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Hey, weirdos, I'm Elena.
I am Ash. And this is Morbid.
dot com no it's just morbid I don't think morbid .com exists no I don't think it does and if it does it doesn't belong to us what's up brothers it's Vanderpump Rules finale night yeah that's how I feel the season was hard and interesting but I'm very worried it's going to be the last season of Vanderpump I feel like it might be yeah you know I want them to go out on a higher note personally yeah like this just feels so sad yeah I think it was just like you know they had to ride the wave of Scandival yeah and then I feel like there was like only so many places you can go after that uh -huh none of them
are really positive no it's very true I feel like I do feel like there There was a cosmic shift, though, after that that I was a little confused about.
I felt a cosmic shift myself, actually.
I didn't even talk about this.
This is now like a Bravo podcast. There we go.
You know, sometimes it doubles.
Yeah. But when I went to Sir, I felt a cosmic shift. I think a lot of people feel that way.
So many people commented on the pictures that I posted and were like, oh, my God, girl, did you go to Sir?
And I was like, yes.
Yes, I did. And no photos exist of it.
Yeah. I'll say no more than that I will I just won't elaborate it was just an experience yep you could call it that but on the way to Sur I had this Uber driver who was the coolest lady ever her name is Pauline and she was like oh you guys are going to Sur like are you big like bravo like Vanderpump Rules fans and I was like oh like 100 % that's why we're going to Sur that's why I live and breathe that's why we're going to Sur and she turns out she had a has a podcast called tender loving care question mark and it's wicked good and she also had so much tea that like she had so much tea that like
I can't even share all of it here but she has some that like the tea then goes into our podcast so definitely go listen to that podcast oh look at that and I told her I was like I'll shout you out girl yeah I love that it was so good well speaking of podcasts I have a podcast shout out too you do I think I've shouted out this person's podcast before but like I've been listening to it lately and she's just delightful and does such a good job it's the Hello Sydney podcast that's such a good name for a podcast it is it's so good because her name is Sydney yeah how do you like you're just you have to
have a podcast if her name is Sydney and you're into horror it's Horror Chronicles on TikTok she's amazing she's a great follower we love her we love Sydney and I'm telling you her podcast is a really great listen she did she like covers every horror movie you can think of she does deep deep dives she knows her shit she's someone who you can i like go to her for horror movie recommendations like if she says a movie is good i'm like it's probably good like i'm not worried about it at all that's good to know i could probably use that for scream because our podcast scream usually like whenever i
pick my movies i'm just like googling something like yeah you're just trying it out yeah like giving it a try because you know go to sydney i'm new to the horror world yeah go to sydney she'll She'll steer you in the right direction.
I will. She just covered all four Hell House LLC movies in one episode.
There's four? There's four.
And you've only shown me one?
No, I've shown you two.
No, I've only watched one.
Oh, I think I've watched one, two.
I don't think I've watched three.
And I watched part of four.
Are they all good? I have to finish four.
I love them. Yeah. Nothing beats the first one, but...
The ending of the first one?
I think they're fun.
Fucked me up. hell house llc is such an underrated movie i agree i think it's so good no i oh we're halfway i know and it's got that in houses octoberbill always make me just in the halloween mood i feel like halloween is like last year we had like a really good halloween but there was a lot going on like personally and i like was i had to like postpone my wedding i was like yeah in the the thrust of wedding planning.
And I feel like this year, like not having like a big party, like having to plan a big party, like looming over me is going to be great.
Oh yeah. You can just concentrate on Halloween.
Yeah. Cause I loved my wedding, obviously.
Like it was absolutely fantastic.
But once you're done with that, you're like, love being married.
Let's celebrate the shit out of Halloween.
Oh, and that reminds me that, sorry, we're just like saying I need a minute before we get into to part three so this is called um procrastinating yeah this is like delaying the inevitable is what this is called but uh we did um a live stream show at black craft cults in salem it was so fucking cool the other day and it was we covered uh the salem witch trials and the story of martha carrier and um it was so much fun that i mean black craft cult is so amazing i love that story i love that brand i'm a big loyal black craft cult girly so it was really amazing to be able to do it there and they were all
so sweet and they walked us through their haunt that they have in salem no i'm so fucking excited guys when i tell you i can't wait this haunt is so elite no it's on another fucking level every room we walked in i kept being like this is my disney This is my Disney.
No, that's a direct quote of what she was saying.
I kept turning around and just being like, this is beautiful.
I love this so much. Like, they did such a good job.
So, if you happen to be in Salem during the spooky season this year, definitely go to their Haunt because they're awesome people, awesome brand, and the Haunt is fucking top tier.
No, it's so good. So, just had to say that.
Also, one more thing, just while we're at it.
We have a lot of new merch over on the Wondery store.
We have new drinkware.
we have new t -shirts and we have keychains that are really cute so if you guys want to go grab those go ahead yeah and if you know if you don't want to you don't have to if you want to go right ahead we're not pressuring you we would never pressure you do what you want be your own person live your own life but yeah oh and you can also one thing I am going to pressure you into doing is pre -ordering the butcher game I'll always pressure you into that yeah no i won't pressure you only if you feel like you want to i will pressure you you have to but it's coming out september 17th and you can pre -order
it um and there's a playlist to go along with it on spotify so you can search the butcher game playlist uh that sandow has on their thing and i've shared so it's a cool playlist that i listened to while i was writing it yeah and um and it's not like bullshit i really that's my playlist that i was listening to while i was writing it i have very specific playlists not even just like in the act of writing it she listened to that like throughout the entire writing process like when we would go get coffee in the morning together that would be on and it's a baller playlist it's like i have to do that for each
thing that i write it just puts me in a place but um so that's fun and you can pre -order and pre -ordering is really fun i like pre -ordering we're gonna be sneaking some peeks out there little quotes from the book that we're gonna be popping out onto social media every now and then so you can get a little taste of what you're getting into.
Yeah. And it'll be fun.
So you can go to thebutchergame .com and that'll give you links to all the places you can pre -order the book.
Yay. If you would like to do that.
And again, it's really cool because sometimes you get the book like a day before you're supposed to when you pre -order it.
And that's like a national holiday.
That's really fun. I already finished it and I'm like really excited to read it again.
I love that. I feel like I have to before it comes out like to the earth.
To the earth. Which I kind of feel like even reading it, Like for the first time, like with my ARC, my advanced reader.
I'm an advanced reader and I have a copy.
Like I feel like that was like my second go through because I always read it while you're writing it too.
But it's like bits and pieces.
I also can't wait to listen to the audio book.
Yeah, it's all very exciting.
It is all happening, Sheena Shea.
Tonight on Vanderpump Rules and here in this office.
And you know what? I guess we've gotten through all the fun stuff.
I know. Talked about all the frivolous stuff.
You don't think there's anything else?
Talked about all the exciting stuff.
Yeah. And shouted some podcasts out.
Which we love to do.
Which we love to do.
And now we have to get into part three of Fred and Rose West. Okay, part three means 75 % done by the end of it.
We're getting there.
This one's going to be tough, but all of them are.
In their own ways. Again, a blanket statement over all of them.
Before each one, I'm going to give you the blanket trigger warning that this is very brutal.
brutal sexual assault is all over this very brutal sexual assault and um there's you know child abuse there's abuse of all kinds it's it's really awful so you know if this isn't for you i get it and we'll give you something else in the next one so uh here we go when we last left off we talked about uh linda goff who went missing her mother june had showed up at the west house looking for her and rose answered the door wearing linda's slippers and she saw all her clothes yeah she saw all her clothes hanging on a line in the backyard and rose just told them yeah i don't know she said she was going
to a hotel and said that and like told everybody else that she like hit her kids yeah that she had to let they had to let her go because she hit one of the kids like shut the fuck up rose it only gets worse from there um after the murder of linda goff they They waited seven months before finding their next victim.
They did go long periods of time sometimes between victims. You wonder what they were doing in the middle of all that, though.
That's the thing. I'm like, was all their ire on their children at that point?
Or, I mean, I'm sure there's victims that we don't know about.
Oh, I'm positive there's victims we don't know about, for sure.
The details of this one, the abduction and murder, are kind of murky.
Like many of them, because we're kind of going off of Fred and Rose's account.
and also, you know, the evidence that they could get from these things, but you just kind of have to piece it together.
But like many of Fred and Rose's victims, Carol Cooper, who was known as Kaz to her friends.
Oh, what a cool nickname.
Isn't that a cool nickname?
Kaz. She had a difficult upbringing.
Like most of them, they seemed to prey on these, you know, people who were vulnerable.
Yeah. Her parents separated when she was just four years old and she lived with her mother.
In 1966, when Carol was eight years old, her mother passed away.
Oh, God. And she was sent to live with her father.
And when she reached adolescence, she became, you know, according to people around her, rebellious and defiant.
She got in trouble a lot.
She was kind of in and out of, you know, having issues with, you know, authorities and authority figures.
She would occasionally run away from home.
She was just going through it.
I mean, I think if my mom died at eight years old, I might feel similar.
Yeah. Yeah. So by the fall of 1973, Carol's father lost patience with the entire thing, and she was placed at the Pines Children's Home in Worcester.
God. This was about 25 miles from Gloucester.
Now, on November 9th, 1973, Carol was given permission by the staff at Pines to go on an overnight visit to her grandmother's house.
Which, like, this whole thing is just really sad.
Yeah. You know what I mean?
Like, you have to get permission to go sleep over your grandma's house?
Yeah, I don't know.
It all just makes my heart sad.
It does. But she was going to be coming back the next morning to the Pines to attend a doctor's appointment.
So there was very strict, like, this is what you're doing.
The next day, Carol returned to Worcester for the appointment as expected.
But later that day, her boyfriend dropped her off at the bus station around 9 .15 p .m. The expectation that she was going back to her grandmother's house, But she was never seen again after being dropped off at the bus.
And of course, the bus stopped.
Now, a huge, very extensive search was made in the days following her disappearance, but they couldn't find any evidence of her.
No sign of Carol, no indication where she could have gone.
I mean, it was like she vanished into thin air.
Investigators believe that what happened is Fred and Rose West picked Carol up while she was hitchhiking and brought her back to the house.
I'm not sure why they think she was hitchhiking since it was a bus stop.
Just going to ask. I don't know where that comes into play, but that is what most sources are saying.
They believe she was brought back to the house where she was tortured, raped, and murdered, then dismembered by Fred and buried in the cellar.
My God. When her remains were excavated from, because she was buried in the cellar and then moved, So she was excavated from her grave and they found the tape mask was still wrapped around her skull.
And pieces of rope and braided cloth were also found in the grave. And like the others, there were several tiny bones missing from her hands and feet.
Which is just so disturbing.
And that seems to be a thing.
Yeah, because you mentioned that in the last part with a couple of the bodies.
And there was also a cervical vertebrae and breastbone that were missing.
Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Investigators believe they were kept as trophies.
Oh, that's heinous.
While Carol appeared to have suffered the same fate as, you know, their previous victims, what they did find was something a little unusual with her.
They found, quote, an unusual gouge mark in the skull, which suggested that Carol may had been stabbed in the head.
What? Yeah. Oh my God.
Yeah. Yeah. And again, she had the same like masking tape mask over her face and head.
Like that one piece of their pathology.
It's so disturbing.
I'm not kidding you.
In the middle of the night, last night, I woke up and it's all I could think about.
It just, yeah, I can't stop thinking about it.
It's just, because it's like, so there's so many layers to it.
Like it's, they're inflicting such terror and panic.
And to think of even doing that.
well and they're also there's also clearly some kind of thing where they're dehumanizing this person they're taking away their face yeah they don't want to see them like you think about it like you remove the head from somebody's body they don't feel like a human right anymore you know you mean like it takes away a little bit of the humanity there yep so covering their head and face and masking tape makes them like a doll yeah and it's like that's like a whole other issue here year.
It's really a lot to think about.
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Hey there, my weird weirdos.
I want to take a minute to recommend another podcast called Who Took Misty Copsey?
In September of 1992, 14 -year -old Misty Copsey leaves the Washington State Fair with her best friend and is never seen again.
Her body is never found.
At the time, Western Washington is home to prolific serial killers like the Green River Killer, which leads to different theories on who's responsible for what happened to Misty.
Over the course of eight episodes, host and cold case investigator Sarah Kalin speaks with Misty's friends and family, looks up police records, and different anonymous tips to try to figure out if Misty's disappearance is the work of a serial killer or someone who knew her.
No suspects are ruled out.
After 33 years, Sarah Kalin hopes to answer the question, who took Misty?
You guys are going to love this.
If you listen to Morbid, we know that you love a cold case, and we always tell you a cold case is never cold.
So definitely give this a listen.
Definitely look into the case.
Listen to Who Took Misty Copsey wherever you get your podcasts.
now up until this point we've said it many times most like all the west victims had you know a few things in common and one of the biggest things they had in common was that they had very difficult or traumatic backgrounds or home lives like that's that's been like across the board and you know as goes oftentimes the case with serial killers personal histories really makes like like these ones can make it easier for them to groom easier for them to manipulate of course easy to make them get into a car with a stranger accept a ride on and unfortunately sometimes and this is why they choose people
that have difficult backgrounds sometimes they believe they're going to be less likely to be missed yeah because people are going to believe that they ran away oh they always disappear yeah you know and these people these you know these kids have been groomed their whole lives to survive yeah you know but they've so they'll get in a car with somebody to get to the next place because they need to get there right you know like that's they're not thinking about oh this person could be the end and it just like kills me that they picked people like kids that they believed no one would look for like
that's it's it's sad fucked up yeah yeah i don't even know.
But their next victim came from a very different background.
Really? And her absence was very much noticed very quickly.
Okay. 21 -year -old Lucy Parrington was from an upper middle class family.
Her father was a chemist. Her mother was an architect.
Wow. Her uncle Kingsley Amos was a well -known novelist. Oh, okay.
And unlike the previous, the other, you know, the the previous young women, who were described as having, like, defiant personalities, getting in some trouble, like, you know, kind of being a little nomadic in the sense that they would be in and out of, you know, people's lives and living situations.
Lucy was described as very popular.
She was a clever, very, very well -liked woman.
She was, she would, like, you know, she followed the rules.
She didn't get into trouble.
She didn't disappear.
She had very very close bonds to people around her.
And in December 1973, Lucy was in her final year at Exeter University where she was studying medieval English.
Oh, that's cool. Which is such a cool.
I was like, wow, Lucy seems cool.
She does. They all seem like they had these like unique personalities.
Some of them weren't appreciated for those unique personalities.
But she had also recently converted to the Roman Catholic faith and took her spirituality very seriously.
obviously. Okay. So, that Christmas, Lucy had been staying with her mother in Gloucester for the break, and on the night of the 27th, she got a ride to Cheltenham to visit her friend Helen Render.
Now, according to Helen, they hung out together, they spent the evening talking about furniture and working on Lucy's application to the Courtauld Institute in London, because that's where Lucy was hoping to actually continue her medieval studies.
Wow. So, she was going to keep keep going so they had like a nice night like you know planning for the future planning for the future hanging out talking like just you know being friends lucy had left helen's house around 10 15 p .m and she walked a short distance to the bus stop uh she never boarded the bus and she was she wasn't even seen at the bus stop in fact but helen said she was walking to the bus stop maybe they got her like near the bus stop yeah now when she didn't return that evening lucy's mother called the police immediately because again this is not this isn't a case of she could be
coming later maybe she got held up no like nope this isn't her the following day a massive search began and given that she was an adult because she was 21 yeah um and it was a holiday there was a hope that maybe she had met a boy or gone to visit more friends from From investigators.
Yeah. But obviously, her family knew that was not the case.
And as the days passed, even with the investigators, that hope was seeming a little misplaced.
They were like, this isn't making sense.
Right. A police spokesperson told the press six days after Lucy went missing, As time goes on, we are getting more concerned.
But this girl has been very happy at the university.
And if she had gone off, we would hope that she would return with the rest of the students on Thursday.
Now, the concern and anxiety and honestly panic started to grow when Thursday came and went, and there was still no sign of Lucy.
She didn't show back up at the university.
The chief superintendent, Bill Turner, said, We must assume that some harm has come to her.
From what we have been told by her relatives and friends, she is not the type of girl that would disappear voluntarily.
Now, in the first weeks of January, an extensive search went underway.
way. Investigators were dragging the local rivers and ponds, any water sources, uniformed air officers were conducting a door -to -door search, roadblocks were set up to question drivers along the main roads, and nothing.
No sign of Lucy. By mid -January, detectives started to wonder whether there was a connection between the disappearance of Lucy and Carol Cooper, who had gone missing two months earlier.
Right. So a police spokesperson said details of the Worcester case are being considered by us to determine the possibility of a link in the girls' disappearance.
Now, despite the suspicion that Lucy and Carol's cases were connected, 20 years would pass before investigators would finally learn what happened to both of those women.
20 fucking years? 20 years they had no idea what happened to Lucy and Carol.
Wow. And even when they found it out 20 years ago, we're still getting vague details here.
Right. Lucy, unfortunately, was among the bodies exhumed from the West Cellar.
Oh, that's so sad. Her body was dismembered and they described it as being, quote, crammed into a shaft between leaking sewage pipes along with a rope, a knife, a section of masking tape, and two hair grips.
My God. Like the others, there were several small bones missing from her skeleton.
and although the details about what she must have endured while she was in that house are unknown probably thankfully um detectives believed she was held captive in the west home for nearly a week oh wow yeah so do you think because obviously this is now like a pattern of like the missing bones do you think that was torture done while these girls were still alive or do you think it It was when Fred dismembered them, a trophy kind of thing.
I could see it, unfortunately, both ways.
Yeah, I feel the same.
They are sadistic. Right.
They're sadistic. And just to think she was there a week, like what were you doing to her for a week?
And they, I mean, they tortured and they took great pleasure in torturing people, so.
And they think she was there for a week because Fred admitted that she was?
Well, that belief is actually based on the fact that on January 3rd, Fred checked in at the Gloucester Royal Hospital with a serious laceration on his right hand, and they believe he'd sustained this injury while he was dismembering her body.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow.
Mm -hmm. Now, when he was interrogated later, Fred claimed that he and Lucy had been having an affair.
Girl, bye. buy which I'm like she wouldn't touch you with a 10 foot pole I'm like you really thought people were gonna buy that and he said purely sex end of story okay nobody nobody no nobody Fred no and according to Fred Lucy had become pregnant and started making demands of him meanwhile it's like dude we have her body we can tell if she's pregnant or not and also she got pregnant within than a week like and also she has close bonds to everyone around her right she wasn't gone like they didn't she never met you exactly didn't know who you were she wouldn't touch you with a tenfold such a ridiculous
story and he said she said i want to come and live with you and all this crap and i just grabbed her by the throat her wanted me to see her parents her wanted me to do bloody everything given that fred lied about literally everything in his life his his background, his victims, everything about, I mean, he was a lying sack of fucking sewage.
Yeah. This is bullshit.
Of course it is. This is bullshit.
It makes absolutely no sense.
We know enough about Lucy, we know enough about people she knows, her family, her friends, everybody around her to know that this is absolute horse shit.
And not only is it horse shit, but how fucking dare that piece of shit.
It makes so much sense though because it's one more way for him to fuck with her living and degrade her yeah and it's like no you snatched her you kidnapped her you abducted her like fuck you she would never come like fuck you dude i hate these people so much now it's completely it's bullshit and the most likely scenario and the one put forth by the prosecution was that fred and rose saw lucy waiting for the bus and offered her a ride right lucy was not one for hitchhiking and was pretty cautious like by all accounts i'm sure but and this is rough they suspect that one or more of the children
was in the car and the presence of the children put her at ease wow and that's like they put this forth during the trial that they believe that's what it makes sense once they got her back to the house she went through you know a similar fate as the rest of the victims. And four months passed before Fred and Rose went out to get another victim.
So they go through some big periods of time.
But it seems to be after like a rather intense...
Yeah, very brutal, awful.
Yeah. On the evening of April 15th, 1974, 21 -year -old Therese, I hope I say her name right.
She's from Switzerland, so I want to make sure I say it right.
Therese Siegenthaler.
She went to a party at a friend's house to mark the start of her vacation.
Like I said, she was born in Switzerland.
Right. And Therese had been studying for a secretarial degree at Woolwich Polytechnic.
Her instructors really liked her.
They said she was a very quiet girl but very confident.
On the night of the 15th, she went to a party in South London and stayed the night there.
And she told her friends her plan was to hitchhike back to North Wales and take the ferry to Ireland.
That was where she was going to be spending her break, in Ireland.
And again, all this hitchhiking and everything, very normal for the time.
Oh, yeah. In this area.
All the time. Yeah.
Now, she was, everybody was aware of the young women who'd gone missing in recent months.
And so her friends kind of warned her about hitchhiking and were like, oh, I don't know.
Like, it's getting a little scary out there right now.
Yeah. But Therese just laughed and said, I can look after myself.
I'm a judo expert. Which I can understand that confidence.
Of course. Of course.
So the following morning, Therese returned to her apartment to grab a few personal items and then went to catch the ferry from Wales.
Now, assuming she had managed to get the boat to her destination, no one even realized Therese had gone missing until she didn't return to school the week after Easter break.
So they just were like, oh, she made it to the boat.
They just assumed, why would they not?
Right. Like that she told them their plan, the plan.
Okay, she went and executed the plan.
Like, why would we think anything else?
But then she didn't come back to school, and they were like, wait a second.
Wait. Therese was reported missing to police on April 26th, and investigators quickly learned that she had actually already paid in advance for some of the upcoming tests that she had later that spring in the Polytechnic University.
So she wasn't disappearing.
Yeah, she had plans.
She had plans. She had paid in advance.
So it was very unlikely that she would just decide not to return and give up that money.
Now, a search was mounted, but there was really, again, no evidence to work of.
She vanished. There was no leads.
Right. She left to go to the ferry and she didn't make it.
Like, where did she go?
Yeah. So the investigation just kind of went nowhere.
And when they searched the house on Cromwell Street later, investigators did find the remains of Therese Siegenthaler buried in a grave in front of a false fireplace at their home.
So, again, she went missing.
No one knew anything.
Years went by. And no one knew anything.
Her family didn't know anything.
Her friends didn't know anything.
She just vanished into thin air.
and then when they dig up finally like get Fred and Rose and dig up the Cromwell street home they find her I can't imagine that kind of like it's the same thing as all these other like as Lucy is like you know all these people you have no fucking clue like Carol you don't know what happened to them for years their family has no idea no leads and you're filling in the blanks for all those years and just wondering what and probably having the littlest sliver of hope that maybe maybe they did just go off and they're living a life and everything's okay and they They just needed to be themselves.
Who knows? And then it's like, and then you find out that they've caught these two fucking horrific serial killers and they're digging up their home and your loved one is one of those people.
Like your loved one has just been buried That you had no idea that they were in the clutches of these people at any point in their life.
And that must just be the biggest punch to the face.
Absolutely. Like, ugh.
It's beyond. She was found in an awful way.
Okay. So I just want to be clear about that.
There were no clothes found with her remains.
But she had a scarf folded and rolled and formed in a loop around her head and tied in a bow.
Detectives believe that it was used to secure her mouth.
Oh, my God. It was literally tied in a bow.
That's the most haunting detail.
Yeah. And unfortunately, Fred said very little about Therese.
during his interrogation but during rose's trial the prosecutor pointed out that terese had no connections to the area and like was likely pitched up picked up hitchhiking to the boat right and they said the only reason to abduct her must have been so that she might be abused either sexually or physically or both yeah um and i believe it's so obviously she was found in a horrific way there's one other victim that is found in like the thing that is found with her is very unsettling, just so you're aware that that's coming up.
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More than seven months passed before they found another victim.
And this one is 15 -year -old Shirley Hubbard. 15 years old.
Yep. So Shirley, unfortunately, was like some of the other victims, led a difficult life for someone so young.
Yeah. And had a history of getting into trouble, running away, that kind of thing.
After her parents separated when she was just two years old, she actually was put into foster care and bounced between a lot of homes until she was six.
When she was six, she was placed with a foster family named Hubbard. And that's where she was living at the time she disappeared.
Like several of the other victims, Shirley had been in and out of trouble in the months before her disappearance and had even run away just a month earlier.
so that's why it was tough when she disappeared because she had been in this like phase yeah when you wonder like you don't know what she was experiencing and no you have no idea like and and again she had been through a lot so it's like she was they act out you know absolutely that happens now a few weeks later after she was found after running away she had started dating a boy named Daniel Davis whose brother coincidentally had dated Carol Cooper what the fuck isn't that that wild yeah yeah it just shows you what a what an area this yeah like a smaller small concentrated area on november 14th
shirley spent the day working the makeup counter at debenham's department store in worcester her shift ended that afternoon and she met up with daniel and the two bought a bag of chips and sat by the river until around 9 30 p .m and that's when daniel walked her to the bus station yeah a bus station and waited with her until the bus arrived wow Wow.
Good boy. Good job, Daniel.
They had plans to meet back at the bus stop the following day, but Shirley didn't show up.
So he even waited with her until the bus came.
Right. Daniel assumed at the time that she had found something else to do.
He felt a little dejected.
He was like, that's a bummer.
But soon after, the Hubbards reported Shirley missing to police and the investigation opened up.
But like the other girls, it appeared as though she had vanished into thin air.
Right. No trace. But obviously what happened was far worse.
Now in court, the prosecution speculated that Shirley had either been kidnapped or somehow manipulated into going to the house on Cromwell Street willingly, where she was abused, raped, and murdered.
Her remains were discovered in a part of the basement investigators referred to as the Marilyn Monroe area.
What? Because the wallpaper in that section of the room was all Marilyn Monroe.
What? which i don't know why that just like gives me the it's such a strange juxtaposition now this is the one i was talking about shirley is the is the one that i was talking about that she's found in a really like unsettling manner manner in court the pathologist who exhumed the body referred to it as quote an extremely horrific discovery like the other shirley's head had been wrapped entirely entirely in a tape mask but inserted through the mask it was so inserted through it was a plastic tube placed in the nostril portion which protruded from the front and a second piece of similar tubing
was also found at the burial site when the prosecution asked what purpose this mask could have served the pathologist said quote that can only have been for sexual gratification so that that her living but restrained body could be used and abused at will.
Oh, my God. That's like...
That part has been sticking with me for days.
So they just kept her alive like that for however long?
Just enough that she could breathe out of her nose.
Yeah. Oh, my God. How are people this sick?
that's i like how are people this absolutely fucked in the head humans and she's human i like literally wanted yeah it makes me sick like my i've literally feel sick sick to my stomach in this one like sick to my stomach like that part oh i mean all of it is just but that for some reason is just the image of that like the the visage of that in my brain is i keep having to wipe it away to try to make it go away because I'm like just I know don't even try to conjure that image in your head because fortunately I've never I've never looked at any kind of crime scene thing about this no I could never
and I will not be doing that but the image my brain has conjured of that mask is a bad enough yeah I just I genuinely like how does your mind go there that's the thing I'm like who thought of that and how the fuck did they find each other dude yeah that's the the thing and procreated and to think that surely is in that state while there's what three four kids working on the house oh my god yeah like that and honestly like i'm not kidding you it makes my stomach turn no it's just a wild thing to imagine now by this point a pattern appears to have emerged where fred and rose are kidnapping and killing
at least one young woman every five Five or six months, at least. And with the exception of Lucy and Therese, most have come from, you know, dysfunctional upbringings, like trauma upbringings.
Unsurprisingly, the victim profile is almost certainly what allowed them to continue killing for as long as they did.
In fact, of the victims that went missing at the time, the murder of Lucy was described as, quote, the one that attracts the most anger.
Right, which is sad.
Yeah. And it was the one that received the most coverage because, and part of that was because of her uncle's fame as a novelist. Yeah, I wondered that.
So, had people slash the media expressed as much outrage over the other victims… It would have been different.
Many of them, you know, because nobody was really expressing as much anger because they disappeared.
We don't know where they went.
Well, they were a runaway.
And there's not a ton of family members contacting the media or getting in touch with anybody.
Because unfortunately, some of these girls just didn't even have anybody.
Exactly. They either didn't have anybody or the people they had had been through these moments of them disappearing for a little while.
So they were just like, well, you know, and then the media is like, well, they're a runaway.
What's the story? You know, like they probably just ran away.
And you know, they were in trouble.
The same person should always be a story.
Absolutely. and if again if people or the media had made or expressed any outrage about these victims it's possible that connections could have been made yeah more connections and connections to the west's themselves i mean maybe some of this carnage could have been avoided which is really frustrating but Juanita Mott was a lot like the other young women who had been picked up by Fred and Rose Yeah.
But in her case, they didn't abduct her because she was lodging in their home.
She was one of those lodgers.
Juanita's parents divorced when she was very young and her home life had been difficult.
When she reached her teen years, you know, the same kind of story.
She was described as rebellious, very, you know, defiant, very strong -willed.
And so she dropped out of high school and left home when she was just 15 years old and ended up bouncing around from, you know, one place to another, just kind of staying wherever she could.
Trying to get by. And that's finally when she found that cheap room for rent at 25 Cromwell Street.
And she moved in for just seven pounds per week.
And she had moved in during the summer of 1974.
Now, despite the cheap rent charged by Fred, Juanita's income was pretty inconsistent.
inconsistent. And so she kind of would like bounce out of the house into the house, like she could pay it sometimes, she couldn't pay it other times.
Right. And at the time of her disappearance in April 1975, Juanita was 18 years old and had been staying with a friend in the small town of Newent in Gloucestershire.
Since she was unemployed at the time and didn't have money for public transit, she often would hitchhike or rely on that kind of thing to get around.
And investigators believe that Fred and Rose would have regularly traveled through that place and they theorized that sometime on or around April 12th they must have passed by Juanita hitchhiking along the route stopped off for a ride and she was like oh I've lived in their house before I know them why would you think there's any danger you've literally lived in this house like why would you ever have strangers you're getting in a car with I know them so she would have no reservations about getting into a a car with them and probably wasn't even alarmed when they returned to the west's house rather
than going where juanita was headed yeah i'm sure they explained it away like i just have to grab this or you know whatever and she's like okay i know you guys it's fine yeah like no worries the prosecution said during rose's trial the conclusion is perfectly clear juanita was brought to cromwell street almost inevitably having been picked up whilst hitchhiking she died while she was being degraded either as being part of what her attackers found doubtless fun or because she could not be released afterwards doubtless fun because they they had fun they said they admitted that they found that's
the other thing it's crazy to have to like come across a story like this where people do these things and it's even crazier when they admit how much Such joy they got out of it.
That they had fun with someone in the most horrific terror you can ever imagine.
Like, your brain just doesn't comprehend how that's even possible.
Like, how are their brains capable of having fun when people are dying at your hands?
Like, I don't, obviously I don't get it.
No. I just and that that's why it's such a out of reality kind of thing when you look at it you're just like I don't I connect with this as another human being even because and this is like a silly example but it's just it's just the way when even on like TikTok when like you know like like you know stupid like parent influencers will like scare their child for likes yeah I hate that that like that's fucked up like fuck you if you do that agreed and I will get like so angry seeing that I'm like no not interested like I'm like yeah I always show me that interested because seeing a child even when I
know they're fine and they're they're not being their parent is doing this to just be a dick because they want their likes seeing fear on somebody's face like that especially a young person or sadness or any kind of like that will fuck me up yeah the rest of the the day like i'll be like i will think about that kid i don't know for like the rest of the fucking day even though they're perfectly safe likely and everything is felt like and that's because that's how we're designed as humans like you're supposed to feel empathy that kind of passion seeing someone in fear genuine fear seeing someone
in pain seeing someone sad seeing someone upset set that's supposed to that's supposed to make you stop what you're doing to think of some and to think of one person completely void of that finding another person completely void of that and teaming up is so beyond so much more than nightmarish I'm trying not to say beyond because I just keep saying it oh I didn't well it's honestly it feels like it just feels like like existential you know like it just feels like totally outside I can't it doesn't feel like we're on the same plane of reality which like I don't think we are no we're definitely
like I really don't I don't feel like we are all on the same plane of reality that Fred and Rosemary West of the world are on I feel like there's just some disconnect there I mean there's many disconnects but like there is I don't someday we'll know but like someday we'll find out what that that that disconnect is.
Because I just can't.
I can't. I can't. I cannot.
No. These kind of things are just like so fucked up.
We've been doing this for six years.
And it still absolutely blows my mind.
And it still will never, it will never fail to turn my stomach, these kind of stories.
And these specific kind of cases, like these really gruesome ones.
Like the Myra Henleys.
And especially, It's the couples that, like, for some reason really get me.
And even, like, the Albert Fish one, I think, because I have kids.
And, like, this one obviously has kids.
It just, it really sticks with you.
The people that are, like, just, the sadists who find enjoyment.
Yeah. You know, those are the ones that you're just like, that I don't even know if psychiatry can explain you.
I don't think anything can explain you.
Like, let's just go fully paranormal.
Honestly. honestly like this this is tough this one's been tough but don't worry we are gonna I'm kidding we're gonna take a little uh I I'm going to need a a paranormal case that's not as heavy I think yeah hopefully I can do it I always say that and then I end up being like sorry I'm doing a really awful case now yeah you've been hella brutal lately so maybe I'll find maybe I'll do like spooky road or spooky castle something something you know or survival tale there you go sometimes sometimes those are like sometimes we'll find something that you know I can I can take a second for the next one
yeah but now out of our any sense of being humanity here once they got back to the house investigators believed that Juanita was sexually assaulted and then was gagged with a ligature made from two of Rose's nylon socks and she was hog tied with plastic covered rope similar to that used on the washing line in the backyard they were both they were all found in her grave with her remains that's awful it's so weird to think of these people even like having socks and a washing line yeah they're just like having human things that's so human yeah on november 13th 2022 four university of idaho students
were murdered today finally the true story based on over 300 interviews in their own words family members talk about their heartbreak and grief students and townspeople describe that terrifying night police detail the dramatic investigation and arrest of brian coberger you've never read a true crime like james patterson and vicky wards the idaho four the true story it's finally here after she was killed fred dismembered juanita's body and buried her in the basement alongside the others um he also kept several of the bones again yeah by the time her remains were exhumed in 1994.
Too much time had passed to really say what the cause of death was, but a pathologist speculated that given the way the ropes were tied, because she was tied up like hogtied.
Yeah, which is so - He believes it was most likely strangulation that she was killed by.
But he said there was also an unusual fracture at the base of her skull that was caused by what he believes is a hammer.
Oh my God. But the angle at which it was inflicted would have prevented the amount of force necessary to kill her.
So that was just— So that would have not been the fatal blow.
Oh my god. Yeah. So she went through that fully alive.
Oh yeah, she went through horrors.
Yeah. They remind me of the toolbox murders a little bit.
yeah yeah um they did shit like this yeah torture now during their most prolific period in the early to mid 1970s local police were not entirely ignorant to fred and rose west like they were known yeah they had that whole fucking court case where the judge was like i think it's fine it's fine and in fact throughout the this period police often visited the house at cromwell street to to interrogate Fred about petty thefts or minor drug offenses that he was regularly committing at the time.
To think that they were just one floor above all of these missing girls.
And I'm like, no one questioned if that was a safe place for children.
I can't imagine that these people came off as stellar parents.
Like no one was thinking maybe just throw a report in.
Right. Like, I mean, these kids had already been dropped off often picked up from cps or foster care how many times nobody wanted to make like some kind of wellness check on those children if he's committing like offenses all the time and like even young 20 something year old nannies are like yeah the children seemed really like yeah completely different when the parents were around it's like you would think someone in law enforcement would notice that well in given the like frequency with which young women were disappearing at the time during this time period it's pretty fucked up that they never
suspected the wests of being involved especially considering their histories which we've already gone over that they got totally scot -free away with one yep and they had known connections to some of these missing girls yeah like it's not like they were entirely not all of them for sure like some of them really did And just vanish into thin air by all accounts and then were found later.
But there were a couple that like at least had connections.
I mean lived in their house, rented a room from them, worked for them as a nanny.
Like there were ones that you could, victims that you could sit there and say, okay, well there is a connection.
No one looked into it.
Do you think they did and it was just that they just didn't have the evidence?
I don't know. But I mean, I can do a search warrant.
It seems like shit was everywhere.
everywhere well and it did seem that the increased attention on fred's you know petty crimes at the time did seem to act as like somewhat of a deterrent for them um at least for a little while because after the murder of juanita three years passed before they killed again that we know of i was gonna say now fred and rose may have put a hold on the murders between mid 1975 and you know the middle of 1978 but that didn't mean that they stopped victimizing girls entirely We just don't know if they murdered anyone.
With an increased focus on missing women in the area, it would have been unwise on their part, if you're looking at it from their point of view, to keep abducting girls.
So instead, they shifted their attention to girls living at Jordan's Brook House, which was a home for troubled girls.
Nice. It was established in 1970 as kind of a last stop for teenagers who'd been kicked out of every other institution and foster home.
Right. This home was less of a care facility, and it was kind of like borderline juvenile detention center.
Oh. For Fred and Rose, these were precisely the type of vulnerable and emotionally fragile young women that Fred could manipulate.
Yep. In the summer of 1976, a 15 -year -old resident referred to only as Miss A moved into Jordans Brook after two years spent bouncing around between other placements.
Before that, she had lived with her biological parents, but was removed from the home once the authorities learned that she was actually being sexually abused by both her father and her brother.
Oh, my God. I mean, these poor girls.
Yeah. Like, again, just a life of knowing nothing.
Just going through it.
But awful shit. Yeah.
And, like, not having any home.
No. And by that point, Fred had made a habit of offering these girls rides whenever he saw them on the street.
I'm sure. Yeah, he was using this.
How philanthropic. And he would quickly become a shoulder to cry on for some of these girls and included Miss A.
Now, a few months after moving in, Miss A ran away from the school and went right to the West's house.
Because she probably had built a relationship with Fred.
Not like a romantic one.
Yep. But she was met at the door by Rose, who was dressed, quote, only in her bra and pants and made sexual advances towards Miss A.
Gross. It's unclear whether anything occurred at the time, but according to a court testimony given at Rose's trial, Miss A returned to the house a little over a month later.
And that's when she was talked into where she was sexually assaulted by Fred and Rose.
Yeah. According to that testimony, she was taken into a room where there were two other naked girls who she did not know.
After being undressed by Fred, the girls were secured with packing tape and sexually assaulted by both Rose and Fred.
Oh my God. Next, they taped Miss A to the bed and, quote, Frederick West had sexual intercourse with her while Rosemary West fondled her thighs.
i hate that they say he had sexual intercourse because that bothers me no he raped her he she's a 15 16 year old girl he raped her and she's taped to the bed what the fuck are you saying sexual intercourse with like he raped her they both raped her oh my god this is so horrible after the assault the girl was allowed to leave likely because fred and rose assumed that she wouldn't say anything about the attack probably that she didn't have anybody to tell who's she she gonna tell and she i'm sure they thought she wouldn't be believable anyway and she didn't she didn't tell anybody because she didn't
have anybody a few weeks later miss a returned to the house with a can of gasoline she'd taken from the gardening shed at jordan's brook intending to burn the house down but definitely say that he had sexual intercourse with her again yeah totally they raped her and she was fucking angry and i don't blame her for being angry and honestly i wish she had been able to yeah but she's a literal child yep she's a child so she lost her nerve when she reached the door and went back to jordansbrook wow when the prosecutor asked why she didn't report the assaults to anyone miss a said it was because quote
she felt ashamed and guilty oh which is so that's exactly what rose and fred want yeah they that's exactly what they want and that's what so many women and men feel when they're sexually assaulted yeah like you feel ashamed and that's what the abuser preys upon of course and that's well that's exactly what they do when fred and rose did decide to kill again they chose yet another victim who is unlikely to be reported missing it's unclear how they first met or how the relationship actually began in, but Shirley Ann Robinson was either 17 or 18 years old when she met Fred West in the spring of 1977,
and their relationship quickly became sexual.
Like many of the other victims, Shirley had come from a very difficult background and had been placed in foster care periodically throughout her entire life.
In April, she moved in with Fred and Rose, and at least initially, the sexual relationship was with both fred and rose and it was consensual according to all involved okay but things changed when shirley became pregnant with fred's baby and rose became abusive towards her like ann mcfall shirley who had been raised in chaos saw this baby as her ticket to stability possibility in a future with Fred.
It's the same kind of story.
It is. In November 1977, she wrote to her father in Germany to tell him all about her new relationship and even included a picture of her and Fred holding hands.
Wow. Saying, quote, this is the man I'm going to marry.
What do you think of him, dad?
I've never been so happy in my life.
Oh, no. Now, whatever she said in her private letters was one thing, but eventually Shirley began telling others in in the house that she and fred were going to be married which rose did not like uh -huh by late fall things in the west house had become wildly tense fred had begun working with froze's father to build a small cafe downtown which it's like so he's just building a cafe downtown no thank you don't you dare get anywhere near a cup of coffee no don't you do it and the two men plan to operate as a small business together.
But the stresses of that project had increased the fighting between Rose and Fred because they were pieces of shit and they hated each other in all actuality.
Neither one of them knows love.
No, no, no. That's not how that works.
And they had taken it out on Shirley as well.
By the time the cafe project was finished, Rose had successfully convinced Fred to end his relationship with Shirley.
At this point, their attitudes towards Shirley Shirley became very cold and very hostile.
Now, eventually the tension became too much and Shirley moved out of her room in the main house and started sleeping on the couch of another lodger, Liz Brewer, who lived on the second floor.
Okay, still at the house.
Yeah. One day in early May, Liz Brewer returned home to find Shirley and her belongings completely gone from the room.
So she asked Fred where she had gone and he told her she'd gone to visit relatives in Germany.
yeah given that shirley was more than eight months pregnant and her baby was due to be born the following month that seemed a little strange to liz that she would just be jumping on a plane eight months pregnant but she didn't know shirley that well so she didn't really question it that much because she was like okay like and she's probably seen all kinds of weird shit around this house she's like i'm not getting my nose in it now unlike the other murders which were were committed, you know, because they are fucked up and they got some kind of gratification, sexual and otherwise from them.
Investigators believe that the murder of Shirley Ann Robinson was committed because she presented a threat to Fred and Rose's relationship, according to Rose.
Yeah. While the other bodies appeared to have been dismembered in a methodical manner, Shirley's body appeared to have been, quote, hacked into pieces with either an axe or a cleaver.
and he's first of all he's able to do all of this to all of these women but there's a almost like fully grown baby in her belly yes like like people have babies at eight months like yeah he just killed a baby to his baby his own baby and like dismembered he just killed his own baby infant and dismembered yep both people yep what why did I not remember this Like, I've heard this case before.
I did not know any of this because I never looked this hard into the case until now.
I mean, I've heard it, like, told before.
I knew the overview of things.
I did not know all these details.
Wow. Once he had finished dismembering or hacking apart Shirley's body, Fred buried her in the back garden because he'd run out of space in the basement.
Okay. He had run out of space.
Ran out of space. now taking fred at his word that he that shirley had gone back to germany no one reported shirley missing and assumed she had just gone to visit family in germany that's where her family was yeah so no one here could can say otherwise a short time later when the department of social services reached out to shirley at cromwell street which was her last known address they were told told she no longer lived there.
The DSS worker on the case, Peter Gregson, just couldn't shake the feeling that something at the West House wasn't right.
That's a pretty solid feeling.
And he didn't believe the explanation he was given about her having gone back to Germany.
And he, but the problem was he had little authority to press the matter any further, and the case was closed.
But he was like trying.
He was like something's amiss.
By 1979, Fred was often preoccupied with the cafe at this point because now he's got a thriving business, everybody.
What the fuck? That's...
Yeah. What? Not a cafe.
Yeah, a cafe. And Rose was supplementing the income by engaging in sex work, which Fred would often watch through one of the various peepholes he'd installed in the walls of the room that Rose used to entertain clients.
Okay. so maybe it was this voyeurism that was enough to satisfy him for a little while but for whatever the reason, more than a year went by before they killed again and we're gonna stop there that's good because I'm about to break into pieces and it's more is coming so I'm gonna stop there before part four which is going to be the final part because it it needs to be the final part yeah okay so we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird bye bye oh my fucking god yeah Lamentations Lamentations Lamentations Lamentations Lamentations Lamentations Lamentations Lamentations Lamentations
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gorgeous, she's understanding, and she's literally perfect.
And she's not human.
That's right! Lily Rose is an AI companion, a computer program designed to be Travis's dream woman.
And at first, it seems like a perfect relationship.
But when Lily Rose's behavior starts getting strange, this love story takes a dark and twisted turn that no one saw coming.
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