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That's promo code morbid to get 30 % off your first order at smallwoodhome .com give your memories the showcase they deserve hey weirdos i'm elena i'm and this is morbid and it's morbid in the morning we've been doing a lot of morbid in the afternoon oh i liked that yeah so it's kind of like the song where it's like it's nine in the afternoon You rise through the skies of the moon.
I love that one. I do know that.
You can, because you did, so you do.
Feeling so good. I love the emo of it all.
It's so fun. I love it.
One time I was going to go to an emo night, but then it got ruined.
Yay. Yay. Also, that was Panic at the Disco, right?
I think maybe, but I'm doubting it now.
I think it is. Nine in the after Your eyes are the size of the moon You can cause you did so you do I love it.
I'm feeling so good Feel it.
Just the way that you shod Shod.
When it's nine in the afternoon.
But no it's the morning Here we are.
It's like nine in the morning Damn it it's not anymore.
It's not but it would have been great if it was.
A mahjong We should just say it is.
Because I don't know when this comes out but It'll be nine in the it'll be at nine in the afternoon somewhere there's like two weeks from now i will never understand it it's i feel like those the uh the like door guards in labyrinth when he's like i don't know i never understood it that's literally my permanent state of being yeah honestly same that was also a really good impression sorry i'm like holding in a little bit of a mouth noise right now i just had some alka -seltzer ash is feeling a little heart heart bernie oh you turn Turn 27 and then you just die.
It all goes to hell.
Honestly. I woke up early and I got on my treadmill action this morning, but then that moved things around.
It moves it all around.
It makes it burn. Yeah.
And then I had like a nice like health breakfast. But then I did see that you had mini muffins for your children.
And I said, oh, I happen to be one of those children.
So I ate a little mini muffin.
And you would have thought that I ate a blazing bowl of fire.
You would have thought.
But now I had Alka -Seltzer.
So Alka -Seltzer for me works like right away.
That's good. Did you have you?
You've had heartburn, right?
I had it when I was pregnant a little bit.
Can you have Alka -Seltzer when you're pregnant?
I'm pretty sure you can.
I just did Tums. Oh, see Tums is it like redoes it.
Oh, yeah. It's a thing.
But it wasn't bad enough when I was pregnant that I think it bothered me.
I think I also ate bread and it helped.
Eating bread does help.
Any excuse to eat bread really.
Yeah. May I please have bread?
but yeah here we are here we are um yeah i have a really sad case today obviously because you know you're listening to morbid yeah that's what you came for that's what you came for uh this one is crazy and i i don't want to like give too much away so i'm just going to kind of do like a cold start if that's cool with you i'm fine with that all right so we're gonna be talking about the murder of michelle nyreider today um and she was previously michelle michelle laundy and she met her husband lloyd nyreiter in 18 nope in 1989 oh i was like this is an old one no only you do this yeah uh they met
in 1989 okay which you know that's old -timey i guess all right no i'm just kidding all right but they met when they were both in high school she was 18 and she was in her senior year and lloyd was two years younger and they became friends over time and then when michelle graduated and she had her grad party that's when her parents remembered meeting Lloyd for the first time.
And that's kind of when he started coming around more often.
Okay. Because after the party, they started hanging out more and more.
And eventually they began dating.
Their relationship kind of developed pretty quickly.
And even though Lloyd was much younger, like given their ages, I feel like it's kind of more pronounced.
I was going to say that phase in life.
Yeah, exactly. But even though he was younger, Michelle felt like he was easy to talk to.
He was smart and their conversations were never boring.
And that was something she She really liked about him.
Which like, we love a good conversationalist. So after Lloyd graduated from high school in 1991, they did get married and then they went off to college.
Well, he went off to college, the same one as Michelle.
She had already gone.
She was already there.
Yes. But now he went into engineering and Michelle ended up getting her degree in English.
And after college, they continued on the fast track.
And within a year of graduating, Michelle was pregnant with their first kid and then quickly got pregnant with their second child, another daughter.
Wow. Ultimately, they would end up having three daughters, but their second daughter they named Carrie after Michelle's sister.
Oh, that's really sweet.
That's adorable. Why didn't Elena name one of the children Ashley?
Sorry. It's fine. Can't go back.
No, I'm glad you didn't.
The name is far too common. Now, the family moved to a pretty big farmhouse in Corning in upstate New York.
Lloyd got a job working as an engineer with Corning incorporated.
Wow. Good job. Good job.
Now, the move kind of seemed like a step in the right direction for the family.
But also at the same time, the stress of moving and kind of like starting a new job and everything started to bring out some of Lloyd's, you could say, less attractive character traits.
Uh -oh. Michelle's mother, Jeannie, had seen some of those qualities all along, though.
She told reporters he was arrogant from the beginning.
Oh. Yeah, she never really liked Lloyd.
She wasn't into it.
she wasn't into it and she also was just like i don't really understand like what my daughter sees in this guy which that's never good no but because she and her husband really respected their daughter they kept their thoughts to themselves and the thing was they weren't the only people who felt like this so it wasn't like well their standards are just too high it was no other people felt this way too uh michelle's sister carrie the one that her daughter was named after she started noticing things about lloyd that made her a little bit nervous like he had very very high very unreasonable expectations
of his family she said he would snap his fingers and they'd line up and they would stand there like little soldiers oh i hate that i feel have you ever seen a family like that yeah and you're like oh yeah and you're just like i don't know about like that makes me nervous yeah yeah because that's not that to me like this the way it's being described here and i'm just saying it's just my opinion that this that's my opinion that this feels more like um fear -based and not respect -based yes i definitely think like it's not just respect i want to listen to what you have to say it's like i'm scared not to
and i would know i don't want my kids no you don't want to be scared of you i actually remember one of my first business classes i had this wicked good professor i forget his name though but he said um he was talking about like being in a position of power and he was like had a whole discussion with us of would you rather be feared or respected?
And a lot of people thought that you had to be feared to be respected.
And I was like, I don't think so.
It's not respect that comes out of fear.
It's just fear. Those are two very different things in my opinion, at least. But to people a little more removed in the outside world, Lloyd actually seemed like he was a doting father to them, the people who were removed.
They saw the dad that brought his kids to ballet class made sure they're they were all put together you know but the cracks would be apparent to anybody who was paying close enough attention to see them a family friend Mina Raj remembered there were times when I'd call my mom and tell her that I was worried about or that I was worried about how strict of a disciplinarian he was it was sort of like you never knew when he would snap and if he decided he was mad at one of them he would call them over yell front and center oh Oh, come on.
These are little babes.
Dude, you're not, this isn't the army.
That's the thing. You're not a drill sergeant.
I'm like, do you think you're in like full metal jacket?
Like, get out of here.
It's too much. So by the early to mid 2000s, the Nyrider's facade of a happy family was definitely starting to slip.
Lloyd was still working at Corning, but his job was about to make some cuts because this was right around the time of the market crash.
So the economy was suffering.
And he probably kind of resented the fact that while his career was getting a little rockier, Michelle's career had actually taken off.
Oh. Because once all three girls were in school, Michelle decided that she wanted to go back to school and pursue a graduate degree.
Wow. And actually, eventually, she took a job teaching English at one of the local colleges.
And then a few years after that, she had this blog called The Professional Family Manager.
Oh. And her blog was gaining popularity and took off.
Oh, wow. Wow. It actually got nominated for a national award from Nickelodeon.
Oh, wow. Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
So she was doing really, really well.
Yeah. And her success only seemed to add to the difficulty between her and Lloyd.
Oh, is he one of those that can't handle it?
That's the thing. I feel like if your partner isn't celebrating your success with you, that's a problem.
Something's wrong. That's a big problem.
In my opinion. Yeah.
Because I can't imagine coming home to Drew and like telling him something exciting that happened and him being like jealous or like yeah being like annoyed by that yeah no that's not good like you should be able to celebrate each other when you when one of you rises you should be celebrating exactly but that was not the case here michelle's mom said that lloyd would quote often put her down with a smile on his face oh yeah so i do not like lloyd none of us do now if michelle's parents were concerned which it very sounds like they were.
They must have been really, really worried when Michelle slowly started cutting them out.
She was kind of backing away from them.
And by 2007, her relationship with them was non -existent.
Oh, no. So the mom figured that, you know, Lloyd probably had something to do with the daughter cutting ties with the family.
But of course, she couldn't really know for sure.
Yeah. In 2020, she told CBS News, I think that he threatened her either to harm the children or to harm her.
her geez and michelle's friend cynthia raj would later confirm that jeannie's suspicions of lloyd were actually spot on she reiterated a conversation that she had with michelle where michelle told her it was lloyd that made me cut off contact with them and then cynthia elaborated he didn't want her to have a place to go if she wanted to leave oh my god yeah that's really bad control control control control oh so in 2008 he didn't end up losing his job at Corning and a few months later he ended up getting a different job offer from a company over in New Jersey so if he took that job it would meant
it would mean that they would have a lot more time apart which would be good which would be good which is sad because usually when you have a family yeah the dynamic is like no we don't want mom or dad to take this job away and like be away from us but this is like no go kind It kind of seemed that way.
Now, so the separation to Michelle, she was like, I think this is a good idea.
And I think she was kind of just desperate for time by herself to thrive.
Because she was thriving, but she was probably quietly thriving.
Exactly, and being tampered down all the time.
Yeah, like not wanting to piss him off.
So I think she was like, you know what, fucking go for it.
So he took the job and the separation kind of proved itself to be something Lloyd wanted to make permanent.
after years of being separated in 2013 he ended up filing for divorce wow i didn't see that coming that's the thing i don't think a lot of people saw that coming i think they figured you know maybe michelle will get to that point eventually that's the thing i would have saw that but nobody saw it coming from lloyd no especially not michelle she obviously knew that their marriage wasn't the happiest marriage in the world yeah but she was shocked and her attorney uh susan bets bets gita beer said i know i put a little phonetic in there for myself she said michelle was surprised that he had filed
for divorce she had done everything she thought she could to do to make him happy and the family happy which is sad that is so sad but apparently in the years that he and michelle spent away from one another lloyd decided he really didn't have a lot of use for her anymore but what he did want was sole custody of their three daughters and michelle's attorney explained just how determined he was to get what he wanted this is insane the attorney said lloyd was relentless in using the legal system to harass michelle it just never ended there were 26 separate sets of filings post -divorce are you kidding
me 26 what isn't that insane wow so obviously during and after the divorce things became very bitter between them but things ings were more contentious than usual with these like court dates going back and forth yeah and in his court filings lloyd accused michelle of anything and everything he thought would get him full custody especially because he didn't want to pay child support because he was in a lot of debt my god now michelle on the other hand she accused him of trying to turn their kids against her so not long after the divorce she ended up selling their farmhouse the family house that They lived in together
and she moved into a smaller house.
It's still in the same town of Corning.
And their oldest daughter actually ended up moving to New Jersey to live with Lloyd and Carrie and then the youngest daughter stayed with Michelle.
Okay. So Michelle has the middle child and the youngest child and Lloyd has the oldest child.
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So the divorce and the fighting between Michelle and Lloyd obviously took a heavy toll on all of their kids.
All of these girls are like old enough to know what's going on.
Of course. And no matter what, like even if they're not, like our bodies pick up on that, you know?
Yeah. But everything seemed to show and carry the most of all the middle child.
She was in her junior year of high school when her parents divorced so she was at the age where kids usually distance themselves from their parents anyway but now she seemed to be avoiding her mom even more than usual a family friend rose caluchio i think is how you say it she said of their relationship it got more strained as she approached her senior year eek yeah so by mid 2017 after just years and years and years of bitter custody fights harassment abuse the whole nine michelle was shocked when she had a court date with lloyd and he was supposed to show up and this court date was going to
be addressing custody of their youngest daughter and he just didn't show up what and she was like we've been doing this for like years like oh it sounds like almost 10 years like how are you not they they divorced in 2013 now it's 2017 that's four years four years of this stuff and And then all of a sudden he just doesn't show up.
Like, what? So weird. So she texted her lawyer saying, I'm in shock.
Lloyd did not show up for the appearance for his petition for sole custody.
He did not withdraw.
He did not ask for an adjournment.
He did not answer the court's phone calls, emails, nothing.
It seemed like after all those years, he had just given up and walked away.
But Michelle's attorney was like freaked out by that.
She was like, something's not right.
You don't fight that long and then just give up.
No. No. And the attorney said, it was very unusual.
It was unthinkable, really.
Yeah, that would concern me a lot.
Me too. Now, since he didn't show up, the case obviously was dismissed, which left the youngest daughter in Michelle's custody.
So Michelle was relieved that this seemed to mean that they were putting their worst years behind them.
But at the same time, she knew who she was dealing with.
Yeah, Lloyd's not going to let this go.
No, she knew that he wasn't the type to back down until he got literally everything he thought he was owed. So what I think is that she probably was relieved and kind of trying to put the worry in the back of her mind and just celebrate a small win.
Yeah. So by the summer of 2017, Carrie was a sophomore at the Rochester Institute of Technology, and she was living off campus.
So that meant the youngest daughter was the only one still home with Michelle.
Now, on the afternoon of August 28th, 2017, a family friend came by the house to pick up that youngest daughter for swim practice.
Okay. And almost immediately, this friend got the feeling that something was very wrong.
He knocked on the door to let Michelle and her daughter know that he was there, but nobody was coming to answer.
But even though through the window, he saw what looked like an adult standing in the stairway.
Huh. And the thing was, Michelle and her daughter, like either one of them, usually came to the door pretty quickly.
So the fact that somebody was just standing there on the stairs completely motionless and like not moving and coming to the door or anything yeah was alarming so he was freaked out and he was like i feel like i should call 9 -1 -1 like i don't know what's going on here yeah so he did call 9 -1 -1 he said got something strange happening at our friend's house i thought i saw the mother standing in the stairway but she's motionless oh that's weird very weird so the cornish police sergeant john mcdivitt he was the first to arrive at the scene and he also looked through the little pane of glass in the front
door and he could see what the family friend had described to 911.
He said I could see a female laying at the bottom of the stairs and he also said he felt like something wasn't quite right there.
Well yeah. If somebody's laying at the bottom of the stairs that's probably not great.
Definitely not good.
So he entered the house and he was immediately greeted by the family dog who came running when the door was open but when McDivitt announced his presence nobody answered and the figure at the bottom of the the stairs did not move oh yeah he said as i got closer i could see there was a rope around her neck there was no pulse she was cold and stiff to the oh my god it was michelle oh now as far as he could tell in that moment it looked like michelle nywriter had hanged herself from a rope tied to the banister at the top of the stairs oh my god but more importantly in that moment at least was was the fact
that her daughter was supposed to be home, the 14 -year -old daughter, but now she was nowhere to be found.
Oh, no. So they're freaking out.
Yeah. So they quickly searched the house.
There's no child in sight.
There's also no suicide note, which they thought was bizarre.
So while crime scene technicians processed the scene at the house, the police began a search in the area for the youngest Nyrider girl.
Now, after a few hours had gone by, investigators got a call from Carrie, the middle daughter, and she said she just heard the news about her mom and she wanted to let authorities know that actually she had her younger sister and the younger sister was with her in rochester okay almost a hundred miles away from corning okay and this family friend remember is picking up the youngest daughter for swim practice yeah so why all of a sudden is she a hundred miles away so that's pretty much what investigators asked and through tears carrie explained explained why she had her sister according to her
she had gone home to corning on the afternoon of the 28th she wanted to spend one last night with her mom before her semester started she told detectives when i got there my mom started freaking out and she said her mom was quote unquote raged at her because she felt like carrie was taking lloyd's side in the custody hearings okay so carrie explained that as the argument went on and on her mom was getting more and more irrational she said she started freaking out and screaming and she woke my she woke my little sister up so i guess eventually the fight escalated to the point where out of concern
for the younger daughter carrie said she took her out of the house and they went back to rochester for the night okay so you know de -escalating the situation it sounds like all of this is sad exactly so investigators are hearing this and they're like okay okay and at first glance michelle's death kind of appeared to investigators like it really could just be suicide but friends and family were like there's no way like they vehemently disagreed with that for one thing putting the problems with lloyd to the side for a second michelle's personal life and her career were going extremely extremely
well her friend cynthia said she had a great job and it was not the place in her life where she would have committed suicide after all the really difficult year she'd been through and then her divorce divorce lawyer agreed and said I never believed it she was determined to have a successful life and she did that's it that's why it was so shocking to me when you said that I was like what yeah it seems like nothing here I mean not that we I have a full picture of her every day today but it's like seemed very sudden and out of nowhere right especially when realistically she would be celebrating the fact
that after all these years of fighting that he had given up he'd given up exactly you know I'm sure she knew he hadn't and that is like a factor there that it's like did you know that it was gonna be something awful was gonna come from this like he wasn't gonna let it lie right but the timing just seemed weird well and it doesn't seem like like it seems like she would fight for her daughters yeah and you know like she wouldn't just give up like that either right exactly you know exactly so the And that's the thing.
Other people who knew Michelle went a step further, and they said not only did they think that Michelle would not have ended her own life, but that if it was murder, they needed to look at Lloyd.
Yeah. They were like, before you sign that dotted line and decide how she went out of here, look at Lloyd.
I'm glad that that was like, everybody was like, uh -uh.
Yeah, like, no. And that same family friend that I mentioned earlier, Rose Coluccio, I want to say it is, she told Dateline, when asked at the scene what I thought my answer was I think he did it wow so that tells you something that's the thing when people are just off the bat like I don't know anyone in my life and I feel very lucky that I don't know anyone in my life that if they went they suddenly died that I would be like you got to look at this person like I don't know anyone like that no and it's like so if I knew somebody that the first thought in my mind was it's probably them right that it's
probably them and imagine having that level of concern for like a family friend or like a relative like that's awful and then to see it like this and be like it ended how i was worried it was gonna end right that i can't imagine so that here's the thing obviously these were michelle's friends and family speaking and obviously it's common for those people to be shocked when their friend or loved one maybe takes their own life absolutely and it's also pretty common that that they would reject the idea entirely and be like, no, they would never be the person to do that.
Because it usually does come seemingly out of nowhere to everyone around you.
It's not always very obvious.
But in this case, it wasn't just the shock of unexpectedly losing Michelle.
There was, as we all know at this point, a very long history of domestic abuse and violence in the family yep that friends and family were well aware of and very worried about yeah in fact when uh genie made it to corning that's michelle's mother after her daughter's death and she started going through michelle's personal things she started to get an even clearer picture of how dysfunctional michelle and lloyd's marriage had been she said i started finding court documents and i started finding screenshots of texts she was just constantly abused emotionally abused abused that's so sad it is now
when that was brought to the attention of the investigators looking into michelle's death coupled with some bizarre findings in the autopsy they were starting to think that maybe her friends and family could be onto something here because she might have been found in a manner that indicated suicide but what struck the coroner as very strange was when he discovered a u -shaped mark around her chin that suicide by hanging just couldn't account for because the the mark on her chin actually unsettled the police chief jeff spalding so much that he didn't want the label on the death to be suicide he
was worried that it was going to be written as suicide and something about this was telling him that it wasn't oh geez he said it appeared as though somebody had gone behind and thrown a rope over the neck and pulled back and down causing the mark oh my god yeah and he said he hoped that the autopsy would confirm their suspicions but unfortunately when the results came back the cause of death was listed as undecided undetermined causation so now they had to go back to the drawing board and once there there was carrie's story to consider next to the evidence she said that her and her mom had gotten
into this big fight the night that she died and she claimed it was because michelle thought that that Carrie was supporting her father over her.
Now, investigators realized, you know, of course it's possible that Michelle was upset about this.
But again, Lloyd had just failed to show up to the court and the case was dismissed.
So it kind of seemed like this huge stressor in her life was resolved.
Yeah. And under those circumstances, it didn't really seem like she'd be enraged at Carrie at that point.
Like, to get in such a big fight over this.
No, it doesn't add up.
No. And they also were like, Like, I don't really think she would be super hopeless about the situation either.
So, now they were leaning more toward the possibility that Michelle was murdered.
And even though the evidence was very, very circumstantial at that point, it did strongly suggest that her ex -husband Lloyd was worth looking into.
But there was a problem with the theory that he had something to do with it.
He had a pretty strong alibi.
when police discovered michelle's body he was nearly 3 000 miles away at a job interview in california oh however with that being said he had been in new york around the time that michelle had been killed oh he just got to new york after got to california after that so he just got there quick uh -huh okay real quick according to carrie her father had helped her move into her new apartment on august 26th and then he stayed in a hotel room that night and left for california on the 27th and had been there ever since okay but actually when investigators called to tell him about michelle he was still
in california and once he was informed that she had died he flew right back to new york huh and the first thing he did was go to the uh i think it's steuben county family court to quote turn off his child support and maintenance payments yeah you got to do that real quick was the first thing he did it's like do you want to check in with any of your children sir like their mother was just i mean just died yeah like what no now as he was leaving that courthouse that day he ran into corning police detective james volpe and james was like hey like you want to chat and weirdly lloyd seemed pretty eager
to talk about michelle's death really they sat down in detective volpe's car for what turned out to be a actually pretty lengthy interview you and lloyd he gave the same alibi that his daughter had given them a couple days earlier and he you know went on to say that he checked into the motel after helping carrie move he said they had dinner together and after carrie left he went to bed and then he said the next morning he met carrie and his younger daughter around 7 a .m for breakfast then he left the hotel and was off to california okay so volpe was like okay and then they went back to the station he
decided to check into that even further i'm glad and data from his cell phone actually seemed to corroborate the story that he had told investigators and kerry had told investigators but the security footage from the hotel told a very different story oh when investigators looked at the footage darn cameras those freaking cameras every time it's like jesus christ people look around yeah i mean or don't don't honestly but so they looked at the footage and they saw kerry and lloyd get to the hotel the evening after she moved into her apartment but when he walks her to her car later that night he
can clearly be seen getting into the car and leaving with her when he said he went to bed and then they met up for breakfast the next morning guy nope come on and then he didn't appear on camera again until the next morning and that was when he was supposed to be getting breakfast with his kids and the police chief there jeff spaulding pointed out he still appears to be wearing the the same clothes that he had on the night before lloyd's story was that he stayed at the hotel room all night the video evidence is saying no he didn't the video evidence is saying no that is incorrect so now the police
had evidence that he lied to them about his alibi and they were like well shit maybe he really did have something to do with this after all so combined with the physical evidence documented during the autopsy everything investigators were learning about lloyd indicated that yeah he probably had something to do with this yeah but they had to identify his motive uh which was pretty easy yeah the district attorney's office did some digging and they found out that he was quote not in a good financial place according to baker lloyd had over a hundred thousand dollars in credit card debt oh damn and he
was paying his wife almost six thousand dollars a month wow like child support yeah a hundred thousand dollars credit card debt like how do you that much credit card debt yeah that's a lot 100 how do they even let you spend that much i was gonna say how did it even get that bad you had it had to have been across like multiple accounts it had to have been yeah oh my god i remember the first credit card i got when i was like 18 i fucking maxed it out at like i think it was probably like three thousand dollars and it took It took me years to pay it back.
A hundred thousand?
It destroys you. It was a hundred thousand like you'd done.
I also was like, damn, what was your credit score?
Because mine was really bad back then.
It was like a 200. Oh, my God.
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baker was also who worked for the daa's office was also able to find out that lloyd had already tried to collect michelle's 260 000 life insurance policy which clearly would have taken care of his debt i am so glad that these idiots are so fucking stupid me too thank goodness because like two are you fucking kidding me my guy dude this is this is like jesus right out there like you have this much debt you already tried to first of all you immediately shut off all the payments why did you think that you were gonna get her fucking life insurance you've been divorced for four years like what but based
on what they'd learned so far the district attorney's office they believed that Lloyd killed Michelle and Carrie had either helped him or was helping him cover it up shut up yeah they thought she had something to do with it mm -hmm oh they couldn't prove it quite yet but they were like the way that she was covering for him they were like she either knows something about this or she participated oh no oh oh no I hate that yeah oh man so now they had a suspect with the means the motive and the opportunity to commit michelle's murder now investigators were they were able to get a warrant and they
put wire taps on lloyd and carrie's phones to monitor those conversations but it was november 2017 when they started monitoring those conversations and by that point almost two months had gone by since michelle had been killed so carrie and lloyd weren't really talking about michelle that much anymore yeah which they got i'm like damn that that was your whole last mom but yeah but like wow they apparently they got what they needed out of the situation yeah so jeff spaulding police chief said in order to kind of refresh things we did what was called tickle the wire that's precious which i fucking
love tickle the wire tickle the wire i didn't know that was a term nor did i apparently it's a tactic that police will use to make criminals think that they're under like super intense scrutiny so it makes them talk about about their crime more because they're like freaked out exactly so what they did was uh in late november they had detective volpe there called carrie and imply because you know that's pretty smart that's pretty fucking smart right they were like we found some new information and we're gonna need to talk to you like you're gonna have to come down so carrie took the bait and as
soon as she got off with the detective she called her dad and let him know that they were calling her back in and lloyd was like it's probably just a formality like there's nothing to worry about but he still told her quote i don't think i want you talking to them and then he went on to tell carrie that she needed to put the police off as long as possible he said tell them i'm sorry i got a counseling appointment back in new jersey tonight and like told her to make it seem like she was really going through it that's awful and then asked her could you cry and she She said, I might.
Wow. Yeah. So that was pretty incriminating.
This is some cold shit.
Cold and, like, locked up.
From her ex -husband and her daughter.
Yeah. Like, damn. Their daughter.
This is a daughter talking to her father about her mom.
Yeah, it sure is. And he's like, can you cry?
Like, manipulating her and they're like, fuck.
And that's the thing.
She's like a fucking teenager.
This is a father manipulating their child.
Wait until you hear what really happened.
Like, this is really just, this is cold.
This guy. This is sinister.
This guy. This given sinister vibe.
Very sinister. This guy is the scum of the earth.
Yeah, truly. And apparently, I don't know, we'll get there.
I really don't want to.
I was like. So the conversation between Carrie and Lloyd very much confirmed investigator suspicions.
But at the same time, it wasn't completely incriminating.
It was sinister vibes.
Right. it was that's what they said it was sinister vows they were like it's giving sinister vibe but like it's not incriminating but they honestly didn't say anything like wow i can't believe we got away with this kind of thing you know like it wasn't right it wasn't right out there just anybody looking at it would be like yeah exactly but you can't just go off of yeah you can't go off of a vibe you can't go off of a vibe no unfortunately you can't i go off of a vibe all all the time but i think like when it comes to the law they have this whole thing against that yeah that's the thing you but everybody
listening live your life off vibes if you want to oh please do good vibes only please but chill vibes only but yeah legally we cannot yeah no um and the other thing is legally you cannot get a search warrant off of vibes yeah you can't so one of the biggest problems that the district attorney's office was facing was the undetermined cause of of death on Michelle's autopsy so they gathered up all the forensic evidence and all the autopsy reports and they took everything to a private forensic pathologist for a second opinion unfortunately Michelle had been cremated oh no so there was no body to
examine but this private pathologist also noted the mark on Michelle's chin and he noted that particular hemorrhaging was there and was very suspicious uh -huh and after looking over some more papers he looked up at the detectives and the district attorney and said this is a homicide hell yeah he knew he knew good job so on january 24th 2018 five months after michelle had been murdered investigators visited lloyd at his office in new jersey and another set of officers went to see carrie at her apartment in rochester the one that her dad had knock knock knock quote unquote helped her move into to
so confronted with all the evidence that they had at this point lloyd still maintained that he was at his hotel in rochester all night and he said i'll take a polygraph test i'll take one right now like let's go cool so they weren't very surprised by his confidence because they knew between the two of them if somebody was going to crack it was going to be carrie of course she's a child and they were right yeah once carrie was brought into the police station for questioning questioning she told them everything which tells you she that she did not want a part of this like she had done her whole life
it sounds she snapped to attention front and center when he told her to exactly because she was scared of him and wanted to make her dad to avoid that's whatever what happened if he wasn't happy this isn't a grown -ass adult this is a child who She was being manipulated by their parents.
Exactly. It's really sad.
Against their other parent, which is some of the worst kind of manipulation you can imagine.
Well, and wait until you hear, like, how he manipulated her to do this.
It's terrible. I can't imagine being in the position that Carrie was in.
So, according to Carrie, she and her father returned to Corning after they did move into her apartment that afternoon.
And she let her father in the house.
And Michelle was standing at the top of the stairs when they walked in into Michelle's house.
Yeah. And as soon as Michelle saw Lloyd, she started yelling and was like, why the fuck are you here?
Yeah. So they started arguing and they eventually made it to Michelle's bedroom to argue privately.
And that's where the shouting continued.
Carrie said, suddenly everything went silent.
And at first she told detectives she didn't know why her mom had suddenly gone silent.
But eventually she admitted it was because her mom was dead.
So she told investigators she saw her mom dead laying on the bedroom.
floor so he just killed her in their bedroom in her bedroom yep while their child's children children oh god because the younger one the 14 year old was there yep exactly and she had no idea what was going on so carrie knew that was why her dad was in the house in the first place because he had actually come to her a week before this and told her that he couldn't afford the the monthly support that he had to pay michelle and he was in so much debt that the only way he saw out was killing himself he's a fucking monster you can't handle it dude figure it the fuck out your kids should have nothing
to do with your child support payments you go to your child and say i can't afford to pay for you so i'm i'm gonna kick it yeah what the fuck no anybody who goes to their kids and talks about custody issues and shit and like child support that's an asshole move and taking your own life like what the fuck that's a piece of shit move and so knowing that carrie's relationship with her mom was really strained at that point he knew what he was doing he knew carrie would choose him over the mom over michelle so he casually suggested an alternative plan he said well we could also kill your mother jesus
and he said all his financial issues would be solved so she literally sat there carrie in the detective's interview room and said i had to choose i'm horrified she was faced with that decision and what these children at 19 years old imagine what they dealt with as little kids no because if your father comes to you and is like hey either i'm gonna kill myself lol i'm not really actually gonna do that i never had any intention of doing why don't we just kill your mom but we could kill your mom because i can't afford the child support abort for you like what like what it's just gross it's i can't
it's like your brain can't even come up with that on its own so carrie went on to explain the rest of the night telling investigators that lloyd and michelle's arguing eventually woke up her younger sister who was at the house the 14 year old so carrie took her outside and put her into her car and she just told her to wait these poor kids she said that she then went back inside and when she got there her mom was dead so she and her sister went back to rochester and she said they left lloyd in corning to stage the scene to look like a suicide now based on the confession she was arrested on second
degree murder charges for the murder of her mother yeah she knew about it ahead of time i mean and she held like we talked about it this is a father manipulating her daughter so So it's very fucked up in every way imaginable, but she played a role.
You helped plan it.
And the law's pretty black and white, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately.
It's not your responsibility to stop it physically.
I mean, this is a grown man, you're a child, this is your father, but you called police.
Well, and she, I mean, she let him in the house.
That's the thing. Like this wasn't even the house that he had shared with Michelle.
This was the house that Michelle had gone on her own.
And it's the sad reality that it's like, you had a chance to stop it.
you could have called the police it's it's awful so with carrie's confession on the record investigators had everything they needed to arrest white now but they ran into a pretty big issue what he never showed up for that polygraph test at the police station that he said he was going to come to don't even tell me and officers lost sight of are you fucking kidding me guys they lost sight are you kidding me but luckily they were able to use data from his cell phone and they They tracked him to a parking garage in Princeton, New Jersey, where he was threatening to jump from the top floor.
Oh, fuck off, Lloyd.
Like, oh, you just murdered a whole ass person and involved your daughter and now you're going to jump?
You're still trying to manipulate everybody's emotions?
Get out of here. He was never going to.
Get out of here. So the officers in Princeton negotiated with him for over two hours.
Oh my God, what a waste of fucking time.
It's like, just come down.
We know you're coming down.
Exactly. So just stop.
So, finally, in a moment when he briefly looked away, an officer tackled Lloyd and placed him under arrest for the first -degree murder of Michelle Nye Ryder.
Carrie was taken to Corning that evening and formally charged on one count of second -degree murder, and at that point, she was denied bail.
Wow. So she was taken to the Steuben County Jail.
Lloyd, meanwhile, he was still in New Jersey and now had to be extradited.
So that was a whole thing now.
So two days later, on January 26, Carrie was arraigned in the city of Corning, and she entered a plea of not guilty to second -degree murder, and she waived her right to a preliminary hearing.
That's always so hard to say.
yeah a few days later lloyd appeared before a judge in new jersey where he waived extradited extradition proceedings and then he was eventually transferred also to steuben county so he and his daughter carrie were finally formally indicted in late february in steuben county new york in total he was indicted on seven felony accounts damn first degree murder wow and carrie was indicted on four felony counts second degree murder first degree custodial interference tampering with physical evidence and second degree conspiracy and district attorney Brooks Baker told the press this appears to be the ultimate
domestic violence case.
Oh, it's awful. What is clear from the evidence is this was not a crime of passion.
This was planned, calculated, and a purposeful killing.
And he destroyed Carrie's life.
A hundred percent. Like you not only killed this woman, her mother, but you destroyed her life.
Yeah, no matter if she goes to jail for 25 years or she doesn't go to jail.
Like you've ruined her life.
She's going to look back on this and blame herself forever.
yeah that's the guilt she's gonna feel and like the you know it's like this is this is so bad this isn't like a random person you know soliciting somebody to kill somebody it's like this is your father convincing you that this is his only way up like i can't imagine the emotional manipulation the trauma that these kids faced like that for her to be manipulated into that by him like the trauma they had to have faced while they were children up until that point must have been so immense from him even just those small comments that you heard from family friends like he would yell front and center
yeah that's the thing it's like and people described like him as making their appearance immaculate like kids are not meant to be immaculate no they're meant to be like just wild and you know it's like they should have jam on their face they should like sure are there moments where you want your kids to look presentable for like your christmas card you try to wipe their face you try to keep their hands clean you keep those fingernails clean like no it's like be kids it doesn't sound like they were allowed to be and that's the thing they weren't allowed to be kids because he was sitting there talking
about the custody issue and the financial stuff with his children which is something you in my opinion you should never fucking do no they should know nothing about your no financial situation your anything situation they should be kids and kids kids alone that's it they should never have to know about adult issues between you or anything like that and it's like when I talk about that all the time that's like one of my biggest things because when I was little I knew everything that was going on in my household I knew money problems I knew custodial custody I knew custody problem and you shouldn't
and like and it makes you have to grow up so much faster and then you look at other people's childhood childhoods and you're like oh like you weren't worried about like you were carefree like you didn't have to lend your mom your tooth fairy money like what oh my god that's so awful but yeah but like that's why that's one of my biggest things when I have kids is like our kids will be kids yeah exactly it's you can't and everybody can raise their kids how they want to because of course everybody's gonna raise kids differently but this is you know this is just our opinion on the matter so take it
take it or leave it but I don't I think this is really fucked up what he did to these kids this This is 100 % his fault.
You're not the only one that thinks that.
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now so from the moment they were arrested investigators knew that carrie would be the easiest one to flip she was young she really didn't have a direct involvement in the murder as far as they knew and she very much seemed to have a shit ton of guilt about what she'd been involved in so after a few weeks in while she was in jail the district attorney met with her to talk about a plea deal and it was during this interview that she actually revealed the shocking fact that despite what she had told investigators originally she actually had helped her father stage oh no carrie yes she didn't play
a direct role in the murder like her father very much murdered but he she helped cover it up she told investigators he opened the door and my mom was laying on the floor and he said he needed help lifting her we dragged her around the corner and he tied the rope to one of the prongs of the banister and lifted her up and put her or and she said lifted her up and put threw her over the side and she was sobbing while she was saying this i can't fathom this she was traumatized on another situation this girl was put into is horrific she was put into this situation she was emotionally manipulated she
was oh that's horrible that's horrible she also admitted that her father had ridden in the trunk of her car all the way back to rochester and her little sister never even knew he was in the car that's terrifying she snuck him in the trunk and he stayed in the trunk the entire time that they drove back he's a fucking demon knowing that he had just murdered their mom knowing that carrie had to pretend like she hadn't just oh he's a piece of shit he's a piece of absolute shit this guy and the little sister has no fucking idea what's going on like and it sounds like carrie is just like she made very
bad choices of course very bad like unimaginably bad manipulated by a parent which is the worst kind of manipulation i can't even fathom that right and then i it almost it seems like she was also trying to protect her younger sister she absolutely who i'm sure she had to protect a lot from him yep like i'm sure that was became her a little bit of her job absolutely it's protect the younger ones i'm sure and it's like that's fucked up that they never been that's the role that she had to play all these different roles to to try to keep everything the way that she thought it was but like it's really
sad and again the whole thing secondary murder yeah uh -huh absolutely yeah you didn't call the police you didn't stop it in that sense in any way but damn this is an awful situation it really is because the sad thing is it's like she didn't have to do this no no way she didn't have to do this but then you look at it and you're like if she called the police on him and like he didn't go to jail what would have happened to her oh she just there's no way to put yourself in that situation there was no parent you know like and especially like that kind of situation none of of us can probably imagine
it right there really isn't there's no winning but like fuck it's a it's an unimaginable situation on every level truly from the beginning truly so she did take the deal in exchange in exchange for testifying against lloyd she pleaded guilty to one count of second degree manslaughter okay and she went on the record as having helped her father yeah so during the hearing she explained to the court how her father had confronted her with the ultimatum either she helped him kill michelle or he was going to kill himself and she said she didn't know what to do so she agreed to help and and so this is actually
like a thing that was done to her it has like an actual term because in later interviews brooks baker would explain that had undergone what's known as parental alienation it's a process where one parent consistently criticizes and devalues the other parent with the intention of turning that child against the other their parents oh yeah you can that's like literally something that you can claim in custody issues is like to keep them away from the other parent like because they will that like claim parental alienation yeah that's when you get like um a guardian a guardian at litem i think it's called
and that's when they kind of start to work their way into a situation like that which it's sad that it sounds like a maybe a guardian guardian at litem would have been a better answer here honestly Just because the relationship between Michelle and Lloyd had gotten so contentious that I think there needed to be like a third party because it sounded like the kids were being so affected by this.
And that sucks. That sucks.
Yeah, that really does.
That sucks that people do this to their kids and it's like your relationship with your adult relationship should not have anything to do with your children.
No, and it's so sad.
I don't know why I just thought of this, but like I was looking looking at pictures of them together because i try to look at pictures to kind of like understand who the people are and everything and there was pictures of like michelle and lloyd when they first got together and carrie and the older sister as babies just oh i saw i was looking at those pictures and they all look so so happy like he looks like a happy goofy dad yeah i think there's pictures of him like in the delivery room like yeah it kind of looks like when i was looking at some of them and he looked so excited and like happy
to become a dad and i'm like how did you is what your future was and how did you like go from there to turning into this fucking awful monster and again you want it like the marriage you want to end the marriage that's fine but like keep that relationship in that contention away from your kids seriously it's so like and it's like sometimes people are just not allowed to do that because the other parent won't allow it like won't let it happen it's like that sucks it's really sad and it's really tragic how toxic toxic divorce can become.
Yeah. Especially for the kids involved in divorce, and even when there's no kids involved in divorce.
It just sucks. Yeah, all around.
It sucks. I feel bad.
Anybody going through that, I'm sorry.
I know. That sucks, because I can't even imagine, and I would have no advice to give you, because it's just, I can't even fathom that.
No. And you can't. You can't prepare for it.
People are different in every situation, so.
Mm -hmm. Oh, it just sucks.
This is just a fucking terrible situation.
It's tragic. It really is.
So with Carrie having pled guilty and planning to testify against her father the da's office got ready for what they figured lloyd's most obvious defense would be that carrie was the one who had killed michelle and he was protecting her all along oh yeah because again all of the evidence against him was circumstantial so far and the only one who had confessed to anything was carrie so he easily could have turned around and like gone after if he does that well like he's a fucking monster but it's like how How low can you go?
Yeah, pretty low. Oh.
So District Attorney Baker was anticipating an uphill battle of a trial, so he went to Lloyd with a deal offer.
He said, you can plead guilty to the charge of first -degree murder, face a sentence of 25 years to life in prison, and the additional charges will drop them if you take this deal.
Now, at the time it was offered, like we know, Lloyd was facing several felony counts.
Yeah. With additional charges now being added after the fact, because it was discovered that he and his sister Wendy, Wendy Bonilla there, had attempted to bribe Carrie to change her testimony.
What the fuck? Fuck you, Wendy, too.
Yeah, they told... She actually ended up getting arrested, too.
Fuck both of you. They told Carrie that they would get her a lawyer, like one of the best lawyers, and that she would, like, get out of everything if she didn't do this.
What the fuck? Yeah.
What is wrong with these people?
I do not know. Ugh.
So he was now facing extra charges against that.
But at the same time, Brooks Baker, the DA, was like, I don't know if he's going to be the kind of guy that's willing to come to the table with a compromise.
This guy never backed down.
Is he really going to back down now?
But after weeks of consideration, Lloyd surprised the DA's office and he accepted the deal.
Which is shocking to me.
Yeah, I'm shocked by that.
So after the, excuse me, as with the deal offered to Carrie, Lloyd would have to go before a judge and explain on the record what he had done.
and at the moment he started talking baker was like oh no this entire deal is going to fall apart he said i thought we were going to go bad for minute one because he starts off blaming michelle wow blaming michelle but just as quickly as he blamed her he actually surprised everybody again by reversing his course baker told cbs he sort of said but that doesn't matter i have no excuse murder is wrong it's like all of a sudden he was like beep beep boop i'm supposed to say this like like actually i have to get a plea deal so let me anything you say after blaming the murder victim for their own murder
is uh it's pretty mute pretty mute so he did he went before the judge on october 12th 2018 he confessed that he had killed his ex -wife in order to quote take custody of his 14 year old daughter and to end the financial burden of paying michelle as part of a divorce settlement wow it's like dude just go back to court if you don't want to pay that much How much money?
Or just stop paying, even.
Like, even that's better than murdering someone.
Anything short of murder is a better idea.
Right? Now, he also admitted, obviously, to manipulating and coercing Carrie into helping him cover up the murder and enlisting his sister to bribe Carrie into changing her testimony.
I'm shocked that he just admitted all this.
He had to, or else he wasn't going to get the deal.
I know. I'm surprised he took this deal, like, forcing him to have to admit it.
I am too, because no matter what, he was gonna basically spend the rest of his life, or like the better part of his life in prison So two months later, he went before a Steuben County judge where he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole Bye!
And at the hearing, he told the court that he had found God No one cares.
And now he felt remorse about killing Michelle.
Good for you. But, was quick to add, and this is his words, not mine, Michelle was unstable and needed to be committed to a mental institution Oh, there you are.
It's like you really had to he's back everybody like how's god yeah so before the sentence was passed michelle's mom got to read her victim and bad statement and she said lloyd nyrighter abused and tortured my daughter for 25 years he coerced his own daughter into helping him kill her mother carrie is now in jail facing the possibility of years in prison lloyd nyrighter should never be given the opportunity to harm anyone again please your honor give him life without parole yes and that he did because it's It's like, this isn't just a gun.
It's bad enough when a man will kill his wife, the mother of his children.
That's unthinkable.
But to add your child into the fray and let them take part of the shit with you.
How do you do that?
That's something. My brain just explodes every time I think about it.
So he is servingly.
I combined currently and serving.
you know he is currently serving his sentence at the maximum security uh clinton correctional facility in dannemora new york and now that leaves us with carrie yeah i'm dying to know what's happening here so a week after her father was sentenced she went before the same judge and she was sentenced to one to three years in state prison ultimately she did serve two years of that sentence and she got released on january 16th 2020 wow now a lot of people even before and after her sentence was passed they went out of their way to convey that in certain ways she also was a victim like we've been saying
this whole time of her father's cruelty yeah michelle's mother so carrie's grandmother wrote in a letter to the judge saying i do not believe my daughter michelle would want a long prison sentence for her daughter she would want her to eventually lead a happy life wow which is that tells you all you need to know i think that's true yeah and brooks baker the d .a agreed he said if anything the more information i've learned about the methodology the father used to get control the more confident i am that this was the appropriate result see and that all tells you exactly they know more than we do
about what happened here and i'm sure it's way worse than we thought on his end hundred percent and that you know and i think carrie having to live mentally with what she was a part of the rest of her life i would say is a punishment in and of itself now reflecting on the case brooks brooks baker hard to say remarked having the daughter are involved was very unusual this is the first case i've dealt with where the child is involved in the homicide of a parent i hope it's my last i also hope that my guy yeah but that is the story of the murder of michelle and i writer such a tragic story and it sounds
like since carrie was released she's just kind of gone on to lead a very private life well you know i hope that i hope the best for her i really do i hope she gets the help that she needs yeah from what it was It was clearly a traumatic childhood and a traumatic, you know, young adulthood.
And I really, truly hope that her father leaves her alone.
Oh, I hope that she never fucking has to hear from that piece of shit again.
No, it's not a healthy relationship that's going to offer her anything.
In my opinion, at the very least. What a terrible case.
Yeah. That is terrible in every way that it could be terrible.
Poor Michelle. Those poor kids.
Seriously. And Michelle's mom.
Yeah. What a—I was like, damn.
am yeah she is incredible she laid it down about lloyd and then she laid it down about carrie being manipulated and the fact that she already had to spend so many years estranged from her daughter because of lloyd and then lloyd took her daughter forever yeah that poor poor family wow i also hope nothing but the best for them i know i hope everyone everyone that you know isn't lloyd yeah i hope they're they're driving well me too and i hope they're you know living a peaceful existence me too but fuck yeah but i hope that uh you guys keep listening yeah and we hope you keep it weird but that's
the way that you ever convince your uh child to murder your uh spouse because that's a fucking wild thing to do and you shouldn't have children if you're gonna do that yeah don't do that bye If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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