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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
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Visit audible.com slash morbid. On November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students were murdered.
Today, finally, the true story. Based on over 300 interviews, in their own words, family members talk about their heartbreak and grief.
Students and townspeople describe that terrifying night.
Police detail the dramatic investigation and arrest of Brian Koberger.
You've never read a true crime like James Patterson and Vicki Ward's The Idaho Four.
The true story, it's finally here. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash.
And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. 🎵 I'm just getting my Pepsi.
Pepsi Cola. My Pepsi Cola. If you've heard us reference that a couple times in the past couple episodes, it's because we recorded some of them on the same day.
So we're just talking about Pepsi Cola. Talking about it.
I took a break from mine because this is my case and I didn't want to... Drink in your face.
...have carbonation in my throat. Carbonation station?
I didn't want to be a carbonation station.
Nobody wants to be a carbonation station.
At least I don't think. are you i'm doing good yeah it's how are you how are you what is that from I don't know.
All right. I feel like it's from. How are you?
How are you? Oh, oh, it's it's another Ben and Ronnie plug.
I think we did one the other day. Ben and Ronnie from Watch What Crappens are brosifs.
Because whenever Lisa Rinna or like any of the housewives open the door to each other, how are you?
How are you? How are you, Garcelle? I love it.
You're right. Ben and Ronnie for crappins.
And watch Bravo and live my life. Watch what crappins.
Yeah. Yeah. Do it. Who cares what happens?
When there's so much that crappins. Took me a second, but I got there.
I was like, what are you doing over there?
I was having a moment. You were. All right.
Well, that was like a fun, silly intro for a minute and a half.
For a pretty grim case. Yeah, this is my case.
It's an Ash-centric case today. And it is the murder of Pamela Vitale.
And it is a very, very sad, senseless, fucked up crime.
Oh, boy. And I think we should really just get right into it.
I think we should. All right, cool. So on the night of October 15th, 2005, a woman named Julie Partridge was home and she was just hanging out after a long day.
She lived on Hunsacker, I believe is how you say it, Hunsacker Canyon Road in Lafayette, California.
And in 2005, at least, this was an area that was fairly quiet.
It was a community where people felt safe and, you know, a lot of them didn't even lock their doors.
Oh, boy. And that was until this night. On this night, Julie thought at first that she was hearing the cries of some kind of animal.
She thought she heard something outside in distress.
So she pressed her ear to the window to get a better listen, and she realized that this was not an animal.
This was her next-door neighbor, high-profile defense attorney Daniel Horwitz.
He was the source of the screaming. Oh, jeez.
And he was calling out his wife's name, Pamela.
Oh. Yeah. So when he got back home that evening after working on a case, grocery shopping, and getting a workout in at the gym, he actually didn't expect to see Pamela's white Mercedes in the driveway because she was actually supposed to be going out to the ballet that night.
And she would have told him if she had changed her plans.
They were always in contact. Yeah. And as Daniel walked up to the front door, he was confused but then completely shaken when he made it to the door because there was blood smears all over it.
I can't imagine coming into this kind of thing.
I really can't. Horrific. And he opens up the door and immediately sees the body of his 52-year-old wife, Pamela, lying on the floor.
So he drops everything where he is, his laptop, groceries, everything, and runs to the landline to call 911.
Now, it took the detectives a very small amount of time, actually, to find the killer.
And when they did, everyone in the community and anyone who was watching the news coverage of this case was fucking shocked.
Really? The police named 16-year-old Scott Dileski as the perpetrator.
What? And said that he committed the crime while in the commission of a robbery.
An open and shut case. A 16-year-old? Jesus.
Yeah, open and shut, you would think. No.
This case would prove to be anything but simple.
And by the time the trial came around, there was all kinds of rumored activities, or excuse me, all kinds of rumored motives aside from robbery.
They were blaming things like drugs, cartoons, and the devil himself.
Yeah. Oh. But first, more on Pamela. So Pamela was originally from Minnesota.
She just seemed like, I know we say this all the time, but seriously, some of these people, most of these people that we cover, it's like you look at their picture and you're like, you have the kindest eyes.
You seem like the coolest person. And then you learn more about their life and you're just like, Why did this have to happen to you?
It's always those kind of people. Seriously.
She seemed like she was just so cool. So before she married her second husband, Daniel, she'd actually been married first to a man named Mario Vitale.
Or Vitale, excuse me. Which is how she kept her last name.
Yeah. She'd met Mario in London while she was working as a flight attendant.
And together they had two kids. I think it's Marissa.
It just has one S, though. So I was like, is it Marissa or Marissa?
Beautiful name either way. Either way. And Mario Jr., a son.
Things between them kind of fizzled out over time, and they did end up getting divorced sometime in the early to mid-70s.
After the divorce, Pamela really just wanted to start fresh.
She was like, I am ready to get a change of scenery.
So she packed up her Fiat and the kids, and she made the move to California in 1978.
Things were really tough at first, navigating a new city.
She was a newly single mother. But this woman was a very hardworking woman, and she was determined to give her family a good life.
When she first moved out to California, she was working as a bookkeeper, but the salary just really wasn't cutting it.
So she would sometimes chat with her new friends in the area and neighbors, just about like the struggles of starting over and everything she was going through.
And one day a neighbor made the suggestion that she apply for a job at, I think it's Hewlett Packard, which is HP, the computer company.
That's so funny that you were like, I think.
So yeah, well, because when I was looking it up, it only said Hewlett Packard.
And I was like, what the fuck is that? What is that?
So then I Googled it and it's HP. It is.
And it's funny because I was reading another case today where somebody worked at HP and Oh, really?
Yeah. Interesting. Hewlett Packard is really making a time in my life right now.
He's really making a splash. Splish splash, Hewlett Packard.
But Pamela did. She applied. And in no time, she worked her way up the ladder all the way to a management position.
Damn, Pamela. I told you, she's hard working.
Yeah. Things were really great for her there, but she actually ultimately ended up getting laid off in 1982.
And she wasn't the kind of woman who was going to wallow about this sudden roadblock.
And instead, she was like, what else do I want to do?
Like, what's my next venture in life? But luckily, the thing was, was that she got a good severance package when she was laid off.
So she decided to take that money and enroll in UCLA.
Like, in her adulthood, was just like, yeah, I'm going to go get another degree.
That's badass. Yeah. Whenever somebody does that, I'm like, hell yeah.
And she enrolled in one of their film programs.
Good for her. Just like complete detour, like new chapter.
Something I love. Yeah. I want to learn more about.
Like, that's awesome. How fucking cool is that?
If you ever get a chance to do that, that sounds like a fucking awesome thing to do.
Right? So as she was studying there, she was able to get an internship with a studio and eventually used everything she learned to dive into her own career as an independent film producer.
Yeah. Jeez Louise. Say it with me. Boss B energy.
So as Pamela was grinding, so was her soon-to-be husband, Daniel Horwitz, though the two hadn't met quite yet.
Daniel at the time was working on his career as a criminal defense attorney.
That was his primary focus in life. But on the side, he actually also loved writing, and he had just written his own screenplay.
Get it. And his screenplay was based off some of the cases that he'd seen in his time as a lawyer.
Oh, that's cool. But the thing, he was like really proud of it and he wanted someone to read it, but he just didn't know anybody who would be interested in reading it.
Yeah. Until he made friends with Pamela's sister, Tamara.
Tamara. Tamara told him, she was like, oh, I'll get my sister to read it.
Like, let's see. So she's like, hey, Pamela, like you got to read this screenplay here.
Pamela's like, yeah, sure. I'll read the screenplay.
I'm an independent film producer. Of course I will.
Of course I'll read your screenplay. Hell yeah.
And she was like, yeah, I can offer some advice.
So, like, link me up with this Dan guy. Let's talk about a screenplay.
I love this me cute. And once the two of them met, the screenplay was the last thing on at least Daniel's mind.
Oh, I love that. He told reporters, quote, once I met her, I completely fell in love and no longer cared about the script.
Oh! And this is something that, like, he was super proud of.
Yeah. But he just walked into that meeting and was like, forget it.
Forget this. Like, who's this woman? Yeah.
I love that. So they started dating. Cute.
And at first, things between the two of them were long distance.
They were pretty casual. Pamela was still in LA raising her two children.
Her daughter was 15 at the time and her son 18.
But the more and more time they did get to spend together, the more and more Daniel and her wanted to be together.
Yeah. the distance was becoming a burden for them.
So when Pamela's son headed off to college, she and her daughter moved to the Bay Area to be closer to Daniel.
Didn't move in with him because I feel like she was like, nope, nope, I'm still raising my babies.
Yeah, she's a mom. Yeah, but moved closer.
And Pamela, always ready for a new challenge, actually took on a completely new job working in Silicon Valley as a tech industry executive at Informix.
Oh, okay. Which was a database software company.
Oh, okay. Like, this woman truly sounds like she could have done anything.
Yes, seriously. And didn't do anything. She was like, I want to do it, so I'm going to do it.
Anything that she put her mind to, she was like, yeah, I'll do that and I'll work my way to the top.
That's so badass. Yeah. It is. So that's the job she got while they were out there.
They continued to date, and then they got married in November of 1994 after her daughter also had gone off and moved out.
This breaks my heart, too, just thinking of how this started.
I know. Like, you're going through this, and I'm like... And just, like, listening to him, like...
Sounding like a wounded animal calling her name.
Like that's. It's awful. And that's the thing.
It's like we have to dive into this part of people's lives because it like shows you how fucking awful.
Yeah. And how many people it affects. Yeah.
Like her two children, her husband, her sister, her parents.
It's like I don't understand how anybody kills somebody.
I really don't. I really don't. But yeah, so they get married.
I just, I love it. Yeah. So throughout their marriage, Daniel and Pamela were both incredibly, obviously, hardworking people.
Separately and then together when Pamela began managing Daniel's law practice.
Oh, okay. Like this woman has had every job ever.
And it's not even like she's like losing a job and is like, oh shit, I have to figure this out.
It's like she gets like laid off. I'm sure like budget cuts or whatever.
And then she's like, I kind of want to do this job.
I think I'll try this. You know? It's amazing.
She sounds like just awesome. So she started doing that and they're working together.
Daniel was working on cases and also working as a legal and reliable commentator on CNN and MSNBC.
No big deal. He was featured on many segments giving insights into cases like Scott Peterson's murder trial and the Anna Nicole Smith case at the time.
Oh, wow. In 2004, the couple was actually building their new home on Hunsacker Canyon Road.
Pamela had a vision and Daniel said she, quote, designed the entire house and had, quote, picked out every stone and tile.
This was their dream home. This was where they were going to spend the rest of their lives together.
It was to be a 7,000 square foot home in the hills of Lafayette.
And they, again, were just, that was supposed to be it for them.
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Hey, weirdos, we need to tell you about something that has completely blown our minds collectively.
There's a new show called Lawless Planet that's uncovering true crime stories so massive, they're affecting the entire planet.
Post-Zack Goldbaum is investigating real cases where environmental destruction meets murder, conspiracy, and cover-ups.
We're talking about activists who disappear in the Amazon rainforest, whistleblowers who risk everything to expose deadly corporate secrets, and communities being silently poisoned while powerful people profit.
What makes these stories truly terrifying?
They're happening right now. This isn't history.
It's a massive criminal conspiracy unfolding in real time, with consequences that affect us all.
Each episode feels like opening a case file into the darkest corners of corporate and government power.
Trust us, once you start listening, you will not be able to stop thinking about these stories.
Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can listen to new episodes of Lawless Planet early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
Just like with any home renovation or building project, though, this one came with its fair share of snafus, if you will.
Words were exchanged between Pamela and a specific contractor who actually walked off the job at one point and left.
And also left Pamela and Daniel with a leaky roof at the time.
So it was a confrontation. Yeah. But by all accounts, those problems had been squashed.
And the home was on track to be completed by 2005.
And it was supposed to be everything they'd dreamed of.
The fall of 2005 was ideal for them. Daniel was actually working on a really high-profile case defending Susan Polk.
Oh. Yeah. Wow. I knew I knew this name. Yeah, you definitely did.
I was like, why do I know this person? Susan Polk was accused of murdering her husband amid a nasty divorce.
And Daniel said during the time that Pamela was the power behind him, making sure everything was always running smoothly.
October 15th, 2005, as we know, would change absolutely everything.
And just a side note, he was still actually representing Susan Polk while when this happened to his wife.
So a mistrial was declared because he had to be taken off the case like last.
Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's a case I want to actually cover at some point.
But I do know that that this case then affected the Susan Polk case.
That's interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah, so that morning, the morning that Pamela was killed, Daniel left the house just before 8 a.m. to attend a meeting that he was having about Susan Polk's defense strategy, strangely enough.
Wow. He was deep into the case at this point, but like I said, that too was about to change.
Now, after the meeting, he called home to chat with Pamela about how the meeting had gone, but she didn't answer.
That wasn't super weird. He was like, nothing really felt strange about that at the time because Pamela was always up to something.
She was go, go, go. And since she was going to the ballet that night, Daniel figured she was probably just running errands in preparation for the night, getting last minute things done since she knew she wasn't going to be home.
That makes sense. But since she wasn't going out right away, Daniel wasn't really in any rush to get home.
He was like, I'll see her at some point.
Yeah. So after his meeting ended that afternoon, he ran some errands.
He got a workout in and, like I said, ran to the grocery store before making his way home.
And it was about 6 p.m. when he got there.
And as we know, he was surprised to see her car still in the driveway and would soon find her dead inside.
She was laying in the fetal position and she had been brutally beaten.
So he called 911 and he just stood by her body as he waited for the officers to arrive, just sobbing and calling out her name.
I can't even imagine. Those were the screams that his neighbor heard as him just standing by her body.
I can't even imagine the disbelief that he must have been feeling.
I can't, like my brain won't even go there.
No. A dozen police cars showed up to the scene as well as fire and paramedics, but...
It was quickly realized that the former two's presence wasn't really necessary.
The responding officers found Daniel to be, obviously, very emotional.
And they remembered him telling that he didn't know what happened.
But when he calmed down, he was able to be cooperative with the detectives on scene and explained where he had been all afternoon.
And he was actually quickly ruled out as a suspect because...
I think they were able to look into everything that he had done.
I was going to say, it sounds like they could pretty much check against it.
Exactly. I mean, he's with people all the time.
Yeah. And at the gym and stuff, there's cameras.
Yeah. Because the thing is, I've read in some sources that his alibi was never followed up on.
But I would imagine it would have been easy to check security footage and follow up with the people who were at the meeting that day.
Yeah. Who were people that were involved in legal professions themselves.
Yeah, it just makes sense. Me too. That's what I think.
Exactly. Now, just after 9 p.m., the crime scene technicians arrived at the couple's home, and they were to process the scene.
It was very, very obvious to them that Pamela had put up quite the fight against this attacker.
She had suffered countless defensive wounds covering her arms and her legs.
It was noted that she was found only wearing a T-shirt and underwear, and that the majority of her wounds were inflicted while she was low to the ground, and they were able to figure that out via the blood splatter analysis.
Yeah. Aside from the body, there was a ton of evidence throughout the entire home.
There was a bloody shoe print left by the killer, a fabric print, which led the investigators to believe that the killer had actually been wearing gloves during the attack, bloody fingerprints all over the walls and other surfaces, a large heavy flashlight, which was believed to have been used to inflict some of Pamela's injuries, but not all of them.
There was also a water bottle and a bowl on the kitchen counter with blood all over them.
Jeez. And more blood found in the bathroom along the bathroom door walls and shower.
It was believed that whoever this was had taken a shower.
My God. Yeah. There was so much evidence in this home that it took the technicians three days to collect everything.
Wow. The autopsy on Pamela's body was completed by Dr. Brian Peterson, and his findings were that Pamela died due to the result of blunt force trauma to the head.
He couldn't determine exactly how many times she'd been struck, but he did find eight distinct injuries to the side of her head, 11 to the back of her head, and seven on the left side of her head.
My God, that is brutal. These injuries were so extreme that he claimed her scalp had actually separated from her skull in multiple places.
Oh, my God. And said that the injuries caused bleeding, quote, over virtually every surface of the brain.
Oof. Brutal. Like, when I said brutal, I meant brutal.
There's not even a word for how horrific this was.
Oh, my God. That's unthinkable. It's terrible.
There were abrasions and lacerations to her face.
Multiple facial bones were broken, including a fractured nose and multiple teeth actually dislodged from her jaw due to the force that she was hit with.
And there were blunt force injuries as well to her torso, arms, and legs.
My God. There was a note made, too, that, quote, three intersecting superficial incisions were made on her back that formed an H shape.
What? Mm-hmm. And there was also a deep abdominal stab wound that was inflicted either as she was dying or right when she did die.
Jesus. And Dr. Peterson believed that a, quote, smaller, irregularly shaped hard object, such as a rock, was used to inflict most of the injuries.
And also that Pamela would have died within minutes after the first blow to her head.
My God. So while this was incredibly brutal, all we can hope was that she didn't feel all of those blows to her head.
I sincerely hope that. So how does a 16-year-old factor into all of this?
What the fuck? Well, in 2005, Scott Dileski and his mother, Esther Fielding, were living in a house right down the street from Daniel and Pamela.
Scott and his mom had been living with their family friends, Kim and Fred, since 1999.
And when they were invited to live there at first, the house that they were living in in 2005 didn't actually exist yet.
Kim and Fred were building that house as well, and they were living in a trailer on the property with their children.
So when Scott and his mother needed a place to stay, Fred built them a plywood lean-to, basically like a shed or like a shack.
It was mostly constructed of mud and straw, and it was definitely not the most comfortable living situation.
But at the time, Scott and his mother really didn't have anywhere else to go.
They were pretty destitute. Yeah. So much so that when the shack became infested with actual vermin, they just had to live with it while they slowly tried to get rid of it themselves.
Oh, my God. Yeah. And they were said to only have access to shower once a week during this time when they would all go to – it was either like a family friend or someone in the family's actual house where they could go and shower.
That's really sad. Later, his stepmom would testify on his behalf that he'd been neglected as a child.
It is known that his father called CPS on his mother on two previous occasions, once in December of 1994 and once in April of 1995 for emotional abuse, but the complaints were allegedly not investigated.
Huh. Yeah. His stepmother also testified that his father wasn't a peach and that he really didn't do anything for his son other than ignore him and, quote, feed him fast food.
Oh, God. They, the father and the stepmother, had a big house that the stepmother actually wanted to invite Scott to live in, but the father didn't want him to live there, according to the stepmom.
What the fuck? Like, you had a child. Yeah.
You gotta take care of it, guys. That's part of the whole deal.
At least one of you does. Jesus. Preferably both of you.
Now, Scott was said actually to be a happy child despite all of this.
He was involved with the Boy Scouts. He played baseball for a little bit.
He did, like, pretty all right in school.
He wasn't, like... He wasn't like a banner student at all, but he did all right.
He did enough to get by. But in 2002, there was a massive shift in Scott's behavior.
His half-sister had been killed that year in a car accident.
Oh, geez. And though he was said not to have been very close with her, everything about him changed after that.
His own mother marked the event as the start of Scott's emotional detachment.
She said that he began dressing in black, wearing black lipstick and nail polish to school, and he grew out his shorter dark hair into a longer style that he kind of wore like swept into his face.
I'm sure you can see the pictures. His grades, which like I said, weren't ever remarkable in the first place, got even worse.
And it was to the point that he was failing multiple classes.
Yeah. Okay. So it doesn't really sound like a lot was done for him around this time.
Yeah. It's like that's the time when, I don't know, talk to your kid.
Bring to a counselor. Like talk to him. Talk to him.
Yeah. Just talk to him and then see what you can do from there.
Yeah. Yeah. Woof. As 2005 rolled around, Scott decided that he was done with school.
He didn't want to do it anymore. He finished his sophomore year and then decided he was going to drop out and get his GED.
His plan after getting his GED was to enroll in the Diablo Valley College the next fall and start taking art classes.
So he had a plan. Now, toward the end of the summer, though, he and his friend Robin came up with ways to start making money for the two of them.
They wanted to start growing and selling weed, but they didn't realize that that in and of itself was going to be a pretty pricey endeavor.
Yeah. Because of the cost of the equipment necessary to grow in the first place.
Yeah, you can't just be like, I think I will grow that marijuana plant.
Yeah, you don't just like throw it in a pot of water.
It's really not that simple. Nah. Yeah. So, no problem, though.
Scott just said, oh, we can use stolen credit cards to make this happen.
That's how we can get the equipment. That's a good way to start a business.
Yeah, start it on lies. Yeah. And theft.
And fraudulence. He figured that there were just plenty of rich people on the street he lived on, and he knew a lot of them left their cars and even their houses unlocked.
In his mind, it'd be really easy to sneak in, grab some credit card info, and then use it to order what was needed online.
Yeah. Okay, so yeah, the first time really proved itself pretty easy.
It's unclear whether Scott broke into John Halpin's car or home, but he was able to get the man's credit card information to order a $267 marijuana vaporizer.
I don't even know what that does, to be honest with you.
I don't either. I didn't think you would.
I was going to say, shocking. They offered it from Vapor Juarez, and they were dumb enough to use Scott's mom's name and address for the shipping receipt.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. John Halpin later explained that he'd actually been out of state between September 16th and October 23rd of that year, and because he was traveling, he wasn't really paying as close attention to his statements as he usually would.
Yeah. And that's why he didn't even notice the charge on his account until later.
But that was all Scott and Robin really needed to earn their confidence at this point and continue to gather their quote-unquote necessary supplies.
Yeah. So with that, they started a list of the other things they would need and decided that Robin's bedroom closet would be the best place to start their marijuana growing operation.
Okay. To which I say, dude, act like your family's not going to notice that.
Yeah, for real. Like, I know that you're adult, that you're, like... your parent or whoever you live with still puts your laundry away.
Like, I get that vibe. Absolutely. You can't just grow marijuana in your closet as a 17-year-old.
Like, I don't think it's going to work out for you.
No, you cannot. Yeah. Yeah. What a plan.
Yeah. All laid with the best intentions.
Yeah. Except none of them. Except none. Yeah.
So just days before Pamela was killed, her next door neighbor, Karen Schneider, was going over her own credit card statement and realized that there were three different charges from a company called Specialty Lighting.
She knew that she wasn't the one to make these transactions because she didn't have any Specialty Lighting installed recently.
No. So she called the store. The store's owner, Jackie, sent her the copies of the receipts of what was purchased and And it was then that Karen realized who really did make the purchases.
It was her neighbor from down the street, Esther Fielding.
So weird. Crazy. So weird. The store owner actually told Karen that she was pretty suspicious about the transactions herself, and she emailed the buyer saying that the credit card couldn't be processed.
But then that she received a call from the buyer explaining the transaction.
She said to her it sounded like a young person trying to disguise their voice, but she'd also never gotten a follow-up call from somebody attempting to be fraudulent.
Oh, my God. So she figured people usually trying to be fraudulent wouldn't call up With a follow-up call?
Probably not. So she just processed the card.
She was like, there's a lot going on here, but go ahead.
She's like, it's busy, you know? I got distracted.
Yeah, she's like, usually thieves don't call us.
Yeah, I mean, you would think. So I just processed it.
Usually thieves don't call us. I don't know.
It's just not something we run into very often.
Yeah, it's not common. So Karen realized that the charges were made by Esther.
And when she realized this, she freaked out because...
Weeks earlier, she had accidentally hit Esther and Scott's dog Jazz and caused pretty significant injuries to the dog.
Oh. And she thought it was possible that these fraudulent charges were part of some kind of revenge plot.
Oh. So she reported all of this information to the police, but figured that they would take their time following up on it.
And in the meantime, all she could do was think about the fact that someone had broken into her home to get this information.
Yeah. And suddenly she was feeling really unsafe in her neighborhood that she usually always felt very peaceful in.
Yeah, I would. And one night later was the night that Pamela was brutally murdered in that same neighborhood just houses away from Karen.
Ooh. So after Pamela was killed, Karen felt like there needed to be some kind of meeting to address the safety or lack thereof in the neighborhood.
Yeah. And luckily, so did the Hunsacker Canyon Road Association.
Yeah. They also thought they should have a meeting.
The meeting was held the afternoon after Pamela had been killed, and pretty much everyone on the street attended, including Esther Fielding and her housemates.
The credit card fraud was brought up almost immediately, and things escalated also pretty immediately.
Karen accused Esther of exacting her revenge by breaking into her home and stealing her information for random transactions.
And Esther was like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
At which point Karen handed over the receipts that she'd gotten from the owner of the lighting store.
Oh, man. And Esther's sitting there looking at these having no idea how her information ended up on this.
She's like, I did not do this, man. And her housemates, Fred and Kim, were confused about how their address played into all of this.
So all of these adults are like, what the fuck is going on?
Like, I didn't do this. You didn't do this.
What's happening here? Yeah. So when they got home that evening, Fred went around to all the computers in the home, which, by the way, was completed in 2003.
Hey. And when he checked Scott's computer, he saw that all the browser history had been deleted.
Oh. Sus. That is a little sus. So Fred wasn't giving up, especially since this seemed even sketchier now.
And when he was able to find information proving that Scott had been the one to make the transactions on Karen's card, he confronted Scott.
Oof. And at first, Scott completely denied any involvement.
He actually even suggested that somebody had broken into their house and used the computer to make the order.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yes, because fraudsters often steal a credit card from one home, break into another one, and process their fraudulency.
Yeah, I mean, you got to make sure you put some layers between you and the actual situation.
So you just keep more crimes. More crimes.
More B&Es. Just boop, boop. I don't think so, sir.
That way no one cares about the actual credit card.
They're worried about the B&Es. Exactly, exactly.
And they're using my computer. Ridiculous.
That's it. Fucking ridiculous. So Fred was like, yeah, I'm not getting anywhere here.
I'm going to leave it at that. And I'm going to go talk to your mom.
I think she should probably take over. So Esther does take over.
But she was worried that if Scott did confess, they would be kicked out of the house that they were living in.
Because remember, they're staying with friends.
And they've been staying at this house for years.
And it doesn't sound like they've had any issues up to this point.
But this would be a big issue. This is a big issue.
And if you did this and they find out, we might not have anywhere else to go.
The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, and magic.
Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mayor exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus.
Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondery app.
Oh, no. So instead of making Scott own up to his illegal behavior, she told him to get rid of anything that might implicate him.
Oh, this is bad. Not going to insert my own comment here.
Nope. I'm going to stay quiet about this.
Going to mind my own. That just, it happened.
That's a fact. That happened. Yeah. So days later, Scott actually did end up telling Fred what he'd done.
And he cried and he said he just wanted to fix this and get into school.
And he explained all the details about his and Robin's plan to grow and hold the operation in Robin's closet, at which point Fred called Robin's dad and spilled all the beans.
Oh, no. And he also added that he thought it was possible that there may be a connection between the fraud and Pamela's murder.
He was like, oh, I don't know. Something's just really off about this.
Like he just started crying and talking to me about this.
Oh, man. And like, how does this all line up?
Yeah. He just he had a feeling. Oh, that's that's like really chilling that he was like, I just have a feeling.
He was like, I just want to say this. I don't know.
But I think you should talk to your son.
Eek. So Robin's father does talk to Robin.
And when he confronted him, Robin confirmed everybody's worst fear.
Scott had been the one to kill Pamela. What the fuck?
Fuck. What is happening? What is happening?
What is happening? So the police were informed of the entire sequence of events by Robin, and in exchange, he was granted immunity if he cooperated with investigators.
Oh, boy. The next day, October 19th, 2005, Scott was arrested for murder.
Wow. From the moment he was arrested, the press were all over this story.
What could have driven this teenager to murder a woman he'd never even met and in such a brutal fashion?
Yeah. Everybody wanted to know. So they found out about Scott's early life with Esther.
Everybody started digging more into that, digging more into his past.
Yeah. And they found out that he'd been born in San Francisco in October 1988 and how his parents divorced two years later.
His mom, Esther, was his primary caregiver.
And they were, like I said, often living even below poverty level in different and precarious housing situations throughout Northern California.
When Scott was six, his mother remarried, but the marriage only lasted a few years.
And during those years, Scott claimed that he was actually abused by his stepfather.
Oh, okay. His mother, his biological parents, mother and father.
I'm saying oh to the six-year-old, by the way.
Yeah, of course. Absolutely. His parents, they said that they didn't have any knowledge of this at the time and they didn't know this was happening.
But when that marriage ended, Scott and Esther moved into that lean-to shack next to Kim and Fred's trailer, and shortly after that was when Scott's stepsister was killed.
Now, apparently that accident, this is so sad, took place as the driver of the car that killed his sister and the two other passengers, that driver was planning to take his own life.
Oh. And ended up crashing with them and killing them.
Oh my God. Yeah. It was absolutely tragic.
Oh, that's awful. Now, even though Scott changed after that event, he was actually still known by his teachers and other adults in his life to be a quote, well-behaved youngster who never had been in trouble, was respectful, helpful, and never displayed any anger.
Wow. That's And Esther said that her son had never used drugs or alcohol and that actually the sight of blood made him faint.
So she had no idea how this could have been her son.
He wasn't who everyone was trying to make him out to be.
Wow. And when you look at pictures of him, he looks like a normal kid.
Yeah. There's like that drastic picture of like the change after everything happens.
Yeah, of course. But even then you're just like, okay, this is a goth kid.
Exactly. Like he doesn't look like – vicious and angry no not at all which is scary but of course that's the picture that everybody yeah of course of course you're like evil exactly so esther said no no that couldn't be my son never done drugs never touched alcohol blood makes him faint that's wild not true I was just going to say that's wild.
One might say too wild to believe. Too wild.
During the trial, Scott's parents would learn that he had tried a myriad of drugs.
He'd smoked weed regularly, but had also tried cocaine, ecstasy, and acid.
And for a period of time between the ages of 10 and 12, he'd been smoking heroin.
Wow. 10 and 12? That's how unaware they were.
That is some... Neglect. Negligence, I would say.
Yeah. 10 and 12. Smoking heroin. You don't know that your 10 to 12-year-old is smoking heroin?
Like, how do you... What? What? Two and two does not equal four there.
Like, that is wild. No. That's incredibly wild.
No. Scott's second defense attorney, Ellen Leonida, described the various adults in Scott's life as having profound narcissism and called them self-centered.
His first defense attorney actually had to step away from the case and a bizarre twist of events when he realized he'd actually defended the driver that had killed Scott's stepsister.
What? Yeah. That was the DA given to him, and then the guy was like, oh, I can't take this case.
Like, nope. So that's when he ended up with Ellen Leonida.
That's wild. The media also learned that Scott wasn't said to have many friends at school and was generally treated as an outcast, but that he did have a small group of friends, including his girlfriend Jenna Reddy, who would become a prime part of this case at trial.
The summer before he killed Pamela, he supposedly started becoming more and more detached from this small friend group and started taking more walks by himself, they said.
So when the news broke that Scott had been arrested, there were mixed reviews.
Some people, those that knew Scott as a loving and caring kid, were absolutely fucking shocked.
Others said they weren't really that surprised.
And then some schoolmates of his said that he was known to be an instigator and somebody who liked trying to get attention, but at the same time, they never thought that he would kill somebody for attention.
Yeah. Now, in addition to everything that Robin shared with the investigators, detectives also found a shockingly large amount of evidence pointing to Scott.
Whoa. So even though she tried to help him get rid of evidence that would have proved his guilt in the fraud scheme, detectives were still able to find a lot of evidence in his mother's van.
There were papers, files. They also said that there were dead rodents and animal feces within the van.
Ew. There were sections of the van's interior that also tested positive for blood.
Oh, Scott's girlfriend, Jenna, had in her possession a red backpack of Scott's that he'd given to her on the night he confessed the fraud scheme to Fred.
Wow. Before he confessed later that afternoon to Fred, he and Jenna had actually gone to a Renaissance fair together, and she said that he bought her a skirt to wear to the fair, and Jenna testified when she asked how he got the money to get that for her, he told her, I have my ways.
Oh. Yeah. And at the time, you're not, you wouldn't think anything of it.
No, she's just happy that she's got a new skirt, you know?
Like, you think he's just being saucy, being like, I have my waist.
Exactly. But in reality, oof. In reality.
Looking back on that must be like, ooh. Yeah.
So after confessing to Fred, he gave the backpack to Jenna to take care of, and she evidently didn't look inside, I'm assuming.
Yeah. The police were able to obtain that bag, and inside they found bloody clothing, a ski mask that had been worn during the attack, and gloves that matched the fabric patterns found at the scene.
How did she not look in that bag? And how was he so trusting that she wouldn't look in that bag?
I have my opinions. Yeah. That's a lot. For him to just hand that bag over and not be like, don't look in this bag.
I am of the mind that maybe Scott wasn't the only person there that day.
I'm not saying who I think else was there.
I'm not saying I think Jenna was there, but I don't think he was alone that day.
And there's a reason I don't think he was alone that day, which I'll get into.
So investigators also found DNA evidence on Pamela's body that was a match for Scott.
So like, I mean, that's just. How do you get past that?
Open close. He tried to say that he had seen her earlier on the road that day.
No. And she grabbed his arm and scratched him.
No. But that made zero sense. Of course it does.
His DNA was not only found under her toenail, but also on her coffee cup.
And a bloody shoe print found at the scene was a match for a pair of his Land's End shoes.
Come on. So, like, you saw her on a walk or you were in her home?
Yeah, exactly. Because how did your DNA get into her toenail?
Yeah. I don't think so. No. Ridiculous. So two days after he was arrested, on October 21st, Scott was formally charged with first-degree murder with special circumstances of a first-degree burglary, a first-degree residential burglary, first-degree... I was about to say that again.
And an enhancement for using a dangerous weapon to bludgeon her.
Oy. He would have been tried as a juvenile were it not for the brutality and nature of the crime.
Yeah, I mean, the brutality is outrageous for anything.
But never mind, you're in there just to burglarize?
It's wild. Jesus. So because of it, he was tried as an adult.
But because of his age, the death penalty was taken off the table.
Now, at this point in time, crimes this brutal that were committed by children were often blamed on an outside source, whether that be dedication to the devil, heavy metal music, violence in video games, etc., etc.
You wear black. Yeah, shopping at Hot Topic, like ridiculous.
Very normal things to blame homicide on.
Yeah, you know, this case was no different though.
Scott's turn toward dark interest and suddenly pulled back and sullen demeanor were a huge focus of the case, especially on the end of the media.
They were obsessed with the fact that he was weird.
You couldn't possibly just say like, he's a homicidal asshole.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, never. We can't just leave it at that.
But not only was the media focusing on them, the court was too.
Of course. Like, the lawyers involved, they were making their arguments off of some of the most ridiculous things.
Yeah, taking a page from West Memphis 3.
Yeah. People were telling the media that Scott always dressed in black clothing and that he wore a trench coat to school until he was asked not to.
And somebody said they saw him reading the Book of Satan and dancing around pentagrams that he'd drawn in chalk.
Okay. As far as I know, there actually is no Book of Satan.
Also, like... That's just silly. Like dancing around a pentagram that you drew in chalk.
So it's like, that's just. Not in the 90s.
That wouldn't be scary. It would just be like, well, that's silly.
Yeah. Like what silly behavior. Not in the early aughts, baby.
Like that wouldn't be scary to me. I'd be like, wow, that's jaunty and silly.
I'd just be like, huh. Do you. And then I'd move on with my day.
Do you. Yeah. I'm gonna do me. Yeah. But anyway, inside the courtroom during jury selection, potential jurors were asked about, quote, their familiarity with goth culture or the Wicca religious movement.
Jesus. And whether they had read books about psychopaths, serial killers, and Jack the Ripper.
Okay. And they were asking specifically about Jack the Ripper because Scott's girlfriend said he had a fascination with the killer.
So they were asking jurors. They were like, you know anything about that Jack the Ripper?
I'd be out. Do you have any fascination with Wicca?
I also love that it's like Jack the Ripper.
You think you're going to get anyone who doesn't know who Jack the Ripper is?
No, no, no. Have you read books about it?
Oh, you had to specifically have read a book?
You couldn't just know some information?
Do you read books about it? Yeah. Or do you know anything about the Wicca religious movement?
The movement. It's a movement, man. What are you all talking about?
That's so satanic panic. One juror actually said later that he was asked if his hobby of role-playing and dressing up like people did in Renaissance times was because he was, quote, visiting the dark side.
Apparently, he simply just said, no. Nah, just LARP.
That's just LARPing. But it was clear that this sadly would be a huge part of the case.
And I say sadly because one, it makes a mockery of this trial when the main concern is putting a A woman was brutally murdered, and this is a fucking circus.
Yeah, and two, there are plenty of other things in this case to focus on other than Satan and Invader Zim.
Exactly. I don't know. Maybe look at his upbringing.
Yeah, exactly. Maybe look at the fact that some people are just friends.
Fucked up murderers. Also, did you think that I was like being jokey, LOL, when I said Invader Zim?
No, I didn't. No, I was serious. I did not.
You really did hear that right. At one point, it was insinuated that Scott was inspired by an episode of Invader Zim called Dark Harvest.
Okay. Yeah. They really brought that into the courtroom.
Really brought invader Zim in there. Like, how do you bring invader Zim into this?
You're like, guys, you got it. I don't know why we try to blame it on so many things.
It's like he murdered someone. Right. So can we just leave it at that?
That's the thing. And just figure out the facts of what happened here and who gives a shit.
Let's go over the evidence. Yeah. Let's go over the motive and let's leave invader Zim on Nickelodeon.
Yeah. Okay. Wow. So nonetheless, the trial began on July 27, 2006, and in his opening remarks, the prosecutor, Harold Jewett, explained to the jury how this teenage boy, who was enthralled by gothic symbols and other ritualistic behaviors, broke into his neighbor's home, beating, stabbing, and ultimately killing Pamela.
Jewett explained that this was a case of mistaken identity.
What? You can do that with DNA? No, no, no.
This is the prosecutor saying this. Oh, sorry.
I thought you were saying it was the defense, and I was like, I'm sorry, what?
No, no, no. He said this was a case of mistaken identity.
Okay, that makes more sense. And that Scott believed he was in the home of Karen Schneider.
Eek. Like he had swapped the houses. Oh, that's chilling.
He said that he was prepared to break into her home that day, Karen's home, and and kill her because she had thwarted his scheme, injured his dog, and all of his built-up rage was going to be taken out on her in this moment.
Wow. Which I could see that being the case.
I was just going to say, that is... That's chilling.
Mm-hmm. And it kind of, you can see it. You can see it.
Ooh, ooh. He either didn't realize or simply didn't care that he was in the wrong home and proceeded to hit Pamela in the head and face with what they believed was a piece of crown modeling and stabbing her with a knife that he'd brought with him.
He hit her with crown molding? Yes. That's, holy shit.
Yes. Jewett supported his case with evidence like a note found in Scott's room that read, quote, knockout, kidnap question, keep captive to confirm pin, dirty work, dispose of evidence, cut up and bury.
Whoa. He explained that this was Scott's plan to kill Karen Schneider.
And then he went through the physical evidence in the case and called on a number of witnesses to testify.
Scott's girlfriend Jenna was called upon to testify that Scott and her had talked about all the different ways in which you could kill a person.
And Scott had allegedly said, according to her, that, quote, shooting people would cause less pain than bludgeoning and wondered how many times a person would have to be hit in the head before they died from it. oh my god who fucking talks about this you need help if you're sitting there having that discussion with your romantic partner what the fuck yeah that's dark on a whole different level what about that yeah is is what you have a conversation about what no no no like you don't think like you're not getting into that being like wait what are we what are we talking about here it At one point, one of you has to be like, what is going on?
Where have we traveled? And that conversation went way further than that.
But it went to a place that like not even I'm going to sit here and talk about today.
Oh, boy. It involved like kids and shit.
Oh. Like dark, dark conversations. Oh, my God.
What is wrong with them? A lot. A lot. A lot.
Many of Scott's paintings and drawings were also shown in the courtroom, which I personally don't necessarily agree with.
I think art is art. But many of them featured violence and provocative symbols, such as one with a swastika.
Oh, yeah. Okay, well, yeah, that. No. Not again.
That I'm like, yeah, present that to the jury.
Throw that one in there. Eerily enough, there were multiple sketches that showed a symbol that was nearly identical to the one carved into Pamela's back.
Oh, I forgot that there was a carving. Mm-hmm.
A lot of his sketches and artwork had a very similar symbol.
Oh. It's almost like a signature? It sounds like it, yeah.
Like some kind of, oh. Mm-hmm. Now, with his closing arguments, Jewett told the jury that Scott was, quote, Oh, man.
Yeah. Either way, he had premeditated and carried out murder.
Yeah. It just, if it was not intended to be her, it doesn't matter.
You still... You still plan to murder someone.
Exactly. And went out there with a knife.
Yeah. Ready to do it. And a ski mask. And...
Like, what were you doing? So Scott's defense attorney, Ellen Leonida, was up next.
And with all the physical evidence against her client, she was going to have a hard time arguing his way out of it.
Yeah. She simply argued, this was her argument, oh boy, was that Scott was at home when Pamela was killed and the police had the wrong man.
No, he was at home. You're really going with that?
He was at home. You're really going to go with that?
She said, yeah. All those years of law school and that's what you're going to go with?
Uh-huh. She said that her client woke up early on the morning that Pamela was killed and that he'd gone for a walk because he wanted to see a waterfall he'd been told about.
It wasn't too far from where he lived. He got up just before 11 a.m., answered a phone call for his mother at 2 p.m., and later that day, after hanging out at home, was picked up by his girlfriend and spent the night there.
As far as physical evidence went, though, she couldn't argue some of it, but the glove that the prosecutor said was found among bloody clothing in Scott's possession didn't contain his DNA inside of it, she argued.
But Elle Woods would do a better job here.
Elle Woods did do a better job. She would.
But she was correct. Those gloves had another person's DNA inside of them, which is why I think, I do believe he was there.
I mean, Scott's DNA was found underneath her toenail.
I think he was there. Of course. But who was wearing those gloves?
Because he wasn't if his DNA is not inside of them.
As he's carrying out that brutal of an attack, his DNA would have been inside those gloves.
So who was there? Huh. Mm-hmm. And I'm literally reaching for a different galaxy here, so just bear with me.
Just don't pull a muscle. I probably will.
But the only way that could be even humanly possible is that those gloves belonged to someone else and he was wearing two pairs of gloves.
That's literally the only – if I were her, that's what I would argue.
So she maybe would have done that, but it would have been kind of hard because those gloves came from a costume trunk of Scott's mother's.
So there's that. So there is that. So that's a problem.
But interestingly, there were two profiles found within the glove, and neither was a match for Scott.
Two profiles. Huh. But all the rest of the clothing and the DNA on the backpack were a match to Scott.
And again, had Pamela's blood soaking them.
And they weren't able to say anything about the profiles in that glove?
Like, hmm. That's interesting. Fascinating.
So in response to her claim that her client had gone on a walk the morning of Pamela's murder, Jewett then was able to call on several people who lived in the same house as Scott.
They all testified that, yeah, he had gone on a walk, but when he came back, there were fresh scratches on his face and that he was actively bleeding from a cut on his nose.
His girlfriend also confirmed that she saw fresh scratches on his face that night and noticed that his arm and wrist were swollen.
Is anyone asking any questions here? I don't know.
Is anyone talking to each other around here?
I'm asking a lot of questions. We're talking to each other.
I'm going to be honest. I would at least be like...
You doing okay? Hey. What's going on? Why is your wrist swollen?
Just ask the question. Why are you bleeding?
Yeah, why do you have scratches all over your face?
If a kid that lives in my house comes back with scratches all over his face and he's bleeding actively from the nose, I might say to him, hey, bud.
Yeah. What happened on your walk? Yeah, I would definitely be...
I'd be questioning. Usually. I'd be inquisitive, I think.
I'd scratch my chin and go, hmm, yeah. And then I would ask a question, because that's what you should do.
Yes, investigate. Talk to your damn kids.
Now, Fred told police originally that he had seen Scott at 9.30 a.m., On the morning Pamela was killed.
But then Fred actually retracted that statement and said he honestly couldn't remember if he had seen Scott at all that day.
Okay. And other people in the house said they saw Scott before he went out on his walk and that he most certainly did not have those scratches when he had left the house, but he did have them when he came back.
Okay. And Kim, Fred's wife, said that she remembered Scott coming home from his walk and said that he came into the house, quote, with an exaggerated step, smiled broadly and said in a rather loud voice, I had the most beautiful walk this morning.
And she said it was almost like he was performing something that everybody would remember.
Oh, that's really creepy. Yeah. I hate that a lot.
And also it's like, this is my alibi. I went on a walk.
I hate that a lot. Yeah, me too. Wow. Now, defense attorney Leonida came back and called different teachers to the stand to testify on Scott's behalf and to defend his artwork.
All of the teachers called to testify did remember that he was peaceful, calm, and respectful.
And another teacher noted his artwork and said she actually posted it in her classroom and found it to be exceptional.
This was obviously not the one with the... Not the swastika one.
Exactly. Yeah. And she said that the violent content within Scott's drawings really wasn't even that surprising given his age and that, quote, probably 20% of her other students produce artwork with violent or gruesome aspects.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't really think that specifically by itself is something to worry about.
No, especially because art has nothing to do with this case.
Yeah. I think the main reason why those were presented to the court was, one, the swastika shows that he has hate inside of him.
Of course. I would think. Yeah, absolutely.
And then the symbol that was drawn on the artwork was also similar to the one carved into her back.
Yeah, that makes sense. So Leonida closed by saying that yes, her client had come up with a fraudulent scheme and carried out said scheme with his friend, but that the scheme never included murder and essentially downplayed that end of things.
She was just like, yeah, he didn't do it.
That's like, her defense is very, it's incredible.
Yeah, it's something. Like, that's really wild.
It's something. That she was basically like, let's not talk about the murder.
She just said, nah. We'll admit to planning that fraud.
She just said he got his steps in that day.
Yeah, he definitely, like, that's it. That's all.
Like, that's a bold strategy. We're like, what about the scratches, Mademoiselle?
What about the DNA? Unfortunately for her and her client, the jury wasn't buying it.
And Scott was found guilty on all charges.
Thank goodness. A month after that, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility for parole.
And Judge Barbara Zuniga, I believe is how you say it.
I'm sorry if I said that wrong. But she told him, quote, you do not deserve to live amongst decent people.
You concealed your identity by wearing a mask and gloves, by wearing a long coat.
You planned this, sir. And this was a very brutal killing.
As she lay dying at your feet, you proceeded to stab her.
That was unnecessary. You added to her pain, Mr. Dysleski.
Or Dileski, excuse me. She then reprimanded him for his behavior during the trial when gruesome photos of the autopsy were showed, saying, quote, I saw you lean forward and your mouth fell open.
You were absolutely fascinated by your handiwork.
Oh, wow. Mm-hmm. Oof. Scott continued his exercise, or excuse me, continued to exercise his right to remain silent and showed no emotion during victim impact statements.
And like her children were reading victim impact statements and he was said to have shown no emotion.
Barely moved. Wow. So in 2009, he appealed the verdict, saying that his rights had been violated when his pretrial motion to change venue and suppress evidence were denied.
Which it's like, suppressing evidence? I'm always like, yeah, of course that was denied.
I know. And also that there was insufficient evidence to support a conviction for first-degree murder and burglary.
You planned it out, though. You came with a knife, though.
You had a list. He felt that the jury had been manipulated by the press, but the appeal was denied on the grounds that his rights had not been violated and that the news coverage featuring him, quote, did not contain material that could be considered inflammatory.
No, it's just what you did. Yeah. He petitioned the court again for a new trial in 2011, claiming that investigators in 2005 were so focused on him that they did not pursue other suspects.
He specifically noted that Pamela's husband, Daniel, was not looked into enough.
Like, dude, your DNA was there. Right. Scott's lawyers said that detectives never looked into Daniel's alibi and overlooked evidence that pointed to Pamela's killer being someone she knew.
No. No. They said that the killer washed dishes, took a shower, and used a key to enter the home.
Nope. Nope. Also, how do you prove that a key was used?
Like, no, the door might have just been open.
Yeah. The petition was denied, and Daniel called the allegations completely made up and said Scott was so overwhelmingly guilty, it's beyond belief.
Truly. Yeah. Truly. And the petition was denied.
Shocking. Scott again appealed in 2016, citing ineffective counsel.
Correct. Correct. I was going to say you might have a point there.
And prosecutorial misconduct. He also claimed that his life sentence was unconstitutional and unjust because he was a minor when it was inflicted.
Uh-oh. The ineffective counsel and prosecutorial.
That's so hard to say. I know it is. Misconduct comments were dismissed.
But. But, as we know. Yep. He was granted a new sentencing.
Yeah. But then in 2018, that bill was passed where it actually is unconstitutional to impose a life sentence on prisoners under 18.
So he would be eligible for a parole hearing in 2030 now.
And while he awaits that hearing, he is in prison known for good behavior and has pursued a college degree and still maintains his innocence.
You're not, though. Interestingly, he's not alone in that.
There are people out there who believe that the evidence against him... Sorry, I just threw up.
There are people out there, though, that believe the evidence against him is insufficient.
And that Daniel, Pamela's husband, wasn't looked into enough as a suspect.
No. Scott's supporters claim that his original public defender was inexperienced, which I say it sounds like it, and stood no chance going up against a, quote, aggressive, experienced prosecutor with virtually unlimited resources in a case that received prejudicial coverage.
And they believe that he should be granted a new trial.
I can't get past the DNA. I can't get past the DNA either.
And the only thing I will say that I also can't get past is the other DNA that's not his.
But you were there if your DNA is there.
Yeah, like if your DNA was under her toenail, I don't know how we get past this.
I don't know if those people just think that's like made up.
Like, some kind of cover-up or something.
And, like, DNA on a coffee cup, DNA on, like, in the house.
Yeah. On a water bottle. So, like, how are you... Right.
How do you get past that? I don't understand that part.
I don't think so. Like, I don't get that at all.
I can buy that maybe there was other people involved or at least one other person involved, but he was there, it would seem.
I would think. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel Horowitz wasn't ever able to move into the house that he was building with his wife and ended up selling the land and the home partially finished.
Never even got to really finish it. Oh, my God.
Breaks my heart. He did remarry in 2007 and had two children with his new wife and actually still works as a defense attorney and a legal commentator, telling the press in 2011, quote, there's a thrill in doing your job in front of a bunch of reporters who will tear you to pieces if you screw up.
Whoa. So he's just like, hmm. He's living.
He's living. And Pamela Vitale is remembered by her parents, her sister, and her children, and her husband, obviously, as an amazing woman who they will miss forever.
And her obituary reads, quote, her loyalty, integrity, and strength of character inspired us.
Her love and tenderness touched our souls.
We will miss her every day of our lives.
Oh. And she had such a beautiful smile, too.
She did. She just seemed so fucking cool.
She really did. She was a badass. She was such a badass.
Like, she's inspirational. Truly. Like, lived in London, was a flight attendant, was a, like, film producer.
Oh, yeah. Whatever she wanted to do, she did.
Yeah. Like, worked in Silicon Valley. It's like, what couldn't she do?
And their marriage seemed so beautiful. And they were building the house that they wanted to spend the rest of their lives in.
Yeah. They just seemed in love and just... They did.
That's heartbreaking. Yeah. So I'd be interested to hear what you guys think.
Yeah. Do you think Scott is innocent? Because there are some people that do believe that.
Yeah. I'm interested to hear that because I don't understand it.
Yeah. But maybe I'm missing something here.
Maybe I'm missing something too. I don't know.
I was really trying to find anything that would make me feel... That would make you like question at all.
Yeah. yeah i don't know the dna for me it's the dna for me it always comes into the dna it does with that being said we hope you keep listening we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that your dna ends up somewhere where you say you haven't been yeah don't do that If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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