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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash.
I'm Alayna. I'm Corinne.
And I'm Sabrina. And this is Morbid.
or wait more appropriate did you guys think spirits were among us i know that they are after yeah yes we we now know that That spirits are very, I'm becoming more and more a true, true believer at this point.
Oh, yeah. Like my skepticism is pretty much out the window.
After our night at the Lizzie Borden house.
Yeah. No way. So much happened.
So much happened. So we recently, as a foursome, stayed.
A fearsome foursome.
A fearsome foursome, stayed at the Lizzie Borden bed and breakfast. Yeah, we did.
Again. And we actually had it all to ourselves, which was horrifying.
so much scarier so much to ourselves that when we opened the door with the code there was no one there to greet us and we were like where are the people that work here and we almost didn't ever ask yeah five hours later we texted and we're like is someone here and they were like oh shit we forgot you guys were just in the house tonight and honestly we have the ghost to thank for that because we wouldn't have contacted them unless we wanted to go to the basement which they wanted us for like go to the fucking basement yeah because we brought like we had a bunch of our own you know ghost hunting
paranormal equipment they give you some there if you want to do like a little ghost hunt and we were getting so much shit over like we were getting evps we were getting stuff lights were dimming i don't think we even had 15 minutes of peace of chillness no never it was it was always always on yeah happening and the feeling in that place is like nothing else it's it's you can't describe it but it's just like so dark it hits you right away my favorite is when the delivery guy was dropping off dinner oh my god i wish you all had seen his face he was like i don't want to be here he was staring and i
opened the door and i think he was even more stunned that i opened the door and he was like why are you here didn't say anything to the haunted to house the door creaks open and you standing there are you here for me is that my door dash he's like i have a steak and cheese you guys want this pork mac and cheese we we definitely brought snacks for the entire village we sure did yes they were offering they were that's true yeah you know when we got stressed out we could just walk through the dining room and grab a snack real quick to calm us down never alone never alone never alone until that very
end not even going to the bathroom any time someone had to go to the bathroom it was like everybody gather it was a group trip also the multiple times that I feel like we went to the bathroom the REM pods did go off that happened more than just once that did happen are they trying to scare us or were they trying to bring us back into the room what are you doing I just put my pants down yeah there's also that or was it just that we left the room so they felt more comfortable walking about freely yeah you know they were like oh they're gone showing their true colors when i fell asleep in the one
room oh my god you guys left me there and then we told you we were going i was asleep how did you tell me i woke you up oh and i was like you're in my line of sight because i sat at like the end so i can still see you but then i did get spooked enough that i got up and i went and joined you guys in the other room and then it was not like 90 seconds later that the REM pod went off.
Right next to the chair that I'd fallen asleep in started going off.
Yeah. The ghost did call us annoying a lot.
They did. So much. Called us many things.
And stupid. Yeah. Yeah.
And sluts. Let's be real.
The spirit called us sluts.
Over and over and over again.
It's like, okay, I get it.
All right, is this high school?
And just so you guys know, in case you don't know, the REM pod is like this little box It has a bunch of little lights on it and a big antenna.
And it's not a motion detector.
Like it's not like you walk.
Well, there are four lights that light up if there is motion.
But it's like close motion, right?
Yeah, very, very close.
It has to be a lot of penetration.
It's not one of those.
Your hand has to be right on top of it.
And you're like, I'm proving it right.
But there's also that middle button that kept going off, too, was temperature fluctuation.
so we were getting a lot of all of it where it was like all it suddenly got colder in the room setting off one alarm on the REM pod and then all of the other four lights that would say how close something was like in proximity would start going off meaning something was like right on top of it was wild like really wild the amount of things that happened in that I mean we were there for how long like nine hours I think it would take probably like 10 hours for people to understand like actually for us to go through all of it 100 because we had so much activity it was astounding i was actually astounded
there was we have a ton a ton of recordings from it like audio recordings video recordings and we we're gonna talk about a couple of them here but we're gonna do like an in -depth look at them and we're gonna hear the actual recordings on the two girls one ghost podcast so after you listen to this head on over there and go listen to the in -depth stuff because you're gonna hear the audio stuff we'll talk even further about like every room that we were in because again it's like 10 hours it's so much just insanity yeah looking back at it I was like wow all of that happened like in one night yeah yeah it's
hard to even remember yeah it happened because there was so much no it's true the next day drew was like so like what happened I was like I don't know yeah I was like a ghost called us sluts that's really the best time for you yeah that That was definitely a highlight and it kept happening.
Yeah. That's why it was the most memorable.
He would follow us around a little bit.
And apparently he was the like trickster of the house.
Yeah. The guides told us that.
Because we had a guide, Amber, who was phenomenal.
We love Amber. She came later.
Honestly, shout out to Amber who was in bed and the management company was like, oh shit, we forgot people were staying at the house and they were supposed to get a tour.
Please go do that. Will you go over to the house?
As if we hadn't already been investigating for like five hours on our own.
she came in and she was like oh shit i like you guys with all the equipment i am glad that she came though because the basement we were being led to the basement yes and i think had we gone in there before we wouldn't have understood that we were dealing with something that's a trickster spirit and i'm worried that something scarier could have happened yeah because we could have been like oh what's who is this because she was pretty quick to shoot that yeah spirit down as as soon as he was around yeah she was great like whereas we might have yeah inquired more and asked more questions but who are you
like we would have been tricked yeah we were lured we were lured down there yeah absolutely it was definitely him and they were like super awesome after like they were like super apologetic that somebody wasn't there yeah it was like it was a great experience but it was also hilarious scared because in the reservations remember walking up to the house when she was coming to give us a tour management called her and just said you you need to go give a ghost tour at the house and gave her no other information.
Yeah. And so she walked up and she like on her side of like the tech that they use, it didn't show that anyone had booked any room because we just booked the house.
Oh, yeah. So she was like, what the fuck?
She was like, what am I walking into right now?
Going to give a ghost tour to the ghosts.
Ghosts. And that was at like 1030, I think.
Like it was late night.
It was late. I can't imagine having to be on call for that.
no like props to her wiki wiki head on down yeah that'd be scary we love a ghost hunt team amber for fun though but yeah team amber but we should we learned a lot too like they give you a a cool little backstory of certain things and we got like a little more like insight into stuff like they make sure to tell you we we've covered this case on the episode when was it it was 2018 18 yeah 20 19 i think yeah yeah yeah i think we did around that time too yeah yeah but we learned so much more yeah being there being there oh and with the guy oh yeah i feel like i know way more now than even when we
presented the case oh definitely that's why like we'll probably dip back into it at some point because i have more theories now yeah but we covered it and again like like, I feel like I learned more this time, like, just of things that, like, little nuances of the case that I didn't know before.
And they make sure to tell you that Lizzie and Emma, her sister, are not in that house.
No, there's no ghost in that house is Lizzie.
And you don't feel like you don't feel like she is.
No. But they say they hated that house.
They didn't, like, live in there when they were there because their dad, you know, Andrew Borden, who is one of the victims. he pat he was like he grew up in kind of poor and yeah he made his own means he made his own and so like he was very frugal as an adult because that's what he knew yeah that's right the only way i do love though that they she said while their spirits aren't actively there people will hear screams because they were sisters and it's this residual like sisterly fighting yes i love that because i i know those screams like my sister and i were like that that growing up yeah yeah
so you know exactly what they're hearing like that yeah and their rooms are right next to each other like the way the house is set up is very like 1800s it's like you have to go into lizzie's room to get to emma's room it's kind of a maze it is wild that they had to the parents would like lock that door between the two rooms because lizzie would like steal things yeah she was known to be like a little klepto yeah so i think they yeah they added a lock and sometimes they would put like a dresser in front of it yeah at one point didn't they say like they nailed it shut yeah they said they nailed
it shut at one point that's wild yeah it is they also locked their maid away each night remember oh yeah oh did they too she told us that as we were going down from the attic she showed where it locked on the outside yeah yeah bridget uh bridget sullivan i hate that i don't think i heard that when we were there there were no house fires or anything i know seriously that's dangerous which we'll talk about obviously on the two girls one ghost feed we're going to talk about that room too because we were in bridget sullivan's room and i feel like hers was very active we got every room we have something
from every single like it might be we might need to look at a blueprint of the house i know and go room by room yes it's so true honestly but on this feed we decided because we were thinking about like you know i i can't say for certain what i think happened there i think that's what's really hard about the case it's so hard it there is no answer and there's no obvious answer either and there's so many theories that it's hard to land on just one and i know people are very definitive a lot of people really think she did it and they are really convinced she did it i totally get why and then there
are a lot of people who are 100 convinced she is innocent and i totally get why too i can see 100 both of those places i just can't land on either either i sit right and i I don't and we will never actually know yeah I don't think we'll like I'm one of those people like with with the Jack the Ripper case we were like five episodes into that I was like almost a hundred pages into like a dissertation about that case you were driving yourself mad I was becoming an actual ripperologist at that point I still could I'm like I'm gonna solve that case like and this is the same what as soon as I go into
that house and start hearing about it again I'm like well let's go here I am I need to solve the Lizzie Borden yeah it's like it's here I was was sitting here telling ash about it and i'll get into it that i was like getting on the floor and like acting out because i was like if you do it at this angle it doesn't it means somebody the left -handed thing and i don't know like i was right once i start it was impressive too because you started theorizing and then you started looking at like the the different things that have actually been like recorded throughout history and they were right like they
were lining up with your theories and then i get really excited when i agree when like old -timey detectives agree with me you're like excited I'm like hell yeah that guy you totally were like an old -timey detective in a past life 100 % I feel that in my bones I feel that in my bones about you the best compliment ever no I think so too I love that I feel because I love these old -timey cases I can't get enough and I guarantee you you're the you were the type of person that it was like we need them on the case oh hell yeah you were the sought -after detective yes you were for sure like smoking cigars
oh my god i can picture that yeah black and white with the hat and the trench coat you had a monocle just because i want you to absolutely i didn't for no other reason than fashion i didn't need it just for fashion just for the aesthetic now i want you to do a past life regression and see what cases you actually were on oh my god we should all do one together that'd be fun oh we should we've been trying to find someone to do it with i would love to do that It's kind of hard to find.
We just have to find a person to do that.
We'll do that. We'll do everything.
We're already like, what's our next ghost hunt?
Oh yeah. This was only the beginning as far as what we learned.
And the four of us together, obviously our energies trigger something because you guys had already been to the Lizzy Born House in Dunham overnight and you had said that there wasn't nearly as much. Not at all.
It was wild and heavy.
We definitely had some stuff go on.
We heard some things.
you can see things out of the corner of your eyes like felt stuff that happened a lot this time but I thought a lot more this time yeah but we didn't get as many like of the lights happening I think it happened maybe like I can't fully remember I feel like it might have happened like once or twice well and it was also storming so it was hard to determine like the lights were maybe because of that or but this time it was non stop I was shocked it was like the second we walked in with the lights yeah like the second we walked in and it just kept happening it was relentless the activity this is our
ghost hunting group now we have to only can we get jackets made yes we're gonna get you ghost girl hats hell yes and then yes we need to make jackets okay it's official it's happening i'm so excited let's stop recording so we can figure out smallwoodhome .com turns your favorite photos into gallery quality framed prints or wrapped canvases all handcrafted in the USA shipped in days and priced to make your whole home smile it's nice to have something on the wall that's not just designy but it's personal they sell custom framed prints that are made just for you pick your favorite photo and they're
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Hey there, my weird weirdos.
I want to take a minute to recommend another podcast called Who Took Misty Copsey?
In September of 1992, 14 -year -old Misty Copsey leaves the Washington State Fair with her best friend and is never seen again.
Her body is never found.
At the time, western Washington is home to prolific serial killers like the Green River Killer, which leads to different theories on who's responsible for what happened to Misty.
Over the course of eight episodes, host and cold case investigator Sarah Kalin speaks with Misty's friends and family, looks at police records and different anonymous tips to try to figure out if Misty's disappearance is the work of a serial killer or someone who knew her.
No suspects are ruled out.
After 33 years, Sarah Kaelin hopes to answer the question, who took Misty?
You guys are going to love this.
If you listen to Morbid, we know that you love a cold case, and we always tell you a cold case is never cold.
So definitely give this a listen.
Definitely look into the case.
Listen to who took misty copsy wherever you get your podcasts okay but we haven't told you what we're doing on this feed we told you a lot about what we're doing on the two girls one ghost feed but on this feed do you wanna well we decided because like going back there you start thinking about it you start hearing the like actual stuff about the case you start you know they have the autopsy photos there they have the crime scene photos there they are gnarly.
You can see them on the internet if you want to, but warning, they are graphic.
They're really rough.
Very upsetting. But you start hearing about that stuff and then you think about how people are either in one of those camps, innocent or guilty.
There's rarely any in between or gray area.
Except for all of us.
People think that she did it are kind of being validated by that nursery rhyme that we all have heard once or twice.
Gave her mother 40 whacks.
When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41.
We used to jump rope to that.
And we figured, we were like, wow, we're going to go into that nursery rhyme a little deeper and talk about how it is the most inaccurate thing you've ever heard. And also in so many ways, in so many ways from the jump and just assuming her guilt, first of all, but all wrong.
And we thought, wow, like nursery rhymes do have weird origins some of them are scary some of them are dark so a lot of them are just weird and a lot of them are just like yeah some of them are just strange and we figured commentary yeah why not look back on a few nursery rhymes and see where they came from starting with the lizzie borden rhyme yes ash is going to do a little introduction yeah i have a little intro that dave helped me shout out to dave intro yeah okay so as early as the 14th century and honestly honestly, probably even before that.
Adults and children have been making up and documenting songs and rhymes to share stories and basically just try to explain the world around them.
Commonly referred to as nursery rhymes, these simple folktales serve a ton of purposes like entertainment, communication, social bonding, and they also encourage phonological awareness, which is a way that people actually learn and understand the sound and structure of words and phases or phrases excuse me which i thought was that is cool however like folklore and urban legend nursery rhymes and children's songs are also a powerful means of conveying social norms expectations and shared morality according to lisa hazlett from the university of south dakota nursery rhymes are a form of quote -unquote
hidden literacies their verses their verses were powerful subversive opinions of political social or religious commentary regarding then contemporary events so essentially she's saying that just like slang or other types of culturally specific vernacular nursery rhymes are a way for a lot of times those in lower social or economic positions to criticize or talk back to their oppressors without being directly confrontational or putting themselves at risk which when you think about the lizzie borden rhyme it's like you're kind of mocking her but it's a nursery rhyme so yeah right you know now like
all different urban legends, and folklore, they also tend to be regionally specific and address themes, ideas, or issues related to the place where they get created in the first place.
So getting topical here, the Lizzie Borden took an axe rhyme, it's an upbeat eight lines children's rhyme that very loosely, like we were just saying, conveys the story of Lizzie Borden.
And even though she ended up being found not guilty, most people in and around Fall River, Massachusetts at the time specifically believed that lizzie was most definitely responsible but had gotten away with the murder so she was completely ostracized by almost everybody in town and local kids would gather outside of the house that she moved to after the murders maplecroft that was the one up on the hill right up on the hill we actually drove by it when we left oh did you yeah it's beautiful it is but kids would literally stand outside that house chanting that rhyme at her it's kind of like impractical
magic when all the kids bully which you're a witch because they would do that to her yeah like she would just like sit in her living room with her dogs yeah if she didn't do it too like right you were saying that earlier yeah like if she didn't do it how horrific yeah parents were murdered in your home and then for the rest of your life people are singing the song like you did it and it has this like weird cheerful tone to it yeah it's like it's like are people so mean and nothing's like people are still mean like that like you know bullying into oh yeah yeah people are ruthless people are ruthless
it's a dawn of time yeah but it was a way of constantly reminding both the local courts and the very wealthy lizzie borden up on that hill that no matter what the law said they in the community knew for a fact that she was a murderer which maybe not nobody can be sure nobody can maybe although the one okay the one One fact that was really strange to me that Amber had told us was that they never searched her room because she was a woman.
And it was improper.
And it seemed improper.
Yeah. Which that to me is crazy.
Yeah. Like they couldn't go in her room.
Well, even her throwing out some of her own like bloody clothes.
Yeah, in the rags. They didn't investigate it because she said she was on her period.
So they were like, oh.
They were like, we don't need to know about that.
We don't need to know.
Gross. Any further.
Not touching that. out like seasoned investigators who were literally doing a crime scene where a man's face was just gone because of a hatchet maybe i can smell the scent from her room we won't go in there it's like what no that's so fucked up this man's face was literally caved in and you are scared of period blood don't talk to us about that they're like that's gross that is like what's that then what's that in the living room if this is gross what's that they're like that's our job he's a he's a man that's a man that's cranium blood that's cranium blood it's different it's a different kind
of blood uh but honestly I think I I think I'm gonna end up becoming like a lizzy ologist at some point we're gonna we're gonna revisit it you might already be yeah we're gonna revisit we're all invested so I think maybe if you guys are down at some point we might do an in -depth are you gonna write your own dissertation another dissertation is coming your way honestly Honestly this is one I could get down with because I remember hearing about this since like third grade and just like wanting to know the truth.
And we obviously we did the episode we did one at the Lizzie Borden house you know years ago.
Which was so scary.
Obviously. But I we didn't go as in -depth as I think I can now.
So. Yeah. Yeah. So uh -oh everybody.
That was at a different time.
Strapping. It's happening.
But right now I'll just give you a quick little overview.
I'm going to give you a look at the rhyme and I'm going to tell you why the rhyme is wrong and And then because I can't stop there ever and brevity is not my strong suit, I have to talk to you about the autopsy really quick and why those wounds don't make any sense.
I'm excited for this because that's the perspective that none of us have the skill set to understand and you do.
It's very interesting.
It's an interesting one for sure.
So as you guys know, Andrew and Abby Borden were killed in their home in Fall River, Massachusetts on August 4th, 1892.
Again, this is a huge Massachusetts crime.
rhyme the fact that it happened like right right in massachusetts everybody's kind of obsessed with it like we can't stop it's never gonna go away you go north you get salem and the witches exactly you get lizzie borden in her ass yeah so true we just are like we we're really focused on these things but like ash said a lot of people believe that andrew and abby borden's daughter lizzie is the culprit but she was acquitted have to keep saying it she was acquitted um so going back to the Lizzie Borden took an axe rhyme.
Like we said, it's Lizzie Borden took an axe, gave her mother 40 whacks.
When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41.
This seems to have actually been created very soon after the trials and murder because in the news herald on February 15, 1894, so only two years after the crimes were committed, and actually barely two years, there is an article that says, quote, a Boston lady who brings her children up very carefully and never allows them to see a newspaper found them on going into her nursery the other day singing lizzie borden took an axe gave her mother 20 wax after seeing what she had done gave her father 21 so it started closer to the actual amount of axe wax that did happen and we have since almost doubled
the numbers oh my gosh also imagine sheltering your children forever and And that's the first fucking thing they find.
Like, you're like, this is exactly what I did.
I'm like, you know what?
Maybe let them read the newspaper now.
Because maybe they'll have the real story.
At this point. I also think it's it comments on our society and like the way that it started with 20 wax.
Yep. To 40 of the way that we love to exaggerate and dramatize things over time.
And things that are already horrific in and of themselves and do not need to be made worse.
Right. She hatcheted her father's face no matter how many times.
That's allegedly she did.
Somebody got Andrew Borden.
No matter how many times that happened, it's brutal.
We don't need to up the ante there.
And that's the thing.
So the first thing that I can think of that's wrong about this is Andrew Borden was killed while taking a nap on the couch in the front sitting room.
And he was struck with what they believe is a hatchet 11 times.
But Alina doesn't know, guys.
We're not sure if it's a hatchet.
They think it was a hatchet.
they think it matched a hatchet.
They found the head of a headless hatchet on the property, but they could never determine it was actually the one.
But there are thoughts that it could have been something else, maybe an iron flat, one of those little things that was found on the stove, which they have a ton of in that house.
And it's right there.
And it's connected.
It's a weapon of opportunity.
It's right there. To the kitchen.
Yeah. So that is a thought.
and who knows because again autopsies weren't like top notch back then so it's not like they could absolutely also we should note that autopsies took place in the house in the dining room literally in the dining room a lot of our night yeah on the dining room table yeah where all our snacks were was the autopsy table that was hanging up on display was that the actual one that is the one that was actually used in this case but it is an antique it's not a replica it's an antique autopsy table like it's an other people had autopsies performed on their bodies yeah but not the borden's for that one
okay but that is the actual room that it happened in um but abby borden was killed in the guest bedroom right up at the top of the stairs and she was struck 18 times with a hatchet so she got more than andrew and she was killed first do they believe wasn't the uncle staying in that room at that like i think he was that is the john morse room right Yeah, she was changing the linens.
Yeah, they believe she was.
There's also like a thought that I think Lizzie said at one point when they asked where Abby could have been, she was like she was probably sewing, and there's a sewing machine in there.
So there was like all these theories, was she sitting down when it happened?
I don't think so. It doesn't make sense to me.
But it's fully believed that Abby was killed first while, like you said, she was either putting linens away, doing something in that room.
It's a guest bedroom.
You're always doing something in a guest bedroom when someone's staying with you.
yeah so there is a closet at the top of the staircase too and it's thought that maybe someone had hit investigators believe this someone hid in that closet and came out when she was in the bedroom and struck her from behind possibly waited in that closet again until andrew came home and fell asleep and then went down and killed him then you know and that all makes sense because like no one else saw anybody else so it made sense that he would hide or she um then when we stayed stayed in the house this time what made this wild to me was we went into that john morse room the room that abby was found
in the room that that like infamous crime scene photo was taken in and the words immediately that came through on our little like you know spirit box type thing was dirty and then closet and as soon as they said closet in that room i i asked did someone hide in the closet and then they she said startled and we were like we didn't know any of the closet stuff we didn't know it before yeah i didn't know that that was a possibility and when i found that out i was like why in that room right that word come out because it didn't happen again or before that in any other room nope not the word i mean that was like
every haunting we experienced was so specific to what has happened in the house yeah what is alleged to have happened and the types of ghosts that are said to be in those rooms and i feel like i mean I said this to you when we got to the house like Corinne and I both decided we're not going to re -listen to the episode that we did about Lizzie Borden because we just didn't want any information to like sway our experience yeah we didn't want to be influenced no definitely not so the fact that none of us maybe in the past we had had that knowledge but that it was just like yeah that's That's what,
the closet thing really shook me.
Like, that's a weird word to just be said in that specific, and it was like, it was like a minute after we got in that room, too.
It was like, we were in that room, we settled for a second, and then it was like, closet.
Right. Well, and those words were not repeated at all.
Never. Ever. Throughout the night in any other room.
First and only time that that was said.
Yes. And it's like, when I found out that they think someone was hiding in the closet, it's like why would that be said that's so much of a coincidence if that's the case and there's so many other evps that will like visit on you guys's feed that why would that be said in that room exactly like like the kids and everything i can't wait to talk about that when we get into the kids guys that that's on another level john's like a my husband is like a super like he's open -minded with that stuff but he's he's a skeptic like he wants to debunk it immediately and he doesn't he He like he can't stand like
any ghost shows or anything like on TV where like they're hunting ghosts.
He's always like, I don't know.
I feel like this is just for TV.
Yeah. Like he's a super like, you know.
Sometimes I feel like that, too.
I do, too, sometimes.
And I fully believe in the paranormal.
Exactly. And when I watch those shows, I'm like.
It's hard. You're like.
Because it's TV. They need to entertain people.
Exactly. So he's always kind of like, eh.
So when I came home and I showed him the video of the kids room and some of the things that happened there, he was like, I have the chills.
Like he was like, I can't exploit that.
Because he gets the uncut version.
He gets to watch the 16 minutes of us sitting there asking.
Without anything happening.
And the, like, awkward 45 seconds of silence waiting for a response.
Yeah. And then seeing that they, like, fully responded to us while we were talking there, he was like, I can't argue against that.
Like, that's a wild one.
Yeah. Each room was – and what happened in each room, what came through on the spirit boxes and all of the devices were very specific, the messaging.
Yeah. Very much. much and that that closet thing i just we started and the word strangled came out in that room too yeah that was in like the actual like spirit box that we were using yeah so we kind of so ash and i were sitting here and we were like trying to like theorize around a strangulation possibly because that's not anywhere really like when you find like that some people have mentioned it here there it's really not a thing like that she was strangled or anything like that so i started i I was like, you know what, like let me look at the autopsy report and see if anything in there can tell
you it's not detailed.
So it's like you're not getting a lot out of there and nothing like right out, nothing screams strangulation and that or anything like that.
But there were contusions to the bridge of Abby's nose and her forehead which are interesting.
And initially I figured my initial thought with that was like okay, that was probably her falling forward after to the front after she got hit.
Yeah. And she didn't stop herself using her hands because she had been hit in the head and incapacitated and just flat on the ground.
Or maybe she fell forward and then was hit and it was like the force of the wax like her face into the ground, that kind of thing.
Or, I mean, this is a really aggressive theory, but like what if someone did grab her from the back of her neck and just slam her down?
Exactly. Possibly, yeah.
Or possibly, like you said, grabbed her from the back of the neck and slammed her into the wall even in front of her into the bureau next to her There's a bureau next to her Heavy duty pieces of furniture Marble top That's solid wood.
There was no wood veneer No. It is solid It's not from Ikea.
It's heavy Very solid and these were too like the contusion on her forehead was on the left side of like above her eyebrow and on the left side of her forehead and the bureau if she was facing the wall which is where she was found is to her left. If they took her and slammed slammed her into that dresser to first like incapacitate her.
But then according to the autopsy report, looking at the 18 wounds to her head, the first one was called a glancing scalp wound.
So it was, seems to me like that would be one that was like quick and not aimed properly.
And I just got to get this in.
Wasn't even as hard as it could have possibly been because it's a glancing scalp wound.
It was like two inches long, one and a half inches wide.
and it was struck about three inches above her left ear hole.
So that was interesting to me because it was said to be done in a downwards motion that did not penetrate the skull.
So it just didn't go through the skull, just a glancing scalp wound about three inches up from her ear hole, which is near your temple.
Does that mean someone was taller than her too?
That was my thought because if you look at Lizzie, Lizzie is like five foot three, five foot four is what she's thought to have been.
And so is Abby. is five foot three so they're about the same height i mean i guess you could raise your like you could definitely raise above yeah but she was also the first one killed in the house and so that sort of thing where you you try to hit but you miss that to me indicates there was still a lot of like adrenaline and nervousness building up too yeah especially if they're waiting in the closet for a long time yeah and then you're just bursting out and you got to do it before she can scream because bridget sullivan is outside washing windows right this is happening so you need to do this quick
and you need to incapacitate someone quick right um so again not hard enough to penetrate the skull but a decent wound and the temple area which if you're hitting the temple you're going to be dazed and startled that's a place you don't want to be hit it's going to like fuck with you doesn't that bleed a ton it bleeds a ton because there's a lot of like stuff going on in there but interestingly though it was her left side which to me would seem to indicate a left person because if you're walking up behind her you're not going to reach across your body right whack her in the left side so that'd
just be so awkward yeah it would just be an awkward thing and it would add extra seconds to what you're doing to the body and you're not getting a good whack yeah you don't have nearly as much control you don't have near and then it's like but if it was a glancing scalp wound was it a right -handed person and they didn't have a lot of control so So they hit it not that hard. But also we have to remember that people were forced into learning to be right -handed.
So perhaps it was someone who to the public and in school were right -handed, but naturally to them using their left -handed.
Exactly. Because people point to the fact that Lizzie was right -handed, but maybe in school she was.
Nothing says that she was not ambidextrous and was just taught to be right -handed.
We don't know. Either way.
Right. So it could have been either way.
but then we were thinking okay that would happen if you were coming from behind um but and i do believe she was snuck on snuck up on i think behind because the way she fell it just doesn't make sense that she was turned to face someone um but the second hit was directly to the top of her skull which if done by lizzie would only be done likely if abby fell to her knees knees first which she did right that well we don't know if she fell to her knees she she landed she ended up falling to her knees but i don't know if she just fell like crumpled into that position because also they moved her to take
pictures so like those are even a little bit like harry i forgot that they had moved they said that she was found with her knees up a little bit but that's like you know we can only go by so much yeah but she would have had to have fallen to her knees if this was lizzie because of the height i don't think she would be able to get a good whack to the full top of her skull and it wasn't done with her lying on the ground because you're not if she's lying on the ground then her head is a little down yeah you're not going to get a good whack on the top of the head so she had to have been at least on her
knees um and again she would have needed to be facing away here's a question and i wonder if this lines so we heard the closet startled what if abby was going to put away linens or to open that closet door and then got startled that first scrape that kind of hit on the odd side of the head where we're like that person would have to be left -handed what if that happened there she was she was so scared she fell down and hit herself and that's when she was on the ground and started getting that absolutely could yeah that definitely could have but that does make sense imagery of like blood spatter
elsewhere that's an interesting thing so they don't it seems like it all happened in that one spot in that corner but also the blood spatter is strange it's like it doesn't seem like it was enough almost like it's like so could it some could have been a lot of it probably got on the person okay to be honest and especially when you get to like we're going to get to a point where it does penetrate through the skull in the autopsy report the pieces do and when it penetrates through a skull you're gonna be pulling back out and it's gonna make a lot yes so it's gonna spray a lot and it did stay in that little
corner so i think the majority of it happened in that corner but it's just that thing of like she definitely hadn't fallen down yet when that second hit happened all the way because she she at least had to be on her knees or standing because to get the top of the head it's just the angle right you wouldn't with the wall there you wouldn't you would have to like like almost golf club swing into the top of her head to get it.
So you had to get a good like leverage on her.
So it's either someone who was taller or if it was Lizzie, she had to have been on her knees.
Which kind of like works a little bit both ways because it's like at first you're like, okay, well, because they're the same height -ish a little bit, it's less likely to be Lizzie because they were able to do that.
But then if she fell on her knees, it makes sense.
And she was found with her knees up a little bit, it which kind of leads me to believe that she went down on her knees first and then kind of was whacked down more because to get 18 whacks and a lot of them on the top of the head it was before you fell and I don't think you were standing that whole time I think you fell yeah knees to me it's like definitive she was facing the other way and startled because you know like we said it's it looks like a left -handed person she was found facing the wall on her knees if she had fallen into her knees after that first hit and was facing someone, she would have fallen
all the way down facing the other way.
You're not doing like a spin.
No, you're not just turning and you're not going to turn and try to run into the wall.
Like you're going to try to run out the door.
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But there's a surprise little thing in that autopsy report because before the head wounds, so before that head wound on the left side of her skull, before even the one above that, yeah she was struck in the back first which kind of confirms the turned around yeah because it was somewhere above her spine in between the junction where like her neck and her body kind of meet and what i hate about this so much is that i'm picturing someone coming out of the closet making eye contact with abby abby's already in that spot and doesn't really know what to do she's got nowhere to go person is just coming
around and trying to like almost hook her with the axe to prevent her from being able to get away she would cornered the only thing what if she didn't i kind of hope she didn't see it coming like yeah he didn't make eye contact and also isn't there like a place in your spine you would know if like where it's hit and it kind of severs your ability to feel things it kind of like c5 it's stay alive is what it is like i hope that that's if they hit it and feel the pain of everything else i think unfortunately this was was like a little superficial and i would love to believe that too but this is basically
one of those things that just kind of tells us a little more about like the fact that she was facing the wall when this happened which means yeah either this person like ran out of the closet up on her or they might have like snuck on her like if she was bent down or getting something out of a drawer Or facing the bureau and they just kind of like creeped up behind her and then whacked?
Or, and this is going in the direction of if it was Lizzie, she wouldn't have cared if Lizzie walked in the room.
So if Lizzie walked up on her, she just went about her business if she was being like, oh, Abby, blah, blah, blah.
And then, like, you're...
I think she called her Mother Borden.
Mother Borden. No, no, no. Mrs. Borden.
Mrs. Borden. She was her stepmother.
She wasn't her mother.
her step mom yeah and she didn't like her yeah they didn't get along which leaning toward if lizzie did it abby got hit a lot more she sure did than the father did 18 to 11 so that's that's a lot there's that and again like i said i don't know i'm no i'm no longer convinced i have any idea what happened so because the one reason that i buy lizzie doing it is the whole theory of like her father's abuse and all of that and her being pushed to a place where she had to defend herself so in that but in that regard it's like wouldn't he then have more injuries you would think that's the thing well i
was reading while you were reading all the autopsy reports i was just reading different theories and i guess there's not a lot of evidence that he was abusive yeah i think it's just like it's kind of a rumor it's kind of like gossip yeah how do you try to justify why someone would do that yeah and actually a lot of people say that that she was his favorite daughter, and she was actually treated a lot better than Emma was.
And he, like, gave into her requests a lot more than he gave into Emma's.
Yeah. I will say, though, with Abby getting more wax, it was the first crime out of the two.
So you're less tired.
You got to make sure.
Yeah. And also, it's just like the— You need to make sure that it's done.
Right. And the adrenaline of it all.
It's kind of like when people are repeat offenders and repeat killers, oftentimes their earlier crimes are the ones that will get them caught because they're the messiest. Yeah, it's true.
And if they had the idea, I need to eliminate these two people, then I need to make sure this is done.
I can't leave any kind of possibility that this wasn't done before I move on to the next one.
You can take a little more time with Andrew.
And especially if Andrew was out of the house in town while this was happening, they could have...
Which they had a little more time.
Yeah, and then they waited for him to come in and fall asleep.
And it makes sense because there's no way that he could have – I think even if he was sleeping, he would have been woken up by this sound.
She would have – Right.
Not necessarily that she would have screamed because maybe she didn't, but I think just the sound of, like, repeated, like, boom, boom.
Because they're close.
Those rooms are not far away from each other.
I think it was Bridget and somebody else, I'm not sure who was with her, who discovered Abby's body.
And they only made it halfway up the stairs before they saw.
Yeah, it was right there.
Because it's that room right at the top of the stairs.
It's literally right there.
you can you would definitely hear something yeah and it's an old home like you would hear someone yeah to the floor and not only is it an old home there was no electricity no water no nothing so it's even quieter than a regular house yeah you can't blame it on anything else yeah exactly and going back to how the word strangulation was said yeah in in the room when we were there i was trying to think of any way that this would work and the only thing i can think of is could she have been placed in a headlock in any at any point during this and then the person kind of struck down at her that way
that's kind of what I thought but that's also taking away a lot of leverage and force it could also just imply like loss of breathing yeah just like the shock like feeling strangled feeling like you're strangled yeah also maybe blood was coming out yeah or mouth which could cause strangulation that's true yeah so I've been watching a lot of House lately yeah I feel like I got my theories but there's also Also, you know, that theory of, like, the iron flat being used as the murder weapon, which is an interesting thing, because they're not even sure that the hatchet matches all the wounds.
They think it's a likely hatchet, but it's interesting that that's not even set in stone, but they really go with that.
I'm like, this was an interesting investigation, y 'all.
Yeah, but the closet thing is wild.
That is wild. Just the fact that that was said.
Yeah. But back to the rhyme, just to conclude that, whatever you think happened, if Lizzie did it or not, the rhyme has remained and is very wrong.
It's wrong about the number of times they were both hit.
It's presuming an axe was used, which an axe wasn't even the thing that they thought was used.
It's a hatchet, which is a different thing.
Always what I equate with this crime, I'm like, oh, you think Lizzie Borden, you think axe.
And then I think I just recently realized, no, it wasn't even an axe.
Yeah, even though we've covered this before, my brain always goes there.
Because it's just indoctrinated by that nursery rhyme, Lizzie Borden took an axe.
Right. That's like insignificant.
You don't say Lizzie Borden took a hatchet.
Yeah. It does not sound the same.
It's too wordy, too many syllables.
You mean something that rhymes with wax.
Yeah. And that's the only thing that works.
Hatchet, you can't.
Yeah. Which, a hatchet is much easier to wield than an axe.
That's the other thing.
It's so true. It's a handheld thing, so.
But it's also, that rhyme is also assuming and telling everybody else that Lizzie is is the one who did it, not even giving you any other suspects.
Just Lizzie did it.
And like you said, when she went to live on the hill in Maplecroft, kids would sing it on her lawn and sing it on her front porch. And again, if she didn't do it, that's like the most horrific nightmare I could ever imagine.
Didn't you say they also used to throw rotten eggs at her house?
Oh, yeah. So in a newspaper article called Bothering Lizzie, Grown Boys and Girls, Unwelcome Callers at Miss Borden's.
it was in the fall river daily globe on may 9th 1902 it said the police were called to the board and home and led to believe the hill boys and girls were trampling over the lawn lambasting the side of the board and home with decayed eggs ringing the doorbell late at night tying the doors and calling her vile names when lizzie answered the door the police were unable to capture the offenders which if she didn't do it that's so fucked like this girl was acquitted yeah She was just acquitted.
These are like little rich assholes.
What this is, is their parents telling them, that's Lizzie Borden's house.
She killed her parents.
They're the ones telling them.
Those kids aren't coming up with it on their own.
Where was Emma again when this happened?
Emma was visiting friends when this happened.
When the murder happened?
Yeah, she had been gone for like two weeks.
Later in life, they spent a lot of time together.
They did, but then I think there was a big feud between them toward the end of their lives.
i remember yeah the original tour that we went on something happened between them and emma left maplecraft yeah i think you're right and you know what we'll go further into that when we revisit this case because we are absolutely revisiting this case because i have so many theories i want to get into but like we don't have time today and i'm like chomping at the bit just to talk about i know so now i'm like yeah we're gonna do a whole other thing on this because i'm gonna look into like everything who knows maybe we'll have to go back i know now i'm like and it's it's we Like, we can go there,
it's conceivable that we can go back.
So, it's like, being able to go to the actual place that it happened is a whole different ballgame.
Because Jack the Ripper, I was like, can we go to Whitechapel really quick?
I just, I want to see these places.
Let's go, girl, I'm in.
Like, let's go. Next time you go, you just bust in and you're like, okay, here are the theories.
I'm like, all right.
Tell me which one's right.
Say a name. I'm going to go room to room and do an investigation again.
I think we have to, I'm just saying.
I think so. Okay. But yeah, so that is the Lizzie Borden took an ax nursery rhyme.
yes and should i start with my my first other nursery rhyme this is my second noisery so that's like that's a nursery rhyme but it's more like you said like you know jumping rope song yeah it's a jump rope song exactly there you go yeah because you say like one two yeah this is an actual nursery rhyme so everybody knows three blind mice yes the strangest nursery rhyme ever it really is it's pretty out front with the brutality and the weirdness because you're just chopping off mice's tails yeah don't be doing that so this is actually this is definitely one of those mary tutor kind of nursery rhyme
it was produced during her reign yeah yeah a lot of nursery rhymes noisery rhymes came out during her reign that is true so many of them are about her her yep yeah and a lot of them are just like sensational and wild um a lot of them are supposedly talking about her unrestrained use of violence to reinstate that catholic church in england um among those three blind mice definitely stands out as one of the more explicit like i was saying it's just like right out there um the rhyme first appeared in do i don't know if i'm gonna say this right deuteromelia deuteromelia i'm gonna go with that you
went for it i did it yeah um or the second part of music's melody which is a book of poems and songs that was originally published in 1609 and this is what it originally said three blind mice three blind mice dame lulian dame lulian the miller and his merry old wife she scraped her tripe licked thou the knife don't know what the fuck that means but it was written in old english and the rhyme doesn't specifically reference violence in this this version of it and given the language it's like a little difficult to interpret yeah actually at all yeah but later whatever she's doing she seems to enjoy
it if she's licking the knife yeah it seems like there's some some something's brewing it's a weird visual but later we got the more commonly known version and that's three blind And in this version, Mary Tudor is supposed to be the farmer's wife or the person in a position of power.
and the three blind mice are a lot of times interpreted as the three protestant bishops that tudor had blinded and burned at the stake for defying her attempts to reinstate catholic power in england shit so it's pretty gnarly yeah now interestingly this rhyme first appeared as a folk song and according to iona and peter opie they didn't appear in children's literature until until about 1842.
And in that case, the very thinly veiled references to violence and their possible connection to Tudor actually makes sense.
They're more explicit because they're intended for adults at that point.
So, but as a children's rhyme, it still conveys a reminder, I guess, of like the dangers one can face when you know, willfully defying the crown of the church. So don't do that.
Don't keep it that weird, I suppose, because you can be blinded and burned at the stake i suppose so fun it's i mean you could do anything back in the day and and you could literally do nothing and be accused of something you could just exist breathing having lungs in your body woman yeah being any kind of human yeah so yeah that's three blind mice really cute rhyme always thought it was weird never sang it to my kids yeah there's a lot of rhymes i feel like we don't we didn't sing any nursery rhymes to your kids because Because they're all strange.
Yeah, we got some like books when they were little.
Like people would give you books of like nursery rhymes and stuff.
And a lot of times I'd be in the middle of reading one at bedtime and I'd be like, we're going to do another book.
I don't know about this one because a lot of them like have like racist undertones.
And they're not even like subtle.
Like they're, I'm like, I feel gross reading this.
So I'm not going to read it to you.
And we're going to get rid of this book.
Yeah, we're going to go ahead and say goodbye to that one.
it's weird and kind of disturbing how so many things that are geared towards children yeah are like their roots are very terrifying or just violent violent racist like even like grimm's fairy tales like so many fairytales are rooted in dark things yeah or a lot of them like even i was looking at like some european and worldwide nursery rhymes and they so many of them are written to terrify kids yeah with the purpose of behave or this terrifying monster is gonna come eat you yes that's just like how people raise their kids back in the day they were just like they terrified them into submission it
reminds me of dwight in the office when he says learn your rules you better learn your rules if you don't you'll be eaten in your sleep i never even watched the office but i learned that from you and i see that all the time so funny well i have a little bit of a different one i have goosey goosey gander so adorable i bet it has such a wholesome beginning goosey goosey gander i didn't even even know this one actually really but i don't think i do either yeah do you know how it goes i will tell you now because i do now but i guess this popular british children's rhyme goosey goosey gander first
appeared in gammer gertens garland or the nursery i know i love a good alliteration oh yeah but it was a collection of popular children's nursery rhymes first published in 1784 and the most common version is goosey goosey gander whether Whither shall I wander?
Upstairs and downstairs and in my lady's chamber.
There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers.
So I took him by his left leg and threw him down the stairs.
I hope the left leg is not about a leg.
Well, later versions of this rhyme came to include an additional four lines.
Because it needed a little bit more.
Yeah, they're like, you know what, that's not enough.
It leaves you wanting more.
so here you go the stairs went crack he nearly broke his back i'm sure and all the little ducks went quack quack quack adorable so one popular love it i just picture a child just launching an old man down the stairs by his left leg and it's like because he didn't pray because he didn't pray he didn't say his prayers and then the ducks are like quack quack quack quack to me it was like like when it was talking about the ladies' chambers and stuff, I felt like he was just a perv that they were like.
Me too, yeah. Yeah, and they just kick you out.
They just launched him down the stairs.
That's why I was hoping it was launched by the third leg.
So I think you guys are kind of onto the right track there.
Yeah. Because one popular interpretation of this rhyme is that it contains sexual overtones, with the goose symbolizing fertility, particularly with the reference, my ladies' chamber.
Similarly, librarian Chris Roberts writes, and days gone by goose was a common term for and he says prostitute so the early part of the rhyme conceivably alludes to the spread of venereal disease oh with lines about wandering and a lady's chambers referring to the procurement of a sex worker services wow and then like you know throwing them out once the services have been procured yeah yes right but no one likes a man who lingers no don't be lingering she'll throw you down the stairs but that's not the only interpretation another popular interpretation is that the goosey gander rhyme actually
tells a story of religious persecution in england i guess in 1650 there were a shit ton of brothels around london that existed on land that was actually owned by the catholic church which like conceive that in your mind yeah yeah very ironic but when henry the eighth seized that land and then claimed it for the crown he not only shut down the brothel brothel excuse me sending their customers wandering but he also dealt a very heavy blow to catholicism so the reference to the old man who wouldn't say his prayers could possibly be a reference to catholic priests and bishops who were punished for not reading
from scripture published by the church of england and for resisting or defying protestant authority so not only would that explanation be a more complete interpretation of the rhyme because like the sexual overtones are there but then you get to the end and it does kind of unravel with like he wouldn't say his prayers but uh it would also be in keeping with hazlett's theory of hidden literacies in this case the simple cheery children's rhyme is used to explain a major shift in the physical and cultural landscape that removed power from the catholic church and it reminded others of the potential
consequences of defying protestant rule damn henry the eighth is just like all up and everything terrible he's everywhere.
He's just all up in everything.
He might be my Jack the Ripper.
It's fascinating. London and English history.
And Anne Boleyn. Once you start looking into that, it's hard to stop.
And there's so many mysteries, like the missing princes that just only covered Tower.
It's so, so sad. They found them, didn't they?
They found the remains of two childlike, but there's no way to verify.
can't confirm it yeah yeah but they just believe it to be true but that there's so many like that the wives like we saw six which by the way oh wait i saw it too it's so fun good it is so fun i loved at the end how everyone was like standing up and dancing it's just like a party everyone just dances the music is so fun it is really fun and that i see it's like after that you're just like now i want to know everything well you just can't stop i'm like i actually saw that show right after we had done a two -parter on tower of london oh really and so i was like so fully immersed in that history already
that i was like we left and i was rattling off all these facts to my family my sister's like who are you when you like hyper fixate on something and you're like let me tell you everything i know someone's like what is wrong with john knows all about hyper fixation because Because every single week I'll look over at him and I'll just be like, do you want to know about submersibles?
And he's like, why?
He's like, no, I don't.
He's like, again? Sometimes I'll come over and he's like, she's going to tell you about this.
Yeah, he's like, she's going to tell you about something today.
Just listen. Let's just let her get through it.
Do you guys have a hyperfixation meal?
Like a food that you just have eaten every single day for like three years?
And then I wear it out to the point where I don't like it.
And then I have to leave it for a while.
And then I'll come back to it later.
So many people have those.
And I don't think I have one, really.
yeah because i feel a little bit out of the crowd because you're an explorer yeah you're you're a gemini i am a gemini gemini's are just like whatever i'll do whatever but every girly on tiktok is like this is my hyper fixation meal and i'm like i want one i hyper fix it on everything like i have a hyper fixation meal music movies looks like i hyper fixate on things yeah when i have it like when i'm in one thing i'm so hyper in it that yeah i have to know everything about it yeah i have to like like i john showed me ghost the band i knew the entire lore of that band and like and three years in we
don't really listen to other music no like in the car with elena no you get in the car with me i'm like and this is why we understand your day list recommendations let's check our day list mine always are mean to me is this one mean to you you right now wait oh mine is anti -depression grief thursday wow that sounds like what mine usually are mine's 90s thursday afternoon actually that's less aggressive than in the first song on it is by ghost okay accurate accurate mine is nostalgia ox approved thursday afternoon and the first song is rock your body by justin timberlake i don't know about that That is so good.
Oh, my God. I love that.
Mine is also very, just spot on again.
Cozy Granola Vibes, Thursday afternoon.
Ooh, Cozy Granola Vibes.
Wait, what's your first song?
Because maybe we have the same one.
Mine's Orange Juice by Noah Kahn.
Oh. Mine's Beige by Yokelore.
I haven't started my Rock Lobster B -52.
Oh, my God. I'm obsessed.
Ooh, I feel like that'll be good.
But I'll keep you updated.
Yes, please do. Just once a day, I'm going to play it to see what it does to my day list. Just to see what's going on.
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Okay, so this one that I chose has a lot of lore because there's two trains of thought.
in terms of what this nursery rhyme is talking about, but it's Georgie Porgy.
Have you heard this one?
Yep. Georgie Porgy putting in pie, kissed the girls and made them cry.
When the boys come out to play, Georgie Porgy ran away.
Georgie Porgy. Georgie Porgy.
And so unfortunately in modern day, this nursery rhyme is used often to taunt boys either named George or boys who are a little overweight because it's talking about him eating pie and just, you know.
Yeah. just enjoying the indulgences of life yeah what's wrong with that yeah god what is wrong but then he's like non -consensually kissing girls and making them cry so you're like honestly georgie fuck off georgie you're poor you're poor g all right we all we all know it's georgie poor g we all know it's georgie unfortunately i did have a georgie poor g and uh growing up there was a his name was should i just out him he did this to me you fucked up big time he would chase me like for years and pin me down and kiss me on the playground and he like recruited people it was when he recruited people
to like he recruited tackle you wow there was another kid but yeah they they uh chased me wow where were were the adults when we were children today that school be shut down right that happened to me in second grade but it has a better ending came up and like tackled me and kissed me and i punched him in the face and so my parents got brought in to say did you get in trouble i was gonna get in trouble until my dad said did he kiss her and they were like he was like did she did he ask before he did that and they were like of course not like they're you know they're in second grade whatever and he
was like boys will be boys is he all right is he gonna live and they were like yep and he was like i see nothing wrong here except for what he did you did like good he was like no one my dad was literally like seriously no one touches her without her consent she has the right to do anything to defend herself meanwhile i was told it means he has a crush on you and i'm like there was like i truly had band -aids covering my knees for years of my life because the amount of times i would fall on the pavement and scratch my knees oh my god this is traumatizing see that was such a bad one three months
in trauma treatment that is such a like common thing too that people still do is like oh he's mean to you because he has a crush on you i never tell no because it's like he's mean to you because he's an like he's mean to you because he's an asshole don't go near him yeah then because you don't want them to grow up and seek romantic partners that hurt them like being treated like shit it means he likes you like no no in a different way like no he's just being a little dick yeah being an asshole is not my love language not cute no not cute yeah all right we're all on the same page yeah the georgie
porgy hate group okay well it is believed that georgie porgy is based off of george villier the first duke of buckingham and king james the first of england because the two are rumored to have been lovers so this is a bit of queer history making its way into a nursery rhyme obsessed king james first met george in 1614 and he was like oh my god whoa this guy is super hot and so he bought george a whole new wardrobe and many other things which towards damn right like are you love bombing is this a sick yeah like what's happening here what's going on falling in love you know I love that's like pretty
woman situation yeah it totally was and George was super into it so he also began intensely lobbying to be appointed as the royal cup bearer stop which was a position which which was not a euphemism are we sure that's like a Freudian flip back in the day yeah but this position if he if he got it which spoiler alert he did it would allow him to speak to the king as they served drinks at the royal table and basically just give him a lot of access to the king and obviously like some alone time i'm sure bearing his cup george also wait till you see this picture i added george also started dancing
at masks which were these festive parties thrown in the court and And George would move his body in this really enchanting way, showing off his grace and his beauty and his physique.
And he would wear these belly shirts and a skirt, which was a very normal costume actually for all of the dancers of that time.
So I pulled a photo for you to see.
When you see this, you're going to want him.
George is an enigma.
We need a link for you.
I'd like to know it for his outfit.
George. George is Britney Spears toxic.
Yes. Oh my gosh. He really is.
100%. so obviously king james is like how can i resist this man he's so hot and he would call him steenie which was a nickname named after another man who was said to have like the face of an angel so his nickname for george his cup bearer was basically talking about how gorgeous he is so obviously this is adorable so i love this yeah it is really nice but king james he felt like he He had to speak on the situation because there were a lot of rumors and he was like, let me dispel the rumors.
And so he went and officially made a speech to the Privy Court and said, quote, you may be sure that I love the Earl of Beckingham more than anyone else and more than you who are here assembled.
I wish to speak in my own behalf and not to have it thought to be a defect for Jesus Christ did the same and therefore I cannot be blamed.
Christ had John. I have George.
George this was like a very he was defending I love that he embraced this I love that right wow I just got chills a little bit I know no seriously I love that he's just like JC and John okay yeah we're adding that to the jacket JC and John JC and John you being shitty to me about it jc and john yes they also oh god king james and george lee would exchange these really romantic and like seductive sexy letters to one another and one of them writing yeah right yes yes please yeah but then also bring back letter writing and only write what you're okay with future people reading on a a podcast like
hundreds of years in the future yeah because they have the letters and we're about to expose some of it yes king james wrote god bless you my sweet child and wait yes in a letter to george king james wrote god bless you my sweet child and wife and grant because also he had a wife and a child as you do back then everyone had a yeah it's a whole had a woman in but then you know sometimes they also had a man yeah god bless you my sweet child and wife and grant that ye may ever be a comfort to your dear father and husband and then george replied with a letter that said i naturally so love your person and i
adore all your other parts which are her more than any man oh oh than any one man had so he's like damn mikey's like damn mikey's fully turned like headphones off oh my gosh okay and this is by far i think the sexiest line that has been written in one of their letters because years later because they they had this love affair for over a decade years later king james wrote another letter to george and he was a little bit more straightforward and to the point he said whether you loved me now better than at a time which i shall never forget farnham where the bed's head could not be found between the master
and his dog is that not talking about like role play 100 percent where were the body parts you couldn't even see them because they were freaking flying I love the way that people turned each other on and talked to each other's parts up back in the day, like there was so much more effort and like thought put behind the words they chose It was way more beautiful, now it's so crass I know Now it's like someone just sending a dick pic Unsellicited Yeah, I was in a church once But like that kind of shit I was on a family vacation That was i was in church was jc oh my god it's getting torrent and the doors
to the church are always open hallelujah oh my god okay so these two men king james and george they stayed really close until king james well close as in they were dating they were fully lovers they were fucking yeah Yeah, they were fucking until he died.
King James did pass away in 1625.
And George was also said to have seduced some women in his time, too.
So he had partners of his own outside of King James, it is thought.
But in terms of the nursery rhyme, to go back to Georgie Porgie's nursery rhyme, it was Georgie Porgie pudding and pie, kissed the girls, made them cry.
When the boys come out to play, Georgie Porgie ran away.
way so it's thought that perhaps this could be in reference to george spending some time outside of his relationship with king james kissing women who potentially were married and then those men coming a knock in to have a duel and to confront george he's running away he's like bye he's running away and he's being protected by his lover king james and he has like no intention of technically being with these women probably so it's like he he's in love with james right So it's like, kiss the girls, make them cry, because you're leaving them like you really don't have one of those.
You're running. You're kissing and running.
It's a kiss and run.
And King James did protect George a lot.
He actually dissolved Parliament twice to keep George from being impeached.
And then after King James passed away, George had very little protection left and eventually was assassinated by political rivals.
Wow. What a fucking story.
I know. Damn. Why is there not a movie about this?
the whole way that you were talking about it, I was picturing it in my head like a movie it really does feel like it, call me by your name or the peaches but he definitely has gout, so it's a little less hot slightly less hot if you get past the scabies but they could make it sexy between the gout and the no hygiene whatsoever it's okay a package so it's okay yeah there should be a theater package though where similar to when you go to like disneyland and universal and those certain rides that will like spray a scent at you yes there should be not that i would ever want to experience this but there
should be some scented movies yeah 14 yeah absolutely yeah it's like the naked scene and they're like getting all seduced and it's just must like who makes those scents and is like i could put this this and this together and it will smell like stinky feet you know what i mean a good question or like the jelly beans yeah because I feel like my nose is yeah you've been I got this pregnant women just pregnant women do it there's gotta be like throw up buckets right oh yeah yeah 100 % yeah or like the jelly beans like the Harry Potter ones that taste like earwax and stuff you're like but who knows
like why do they still like get on they are that also brings up so many questions like you know how artificial vanilla is apparently made from beaver butt goo yeah who Who decided, let me just taste this excretion from a beaver's bum.
Wow, this tastes like vanilla.
This is truly like, that is really upsetting.
Who made that first move?
Good questions. Who made that step?
And who decided to put horse hooves in Skittles?
And who killed the Bordens?
Exactly. These are the questions.
These are the important questions.
These are the questions on our new show.
Oh, he's going to ask questions.
now i'm back to our uh sitcom that we're creating and our sitcom for anyone that doesn't know is sabrina and i acting out her life with a two person laugh track that is just ash and elena yeah just like the old man in the muppets yeah in a balcony somewhere that will be the first episode can be the uh dick pic in the church yeah Yeah, I love it.
Honestly? Honestly?
We should talk later, okay?
Yeah. Let's figure this out.
We're going to get this done.
George would be into it.
So would King James.
There you go. But going back to this nursery rhyme for just a moment, there is some debate over what or who this nursery rhyme references.
So a lot of people believe that it's the story of the Duke, George, and King James I.
But people also said that the line, when the boys come out to play, was actually added And there were no written theories about this nursery rhyme being about King James and George until Iona and Peter Opie, who are folklorists who use modern techniques to understand children's literature and nursery rhymes, they theorized that this was in reference to George and James's affair.
fair so they were the first people to put like in print and many many centuries decades later that it was about these two but for a long time people speculated that it was actually about king george the fourth who was a larger man who had a lot of sex had a lot of different women had a lot of different children with those different women he hated his wives and would make them cry and he loved to fight bare knuckled in these illegal fighting rings so he would fight them and then and maybe run away for his life.
But I guarantee people couldn't run away from him because he's the king.
They have to let him win, you know?
Yeah, you're right.
So that one does make sense, but I prefer George and James's love story.
I prefer that way more romantic.
I love that one. So some nursery rhymes have lovely beginnings.
Are beautiful. Yeah, because we're going with that.
It's canon now, but it's James and George.
We're going with it.
That's it. it okay i can't pick between the two that i'm gonna do so i'm gonna do abbreviated for both of them love that okay because ring around the rosie ah a pocket full of posies did you say ashes ashes or a tissue a tissue okay so i did to the website i found said a tissue a tissue we all fall down the king has sent his daughter to fetch a pail of water a tissue a tissue we we all fall down.
The robin on the steeple is singing to the people.
A tissue, a tissue, we all fall down.
Or ashes, ashes. The wedding bells are ringing.
The boys and girls are singing.
A tissue, a tissue, we all fall down.
Yeah, I never heard a tissue, a tissue, but I kind of like it better.
I like ashes better.
I like ashes too. And I think we all know ashes.
It's easier to say.
It is. Because also over time, I think a lot of people adopted this nursery rhyme and like changed it based on whatever was going on in that society but as of recently there's been a rumor that this is all about the great plague and that the rose that ring around rosies is about like the rashes that you would get that the pocket full of posies is what doctors and medical people would use to cover up the stench yep and then ashes ashes was to indicate the burning and cremating of all those who died but it isn't true you guys oh i never knew that because cremating was not allowed during this time
also the first mention of ring around rosie doesn't come around until 700 or so years afterwards wow yeah interesting so then like there's just a whole bunch of versions of what it could be but i really like this one what if it's actually a game kind of of like spin the bottle because in the 19th century there was a protestant dancing band in both america and england like footloose like footloose exactly and so kids would have these like play parties where they would sing and dance and kind of be like f you um and and they would sing they would gather in a circle holding hands singing ring around
the rosie and apparently they make it a game where when you do we all fall down whoever was the last person to fall down had to out who they crushed on in the circle this is so fun we've been playing wrong this is better right isn't this like a fun twist that we did yeah i like this um and they would either have to profess their love for someone in the circle or kiss or hug the person scandalous i'm thinking about all the people who would like not fall down so they could kiss their crush oh down oh yeah i love that yeah so that i've never heard of that yeah i never heard that i was so surprised
because it's always listed as a nursery rhyme that's associated with dark history yeah it always always and there's no evidence there's literally no evidence that actually points to it being from the plague at all wow yeah and now that you said like all those things like weren't they didn't come about until like years and years later that's so crazy yeah that's snorts okay so then the last one i was going to do is london bridges falling down and london bridges falling down falling down falling down london bridges falling down my fair lady i couldn't remember the last one you got it i started it
okay i feel like you and i were staring into each other's eyes too as we were doing it someone's gonna say it i also wonder if the microphone i'm sure didn't pick it up but we were all rocking so aggressively to the right and left and then like yeah when you were a kid but you would hold hands with someone and then try to trap them this is how i got my scar on my the bottom of my lip no way i was i was underneath my cousins and they were trying to trap me and i think i like tried to run out really quickly and I slid into the corner of um like a wall oh my god you were like I'm not being and I
didn't get caught and that's all that matters blood is gushing down my face but basically people believe that this is because it took Look, the London Bridge has been built, rebuilt, attacked, caught fire, again, fallen apart so many times that it's kind of a reference to that.
And people say that there are so many pieces of the bridge now in the river below just because, like, pieces would fall apart, like, fall off.
That's so scary. So there was a medieval bridge that was the London Bridge, and then it was rebuilt and replaced in 1176.
Which took years to complete.
And it was during this building of the bridge that a really dark and morbid belief.
It's a superstition.
It's not real, I guess.
But the idea is that it was a superstition that the bridge would not stand unless they made a sacrifice to the gods and stuff.
And so they would bury people alive.
in the bridge and like brick them in as it was being rebuilt so there is this form of torture from the medieval times called immurement which is when a person is encased into a room with no opening or exits and left there to die so the lyrics that are take the key and lock her up seem to point to this and there's a belief that they would trap people in these stones there were were some articles that say children i i just feel like it's one of those examples of making things more dramatic yeah let's make it even worse yeah um and it was basically a sacrifice to the gods in order to keep the bridge
standing because this bridge has been taken down and actually i think the there so there's the medieval london bridge there's the old london bridge there's the new old london bridge and then there's the current london bridge damn the new old london bridge was actually like moved brick by brick to lake havasu arizona why yeah what did arizona do to there's like his american millionaire billion muslim billionaire who was like i want that bridge arizona was just like can i have it yeah they don't already have enough weird stuff yeah the london bridge yeah but so basically you would find some evidence
of people having been bricked in and they never have oh okay here's the best part about this nursery rhyme and it's very musical so the vikings they took on these conquests and they would attack they would murder they would take over cities so this belief is that they were heading towards london in 1014 they were setting off on their ships and they were getting towards the london bridge and this part i took some creative liberties um a man on the ship starts humming a tune under his breath he sees the bridge up in the distance i like it london bridge is falling down it's very very quiet and then
suddenly next thing he knows others are joining in and by the time they reached the bridge it was a choir of boisterous deep baritone voices echoing off the water all rowing to it rowing and harmonizing their parents going to the beach their war musical number and they tried to attack the london bridge i'm obsessed with that one yeah that's my favorite that is the one the vikings loved musicals they do they love a choreographed number they're brutal They're brutal and violent.
They will murder everyone.
But damn, they love to ruin things.
They will put on a show before they do it.
Yeah, they will. Good for them.
Their braids just billowing in the wind.
So those were our weird nursery rhymes and a little bit of information on Lizzie Borden.
But we're definitely going to explore more because not only is Alina a Ripperologist, she is now a Lizzieologist. And I'm joining on this one.
Yeah, Bordenologist. Let's go.
Let's become Bordenologists together.
I'm fully ready. absolutely we'll be your laugh track for that hell yes gasp track yeah more gasping yeah gosh oh it's happening all right so we're wrapping up this episode but remember you should go over to the two girls one ghost feed and listen to that episode where we're gonna go talk about all of the scary shit in depth that we experienced in the house have audio in there from it video like get ready all kinds of shit get ready yeah so with that being said we hope you keep listening listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that you don't go listen to two girls one ghost feed
to uh hear all that bye you're on the mic If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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bay hey weirdos you know ash and i have covered some seriously dark tales about romance gone really wrong oh yeah there are so many cases where too good to be true turns out to be exactly that well get ready for a love story that's gonna blow your minds because this one is happening right now and get this it's hosted by our friends hannah and saruti from red handed meet travis he falls head over heels for lily rose she's gorgeous she's understanding and she's literally perfect fict and she's not human that's right lily rose is an ai companion a computer program designed to be travis's dream woman and at first it seems like a perfect relationship but when lily
rose's behavior starts getting strange this love story takes a dark and twisted turn that no one saw coming follow flesh and code on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can binge all episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus us.
