Episode 400: The Murder of Molly McLaren | Morbid

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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.

She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.

And let me tell you, it did. I've been listening to it while I walk, and I am absolutely loving it.

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Visit audible.com slash morbid. On November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students were murdered.

Today, finally, the true story. Based on over 300 interviews, in their own words, family members talk about their heartbreak and grief.

Students and townspeople describe that terrifying night.

Police detail the dramatic investigation and arrest of Brian Koberger.

You've never read a true crime like James Patterson and Vicki Ward's The Idaho Four.

The true story, it's finally here. Hey, you weirdos!

I am Ash. And I am Alayna. And this is Morbid.

It sure is! Yippee-ki-yay! Hey! Ooh! 🎵 Ooh.

You just kept going with it. I know. I couldn't stop.

Can't stop, won't stop, you know. Rocking to the rhythm.

Exactly. Precisely. It's a holiday week, so we're a little wily.

A little wily in here. Yeah. Coyote? No.

Never. Just wily. Just straight up wily.

Straight up. Yeah, that's us. Yeah, it's a holiday week.

How's everybody doing? Are you excited to be eating turkey or not eating turkey?

Whatever your persuasion is. Yeah, she gave up being meatless.

She's eating turkey. I hate to break it to my past fellow vegetarians.

By she, she means Ashton, not me. No, yeah, whenever she says she, she's referring to herself.

Yeah, just in case. Yeah, I'm losing my mind.

Yeah, Ashton's back on the train. Yeah.

Actually, there's literally loaded tots in front of me and I'm alive.

Yeah. I'm alive. I'm alive. I just, you know, I felt like I like wasn't eating really well when I was vegetarian.

So. And it's a personal choice. Exactly.

Everybody can make their own choice. And your turkey is just so good.

I just like, you know. I love that my turkey was like part of making you come back.

It was because I started last week. I like slowly implemented meat back into my life.

And then I looked at Drew and I said, oh, and he said, what?

And I said, I can eat Elena's turkey. Hell yeah.

Which, oh, I saw a good TikTok about, it was, oh, it's Alex from, she's like that famous chef.

I cannot think of her last name right now, but I saw a TikTok I want to show you.

I know you do. And she covers a cheesecloth in butter.

You saw that? It's a very child thing. I didn't see it, but I've seen it.

Like, that's a recipe that I've had written down before.

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Like, hey, guys.

Cheesecloth. Just wanted to tell you guys that.

Do it. Butter. Yeah. thanksgiving yeah you know i have to i'm so sorry i've been so remiss i think i mentioned a sage pumpkin pasta recipe and then i just didn't post it and like an asshole i am a true asshole like i'm you i'm in my villain era with this one because i need to post it i will post it we will have it posted to the morbid account yeah um asap so you guys can decide if you want to use it or not yeah i'll do we'll do it like after we record this so that it's before thanksgiving Putting it in our noggins right now.

Putting it in there. And before we start, there is some really, really horrifying and ongoing true crime news that has been going on this past week or so.

On November 13th, four college students were found brutally murdered. in their off-campus apartment in Moscow, Idaho.

Terrible. This story, I caught it on the news.

I didn't even see it until I think like yesterday or the day before.

I don't remember when. But I was downstairs getting my coffee and I just caught it on the news.

I was like, what? Yeah. It's just so brutal.

I saw it on TikTok of all places for the first time and I was like, what is going on.

Four students were absolutely massacred in their home while their roommates were home.

The four students were Kaylee Goncalves, Ethan Chapin, Zaina Kernodle, and Madison Mogan.

And they were on the second and third floor of this house that they were all sharing, it sounds like.

There was two other roommates. I know Ethan wasn't a part of that house.

He was just dating Zaina. Yeah. So he was there to sleep over that night.

He was just sleeping over and it was so terrible.

My heart goes out to all of these families.

It was parents weekend, the weekend before.

And I saw an interview with his two parents and he was a triplet.

And all three kids went to that school and they were just there for parents weekend.

And the mom said that when they were driving away, she looked at her husband and said like, we did it.

Like we raised three great people and now they're out in the world.

That rips my heart open. It gives me chills and just makes me want to just sob.

That's the thing. Like, you send your kids out into the world.

Yeah. And, like... And you did everything you possibly could.

You did everything right. You did everything you could.

And this is what happens. Some piece of shit breaks into their house.

Like, who did this? That's the thing. Like, they have cleared... I mean, there's...

CCTV footage, like security camera footage of Kaylee and Morgan.

They're at a food truck, like after they were out for the night.

They cleared the food truck guy. They cleared their driver.

I don't know if he's been fully cleared, but they have been speaking to, and this man has been being cooperative, the guy that's seen in the footage kind of like going after them after they leave.

Oh, okay. I didn't even know that. I think I know that girl.

And the most recent thing that I saw was that the police have been in contact and that he's cooperative.

I'm not sure if that particular person has been cleared yet.

It just seems like this is a mystery. It's true.

I mean, and this isn't like somebody breaks in and like assaults someone.

This is a brutal and what seems like methodical murder.

It doesn't look like there was any robbery involved here.

No forced entry. It was... The intent was murder and it was stabbing.

I mean, veteran police officers said it was one of the worst scenes they've ever seen.

It reminds me of the Gainesville case that happened in the 90s, the Gainesville Ripper.

Or just these cases like, you know, Villisca and these other cases where somebody comes in and just...

How do they do it while everyone's sleeping?

I don't understand it. So scary. There's two other roommates in the house.

They've been talked to. They've been cleared to, I believe.

And the 911 call came from one of their phones.

They haven't said who, and they haven't said whether it was one of them who called.

But 911 wasn't called until noon the next day.

Right. That can be, to me, that's not super shocking because they're college kids.

They got in very late that night, all of them, including the roommates.

Exactly. Yeah, the roommates got home at 1, I believe, and then the four victims arrived back home around 1.45.

Yeah, and I think they had been, like, on a trip or something.

They had been, like, doing something that they would probably come in and just crash in bed.

Yeah, yeah. And it makes sense that college kids wouldn't be awake until, you know, 11 the next morning or something like that.

So that's not, like, super shocking to me, but you're just wondering, like...

What the hell happened here? Yeah. And it's just, it's strange.

There's no leads. That like nothing was heard.

But the only thing I can think is that whoever did this knew what they were doing.

Methodical. And silenced everybody as soon as possible.

It also makes you think they were found on two different floors.

Floors. And the fact that these other two roommates weren't touched, you had to know this house it feels like and know where you were going.

Yeah. Intentionally almost. Yeah. Well, one of the victim sisters, Kaylee's sister, said that this was like a bit of a party house and that people did have, there was a code on the front door, but a lot of people had that code.

Because again, like everyone remember when you're in college.

Oh my God. When you're that age, the world is your fucking oyster.

Yeah. Like you're not thinking people you're going to school with or people you're friends with are going to do something with that code that you give them.

They're your friends. No. And that's the thing.

It's like, it's not like they were giving this code to, like, randos.

No. They were just giving it out to their friends, which everybody does.

I mean, I have friends that have my security code.

Yeah, and it's like, you don't know. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to change that.

You don't know who those friends have given that code to without thinking.

Right. You know, like, hey, you need to get back in and use this code.

Exactly. Exactly. No one thinks of that.

Or even like the roommates might have had friends that these other people weren't friends with.

You know, it goes on and on. The whole thing is just really, really, really sad, really horrifying for this community.

Yeah. Because the police also came out and did the thing that I hate when they do.

I know. Which is they immediately come out and say that there's no threat to the community and this was targeted.

And then they started walking that back and saying, actually, we don't know.

And maybe you guys should lock your doors.

And it's like, I know you don't want to panic everybody, but it's not a bad thing to immediately come out and go, just stay vigilant.

Yeah. We don't know. Lock your doors. We don't know who did this.

There are businesses closing early in that area now.

Yeah, it's like town that dreaded sundown.

It really is. And then you saw... It's not necessarily a related incident.

But they're not sure if it is. But they're not sure.

Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Trigger warning, it does involve very, very vicious animal cruelty.

Yeah, I'm not going to go into super detail or anything because I just read a quick article about this.

But it is very interesting that it's in the same area and it's very brutal.

Only a few miles, right? Only three miles away from this house, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, a dog, a 12-year-old Australian shepherd named Buddy.

He's so cute. Right? His owners let him out like they did all the time, and someone grabbed him.

And again, trigger warning, this is really graphic, so I'm going to give you a second.

They took this dog, and it is what is described as filleted and skinned him.

And they said it was like somebody was repairing a deer carcass.

And they said it seemed like somebody was waiting for that dog to be let out.

And that's like... Who does that? And if these two incidents are not related, what the fuck?

Then what the fuck is happening there? Seriously.

That's the thing, because these are very brutal, very weird incidences within a three-mile radius within a couple weeks.

Very, very strange. And to me, that's pretty... Could that be an escalation thing where he tried it out on a dog?

I don't know. And then he went for it with his intended plan?

Like, who knows? It's just, I'm... I really hope they're able to gather some stuff.

I know they went through a ton of dumpsters around.

They found nothing. The murder weapon has not been found.

I really hope they're able to find something because these families, I can't even describe how I feel for these families.

I can't even begin to describe it. You just send your kids off to school.

And to not have answers and to have like, oh, I just can't even think about it.

It's awful. And I'm so sorry to them. And guys, if you happen to know anything, if you're in the area, if you saw anything.

If you've got security cameras and you live in that area, you've got to go through your footage.

Because somebody saw something that was off that night.

Somebody had to have seen something off that night.

Yeah. And we'll make sure. We'll check out some videos. some places where you can send tips and stuff if you have them.

We'll put them in the show notes just so you can grab that really quick.

And we're going to be following this case, so any updates we'll try to get to you.

Yeah, this one just, like, really stuck out to me.

I know we haven't really been, like, touching upon a ton of things.

Current events. Current events before we start our episodes.

We've just kind of, like, strayed away because it's, like, really heavy.

Yeah, but this we had to. But this one we just had to grab this one because it's really shocking.

And the fact that they've gotten nothing.

To go on is really freaking me out, and I'm hoping that that can change.

Yeah, seriously. Our hearts go out to these families.

Yeah, for real. Big time. There really is no good transition into the case this week.

There never is. But I am going to be talking about a very, very devastating case.

This is a rough one. It does involve domestic violence and stalking, so if that's something you've been through or something you don't want to listen to, totally understand that.

And I'll see you on Wednesday. Yeah. And the next episode is kind of fun.

Okay. Yeah. Cool. It's fun spooky. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So yeah, let's get into this. We're going to be talking about a young woman named Molly McLaren today.

I have to say, reading through this case, I just felt this weird connection to Molly.

Really? Yeah. She just seemed like somebody that I would have been friends with.

And we were about the same age and we're both Gemini.

There you go. It was just... I definitely felt a connection to this case.

So let's talk about Molly. Molly McLaren was born on May 26, 1994.

She was her parents' only daughter and was one of two children.

Her parents dug in Joanne McLaren described Molly as being kind-hearted, bubbly, and an upbeat person inside and out. her friends all agreed they said she was charming she was lively she was enthusiastic and as a fellow gemini i can see why her friends felt that way about molly of course we are pretty bright and enthusiastic that's very true but seriously like i was just saying even seeing a picture of her you can tell the kind of person that she was she just has like kind eyes a kind smile she just looks approachable and like someone you'd want to be friends she does Now, throughout her teens and in high school, Molly had struggled with her mental health and specifically was really having a tough time with an eating disorder.

But by the time she was ready to head off to the University of Kent to study health and fitness, she had taken control and she had made strides as far as her eating disorder was concerned.

She... took control. She no longer was held back by the confines of her eating disorder.

And instead, she wanted not only to take control back, but to help others who might be struggling.

So to do this, she started a fitness and inspiration blog where she would share her workouts and different motivational posts, reminding people to look for the good in their days and encouraging them to lead healthy and active lifestyles and just like care about themselves.

That's awesome. The key theme of all of her posts was really self-love, acceptance, and positivity.

That's amazing. This girl was an absolute light in her community.

We need more people like that. I agree. So when she enrolled in Kent University, just about seven miles away from her hometown of Cobham, I hope I'm saying that right.

I did listen to the pronunciation. So I hope I'm saying it right.

But that's in the UK. So when she was headed out to Kent University, she was 21 years old and she was really, really excited to be heading off to university.

I love how they say university instead of college.

It just sounds way more fun. Yeah. Now, on one of her first days of classes, she actually made friends with a girl named Jennifer Hammer, and the two of them hit it off instantly.

And eventually, they would form their own circle of close girlfriends, including friend Amelia Davies.

All of them were studying the same thing.

They loved going to the gym with one another.

They just had like this... All of them had this common interest and they all just seemed like such a close-knit group of girls.

And it's hard to find people like that. Yeah, especially like... That just like get you or into the same things as you.

Especially at that age, I would say, you know.

Amelia later said that it didn't matter what they were doing together.

She knew that if she was with Molly and their girlfriends, she would be having a laugh.

She also said that Molly was somebody who would overcome any barrier that was put in front of her.

Yeah. And she and most of Molly's other friends knew what she'd gone through in the past regarding her mental health struggles and the eating disorder.

And they were just in awe of how she got through it and came out on the other side and still remained to be one of the most positive people they'd ever met.

Yeah. Like all these girls just seem like sweethearts.

And I really loved hearing about their friend group while I was reading about this case.

Oh, you just want to like hug them. I mean, that's exactly how I felt because I watched so many different interviews with her friends and her parents, and I just wanted to hug everybody.

But unfortunately, of course, somebody who was not quite the bright light that Molly was would soon come into her life.

To Molly, it seemed like everything was going really well.

She had this awesome group of friends. She was loving school.

She was doing super great in all of her classes, just excelling to the highest.

Killing it. So why would she not want to meet somebody, like, romantically?

Of course. And she could share all of that with and just make things that much better, you know?

Yeah. So when she matched with 24-year-old Joshua Stimson on Tinder on July 31st, 2016, he really seemed like a great fit into her life.

He lived in nearby Woodham with his father, and he too had gone through some similar struggles regarding mental health in the past.

Through messages, he explained that his parents had divorced when he was still pretty young, his dad had been awarded full custody of him, and his mom wasn't really part of the picture.

And throughout his life, he knew what dealing with anxiety felt like.

He had suffered from anxiety and depression before.

And kind of could relate to Molly on those struggles.

He also told Molly later that he suffered from bipolar disorder.

But this is actually not true. He was never formally diagnosed with bipolar.

Oh, okay. And the more I tell you about this guy, I think you will also see that this was a bit of a manipulation tool.

Yeah, that makes sense. Like I think he knew what he was doing.

And it was also not the first lie he would tell Molly.

Well, it was the first lie, excuse me. It was not the last lie he would tell Molly.

Oh, there you go. But all of that was hiding beneath the surface throughout the next couple of months as they just chatted with each other.

Molly was a smart girl, and from the sounds of it, she was also very busy between school and her dedication to fitness and her blog.

So it actually took her and Josh a few months before they ended up meeting in person, which I kind of think is great.

I think you should chat for a little while first.

Oh, yeah. You know, just really be sure before you meet someone in person.

Really know. Yeah, I believe they met in person in either October or November.

So they'd been chatting a good while. And throughout chatting, they learned that they had a lot in common with what I said earlier, like the struggles that they'd gone through.

But he also was very into fitness. He liked to go to the gym and maintain... a seemingly healthy lifestyle.

It was not healthy at all. But when they did meet in person, they really hit it off.

And over a few more meetings, they became official, boyfriend and girlfriend.

This was Molly's first real serious relationship.

And she kind of felt like her and Josh had been placed in each other's lives to lift each other up and for them to support each other if it was necessary.

And Josh told her that she was also his first girlfriend, but that was not necessarily true.

Uh-oh. Yeah. Josh had dated in the past, and he actually didn't have great history with women at all.

Oh, great. And we are going to get into some serious stalking incidences here.

Oh, no. Incidences? How do you? Incidences?

What's the plural of incidents? Incidences.

Okay, cool. Yeah. So one woman that he had gone out with in the past had felt seriously threatened by him after just one or two dates.

She told him after meeting in person that she just didn't feel a connection and she didn't know if this was really going to go anywhere.

She was like, I think we're better. Like, I'm happy to have met you, but I think there are other people out there for us.

Yeah. You know, that thing that you're completely allowed to do as a human being.

That's what I wrote right here in capital letters.

I said, ladies and gents, you have every right in the world to tell somebody that.

There you go. And in fact, I would argue that that's the kinder thing to do in this situation versus like this new thing that happens, ghosting.

Yeah, don't go. I mean, do what you want to do.

Like, I'm not here to tell you how to live your life.

Yeah, don't ghost. But it's nice and it's respectful as a fellow human being to just be like, hey, you know what?

I know it's hard. Yeah. It's not easy. No one wants to break up with someone.

No one wants to be like, hey, this isn't really the thing.

Yeah. But that's a great way to do it. Just, you know what?

It's just not there. I wish you well. Glad to have met you.

The end. I hope everything works out for you.

Yeah, I think most people would appreciate that.

I know I would appreciate that. And actually, I've had instances with dating in the past where that has been the case, and I've appreciated that.

Yeah, of course. And vice versa, you know?

Yeah. But I think that's because I'm a level-headed person, and I think luckily the people I was dealing with were level-headed.

Yeah. Josh wasn't. No. And he did not take this well.

Which is, this is just scary, too, because this is one of those instances where you look at him and you go, you would never know.

Oh, absolutely not. Like, these girls did not have any kind of indication.

He doesn't look like he's someone who's going to flip.

No, he looks like somebody that I also would have swiped right on.

Exactly. So it's like, you just want to point that out.

Like, there was literally, like, physically, it was one of those situations where, like, the monster was inside and you had no idea.

He's a good-looking kid, you know? It's really scary.

And that's the thing that I think, like you were just saying, people don't necessarily realize that.

Yeah. Yeah, you can be nine out of ten times people that do these terrible, terrible things.

That's why the statistic is that you walk past how many murders in your lifetime?

You just don't know. They blend in. They look like you and I. Exactly.

Exactly. So yes, Josh looked like you and I, but was not like you and I. He did not take this well.

He found out that this particular woman was going on vacation soon, and once she landed in her destination, her phone started blowing up with text messages and calls from Josh.

He told her he was going to fly down to where she was and drown her.

What the fuck? He then sent her a photo of her backyard, even though she had never told him where she lived.

This is terrifying already. Never told him where she lived, but he figured it out.

And he told her that there was going to be a surprise waiting for her when she got home.

Did she call the police? I'm not sure. Well, yeah, she does end up calling the police.

I don't know if she did while she was away, but it does happen.

So she gets home and she sees that all of her tires have been slashed.

Slashed all of her tires after going on one or two dates.

Absolutely unhinged. She, yes, immediately reported the incident to the police.

I wrote this a little while ago. But wasn't told, but was told that there wasn't enough to consider this a crime.

Even the messages? No. He literally said, I want to come there and drown you.

Yeah. Nope, not enough to consider it a crime.

Police need to get it fucking together when it comes to this shit.

It's so true. I don't know how they haven't learned.

I really don't know. Unfortunately, it takes things like this for them to learn.

And it's like, that's not how it's supposed to go.

No. You're not supposed to have... You don't sacrifice lives to learn a lesson.

No, and multiple... That's not how it's supposed to go.

Multiple women's safety and... Yeah. Yeah, it's just ridiculous.

So that wasn't the end of it. She then started noticing him everywhere she went, especially on nights out because these kids are like 20, 21, 22.

Yeah. Any nightclub she was going to, she would see Josh lurking in the corner and she had no idea how he knew all of her whereabouts.

What the fuck? And then she started receiving pictures of herself that Josh had taken.

He would send them to her, text them to her, criticizing her on her appearance and calling her derogatory names.

What? Yep. So in total, she reported his behavior to the Staffordshire police on three separate occasions.

Come on. And was told each time that there wasn't enough evidence to report or log this as a crime.

Instead, one of the officers there simply sent him a text message telling him to cut it out.

Cut it out. Cut it out. Don't keep doing that.

Stop doing that. XOXO, police officer, whoever.

Are you fucking kidding me? You can't even get on the phone.

You don't even pick up the phone and call him.

You just send him a quick text. You don't even show up.

You show up at his door. Yeah, seriously.

Give a little bit of a show of intimidation here.

Yeah. Wow. I just shot him a quick text.

This is why these things keep happening.

That's exactly why. Because they're ignored.

And because this was ignored, another woman came forward later with similar accounts and said that on one of her first dates with Josh after they'd matched on Tinder, she was telling him about an upcoming trip that she was going on for a bachelorette party.

And all of a sudden, he got really serious and asked her if she was going to be talking to guys while she was there.

And she was like, dude, this is literally our first date.

What the fuck? What the fuck? So she's on the date and she is like, this is really fucking weird that this is happening.

But like, I'm just going to laugh this off for the sake of everyone involved.

But then days later, she was celebrating her grandmother's birthday and her phone started blowing up.

And it was Josh. And he didn't believe that she was at her grandmother's house and was calling repeatedly and texting her repeatedly, calling her all kinds of names, telling her that she needed to tell him where she really was.

What? Losing it on this poor girl. Are you kidding me?

Losing it on her. So she was like, you need to stop contacting me.

Like, you're done. Told him not to contact her again.

Days later, he showed up at her house at two in the morning telling her he was in the area and needed a place to charge his phone.

Oh, fuck that. She told him that she would call the police if he ever showed up at her home again and to get the fuck out of there.

Good. And after she threatened that, he started following her, trying to assert his dominance because by this point, since he had simply received a text message, and God only knows how many other girls he'd done this to.

These are just the girls that came forward.

He's not receiving any kind of punishment, no consequence whatsoever.

So he thinks he's untouchable. Of course.

So just like with the previous women, he would follow her to different nightclubs, bars, restaurants.

And ultimately, the two of them got in an altercation where he spat a drink in her face at a nightclub he had followed her to.

Ew, what a fucking pig. He's a pig. Truly.

He was taken out by security that night and would meet Molly just weeks later.

And what kills me is because he was getting zero consequences to any of this, there was no trail of it.

No. Which means Molly had no way of knowing what kind of fucking dangerous motherfucker this guy was.

That's the problem. And it's perfect that you said that right when you did because I was thinking there should be some kind of, and I don't know if there is because I'm not on them anymore, but I hope that there's some kind of thing on dating apps where you can report a particular profile.

You should be able to report and be like, dude, he stalked me.

Yeah. After our first date. Like zero out of 10 recommend.

Exactly. Because it's like girls need to be helping, you know, ladies helping ladies, especially.

It's like, be like, watch out for this guy.

Right. That's the thing. Now, Joshua not only had a history of stalking women, but he was partially truthful when he told Molly that he did have a past regarding his mental health struggles.

While, like I said, he'd never been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, he had been in and out of outpatient programs for treatment since he was 12 years old.

And like I said, most of his struggles came from his parents' divorce and the abandonment issues created by his mother's absence.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Now, in 2017, back to when they're together, after a few months of officially dating Joshua, Molly wanted to start introducing her to some of her friends.

Immediately, her friends had his number.

They were just put off by him. He didn't appear to want to get to know any of them and barely spoke to any of them at all.

And if Molly was laughing or enjoying her time while they were out, he would try to take her away from the group or tell her that he felt uncomfortable with certain friends of hers.

Like he was being left out or something.

And see, here comes the isolation. Her friend Amelia remembered a time that they were all hanging out together.

And then later on, Molly told her that Josh had messaged her after they all hung out and was basically trying to insinuate that Amelia wasn't a good friend.

What the fuck? And like trying to get in between them.

But it was like there was no basis for this.

No. Molly was also put off by this. But just like the rest of us, she wanted her friends and her significant other to try and get along.

Yeah, of course. So she just tried to remain positive.

Oh, I've been there before. Oh, same. I think a lot of people know this feeling.

Oh, yeah. But another concerning thing to Molly's friends was that Josh didn't seem to have his own friends.

He never talked about anyone he was friends with.

He never brought anybody along to their hangouts.

He was just constantly tagging along to things or just showing up to events that he hadn't even been invited to.

He just wouldn't take no for an answer. Yeah.

Super weird. So about four months into their relationship, Molly was becoming irritated by Josh's behavior and she was really starting to feel suffocated.

Whenever she would try to get space from him, he'd make her feel guilty about it.

For example, there were times that she would try to tell him like, oh, I can't hang out on this day because I really have to study.

Like I got a cram for this exam and I'm going to be studying all day.

Yeah. And he would just show up to her house anyway.

Ew. But then make her feel bad for not paying attention to him.

Oh, I hate this guy. He texted her once saying, and this is a direct quote, like this is an actual text he sent her.

It's unfair me wasting hours of my weekend sat on your bed in silence.

Like, cool, you should get a hobby because she told you she was studying and never invited you over in the first place.

It's like, get some friends, my dude. Get some friends or a hobby.

Get a job. Read a book. Do anything. I don't know.

Do literally anything else. Like, why are you so obsessed with me?

Ew. So when Molly started to feel this pressure, she just tried to express it to Joshua in a healthy manner, which is something you should be able to do in your relationship.

She wasn't trying to break up with him at that moment.

She was flat out telling him, we just can't be together 24-7.

I'm really starting to feel a lot of pressure here.

Yeah. Now, I'm sure you were shocked to hear that he didn't take this very normal feeling of hers well.

No. He told her that she was taking his kindness for granted and throwing it back in his face.

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Their relationship didn't end then because, of course, he would always cool down and love bomb Molly.

But over time, things continued to get more and more suffocating.

And at one point in their relationship, Josh actually quit his job working at a warehouse so that he could have more time to spend with Molly.

I'm, this is like really giving me anxiety.

And that's the thing, because even though she made it clear to him that more time together was actually the opposite of what she wanted, he made it seem like he was doing her a favor and actually even used her past struggles against her to make it seem like she needed his 24-7 attention and quote-unquote support.

Yeah. Like, no, I don't need you. She got through all of the things she got through with her friends and family that already existed and her own gumption.

Exactly. You weren't around. She doesn't need you.

You did. By no means does she need you. No, you're lucky to be a part of her life, but she does not need you.

She chose to have you a part of her life.

And now she's choosing not to. Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. Luckily, Molly started seeing through his act and saw that things were not improving and that she wasn't being heard in this relationship.

Josh continued to be overbearing, kept showing up unannounced at her house, kept showing up to her friends' gatherings that she didn't even, at some time, she was like, I don't even know how he knew I was at this thing.

That's what's scary. Like, I didn't even tell him I was at this.

Yeah. And finally, she decided enough was enough.

After several days in a row of Josh showing up to her house unannounced, she decided to end things with him.

But like we see in pretty much every case where somebody tries to leave and does so rationally, tries to do it rationally, he would not take no for an answer.

He would not let her walk away from him.

The days following had to have been among the most stressful and emotional days of Molly's life.

And her close friend Amy would later point out that this young woman had overcome the controlling confines of an eating disorder.

Yeah. Only to end up with an even more controlling and confining human being.

Yeah. Like, horrible. Absolutely horrible.

After the breakup, Josh tried absolutely everything he could to get Molly back.

He was texting her every day, telling her he would do anything.

He would beg for her every single day if he had to.

Then he would switch and go into blame mode and tell her that this was her fault.

Oh, yeah. most of the issues in their relationship came down to her anxiety and her issues he even told her that she should make a doctor's appointment to try to figure things out wow like true fucking asshole okay but then like the cycle goes the love bombing the promises of him being better they started to seem to be true he stopped messaging every single day he tried to show molly that he was making different improvements in his life like getting a new job He started working at a window company.

He was working as an operations assistant.

And he's saying all these things like, look, I'm doing better.

I'm doing what you wanted me to do. But in all reality, even his co-workers at this new job could immediately see that there were two sides to Joshua.

They said that there was one side of him that was actually likable, cheerful, even kind.

But then the other version of him, direct quote, was dark, irrational, and withdrawn.

That's scary. And irrational really says it all for me.

A few weeks after the initial breakup, Molly was starting to miss Joshua and also starting to feel like maybe she'd been too harsh with him.

This happens. Like, I've been in this experience before.

I think you've probably been in this experience before.

We've been there. She told her friends that she was wanting to be cautious, of course, but it did seem like he was trying to better himself with the new job and all.

And, like, she was kind of thinking about taking him back.

Now, Molly's friends were not so sure that this was the best idea.

And they told Molly the truth. They said, we're concerned.

We really don't think you should take him back, but we want you to be happy.

And if that's what you want to do, then that's what you should do.

Yeah, we're going to try to support you.

Which those are friends right there. Yeah, they're just trying.

We're going to be honest. But at the end of the day, you being happy is what counts for us.

In fact, I think that's what my friend Linz, I think she said it the other day when she was here because we happened to mention something about my ex who was the worst.

Yeah. And she was like, oh, he was a fucking asshole.

Yeah. But I was like, I'm your best friend.

I'm going to be here for you. I'm going to do what I can.

Like, that's what best friends do. Yeah, that's friendship.

They look out, but they will be there for you.

They be supportive and they don't judge.

Yeah. But ultimately, Molly would decide to take Josh back.

Things didn't really get much better. Of course, I'm sure they were in the beginning.

He did the whole love-bombing thing and made it seem like this was going to be a completely different relationship.

That's what they do. But then, really almost immediately, he started showing up to nights out with her friends again, inviting himself when she told him about plans, even when she hadn't invited him.

Right. Her friend Amy was stressed about the fact that Josh also seemed to be trying to isolate Molly from her friends.

He was trying to start more within the friend group, trying to say, like, you hang out with them too much.

Like, we're a couple. You should hang out with me.

Even Molly's family was concerned and saw through his act.

He made it obvious how possessive he was of her.

She'd actually invited him to come along and join her family to travel for a family member's birthday celebration.

She thought it was going to be a lot of fun.

She wanted Josh to meet some more of her extended family.

She's like, there's going to be dancing.

We're going to have to get a hotel. We'll spend a night or two away.

It'll just be like a good reset for us, you know?

Yeah. But at the actual celebration, Molly's family got Joshua's number as they watched him stare at her.

It was literally described with daggers.

Dancing with her cousins. Oh, my God. With her cousins.

Oh, my God. That's her family. It was like he was jealous of them and angry that she wasn't with him every single second.

Her cousins. Her literal cousins. Molly's mother, Joanne, took close notice of this, and she knew that weekend would probably not end well for her daughter, and she was keeping close tabs on this situation.

And she was right. That night, Molly texted her mom, Joanne, from her and Josh's hotel room, asking her to please come and help because Josh was flipping out on her, screaming at her, losing his shit.

This is so scary. It's terrifying. And it must have been not only terrifying for Molly, I can't even imagine how she felt, but her mother.

Oh, yeah. She's a grown-up. She can't make her walk away from this guy.

You're very helpless in that. But she wants the best for her daughter, and she also doesn't want to lose her daughter, so she's got to really toe the line here.

There's a fine line you have to walk. Absolutely.

So Joanne came down to the room to try to see if she could be of assistance, and she could hear Josh yelling from the hallway.

She said when she got inside, he actually went over to her and tried to turn things around on Molly. saying that she was the one who got out of control and she always got this way when they fought.

And to try to support his claims to Molly's own mother, he tried showing her videos he'd taken in the past while he and Molly were arguing.

He'd secretly filmed her on multiple occasions during their arguments.

And was now showing them to her mom being like, look, this is how she is when we argue.

She's out of control. You hear that it's me, but look at this.

And that's someone who is gathering things because they are planning to do something terrible and need to show evidence to the contrary.

Abso-fucking-lutely. It's like, dude, you look just as bad in those.

Yeah. Are you kidding me? You're arguing.

When you are arguing with your significant other, you are among your worst behavior.

And if the other person is filming you, like, something's wrong here.

Yeah. And secretly filming. Yeah. And you must know that you're about to get into an argument because you set your camera up.

You set your camera up. Yeah. Like, did you bait her?

I can't imagine. Like, Drew and I fight, of course.

We don't, like, scream at each other or anything like that.

But I can't imagine... Setting up my phone during our art.

Like, my brain would never go there. Well, it's just like, if I, like, set up a phone and then got into it, like, John would be like, what exactly?

Like, is this on TikTok? What is happening?

Yeah. Like, why did you set up your phone?

Exactly. Like, what is going on? It's ridiculous.

So it's like, did he bait her into those things just to have that on film?

I bet. I bet. I bet he did. Because from the sounds of it, Molly was not a confrontational person.

Yeah. At all. She had this great friend group.

Her whole entire fitness blog and lifestyle was about being positive.

Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. No, it really doesn't.

And Molly sadly felt the same way, like things were only getting worse.

But at the same time, she wasn't completely ready to call it quits for good, and she wanted to try to give Josh one last chance at making things right.

And of course, to us, you're like, no, what are you doing?

But when you're in it, it's different. You have blinders on.

You have earmuffs on. When you're in it, you're in like a womb of just like, but you know those times that he's so nice.

Yeah. Like those are the times that stick out to you because those are the ones you hang on to for survival.

So you're always sitting there with those, but he's so nice when he does this.

Or like, you don't understand him how I understand him.

And he's different when you're not here.

Yeah. Yeah. And they are different. They are different when your friends aren't around.

I've been in relationships like that. I've never been in an abusive relationship.

But I've been in relationships where somebody has shown a different side of themselves to my friends versus me.

And I've been like, hey, you're acting like a dick in front of my friends.

Exactly. Like, what are you doing? And I'm sure also that this feeling came from a place of being scared to end this relationship.

Absolutely. Because of what had happened before.

But also, like we were just saying, she had genuine feelings for this person.

Mm-hmm. Because although we can see from hindsight at this point that he was an abuser, she'd spent a lot of time with this man and had grown to love him in some capacity.

Absolutely. It's not shocking that she was willing to give him a few chances.

It really isn't. It's unfortunate, but it's by no means abnormal.

And that's the thing. That's the thing that we have to remember when reading these stories, telling these stories, consuming them.

I know we say it all the time, but this can happen to anybody.

Molly was a good person who saw some ounce of good from an evil person that was there to take advantage of her kindness.

Yeah. And, you know, everybody knows that when you try to leave, it's the most dangerous time.

Yeah. So I'm sure that's also in some people's heads.

Like, this is dangerous to try to leave.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So to try to just get away from everything and just work on their relationship, only the two of them, thinking maybe if they spent more time alone together in a beautiful, relaxing place, they might get back on track, Molly decided to book a trip to Spain for a bit of a getaway.

Mm-hmm. And even though her friends and family were really worried about this, they were standing by, ready to offer their support and assistance if and when it became necessary.

And good thing they were because, again, almost immediately upon arrival, Molly started texting them and saying she wasn't having a good time.

Josh wasn't listening to her at all while they were out there.

Ugh. And then at the same time, she was telling them she couldn't talk about it too much because she couldn't be away from him too much because that would just start more and more fights.

And I'm sure he was probably going through her phone at this point.

Oh, I'm sure. Very scary. Oh, that's so scary.

But one instance of her messaging was a text saying, thought this thing with Josh was going to pass, but it's not.

It's the worst thing ever. Help me. Ugh.

And I don't think it was help me like she was frantic.

I think it was just like, oh, God, help me.

So once she did get home, she told her friends and her mom that she was set on ending things for the final time.

She did not have any feelings left for this person.

I don't even know what exactly happened on that trip because only the two of them know.

I bet this was a horrible, horrible trip.

Sounds like it is. She wanted to leave him, but he also made her nervous and she wanted to be careful about how she went about ending things with him.

So she was going to take her time basically in order to make sure that she got out of this safely.

So on June 17th, Molly was out celebrating her 23rd birthday a bit late with friends, and Josh was there.

They had been at each other for the past couple of weeks arguing nonstop, but all Molly wanted to do was have a good time with her friends.

So she invited Josh and said, you know, let's just put everything on the back burner tonight.

I just want to have fun. She also probably realized that if she didn't invite him, he would just show up anyway.

Yeah. So he originally agreed, like, yep, let's put things on the back burner.

We'll focus on your birthday, try to make it a good time.

But of course, he started an argument with her while they were out at her birthday celebration, probably because it was about her and not him.

And it was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Molly told Josh in that moment, we're done.

You need to leave. I can't do this anymore.

Good for her. And luckily she had all of her friends around her.

Yeah. He turned and yelled to all of her friends that she'd just broken up with him.

And I don't know if this was like, I can't believe this was happening or like if he was yelling like it was their fault.

Yeah, like are you happy now? I kind of, I could see it going that way.

And all of them agreed that the look on his face was pure rage.

They said he was very aggressive that night and eventually left.

But of course, the very next day started with the classic, I'll be better, please take me back.

Molly, like I have said multiple times, was a smart girl.

She knew she'd given Joshua plenty of chances to change this behavior.

She knew that this treatment was not what she deserved, and his messages just weren't doing anything for her at this point.

So when he realized that the love bombing wasn't going to be working, he progressed again to the aggression, and Molly ended up having to block him on all social media.

Ugh. And that's when things really escalated.

Oh, boy. Because getting out, as we know, is always the most dangerous time.

And afterwards. When he realized he wasn't going to get through to Molly, he decided that he would just destroy her reputation instead.

Oh, good. Yeah. He knew how hard Molly had worked to focus on her fitness blog, and she'd made this image and had a reputation for being a health-focused person, which she was.

Yeah. So he started posting across all social media platforms, all kinds of content, making it look like she wasn't the person she portrayed online.

He took screenshots of their private conversations where they had been arguing.

He posted those videos of their arguments.

He accused her of doing cocaine in one post, saying, quote, "'You are a cokehead.

Have you been honest that you need to stop sniffing gear, even lying to your own mom?'

And in all of those posts, because he couldn't tag Molly, he was tagging all of her family members that he had connections with on social media.

Holy shit. That's actually how Molly found out that this was happening.

She got a call from one of her cousins. This is why I've turned so hard against social media, this kind of stuff.

When you hear these kind of stories, you're like, they have too many avenues to do too much to people.

And it's like, this kind of shit is so scary.

Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. And it's scary because there are not only so many avenues to destroy somebody's life, but there are so many avenues to stalk people on social media.

To find where she is, to figure out where she is, like...

Like, I'm sure somehow maybe, like, that first girl who said, like, I never told him where I lived.

Yeah. If you have someone on Snapchat, they can see on a map where you are.

Like, I have Snapchat friends that I can see on the other side of the globe.

Oh, my God. And their exact locations. Like, you don't need to see that.

That's absurd. I have all my locations turned off on everything.

So, like, good luck finding me if something ever happens.

Oh, God. Just kidding. So... Even though she had blocked Josh on everything, he started finding new avenues to harass her.

He downloaded WhatsApp, which is a messaging, like, texting service.

I heard of it, but I didn't know what it was.

I think a lot of times people will use it if they're in, like, another country or something like that to text back and forth.

Because it doesn't have the same kind of...

Maybe data rates or something. I was going to say the rates probably.

Yeah, exactly. But he messaged her on there threatening her, terrorizing her.

There was actually one occasion where she was terrified because he knew that her parents were going to be away and she was going to be alone at the house and she thought that he was going to hurt her in some way.

Oh my God. So she couldn't stay at home alone while they were gone.

And on June 22nd, 2017, she and her mother had had enough.

Once everybody had blocked him on Facebook and after he started terrorizing Molly on WhatsApp, she started messaging her friends and family that she was becoming increasingly scared of Josh and what he might do to her.

So that day, they just had enough. They printed out every last example of Josh's posts, and they brought them to the North Kent police station, Molly and her mom.

Good. The police officer who helped them, Officer Philpott, wanted to call Josh and tell him to take the content down.

That was his solution. I am wordless when it comes to how stupid and careless and fucked up this is.

Me too. On the side of the authorities. Oh, and it only gets worse.

Holy shit, guys. Like, what are you doing?

This should be taught as a case study of how not to handle a fucking stalker.

It will be. Thank you. You're welcome. I didn't even know that.

Not a case study, but it should be taught as like a point.

So this officer literally just calls Josh on the phone and puts it on speaker so that Molly and her mom can hear everything.

Molly, who is fucking terrified of this individual.

You're just like, oh, you want to listen in on this phone call?

So throughout their conversation, Josh kept telling the officer that he, quote, hadn't done anything wrong, but if he thought he had, there was still more to come.

He said that multiple times. So are you threatening her?

Yeah. To a police officer? Obviously you are.

Yes. But yeah, let's just ignore that. No.

The conversation continued, and once he got to a point where he felt like he maybe had gotten through to Josh, he hadn't.

He said, we wouldn't want Molly to have to come down to the station again, would we?

And Josh responded, wouldn't we? Come on, guys.

And they were like, come on. Yeah, there's not a lot we can do.

Yeah, there's nothing you can do. Why are you so all powerful?

The conversation terrified Molly and her mom, and her mom was very worried about this.

But the police said they couldn't do anything.

So what were they to do? Wow. Apparently, Josh's behavior wasn't enough harassment to be a criminal offense.

And the thing is, I want to point this out, this would have gone very differently had the Staffordshire police taken that previous woman's report seriously.

Josh would have been in the system. At least had they written a report somewhere, he would have been there.

If they had just written down a sentence about what was going on.

He had terrified that girl to the point of finding out where she lived and sending her a picture of her own home.

Yeah. That should have been logged somewhere.

Are you joking me? Yeah, that's ridiculous.

Now, this just proves his blatant narcissism.

The day after Molly and her mother went to the police, Josh went to the police station to make a report against Molly.

Oh my God, come on. He felt like Molly was damaging his reputation and his career with all of her claims and telling people that he was in trouble with the police.

Wow. Which, like, you're gonna be if you keep fucking doing this shit, or apparently you're not gonna be.

Oh, yeah. Their advice to him was, you know, you gotta cut off all communication with her and you gotta take down your posts.

Yeah. How helpful. Thank you. But I'm sure you're shocked to hear the saga continued.

Just two days after that, two days after Josh went down to the police station on his own, Molly had to contact the police to tell them that Josh was still posting.

Still putting up terrible stuff about her.

They logged the incident but told her there wasn't much more they could do.

Cool. Thanks, guys. Why are you even logging it at this point?

Like, are you joking? Wow. So... Since the police weren't able to do anything, quote unquote, Molly and her mother took to their community themselves.

They printed out photos of Josh and spread them throughout the entire neighborhood, explaining the situation to their neighbors and asking that everybody keep an eye out for him in the neighborhood should he choose to escalate things even further.

That, to me, proves how fucking scared she and her family was.

Absolutely. To have to go around to your neighbors and tell them, like, I was dating this man, this is what happened.

Like, to have to be that raw and real with your neighbors.

Well, that's the other thing. It's like, just to have to admit that, like, that's, it's stuff you don't feel like you want to talk about with everybody.

No. It's like, it sucks. It's like a shitty part of dating.

And it's like, I don't want to have to tell you about this shitty relationship I was in.

No, of course not. And have to tell you, like, Look out for this guy.

Exactly. Like, she has nothing to be embarrassed about, but I could see why that would feel embarrassing, you know?

Because you're just having to talk to your neighbors about stuff that you don't just bring up in casual conversation, you know?

She's, like, 23 years old. Yeah. She's like, hi, I used to, like, babysit your kids, but this is what I'm going through.

Yeah, like, cool. Can you keep an eye out for him, please?

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But what nobody realized was that things were already escalating to a fucked up point.

On June 25th, 2017, two days after his own visit to the police station, Josh went into work but left early that day.

After he left work, he went to two separate hardware stores.

At one of them, he bought a Sabote paring knife, and at the other location, he purchased a pickaxe.

What the fuck? The police called Molly two days after that to tell her that Josh had actually called them and agreed to take down all his nasty posts about her.

He'd come to his senses and realized that he was only damaging his own career by doing this.

That's like chilling, though, because you're like, what's happening?

You're just trying to make it seem to the police like you're a good guy doing the right thing.

To keep them off of you. Now, at this point, you would think that Josh had no way of knowing where Molly was or what she was doing, and he really didn't because she blocked him and her friends had blocked him.

Everybody close to her had blocked him at this point out of safety.

Yeah. But being the possessive and harassing individual that he was, he needed to know where Molly was at all times, even if she wasn't his girlfriend anymore.

Yeah. So at this point, he manipulated another girl that he met on Tinder in the past and convinced this girl, which I'm not going to say much about this.

Convince this girl to friend Molly on social media and report back to him everything Molly was doing and where she was going.

It seems like he did this under the guise for concern out of Molly instead of his dark ass intentions.

But I'm just going to say, if somebody contacts you and asks you to be friends with somebody and report back to them about where they're going, no.

No. Because if this person has blocked this person who's asking you to do this, and all of their family members have...

No. It kind of tells you what's going on here.

Just say no. No. No adult needs your help.

No adult needs your help. No fucking Josh needs your help.

No. No. No. And you don't report on anybody else's actions and whereabouts.

You never do that. No. Never do that. And not a great idea because you're going to get yourself into trouble.

Yeah. You potentially could. But that's all we'll say.

I hope this person did it with pure intentions.

I hope so. That's all I'll say. Mm-hmm. So, on June 28th, 2017, Molly was getting ready for a night out with friends.

They wanted to go to the ship and trades and Chatham, I gotta look that up.

It's Chatham. You looked it up? I did. And Molly posted where she was heading out for the night.

She thought this was safe because she had blocked... him everywhere and probably really didn't think twice about it.

Yeah. I used to do that shit all the time.

Of course. It was supposed to be a celebratory thing.

Molly had actually just enrolled in her first personal training course, which was exciting because this was the field she wanted to go into when she started her career.

And another friend who was there that night had recently gotten a promotion.

So this was supposed to be a happy night to get away from everything she'd gone through with Josh, to focus on girls and friendship and success.

And happy things. And happiness. All the friends are just sitting, eating, drinking, having a good time together.

And all of a sudden, Josh walks into this bar with another girl.

He'd met this girl through Tinder as well.

And once he knew where Molly was headed that night, he messaged this girl that he was messaging with anyways and told her he wanted to take her to ship and trades.

Wow. Yeah. This poor girl probably was like, oh, great.

Like, I'm going on a cool date. Yeah, she's just a pawn.

He wants to bring me to this restaurant he loves, but really he's bringing you there because his ex-girlfriend is there.

That he's been stalking ruthlessly. I fucking hate this guy.

Now, even though they weren't really sure if this was pure coincidence or cool and calculated, Molly and her friends were concerned.

And her friends told her they were sorry that she had to see him on a date with someone else.

Whether or not this was intentional or not, he was on a date.

And they were sorry that she had to see that.

Yeah, those are just good friends being like, that could suck.

This friend group is like everybody deserves this friend group.

Dynamic. I know. She told them, though, she was like, I literally don't care that he's with another girl.

Feelings are gone. She was like, I want him to move on.

I hope that he treats his next girlfriend differently than how he treated me.

Yeah. But I'm not jealous. And that's how I know I don't love him anymore.

Yeah. That's what she said to them. That is a good indicator.

Yeah, it is. And when she went to go back to the bar, some sources say she was asking where she should pay for her parking.

Others said she was grabbing a drink. It doesn't really matter.

She went up to the bar and Josh caught her eye and smiled at her.

And her friend said that when she came back to the table, it was like she'd seen a ghost.

This smile was not a friendly smile. This was like a gotcha smile.

It freaked her out and it made her feel like he wasn't here by coincidence.

She was shaken, but she was still trying to have a good time.

Gross. Gross. Gross. So after he and his date left, all the friends talked about how childish he was acting and how ridiculous this was, but tried to move on from the conversation and make the most of their night.

Molly headed out shortly after. Her friend Amy remembered that she wanted to get home in time to watch Love Island, which is just so relatable.

We love reality TV escapism. She's, like, so wholesome.

She is. Like, if I lived near this girl, I know we would have been friends.

100%. I feel it. But while Molly was on her way home, and excuse me, I didn't mean to say but, while Molly was on her way home, she got a text from her friend Jennifer, the one that she'd met on the first day of school.

And Jennifer said, I hope you're all right.

Just get home safe and be safe. Aw. Like, just looking out for her.

Wow. I really just wanted to highlight, like, how, like, what a great friend group this was.

Yeah. They're really delightful. They are.

Now, Molly didn't realize this, but as she left the bar that night, Josh was following her.

The next morning, she headed to the gym to get a workout in and to make some content for her fitness blog.

It had only been 12 days since she ended things with Josh, and he was still following her, though she didn't realize it, this time to the gym.

There's footage of Molly walking into her gym at about 10 in the morning.

And on this day, the gym was pretty quiet.

And the space that Molly was working out in, she pretty much had almost entirely to herself.

There's security footage that you can watch.

It's very chilling. I remember seeing it on the news, actually.

It's so, not funny, but it's interesting because I don't remember hearing about this case.

I remember this like vividly. You do? Yeah.

See, I didn't at all. And I was looking for something and this just stuck out to me.

But she had the space almost entirely to herself until Josh strolled in and laid out his workout mat beside her.

There's also separate footage of him. It's really strange.

He walks up the stairs and peeks his head into the area that Molly's in, clearly spotting her, then walks down the stairs again, almost like he changed his mind about going in, but then changes it again and goes back up the stairs, all while just, like, drinking a water bottle.

Like, just... To me, that shows so clearly that he had this so planned and that he was second guessing it and having that hesitation moment.

Should I go back down? Then he was like, I'm going in there because he knew once he went in there.

That was it. Exactly. It's chilling to see.

So it's one of the most chilling pieces of footage to see them together in that room and knowing what's going to happen.

Exactly. So Molly had been talking to her friend Amy through text that morning, actually about the night before.

And Amy was trying to cheer her up. She was like, don't worry about this asshole.

He is like insane. Yeah. But when Josh showed up at the gym and sat up right next to Molly, she snapped a picture of him because she was like, what the fuck?

And she texted Amy and her mom saying, WTF, he's just turned up and come right next to me, sending that picture for proof.

Amy told Molly there was absolutely no fucking chance that this was coincidence, what with him showing up the night before too.

And Molly knew that too. But this time, Molly hadn't posted anywhere about where she was going that morning.

So the only real explanation was that he'd followed her.

And when she realized that, Molly decided to confront Josh.

She walked over to him and she was like, why aren't you at work?

And he replied that that was none of her business.

Wow. So she walked away, clearly scared, realizing that she wasn't going to get anywhere with him and move to a different area to do her workout away from him.

Imagine how scary this would feel, too, because he's very clearly escalating this behavior.

Yeah. And you are now trapped in a building with him alone.

Where there's not a lot of other people.

That's the thing. Like quiet. You are alone here.

And all you can. She was probably sitting there running in her head.

Yeah. What are the scenarios of me getting out of here?

Do I run out the door? Right. Like what do I do?

And we know that she was doing that because she was texting her mom and her friend Amy being like, I don't know what to do.

I'm scared. Like what should I do? Yeah.

And he's like a fucking animal. Yeah. He's an animal.

It's ridiculous. But eventually he leaves.

So she probably breathes a sigh of relief, like, okay, just being a fucking weirdo again.

And she sat there and she's done with her workout, but she's like, what do I do right now?

What's my next move? So she's texting Amy and her mom separately for advice.

And they both told her she needed to leave and go straight home.

Do not go anywhere else. Go home. But what nobody realized, and how could they, was that Josh was sitting in his car with the paring knife that he'd bought just days earlier, waiting for Molly to come out.

He was just driving around the parking lot, waiting, waiting, waiting, and looking for her to come out.

As Molly walked to her car, this was around 11am, she texted Amy, I feel like I'm looking over my shoulder all the time.

Amy replied telling her that Josh had no sense of what was normal and told her, just try to get home safe and text me when you get there.

Like, everybody is on high alert right now.

Molly read Amy's message but didn't reply.

Amy, just like Joanne, Molly's mom, assumed that she was just driving home and that's why she wasn't answering.

Yeah. But in reality, Molly didn't even have time to lock her car doors before Josh ripped open the car door and attacked her.

He stabbed Molly more than 75 times and then calmly exited the vehicle, leaned up against it, white t-shirt soaked with her blood, and just waited for somebody to call the police.

When they arrived, he told them, quote, it's me you're looking for.

She's in the car. I killed her. Just completely unemotional.

My God. Molly was declared dead at the scene at 11.43 a.m., and she was 23 years old.

She had just turned 23. And hadn't he slit her throat, too?

Oof. Yes. And from what I remember hearing, like, and I don't know if this is true...

Maybe you can tell me that somebody actually came to block him in with their car.

Is that true? Yeah, it is true. And he just stood there.

I remember hearing that on the news. He wasn't trying to get away, but that was a good Samaritan just being like, yeah, here I am.

I got to keep you in here. So all the while, Joanne and Amy were waiting to hear back from Molly, thinking that she was just driving home.

Like, Joanne literally thought that she just got caught in traffic.

Of course. But at the same time, she was like, is something wrong?

Like, a mother's instinct. She had a feeling.

Yeah. It only took Molly 15 minutes to get home.

Even if she was in traffic, she should have been home at that point.

Yeah. And then Amy and Joanne got messages asking if they had seen what happened at the dockside where Molly's gym was.

And another friend looked at Molly's snap location and saw that she was still at the gym.

So they knew what had happened. They immediately knew that Josh had done something to her.

The police arrived at Joanne's home and told her that Molly, her only daughter, had been murdered.

And Joanne had to call her husband, Doug, who was on a boat for work, A hundred miles away when he received this news.

Oh, my God. Now, obviously, Josh was promptly arrested and was taken to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation.

And when his trial started on January 23rd, 2018, he would only plead guilty to manslaughter and said that it was on the grounds of diminished responsibility.

No. His reasoning was that he had a personality disorder.

And in the UK, this is grounds for diminished responsibility.

Essentially, for us here, like, not guilty by reason of insanity.

Okay. Now, Josh saw two psychiatrists while he was in custody to figure out if he did indeed have a personality disorder that led to him killing Molly.

Not did he have one, but did it lead him to kill Molly?

Yeah, was it something that would have made it so that he could claim this diminished?

Right, like he was out of control or, you know.

The two psychiatrists were Dr. Saeed Majid, who is the lead forensic consultant at Thornsfield Park Psychiatric Hospital, and Dr. Philip Joseph.

Both doctors disagreed on Josh's diagnosis.

Dr. Majid found Josh to be suffering from, quote, a severe case of borderline personality disorder, and said that when Josh killed Molly, he was suffering from an abnormality of functioning that stemmed from his mental illness and his previous abandonment issues.

The doctor claimed that Josh had a hypersensitivity to any form of rejection, and he was the doctor that was called to testify for the defense.

On the other side of things, Dr. Philip Joseph was called on behalf of the prosecution and claimed that Josh actually showed no apparent signs of any mental disorder that would impact his understanding enough to not hold him responsible for his actions.

He claimed that Josh was simply immature, vain, and had narcissistic traits.

And he showed absolutely no remorse even after the murder.

Wow. Had he lost it and this was like a passion crime and his personality disorder made him do this, he may have shown remorse afterwards.

Yeah, because it wasn't him. It wasn't him.

You know. But he did not. Interesting. Interesting.

Wow. Now, once all of the evidence was presented, it took the jury less than four hours to deliberate.

And when they came back, they did not find him guilty of manslaughter.

They found him guilty of first-degree murder.

Good. And the judge, Adele Williams, agreed with Dr. Phillip that Josh did not have a personality disorder, but instead, just an issue with women.

Yep. During sentencing, she told Josh, quote, "...this was a cruel, calculated, and cowardly act.

This was an act of wickedness." Yep. Yep.

Her family's grief and anguish is raw and apparent for everyone to see.

You are a highly dangerous young man and you will pose a very considerable risk to women for a very considerable period of time in the future.

And with that, he was sentenced to 26 years in prison.

I am so glad that she said all that because it's true.

Yeah. I'm glad that they just laid it right out there.

Like, you were pissed because she was done with you.

Exactly. And you're a little, little man.

It's clear as day. And you couldn't handle it.

It's clear as day. And you're an angry, violent piece of shit.

Yeah. And that's your problem. Exactly. And you're going to continue to be an angry, violent piece of shit.

And we can't let you do that. And we're not going to.

Yeah. Now, this is just like sad, but also just beautiful.

Yeah. July 10th, 2018 was the day that Molly was supposed to graduate from university.

And her parents, Doug and Joanne, were invited as guests of honor.

And they were, like, I'm getting chills right now.

They received Molly's diploma in sports and exercise for health.

And the entire hall, which was massive, gave Molly and her parents a standing ovation.

And, like, her friend Jennifer, the one that she'd made on the first day, said that they blew the roof off the place.

Oh, I love that. Everyone was just hooting and hollering.

The video made me cry and it makes me want to cry right now.

It's so sad. The community that surrounds these people is exactly what they need and what they deserve.

Joanne and Doug did set up a foundation in Molly's name called the Molly McLaren Foundation.

It offers help to people struggling with eating disorders.

And they celebrate Molly's birthday in the community every single year with a festival since she loved music festivals.

Oh, I love that. And they call it Molly Fest.

Oh, I love it. Molly's father, Doug, talked about the event saying, quote, the charity is secondary to this event.

It's all about Molly's friends and family coming together for an annual event that reinforces the person she was.

She was loved by so many and they will not forget her.

It gives Joanne and I so much pleasure to see all the people from the village and indeed all over Kent and beyond who knew and loved Molly and who are prepared to come and stand shoulder to shoulder with us once again and not let Molly fade from our memories.

Wow. Just like... Oof, so heavy. Now, luckily, like we were saying, or like I was kind of hinting at earlier, the Kent police took action when they realized that their many missteps led to what happened here.

So they actually called for an independent office for police conduct to come in and take an inquiry as to how they handled this case.

And to spot where they'd been wrong. So while they fucked up, they at least took responsibility for their fuck up.

That's all anybody can... ask for and improved that's literally all anybody can ask for exactly you fucked up in the biggest way you can possibly fuck up a girl lost her life during that fuck up but now you have taken the step back and you learn from it make changes that's all anybody can ask for here that's the thing so now um at this station and at the staffordshire police station stalking must be reported and handled as a crime whether the individual being stalked wants to press charges or not it has to be logged as a crime good so that way there's a paper trail yes because that's the important part here yes if if the staffordshire police department had logged the incident that this previous woman had gone through with josh this might not have happened yeah to molly it's that's just there's a possibility There's absolutely a possibility.

And it's so frustrating that it takes shit like this.

And what an important precedent to set, especially in the UK, where Molly was from, because at least two women a week, two women a week are murdered by their partners or ex-partners, and stalking-related behavior is reported in 94% of those cases.

Like, God. So I just want to say, if someone you know or you is involved in a situation similar to this, there are so many resources available.

And I'm going to include many, many resources in the show notes for this episode, as well as on social media, at the social media post for this episode.

This is just... It's just at every turn, like the anxiety I felt from way over here was immense.

I can't imagine what she was feeling, what her parents were feeling, what her friends were feeling, like watching this happen.

And just the fact that like they tried to do everything they could to keep her safe from this person.

And they went to the place where you're supposed to go if you feel unsafe.

Yeah. And they weren't really helped. And nothing was done.

They weren't really helped. No, not at all.

I mean, that's just the reality. It really is, and it's just devastating.

And like we just said, like, hopefully – and changes have been made, and hopefully they continue to be made in the future.

But stalking is a very real crime that – it's crazy how recent stalking laws were passed, even in the United States.

Oh, yeah. And it's literally – it's like the animal cruelty thing, where, like –

There's a very clear correlation between certain things that for some reason just goes completely ignored sometimes.

People ignore, yeah. And we don't look at these little things as possible, like ignition switches to something worse.

And it's like, can we start doing that? Right.

And then we can stop these things before they happen.

Right, exactly. And we won't have to wait until somebody loses their daughter or their sister or their best friend.

Right. And then make the changes. This man had a very clear pattern.

Yeah. A very clear pattern. You couldn't watch that as a police officer and not be like, wow, something bad's going to happen here.

Exactly. Come on. All the warning signs were there.

And it's just absolutely devastating that Molly had to lose her life for change to happen.

I also think this is such a cautionary tale for young girls especially, but young anybody on social media.

Yeah. do not post where you are while you're there.

Post after you've left. Do not share your location with people you don't trust.

Do not share your location with that many people.

They can share your location with more people.

Yeah. And I even saw, and it's interesting that you picked this one and I didn't even know it because last night I happened to stumble across a TikTok where someone was being like, does anyone know this new trend on TikTok and like how dangerous it is?

What is it? And it's something where people are posting their best friend or loved one who lives far away.

They'll start the video and be like, wow, I wish I could see this person.

And then it's like, I think it's supposed to be like, in my head, they're only this far away.

But in reality, they're this far. And they're showing...

The map of their place and the other person's place, it's literally giving someone your location and your loved one's location.

No. And it's to this boppy song and all that.

And I saw somebody being like, guys, social media is not nice.

And that's the thing. These are not good people that are all around.

That's the thing. There are young, impoverished.

Rationable people on these apps that think this is just a cool trend.

I want to do this trend that everybody's doing.

No. Yeah, and it's like you think you're invincible when you're younger.

I really truly think that social media is doing more harm than it is good.

Oh, my God. Yeah, it is. I think... I think we're seeing it very real now with like how it's all kind of imploding on itself at the moment.

I honestly just hope that it continues to implode and then just explodes and goes away.

I would be happy for that. Give me my flip phone back.

I'm like holding my head up right now because I'm just so stressed out.

I would love to have my flip phone back with the fun little antenna.

Yeah, the fun antenna and also the fun little lights that were on it.

Or like the guy, hello, moto. Hello, moto.

Yeah, I love that shit. Seriously. Let's go back to the good old days.

But guys, just be careful out there. Yeah.

Like, take care of each other. Yeah, just be kind to each other.

Take care of each other. Be safe. Yeah. Don't be fucking assholes.

All of the above. And we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep listening. It's weird, but not so weird that you think anyone is your possession and that you have any right to continue to force somebody or try to force somebody to be with you when they do not want to be with you any longer.

Bye. Fuck off. If you think that. If you think that.

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[The Tragic Case of Molly McLaren: A Lesson in Stalking and Institutional Failure]-[Episode 400: The Murder of Molly McLaren]

📋 Summary

The Tragic Case of Molly McLaren: A Lesson in Stalking and Institutional Failure

Introduction: A Life Cut Short

The Illusion of Connection

A History of Stalking and Institutional Negligence

Escalation and the Fatal Finality

Justice and Legacy

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript