Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret.
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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
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The sale ends 831. Don't miss it. Hey weirdos, I'm Alayna.
I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. It's morbid.
Here we are. We're at part four, guys. We are.
I want to just say sorry to you, especially if it didn't sound like I was interested yesterday.
Who, me? Oh, you don't have to apologize to me.
Well, I saw a couple of people say it didn't sound like I was interested.
And I was like, oh, no, I'm literally just like very sick.
I was going to say ashes had a gnarly cold. but i am very much interested like i and this case is just like mind-boggling But I don't want you to think that I'm not interested.
No, I would never think that. No, I knew you were interested.
Hey you, listeners. Hey you. I'm interested and I hope that you guys didn't feel like I wasn't.
I'm just sick. She's just super sick. And you know, it's the monotone like Dayquil. voice yeah kind of thing i was hopped up on the the day quill yesterday the day cue and i also was trying like if anytime you made a joke i was like don't laugh because then i it would send me into a coughing fit so i was like Like, very, like, subdued laughter.
Well, you know, on that same vein, I think we had said, like, you know, this guy got naked before. calling Grace into the house.
Like it was clearly sexually motivated, like whether he says it or not.
There's one thing that I didn't say just because it's so foul that I didn't want to say it that will kind of dispute this.
Because a lot of people were like... Well, he said in the letter that he got naked because he didn't want blood on him.
That wasn't the means in which he killed her.
Well, and there's a few things that I can tell you that is wrong.
Yes, he did say that. One, I don't believe anything Albert Fish says. are his motivations because he's a lying sack of shit.
He also said he only killed one kid. Well, two.
He got naked before calling her in so that she had to see him standing there naked before she ran away.
And he choked her, which doesn't involve blood, so he didn't need to get naked before killing her, he could have done it after.
That was definitely his own sexual thing.
And the thing that I wasn't going to say, but now I'm going to say it just to make sure that it's very clear that he did this on purpose and that this wasn't just to make sure he didn't get blood on his clothes.
He said to several of the investigators that He got intense sexual pleasure out of choking her.
I will end it at that, but the most you can get.
That's why he was naked. That's why he was naked.
Like, this wasn't a case of him being like, well, I don't want to get blood on my clothes.
He wrote that in the letter. but he wrote a lot of shit in the letter that he probably didn't do.
And I just wanted to clear it up that, like, he is a sexual pervert.
He did that... He did that because he wanted to scare this 10-year-old girl with his dick.
That's why he did it. Yeah, 100%. He's a vulgar, crude, disgusting, depraved individual. this whole thing of like it never entered my mind to like sure maybe he didn't like physically rape her but he absolutely assaulted her in a different way sexually and he definitely used her in that way so he's disgusting he's a perverted rapist And I know people were just trying to point it out, but I just wanted to be clear that...
He's a lying sack of shit. Right. We shouldn't believe what he says.
He exaggerates. He lies. He tries to make himself look like a kindly old gentleman.
Right. I took my clothes off because I didn't want blood on them.
Like, he didn't give a shit. It's like, no, you were choking her.
That's what makes sense. Covered himself in blood on the regular, like he was beating himself with a paddle with nails on it, and then he just put a shirt on.
He didn't give a shit about getting blood on his clothes.
And there's also many, many numerous ways where he couldn't have gotten blood on him afterwards.
He could have put a sheet over himself like yeah they got naked to be disgusting if he had killed He killed her in a different way.
If he had mentioned that he was going to kill her, you know, he killed her by stabbing her.
Right. Or bludgeoning her, even. Mm-hmm. and he didn't want to get blood spatter on his clothes.
Sure, I can believe that, but he knew he was going to choke her.
And that doesn't involve blood. He just wanted to scare a little girl.
He's a fucking monster. He's the literal boogeyman.
So I just wanted to... I wasn't going to let that one because it's like real foul, but...
I feel like it's important to know at this point that he is a lying sack of shit and that letter really doesn't mean shit.
Because honestly, we don't even know if that's how he killed her.
So we honestly don't know and we'll never know because he made sure of it because he's an asshole.
But yeah, so I just wanted to point that out.
I also found out something really interesting.
One of our patrons, Felix... I want to thank him for putting this little thing out there.
Dr. Wortham, the defense's expert witness, psychologist who he really told a lot to.
He actually went on to publish a book called Seduction of the Innocent.
And it was apparently all about how comic books and movies and television create criminals.
So he's the defense's expert witness for this whole thing.
So I wish you could see my face right now.
I'm like, Oh, That argument. Yeah, he went on to create a couple more books to he really devoted his life and his professional life into saying that entertainment created criminals.
The movies made me do Pretty much. So thank you, Felix, for pointing that out, which allowed me to go deeper into that because when I found it out, I was like, what?
You were like, oh, let's go. It made a lot of sense.
So, yeah, that's crazy. But I think when we left off.
Yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday. We had just found out that he had shoved what ended up being about 29 needles into his groin and pelvis.
Oh yeah, that's where we left off. And that the chief radiologist, Dr. Roy D. Duckworth, was the one who got the distinct pleasure of taking that x-ray.
Yeah. And that they were different sizes.
They were different time periods being in there.
Some of them were fresh. like rusty, like only from a couple of weeks ago.
Some of them were so old, they were like corroding inside of him.
And they didn't take them out. I think somebody asked us, like, did they take those out?
Because couldn't they be like weapons? Yeah.
And that's a very good point. They were so far inside of him that he couldn't get to them.
They couldn't even remove them. He'd have to have like actual surgery.
He would have to have like legit. And some of them were like embedded into his system.
So it's like they literally couldn't. oh but don't worry they were definitely not reachable to be weapons for sure gotcha which is horrifying But now we are getting to the trial.
So March 1935 was the trial for Albert Fish for murdering Grace Budd.
And not Grace Spud. grace bud not a gray potato i know i've seen So many people were like, which I get it, because when I say it fast, go like gray spud.
It sounds like gray spud. But it's like Worcestershire sauce all over again.
It really is. And I'm also like, she's 10 years old and she got murdered.
So let's make sure we... Her name is Grace Budd.
I didn't realize, like I said before, that the Lindbergh baby trial was at the same time. time that this was going on.
I had no idea. I just didn't... I didn't put it together in my brain.
I don't know why. Yeah. Same time period, I don't know why I didn't think of it.
But that's why Albert, while he got a ton of attention in the press, It was a little shoved off to the side because obviously the Lindbergh baby trial was like, I was going to say the thing.
Um, But while this was going on, he corresponded, like I said last episode, with his children via letters.
They're very interesting to see and Deranged, the book, has a lot of these letters and I again implore you to read that book if you want to know more about this case because he got a lot of access to different documents.
At this point, he had decided that his son, Albert Jr., was just... his nemesis at this point.
Because remember, Albert Jr. was the one who had denounced him publicly. was like that old skunk.
I knew something like that would happen.
He was the one that said, my God, grace is the name that he was screaming in his sleep for months.
Um, But he spoke to his other children.
He would not speak to Albert Jr. And he would only call him A when referring to him in letters. to his kids.
Dude, you're the fucking murderer here. It's wild.
In fact, in January of that year, he wrote to his daughter Gertrude and he said, what A does, I don't care.
He is no son of mine now dear Gertie if you never do anything else for me I want you to do this don't you ever call him your brother again Never allow him inside your home.
Teach your little ones to despise him. Why?
What the fuck? It's like because he thinks you're an old creep?
Because you are an old creep? You murdered a little girl and admitted it.
Like, really? You murdered multiple. little children.
And it's like Gertrude thinks you're an old creep too.
She just doesn't know how to handle it. like that's all because you've messed them up in many ways it's like you think you can control us from prison too and like like you get to decide what's going to happen to my children you child murderer like really are we really gonna go here no he also wrote to his son john John is the one that was working in North Carolina, and he was the one sending them up those $25 checks every month.
Were you going to say gift cards? I almost said gift cards.
Those $25 Target gift cards. You know, that every single month, like at that point, I'm like, was it Radio Shack?
I don't know. But John was working in North Carolina as part of the Civilian Conservation Corps.
And he was, again, sending him those monthly checks.
He wrote him. So Fish wrote John. that although he didn't blame him, it was definitely his fucking fault for joining the CCC and getting him caught.
Because if he wasn't going to get that check... that he was sending him every month, then he never would have been found out.
How dare you send me money, son? So he's literally saying, and it's not even like, that's even crazy to be like, you sending me those checks got me caught.
He's like. You never should have got a job in North Carolina at the CCC and then sent me those checks every month.
Because if you didn't join that job in North Carolina, I never would have got caught.
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Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. start your free trial in apple podcasts spotify or the wondery app He wrote him and said, I don't blame you, my son, for my trouble, but if you had not joined the CCC, I would not be in here.
I waited for the check until December 13th when I went to 200 E52 and then I got caught.
So he's literally like, Bitch, you sent me a check late and that's how I got caught.
If I was John, I would literally be like, I'm glad that I sent you the check late because it got a child murderer. off the street it's also don't fucking write me again it's outrageous xoxo john It is outrageous.
PS, you fucking suck. And he also, he. was telling his other children the same thing, that it was the check that ruined him. and not actually murdering children.
It was, I got caught And my life is ruined because John sent me those checks.
If he had never joined the CCC, I never would have been caught.
That way of thinking is so scary. The way that people can just turn things around and make it not like, Make things that are their fault, not their fault is the craziest thing to me.
It's outrageous. That is like gaslighting to the highest degree.
Oh, yeah. And then he would write to his daughters like that he was worried about them and that he wanted them to save their money, especially his daughters.
His sons, he was definitely like... trying to take care of, quote unquote, through letters.
But his daughters, he was like, seemed genuinely worried for their Okay.
And he wanted to make sure they had money and food.
And he actually told Annie at one point, his daughter, He said, don't come visit me.
He was like, and it's not because I don't want to see you.
I just want you to save your money. I don't want you to use it.
Um, weird dichotomy. Weird. Now he's, and it's weird because it's like, he's acting like this, like a father.
Right. Don't waste your money to come see me.
I would love to see you, but you need to feed your family.
But then also, his kids knew that he had been shoving needles in his body.
Some of them had seen them. Like, the needles were the thing.
I think at this point only a couple of them knew, had seen it. and without his knowledge, but they knew about the beatings he inflicted on himself and how he was like, manically religious and eccentric, as they called him, but they all again said he was a father and a mother to them.
And they loved him regardless, like they didn't want to, but they did.
Yeah. And his daughter Gertrude actually had a heart issue that she had been in the hospital for and she was okay, but she was like, had to be careful.
And he wrote her, quote, Now Gertie, dear, don't you come up here to see me.
I'm afraid of your heart. And besides, I really believe I would go all to pieces when I see you.
Hmm. Which is like a father. Absolutely.
Like, what the fuck? Like, how are you able to do that but not look at a ten year old child A 10-year-old little girl and not think of your own children.
That's the thing. How do you not... Compare, right.
And how do you take that child from their parents after spending time with her parents?
And not think about it. What if somebody did that to you?
But I don't think... But it's empathy. Right.
And that is sorely lacking in anything. And he does have empathy because he has empathy for his daughter.
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's that he can't see outside of his wants.
Exactly. He's so... It's narcissistic. It really is.
It's truly narcissistic. But Gertrude was the one who had a daughter, Gloria.
His granddaughter and Gloria was the one that he was just like in love with.
I would hate that. And Gloria was 11 years old and he claimed to adore her.
And he wrote her, this is the letter that is such a, stark contrast to Mary Nichols, his stepdaughter's letter.
How that one is like beyond inappropriate and scary.
That one made me so uncomfortable. This one says, my dear little Gloria, your poor old grandpa got your sweet note you sent him in mama's letter.
I am so glad to hear you still love me and always will.
You know as a baby and at all times, I loved you.
There have been times when I was at Mama's that I was cross and cranky, but I had much on my mind.
Since this has happened, mama can tell you what that was.
I'm so happy to know that you are doing so well at school.
Stick to it and learn all you can. Someday before long now, you will be able to go to work and help poor mama and papa.
They have struggled hard for each of you, as I have also struggled hard for each of them in the years that have passed.
I am well. Trust in God and have no fear as to what the result will be.
You know I love each of you dearly and always will.
Pray every night for your poor old grandpa.
Write soon again. If you read that not knowing who that person is, you'd be like, oh man, this... sweet old grandpa yeah like that's how you talk to your grandchild right like love you so glad so sad that i was Sometimes I was cranky and I'm sorry for that.
And your mom will explain it to you. And I've loved you since you were a baby.
I always will. So glad you're doing great in school.
And it's so great. He writes to an 11 year old and like never uses the word kiddie.
No, that's exactly. Because it's like he's in, how do you say that word?
Like infantilizing? Yeah, it's like, that's exactly, it's like he's like fetishizing his 18-year-old stepdaughter.
His 18-year-old stepdaughter, but then like which I'm glad he's not doing that to this 11 year old, but it's like, what the fuck?
Just to see the stark contrast. Like my stepkiddy. kind of thing.
And then with Gloria, he says, my dear little Gloria, which is so much more appropriate and adorable and like, wholesome sounding you know and like there's I don't know it's just so weird to me I can't wrap my brain around it Like, I'm proud of you.
And saying like your parents have struggled hard to make sure you're okay.
I struggled hard for them. Someday you're going to be able to help them.
Right. Like a very innocuous letter. It's so weird to me.
I could not... I could not just wrestle with it.
He will never be understood. This will...
Never be understood. And unfortunately, it's one of those things like he was right when he said, I think like, what did he say?
Society could benefit from studying- in my brain and body.
Like, yeah. I think we could. agree but then again it's like the same thing I go back to the like I don't want to get blood on my clothing thing it makes sense that everybody's like yeah I said that in the letter uh-huh we i mean what do we we can't believe anything he says no I mean, look at him talking to his granddaughter, Gloria, and he's sitting there saying, I love kids and anybody who hurts a kid should be horribly punished.
Mm-hmm. And then he's, I mean, a 10 year old.
Right. A year younger than his granddaughter.
It's so weird. If we could study his like, I mean, I don't even know how it works, but if you could study his like brain responses, and stuff like that versus things that he was saying.
It'd be interesting. Yeah, it would be... I think...
I mean, it sucks that it was at the time that it was, because there was not a lot of technology or tools.
But now you're just like, what the fuck was going on in there?
Right. It's like I wish that you could have, like, shown him something and had his brain hooked up and seen the different parts that trigger.
Yeah. It's true. It would have been very, very fascinating to just really use him, honestly, as a straight up...
Guinea pig. Yeah. Like just strap him in.
Also, I feel like he would have gotten some sick pleasure out of that.
He would have, for sure. So it really, you can't win here.
No, it's a catch 22. You really can't. Now he, again, he went really deep.
Like he immediately fell back into like religion in the Bible again.
He was reading it every day. He was quoting the scriptures.
Because what the fuck else is he going to do?
But then, and here's the thing, another perfect example of him being a bullshitting son of a bitch.
I'm obsessed with religion. I'm reading the Bible, like, blah, blah, blah.
But then they would do Catholic masses at the prison for some of the Catholic prisoners.
Yeah. and he would strip naked during these masses, stand in his cell, and jerk off to the sounds of them praying.
What? Guards always stopped him like in the middle of it, but like, This is what I'm saying.
There's no... logic happening here none whatsoever so this you can't connect any kind of logic with him like it doesn't Nothing connects.
It's a total... It's like one of those... huge rubber balls, rubber band balls, where all the rubber bands are all like corroded on the inside.
And when you peel them off, they're all stuck on each other and they make no sense and you can't unravel it at all.
You're in stress. And when you open it up, you just end up seeing this like nasty rotten ball of like corroded rubber bands.
So that's literally him. Yeah. none of it makes sense there's no like finding that end and unraveling it right it's just a mess that was a beautiful metaphor thank you I just came up with it.
A beautifully random metaphor. A beautifully rancid metaphor.
So during the trial... His lawyer, Dempsey, tried to claim that maybe he suffered from like lead poisoning.
What? Like, why? So apparently lead colic was a common thing that house painters dealt with at the time because of the lead point.
Lead paint would poison them. essentially okay i see um and it was part of the insanity defense they were desperately trying to get but And that's all well and fine.
I understand why they were trying to get an insanity defense.
And honestly, it's like not that far fetched.
But then you think about it, and he had already fucked his own defense like several times.
Like one, doctors already declared him sane.
Several times. Two, he had said a million times that he knew killing was wrong.
He felt guilty after killing Grace Budd.
The prosecution mentioned this in trial, saying, quote, He said that he knew what he was doing.
He said that he knew it was wrong to kill and that after he had done so, he felt guilty.
He knew it was a commandment that thou shall not kill.
That is what it says. He also had written and admonished his son for what he believed was the reason he got caught.
So he admitted to actively avoiding police capture.
Boom. He's not insane. He knows what's going on.
He's insane in a totally different way. Sure.
He knows what's happening here. Legally, he's very aware of what he's done.
Yeah, he's aware of the law. He was not out of his senses when he was doing this or afterwards or before.
He was just, he's just gross and sick and, Now, he also would nod off during the trial.
Are you kidding me? Yeah, he was like bored.
And most of the time he sat there and just covered his face with his hand. and just like stared off into the distance.
And he would only get, when his lawyer would talk, he would sometimes nod along with him, like, yeah, hell yeah, Dempsey.
But he would just nod off. He had no reaction whatsoever. to any of like the horrifying things they talked about.
He would just sit there like, yep, whatever.
Yeah. And the Budd family was actually on the stand at one point.
All of them came on the stand like separately.
And they were all asked one by one to identify Frank Howard, essentially.
And Albert Budd, who had a glass eye and a cataract in the other eye.
Oh man. Got off the stand. walked right up to Fish sitting at the table, pointed at him in the face and said, this is the man.
This is the man who took my child. Ugh. Then he started sobbing and they literally had to help him back on the stand and they had to take a recess shortly so that he could like... get together.
Now the confessions he had given, the several confessions where they were essentially all the same, but once in a while he would add another layer to it.
They were all red, and sometimes he laughed. while they were red.
Are you kidding me? Yeah, like he would chuckle to himself about certain parts.
And while all this horrific stuff was being read or discussed whenever they talked about the confessions or anything, the judge would order all the women out of the court.
Oh, wow. Because they said it was like not for women's ears.
It was so horrifying, which is crazy to think of now.
Which is like weirdly like annoying. Well, and it's like, it's, it's just funny to think of now when you're like, we are two women who are literally doing it at a time. podcast about this yeah okay uh delicate sensibilities you know oh my pearls all of his kids were on the stand at one point or another they brought them all on and more or less said the same thing.
He was a great father, just really eccentric.
There were definitely some weird things. then they would all relay some traumatic story of seeing him do weird shit.
And I think they would all slowly like they'd get on that stand.
They'd start talking. They'd say, you know, he was a mother.
He was a father. He never beat us. He never hurt us.
He never yelled at us. He never did anything bad.
We always had food on the table. We always had things. the basic necessities we needed.
But then they'd be like, yeah, like, yeah, like I walked in once and...
You know, like he was sticking needles in his groin, but like...
That's fine. And then you could see that they all were at one point being like, oh, shit.
Oh, like. Yeah, he didn't beat us or yell at us or like neglect us in any way.
But like he was definitely abusive in some weird... We just didn't realize it because that was... Off-brand way. because that's normal to them or not normal.
Like as they got older, they knew it was wrong, but.
They probably wouldn't have if they hadn't grown up going to their friends' houses where their dads were not snicking needles in their groins.
Well, that's the thing. And I think it's like... they were suddenly on the stand in real time discovering, which is really sad, Because they're going through this, going through this, and all of them at one point were like, oh, yeah, I guess it is weird that he would once in a while allow... himself to be seen doing the things that he would do to himself.
Right. Which is so sad. It's just like a whole other crop of victims that didn't even know they were victims.
It is. And now it's just like... the glass shatter moment that they're all just discovering that they are trauma victims.
And to have to be like... And to have to go through that while you're already kind of losing your father.
Yeah. In a weird way. Because you are. You're losing who you thought he was.
I was just going to say that. Exactly. I imagine it's the same with like, you know, like BTK's daughter.
Yeah. Like son, you know, I imagine that. it's one of those things where you know they're a terrible person now but like you are losing someone who you thought was your father.
You don't know that person. Yeah, exactly, because then it's like you probably look back on your happy memories and you think, Did he kill someone that day?
Exactly. Had he killed somebody the day before that?
Was he, like, trolling for a victim? Yeah.
It's... It's I can't imagine. And you probably look back on it and feel weird about yourself. like for loving them, even though you're supposed to.
Exactly. Because they love you in a weird way.
It's a very strange. I just I can't imagine what that must feel like it's a whole different kind of victimization you know and I don't think they get enough credit for being or recognition as well you know like they don't get enough like like somebody's got to take care of them too absolutely that really stinks But Albert Jr. was brought up by actually the defense to try to do like the insanity defense more because They thought Albert had spent a lot of time with his father when they were adults.
So I think they thought he would have a better outlook on like, yeah, he's definitely insane.
So he was asked about the paddles and the needles, and he said that one day he asked because several of the kids had noticed needles around, so he had asked his father You know, we saw needles around.
We saw this paddle. What's this about? So he said, quote, I asked my father who used the needles and he said, I did.
And I said, are they your needles? And he said, yes, they are. and I asked him what he used them for and he told me he got certain feelings that came over him and every time he did that, he would have to go into the bedroom or someplace and stick those needles into his body.
So do you think that was sexual or do you think that was a punishment?
I, I think it was all wrapped into one.
Sex and punishment, I think, to him were...
Hand in hand. I think that was like one didn't happen without the other, I think. in his mind to me that's what it looks like to me yeah i by no means can like diagnose him with anything To me, it looks like he has interlocked sex pleasure, pain, and punishment.
All in one box. And in not a normal like kink way.
Like, you know what I mean? Like, he's not just like, well, I like pain and I like pleasure and I like to like intertwine them sometimes.
Right. That's like a whole different thing. he brings it to like a religious punishment place and like a dark punishment place and And on the stand, Albert Jr. was asked, did your father say anything about sticking those needles in other people?
And he said, quote, Yes, sir, he told me he or yes, sir, he did.
He told me. When I can't stick them in myself I like to torture other people with them.
And I'm like, did anyone say Albert Jr., uh...
What? Maybe that was one of the times when he got admitted to a hospital or sent to prison.
Yeah, I wonder if something happened after that, but they didn't really push further.
Something must have come out of that. Because he did.
He spent time in hospitals and everything like that.
Oh, for sure. He was in Bellevue at least twice.
And he admitted and they because the doctors and the staff at Bellevue got a lot of shit in this trial.
Like they got put on the stand. They got admonished for you let him back out on the streets.
And, you know, like at one point they were yelling at like the, you know, the head of Bellevue, the head of psychiatry there.
They were like, you know, like so you just let him back out on the streets and the guy from Bellevue was like we are a city hospital like we can only do so much and they were like So what you can do is not the best, like you're not doing your best for these patients.
And the person got mad and was like, we are doing our best, but like, what do you want from me?
Like, I have so many resources. Yeah, and they were like, we can't predict that he's going to go out and murder people.
If it doesn't look like he's going to, we can't pretend that he is.
Well, we're not law enforcement. That's the end.
It's like, and we can only work with what we got if he's gonna fool everybody.
There's only so much we can do. And unfortunately, some people are able to fool everybody.
And it looks to me like, it's like, guys, can we please just... at least entertain the idea that he is just an evil son of a bitch?
Can we just entertain that idea? That it's not about... full on like he doesn't know what he's doing and it's about insanity.
He is insane in some capacity, some sense.
But it seems he's evil. He's an evil person.
Yeah. And it sounds like he was created.
So it's like... We got to at least talk about this idea.
And I think it just wasn't happening. I think it was the fact that it was like the 30s at this point or in the 40s.
The 30s. The 30s. And I think they just were like, what the fuck?
Like, we've never had anything like this before.
I mean, Detective King in the prosecution, we're definitely like, he is an evil son of a bitch.
Can we just all agree on that? But the defense was doing their job.
They were just trying to go the other way.
But Albert Jr. also went into, which I found strange, he said that...
It happened on full moons a lot that Albert Fish, his father would turn red-faced and like very red in the face, like he had been out in the sun all day.
And he said, and he would like crave red meat.
And he said he would like sometimes eat raw meat on those nights and say like, I just need to have raw meat.
Well, do you think that was just a weird fucking bit that he was doing?
He was almost insinuating that his father was a werewolf.
Okay, yeah. I was getting that vibe. And I was like, where were you going with that?
Like, do you really think he was a werewolf?
Like, did that... Now I'm just... I hate that we'll never know.
I'm like, was it every full moon? He said...
Most of the times on full moons, I would look outside and the moon would be full.
And that's the days that he would be the strangest and be like red-faced and craving red meat and like acting...
Like, up on the religious stuff. And I'm like... It...
So like, was he a werewolf? Is that what like is happening here?
Or do you think that... maybe even unknowingly somehow his son was trying to kind of play into the insanity defense.
Oh, I definitely wonder that. And hoping his dad would go to a hospital versus a prison.
Yeah. I think that was definitely all of his kids.
Definitely their hopes because that was their goals because None of his kids wanted him back out on the streets.
None of them. None of them were like, he is innocent.
None of them said he needs to, you don't know him.
None of them did that. They all were very much like, I'm going to give you what we knew about him, but I believe you.
Like, I believe what happened because he was, there was a lot of weird shit.
He's wild. And also they were like, I'm not going to pretend that he didn't do this if he admitted to doing it.
But they all wanted him in a hospital. They all were like, we don't want him to die.
Yeah. Like, that's... Because no matter what, if he was found guilty here of first degree murder, the mandatory sentence was death.
Right. So they were like, we don't want him to die, regardless of what is happening here.
Like, you know. So I do wonder if that was partially.
I think he might. of leaned into it a bit and maybe also he knew that he pissed off his father by denouncing him, and maybe he was trying to make up for it a little while.
I wonder if he was looking at him in the courtroom being like, see?
I got to do something like I still care about you, like I'm still trying to help you in some way, which is just Sad.
This is so sad. It's so tragic for these kids.
Like, I feel horrible for them. I feel horrible for everybody that Albert's life touched.
Yeah, it's like they had to be raised by Albert Fish, which like regardless of what kind of father he was, like they saw some weird shit.
And it's like their mother abandoned them after handing them.
I guess what she did is like the day she left, she handed them all money to go see a movie.
And then when they came back, she was gone.
And had taken all their furniture. Yeah.
And it's like, so they've just been like, the amount of trauma that they have is like outrageous.
But after this particular testimony where he was insinuating he was pretty much a werewolf.
Is that what we're getting at right now?
Yeah. The press went wild. I was like, does he also bark at the moon?
Yeah, that was when the press really gobbled this one up because you know they loved it.
Especially Albert Fish. They need a headline.
They love to give him a nickname too. I'm like, just call him Albert Fish. but they love to give him a nickname.
So he was called the thrill vulture. The Ogre of Old Wisteria, The Vampire Man, and my favorite, The Moon Maniac.
The Moon Maniac. All those way too cool names for him.
Me cleansing my crystals. The Moon Maniac.
Drew's like, there she goes again, the moon maniac.
Me running out back. Me, I'm the ogre of old Wisteria.
You are absolutely not an ogre. I'm just kidding.
That's how I feel sometimes when I wake up in the morning.
That's how I think everybody feels when they wake up in the morning, like an ogre of old wisteria.
You know what? Way too cool of names again for this guy.
His name is Albert Fish. His name is Hamilton.
Ham and eggs. That's his name. So Gertrude had nothing but good things to say on the stand, but she cried her eyes out on the stand.
She weeped the whole entire time. She even walked up, in fact, after her testimony, she walked up to Edward Budd, Grace's brother, the hallway outside of the courtroom and personally apologized for what her father had done So these kids are like good kids, like they're good humans.
And they're just like thrust into this and they like, that's a big person to walk up to like, cause it's scary.
You don't know how they're going. going to react i mean that person has every right to tell you to get fucked like She walked right up to him and was like, I personally am apologizing for my father and I could never bring your sister back and I'm sorry.
Right. Like... that's big you know what the thing is too it's like so obviously like we've sat here and said he was created But then how can we not sit there and say the same thing about these children?
They saw... Because he didn't... abuse them.
No, no, no. And I know he was abused, obviously.
But they also saw the most fucked up shit one could see.
And turned out fine. It's a different kind of trauma. all said that they mostly saw this stuff.
Not all of them saw it. And then the ones that did see it saw it when they were a little older.
But even when they were kids, he was having them beat him with a paddle.
But he was doing it under the guise of a game, which we'll get to.
That is true. And I'll talk about that game.
He made it a game. So he made it seem like now for sure trauma.
Right, right. Back then they didn't know anybody.
They didn't really. They thought it was a fun game.
My dad's fun. He lets us hit him with a paddle.
Like, it's funny. That's the thing. So they were never, they were never really aware of the like a abuse that was like lingering like right behind the veil of decency kind of thing Because they were never hit.
They were never shown violence like as a way like towards them.
Right. So he, on the other hand, that orphanage taught him...
I mean, like beyond beyond because those orphanages definitely put pain and punishment and like sexual abuse all in the same pot all the time oh yeah so it's like that was just gonna create but again not everybody who came out of that orphanage turned into albert fish right i think it obviously it had a hand but i also think Albert Fish is who he is.
Yeah, he's just an evil son of a bitch. Or maybe it's paired with, like, you know...
Didn't he have head trauma? He did have head trauma.
He fell out of a cherry tree. So maybe it's paired with that.
I think it's got to be a perfect mix. Like an imperfect storm.
It really does. Now on the stand. Gertrude actually even said, because I think they asked him about animals, like, did he ever hurt animals?
And she said, no. And they said... You know, what did your father say to children? say anything to children if they struck animals, like if they hurt animals or were rough with animals.
And she said because they always had a dog.
I guess so. They were like, you had a dog.
Kids can be rough with dogs when they're younger.
What would he say? And she said, oh, he would always say, don't do that.
You'll hurt the poor little dog. And then she said, he never smoked and he never drank.
Like he was never impaired in any way. Weird.
Which again is just like wild. Yeah. Now, his daughter Anna says she remembers something very specific about his religious mania.
Uh-huh. One night she came down and he was rolled up in a carpet.
Yeah, you mentioned that. With his head sticking out. out yeah and but she told him to go to bed and the next morning he was still in the carpet He had been in there all night.
And then she asked him why, and he said, because John the Apostle told him to.
Right. He was snug as a bug in a rug. And it's like, so he told you to roll yourself up in a carpet for eight hours?
Like, why? But another child, Eugene, said He once walked in and he found him naked and just standing at a window like with a paintbrush, like a dry paintbrush with no paint on it.
And he was just brushing the side of a window, like pretending to paint, just like vibing with a, Just naked.
Do you think that... I'm like, do you think every five minutes...
Do you think that he, John the apostle, maybe in his mind told him to do that? because he had already hurt somebody and like that was the punishment for doing that.
Maybe, you know, maybe. Maybe that was like some kind of religious delusion because he did know that killing was wrong.
That's true. And then it was like. he was punishing himself somehow for that.
Yeah. By like making himself sit in a rug for eight hours.
It's highly possible because she never gave like a timeframe for it, so it could have been.
Who knows? Eugene also said he did walk into him and he was sticking needles in himself at one point and he told him that Christ told him to.
Okay. And Eugene like sobbed on the stand when he told this story because it was a glass shatter moment for a lot of them.
Now, Mary Nichols, the stepdaughter. Yeah.
She got on the stand. What the hell did she have?
And they were like, okay. And she said he never physically sexually abused me.
He was never physically like... outwardly inappropriate to me.
Did they ask her about the letter? But they said they didn't ask her about the letter, but they did ask her because it wasn't entered into evidence okay but they did ask her you know did did you ever see him hit himself?
Did you ever see it? And she was like, well, we used to play this game that like now I'm seeing as something different.
And they said, OK, what was that game? And she said it was called Buck Buck.
How many hands up? And they were like, okay, you're gonna have to explain that to me.
And I don't know what that is. We're not familiar.
So she said... ¶¶ And he put those on and came out into the front room and he got down on his hands and knees and he had a paint stick that he stirred paint with.
He would give the stick to one of us and then he would get down on his hands and knees and he would sit And we would sit on his back one at a time with our back facing him.
And then we would put up so many fingers and he was to tell us how many fingers we had up.
So like he can't see their fingers and he has to guess how many fingers they have up.
And if he guessed right, which he never did, We weren't supposed to hit him.
Sometimes he would even say more fingers than we even had on our hands.
And if he never guessed right, why we would hit him as many fingers as we would have up.
So they would sit on his back, and he's on his hands and knees.
They'd put their hands up. with however many fingers.
He guesses because he can't see. And if he gets it right, then we're good.
But if he gets it wrong, however many fingers you're holding up, that's how many times you get to whack him with the paintbrush.
And it's weird too, because obviously hearing that as an adult, you're like, what the actual fuck?
Hearing that as a kid, that does sound like a silly game.
Hilarious. It's just like, what? okay i'm gonna whack you with this paint thing like i guess this is hilarious right Okay.
And so they were like, all right, well, yeah, there you go.
And the other one they would play is called Sack of Potatoes Over.
And she said, he put on those little trunks, and then he would throw us up on his shoulder, and we would slide down his back.
And we would scratch him with our nails as we went down his back.
By the time we would get through playing, why his back would be red.
And again, your grandpa's tossing you over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes and letting you just slide down the back.
And he's like, just scratch as you go down.
When you're a kid, you're like, ha ha, this is funny.
But it's when you put it in the context and also it's like, why were you in little trunks? when you said that I was like I gotta go that's the thing but again when you're a kid It's your grandfather or your father, your stepfather.
Right. Who's... You're not gonna be like, I bet he's getting off on this.
Like, that's not a thing you're gonna know or even consider.
And... So he must have been married to her mom for like a little bit longer if she knew him as a kid.
Yeah, I think... No, this was when she was like... Because I think it must have been...
I think because she was like 18 at this point.
When he wrote the letter, yeah. They were married, I'm trying to think of, or she must have been 17 because she had just turned 18.
Yep. So she must have been like an early teen or maybe like... preteen or something like that which is still like a kid yeah of course yeah yeah But no matter what, all those marriages happened within a year or so.
That's so crazy. So it couldn't have been that long.
But she also said that he got a package of needles once and stuck them under his fingernails.
Oh, my God. Ow. And then told them they could stick them under his fingernails, too, if they wanted to.
And they all said they didn't want to. to i hate fingernails yeah yeah have you ever broken an acrylic nail and like your actual nail comes off no I'm like feeling that right now.
I'm like feeling it. I don't know. I'm like literally like putting pressure on my nails so they don't come off.
I don't like nails or like teeth coming out.
Like when teeth are ripped out or nails are ripped out.
Yeah. If teeth are like violently ripped out, I can't handle it.
But like one of your kids has a loose tooth and I'm like, you gotta go no I can't it freaks me out I used to love having loose teeth when I was little I'm not psyched about that but nails get out of here Get out of here.
Get out of here. Get out of here, kid. Especially, oh my God, a hangnail.
Sorry. Okay. I was like, we're just going to go deep into this pathology of why you hate nails.
Yeah, we are. After all the kids, they brought Dr. Worsham out.
But he explained that Fish's job as a painter, and I do agree with this thing that he said.
He said Fish's job as a painter was essential to his horror show of a personality.
He said this job was one where he could be around kids in homes, in apartment buildings and things like it.
He worked in places with basements where he took kids often.
He would lure them in there. And he said he was almost always naked under his painter's coveralls.
And he said for reasons, you know, I'm sure you can deduce for yourself.
Of course. He said it was all part of his predatory life.
He worked to find victims and his ideal victims were kids.
He had it down to a science and only fell out of his pattern in ways when he started killing kids.
Yeah. Because at first he was just raping them and like hurting them.
He would just lure poor kids down to a basement with candy and shit.
Yeah. It was like, Yeah, he was a literal boogeyman.
And he said on the stand, quote, Now this man has roamed around in basements and cellars for 50 years.
There were so many innumerable instances that I can't even begin to give you how many there are.
But I believe to the best of my knowledge that he has raped 100 children at least.
Holy God. And here is where things got really scary because Dr. Wortham revealed that He believed this pattern that Fish basically admitted himself was way more far reaching than people were really understanding.
He said whenever he would rape or torture or hurt a child, he would just move on to another city. another neighborhood or another state to work.
Yeah. And he said he had lived or worked quote, in no less than 23 states from New York to Montana.
And in every state he has had something to do with children.
And this to me says a lot. There are a lot more victims of Albert Fish.
And there could be accomplices that were dropped along the way, one used in this state, one used in this state.
Like he said, we know how to find each other.
We have a code. And who knows if he even had teen accomplices or some shit and he ended up using... using them too well it's like remember the kid who um he was like an angel came to me And the man was like, you don't want to go in there.
People go in there and they don't, children go in there and they don't come out. how many children were in there?
Exactly. You know? And where are they? Exactly.
Like, what is going on? Because they don't.
I feel like there's so many missing kid cases and so many unsolved murders of children in other states. to him that around this time period, you got to look into it.
You gotta see. I swear I want to like go look at all these and see if I can connect any other ones.
I want to connect more to him because I know he did more.
Of course he did. There's no doubt in my mind.
Yeah. You don't start the way he started.
No. There had to have been some before that.
Now he explained that he had gathered a long and very sordid list of sexual perversions from the orphanage. and from living on the streets as a young teen, and he was also He had traveled overseas at some time or another.
He had visited underground brothels that specialized in sadomasochism.
Yep. And he then came back and he did all those things to kids. and he said he is certainly a sexual sadist and a pervert, but he wasn't looking so much to rape in the sense that we think of it.
He was looking to inflict as much pain as possible to elicit as many sounds and as much evidence of pain as possible. on children oh that's that was the goal pain and suffering was the goal that is the end game here He said, quote, he has on a number of occasions taken flowers taken roses and inserted those roses into his penis. then he would stand before the mirror and look at himself.
He would get a sexual gratification from that.
In the end, he would eat the roses. This is who we're talking about.
What? Yeah. He told the doctor worth of this.
He would eat them. Now. he also went into the whole religion thing where Fish claimed he was a religious man and it was the thing he was most proud of. and all that, that he was a religious man.
I don't buy it, like I said before. He claimed part of the urge to kill was the story of Abraham and Isaac, like I talked about.
And he figured if it wasn't right, then God or an angel would stop him before he finished it.
That's a bullshit excuse, just like this insanity thing.
Fish is an evil fuck, and he knows what he wanted to do.
He wanted to get off on causing pain to children and period the religion angle it's a cop-out in my opinion Wertham believed Fish's religious mania also made him eat Grace Budd's flesh and drink her blood because it was like communion.
Thank you. What? Personally? No. I don't buy that.
No. If you do that as your prerogative, I do not agree with that.
No, I think that was again to get the insanity.
I think he was fucked up And I have no, I do not think he saw any of this as any kind of religious experience.
I think he uses it. And he said the reason why he wanted to try her flesh He had met somebody who had done, had experienced cannibalism.
Exactly. He said it right in the letter.
And it's like, again, who are we to believe here?
But Wertham believed he was insane and he said that on the stand.
Yeah. But a professor of neurology, Dr. Henry Riley, said he also believed that he was insane. and that religious mania was the main component.
He also agreed. Again, I disagree. He said, quote, that he had received a direct command, or he had done this to Grace and to the other children.
He said because he had received a direct command that he should take a virgin and sacrifice her. so she shouldn't become a harlot.
So wait. Was it a command to abduct and murder Grace?
Was it a spontaneous change of plans when he saw her?
Was it he thought she was a boy initially?
Because he has now claimed all of those things, so forgive me.
For now, really, what, excuse me, so now this new virgin trumps harlot defense? is happening right i thought he thought that she was a boy when she saw like i thought we don't want this little girl to become a harlot, so I was commanded by God to kill her.
But wait, you just said that you thought she was a boy.
And what about the whole Abraham and Isaac thing with the son?
Isn't that the one? Are we confusing our Bible passages here?
It's just a desperate plea. Get fucked, my dude.
Like, get fucked. You're really going to sit here and try to claim every single religious Bible passage is why you did this?
Stop. stop it's just a religion a waste of a waste of time and it just doesn't i'm like You have claimed 16 different things for why you did this.
And it's insulting to... actual religious people.
That's what I mean. Like incredibly insulting.
You are making it seem like this this is normal right this is what is meant out of those pat and it's like no Like, what are you talking about?
And just to be, okay, I was commanded to do this.
So that's why I did it. oh oh wait no no when i saw her i spontaneously had to change my plans i came he said i came up with that party idea while she was going to get candy with her sister.
So wait, was it spontaneous or a command ahead of time?
And then wait. So you wanted to change this little girl from a harlot to a virgin, you wanted to make sure she stayed a virgin, but you just said that you thought she was a boy.
So it's, No, no. So that was annoying. And I imagine anybody in that courtroom that felt the same way I did probably wanted to like explode through the ceiling yeah now fish told his lawyer in a written note during the trial he handed him a little note And it said, before you sum up, read to the jury Jeremiah chapter 19, ninth verse.
Okay, do you have it? And he did not read it, but that verse reads...
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters. and they shall eat every one of the flesh of his friend in the siege and straightness. wherewith their enemies and they that seek their lives shall straighten them.
It says that in the Bible. i don't i don't understand these kind of verses i don't get what they are what this is in reference to but uh Yeah, I guess.
So he didn't read it. His lawyer did not read it.
But he was like, I don't know if that was to, like... really try to hammer in the religious thing, which I think it is like, see, the Bible said it.
And it's like, okay, shut up. Also, you're not supposed to take things literally.
Sometimes things are just meant. I mean, that one I'm concerned about, but again, I have not read the Bible, I don't know a lot about the Bible, so I'm not going to sit here and claim to have some kind of I mean, if that's in there, I feel like we need a little bit of a copy edit.
I'm intrigued by that. I don't know what that means.
But then his lawyer, Dempsey there, he gave his closing argument.
And in it, he kind of blamed the buds. Are you shitting me?
So he said. No. And I quote. I would have fucking flipped a table.
Yeah. I would have Teresa Judaiced it. There you go.
In case you don't know what that's a reference to.
Real Housewives of New Jersey. There you go.
This is what he said. He didn't. But I honestly do believe, gentlemen, that one of the reasons why Mr. and Mrs. Budd feel so badly is because they permitted that little child, whom God had given to them for protection and care during her infancy and childhood,
They permitted that little girl to be taken off by this defendant. is not a case, gentlemen, where the man takes the little girl off the street or by force.
This is a case where the man took the child with the consent and permission of the parents.
Now whether they appreciated it or not, the fiend that this man was, he was, after all, a total stranger to them.
And I say to you advisedly that there is no feeling of protection in the animal sphere or in the human sphere No feeling of protection such as a mother gives to her child.
I submit that some of the responsibility must go to that family for permitting that little girl to go with an absolute stranger on that particular Sunday.
Yeah, it's Grace Budd's mom's fault. that a sick depraved man who tricked them and literally thought like, She thought that he was giving her son a job.
That's the thing. It's like we're talking like post-Depression era, like right as the Great Depression. depression happened like people were desperate of course people were putting ads in the paper.
Her son was an 18 year old man. She was going to go work for this and help his family who they met.
Do I agree with allowing your child to walk off with this man?
No, I don't. I'm not going to sit here and say that I would do anything like the Buds did, but I'm also not going to admonish them I was not, I don't, I don't know.
It's not their fault that some monster came into their house.
This is also one of those examples where it's a man in a position of power.
Yep. using said power to manipulate people, and then we go and blame the people who were manipulated. she probably didn't want to jeopardize her son's job.
And she said that hadn't yet started. She literally said that.
She said she sat there for a second when he asked her to go and said like, I don't want to make him feel weird. you know, my son's going to be working for him.
I don't want to jeopardize this job and like make him feel insulted.
Right. And she said she questioned herself and she did it anyway.
And she's living with that every day. And you're going to just double down on that?
And also... An entire family was in on this decision, but we're gonna only focus on the mother?
It's the mother's job? Of course. because she's a woman.
So of course they're going to do that. I'm like, get, you're an asshole.
Also, everybody, like I'm not a parent, but every parent has made some mistake in their parenting that they're not proud of.
And it's like, this is something that these, these people are living with for the rest of her life like you do not and also you do not need to take the responsibility of the man who murdered like, and I'm sorry.
So are we like sentencing her to prison time too?
Is that why you're bringing that up? Because realistically that has nothing to do with the fucking sentencing here.
For real. It's like, what are you doing?
Being a dick. She's not being put on trial.
Leave them out of it. Precisely. Oh, it just it made me.
That's a dick move. Insane. That's a dick move.
Well, in the prosecution, in their closing arguments, they said, quote, Mr. Dempsey, in his closing remarks, asked you to remember certain things about the defamation Defenseless Mr. Fish.
Gentlemen, I want you to remember the defenseless little innocent Grace Budd. as she kicked and screamed in the springtime of her life and said she would tell her mama.
Oh, I hate that. He also agreed with me about the religious bullshit.
He said, quote, There is no divine hallucination or divine command when he purchased that pot cheese. or those tools with which to carry out his nefarious plan.
And when he sent the telegram, there was not a divine command.
And when he went there that day, there was no divine command to go to that house.
Don't put any stock gentlemen in this divine command business.
That is merely a smokescreen again. Every step of Fish's crime spoke of premeditation and design. directed towards the fulfillment of a clear-cut goal, to satisfy his own sexual gratification.
That is exactly it. I am 100% on his side.
Me too. That divine command bullshit, because when you look at it, it's exactly that.
Was it a divine command for you to buy strawberries and cheese with which to ply this family to take their children away?
Yup. Was that part of it? Did God say, buy those strawberries and tell them that you grew them on your farm?
And have lunch with them. Unreal. And give little Grace candy money.
Yeah. Like. No, I don't think that was part of it.
I don't really see God telling you to do that.
No. But it took the jury less than an hour to decide that Albert Fish was guilty of first-degree murder with premeditation.
He would be going to the electric chair at Sing Sing.
Bye. So when he had been there before. Edward Budd told reporters, Grace Budd's brother, he said, I'm glad of the verdict.
It won't bring Gracie back. it was what he deserved oh and then albert budd the father said i had a funny feeling when i heard it It hit the top of my head when I realized he would go to the electric chair.
It put a tremor through me, but he deserves it.
Now after the trial, he was put in front of a judge to formally hear his death sentence.
And when it was read to him, he just smiled waved and said, thank you, judge.
I would have kicked him in the teeth. Later in the media, he said that famous quote, What a thrill it will be to die in the electric chair.
It will be the supreme thrill, the only one I haven't tried.
He just wants to say that to be like, can't get me.
Oh yeah. He's just saying it to everybody to be like, ha ha ha.
Like thanks for the gift. But then he goes back in his cell and he pees his pants in fear.
Exactly. Now, only a few days after the trial and sentencing because you're probably sitting here going, What about Billy Gaffney and Francis McDonald?
That was my next question. I was like, are we going to end without finding out what happens there?
Only a few days after the trial and sentencing, he suddenly said, I have more to tell you.
No. And he admitted completely to murdering Billy Gaffney.
The letter is the one I mentioned I think in part one, the one that I'm like...
Don't read it. No, no, no. And also, I'm so sorry a lot of you went and read it.
I know that's like partially... But you said not to. you know, telling a little kid not to touch the red button.
And it's like, it's really hard not to. Like, I feel you.
When somebody tells me not to, I immediately want to.
I can't stress this enough that this is not one of those situations where I'm like, don't do it.
It's like, don't do it. Literally don't.
Like it's not worth it. You're not going to get anything out of it.
It's a hard letter. Somebody said that they got physically sick after reading it.
I felt physically sick after reading it.
I'll read you just like a little snippet that has nothing to do with the actual like act. um the letter said there is a public dumping ground in riker avenue astoria All kinds of junk has been thrown there for years.
I will admit the motorman, which is the... the train conductor guy, a motorman, who positively identified me as getting off his car with a small boy was correct.
I can tell you that at that time, I was looking for a suitable place to do the job.
Wow. He then described in horrid detail... that he had tied up, tortured, murdered, and dismembered four-year-old Billy Gaffney before bringing pieces of him home and eating him for days, is what he said.
Now, I also saw in one of the old articles that Dempsey claimed that Fish had admitted to killing Billy Gaffney... the February before he was convicted, and it was just never followed up on.
What? That's wild. Why? I guess he had said it to some psychologist.
He could have gone to trial. Yeah. So December 21st, 1934, the Brooklyn Daily Eagle talked about how the Gaffney refused to believe that Albert Fish had stolen and killed their boy.
And I don't blame them. Maybe because they knew of the horrific details of what happened to Grace, bud.
Well, that's... They just were like, nope.
And I guess the mom, Mrs. Gaffney, said, no.
He had nothing to do with Billy. I never saw a man around these parts that looked anything like him.
If he had taken Billy away, he'd have admitted it just as he did about Grace Budd.
No, nothing like that ever happened to Billy.
Billy still lives. I'll see him again someday.
Then Mrs. Gaffney told the Times Union in December, after this whole letter came out.
She said, if fish can identify the clothing, or excuse me, this wasn't Mrs. Gaffney, it was Mr. Gaffney.
He said, quote, if Fish can identify the clothing Billy wore the day he disappeared, then I'll believe he took our boy, but not otherwise.
So March 25th, he was transferred. I mean, he got a...
He was given a chance to, and he never did, but I'll tell you.
March 25th, he was transferred to Sing Sing Prison, finally.
And that day, he finally admitted to abducting and killing Frances McDonald.
He said he strangled him with his own suspenders so hard that he bled. and that he only stopped there because he heard someone coming, he thought, and he just ran away after kicking some leaves onto the dead boy.
He had intended to dismember him. He said that was his intent, but he just didn't get to.
So three days later, he kept a bone from a pork chop dinner he had at Sing Sing, sharpened it again and carved an eight inch cross into his torso dude a show in my opinion that really was like, see? religious yeah it's him trying to get because he tried to get reprieves he tried to get stays so this was all part of the thing yeah Now, not long after this, Mrs. Gaffney traveled to Sing Sing to talk to him.
Wow. Mrs. Gaffney? Mrs. Gaffney. So Billy Gaffney's mom.
And she was the one who said like, I'm not going to believe it unless he can give me like real details. about fish refused to speak to her or see her what an asshole pretended to cry and hid She asked him questions.
So he was trying to hide and like they were trying to pull him in.
And as this is happening, She's yelling questions to him because she's like, you're going to fucking answer me.
Oh. So she asked him questions about the clothing that billing Billy was wearing and details.
And he wouldn't say it. He just wouldn't answer her.
He wouldn't answer her and after literal hours, like I think like two full hours of her trying to get him to talk to her.
She was just still, nothing happened, so she just left.
And she left saying he didn't do it. Wow.
I'm not convinced. And honestly, good for her.
Good for her. Yeah, she doesn't need to think about... this man doing what he did to other children to her child.
Because she said all she wants to believe is that it was a grieving mother. who lost a child and has been bringing Billy up in a happy home. okay that's what she's like that's what i believe and it's like then she believes that that's what she she needed to believe because he's going he's going to the chair anyways for something else so like Yep.
If she wants to believe that, like, I think that's better for her.
No. January 16th, 1936, he had a T-bone steak for lunch with the bone taken out.
Who gives him a fucking steak? This was his last meal.
I hate that. A roasted chicken with no bones for dinner.
And 11.06 PM, he was brought to the quote unquote dance hall, what the prisoners called the death chamber.
And he was dead in the electric chair by 1109 p.m.
I also... sorry go ahead he was the oldest man to ever be executed at sing sing prison wow yeah I also love that like the day they're going to kill him, they're like, oh, take the bones out.
Yeah, they're like, oh, we don't want him to hurt himself.
At this point, it literally doesn't matter.
But honestly, it gives him pleasure to hurt himself.
So I think they were like, we don't want you to have that. have that last pleasure but i love that it took that long i know i'm to realize like the bullshit don't give them bones we should remove those Now, apparently people were talking and authorities were actually concerned that the needles he had inside of him might interfere with the electrocution.
Yeah. But it didn't. Oh, okay. There were rumors that said it did and there's like lore that's like, oh, it sparked and it was crazy.
Robert Elliot, who was the official executioner for the state of New York, LOL, imagine getting that title.
Like, imagine just being like, what do you do for work?
I'm the official executioner of the state of New York. would never be fucked with.
That's horrifying. You're basically the enforcer.
You're Frankie the enforcer. There you go.
He had said all along that he was confident it was not going to interfere with the process.
And afterwards, he was like, it did not... interview with the process like well you have to think too they were like so like if you see the x-rays they're thin like Yeah, and they were deeply in there.
A lot of them were corroded. And they're covered in tissue.
I was going to say. One of those things that everyone's like, he has metal inside of him.
It's going to go crazy. Right. Now, I just want to end on this one little quick thing that he said.
He told a story, Albert Fish. about when he was in the orphanage, He remembered a bunch of boys tying this horse they had found, a wild horse, to a fence.
Jesus Christ. And he said they and like just a quick little like trigger warning.
This is probably a fake story. But it's a hurting an animal situation, so... skip um but he and it's quick but he said that they lit the horse's tail on fire and then cut the rope so that the horse ran away.
And he said, So the horse ran, but, like, they could never run away from the fire.
It was on his... And he said, quote, that horse, that's me.
That's the man of passion. The fire chases you and catches you. and then it's in your blood.
And after that, it's the fire that has control, not the man.
Blame the fire of passion for what Albert H. Fish has done.
No. That's what he thought about himself.
And also, wait, I thought it was religion.
Yeah. Wait, it's the fire of passion now?
Well, is the fire of passion like almost kind of like also a religious thing?
Well, that's I'm like, what is it? Explain.
I think he just wanted to be like, one more bullshit before I go.
Yeah. It's just a wild... It's also such a sad tale.
So that is the story of Hamilton Fish. Dude.
And I'm done. Dude. Never to return. Should we go like.
Until I start looking into who else he killed in other states because I think I'm gonna do that but oh my god i'm done what do we do next like his life we need to do We're going to do a Listener Tales next, I think.
Oh, fuck yeah, we are. Your listener tells next, and then me personally, I'm doing some fucking... spooky phenomenon or some haunted castle somewhere.
That's, that's where I'm going. I have a rough one that I have ready for probably next week.
Yeah, we'll probably do Listener Tales, maybe a spooky, and then maybe we'll get to Ashes.
We'll give you a little bit of a... A little reprieve there.
A little breather. I started my research on this before you started Albert Fish.
And then I was like, ooh. Gotta finish this case because it's really intriguing, but we might need to delay that.
Yeah, don't worry. We're just going to give you a little bit of a palate cleanser in between.
Yeah. But if you, I mean, if this story was something you were like, holy shit, I definitely recommend you read Especially Deranged.
But also I know that I didn't really listen to any other podcast about Albert Fish because I never wanted to.
Yeah. The only one I did listen to a long time ago was Albert Fish when last podcast on the left of And a lot of people were mentioning their theories on some stuff.
I really highly recommend going and listening to their series because I'm sure they have like a different theory on certain things and Marcus is just such a good fucking researcher and storyteller that I think you should definitely go listen to them.
Not that they need my like... Not that they're dying for me to be like, go listen to them.
Give them numbers. No, but we really like them.
But we just really liked them. They were like one of my first, uh, first like podcasts, like true crime podcasts.
You showed them to me and you brought me to the live show.
I did. I brought you to the live show. We sat up in the nosebleeds.
It was fun. I got vertigo. You did. You got vertigo from being so high.
Yeah. But we love them. And we just wanted to shout them out.
Yeah, we do. We think they're awesome. But I really, they're the ones that I would point you to because I've never listened to anyone on And they just do like such a fucking deep dive on their cases.
They did a great job. So definitely go do that.
Read the book. thank you for hanging in and then sage yourself yeah and thank you for hanging in for four parts because I know I originally was like, this is going to be like two parts.
You're welcome. It's going to be three parts.
No, it's going to be four parts. I just couldn't stop.
Can't stop. All right. can't stop but thank you for being here with us and thank you for being here today thank you and we hope you keep listening Keep it weird.
I'm not going to tell you. Yeah, don't do it.
No, dude, you did a really good job. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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