Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret.
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Hey Weirdos, I'm Ash.
And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid.
this is morbid and we are in part two of Fred and Rosemary West oh god the fact that we're only on part two right now yeah just like all of the information in part one like all of the deranged diabolical information yeah and that's just one part y 'all this is gonna get so much worse one part y 'all these are horrible people these are very bad like these are very bad and i know i've said i said that in part one but i can't be stressed enough how bad this is and again another blanket trigger warning for horrific sexual abuse and assault and just really terrible things things they're terrible this is terrible
um i'm questioning myself for deciding to uh agree to do this but it takes an effect on your psyche it really does i'm not like it like i've said this before about other cases but i think this one is um akin to the myra hindley and ian brady one that like really that is a little bit of a toll this one's taken a toll and so i will be very glad when we wrap it up yeah but it's a story that needs to be told because it's horrific and these people a lot of their victims not all of them but a lot of them came from really dysfunctional trauma in their lives to begin with yeah and this is how they were taken
out of the world it's that's absolutely awful and that's what that's what kills me is it's like they they They went through all this awful trauma.
They were young, a lot of them, you know what I mean?
And some of them were their own children.
That part is just, I don't know why you have kids if you know that you're, I mean, probably because you know you're that evil.
Exactly. It's just, it's inconceivable, the whole thing.
And the other thing is that these children, and it's easy to forget when you're reading about all these horrible things that are happening to these you know girls and young women who they're picking up right that there's kids in the house and they're seeing most of the things that are going on in this house like it's a that's the stuff that's like all of it is really getting to me it's a tough one especially as a mother yeah there's just like a lot they're really and they're just really brutal these are really really brutal awful people who did awful awful things um but again we gotta that's It's
an important story to tell.
Yeah, absolutely. So this will be part two.
I'm thinking this is going to end up being four parts because there's just a lot of information.
And as much as there's a lot to digest in each part, this one, this part two is going to be heavy with information and heavy with some gnarly stuff.
So I don't want to just shove a lot of gnarly stuff into an episode.
so that things get lost and things, you know.
And I need a minute after, like, you know what I mean?
So, like, I'm going to try to break it, I think, into four just so we can have a second between each one.
And also, I think afterwards I'll try to do some kind of palette, like, actual palette cleanser for me and for you.
Yeah, we need to do that.
Because I'm certainly going to need it because this has been a tough one.
It really is like the Ian and Myra one to me.
Yeah, I know it's very reminiscent of that, absolutely.
Yeah, and after that one I really, I needed a minute.
i think everybody did and i think that was another four -parter yeah i think it was at least four parts so um so yeah so we'll we're gonna get through this and you know this is a very highly requested case it is uh and it's also you know not from the united states so it's one of those that you you don't know how many people know totally about it you might have heard the names but you don't know like the detail details yeah i didn't know a lot of these details so um the last we We left on we were talking about Fred finally meeting Rose.
Yeah, and he was still with his first what were they ever married the Rina Rina were they married?
They were married. Yep, and he's still with her at this point.
Yeah, but it's like it's so tumultuous.
There's so much happening.
Yeah, but this is really this is the moment is when he met Rose.
So let's talk about who Rose is.
You've heard her called by Rose and Rosemary.
Her full name is Rosemary Pauline Lutz.
And she was born in Northam Devon, England on November 29th, 1953.
Her parents were Bill and Daisy Lutz.
Interesting that her mother is also named Daisy.
Yeah, that is interesting.
Her mother's name is Daisy.
And it's just such a sweet name.
It is. I know. Like, you never expect anything bad from a Daisy.
No. She was described as remarkably unintelligent.
uh oh her siblings nicknamed her dozy rosy oh uh yeah and her brother andrew said quote she was as thick as two planks oh so as thick as two planks not not rolling with a lot apparently um in the years that followed their arrest like waited later down the line rose's siblings also described her as engagingly stupid dense and naive jesus oh and remarkably lazy so she's the total package there is no denying that roselette's early life was not great a lot of ridicule not a lot of affection not a lot of like you know um she was rarely told anything positive about herself which which as a child, that sucks.
And it's just not conducive to anybody growing up and being like a great person.
Yeah, it's just a bonus.
Obviously it happens and people find their way out of that.
But it's starting off on a rough foot.
Yeah. And some people can make it out of that rough foot, but some people can't.
And if there's already underlying shit there, which I'm sure there is in this case, then it's even worse.
Now, given that she had such an unfortunate upbringing and a really stunted social and intellectual development to work with, it's not really surprising that she would be drawn into a man like Fred West. Yeah.
In 1969, she was 15 years old.
Super young. Yeah. She was working at a tea shop around Bishop's Cleve, not far from where Fred and Rena were living at the time.
One night while she was waiting for the bus at the bus stop after work, Fred, this was his thing.
He loved a bus stop.
Loves a bus stop. He approached her and began talking to her, just making small talk, rose kind of tried to ignore him at first because she's 15 and he's a disgusting creep yeah so despite at the like despite later what happens where they end up having one of the most horrific and weird relationships you will ever hear about at this moment rose said thought he looked filthy he looked unkempt like just really gross and he He was being like lewd and lascivious, like just wasn't anything to be attracted to.
Spot the lie. Which, and also it's like your first instinct is true.
Yeah, follow that gut feeling.
Follow that. But when you find out who Rose is later, you're like, oh, monster beget monster.
Like just, she's horrific as well.
Do you think that she always had the potential to be horrific, or do you think that this relationship brought it out in her?
I think the relationship, and obviously this is just me like...
make speculating but i think the relationship definitely opened the doors for her that this was okay behavior and like harvest somebody was saying yes and giving her somebody was giving her encouragement and validation positive but but i don't think it's that's not to take any responsibility away from her because she enjoyed herself yeah and it's like she did horrific shit she had a really nasty nasty streak inside of her that i think was just it was brewing to something bad so that that leads you to believe that it was always there and that like you said the door was just yeah i think monster
just met monster the door was there and they were able to to kind of run free together as monsters i think that's really what it comes comes down to she's a she's young at this point so I don't even think she knew the depths of her own depravity yeah but I think it was in there yeah I think this older piece of shit was able to draw it out of her but I think it was there but who knows who knows if it would have been drawn out yeah other than that nobody can say you know unfortunately um but yeah it was not a good good first impression rose would describe the experience experience to a classmate
actually and went as far as to say that fred's fred had a leering smile and that his smile was all ganky and green green yeah green yeah no mama now despite how she felt about him after their first encounter fred did win her over what yeah he repeatedly see like sought her out at the bus stop he went back and back and back and he eventually won her over she really loved a determined man yeah so rose had never really had any close friends and was accustomed to negative attention right from her siblings and peers so the attention from fred who is an older man is probably being i mean he he was disgusting
in the way that he would approach women especially in young girls so I I think she just this is the only positive attention that she's getting it's like what she was used to she found it flattering and there was something that and she described it and this is like they're horrifying yeah of course she said that he was inherently sexual and that excited her which you look at Fred West and you're like what and again Fred had gotten had been doing this for a long time a long time since he was as a teenager like he's been preying on young girls and he's been a predator for a long time so he's gotten
very good at grooming his young victims and honestly like and he he could say these horrible things but he has groomed them into thinking this is flattery right but rose was excited by it and actually appeared kind of to welcome his crude behavior and language language now and usually when fred would do this he would come across a lot of um resistance to that kind of behavior and that kind of language because a lot of young girls are like you're gross get the fuck away from me but he was like shocked by this now this probably seemed as like a little game to rose at first because she was very unhappy
she had a lot of low self -esteem so this was probably just like a fun little like he's paying attention to me yeah and later after After the arrest, Rose's brother Andrew said, quote, her idea of being grown up was going out with someone a lot older.
And so this makes sense.
Right. He said it didn't – he was basically saying that it didn't even bother Rose that Fred was married.
She knew that. Like, Rose didn't care.
But he also – like, so he drew her in with that, like, I'm married.
But then he said Rina had left him with two small children and was working as a sex worker in Glasgow.
So he was playing both sides.
He paints the picture that he wants people to see.
Exactly. But the truth was that at the time that he met her, Rena was just visiting family in Glasgow.
Like just away for a little bit.
Yeah, just like away, visiting family.
And apparently, Rose at this time really loved kids, which is really horrifying when you think of later what happens.
And who she becomes.
but it's and and um dave brought this up and i thought it was a really good thing to point out she loved kids because she didn't have any responsibility to kids yeah kids are great when you can when they're not like when you're 15 and you get to play with a baby for a little while yeah you know what i mean like that's it but when she had to be in charge sacrifice and had to be responsible that's a whole different story changed um but because fred had charmaine and anne marie who were two young girls that only made him more attractive to her because look he has two kids and i get to be like play
mom for a little while and that's the thing their mom is still very much part of their life at this point so she gets to put that hat on and take it off when she wants exactly she doesn't have to be and they're not even married at this point either so she can come and go as she pleases exactly and play mommy now in time rose started lying to her parents telling them that she had found work as a cleaner when in fact she was spending all her time with fred eventually she introduced fred to her parents how'd that go he tried to be charming to them but they were like absolutely not like what the fuck
uh daisy let's said immediately we thought he was an older man he was 27 but he did not look young for his age can confirm also what the fuck are you doing at 27 years old 27 i am 27 years old with a 15 that's disgusting if that actually like makes me physically yeah it makes my stomach literally churn that's literally a sophomore in high school yeah and this is just how he he's foul like what do you have in common nothing he doesn't need anything good no and he doesn't that's the thing you guys i tried my mochi ice cream the other day and i was lifted off of this planet into just another galaxy
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Hey there, my weird weirdos.
I want to take a minute to recommend another podcast called Who Took Misty Copsey?
In September of 1992, 14 -year -old Misty Copsey leaves the Washington State Fair with her best friend and is never seen again.
Her body is never found.
At the time, western Washington is home to prolific serial killers like the Green River Killer, which leads to different theories on who's responsible for what happened to Misty.
Over the course of eight episodes, host and cold case investigator Sarah Kalin speaks with Misty's friends and family, looks at police records, and different anonymous tips to try to figure out if Misty's disappearance is the work of a serial killer or someone who knew her.
No suspects are ruled out.
After 33 years, Sarah Kalin hopes to answer the question, who took Misty?
You guys are going to love this.
If you listen to Morbid, we know that you love a cold case, and we always tell you, a cold case is never cold.
So definitely give this a listen.
Definitely look into the case, listen to Who Took Misty Copsey wherever you get your podcasts.
now after that initial meeting Rose's parents were like no we don't like him this is fucked up and they said they demanded that she stopped seeing him but there was very little they could do to stop the relationship because she had agreed to take on full -time work as nanny to Fred and Rose's children that always goes so well now this is like my biggest fear having children when they get to the age where like they can bring somebody home and you can say no fucking way but you kind of can't but that's like not having that control yeah of like I just need to let you make mistakes but like some of these
mistakes can be life -altering and I don't want you to do that like thinking of some of the like people even that I dated when I was like not 15 but like a little bit older oh my god and here honestly even hearing your opinions I mean like fuck off yeah but then like knowing that like I'm gonna go through that with my kids they're gonna be like fuck off I'm I'm like, oh.
No, I know. I think of like.
Because when you're young, you don't.
You don't see it. Sorry to go on like such a tizzy with this, but when you're young, you don't see it.
No, you don't. Like you don't see through the adult eyes of like how bad things could possibly go.
Because you just don't have the experience under your belt.
And you're invincible.
Exactly. You like. Yeah, nothing can happen to me.
Exactly. And he's nice to me sometimes.
Uh -huh. So that's all that matters.
You know? Exactly, exactly.
Oh, it's so scary. I know.
No. Now, frustrated with their daughter's relationship, Bill and Daisy Letts reported to police that their teenage daughter was having a sexual relationship with an adult and suspected she was also being forced into sex work at the caravan park.
Oh, man. So, good on these parents at this moment, at least at Daisy Letts, for reporting this.
Yeah. And not just being like, well, whatever.
Well, what can I do?
Because especially at this time, a lot of stories you hear is that parents are just like, well, you know, let them make their mistake.
What was I going to do?
But the report prompted a brief investigation, and in the summer of 1969, Rose was removed from the home and placed in a home for troubled girls, which she described as being like a prison.
Yeah. Which, absolutely.
It's sad, too, that that's the solution, but it's almost never a better place.
It almost always makes it worse.
But despite all of this, Rose continued seeing Fred.
She was sneaking out of the home whenever she could, and especially when she knew Rina wouldn't be at home.
In fact, throughout this whole period, Rina had carried on life much as she had while Fred was having an affair with Anna McFall, just kind of bouncing back and forth between Gloucestershire and Glasgow with only like a little bit of a naive awareness of what was going on.
That's really sad. In November 1969, Rose turned 16 years old and was released from the home and returned to her parents for a brief period of time and then moved in with Fred to an apartment that he started renting after once again placing his children in foster care.
I don't understand how you can just place them and then get them back and then place them again.
that it's like like if you oh yeah I don't know it's well but Bill and Daisy Letts spent months trying to convince their daughter to end the relationship culminating in their making another report to the police they were not letting this go good for them so this time though investigators arranged for Rose to be examined by a doctor and in February 1970 learned that she was pregnant with Fred's baby yeah I was waiting for that now due to the pregnancy and her refusal to leave fred rose was placed in another troubled girl's home um a month later rose was released from the home after agreeing to
end the pregnancy and her relationship but instead of returning to her parents she moved into fred's apartment oh no there was really nothing else that bill and daisy felt like they could do so they told her if you continue this relationship with fred rest you are no longer welcome in our home that's so tough and we have to think of like what it took to get to at that point because we know these big major events but i'm sure there were smaller things probably many little ones in between now in october rose gave birth to a girl she named heather but any joy that she felt about a new baby was pretty
short -lived because just a couple months after heather was born fred was arrested for stealing car parts and he of course immediately blamed it on reena but he was sentenced to eight months in prison not only did fred's jail sentence entirely disrupt this whole romanticized fantasy for the future that rose had concocted but it also meant that at just 17 years old she was now a single mother for not one but three children oh my god now for rose who was still a teenager remember yeah what's 17 yeah the whole affair with fred likely seemed adventurous romantic you know fantasy exactly the kind of dramatic
scenario that could easily could distract and eventually free her from the environment that she felt like she was living in yeah however having been effectively disowned by her family and temporarily separated from fred the consequences of her actions and decisions were starting to become um unavoidant yeah at this point um and are unavoidable i should say excuse me and they were not as romantic at this time than she was initially thinking they would Being 17 years old and a single mother to three children.
Yeah. 17. Think of who you were at 17.
Yeah, no. And, like, obviously people do it, and it's fucking remarkable, but, like.
It's literally remarkable.
But. But being thrust into that.
Couldn't. I can't even fathom.
I could not. Now, at first, she loved the idea of being in a relationship with a man who had children.
Like I said, she loved kids.
Because she never had any true responsibility to Charmaine or Anne -Marie.
right now unfortunately once she'd left her parents home for good and was responsible for three children 24 7 she quickly learned that it's a lot harder than it looks especially to go into it with three yeah not just one like one is hard enough but three yeah now according to rose um anne marie was a very quiet very easy what she described as a docile child oh which i don't love that being a way to describe a child.
That seems like a word for an animal.
Yeah but she said that Charmaine was often willful and defiant.
Probably because she knew her dad hated her.
Yeah and also she wasn't responding well to Rose being her new authority figure.
Who the fuck is this?
Well and at this point how many has she had?
And also well and Charmaine is like eight.
Yeah. At this point like she's like where's my mom?
Who are you? Now so the two of them Rose and Charmaine definitely Definitely clashed way more.
And Rose always felt so frustrated, and she would tell Fred about it.
And things only got worse once Fred went to prison, and Rose was solely responsible for the girls, because she just wasn't up for the task.
She wasn't a mother.
Not long after he went to prison, Rose began resorting to physical punishment whenever Charmaine would act out or defy her.
That's all. um neighbors would recall for rose frequently berating charmaine in public and often saw evidence of the physical abuse on charmaine's body oh that makes you sick so like fuck off um but no matter what rose did and this is really really sad and i just need to warn you but it shows you how broken these poor children were no matter what she did charmaine refused to cry Oh.
And that only made Rose angrier.
And to know that at like eight years old, she knows like, fuck you, I'm not going to cry.
Well, and her sister, Anne Marie, was said, she felt like if she cried, she was giving in.
At eight. At eight years old to think that way.
Like, that's your kids.
That's my nieces. It like, this is what, this case is just. Just to put that into context, that's a second grader.
That's a second grader.
that's refusing to cry because they don't want to give you the satisfaction because they hate you so much and they know to have that kind of satisfaction already deserved hate like like you should hate this person but it's literally but to know that kind of hate at eight years old they should never know that kind of hate for anyone at eight years old like you shouldn't even know the feeling of hate at that point no like life shouldn't have given you that feeling feeling yet nope it just kills me now in March 1971 just days after Charmaine's eighth birthday Rose took her to a Gloucester Royal Hospital
for treatment of a rather serious puncture wound on her leg a puncture wound and Rose said it was an accident what but it's like what the fuck did you do exactly what yeah now in May Rose sent a letter to Fred while he's in prison where she said that that she believed that Charmaine's poor behavior and defiant attitude was beginning to affect Anne -Marie's behavior.
She said, quote, you can see Char coming out in Anna now, and I hate it.
And her frustration can be seen in several of the letters after that.
But on visits to the prison, they did everything in their power to look like they were one big happy family because she forced those kids to pretend that they liked her.
In front of prison officials.
Because we don't want them knowing.
Also, you didn't have to have these kids.
You brought them to foster care how many times at this point?
Seriously. You almost think it, like, foster care is no fucking joke, but you almost think it would have been better.
I know. I mean, probably not, but.
It's all, this, it's just, ugh.
It's so many varying degrees of horrific.
It really is. Now, on a June 15th visit to Fred in prison, Rose was elated to learn that he might get paroled.
The following week, and five days later, Charmaine went missing.
What? What? Rose has never said what happened to Charmaine.
And she was eight. Eight.
But during her trial, the prosecutor told the jury, quote, there is clear evidence that Charmaine was greatly disliked by Rosemary West and that she had been abusive towards the girl in the past. One afternoon shortly before Fred's return home, Anne -Marie, her sister, Charmaine's sister, returned home from school to find Rose at home and not Charmaine.
And when she asked where Charmaine was, Rose told her Charmaine had gone to live with her mother.
In truth, investigators do believe that sometime in late June, Rose lost her temper like she always did with Charmaine and inadvertently, possibly, killed the child.
Wow. And did her, what happened with Reena?
Like she never? Oh, don't worry, we'll find out.
Now when Fred was finally paroled on June 24th And returned home Rose led him down to the basement Where she had left Charmaine's body Fred removed Charmaine's body from the basement And buried her in a grave he dug in the backyard Of their rented home on Midland Road His 8 -year -old daughter That he had never, ever loved or treated well Like that poor girl just knew hatred Her entire 8 years of life All she knew was horror Oh my god Yeah And the fact that it gets worse, that's beyond.
Yeah, it's beyond comprehension, it really is.
I hate this case. Although she had been out of the picture for some time, Rena was obviously very anxious about the welfare of her children and would frequently check in with Fred's family and hope that they would give her some information because she was basically being pushed out of the whole scenario.
By the summer of 1971, Rena got so anxious and she was so alarmed with Fred's family unable to give her any information about her daughters that she decided to go to Fred and Rose's apartment and demand that he give her the girls.
It was sometime in late August that she showed up at Fred's door, and he just flatly refused to let her see either of the girls.
So in desperation, she threatened to go to Fred's father, Walter, for help.
And that's when he said, sure, and he agreed to take Rena to see Charmaine.
oh no now like some of the earlier crimes fred denied playing any part in reena's murder so details of the murder are murky but investigators believe that reena got into fred's car expecting to be taken to see her daughter but instead he drove her to a local pub where he got her incredibly drunk what happened next is again we only have what we can go on but investigators speculate that based on the state of rena's remains that were recovered from a shallow grave in letterbox field which is not far from where anna mcfall's remains were buried interesting investigators believe that fred left the bar
with rena who was by then too drunk to really put up any kind of fight and he strangled her and dismembered her body and placed her remains in two plastic bags that he buried in the field when she was exhumed they also discovered a a narrow piece of chromium pipe and a red plastic child's boomerang in the grave with her.
Because so much time had passed and because Fred refused to take any responsibility for the crime, no official cause of death could be determined and investigators could never conclusively link him to the crime.
That's so frustrating because it's so clear.
But he obviously did it.
Now, in the months that followed, no one came looking for Rena West or even seemed to notice that she was missing.
because she also came from like an awful background he surrounded himself with people like that so he could take advantage of them Rina had spent most of her life like we said in and out of trouble bouncing back and forth between Gloucestershire and Glasgow and so it wasn't entirely out of her character to disappear for stretches of time without really telling anyone where she was going with Charmaine and Rina out of the way now for good and Fred and Rose bonded over their fucking disgusting way way of existing, and their shared secrets at this point, they were free to finally marry and begin building
the family Rose had always dreamed of.
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She literally murdered his child.
Like, obviously, Charmaine was not his child.
Yeah, but like his child for all intents and purposes.
He blamed her and was like, I know you can't have Irina.
And then she rose murdered a little eight -year -old.
He comes home from prison and finds that.
Then they kill her mom.
And then they say, let's get married.
so we can finally start our family let's start our family now that we've gotten rid of everybody that wasn't our family yeah what yeah and poor anne marie like is like where's my sister where's my mom and she goes through it she really goes through god it's really awful but over the course of this life fred rust had come to realize that people and women in particular would resist or or, you know, recoil from the things that he liked when it came to sex and violence.
Like, he couldn't find people that really dug what he was into because he was a different brand.
But with Rose, Fred seemed to have found a kindred spirit.
Oh. Yeah. Now, of course it's possible, since she's 17 at this point, that, you know, she was just going along with things, like his plans and indulging his interests and the more extreme fetishes and things that were going on just to keep him happy.
But it can't be said enough that there is a lot of solid evidence that shows that Rose enjoyed this as much as he did.
Like there's a lot, there's solid evidence that suggests that she was very much a part of this and was not being dragged along for the ride.
now fred had never been especially shy about his extreme interests that's it you almost don't even want to call it a fetish that's the thing because i'm like i don't even know how to explain it's well i guess there's a difference between a fetish and a kink that's the thing and it's well and also his was like a derangement like he wasn't doing things with consent yeah that's the thing and it's like that's not his is like that's not a kink that's not a fetish that's something entirely entirely different like the whole point of that kind of stuff is consent right I feel like that's a large part
of that yep which can't be stated enough like you know what I mean like this doesn't represent like a BDSM situation because there's no consent or anything like that yeah it's like that so that doesn't represent this here at all this is very much like its own sadistic awful shit it's sinister so he had never been shy about this like he'd been pretty open about it but but he had also become aware that others would probably find a lot of these things unacceptable.
Well, and I think that's probably another part of it that he found joy in.
He liked that people thought it was gross.
Yeah. But in Rose, he found someone who's not only not shocked by his interests, but at times was interested in pursuing them with him.
And in the months after Rena's murder, Fred and Rose began engaging in threesomes that were allowing Rose to decide how far she wanted to take this whole thing.
And it began when Fred and Rose propositioned a neighbor who they became friendly with, and they knew this neighbor was lonely, so they knew that they would likely agree.
And soon they made a habit of going out at night to pick up especially young women.
Like, not of age. That's the thing.
Like, this is not, this is not, there's no consent being had here.
and it was during these encounters that they began exploring what they would later call like snm and bondage but it's not that that's not what they are like that's not what they are there's again there's no consent right this is just sinister awful shit right um but unfortunately this brand of what they were into would become kind of a hallmark of their murders and their crimes mm -hmm and which is what makes them so shocking now on january 29th 1972 fred and rose were married in a small ceremony at the gloucester register office with only fred's brother john there to be a witness very few people
were made aware of the marriage at all and those that were that who were aware of it none really brought up the fact that like he was still legally married to reena yeah there is that whole part of it and even in the paperwork his first marriage is really not even referenced also was anyone asking where charmaine was like everyone just accepted that like did they think she like ran away i think the whole idea that he put out there and why he got rid of reena as well as he said reena has charmaine and i don't know where either one of them are and she just like left yeah with us she just yep cool
just took charmaine and by got it now a few few months later after they got married rose became pregnant and they both decided well we're gonna have a larger family so let's get a larger house and this is when they moved from their small rental on midland road into a much larger house at the very infamous at this time 25 cromwell street this is where the majority of their murders would take place and i think anybody living in this part part of the world, knows that address and is probably getting a shiver down their spine hearing that address.
Has their house been demolished?
Yeah, I think it's gone.
I thought so, yeah.
Thank goodness. Yeah.
Now, at first, Fred agreed to rent the modest Cromwell Street house from their landlord of their previous home, but eventually he bought the property outright.
In order to supplement their income, Fred and Rose decided to convert one of the floors into a room for rent kind of situation.
Yeah. Typically, these situations were more like a roommate scenario where a person would rent a room in a house, but that gave them access to the kitchen, bathroom, you know, so on.
The, like, main, like, shared living spaces.
In this case, though, Fred wanted to keep the West's living space entirely separate from that that was used by any lodgers that were renting, so he installed a kitchen and a wash area on one of the landings.
He didn't want them coming into the main house for reasons we now know.
Yeah, gee, I wonder why.
Now being in an area popular with students, it really didn't take long for Fred and Rose to find lodgers.
In the spring of 1972, 18 -year -old Benjamin Stanaland moved into the West's home, and he shared a room there with his friend Alan Davis.
And as they would often do, Fred and Rose wasted no time here testing the boundaries with their new lodgers.
That became their thing.
Testing boundaries.
Somebody would come into their life and they would test those boundaries and see how far those people would let them go.
And if they wouldn't let them go far enough that they wanted to go, they would just force themselves upon them.
But they like to see if somebody would let them.
Now, so it began with Rose sneaking into these boys' bedrooms not long after they moved in and having sex with both of them.
Like, having sex with, or?
According to her, consensual sex. Okay.
okay and she apparently and even benjamin stanaland who was 18 at the time said later that she discussed it with fred and he didn't seem to mind all righty now around yeah we thought it was weird that like the black sisters just watch people sleep yeah that seems downright wholesome at this point it sure does now around that time benjamin stanaland began dating a local girl 17 -year -old linda goff and like many girls that we're going to hear about in this story linda had a very difficult childhood and also likely had an intellectual disability of some sort that actually made it so that she had
to attend a school for children with learning disabilities oh wow by the time she was in her mid -teens though linda had according to those around her become very defiant and at 16 she dropped out of school and she ended up finding job as a seamstress at a local dress shop her mother said later she made it clear to us that what she did was her business okay it was through benjamin that linda met fred and rose west a few months earlier fred's son stephen had come to live with the west making the very pregnant rose responsible for three children and in june rose gave birth to a girl they named may oh
yes may May West. Oh, I didn't even think of that.
That would bring the total to four children in this house now.
I was like, wait, when did he even have a son?
Yeah, he's everywhere.
Now, Fred and Rose suggested that Linda come on as their full -time nanny in exchange for room and board, an offer she would eventually and very unfortunately accept.
Now, Fred and Rose had obviously committed acts of violent assault and murder prior to 1972 but for the most part these acts seemed like they were opportunistic, accidental, or what they claim is accidental, I should say, quote -unquote, or how they saw as solving a problem, like Anna McFall, Reena West. And while they had begun exploring their interests and different sexual interests with others but again they did so sometimes with consent but oftentimes not and even when there was consent they were very much blurring the boundaries on more than one occasion yeah like sneaking into someone's room
and then having like that already not super consensual there's just some there's a lot of blurred lines happening even when they're claiming because they love love to claim later that like no i hope everybody just wanted to have sex with us and it's like no i don't think so um they're literally depraved humans like that that can't be stated enough here and by the end of 1972 they began going down a road that just escalated into horror pure horror in late november set 1972 fred and rose were on their way to the local pub when they saw a young young woman, hitchhiking on the road.
And this is the 70s, remember?
Right. Never one to pass up a potential opportunity, Fred pulled the car over and asked this woman, 17 -year -old Caroline Owens, where she was going.
She was trying to thumb a ride home, which was nearly 25 miles in the opposite direction.
But Fred said, hey, come on in.
We can give you a ride.
And she accepted. And a lot of times they were able to get people in the car because they saw things like a car scene, right?
Oh, yeah, and sometimes they had the kids in the car.
Good. Awesome. As they drove, they all chatted about Caroline's life.
She was one of 15 children.
Wow. And apparently, according to her, she hated living at home.
She said she really didn't like her stepfather, and she was just very unhappy.
And she had recently started looking for a new job and a new place to live.
So without hesitation, Fred and Rose said, Oh my goodness, we need a new nanny for our children.
They don't need one.
They just asked Linda to be their nanny.
They literally just got one.
And they offered the job to Caroline, who said, awesome, I'll think it over.
So Caroline called the Wests, because they do play a long game sometimes.
Caroline called the Wests a few days later and said after talking it over with her mother, she would accept the job.
But almost immediately after moving in, Caroline was like, what the fuck is this?
She didn't have a room to herself.
She was actually sharing a room with eight -year -old Anna.
Weird. And Caroline liked the West children.
She was like, they were great, but she was like, Anna's very sad.
She's eight years old.
And she lost her mom and her sister.
And she said, and she was quoted as saying, she was withdrawn when Fred and Rose were around.
And that tells you a lot.
So she withdrew very much when they were around.
But she said the most horrifying and off -putting thing in this house was Fred and Rose themselves.
yourselves she said at times it seemed rose would intentionally invade her privacy in moments where she was like going to the bathroom like taking a shower like she would just walk into the room like intentionally yeah she would touch her legs while they were talking like she was very like gropey and gross yeah and like they did with many of their victims fred and rose were testing to see how far they could take it um whenever they were alone together fred would would talk about sex in a very crude and aggressive way and sometimes he would reveal very unsavory and like very scary things to her
but then he would backtrack it so he would see how she would react and then take it back right and it she said and so caroline said rose wasn't like it didn't appear threatening to her like she was like something about another woman you know what i mean like you're supposed to feel a little like oh she's fine you know and she was like Like, but I really disliked Fred.
She was like, Rose was, like, weirding me out, but I was threatened by Fred.
Yeah, I could see that.
She said, he was a little man with a big head.
And she said, he was so cocky, a know -it -all.
And then she said, he also clearly took pleasure in making her feel very uncomfortable.
Ew. That seemed to be his thing.
And between that and Rose's increasingly very overt and very aggressive sexual, like, touching of her, after just a few weeks, Caroline was like, I'm leaving.
even yeah like gotta go like fuck that can you imagine knowing afterwards what she avoided it gets it gets worse caroline doesn't get out like scot -free oh i didn't know that yeah unfortunately now caroline leaving the house was a great disappointment to rose who had actually developed like a strong attraction to caroline and she was angry like she was very angry felt Seltz slided.
She told Fred if Caroline wouldn't have sex with her willingly, then they were going to force her.
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now the couple quickly came up with a plan that they were going to kidnap caroline and bring her back to the house and on december 6th they went into action they drove around gloucester all afternoon together tracking caroline's movements what the fuck and a little after 10 p .m caroline was hitching a ride from her boyfriend's house and fred and rose pulled up and offered her a ride oh god and you know she was probably like i'm good well and she was like i was definitely uncomfortable with both of them on more than one occasion but they'd never made her like overtly feel like she was in danger
she just felt icked out by them she was like they're fucking weird but like i don't think they're gonna do anything to me exactly so she accepted oh no because she said it was also very late and it was very cold so it didn't take long though before Fred and Rose steered the conversation towards sex. And Fred asked whether Caroline had had sex with her boyfriend that evening.
And she was like, this is weird. I'm not answering your question.
Like, what the fuck?
Like, that's not your fucking business.
And then she looked around and realized, we're not going in the direction of my house, which I can't imagine that feeling.
And to make matters worse, Rose was trying to touch her as this was happening, even though she was telling her repeatedly stop.
Oh, God. This is such a nightmare.
Now her panic turned to sheer terror when Fred parked the car in an empty field far from the city center.
Oh god. Rose began attacking her and she said it was her, she was like the way she looked at me is like animalistic.
And Fred turned around to face her, called her a bitch and started repeatedly punching her in the face until she lost consciousness.
When she regained consciousness, she found that her hands had been tied behind her back, and Rose was wrapping brown packing tape around her head.
Oh, my God. So she was panicking.
Fred started the car again and drove back to the West's house on Cromwell Street, where they spent the evening terrorizing, torturing, and violently assaulting Caroline.
oh god this poor girl and all because she just was like yeah i don't want to work with you anymore yep and because i don't want to have sex with you rose yeah that that part too because when everything was done they acted like nothing happened took the tape off and then fred said rose is like this when she's pregnant because rose is pregnant no that's something out of a fucking horror film also the fact that i mean the fact that they wrapped her head in plastic packing tape is that what you said like a brown packing tape yeah which begins that's like one of their hallmarks they do to people you
get through all of that and he just nonchalantly is like yeah rose gets sadistic when she's pregnant and then to think of like an unborn baby like being there for all that is so fucking weird and the kids are in the house house they could have seen this girl be carried in with packing tape on her face oh my god yeah that place really is a house of like that that doesn't even do it justice no and it's been described as that many many times the house of horrors because what else do you even i mean what else because it truly is i mean it's a house of horrors like that is a i can't think of a worse
house than this but caroline played along at this point in hopes that she might be able to escape smart she went as far as helping them clean up the house after everything oh my god after being violently assaulted when they finished cleaning she played with heather and anna for a little while because they were there oh my god and to yeah i can't imagine yeah after all that sitting down on the floor and playing with their children to play with the kids and she told fred and rose that she would love to return as their nanny and then agreed to join them at the laundromat because she was just trying
like that's survival that's just like i gotta do what i gotta do to get the fuck out of here that's on another level of survival and that's on some disassociation and then to get back in a car with them and hope you're going to the laundromat so they did they drove to the laundromat and as soon as they parked caroline saw the opportunity jumped out as soon as the door was open and yelled i'll see you tomorrow and just ran and when she made it home caroline's mother immediately knew something was wrong with her daughter of course which was very obvious by just talking to her but also she had bruising
and other injuries on her arms and legs from the whole thing and caroline remembered though that fred told her i'll kill you if you tell anyone so she was reluctant to say what had happened but in time she did tell her mother and her mother immediately reported the assault to police now this should be be it right that should be the end of fred and rosemary west a hundred thousand gajillion percent but it's the 70s so when investigators showed up at fred and russ and rose's door a few days later their questioning was met with just denials and defiance like what the fuck are you talking about and in cases
like this particularly in a pre -feminist era it was just a matter of one person's word against another it's like look at her injuries yeah so rose felt confident that the the accusations would really, nothing would come of them.
So she said, sure, you can search my car.
They searched in the car and they found a button from Caroline's coat and a partially used roll of packing tape, which lined up with what she said.
So the Wests were brought in for further questioning and both eventually admitted to the entire thing.
Wait, they admitted to that?
Yep. And then? The case went to trial in early January and the defense was relentless in their attempts to completely undermine the charges and minimize the severity of the whole thing.
But y 'all, they admitted to it.
Oh, well, they used the defense that was used in many a sexual assault case.
Caroline was just framed as having offered passive cooperation.
What? And was characterized as a willing participant.
Yeah, totally a willing participant and having my fucking head wrapped in packing tape.
And Fred and Rose are just a harmless couple who maybe got, like, a little impulsive.
That's all. all maybe got a little impulsive yeah so just after a few days the judge if if we can call this person a judge not the honorable um considered the evidence and said quote we do not think that sending you to prison will do you any good and then gave them a fine of 25 pounds and said bye go back to your home with your children you yeah you know what caroline had to say about that and i don't blame her it made me feel like i wasn't worth anything that's awful that she felt that way after everything and honestly fuck that judge fuck fred and rosemary like fuck you guys fuck that judge
can you imagine putting you in prison will do you any good how you feel about that yeah no how'd that pan out honestly i hope i would every fucking day say if i knew that judge i would literally just walk up to him every day once a day and just say we do not think it will that sending you to prison will do you any good i would say it once a day and then just turn your head and go widen your eyes like that yeah and then i come back again the next day at noon and say the same thing for the rest of his life but poor caroline too because you hear about this all the time it's like people put their
faith in the legal system and like yeah a lot of times luckily Luckily, it does pan out.
But the times where it doesn't, and especially way back when, and to sit in that scene and realize there's nobody going to protect me from stuff like this.
No one's going to help me.
This could happen to me again and this very thing could pan out just like this.
And they'll just claim that I said it was okay and everybody will just believe them.
How scary. Like that's - How scary.
Horrifying. How do you come to terms with that?
Horrifying. And how do you go about living the rest of your life without being the most paranoid individual even if that's already happened to you and regardless of a judgment but then to put the judgment yeah hand in hand with that the emotional damage that comes after that i can't even conceive of for life in my worst nightmares i can't conceive of it and these people just say sure you two go back to your home with your four kids like what the fuck is wrong with you it's gross.
So, with each new act of depravity that they committed, Rose proved to Fred that she was as much a willing participant in the violence that as he was.
Like, every time, he was like, I saw it more and more that she was just as into this.
I don't know that. I mean, it doesn't really sound like what happened to Caroline would have if Rose didn't feel how she felt.
No. And it was the assault on Caroline Owens that demonstrated to Fred that Rose's limits and tolerance for violence were actually far greater than he anticipated.
I don't think the limit existed.
It does not. In fact, when Fred was interviewed by police in 1994, he admitted that the assault almost certainly would have ended in Caroline's murder, but she managed to escape before they could.
Yeah. He was like, we were gonna kill her.
A hundred percent. Not a doubt in my mind.
And they decided, he said, we decided then and there that that was the last time we would let that happen.
Her escaping. Wow. So, Fred and Rose turned their attention back to Linda to Goff.
And that's their new nanny.
Now, by early 1973, Linda was no longer having a relationship with the lodger Benjamin at the West House or any of the other ones.
And her job as a seamstress wasn't really going well.
And so when Rose suggested that she move into their house and become the full -time nanny, she jumped at the opportunity.
In late April, Linda's mother June returned home one afternoon to find that Linda had packed up all her things and left. And she She had left a note that said, Dear Mom and Dad, please don't worry about me.
I've got a flat and I will come and see you sometime.
Love, Lynn. Now, it's unclear exactly how things unfolded once Linda moved into the West House, and this was in the last week of April, but she was there less than a month.
So things escalated pretty quickly.
When the Cromwell Street house was eventually excavated after the arrests, tests linda's body was discovered alongside a quote mask of wound adhesive tape they made a mask out of it similar to the one that had been wrapped around caroline owens face and head and investigators found several of linda's hairs stuck in the tape oh my leading them to conclude that she had been abused in a very similar way to caroline yeah the prosecution later told the jury the circle of masking tape found with the remains provides the clearest evidence that linda goff was naked and gagged.
This provides striking and remarkable features of similarity with Caroline Owens, and the only common sense conclusion is of sexual abuse before death.
I just don't understand how that judge looked at that act alone, wrapping her head up in masking tape.
That's such a specific pathology to me.
Yeah. That takes a specific pathology of person, and for them to just ignore that is wild.
To not be shocked by that?
That should make you go, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Who the fuck are you to that you did this to this person?
Like you telling me she was willing or not.
Wait a second. Like that's not.
Wait a second. That's not a kink.
That's not BDSM. That's not any of the above.
To be able to wrap somebody's head up in masking tape who's unwilling.
Yeah. I don't really know that anybody that would be willing.
Yeah. And either way, like she was not a willing participant in that.
Now, once Linda was dead, Fred had dismembered her body and buried her under the carport in the yard and covered over her remains with stones, dirt, metal, and other debris.
As with the several of the other sets of remains that we'll see, there were small bones missing from the body when they were finally exhumed.
That's bizarre. Like finger and toe bones.
So they were tortured.
Rose, meanwhile, had gone through Linda's belongings belongings and kept some stuff for herself, some clothing and jewelry, and then just got rid of the rest. And it gets worse.
Because Linda, like we'd said, people who knew her and grew up with her said she was a defiant, very headstrong child.
So when she left home in April, her parents decided to kind of give her some space before trying to convince her to come back home.
Her mother said her father and I felt, let her have her head for a bit, she'll be back.
That's what June Goff said.
They've gone through that before, so you can understand.
but when three weeks had passed and they still hadn't been able to get in touch or heard from her june became concerned and started calling linda's friends few people had any details of where she had gone but june was able to narrow her search down to rose west after having seen her car on one occasion when she came to pick up her daughter so june knocked on the west door and rose answered wearing linda's slippers no no and this disturbed june herself alone of course but she said she looked past rose into the backyard and she could see some of her daughter's clothing hanging on the line to dry
oh my god and rose said she stayed with us for a little bit but after a few days you know she said something like she was going to stay at a local hotel so she's just gone but i'm wearing Wearing her slippers with her clothing on the line back there.
So she was walking around that house wearing Linda's slippers after whatever the fuck they had done to her.
Oh my God. And her poor mom seeing those slippers on her feet?
And she's a mom. You got mom intuition.
You know something bad happened here.
And to see all your daughter's clothes on a clothing line out back?
Oh my God. Yeah. That's beyond.
I keep saying that, but, like, I don't have another response.
But June Goff and her husband would go on to report their daughter missing to the local authorities, and they would spend years searching for her at Salvation Armies, other service organizations, anywhere they could think that she could be, until finally learning of her fate in the mid -1990s.
And for those who did know Linda was staying at the West's house, like the handful of lodgers that were there, rose told them that linda had been asked to leave after she hit one of the children wow so just smeared her name in the process that's nice and just deflected what she does yeah exactly i'm gonna leave it here for now because there's a lot there's a lot more that's gonna be in part three that's yeah and this was heavy enough on its own but they're just i there's the fact that people like this exist on the earth and i think like you add in the idea that they are just consistently bringing
children into this as well and that they're like you said like their children are home during this like are here are used as pawns are being abused themselves hearing stuff like and as we'll find out like they're being sexualized themselves by their own parents like it's this is really bad it's a house of horrors it is a house of it truly It truly is.
Now I get, I knew this case, I knew some of the bad, horrible things in this case, but diving deeper into it.
Yeah, I didn't know everything.
I don't think I knew the detail about the slippers.
I don't know if my psyche saved itself, but I think I forgot about the packing tape of it all.
Yeah. No, it's honestly, it's beyond comprehension.
It really is, it's beyond comprehension.
engine and it's crazy that because like you hear of a case like this and you're like wow it's so fucked that two people like this exist in this world found each other and found each other but then you think of it and you think of all the other cases that we've covered yeah and it's not just two people like this that exist in the world like people in general just exist in this world that are capable of things like this and that is the fucking scariest thing to me it is it just I want to hug my kids.
Yeah. Every time I do one of these, I'm like, excuse me, I'm going to go downstairs and hug them.
Honestly. Oh, these are the ones that I talk about in therapy.
Right? This one's a rough one.
But again, these kids lived through this.
Some of these women lived through this.
So it's important to tell their stories.
Fucking monsters. True monsters.
Well, go hug your children.
Do something nice for someone.
do something good for your psyche after this, I don't think it's good necessarily to end the day on this do some self care literally anything that makes you feel a little lighter go do that and we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird you know I'm not going to say it for this one Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
if you like Morbid you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon Music before you go tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery .com slash survey hey weirdos you know Ash and I have covered some seriously dark tales about romance gone really wrong oh yeah there are so many cases where too good to be true turns out to be exactly that Well, get ready for a love story that's going to blow your minds, because this one is happening right now.
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