Hey weirdos, it's Ash.
Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery Plus.
It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad -free listening and early access to new episodes.
So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today.
You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. cost. Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar.
Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, and new ways of thinking.
Listening can lead to positive changes in your mood, your habits, and ultimately, your overall well -being.
Audible has an incredible selection of over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and Audible Originals, all in one easy app.
Find the genres love and discover new ones explore bestsellers new releases plus thousands of included audiobooks podcasts and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time right now i am listening to the southern book club's guide to slaying vampires by grady hendrix and i just cannot get enough of it i never want to pause it i'm literally like loading the dishwasher listening to it on the treadmill listening to it constantly it's so awesome i love being able to listen anytime anywhere i want to and there's more to imagine when you listen Sign up for a free 30
-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free.
Visit audible .com slash morbid.
Life doesn't happen bi -weekly, so why should payday?
The money that you earn can be in your hands today with Earn It.
Earn It is an app that gives you access to your pay as you work, up to $150 per day with a max of $7 .50 between paydays.
Just download the Earn It app and verify your paycheck, then access up to $150 a day as you work and leave an optional tip.
Any money you access plus tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck.
I feel like you should have your money as you earn it, and Earn It makes that possible.
You want to go out for a little date night and spend your money.
You know, sometimes things pop up unexpectedly.
I would hate this for you, but you might have to go to the vet and drop some cash there.
You need the cash when you need the cash.
Download Earn It today, spelled E -A -R -N -I -N, in the Google Play or Apple App Store.
When you download the Earn It app, type in Morbid under Podcast when you sign up.
It will really help the show.
Morbid under podcast. Earn In is a financial technology company, not a bank.
Cash outs are based on your available earnings.
Standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees.
Option to expedite your transfer for free, tips are voluntary and don't affect the service.
See the cash out user agreement for details.
Service is not available in all states.
Hey weirdos, I'm Alayna.
I am Ash. And this is Morbid.
i'm just a fuck boy in these intros these days just a little fuck boy your little tiny fuck boy oh boy oh brother um what's what's going on what's going on i had a calzone with milky way in it for lunch had dessert for lunch dessert it was delightful yeah it was you know what it was delightful and what was also delightful is that um although we've been having some like weird vibes we've talked to you guys about it a little bit yeah like the doppelganger situation situation the tv falling on my head slow motion falling on it yeah just my stew mocker moment your stew mocker moment it's like my casual
brain damage it's felt a little off and we've all felt it and we've all just kind of like been like oh like what is this i don't like it and so we were like all right i'm gonna clean this morning i'm gonna vacuum i'm gonna like make sure everything's decluttered maybe that's part of it but then mikey was like wait a second our gal rachel stavis who is like this amazing out of this world's exorcist we had her on you she's amazing go listen to that episode if you haven't because she's delightful she heard that we were like having some weird energy and weird vibes and we kind of talked to her about it
a little bit and she sent us a lovely little care package of items that will help us kind of like cleanse the space and like make the energy a little better.
So Mikey lit some incense and just was like you know what let's get Rachel vibes in here.
Yeah. I'm not kidding you.
Something happened.
No it's so true. The energy in this room is different and I'm usually pretty skeptical about some of this stuff like I'll end up being like oh I don't know like maybe it's just like I'll say emo I'm not kidding you it feels like a totally different room because I was not here this morning when you guys did that yeah and then when I walked in I was like wait a second you're like what's different feels light as fuck in here yeah like Mikey was like it feels like it feels still yeah it does feel still whereas before it felt very racing it felt staticky yeah like everything was like it felt like snow
on a tv screen like that it was like irritating all the time and i felt like it was like something just didn't feel right so we just need to say like rachel stavis man i'm telling you she knows her shit she's so fucking cool follow her on tiktok yeah follow her and all the things yeah but she's magical and she did something so thanks rachel thank you you're a fucking pal thanks a lot rachel i'm telling mom i'll tell everybody i'll tell fucking everybody i'm telling everybody uh so speaking of you know british accents kind of i think it's scottish but uh we're gonna be talking about scotland yard
here so that works so we got an old -timey murder let's fucking go um this is one i had heard about before and some people may have heard about it is the murder of julia martha thomas oh um it's a wild one though and it's one we have not covered somehow oh which is shocking i'm shocked is it like an 1800s vibe it is an 1800s vibe oh wow so this was dubbed later in the press the richmond murder it captivated londoners for months and the killer kate webster's trial and execution eventually eventually uh became something of a public spectacle and you said kate yes kate a woman a woman and in victoria era england very
few people even believed that a woman was capable of murder i believe that but one as vicious as this one and one that um also involved a lot of uh abuse of a corpse i will say afterwards they definitely didn't believe a woman could do that Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. So given that and the absolute viciousness of the entire thing, the Richmond murder remains one of London's most notorious murders of the late 19th century.
Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like, the title itself, like the Richmond murder, like makes me feel like I know it, but you're talking about like a couple details and I'm not.
It's not hitting you?
No. Maybe it will. Maybe halfway through I'll scream if it does.
So let's talk about the victim first. Okay.
Julia Martha Thomas.
So as is the case with a lot of these like Victorian era cases, we don't have a ton of information about Julia's life, you know, before she became a victim of this crime.
The 1800s of it all.
Exactly. But Julia Martha Thomas was born in England circa 1823.
According to Elliot O'Donnell, who we will link the source in the show notes, she was well known by neighbors to be distinctly eccentric.
I like that. Which is fun.
That is fun. who doesn't want to be known as distinctly eccentric yeah i really love that in a world full of people who are not be distinctly eccentric distinctly eccentric especially back then too to be known as that like hell yeah that's how you know you're doing it right i feel like we need merch that says especially back then especially back then i feel like we say that a lot we do yeah just especially back then yeah um so she so o'donnell wrote that she was possessed of of a remarkably excitable temperament, frequently getting vexed and put out for no apparent cause.
And she is still remembered as very much a tartar to her servants.
A tartar? That doesn't sound good.
It's not. So in England, tartar actually means someone who is domineering, bossy, irritable, you know.
It's not sauce. It's not a compliment.
So, again, she was known, people liked her who knew her.
It was just the people who worked for her that were like not a great employer.
Okay. She was twice widowed. Oh, that's sad.
And since the passing of her second husband in 1873, Julia lived in a small house adjacent to a pub in Richmond.
Oh, hell yeah. Which was a middle -class neighborhood in southwest London.
And she had spent most of her adult life as a schoolteacher, actually.
Cool. Despite a reputation for high expectations and a pretty quirky character, character again she was super well liked by others she was never lonely after being widowed particularly with the pub patrons next door like people liked her and also without a husband or when she retired didn't have a job to attend to she began kind of indulging her interest in traveling and just going different places hell yeah yeah like she never liked to stay in one place too long she loved to see other places she went by herself like she was yeah she loved it and it was later said that her friends and relatives
would sometimes remain for weeks and even months in complete ignorance of her whereabouts so she just wouldn't tell anyone either she would just off she would go that's not great doesn't help later don't do that doesn't help uh kind of plays into kate's favor a little bit later but in the at the time she's just like i'm taking off for a little while i've no one to be responsible to i'm not tied down that does sound kind of fun right imagine just disappearing and like nobody knows where you are but like Like you're just on vacay.
Yeah. You're just on vacay.
Like it's okay. You're on vacay.
It's fine. And Julie's like, hell yeah.
I like that. Now, outside of all this and her eccentricities, Julia was remembered by most for her commitment to appearances.
Oh, honey. With, quote, fondness for dress and jewelry.
Oh, honey. She made the most of her modest means and was often seen wearing gold jewelry and rings as well as fine clothes.
Okay, sister. Yeah.
This was not because she was wealthy.
She really wasn't wealthy.
Yeah. Yeah. She wasn't like, you know, the poorest of the poor.
She wasn't the wealthiest of the wealthy.
She was like solid middle class.
But she spent her money on good quality shit.
She did. And O'Donnell actually refers to it in the book as an obvious anxiety to be thought genteel.
Well, you know, I'm just kidding.
Well, you know, again, she was solidly middle class, but it was very important to her that she be perceived as highly respectable, acceptable despite her reliance on the income of like taking lodgers in her house that kind of thing she went out of her way to give the impression that she had wealth she had class dress for the job you want not the job you have exactly she just liked I I don't have to be rich to look rich is what she was saying you don't I don't have to spend all that money to look rich and it's like good job Julia exactly so although she was generally thought of positively by her
neighbors, like we said, and her friends and people who knew her at the pub and all that.
She didn't go to the pub.
They just knew her from, like, outside and stuff.
Because she lived right there.
Yeah. Julia's reputation as a demanding employer with high standards made it a little difficult for her to find long -term domestic workers.
Actually, records indicate that she hired a lot of servants over the years.
Only one maid was known to have stayed employed by her for any real length of time.
Damn. The rest of them just gone.
They just couldn't hack it.
Yeah. Because of this gnarly track record, in January 1879, Julia found herself yet again looking for a new maid.
And this is when her friend, Lucy Loader, mentioned, hey, I actually just recently came in contact with this young Irish woman named Kate Webster.
Not Kate. And Kate Webster had done a few days' labor for Lucy, her friend there, and was looking for long -term employment in the area.
So she was like, this seems perfect.
She was great for what I needed her for.
Yeah, 10 out of 10 recommend.
end. There you go, which like, oops, you should not have. Zero out of ten, looking back.
This is one of those things where you like you like vouch for somebody and then you're like, fuck.
We have all been there.
So Kate Webster was born actually Catherine Lawler.
Huh. Which should give you a little idea of like, huh, we have an alias.
Yeah, we don't love that.
What's going on there?
What a fun last name.
Lawler. Lawler. that'd be good at the group chat she was born circa 1849 in killann county wexford northern ireland okay from the moment of her arrest later in life uh the authorities found it very difficult to verify a lot about what webster told them of her backstory and personal history mysterious squirrely she was a liar a liar who lied mysterious squirrely she was a liar liar Liar.
According to Kate, she grew up in a Roman Catholic farming family and claimed to have married a sea captain by the name of Webster while still in her teens.
And she said the couple had four kids.
Where are they? Where they are, the world may never know.
Well, it's so easy to say that you married a sea captain because he ain't never going to be around.
He's gone. He's at sea.
He's a sea captain.
Where's your husband, the sea captain?
At sea. On a boat, bitch. He's in the sea.
He's not a land captain, okay?
Idiot. So, well, sure, could be true.
Maybe. Maybe she married a sea captain named Captain Webster.
Who's to say? He had four kids.
Captain George Glass.
But O'Donnell and many historians suggested it was much more likely that she assumed the name Webster to evade the police, in that it was just one of her numerous aliases that she would have during her life.
She didn't have many of those.
Fun. So, Webster's criminal career appears to have started while she was in her teens, actually, when she claims to have been married to the sea captain named Webster.
She was arrested for larceny and served a short prison sentence in her teens.
Oh, wow. Upon her release, she left Ireland and traveled to Liverpool, where she just continued a life of crime, particularly robbing lodging houses, which she became really good at.
Oh, God. It was actually something like if she had a LinkedIn today, she would be like, I'm actually skilled.
robbing lodging houses.
1815 to present. Yeah, killing it.
She really knew how to rob a lodging house.
Wow. That's terrible.
But you wish she had just continued in that career path if she was going to stay in a life of crime because what she does do is pretty fucking awful.
It sounds like it. But as a woman, especially at that time, Kate was far less likely to be suspected or accused of crimes like that.
And her remarkable confidence confidence and her practiced ability to lie like a rug made her really good at being a thief.
Like she was the best thief.
In most cases, Kate would just present herself at a boarding house and she would say, hi, I'm interested in a room.
And they'd be like, absolutely.
Let me give you a tour.
She would be given a tour of the building.
And then as soon as the landlord turned their back, she would steal whatever she could.
Fantastico. Just shove it in all her petticoats and that That would be it.
She'd just leave. Great.
Yeah. She got her tour and she'd just say, oh, you know what?
Actually, I don't want to take this room.
And then she'd just leave with all the shit.
And then they'd have no record of her ever being there.
Exactly. Because she's just taking the tour.
Diabolical. In the event that she couldn't steal anything during the tour, like if the landlord was like, yeah, keep an eyes on her.
Or like, I'm not turning my back on you.
This isn't a visual podcast, but Elena just like looked up.
I stared at you. Yeah, like put her face down and looked up with her eyes.
It was very intense.
That's what the landlord would do.
But if she couldn't do that, she would accept the room for like a day or two and just rob everything in the house.
And she would rob the other lodgers.
Shit. And then just flee the house with all the shit.
I need to know more about Kate's childhood.
Yeah, Kate's a lot.
I wish I did. Kate is a lot.
And the scheme worked well for a while, but eventually Kate was arrested again for larceny in 1867 and ended up being sentenced to four years in prison.
That's a long time in prison, especially in 1800s prison.
Yeah. Okay, let's take a poll.
How weird does it feel to be called someone's fiancé, right?
The first time you hear it, you do like a double take.
Your heart kind of flutters.
And before you know it, you go from, let's just enjoy this moment to, we're planning a fall wedding.
That's where Zola comes in.
Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place and and have fun along the way.
From free planning tools like a budget tracker, super necessary, and website, to a venue and vendor discovery tool that matches you with your dream team, everything on Zola is designed to make your wedding journey as easy as possible.
And with invites that can be completely customized and a wedding registry packed with gifts you actually want.
Zola takes you from save our date to thanks so much without breaking a sweat.
From getting engaged to getting married, read, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place.
Start planning at Zola .com.
That's Z -O -L -A dot com.
Happy wedding! In 1920, a broke immigrant in Boston became one of America's richest, most infamous men practically overnight.
He swindled the modern equivalent of a quarter billion dollars and etched his name into history as the mastermind behind one of the most notorious scams ever, the Ponzi scheme.
Hosted by Maya Lau and featuring award -winning comedian and actor Sebastian Maniscalco.
This is Easy Money, The Charles Ponzi Story, an Apple original podcast produced by Atwill Media.
Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.
So while she was sentenced to four years in prison, it looks like she might have only served a little more than three.
Overcrowding. Yeah, you know, and then when she made her way up to London in early 1871, shit didn't really change because years later after she was arrested for the crime she will be arrested for, Kate claimed that upon arriving in London she had every intention of leaving her criminal ways behind her and making an honest living.
Bet, as the kids would say.
Indeed. Bet. Indeed.
But she even took up the first of several jobs as a domestic worker to just get on that straight and narrow.
Wow, Kate. She had hope.
But it was during this period of her life that Kate would later claim that things started to go wrong again.
It's crazy how, like, the world just works against you like that.
Yeah, she's like, it wasn't me.
It wasn't me robbing people.
Everything just went wrong.
According to Kate, she was working for a family in Notting Hill.
And while she was there, she met a man who convinced her, and apparently romance, this man convinced her to leave her employers and come work for him.
Oh. Oh. And she claimed, I was induced by him to go live with him at his house and he seduced me while there.
And I became in the family way with my little boy.
Where is he? Well, he's around.
Oh. Don't worry about that.
But Kate's version of events paints her entirely as a victim of seduction who, after becoming pregnant, was just thrown out of the house by the boy's father.
Oh, poor Kate. Here's the thing.
That could have absolutely happened.
Yeah, probably. 100%.
There's no reason to believe that that couldn't happen, but it's just that her history as a consummate liar and criminal makes a lot of historians wonder whether it might have been a little more complicated than that, perhaps.
Yeah, because Kate do be lying.
She do be, but whatever the case, Kate did give birth to a baby boy on April 19th, 1874, so she was telling the truth about that.
Okay, that's good. And she ended up finding lodging in Kingston, where she was once again passing herself off as that wife of that sea captain.
I don't know if he exists.
Our elusive sea captain.
And she was getting by on whatever food and small amounts of money were offered to her by neighbors.
All right. Yeah. So at the same time, Kate was known to have been repeatedly visited by a man with the last name of Strong.
Ooh, he's Strong. And he was, among other things, rumored to have been the boy's father.
i thought you were gonna say strong he was rumored to be strong he was also thought to be possibly kate's one -time partner in crime oh so later in her statement to the police she claimed her return to crime was just purely out of necessity like she didn't want to she alleged quote i became very impoverished forsaken by him and committed crimes for the purpose of supporting myself and my child which is sad if that's the case absolutely and you can kind of see like yeah i could see how that would be the case it was i don't know oh okay maybe i'm sure it was part of the case yeah but you think she
also i think she was also just a criminal yeah sometimes criminals go criminal they are so by this time the authorities had definitely become aware of what they termed kate's first long -term swindle oh um but unfortunately they also found out about her her all of her aliases which were among others web webster gibbs gibbons and lawler damn she's got all of them and the details of this long con i we could not find dave searched high and low we can't find the details because obviously she wasn't running around telling everybody and it was wicked long ago it was wicked i thought you were gonna say
and it was a wicked long con i mean it was a long con it was wicked long ago it wasn't wicked but also so the criminal activity did result in whatever she was doing to prepare for this long con or starting this long con yeah it did result in a third arrest on 36 counts of robbery so a few so a wicked long con kid yeah and in may 1875 she was sentenced to 18 months in prison Wow.
For that wicked long con, that's not a wicked long sentence.
Exactly. Now, Kate was released after serving her full sentence of 18 months, but unfortunately, it was a short -lived freedom for her because after just a few months, she was again arrested for robbery and sentenced to 12 months in prison this time.
Oh, goody. This time when she was released, she went to live with her son's father, who she was then referring to as Mr. Mitchell.
So everyone's got aliases.
All righty. This was a man who lived in Teddington.
So I don't know who Mr. Strong was, but he wasn't the baby's dad or not.
Now this guy is. So I don't know.
But in the year that followed, Kate managed to keep her criminal activities at least to a minimum.
Kate. But this was in part because she started a romantic relationship with another local man.
And it was through this new relationship that this is when Kate met Lucy Loader, who at the time employed the mother of Kate's then boyfriend, the local man.
Okay. So many key players.
Exactly. Now, when Julia complained that she was unable to find and keep good living help, Lucy said Kate was Lucy Loader, who said Kate Webster.
and she said she had actually come to her attention Lucy's attention through her own maid Mrs. Crease.
Okay. It was all very Colonel Mustard Miss Scarlet Professor Plum up in here.
Yeah but she's getting people to give her like a good.
Yeah. A good reference.
Yeah exactly apparently she does good work so there's that but Kate started her employment with Julia as a quote unquote general domestic worker in late January 1879 until the day she died Kate said that she had taken the job with Julia as a genuine attempt to make an honest living she said she had no other no other motivations yeah but you know she do be lying like we said she she do be lying Kate one thing about Kate is uh she stays lying she does stay lying forever and always she is pathological at this point but O'Donnell claims that from the very first Kate seems to have have inspired mrs
thomas with fear now although he doesn't offer any examples of this o'donnell does heavily imply that kate's um appearance was a little brutish okay came off real brutish i mean she's she's lived a thousand lives she has she very much has and the way they describe it in the book is her wild celtic blood and the memory of her free life in wexford made her no doubt very very restless and bitterly resentful.
I mean, you know us Celtic women.
You know the wild Celtic blood.
Also, didn't they say that Julia was pretty easily frightened?
Didn't they say she was easily excitable?
She was. She was easily excitable.
So she was very, like...
Which I think they mean more so, because it was more like a compliment when they say that.
I think it was more like you could make her excited very easily.
You could amp her up about stuff.
I thought it was was more like yeah like oh she was she's easily excitable yeah like she's easily like you know sent off the edge yeah which i think that could also be true because she was so tough with her employees yeah um but all descriptions of kate like physical descriptions they were given after her arrest so like they're obviously biased by a pretty fucking terrible crime that she committed but julia's doctor described kate as quote an uncommonly tall powerful and ill -favored woman looking as if she belonged to the tramp class oh that's and i was like well damn i mean kate's a piece of shit
so it's like whatever but like damn yeah that's gotta hurt it's pretty rough i wouldn't want to read that about myself but it is speculated that julia had taken on kate with the hope of helping to reform her like she had heard that she had had some troubles when she's a teacher too so she is she's a school teacher and apparently julia had done that for others in the past she'd taken on some people that she that were having like a little bit of a dark past not crazy dark but like some troubles not kate dark not kate dark but some troubles and she thought you know what i'll give them something to
do i'll give them a little money and hopefully it'll set them on the straight and narrow so julia was just like a good lady she sounds like it and in fact during the first week or so of the arrangement kate did her best to impress julia and julia did the same.
Wow. They were both being very kind to each other.
And actually, Julia in that first week lowered her unreasonable expectations a little bit and kind of let things slide just to kind of ease Kate into the work.
But unfortunately, it didn't take long for Kate's true character to reveal itself.
And she soon became very lazy, very disrespectful, very aggressive and defiant.
Which is who she was.
gave you a chance. Yeah, and she's changing her ways of doing things for you so kate later told investigators at first i thought her a nice old lady and i hope that i might be comfortable and happy with her but i found her very trying and she used to do many things to annoy me during my work uh it's like is she annoying you actively like trying to or you just easily annoyed and you're just lazy yeah but according to kate julia would often check her work after she'd finished cleaning and would point out spots that had not been cleaned correctly well bitch it's my house and that's your job i'm like
that is the job man i don't know but kate said this sort of conduct towards me by mrs thomas made me feel an ill feeling towards her i watched you know which also i'm like why don't we speak like this anymore like well and this now would be like that bitch made me really fucking angry but like back then it's like this made me have an ill ill feeling towards her it just feels so much more like but kate had also begun spending much of her time at a nearby pub because remember she lives right adjacent to the pub um it's called the hole in the wall that's fun julia strongly disapproved of i'm sure
she did especially when it's affecting kate's work seemingly because kate would come back like drunk and also spend a lot of her time there right she would show up late she wouldn't show up to things at all so fuck that So Kate had made several attempts to straighten out her life in the past, at least like half -hearted attempts.
So there's no reason to doubt that she at least had like partially intended to maybe do an honest day's work here.
But I don't think that was ever the full intention here.
But it's definitely worth considering the fact that Kate definitely saw in Julia Thomas that although she wasn't a wealthy woman, her commitment to the appearance of wealth and status would have been a tempting thing for kate and she has the jewelry she has exactly things worth stealing and remember kate's a lifelong skilled thief that's what she is but if she had been planning to steal anything from julia it turned out that she wasn't given much of a chance to do so in the beginning so at just one month after hiring kate and bringing her into her home julia actually gave her a notice of dismissal
so she didn't get a lot of time to steal anything because she was all over her it was really only a month yeah and then julia was like you gotta suck at this so gotta go gotta go now whether or not julia had actually truly feared kate which was what everybody believes um that's just like speculation but it kind of makes sense with how quick she let her go yeah but there is reason to believe that she did did have some fear of her after she gave her a dismissal because who knows It shows how Kate reacted to the dismissal.
Yeah, and she could already see that she was very aggressive and very defiant.
Rather than have Kate leave immediately upon giving notice, which you could have done, Julia actually allowed her to stay for a few more days so she could make arrangements for future accommodations.
Oh. Which, that was pretty big of Julia.
According to several members of Julia's church, after she gave Kate the notice of dismissal, she asked several people in the congregation whether they would be willing to stay with her at her home because she was scared oh i know donald writes that um the way she put it she was scared of the dark morose savage eyed kate fuck yeah um and she was scared that she would exact some kind of revenge like she so for her to think that she said some shit yeah she said some shit now eventually a young woman and her daughter actually agreed to stay with her and that kind of eased her anxiety a little bit
oh that's good and during this period it seems that Kate didn't act out in this while they were there at least not as so much that Julia feared her anymore and the presence of these other people in the house kind of like emboldened Julia to continue to criticize Kate so that didn't help it's like you already dismissed her but then she She also had a little bit of a reason to do it because she had given Kate until February 28th to be out of the house, which was when the other lodgers were planning to leave as well.
They were only staying as long as she was there.
So, that would have been fine.
Like, there's other people in the house.
You're going to leave. They're going to leave on the same day.
Everything will be fine.
Yeah. But when the deadline started approaching, Kate had not found housing.
She had not found other work.
And so, she appealed to Julia, can I stay a few days longer?
This would have left Kate and Julia in the house alone together for a number of days.
She didn't want to appear cruel, though, or uncharitable.
So Julia said, sure.
So that Sunday, February 28th, Kate had gotten this.
When she was supposed to be out of the house.
Yeah. Kate had gone out to town in the morning.
But agreed to be back in the afternoon so that Julia could go to church. Okay.
Because she was obviously using something that Julia needed to go to church. Yeah.
Yeah. In the previous weeks before this, Kate had used this free time to visit her son, who she had actually left in the care of Mrs. Crease.
I was wondering where the kid was.
Yeah, Lucy Loaders' maid, Mrs. Crease.
That's who she left her with.
But on this particular day, instead of going to visit her son, she went to the hole in the wall.
And she ended up returning home late.
She was there drinking a lot.
According to Kate, when she got home late and was clearly drunk, Julia, quote, became very agitated and left the house to go to church in that state.
Members of her church congregation did later confirm that Julia appeared very angry that day.
I mean... And had mentioned that she was late to the service because of Kate.
Now, Kate told several different versions of what happened next that afternoon, so it's difficult to know exactly which one is accurate, but we can figure out pretty much how it went down.
The evidence and testimony support this version of events.
Okay. When the service ended, Julia returned home in much the same agitated state than when she left and she went upstairs.
Because she's probably like, just get out of my house.
She's like, get the fuck out.
I'm done with you. Like, please leave. You're annoying.
When you want someone to leave your house, you just want them to leave. Especially when it's someone that you have to be scared of and like tiptoeing around.
So she went upstairs.
Kate followed her upstairs.
And the two women began arguing.
and at this point she julia demanded you have to leave the fucking house you have to get out to go yeah like i'm not living like this anymore so julia is just like get out of my house now julia at this time i think is in her early 50s oh okay just so you're aware of like you know obviously we're in the 1800s early 50s looks a little different in the 1800s much older now right Right.
So she was like, you need to.
Julia was like, you need to get the hell out of the house.
I'm done with this.
You've overstayed your welcome.
And so basically what Kate saw it as is you're rescinding your offer for me to stay longer.
Like, how dare you?
And it's like, well, you're an asshole.
Well, it's like she gave that to you kind of out of like.
She kind of felt like obligation to do it.
And in response, Kate became very angry to this and became physically aggressive.
Oh, my God. And pushed Julia and ended up pushing her down the stairs.
Oh, shit. And Kate told investigators she had a heavy fall.
I felt that she was seriously injured and I became agitated at what had occurred.
Lost all control of myself.
And to prevent her screaming and getting me in trouble, I caught her by the throat.
And in the struggle, she was choked and I threw her on the floor.
I love how she says she was choked.
It's like, no, what you meant to say was I choked her.
it's like you are removing yourself from that like the active participation role and she was choked off by what bitch and it's like this lady fell down that you threw her down the stairs she got hurt and then you were like oh i better kill her what the fuck get in trouble what do you mean you better kill her like why don't you just leave yeah what are you doing skip town what are you doing killing her and like i threw her on the floor like jesus it's horrible and remember remember Kate's a big lady yeah right and Julia's not yeah so she's using her like brute strength right over on the floor and to
choke her manually and she's much older like she's not yeah exactly not able to really put up a fair fight I can't tell you how often I hear oh I'm a little OCD I like things neat that's not OCD I'm Howie Mandel and I know this because I have OCD actual OCD causes relentless unwanted thoughts what if I did something terrible and forgot what if I'm a bad person why am I thinking this terrible thing.
It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better.
OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy.
Regular talk therapy doesn't cut it.
OCD needs specialized therapy.
That's why I want to tell you about NoCD.
NoCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for OCD.
Their licensed therapists provide provide specialized therapy virtually, and it's covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans.
If you think you might be struggling with OCD, visit nocd .com to schedule a free 15 minute call and learn more.
That's nocd .com. You know that person in your life who just can't stand mayo?
Call them traumatized.
Call them closed minded.
We get it. They're stuck in their ways.
But here's the thing.
They just haven't tried Hellman's flavored mayo.
We're talking bold flavors that will flip even the biggest skeptics.
Spicy mayo that adds the perfect kick to your burger.
Garlic aioli that transforms ordinary fries into something extraordinary.
Chipotle mayo that turns your basic wrap into a smoky sensation.
So to all the mayo haters out there, yes, we're looking at you.
It's time to eat your words.
Because with mayo this flavorful, any hater is just a mayo lover waiting to be convinced.
Hellman's Flavored Mayo.
Get ready to eat your words.
Now, later, when she was later questioned, Julia's landlord, Mrs. Ives, reported hearing, quote, a noise like the fall of a heavy chair around the time the murder was believed to have been committed.
But otherwise, no one heard anything else.
Oh, wow. Now, shocked by what she had just done, because holy shit, Kate moved quickly because she was like, I have to dispose of the body and clean up this mess.
Because she had not only choked her out, but she had thrown her down the stairs and there was blood.
Like she had hurt herself.
And she said, I became entirely lost and without any control over myself.
And looking on what had happened and the fear of being discovered, I determined to do away with the body as best as I could.
That's not out of control.
No, that's not out of control at all.
That's perfectly in control.
yeah you made very rational decisions for what you thought you were doing so she it gets worse she dragged julia's body into the kitchen and using a razor and a kitchen knife she quote stripped it cut it up and threw it into a copper pot oh yep okay she had already started boiling water that day for the washing and so she just threw all the pieces into the boiling water but uh i don't know if anybody's following but that's boiling flesh that's gonna smell really bad unable unable to tolerate the smell of the boiling body parts kate then just left the house and went back to the hole in the wall
pub where she spent several hours drinking chatting with people hanging out hanging out while julia's uh dismembered body is back at the house and is boiling in a pot.
Also, like, how big is this pot?
Yeah. Well, she didn't put all of her.
She put most of her in there.
You'll find out what happens to the rest of her.
So she went to the hole -in -wall, drank, you know, had fun.
Went back that night to clean up the rest of the blood because, my goodness, was that place covered in blood.
How is she not covered in blood?
Oh, well, that's the other thing.
She started wearing Julius clothing.
She would have had to have changed.
She started wearing her clothing.
And Mrs. Ives, the landlady, the landlady.
I thought you were going to say the landlady -ian.
That's a better, like, title.
The landlady. Hello, I'm the landlady.
It's like when people say lordy, lordy.
Landlady, lordy. I'm the landlady, lordy.
But Mrs. Ives, the landlady, and other neighbors around did corroborate this whole thing because they said the neighborhood began to fucking wreck.
Well, that's the thing.
It's not like just the house is going to smell.
This is some old -timey shit.
This is in the 1800s.
We don't really have, like, good air quality anyways.
And this is a middle -class neighborhood where everything is really close together, too.
And they don't have these, like, you know, weather -tested window panes and shit that's going to, like, keep anything in.
It's like everything is seeping out into everywhere.
And so the whole neighborhood is smelling Julia boiling in a pot.
Now, during the coroner's inquest several weeks later, there were also claims made that Kate had, quote, fed the fat dripping to local children to eat and called it pig's lard. Is that for real?
It's in the inquest. No. Yes.
No. Yeah. Kate's fucked.
Yeah. Kate's fucked.
Kate's fucked. Ew. Now, when she returned to the house a few hours later, Kate put the remaining body parts in a box.
but julia's head and one of her feet wouldn't fit in the box so she buried the head in a nearby empty lot oh and then threw the foot into a garbage pile fantastic yeah a few days later after weighing the box down with some stones she threw julia's remains into the timbs oh um then returned to the house and was pretty confident like i think i just committed the perfect crime I don't know about that sister this she was so confident she walked back to that house and was like well I'm just gonna live here for a while I'm just gonna use her shit nobody's gonna ask where Julia is like everyone knows
she doesn't like you no but as previously stated Julia was a widow and had no children so her immediate absence wouldn't have been like so noticed but also remember our girls Julia like to take off and not tell anyone on travel yeah she loved last -minute travel she wouldn't tell her closest contacts sometimes yep so neighbors and friends had become kind of accustomed to her just disappearing for periods of time really without warning damn it so it really worked in Kate's favor it gave her ample time to clean that crime scene without feeling even the slightest impetus to flee she was like you know
what no I work here as far as anybody's concerned me being in this house is totally fine and if anyone asks I just say julia's on vacation again and i'm keeping the house even where people like julia had told people she was afraid of kate yeah she could just be like oh well i you know like we came to an agreement we worked it out oh shit after disposing of julia's remains in the thames kate returned to the house and started cleaning just to give the general appeal appearance of normalcy she didn't want to arouse any suspicions after all and by dumping the remains in the river kate believed she
had gotten rid of any evidence that could prove a murder had even occurred she was like those are never gonna come back up the river will will eat them yeah that's how and they will never be seen again totally except one day later on march 5th a coal porter traveling along the road adjacent to the river just saw a box and it had resurfaced about five miles away from where she had dumped this that's the other thing girlfriend like i'm not saying do better because don't don't but like you threw it in a box sometimes boxes float yeah well she waited She weighted it down.
Oh, she did, okay. So she did think it was going to be weighted down, but like...
Still. Shit happens.
It's a river. Yeah.
Rivers flow. They do.
Things happen. They're known to.
Yeah. Gently down the stream, in fact.
Well, and this guy saw this box, and this was Julia's box.
This wasn't some cardboard box that you just find.
This was Julia's like...
It was a fancier box.
Almost like a trunk?
Yeah, like some kind of nice box, essentially.
So this guy saw this, and he thought it might contain something valuable, because it was a nice looking box.
Oh, my God. So he fished it out of the river and opened it to find several body parts wrapped in brown paper.
Not what he was looking for.
So he was like, wow, this isn't what I wanted.
So he reported the discovery to the police and an investigation was mounted to just figure out who this was.
Yeah. According to the doctor who conducted the examination of the remains, quote, the mutilization of the corpse had a mutilization.
Why do I keep adding -ization onto things lately?
I don't know. That's not the word. No, it's not.
But you know what? I know that.
You know that. We all know that.
Do I know that? Because it didn't even hit me.
My brain knows that.
I know I do know that too, but it's - And I'm reading it.
You made it believable.
Mutilization. What was the last thing I said?
Oh, I forget. There was another thing where I had ization onto the instead.
You absolutely did.
What's going on? I don't remember.
Maybe you're - I need a speech pathologist. You're in a place of Z.
That, you know, I'm listening.
Listening with my ears.
Speech pathology. Here I come.
No, sometimes when you're reading fast and it's hard to - Yeah and sometimes you just want to make it fancy like Mutalization Sometimes you have a soul and you just go into a completely different accent So don't worry about it Perhaps we can go to the speech pathologist together There you go I like it A two for one Yeah let's see if they got any deals going A BOGO Are you guys running any BOGO sales They're like this is a real establishment Please leave Ma 'am this is a Wendy's They're like oh shit I'll take a spicy chicken nugget you gotta fall for fall oh shit i'll take a spicy chicken nuggetization oh
man that's good that's good that's good shit so what the doctor did say was not mutilation because he was a doctor and he was smart so he said the mutilation oh yes that is the word of the corpse had certainly been done in an unskilled manner you could say that yeah leading investigators to theorize that the crime had been committed by someone who had no experience in killing or dismemberment damn to go that far that would have never killed before is wild like that's your first foray that's a lot that's something now other than the human remains inside there was really nothing unique about the box
it was it was a nice box but that's really it and there was really no clues to where it came from just popped out of the river so that left scotland yard investigators with very little to work with because of this the press began referring to the case initially as the barns mystery which that was the area where the box was discovered that's why they named it that okay a few days later the mystery deepened though when a severed foot was found quote buried in a dung heap in Twickenham oh that's so awful and I looked it up Twickenham because I was like is it Twickenham I don't want to be that person is it
Twickenization Twickenization maybe town but the doctor examined the foot and concluded it was the missing limb from the body parts found in the Thames oh wow still missing a head though oh on March 16th the coroner's inquest was carried out to determine the cause of death but with little information and no clues, it was kind of impossible to come out with any final conclusions.
In his testimony, the examining doctor, Dr. Adams, gave the dimensions of the dismembered body parts, and I'm not sure if he was okay, to be quite honest, because he incorrectly identified the victim as a woman of between 18 and 30.
Huh. And she may have born children.
Incorrect, incorrect.
On both fronts, all incorrect.
Like, are you okay, sir?
I think he probably just thought there was a strong chance that, you know.
He's like, she's a woman.
She's definitely a woman.
She probably had kids.
Had to have had kids.
In the 1800s, she probably did.
Most people that die are 18 to 30 when they're murdered.
Well, you had a 50 -50 shot and you got it wrong.
I don't know. Old friends.
But after being assured by Scotland Yard detectives that without any additional information, it was unlikely the victim would be identified, the inquest was unfortunately closed in late March. Because they were like, we don't really know how we're going to do anything with this.
Yeah. because remember it's the 1800s they're like whoops i guess that's it like that sucks but i guess we have nothing else so as the barnes mystery unfolded several miles away kate webster just kept living in julia's house like i said wearing her clothes going about her usual business and continuing to give the impression that everything was fine that's so fucked that she just wearing her clothes yeah that part i hate a lot yeah now during this period she claimed she she got the idea to sell off Julia's furniture and other valuables as a means of funding her escape.
See, that's what makes me think.
Yeah. She says it was suggested in my mind to sell all there was in the house and go away.
The way this bitch talks like she's not even there.
She's not even part of this.
She was choked. It was suggested in my mind.
Yeah. When I say something rude to somebody, I'm gonna be like, Oh my God, I'm sorry.
My mind just suggested that.
That was just suggested in my mind.
I apologize. apologize i have to take the suggestions not on me and they have to come out my mouth but like i don't necessarily create them do you think she's talking like that because she was trying to sound like perhaps insane or do you think she's just an asshole i think she's just an asshole to be glad on i'm also in a big place of perhaps today i don't know if you've noticed perhaps she's just an asshole perhaps um but to do all this because now she's got to sell all the furniture kate contacted an associate she had committed robbery with in the past hey old habits die hard you know and they
made the two made arrangements with a local salesman named john church and john church was going to buy julia's furniture and other belongings for sale great the thing was john church was told that kate was julia and that she was selling her stuff because she was moving that's spooky yeah great podcast that that is that is a great podcast now at the same time she continued continued ordering items to be delivered to the house on julia's tab to to try to keep it going right like she's alive she's shopping keep it going that she's alive like the whole thing now on march 18th church arrived at julia's
house with his horse and cart to remove the furniture while julia's absence hadn't been entirely out of the ordinary as far as the neighbors were concerned seeing a stranger removing her furniture from the house when she wasn't there that'll do it that was a little weird to them now somewhat suspicious mrs ives our landlordy there landlord she confronted john church who explained to that mrs thomas mrs julius tom julia thomas had sold him the items but when he described thomas for mrs ives a little bit different he was describing kate webster so realizing she had been found out kate just took
the fuck off she just fled the the house and went immediately to the train station where she caught a train to liverpool just jumped a train julia's disappearance though was quickly reported to police now by the neighbors um as was the suspicion that kate had something to do with her absence and she just up and vanished and she was like posing as her to sell her shit uh an investigator soon connected the remains discovered in the thames with the disappearance of julia thomas the big break came when detectives managed to track down a local boy who claimed that a woman matching Kate's description had
asked him for help carrying a box to the river.
She asked a little boy to help her carry that shit to the river?
Yep. Wow. Which they concluded was now the remains of Julia Thomas.
That's fucked. During a search of Julia's home, investigators discovered the copper pot at the back of the house that was quote covered with fat.
And the coroner later explained that the reasons the the remains had been preserved with, quote, a parchment -like appearance was because of that, like, rendered fat.
Yeah. They also discovered bloodstains and other evidence all over the house that strongly suggested that a violent murder had occurred.
So she wasn't good at cleaning.
She was not. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person?
We've got you covered.
How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell?
Thanks, have a good one.
Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in -person sales?
That's kind of our thing.
Wherever you sell, businesses that grow, grow with Shopify.
Sign up for your $1 a month trial at shopify .com slash listen.
Shopify .com slash listen.
Scotland Yard detectives couldn't yet prove that Julia had been murdered by Kate, but there was enough evidence to arrest Kate for robbery at least, and a warrant was put out for her arrest. Though her whereabouts at this time, no one knew.
Now under normal circumstances, 19th century detectives would have had a very difficult time tracking a criminal who'd fled the city, particularly one who had a significant head start.
Because again, it's the 1800s.
Yeah. This isn't easy.
They're not just like, oh, follow their cell phone signal.
Like, it's literally like, they're gone.
Like, we don't know where they went.
Right. But she had a significant criminal history.
Kate was very known to authorities in various places around England and Ireland.
And so a constable in Wexford recognized her from a previous arrest and contacted Scotland Yard. Like, hey, I know that asshole.
I know that bitch. And the Wexford constable gave detectives from London the address of Kate's relatives in the area.
And on March 29th, she was arrested at her uncle's home in Killand and transported right on back to London.
See ya. Now, on Monday morning, March 31st, Kate was brought before the magistrates in Richmond, where she was charged with the murder of Julia Martha Thomas, as well as larceny for the theft and attempted sale of Thomas's property.
property now at the time john church was also charged with being a conspirator in the crime and for receiving stolen property those charges would be eventually completely dropped that's good because it was determined he had absolutely nothing to do with it yeah i mean she was posing as julia at first though kate tried to pin the blame of the murder on john church yeah that's not shocking no not at all she said i first got acquainted with him when i was living two or three Three doors down from him, she said.
He used to take me out to London and to various public houses.
I met him again some months ago, and he came to my mistress's house one night, the worst for drink.
So he came drunk. And according to Kate, it was church who suggested they murder Julia for profit from selling her shit.
Meanwhile, he's like, no, no, no, I thought that was Julia.
I don't know her. And he's like, I'm a furniture buyer.
buyer like why would i sell to me when i sell it to like i'm a furniture buyer like right that doesn't make any sense and she quoted church as allegedly saying we could have her things and go off to america together and enjoy it wow she really thought me thinks you had a crush on john church and you're mad you want to create this like fantasy of him being like we'll run off to america together and john church is like help i don't even i thought she was julia like what the fuck?
And Kate went on to claim that Church murdered Julia Thomas himself.
Oh my God. And threatened to kill her as well if she spoke a word of the crime to anyone.
And, you know, didn't pretend to be Julia.
Exactly. Now in statements to both the police and the press, John Church denied literally anything.
Word for word. He's like, I only recently met Kate Webster and I thought she was Julia Thomas.
Like that, I don't know her.
We didn't hang out.
I didn't want to run off to America with her.
I don't even know her real name.
right according to John Church the woman he now knew to be Kate Webster had been introduced to him only a couple of weeks earlier by a mutual acquaintance and she claimed to have what she had said to him was that she had lost her husband a few years earlier so she was literally cosplaying Julia Thomas saying I'm a widow oh fuck I mean okay okay and she was attempting to rent rooms in her home as a mean of means of income which is literally what Julia Thomas was doing this is It is psychotic.
But she said she had been unsuccessful at keeping people like lodgers, so she needed to sell her furniture.
Okay. That's what she was telling him.
And the two had made an arrangement, and the next time he saw her was just to pay for the goods.
And then he said, and then I attempted to pick up the items, but then I was stopped by Mrs. Ives.
Right. And Church said, what the fuck is going on here?
What is happening? And he said, only just think of the impudence and audacity of the woman to come here dressed up in her silk dresses, representing herself to be a lady and the mistress of the house and swindle me in this way and bring all the trouble on me.
That translates roughly into fuck this.
Like, what is this fuck shit?
Like, what is this?
That translates into this bitch. This bitch?
That's what that translates into in 2024.
But within a few days of the arrests, Kate had implicated yet another suspected conspirator named Henry Porter, who had introduced her to church for the sale of the furniture.
According to Kate, Porter had also been in on the scheme and had even used his young son, Robert, to help Kate dispose of the remains in the Thames.
And Kate said, Church and Porter were with me at the time.
I intend to tell the whole truth as I do not see why I should be blamed for what Church has done.
Bitch. And remember, she's a fucking liar.
She lies about everything.
She's got big old issues.
But fortunately for Church, several people testified as to having seen him at the bar, The Rising Sun, on the night of the murder.
And similarly, in her deposition, Porter's wife, Henry Porter's wife, gave a detailed explanation of how the family had come to know Kate and insisted that while her husband may have introduced Kate to John Church for the sale of the furniture, he had no idea that the items were stolen or that Julia had been murdered.
They thought she was on vacation.
After several continuances and pre -trial hearings, Kate finally went to trial at the Old Bailey, we've heard of that before, on July 2nd, 1879.
Due to the extensive coverage of the case leading up to this trial and just the sensational details of the case, the courtroom was well attended by curious onlookers.
There were additional people outside the courthouse wanting to know what was going on.
And at the time, Kate pleaded not guilty and continued to say that the murder had been committed by others.
And in support of their argument, Kate's lawyer, Werner Slay, pointed out that, which Werner Slay, it reminds me of Legally Blonde, Werner.
What, like it's hard?
Like it's hard. He pointed out that the Crown had no physical evidence connecting Kate to the murder and whatever evidence they did have was entirely circumstantial.
In fact, Slay argued, there was no real evidence supporting the theory that Julia Thomas had died by violence.
Except for the fact that she was dismembered and her body was boiled.
My God, are you serious?
It's natural causes.
Are you real? What is your definition of natural causes?
Natural causes. She just flew apart into a boiling pot of water.
And then fell into a copper pot.
It's crazy. And then somehow ended up in a river.
Who are you, sir? Word or slay?
Yikes. He did not get a law degree from Harvard. And then he said, and actually, there's no conclusive evidence that say the remains in the box belong to Julie at all.
And it's like, except that the coroner said they did.
Okay. Okay. Also, Slay added that even if a murder had occurred, and that's a big if on his part.
What's all that blood, baby?
Who could ever believe that a young woman and the mother of a child could have committed such a heinous act?
So he's standing in front of this courtroom being like, yeah, I know.
I know that we have all this evidence, circumstantial or whatever.
But she's a woman. A woman.
She's a mother. A mother.
I thought she couldn't have done this.
No. Case closed. Get it out of here.
Yikes. And the prosecution, on the other hand, strongly rejected Kate's claims of innocence and cited her very lengthy criminal repast and reputation for just general unpleasantness.
They were like, actually, she quite sucks.
Yeah. They were like, she's kind of a dick.
More importantly, the Crown had evidence on their side.
They were like, regardless of what you're saying, there is evidence.
In one witness after another, the prosecutor, Harry Poland, put the pieces of the complicated story back together for the jury.
A 13 -year -old girl, who was a neighbor of Julia, positively identified that special box in which the remains had been found as one she had seen many times in Thomas's house a year earlier, essentially putting to rest any questions as to whether these remains were actually Julia's.
And also, the coroner and examining doctor testified that although they couldn't be certain without the head, the remains matched those of the woman the age and size of julia thomas so there it is so they got a different doctor and to be like i actually know actually now although the prosecution's case was kind of complicated in their closing remarks poland and the prosecution team laid out the case pretty simply after receiving a notice of termination kate webster had become pissed and murdered her employer julia thomas there it is she told her to leave the testimony of several Several witnesses
indicated that Kate had been seen disposing of the remains in the Thames and that following the murder, she was known to have sold Thomas' belongings and wear her fucking clothes.
It was true, Poland acknowledged, that the evidence was largely circumstantial, but common sense dictated that if Kate had gone so far as to dispose of the body and get rid of all the evidence of the crime, she was likely the one to have committed the crime.
One could say. And Poland reminded the jury neither Porter nor Church were traced in any connection with Mrs. Thomas' house till after the murder.
The accused woman was undoubtedly there as a domestic servant.
So after seven days of trial, the jury found Kate Webster guilty of the willful murder of Julia Thomas.
After the verdict was read, the magistrate asked Kate whether there was any reason that a sentence of death should not be handed down to her.
And Kate insisted, I am not guilty, my lord, of the murder.
I've never done it, and as I was taken into custody, I was in a hurry.
I made a statement against Church and Porter.
I am very sorry for doing so, but I was told to do so.
They are quite innocent of anything of the sort, and I want them to be clear of it.
So now she's completely retracting all of her accusations against them.
But is also saying, I still didn't do it.
Yeah. And she was told to say that?
I'm like, by the police?
Exactly. Exactly. It's like, was it another mind suggestion?
I was going to say, it was suggested in her mind.
In her final statement, Kate pretty much undermined her entire defense by clearing Church and Porter of anything.
And instead, she insisted the real killer, now, was the father of her unborn child.
She was preggers? She said, yes, I'm pregnant.
And they were like, wow, you didn't bring that up until right now.
And they were like, what's his name?
And she was like, I will not tell you that.
And they were like, you don't want to give us the name.
You just want to go to jail instead?
Like, you don't want to tell us who actually killed this lady?
And she said, nope.
And the magistrate, though he had been very patient by this point, he clearly didn't believe shit all of this.
So he said, after so many false statements, which you have made, it must not be assumed as a matter of mere course that you are telling the truth now.
And with the trial over, the magistrate made it clear that his only course of action was to pass sentence.
And with that, he sentenced Kate to be hanged.
Bye, girl. Now, it was later determined that Kate was not pregnant.
Yeah, I had a feeling.
She was not pregnant during any of this trial.
She was probably just like last straw.
She was trying to get out of it.
And her appeal, which she filed several weeks later, was immediately rejected.
Oh, good. On July 28th, the night before she was executed, Kate recanted all her previous statements and made a full confession to the murder.
She wrote, We had an argument which ripened into a quarrel and in the height of my anger and rage, i threw her from the top of the stairs to the ground floor in her confession she insisted that she had intended for her job with julia thomas to be a new start for her and her son and that she never intended to kill or rob the woman she said i did not murder mrs thomas from any premeditation i was enraged and in a passion and i cannot now recollect why i did it something did did seize me at the time so she's saying your own anger i lost my shit yeah and i murdered this woman not only threw her down
the stairs and choked the life out of her toddled down the stairs after her and choked the life out of her yeah and threw her onto the ground and then dismembered her used a razor and a kitchen knife to dismember her boil her remains in a pot bury her head in in an empty lot, throw her foot into a trash pile and then throw the rest in the Thames and then wear her fucking clothing and pretend to be her.
And give the fat to local children.
And she's like, but I didn't like plan it, everybody.
I did intend to just work and it's like, that's so nice that you intended to work.
Seems as though it didn't work out that way.
That's really nice, but like, you did some shit.
Oy to the vey, girl.
In her final statement, Kate said, I am perfectly resigned to my fate and am full of confidence in a happy eternity.
If I had a choice, I would almost sooner die than return to a life full of misery, deception, and wickedness.
And with her confession made and her conscience allegedly cleared, Kate Webster was executed the following morning in the yard at Wandsworth Prison and buried in an unmarked grave. And the crowd assembled outside the prison cheered.
Hey. Now, you may be wondering, what happened to julia's head did they find it where is it i haven't found it yet well throughout the investigation and trial investigators were continually vexed by that point they could not find her head kate had claimed she buried it in a vacant lot but they were never able to find it and they said they believed it was just irretrievably lost they couldn't like where it's not where she says it is.
I don't know where it is.
And then one day in 2010, a skull was discovered by some workers.
Are you ready? In the garden of BBC broadcaster and famous David Attenborough.
What? In the garden of David Attenborough, they found a skull.
They sent it for forensic testing.
That skull was identified as the 130 -year -old skull of Julia Martha Thomas.
What? That skull was the final missing piece of the mystery, and with its discovery, it is 100 % sure that Kate Webster did this because she pointed them to where that is.
They just couldn't find it.
What the fuck? In David Attenborough's fucking garden, they found Julia Martha Thomas' skull.
That's wild. He's the guy that does all those nature videos and like under the sea things.
He has the voice of an angel.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That David Attenborough.
That one? That one.
I'll never listen to one of those the same way.
In 2010, they found the final - Was he just gardening?
And this is why I'm telling you, there is always hope to close a fucking case.
Totally. 130 years later always there's never a time where you can say we will never find out that's why i hold out hope for jack the ripper shit because i'm telling you that's there's always something there's always a chance i did not see it going that way no so it closed it right out too it put a nice pin in it that it said kate webster did this absolutely what she said was true it happened and that john church and the other guy and uh the other guy there porter were not were not any part of this wow yeah i'm shook isn't that crazy that was a wild fucking case yeah it's gnarly so that is what is called
the richmond murder the murder of julia martha thomas it's so sad she sounded like a really cool lady yeah she didn't deserve what she got kate sounded like a a fucking trip kate is a trip not an enjoyable one not at all and she really fucked herself at that very much she could add a nice cushy job here yeah and it's so creepy that she just kept wearing her shit like what selling her stuff and taking like ordering things on her tab yeah what like what the fuck it's like girl and then she's like i didn't plan it it's like okay but you did some terrible shit afterwards dude like just because you
didn't plan it do your job and And if you throw somebody down the stairs, you've got to call someone.
Don't throw people down the stairs.
Yeah, don't, obviously.
Yeah, so that's that.
Well, we hope you keep listening.
And we hope you... Keep...
It... Weird. But not so weird that you kill your employer and chop her up into little pieces and then boil her on the stove and feed the fat to local children.
Don't do that. Yuck.
Let's pray. oh okay are you all right today the fuck you're insane insane woman if you like morbid you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music before you go tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery .com slash survey hey weirdos you know Ash and I have covered some seriously dark tales about romance gone really wrong oh yeah there are so many cases where too good to be true turns out to be exactly that Well, get ready for a love story that's going to blow your minds because this one
is happening right now.
And get this, it's hosted by our friends Hannah and Saruti from Red Handed.
Meet Travis. He falls head over heels for Lily Rose.
She's gorgeous, she's understanding, and she's literally perfect.
And she's not human.
That's right! Lily Rose is an AI companion, a computer program designed to be Travis's dream woman.
And at first, it seems like a perfect relationship.
relationship. But when Lily Rose's behavior starts getting strange, this love story takes a dark and twisted turn that no one saw coming.
Follow Flesh and Code on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can binge all episodes early and ad -free by joining Wondery Plus.
