kind of some kind of regret he had remorse so they softened okay but still genuine or not he couldn't wipe it wipe away the lifetime worth of horrible abusive violent horrific traumatizing memories you just can't and Donna says I don't think I ever started loving my father like a dad again which is very sad.

Well you know what though it is very sad that like she didn't never get that ability did he he wasn't her dad well that's that he took I hope she knows that that is not her inability to love him again it was his inability to be a lovable person right he never was a father so I give that to her how can you love somebody like a father when they're not a father to you who's never a father and when they take away somebody who finally did protect him wanted to protect you right like so that I really hope that like Donna and their kids like know that they have done nothing wrong in this situation and that they were totally valid

in their feelings and their hesitation here.

Now, not long after Grady moved back to Florida, he and Theresa got remarried, which seemed to have been his goals since that first phone call Theresa made to him after her divorce.

And unfortunately, once Grady got what he wanted, he began sliding right back into his old ways.

That's tragic. That is truly tragic for everyone involved.

And I'll say, fortunately for some of the children, all of them had moved out by then.

Except for Glenny, who was a teenager.

Okay. And he's not Grady's child, so I can only imagine how Grady felt about that.

Exactly. But soon enough, even the kids that were out of the house were starting to notice that their father wasn't very around very often.

And they would call or visit and he wouldn't be there.

And he'd be spending time at bars again.

He was out for days.

And eventually Teresa did admit to Donna that Grady was fully back in his old ways like spending all their money at bars, just right back.

Right back to it. And because his temper came right back, the frustrations, the anger, the rage, she was abusing her, he was abusing like like it was bad.

One night in late 1991 after a night out drinking he returned home and demanded that Teresa bring him a drink in bed so Teresa did but she handed him the drink and she said this is the last drink I'm gonna get you.

Uh -huh. And in response he grabbed a handful of her hair and yanked her back on the bed hard enough to pull clumps of it from her go fuck to do remember to she's horribly afraid of this man of course she is he's beaten the shit out of her for years which makes it worse that she is now in this position again because like I wish you had stayed away from him yeah because like he has gone most of his life also keeping that upper body strength so he is I didn't even not only is he a frightening and very rage like like raging guy, he's very, very strong.

And when you're, you have crazy upper body strength, you can do a lot of damage.

Yeah, of course. Now after this whole incident happened.

Theresa felt that feeling she hadn't felt in years, which is I'm fucking tired of this.

Yeah. She'd had enough.

And so getting, she said this whole, that whole thing was a mistake.

I should have never got, she says that I should have never gotten back together with him.

And she said, But now I am facing the consequences of my actions.

Oh, God. Get out of there.

She thought about leaving again, but by then she didn't have the same resources or willpower that she'd had the last time she left him.

And he had been using all their money at bars.

So she stayed and endured the abuse, which was inevitably followed by the sense of guilt for having fallen right back into Grady's trap.

It's a cycle. Exactly.

By November it really shows you how too scary the abuse cycle is yeah and that like people will go back into it mm -hmm just because of how deeply rooted the abuse cycle is it's like really scary and really sad the fact that we treat each other this way and the fact that like we treat people we supposedly love this way as like I it's the side we're the only species we gotta get it together I say that every time like we gotta get it fucking together.

I do like this kind of shit pisses me off so much i'm like you don't have to be this way and you're certain you do not have to be a fucking cruel piece of shit to the people who look to you for protection and to be a safe place.

No. So by November 1992 life with Grady was fucking unbearable for Teresa and Glennie.

Despite his attempts at sobriety a few years earlier he had just he was fully back fully back to being abusive, cruel, an alcoholic, um the same man who had beaten her while her husband watched helplessly by the way and then had threatened to murder her son Glenn when he was a child.

Yep uh so that yeah and now that same son is living under the roof with him yeah.

She was desperate to get out of the house and away from him but it seemed like no matter what she did or where she looked there was just no options for escape in the end it wasn't Teresa who took charge of the situation.

It was Glennie. But 17 year old Glenn Junior, I knew it was headed He resolved to do something about his stepfather, and he wanted to save his mother.

That November, Glenn called up the toughest person he could think of which was 17 year old Chris Wyant.

Even though he was just 17, an occasional sideshow performer had a very long criminal record, and Glennie was certain Chris would know what to do about his stepfather.

And remember this kid Glenn has watched his mother be beaten by this man his entire life.

while his father was held down with a shotgun.

His entire life. Just saying.

I don't know what happens, but that's what I have in my mind right now.

You can't, again, no one will ever say that murder is the correct end game for anything.

It's not a good choice.

So, if you take that from what we're saying, then like, you didn't listen.

You're clearly not listening.

But, no one's saying that, but what this is a clear show of, evidence of is, you cannot beat someone down their entire life.

You just can't, like people explode.

You just can't do that.

You can't treat someone like this for their whole life, as we saw with Ken McElroy, that whole thing.

You can't do that. Cause you do lose, people lose their humanity for you because you have treated them subhuman their whole life.

Like, you know what I mean?

It's like this kid wanted to protect his mom and it's like really sad and he didn't know any other option and it's like, obviously he made the wrong decision.

Right, but fuck. The whole thing is just like goddamn.

He's broken down. It's really sad.

On November 26th, Glenie and Chris met at a local park where Glenie gave his friend the details of everything that was happening and said, can you just help me?

Help me end this. The price would later be disputed in court, but Chris initially told Glenie he would take care of the situation for 300 bucks.

ooh in the end he would be paid $1 ,500 uh regardless of the actual price though Chris Chris did agree to take care of Grady and Glennie agreed to pay him okay a few days later Glennie would try to call the whole thing off and get his money back so you can tell he just he was desperate and then he was like fuck I shouldn't do this but by then Chris had already bought a gun and spent the rest of the money so the deal went forward has planned, on the evening of November 29th.

Glennie broke down and told his mother about the arrangement.

Which also shows you that this, he has remorse.

Already. He hasn't even done it and he's like, I fucked up.

But you can tell the desperation in this kid because he's just like, to break down and tell his mom.

He's just like, I don't know what to do.

Like, I just wanted to help you.

This is heartbreaking.

To his surprise though, his mother didn't express a sense of shock or attempt to call the police to put an end to the whole thing.

Instead, she and Glennie left the house quietly, leaving Grady asleep in his chair watching television.

A few hours later, around 11 p .m. Chris Wyant slipped into the trailer through the back door they'd left open.

Having been there a few times, he knew the layout, so he tried to go silently and be quiet, but he made a noise, and he woke Grady up.

He began shouting at Chris to get out and never come back, and Chris went back a few steps into the kitchen like he was gonna leave, But then he aimed the aimed the gun and fired and the bullet hit Grady in the back of the head and killed him instantly Wow Then just to be sure he fired two more shots both hit Grady in the head just a few centimeters from the first wound With Grady now dead.

Chris ran out the back door and fled into the night From where they were sitting in the neighbor's living room.

Glenee and Teresa could hear the gunshots Glenny just next door.

Yeah, they're just next door Glennie even remembered looking out the window and seeing Chris run from the trailer.

And he said when he saw him fleeing the scene, he knew the terror they'd been living with, that his mother had been living with for decades, had finally come to an end and that they would not have to worry about the lobster boy again.

Wow. That was what Glennie said.

To detectives at the scene, things in the house were immediately suspicious, obviously.

The killer had clearly entered through an unlocked door.

Nothing was missing.

And so they were like, this wasn't a robbery, this was clearly a targeted assassination.

A spokesperson for the Sheriff's office told reporters the next day, we've got some leads but we're not saying much. So they were being cagey with the press and it's likely because they already knew what happened in the Stiles House.

And they didn't want to let out any details before they were ready.

By the time they finished taking Glenn Jr.'s statement that night, they more or less had a pretty accurate understanding of how things had unfolded from his contract and Chris Wyant through the murder.

The following morning, they arrested Teresa Glenn Jr. and Chris Wyant on a charge of first -degree murder based on the statements of Teresa and her son.

So they basically just – they just admitted it?

Wow. The trial for all three began in July of the next year with the defense attorney arguing that Teresa and Glenn had been pushed to the point of murder after years of domestic violence.

At the time, the domestic violence aspect of the case, which was known as Batterd -Wife syndrome, um was relatively new and pretty novel but it turned out they wouldn't get a chance to try it because the judge ordered that self -defense cannot be argued if it's a contract murder yeah the case was further disrupted a few days later when a mistrial was declared because there was issues with the jury and the prosecution moved for a retrial it turned out that they wouldn't end up they would end up waiting for like over a year for their trial to start um and that's when they were all being tried for first

-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder, which could carry the death penalty.

But the prosecution didn't have any interest in pursuing that.

Under the circumstances, Chris Wyant had pretty limited defense since he had been identified by his two codefendants.

In late January, 1994, he was found guilty of second degree and guilty of conspiracy to commit first -degree murder.

and he was sentenced to 27 years in prison for each charge.

But it was gonna be served concurrently.

He was released from prison in 2009 after serving a minimum of 15 years and he has lived out of the spotlight.

Okay, just out he goes.

Having been ordered for a new trial though, Teresa once again offered a self -defense argument.

Her attorney, Arnold Levine told the jury, "'She honestly believes she had no other alternative "'but to participate in this terrible act.' In response to her defense, the judge ruled that the self -defense argument could be allowed. But only if Teresa was willing to admit the role she played in hiring her husband's killer, which she did.

The stipulations struck a lot and the legal—a lot of people in the legal community as like weird and unusual.

Law professor Steven Goldstein told a reporter, I don't understand why she has to testify to it like saying that whether she testifies to her role or not, it wouldn't change the outcome.

Right. I don't understand that either.

Why are we making her say she has like this much of a role in it?

Yeah. Especially when she really didn't.

Yeah. She was just told after the fact.

She didn't do anything to stop it.

Right but I mean she didn't go out and hire someone.

But regardless of whether it was an appropriate stipulation, she did confess her role and offer the domestic abuse stories as her motive.

All of which were backed up by testimony from her children and others who'd known her over the years.

All of them knew how he was with her.

I mean this is clearly an abusive man.

and he was literally on parole for killing his daughter's fiance.

I was gonna say, I mean, hello.

In the end, her defense was moderately successful.

Although the jury did find her guilty, they all agreed the circumstances warranted a less charge, a lesser charge, and she was convicted of manslaughter and conspiracy to commit first degree murder.

It was the first time in Florida's history that a jury was allowed to consider self -defense in a case of contract murder.

Wow, so this is like historical?

That's remarkable, yeah.

After the verdict was read, the prosecution agreed that it was a successful compromise, calling it, quote, a fair resolution of a very difficult issue.

In August, a judge sentenced Teresa to 12 years in prison for her role in the murder followed by five years of probation.

And she was released from prison in 2000.

Wow. A few months later, Glen Jr. was offered a plea deal in which he would confess to everything in exchange for the same sentence as his mother, but apparently Teresa insisted he reject the and go to trial.

Ugh, I don't know about that.

As a result he went on trial for first -degree murder and conspiracy to commit first -degree murder and after a very brief trial they deliberated for just over an hour and found him guilty on both charges.

Yeah. And sentenced him to 25 years to life for murder.

Yeah, why wouldn't you take a plea deal?

Yeah. And when there's a charge of conspiracy and like capital murder and all that, or, uh, not capital murder.

Yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't take that deal.

But sadly according to the Florida Department of Corrections, Glenn Jr. died on March 5th, 2014...

...but they didn't release any details regarding his death.

Oh, that's so sad. I know.

So that is, that's it.

That's how it all shakes out.

Wow, that's tragic from start to finish.

They're out of jail, but Glenn Jr. passed away.

Was he born with the condition?

No. Because he wasn't his child.

No, because he was Glenn's son.

I didn't know if it was complications from that maybe or something.

They never released his death.

That's really sad. It's a really sad, sad, sad situation from beginning to end.

It just shows how dangerous it can be to...

I hope everyone has been able to move forward from it in some way, shape, or form.

And there's been some growth somewhere.

Yeah. And I hope those kids have been able to move forward from it because, like, fuck.

Like that's... when I think it was when I think it was Donna or Deborah one of them said that like they have no happy memories from childhood.

I'm like that is horrible that's so so sad.

Like how and Donna loses the love somebody she's in love with her soon to be husband.

Mm -hmm and then had to be around that man again and Glenn was like Glennie lost his adult life yeah because obviously again he made a poor decision yeah no childhood and then lost his whole life after.

Like there's just no winners in this situation at all.

He was trying to protect his mom.

Well that's what breaks my heart is like again, I don't think I have to keep saying it.

No. We're not condoning murder or a contract murder in any way, shape or form.

But like you just see the desperation in that kid, especially the way he acted afterwards where one he tried to stop it.

He tried to stop it all.

And two, he went right to his mom and was like I did something bad and like I want to stop this.

It's like how desperate she was to not do anything to stop it.

Fuck that is a really sad case, dude.

Yeah bum me out and like away I can't describe.

Yeah it's just... I need to do something different for my next one.

Yeah cuz like this really bummed me out.

We have listener tales coming up so that's good.

There you go. You guys will soothe.

You'll be like bomb on my soul.

Yeah and Nicholas will be will be on our next listener That's soothing to my fucking soul maybe he'll be in a better mood.

He better be he was reading me for filth.

But he'll he'll make me feel better.

Man oh man I know go touch grass everyone go tell if you have a good parent tell them how much you appreciate them for not being so fucking terrible yeah and go like if you have if you are a parent or if you just like love a child in your life go tell them that go be awesome to them go go be a safe place for them Can I go donate to domestic violence causes?

Yeah, and if you have parents that suck ass, I'm sorry.

Yeah, thank you. I'm sorry.

Mine didn't suck that bad.

That sucks. Yeah. And I'm your parent.

But you know what? Okay.

If you're listening and your parents suck, I'm your parent now.

You're one of the goobins.

It's cool to know that you can break the cycle.

I think that's a very empowering thing to lean on if you want to.

and it shouldn't, it's not easy.

So if it doesn't feel easy, that's okay.

And it shouldn't be up to you.

But sometimes it just works that way.

People are gonna people, you know?

So there we go. Goddamn.

Well we hope you keep listening.

Yeah we hope you do, we hope you.

And we hope you keep it weird. Just not so weird that you abuse people you love.

Keep your fucking hands to yourself.

Yeah. Stop hitting people.

don't get married if you don't like the person.

It's, you know, we all have free will.

Don't hurt people. Do good with your free will.

Gosh, darn it. God damn.

done. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

Hey weirdos, if Asha and Elena's episode on Ken McElroy left you wondering how someone could become so cruel, manipulative, and untouchable, you'll want to hear my psychological breakdown of this case on my podcast, Killer Psyche.

I examined the twisted mindset behind McElroy's reign of terror, how he exploited fear, use charm as a weapon and turned an entire town into his victims. Understanding what made him tip is exactly the kind of insight I bring on Killer Psyche, where I use my experience profiling criminals for the FBI to uncover what drives people like Ken McElroy to become predators.

So if you're curious about the mind behind the mayhem, join me for an inside look at the psychology of a man who got away with everything until he didn't.

Follow Killer Psyche on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[The Tragic Life and Death of Lobster Boy: The Grady Stiles Jr. Story]-[Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.]

📋 Summary

The Life and Death of Lobster Boy: A Cycle of Abuse

The Roots of Cruelty

A Pattern of Victimization

The Murder of Jack Lane

The Final Act

Legal Consequences and Legacy

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript