Episode 272: The Villisca Axe Murders Part 2 | Morbid

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Hey weirdos, I'm Alayna. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.

Whoop whoo. 🎵 Thank you. Here we are.

Hello there, friends and pals across the nation.

All of you. All you ghouls. What's up? What's good, ghouls?

So before we jump into our case today, which is the second part of the Villisca axe murders...

Which could have been the second part of about 16 if I was allowed to keep going, but I just I had to stop myself.

I came over the other morning and Alina just literally had like paper shuffled in front of her.

She's like, this 10 parts if I wanted to.

I could keep going. And her eye is just twitching.

I'm like, don't. Please, please don't. Because you know what?

Someday I do want to make this like its own podcast.

Well, that's why I said don't. So you know what?

Someday I'll do it. But for now, I'll give you what I got.

But before we get to that, there's something...

Pretty crazy true crime news that came out that blew my mind a little bit.

So... I don't know. We have not covered this case.

I don't know if we will cover this case because it involves a child and you know how I feel about that.

But it's a very big case. I'm sure most people in true crime have heard of it.

It's the case of the killer is Eric Smith.

He was 13 when he killed a four-year-old Derek Robbie.

Mm-hmm. He did this, when was it? What year was it?

It was in 1994. It was horrific. Derek was four.

He was sexually abused afterwards. It was a horrific crime.

Yeah. Horrific. To say the least. And obviously Eric Smith has been in prison.

He's now 41 years old. He's gone in front of the parole board, I think, 11 times and been denied each time.

He's being released. Yikes. He's going to be, he could be released on November 17th.

I wonder what changed their mind the 12th time.

Yeah, I'm curious. I kind of want to know what everybody else thinks, too, because I am very curious.

Conflicted and apprehensive. Of course, he was a child.

When that happened, I would like to think that he is a different human being now at 41 years old.

He has a clear disciplinary record in prison.

Sometimes that can indicate that there's growth there.

But on the other side of that... This is a horrific crime.

And also, Derek's parents... are horrified and obviously have been fighting to keep him in prison, which I'm fully on their side with.

Yeah. It's a tough one because it brings forth that whole child offender thing.

Right. are you that same person I am not the same person at 13 it's a heavy debate But I also didn't murder someone at 13, which is a totally different... personality issue there exactly so it's like it's a very strange subject, I've seen so many different takes on it and I'm just curious to see how everybody else feels about it.

I'm very apprehensive and I'm very conflicted.

I can say I have five-year-olds and a two-year-old and...

I personally would be like, you should stay in there.

Yeah, I don't really feel that conflicted about where I'm at right now.

I'm conflicted because there is that piece where... do children deserve to be in prison for the rest of their lives when they commit a crime when they're a minor?

That's a huge issue in true crime. Of course it is.

I think it depends on a lot of factors. It's not black and white.

Yeah, exactly. And I think you have to look at it case by case.

And I think if you're capable of murdering a four-year-old, no matter what age you are, that's like a little scary.

Yeah, I mean, to say the very least. Well, it's like the Maddie Clifton case.

Mm-hmm. Joshua Phillips was super young when that happened and that was one of those things too that now he's trying to convince people that he's changed and and the laws got changed saying that you couldn't be sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole when you're a minor.

And it's been a huge bone of contention.

Nobody can agree on it, but it's... It's so weird because you'll read certain things and you research about it and you look at the psychology of it.

You look at the real... basic scientific facts of the human brain at different points of development.

Specifically the fact that like your frontal lobe is not developed.

So I can see that side of it. And that's the part where you look at it and you say, yeah, like...

Children in prison for the rest of their lives does seem crazy.

Of course. But then when you look at the crime itself, you're like...

I want you to be in prison for the rest of your life.

You know, it's like you cannot, at least me, I shouldn't say everybody.

I get very conflicted and very like, I don't know where to, because I can literally see both sides.

I can stand on both sides. I can stand on the side of no children who are minors should not be in prison for the rest of their lives.

But then I can sit on the other side and go, But look at the James Bulger case.

I want them to be in prison forever. And it's funny that you say that, but it's not funny.

Interesting that you say that because that's one of the first things I thought about.

Yeah, it's a very, it's one of those topics I don't think I will ever forget.

It's like the death penalty. Yeah. Honestly, I think it's totally...

100% worse of a confliction. Yeah. Because the death penalty, at least we're talking about adults, which...

Oh, yeah. No, I just mean in the way that it's not black and white, like you were saying.

But I think this is even more gray. I think there's just so much... in this because it involves children on a hundred different levels.

It's like children as victims and children as offenders.

And as offenders. Who then it's just a lot.

So when I saw that that was happening, my first of all, my heart immediately thought of Derek's parents.

I know. And like aches for them. But then I also was like, wow, what do people think of this?

I just gotta know. Well... Let us know what you think.

So let us know what you think of it. I'm very interested.

Sad. It is. It's really... The whole thing is sad.

It's like there's no... happy ending here no at all like there's no silver lining here at all right because no matter what their child is gone And that's horrible.

And it's one of those things where now, you know, he gets out and he gets to live a life and Derek doesn't.

So it's like... it's tough. It's tough to have any kind of feeling of like, positivity in this case yeah exactly but you know all you can hope is that He has been rehabilitated.

Well, and I mean, that is supposed to be like the entire point of the justice system.

Of course. So. Yeah, so I guess we'll see.

But let us know what you think, because I'm very conflicted on the whole thing.

So I love hearing other people's opinions about it.

Yeah. Now that we've talked about that like crazy thing, I don't think there's anything else I really wanted to touch upon, but.

I think we're just going to dive right back into Villisca.

Let's go. And I've been having weird dreams about axe murders.

I bet. Because this episode, we're going to talk about a few more axe murders.

So I feel like I've just... My whole life has just been enveloped in axe murder and it's been a trip.

Yeah, I mean, I could see that absolutely being a trip.

Yeah, I've had some sleep paralysis moments where I've woken up a couple of nights and been like, is that an ex-murder? in my room or nah?

Or nah. And it's been nah. It's been a while and I'm here to tell you about it today.

Yeah, now I can talk to you about it. But when we ended on part one, we were talking about the... suspect that i immediately like when i first started researching this case was like oh he did it Like, that's totally him.

And it was reverend or preacher, he called himself Reverend George Jacqueline Kelly.

Yeah, and that's the thing. Like, when we ended and you said all the stuff you did about him, I was like, okay, so he did it.

Yeah. So, like... So now convince me otherwise.

Well, and then when we ended, it came out that he recanted his confession and claimed police brutality. which is 100% something that probably happened.

Happens a lot. Does it say that it's a false confession?

Not necessarily, but it was definitely coerced.

And so it definitely could have been false because...

As we've seen in the first one that pops into my mind is the West Memphis Three.

Mm hmm. People will admit to things that you think you would never, ever admit to under duress.

Yeah, the Galveston 11. Yeah. You will admit to it.

It's like if somebody's pushing your psychological and physical boundaries to the ends of the earth.

Right. And especially in cases where somebody is not completely... psychologically or intellectually on the same level as their interrogators.

Well, it's funny that you say that because in the West Memphis three that happened, and with the Galveston 11, it was like, they really played on yeah they played on the fact that they could kind of manipulate someone who wasn't exactly on their level which is really shitty intellectually and So this could have happened here because a lot of people said that Kelly was mentally ill in some way, shape, or form.

Yeah. We obviously don't have solid proof of that.

He's never been diagnosed. This was 1912, so it's just people being like, he acted in a way that made me think that.

So we'll see. But he was tried twice and acquitted twice.

I know, and that is crazy that like two juries couldn't decide.

And you said it was like one person, right?

The first one was a hung jury. There was only one person that wanted to.

Charge, which is to convict him. And so it ended up hung.

They tried him again and it was a full acquittal.

Wow. So that's why we're going to come to part two.

Okay. I would like to amend something quickly because I said in part one that it was believed by a lot of researchers that Joe Moore was the only one hit with the sharp side of the axe first.

Everybody else was hit with the blunt side of the axe with that first one and then chopped with the sharp side.

But no. I found a grand jury testimony later that was like hidden in the archive somewhere that said, Sarah Moore was actually the only one hit with the sharp side of the ax first. oh okay which to me suddenly brings this whole other like Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second.

Right. Because it made it seem like Joe was the one getting the hard one first.

The anger. was someone mad at Sarah or was someone which there's going to be a Like what people have like basically termed, you know, his mistress.

We're going to find out. He was not exactly.

Faithful. I don't even think I knew that part of this case, actually.

Yeah, this is like a whole... We're gonna get into it, so don't worry, like, right now, but... like right now but it kind of brings that's what brought people like really into that theory that like a mistress was involved, and maybe they were going after Sarah first, and...

Like she didn't do it, but maybe somebody was paid to do it.

You know, like there's so many theories involved.

I don't think that's the case, but it's very salacious and like people talk about it all the time.

And it is interesting that Sarah was hit with the sharp side, because... really all it takes is a blunt side of an axe to the head to crack a skull open.

Yeah, we were saying that last time. You're good with that.

So it's weird that she was hit sharply first, but it looks like Joe was hit before her.

So. Yeah, I don't know. I was just trying to think of a reason that would happen.

I couldn't really think of one. Every time something comes out that you're like, what?

Then you're like, but what the fuck does that mean?

That doesn't mean anything. I was actually going to say it.

I was like maybe she like woke up or something but then I was like but the blunt side of the ex also would Exactly.

It just doesn't make sense. But yeah, I had to put that out there because...

That's very interesting that a grand jury testimony did say that she was hit with the only one.

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Now let's get into the rest. We have one more really big suspect.

That remains a suspect to this day. Like, people still think that he did it.

Okay. Frank Jones. Now, he was definitely the biggest suspect aside from Reverend Kelly there, like Creeper Kelly.

Sure. He was a local businessman, and he was probably the most successful business guy in town.

Like, he was... He was a banker. He also owned a business in the same business as Josiah Moore. selling farm equipment and like machinery and such.

But he also had his own car dealership and was a state senator.

How did he manage all of this? Because you know what?

Because when I saw a car dealership, I was like, damn, look at you.

But then I was like, wait a second. Cars were like, there was like three in a town at that point.

Like three people had cars. cars at that point so it's like it wasn't this massive thing i know because i'm literally picturing like a toyota dealership exactly like that thing in front of it like dancing yeah the wacky inflatable iron man in 1912

Honestly, at this point, I think maybe it was his like no good son, Albert, who was the wacky inflatable arm man outside of the thing.

Oh man, the OG wacky. inflatable arm man pretty much the organic one um but what's crazy was he was in fact Joe Moore's employer for about seven years.

He was his like right hand man. I know where we're going.

So Frank like relied on him, taught him everything he knew.

And Joe ended up leaving in 1907, leaving the business, which like happens.

You know, he learned all he wanted to learn and he wanted to open up his own shit.

Sure. But when he left, he took some of the biggest accounts with him.

We talked about it in part one. He took that John Deere account.

I wanted to say it so badly. I wanted to be like, Eddie took that John Deere account.

But I was like, I got to let her say it.

He took that John Deere account and that is a big, the biggest account.

I'm sure even today, if somebody took the John Deere account, people would be like, damn it.

Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. And according to The Man from the Train by Bill James, which...

I can't say it enough. Go buy that book.

I'm not kidding you. I'm gonna link it. You gotta buy this book.

It'll... just, you won't stop. And it's like 400 and something pages long too, and you will not stop.

You will just blow through those. Just keeps coming and it just keeps coming and it just keeps coming.

So that John Deere account that he took, that was...

No good. And in the book He talks about how, you know, this essentially made him his business nemesis at that point because he opened up the same business.

And took one of them. took the biggest account.

So everybody's starting to move to that one.

It was just a bad blood right away. Because if he had left and maybe not taken that account, I don't know if it would have been as bitter as it was.

But taking that account, I think, was like the nail in the coffin.

It's like Rich Hilton and Mauricio. that's exactly what I was thinking when I read this.

I was like, wow, all I can think of is Mauricio.

Yeah, me too. that's all i can i can convert anything back to bravo you sure can anything you sure can In the book, The Man from the Train as well, they say that Frank Jones was a very upstanding citizen.

He was, especially by the standards of the time period, he didn't drink.

He didn't swear. He was a church-going man in the Methodist persuasion, if you will.

Persuade. According to the book, the book, Villisca by.

I forgot to write down the author and I wrote, who wrote that?

I always do that. All right, I broke real quick and I checked and it's Roy Marshall.

I am so remiss for forgetting that because he's like a very big, like...

He's the person for this. Like, he's one of the people that are, like, huge experts on this case.

So, Roy, I'm terribly sorry. Roy! But I have so many books in my thing right now.

I'll do that when I write my quick outline.

I'll be like, more on this. And sometimes I'm like, oh, fuck.

You're like, oh, I didn't write more on this.

And then I go to say it and I'm like, nope, nope.

But either way, Villisca by Roy Marshall.

Again, I'll link all of these books so you'll be able to see where they get them.

But another great book. on this case how many books did you read on this case uh at least four iconic A literary icon in her own right.

Literally fascinating. And then I got so entranced into many blogs, which let me tell you, a lot of people like we scoff at blogs a lot. but like and like people do but these like historians and people who research these kind of things and make entire blueprints blogs about them oh yeah and get like real information and have like expertise in an area They can be some of the best things to find.

Because you look and they cite their sources.

Yeah, they all have their little bibliography.

They tell you when it's an opinion and when it's not.

There's a couple of blogs about this case that are Truly amazingly done.

Specifically, whenever I research haunted cases, I run into a lot of really great blogs.

Yeah. I mean, you got to be careful. You got to make sure you're looking at one that is reputable in any way.

Yeah, and you have to make sure if their sources are listed, you go check everything.

But the Villisca blogs that I found are really great.

I'll link whatever I can because... They definitely deserve the views because they're awesome and great wealths of information.

But yeah, so speaking of Frank Jones, Roy Marshall in Villisca wrote that He actually led quite an impressive life.

He wrote legislature for the insurance practices that are still used today.

Oh, that's crazy. He helped form the Iowa Department of Transportation.

He was a school teacher at one point. He also sat on the State Board of Education.

He also happened to be a huge advocate for prison reform and conservation methods to produce less waste.

Huh. So, Like, that's pretty awesome. Like, all of that.

It's very philanthropic. Well, and unfortunately, no one really remembers him for this stuff, apparently.

Yeah. which if he's innocent is really sad because it's like yeah because his name is tied his name got Totally smeared after this.

And you'll see, it really took him down.

Now... You may be wondering, like, why is he such a huge suspect if he's such a great guy?

Because just the business rivalry thing does not at all indicate that you should murder an entire family, including children.

Like, none of that makes sense. No. You're not like, yeah, I see that.

No. But Joe Moore, so he started his computing business. they immediately became rivals I mean people said they would cross the street rather than even talk to each other like they hated each other that much oh wow And apparently back then it was like they crossed the street.

They did not. shake hands well and it's also like imagine how awkward that would be like if you were like walking past each other like i'd cross one of you just crosses the street like Yeah, it's the easiest way to go about it.

At least they weren't like fist fighting in public.

Right. But, again, is that cause to assume that he murdered or hired someone to murder him and his entire family and two strangers' children?

So far, no. In the dead of night, no. And sexually assaulted one of them, perhaps.

And I say, no, it's not. It's objectively not.

Like, it is not. That's not a motive. It's just not.

If it was just Joe Moore... Okay, business can get crazy, like people get crazy.

The fact that it's the whole family and house guests and a child.

The way it was done, the ritualistic manner in which it was done, the... the sexual assault of a child and the clear attention paid to Lena Stillinger None of that adds up.

No. Yeah. Absolutely not. There was a little more that added to the hostility between the two.

On top of all this, Joe Moore, like I said, was supposedly not exactly faithful to Sarah at the moment, he was apparently having a very torrid affair with Frank Jones's daughter-in-law.

Oh. Her name was Donna Bentley at the time Donna Jones.

Yes, the woman who was married to his son, Albert.

Yeah. Now Donna... I gotta say, she sounds like kind of a hot shit.

I'm gonna throw it out there. I think she's rad.

Like, I don't love that. obviously that's not cool that that was happening but like her herself I'm like wow you were really like living for the time Was she super young, too?

She was younger, and she actually lived till 1984.

Oh, okay, sister. And it would have been a trip to interview her. because I would just want to know about her life and about this whole situation.

I'd be like, please just tell me everything.

You should have interviewed her at negative one.

At negative one, I should have done it. So she was kind of known to have a lot of affairs.

She was married to Albert, but she was like, that's...

Was it? Do you know if it was like an arranged marriage situation?

It was not. But she married Albert Jones, obviously.

That's Frank's son. Yeah. He was kind of like a gross pig, according to every single source that I read. uh he was like just everybody literally describes him as like just useless in every way like he was just He was a rich kid.

He grew up a rich kid. He didn't feel like he had to really do anything.

He was also apparently just like really just not attractive in any way, shape or form.

Donna was beautiful and was known for her beauty.

Why did she marry? but he was also going to inherit the family business and the family fortune right along with it that'll do it so people think you know like maybe she was getting that paper and that was probably it.

Just secure the bag first. Work hard, play hard.

It kind of seems that way. But she was also very flirtatious.

Girls just want to have fun. She was saucy.

She was throwing big social events at her home.

She was pretty average in the social class things before she married Albert.

But after she married Albert, she was in high society now.

So she's a social climber. Exactly. And so she was throwing lavish parties. and she's flirting with men.

I would have fucking did the damn thing. back then.

I would have been such a social climber.

She's livid and she's hanging out with dudes that aren't her husband while her dude is out of town.

It's just... That's not okay in 1912. What's the girl's name in Gatsby?

Daisy. No, not Daisy, the other one. Oh, Myrtle.

Myrtle. Yeah, she's Myrtle. Yeah, she's very much Myrtle.

Even just hanging out with dudes while you were married back then was like a cardinal sin.

It was just not okay. You can't do that.

Straight to jail. Yeah. She was referred to as a high stepper, which is like being awesome.

What does that mean? I think it's just like you were sassy and just like going against everything.

A high stepper. I think it was basically being like a woman of questionable morals. you're like i aspire to be i just sounds funny But according to Smithsonian Magazine, she would arrange the meetings with her various forbidden lovers over the phone.

This was important because at the time you had to go through an operator to place a phone call.

So the operators, which were mostly young women, always knew what was up like they were the holders of the tea at that point like they They had jugs.

They had growlers of tea at all times. Do you know, could they continue to listen in after they connected?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, see, boom. Oh, yeah. I would have lived.

That was their Bravo back then. They were living their own Bravo.

They got all the tea. And the operators, of course, were gossiping about it.

And they were always saying that she was...

She was always calling or receiving calls from various men.

And then the one that was most often heard was Josiah Moore.

And they were, they were calls to arrange meetings and like, And it would be something like she would call and say, it's okay to come over now.

Yeah. Scandalous. Like so scandalous. I think we're alone now.

And also, I gotta put it out there, Josiah Moore was hot.

I get it. I get it. I understand. You're like, so I just want to get something off my chest.

Josiah Moore, a daddy. Like, I've seen like one picture of him, but like... for the time period i was like i get it i need to look like i get it like i would have been into him I feel it.

I'm going to find out. I'm going to fuck around and find out.

He's definitely, you're going to be like, yeah, like that makes sense for you.

Josiah Moore. But yeah, so, and she was very pretty.

It was just, they made sense. It worked.

They really did. Now, obviously, this is bad, though.

As fun as it is to talk about... See? See?

Oh. Oh. See? I'm telling you. Yeah. I was like, oh.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, Google Images. Josiah.

Okay. but like married so but very married yes but but like very good looking man Moving on, moving on, moving on.

Moving on. obviously this whole thing is bad like morally ethically fiscally emotionally like Metaphorically, I don't know.

It's all bad. Symbolically. But it's really bad too.

Because it makes the Jones family look bad.

Yeah. if Josiah Moore is having an affair with his son's and his sons get like set to take over the family business.

They're supposed to be this powerful family.

It just doesn't work. Tarnishes the name.

Doesn't look good. This is very like Rory marrying into Logan's family.

Exactly. And it's like his... And on top of it, they're bitter business rivals.

So now his... arch nemesis in business is sleeping with his daughter-in-law.

Like, that is a bad look. Like so 1912, though.

Yeah, very 1912. So this is where the motives that people dig up are starting to come in where people can start to come up with more like fleshy motives like forgive that choice of words, but the motives that make more sense, which are more, you know, robust.

But here's the rub because it's like, okay, so Frank Jones.

Cool. Okay. So he did it now. But he was 57 in 1912.

Right. highly unlikely that he was going to swing an axe that hard and that many times the way the killer did.

And I still don't think he would have assaulted Lena.

Yeah, I don't think he would kill all the children.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. That whole part doesn't fit.

No, that's a very specific part of that whole process.

And even Sarah, why would he kill Sarah?

Yeah, none of it... He would just go after Joe.

Right. I would think. And even then, it's like... far-fetched a bit.

I don't know. So what people came up with was they think Albert and Frank hired someone to kill Joe Moore in his family okay it's like a punishment your whole family dies because of your indiscretions kind of thing Okay.

Which has happened before. Like if you're going to kill someone or hire someone to kill someone for you, you're pretty fucked up in the head.

So it's like, you're not going to, you would think that way.

Well, and then I suppose they would still probably get some kind of inheritance if they were still alive.

That would make them angry. That's true. so and because at first I was like but like really why I mean to me it's still not a great motive but honestly like what is really For real.

But people have killed over stupider shit.

Accurate. So this is when shit got even crazier.

So a man named James Wilkerson enters the picture.

He was a private detective who worked with the Burns Detective Agency.

Now, at the time, they were in need of more detectives outside of Iowa to deal with this because they weren't equipped to handle this kind of large massacre.

So when stuff like this happened at this time period, private detective agencies and security agencies would be ascending onto the scene.

Because they would try to be the ones to crack the case.

They could make money off of it. A lot of times it was like a lot of con men coming in trying to just feed off of this horrible tragedy that happened.

Right. But... It was kind of shady at times.

So James Wilkerson was with the Burns Detective Agency and he showed up.

And he immediately floats the theory that Frank Jones was the guy and that Jones had paid someone else to do it for him.

He was like, I know this is it. And people were already kind of talking about that.

It was a rumor. And he went with his nose to the grindstone building the case for two years.

Wow. Yeah. And then it took another two years for it even to come into fruition.

So in 1916, during the Republican election, which Frank Jones was going to be going for reelection, He dropped the bomb of who he thought did the deed at Jones's direction.

Do you think it was like a political? Well, it definitely was part of it because they sent around flyers to potential voters with the guy's like the potential the hitman's face on it.

He was like a prisoner at the time. And I'll talk about him in a minute.

And they were saying, like, do you want to reelect someone who would hire this man to kill an entire family?

Of course, people are like, well, when you put it that way, no, I don't.

Like, that's not something I want to do.

But he had a name for the hitman. So first, just putting this out of the way, it did cause him to lose the re-election.

Yeah, like that's not cool. It's a pretty serious thing to, an allegation to throw at someone.

Right, if you didn't do it. But Wilkerson said the guy who actually did it at Jones's push was a man named William Mansfield.

And Mansfield was a known cocaine addict.

Everything says that he was like, all of the things I read were like, cocaine he was big into cocaine and i'm like well you probably would be to do that i was gonna say i mean like that aggression i was gonna say aggression and like just like having like the amount of energy and like strength and like all that that it would take to pull that massacre off.

I mean, like, Yeah, I get why they keep saying cocaine was part of this.

He was also just a very unpredictable and violent person anyways, so cocaine probably didn't help that.

He was also the prime suspect in the 1914 murders of his wife, her parents, and his child in Illinois.

So another mass murder. Oh, and they were murdered by an axe.

Oh, okay. Now, let me, because that sounds like, but at the time. axes were just laying about.

So I feel like it was just like one of the like axe murders were a thing at this time because that's The closest, like everyone had an ex.

Like a lot though? Well, If you read The Man from the Train, you will learn that there's many axe murders that happened during this time period.

All right. And I encourage you to read it.

I will talk about more. And by the end of it... I feel like you should have a handlebar mustache.

I feel like I'm... At the end of that sentence.

I'm just... You should read about it. Or just put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I should. I'm saying. And after we go through this, you're going to be like, oh.

That's a lot of axe murdering that happened at that point.

All right. But, you know, it's something to think about.

That's all I'm saying. I'm thinking about it.

I'm thinking about it. Not axe murdering, just what you said.

Wilkerson also believed that Mansfield was responsible for more killings that were similar to the Villisca murders at the time.

Those are the ones we're going to talk about.

Spoiler alert, no. He did not, in my opinion, do any of the other ones.

I think he's probably responsible for his family, for sure. think that happened okay i don't think he's a serial killer in the sense of the other ones okay Wilkerson actually convinced a grand jury to investigate these claims finally.

And it was in 1916 that he finally convinced them to.

And they did. And they did it for like a week.

They convened. They looked over everything.

They talked to Mansfield. After that week, he was freed.

Wow. They were not convinced. They discovered that on the evening of the Moore murders, he was working in Illinois and there were payroll records to prove this.

So we had an alibi. So Mansfield has an alibi.

But to be honest, if I'm going to play both sides here.

Kind of a flimsy one because those records probably weren't like airtight.

They probably weren't that hard to fake at the time.

Yeah. It's probably literally just like a card that says like a date in like ink.

You were at work. It's just like Illinois.

Clocked in. But who knows? Again, it could go either way.

Sure. It's an alibi. He has proof. whether it's right or not.

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The sale ends 831. Don't miss it. So Wilkerson obviously was pissed and not convinced that he was innocent or Frank Jones was innocent.

He held rallies to get people to start pressuring the grand jury to start to look at the case again.

He talked a lot of shit. about Frank Jones and Mansfield.

Basically just kept accusing them publicly of the murders, like would not let up.

That'll do it. And he also kept claiming that Frank Jones had used his political influence and persuasions to get Mansfield fired. freed by that jury.

Like he was saying like, he's a politician.

He has tons of connects. He got that jury to let him off.

Like this wasn't real. And he was saying he's going to keep buying people off to get out of this.

And like, are you really going to let him get away which like if i mean that's really not that far-fetched it's not it's not and but well jones and mansfield didn't love this obviously And in September of 1916, Jones launched a suit to get Wilkerson on charges of slander.

Yeah. He was like, if you're going to keep talking shit...

Find out, yeah. So this trial, basically, you know, what it turned into was...

Wilkerson trying to prove that it's not slander because I'm telling the truth.

Right. So the only way that he could do that was to basically prove murder, so it turned into kind of a murder trial against Frank Jones and Mansfield.

Right. But like not. It was like still a slander trial.

It was weird. So suddenly a lot of witnesses and shit are being called to try to prove that Wilkerson was saying the truth and not slander.

So they brought in Alice Willard. who was the witness we all would want to see on court TV.

I mean, she was just like... She came in with a mug and she was ready to just spill it all over every Everybody's got tea.

So much tea. So she lives like a block away from the Moors.

And she said two days before the murders, she saw strange men walking around their home.

And then late that same evening... She was walking with someone and saw five men meet up.

And she hid in the bushes with this person.

She doesn't exactly explain why she hid from these five men and didn't just keep walking.

Well, maybe she was scared of them. You know, here we are.

So she said one of those men she was sure was Frank Jones.

And she knows that she heard Frank Jones say, quote, Get Joe first and the rest will be easy.

Oh. She was kind of wild though. Sounds like it. the person she said she was with that day so she claimed she was with this like salesman named ed something and ed was like nah No.

Well, she was like, Ed died last year. And they were like, oh, OK, we'll look up the records.

Ed never existed. So that's not a real person.

So the whole story of like, I saw these five men and then I like ran into the book.

That's like a lot. I think she might just be a woman of questionable morals herself.

Yeah, she's a high stepper. She's a high stepper. in a totally different way.

She's a medium stepper. But you know what?

Thanks for playing, Alice. Thanks for playing.

Thanks for the vibes. He was found not guilty and just had to pay a fine.

So boom, done. Okay. But a lot of people were not convinced that he was innocent of this whole thing yet, Frank.

He was... Nobody thought, in the court of law, no one thought he was a murderer.

Right. I mean, once you plant the seed of like, this guy might be a murderer.

You can't put the toothpaste. back in the tube exactly it's just like lizzie borden like some people don't think she did it but like she spent the rest of her whole life after she was proven innocent she was torment She was never going to shake that.

Right. You're never going to shake it. It's just there.

Or even Marian Stembridge. Exactly. I just pulled that one.

Thank you. Wow. Yeah, like whoosh. Get it.

I was going to say, I just pulled that one right out of my, and made a motion of me pulling it out of my ear.

Yep, she sure did. So, I don't know. So she pulled it from her ear, everybody.

I just pulled that one right out of my ear.

I'm glad it was living there because I was like, wow, good job.

Thank you. No, but people still are not convinced of his innocence, even today, which is kind of crazy to me because...

According to the man from the train. Read it again.

Hey, do you like that book? Love that book.

I just love to like, I love to promote authors.

I know, but I always beat people over the head with it.

But I'll just continue to do that because I love authors.

And they did so much work for it. I'm like, yeah, writing a book is really difficult.

And especially as I've been told. And especially one like this, where he came up, when you read it, and we'll only talk about a few of the cases he went over, but he comes, I mean, dozens of cases.

Well, in nonfiction, writing about factual events, I can't even imagine.

You've got to be really on point with it.

But according to the man from the train, Wilkerson was caught doing some shady shit later.

So Wilkerson, the private detective from that agency, I don't think so with him.

Well, you said that there was like money involved and stuff.

There was always money involved. So obviously it's financially motivated.

He also proved to be like a bullshitting asshole later.

So in 1915, so a year before all this like went to... trial and everything, a school teacher named Nellie Byers was unfortunately raped and murdered in Kansas.

Everyone knew at the time that it was definitely a guy named Archibald Sweet.

He was known as an asshole, a convicted felon.

Those two are not mutually exclusive. It's not the same thing.

He was both of those things, a convicted felon and an asshole.

He was someone who had already developed a history of violence against women, so he was all of those things.

He was staying in a home very near to her and near to the scene and And he was alone that night that it happened.

He was staying with someone, but no one was in the house.

Now, Nellie also had told people she was scared of this guy and had avoided him on many occasions.

There was physical evidence to tie him to the crime.

He did it. Yeah. Period. It was just like everybody knew.

They really wanted to get this guy and they didn't want to make any slip ups.

So they do this, we see this in cases now too.

So the county attorney asked the Burns Detective Agency to help gather some more evidence just to really lock that case up so he couldn't wiggle out of their grasp.

So they put Wilkerson on it and they put him on there to gather more evidence.

We got to convict this guy easily. He was obsessed with whether there was a reward or not when he came into town.

Yeah. And they were like, no, there's not a reward because we know the guy who did it.

He's already like, we're following him. And maybe you could just do this out of the fucking kindness of your heart.

And like maybe just to honor this victim that went through like you asshole.

Right. So then he went on a crusade when they were like, no, there's no reward because he definitely did it.

We just want to make sure we have all the evidence we need to convict.

That's all. So then Wilkerson went on a crusade to free him. and was acting convinced that he didn't do it he said there was another man who did it they named him And they said they needed to pursue this guy.

So they were like, let's pursue this guy and let's set up a reward fund.

So he's in it for the moolah. And Byrne's agency actually was fired off of this case because of Wilkerson.

Of course. I would do the same thing. And Sweet, Archibald Sweet, was convicted of rape and murder.

Yeah. They had evidence. Well, and it gets worse.

In 1917, after Wilkerson went through that whole slander trial with...

Jones and Mansfield, Sweet actually testified that Wilkerson actually approached him, Archibald Sweet, the man who was convicted.

He said Wilkerson actually approached him and asked him to work together to frame someone else for the murder.

What the fuck? So that they could get the reward money.

Yeah. He signed an affidavit to this effect saying that this happened.

Wow. Obviously, he's a rapist and a murderer.

I don't know if we can take his total away.

But what does he even have to gain from that?

But he has nothing to gain. That's the thing.

He has nothing to gain and nothing to... to profit from that right that's so fucked so like jude wilkerson there james wilkerson i'm I don't exactly trust his shenanigans.

I don't at all. That's so shitty. I hate that people like that exist. horrific you're just a con artist and you're just like and you're a con artist in a way where it's like life or death because you're trying to free like Literally, like you're not trying to free innocent people and trying to make the world a better place by not having innocent people in jail.

You're trying to free people just so you get money out of them.

And put innocent people in Exactly. What the fuck?

That's the worst you can be. That's like a crime in and of itself.

So unfortunately, even despite all of this, even knowing James Wilkerson is no one to be trusting with this case.

Frank Jones is still known as a chief suspect in this case.

But the other suspect that I think is just like interesting because We mentioned him briefly in the first part.

I don't think I mentioned his name, but...

He was the one who took the piece of skull from the crime scene.

Remember I told you he? His name is Bert McCall.

He happens to also be one of those five men that Alice said she saw that day.

She said Bert McCall was one of those five men.

Mm-hmm. He was an unsavory character. He was a drinker, a gambler, you know, kind of like an outcast in the town.

Yeah, and he was just like aggressive. He just like wasn't like super friendly.

He managed a pool hall, which at the time I think you were also like... saucy if you manage to pool hall.

And they had like a car service. So he was attempting to get into business with Frank Jones. and Albert Jones, because remember, they own a car dealership.

He was out of town the morning of the murders.

And when they were discovered, I mean, and when he heard of them, he came like flying back into Villisca.

And that's when he tried immediately to get into the crime scene.

So he was like one of the first people to be like, let me in there.

Weird. Burt was turned away several times and finally got belligerent and threatening and used a connection to...

They had like a National Guard kind of service in Iowa.

It's like the very like... you know, infantile National Guard.

The commander of this was a guy named Commander Casey. he was friends with Burt McCall.

So Burt went right to Commander Casey use that connection because he also happened to be his drinking buddy boom and Commander Casey let him in to see the kissing.

Aw, Commander Casey. CC. What the fuck, man?

Commander Casey. Later, only a few months after the murders, he put a chunk of skull on display in his pool hall.

It still had hair and flesh attached to it, and he said it was Josiah Moore's that he took from the scene that day.

And they do believe it was authentic. Why would you do that?

Now I read, so he of course became one of the people Because it's weird.

Talked about as a suspect. There's really nothing else to connect.

In what motive? I think he's just gross.

Yeah. And he's just like... a not kind of an asshole guy, that's all.

I think Alice might have just put him in that grouping of five men because he was known to associate with Frank Jones and Albert Jones through business with all that.

So Putting them together would make sense.

They were probably, you know, he seems like he was kind of just like a... like i said a drinker a gambler a fighter like people just make sense to put them there So get rid of Bert McCall.

Goodbye. He's just a D-bag. He's just Bert.

Now, I read a brilliant paper, which again, I will link.

It's like a thesis paper by a woman named Beth Klingensmith.

And she wrote the 1910s Axe Murders, An Overview of the Crimes, and the McLaury Theory.

So it dives into the theory that one man was behind all of the axe murders, or most of the axe murders of this time period in the Midwest.

Department of Justice Special Agent M.W.

McClary floated the idea. that at least six crimes, at least, six crimes and 15 murders in total were linked.

Oh, wow. So, yes, there were a lot of axe murders back then.

There were. And in The Man from the Train, he adds another 20. into that, I think.

So it's intense. So I want to go over some of these and talk about why they may be connected. especially from Beth's point of view and also from Bill James from that book.

His eyes, both are really compelling and both are well worth it. the read I'm going to link Beth's paper to.

It's like 30 plus pages, I think. It's like fascinating.

The theory states that a man named Henry Lee Moore was actually the serial killer.

And no, he was not related to the Veliscamores, just a weird coincidence and a pretty common last name.

Now, I don't think he is the serial killer, but... who committed all the axe murders or Villisca, but I think he killed... He was definitely... part of one of these axe murders.

I think the rest were possibly someone else.

So I'm going to go over his crime, and then I'll go with what Bill James from the... man from the train things like his ideas of what those are and we'll talk about like how they're connected and everything and you'll see like why it makes sense that This Henry Lee Moore definitely killed, so he killed his own family.

That seemed to happen a lot. I was going to say, this is a different story.

This is a different guy who killed his own family.

In this one, he killed his mother and his grandmother.

And I think he did that for sure. But these other ones, I think, were the same person that was the killer in Villisca.

Okay, so I think they're different from Henry Lee Moore, but I'll talk about his...

Now, Henry Lee Moore was convicted of murdering Mary J. Wilson and her daughter Georgia Moore in Columba, Columba.

Columbia, Missouri, December 17, 1912. Mary was his grandmother and Georgia was his mother. he had told police that on December 17th he arrived in town from Moberly where he lived and to visit his mom and grandmother, something about like, you know, they were gonna go over like money or something.

He said when he got to the home, it was dark and quiet.

He opened the back door and he found them both dead.

They had both been hit by an axe, and that axe was found nearby. pretty quickly decided Henry was the guy.

He was already super violent historically.

His story was kind of bullshit. He had arrived the evening before.

He had not arrived that morning, and he had stayed in a hotel under a fake name.

Yeah, so there you go. He had blood on his clothing as well.

Yeah. He also lied about literally everything else in his life.

That seemed to be his thing. He was like a pathological liar.

During his trial, they found that he was also pen pals with a lot of women and young girls.

Like he was like a very big womanizer. And he mentioned to several of them that he would be inheriting his mother's home soon.

How'd you know that? Yeah. He got life in prison and later admitted to the crimes.

He said he did it because he wanted that. house and the property wow so that's a pretty solid like here i did it there's the right Now, it makes sense he did these murders, but like I said, I don't think he's the guy that did the rest.

There isn't any similarity aside from the axe here, really.

And there's just like, again, just a sign of the times at this point.

Also just like a very different motive. Yeah, it's like farmers, axes, crimes of convenience.

But yeah, it has motive. Like a pretty clear motive, good or bad, it's a motive.

But like what would the Villisca motive be? there's no motive in any of these other ones you will see.

So again, I'm with Bill James on this one.

I think it's an, unknown serial killer who used the railway system to do these murders.

Because we are going to see... that near all of these homes, including Villisca, there is a railroad.

Oh, weird how you just brought that back.

Isn't that weird? and I didn't even mean to.

So the other incidents included in this theory are going to start with Colorado Springs, Colorado in September 1911, so a year before the Villisca murders.

May Alice Burnham, who is 25 years old, and her two children, Nellie Emma, who was six. and John, who was three.

Oh my goodness. They lived at 321 Westdale Street in Colorado.

Okay. This home was less than a hundred yards from the railroad tracks.

Uh, So Mae Alice and her sister, Nettie Ruth, were very close.

They had dinner every Sunday night together, like a family dinner.

I think her husband was... consumptive, so he was oftentimes in the hospital He was staying in a hospital where they were trying to, like, get rid of the tuberculosis, basically.

So he was not home this night. And he did... have like an alibi and they thought it was him at first but he was able to prove it wasn't okay Now, May Alice and her sister, Nettie Ruth, had made plans To get together on Wednesday, September 20th to get to like get together and sew together because they like do projects together.

Right. She arrived at the home, but all the shades were drawn and it was eerily still. she knocked couldn't get an answer so she thought oh Alice or May Alice must be at their friend Anna Merritt's home she's a neighbor like a couple doors down.

So she walked there, and May Alice wasn't there.

And in fact... Anna was like, I haven't talked to her in days actually, and that's a little concerning.

So together they walked back and used a skeleton key to open the back door, which is literally what happened in Villisca.

And I suppose like how you said like the whole the curtains drawn.

Now we have a skeleton key. Now they immediately noticed that the Sunday dinner was still on the table.

Like, had not been cleaned up, was still sitting there.

And Nettie... had been there Sunday, the three days before, she knew something bad had happened immediately.

When they went into the rear bedroom, they found the bodies of the mother and her two children on the bed.

Oh. It appeared both Mother and John 3 didn't wake up.

They were hit in their sleep. But little...

Emma had tried to escape, it appeared, before being hit by the axe.

Oh no. The scene had all the curtains and blinds drawn and it was pitch black in there.

The doors were locked upon the killer leaving.

And there was a bowl filled with water that was bloody where he had washed his hands.

That's weird. I don't know if you remember this, same in Villisca.

Yeah. The killer had hung around, washed their hands, also covered some of the bodies with sheets.

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Now, police and coroners were immediately called to the scene.

And when they arrive to survey the scene, there's neighbors everywhere.

They're all coming out because as soon as police cars show up, it's, I mean, it's the same now.

None of us ever change. We're all going to run out and see what the fuck's going on.

So all the neighbors are like, what is happening?

And suddenly some of the neighbors are like, That's weird.

Their next door neighbors, which is the Wayne family, they were like, they're not coming out.

And then some of the neighbors were like, huh, I haven't heard from them in a couple of days, actually.

Oh, no. So they were like, OK. So they enter the home next door.

And found another axe-murdered family inside.

Are you serious? So this person did two in one night?

Right next door. The victims were Henry F. Wayne, who was 30 years old, his wife Blanche McGinnis Wayne, she was 26. and their baby daughter Lula, who was two.

Lula! They were all found in the same bed.

They had all been killed with blunt ax blows to the head.

Wow. A metal basin was found with bloody water in it where he had washed his hands afterwards and all the shades and curtains were drawn.

The axe was found nearby for both of the scenes.

It was one axe and it had been borrowed by Henry from a neighbor.

And they found it like just abandoned nearby, like in Villisca.

Again, on scene too, like it wasn't like this person was bringing their own tool.

And just like Villisca, no robbery. They were found with rings on bracelets that could have been stolen.

Nothing was stolen from the house. Wow. Clearly they had been done the same night by the same person.

That's too coincidental to even consider they weren't.

Both scenes had windows where the killer had clearly entered and left through.

In the Burnham home, there was ink. that was on the windowsill, like a thing of a little jarving, that the killer had spilled and tried to clean up when they left.

So that's how they knew they went in and out of the window.

The police were like, nope, they're not connected.

And they're probably not a stranger. I think it's like probably the husband of Mrs. Burnham.

What? Like, right. Okay. Killing it, guys.

Killing it. They're not connected they're literally feet away next door where they literally like all the curtains are drawn there's a bowl with bloody water there's They were like, it's fine.

It's just crazy. Guys, what are you doing?

They're like, it's 1911. It's nuts. Yeah.

The newspapers at the time, so one of them said, six slain with axe as they lie asleep in bed.

Two women, a man, and three children, ghastly evidence of a baffling crime.

Motive includes lack to assist police in Colorado Springs.

Then it says, murdered in their own homes by some unidentified person who used an axe.

The bodies of six persons, three in each of two neighboring houses, which I was like, wow, that's a weird way of saying that.

That's very convoluted, but thank you. What did they say?

Three in each of two neighboring houses.

Yeah. I was like, you could have said that better, I feel. were found here this afternoon.

The heads of all the victims had been crushed and the appearance of the bodies indicated that they had been dead. several days and that death had come while they slept.

Wow. Now, the next murders were in October 1911.

So only a couple months later or a couple months, a couple weeks later, excuse me.

The first was in Monmouth, Illinois. So this was Sunday, October 1st, literally like two weeks after this one.

Jeez. William Dawson didn't show up to his job at the First Presbyterian Church.

So the church dudes were worried and they were probably just pissed that he didn't show up to work.

The church dudes. The church dudes. So they sent deacons.

I know that. They sent deacons to his home to check on him.

William Dawson and his wife Charity and their 13-year-old daughter Georgia were found dead in their home. home.

This home was about a quarter mile away from the railroad.

Georgia was found in a position that indicated she woke up and tried to escape. or she was placed in a different way.

As we are seeing, in Villisca in the Colorado Springs one and in this one we have young girls who who are placed a different way.

Either seem like they woke up or they were moved after.

Right. Strange. Connected. Yeah. And so Bill James, says that often this particular serial killer would kill everyone in their sleep. and they would be found where they left, where they lay, just like in Villisca, just in the other ones.

They were found in bed. But like I just said, that young girl or some girl in this or woman in these situations It's just in a different way.

Right. Just like Lena. That can't be ignored.

That's not a coincidence. That's a huge thing.

That's not just like, oh, weird that that happened.

It's a huge detail in the case. It's a big deal.

All the blinds were drawn, the doors were locked, the bodies were covered partially with sheets.

There were reports that a lead gas pipe was found nearby and they thought that was the murder weapon.

It had like blood on it. But as Bill James points out, he thinks, sure, it could have been.

And it may be that they just didn't have an axe on the scene.

Yeah, because this guy comes, like we said, with nothing.

He comes with nothing, hoping there's an axe.

Because usually there is. He might have assumed there would be an axe.

There wasn't. He used a lead pipe. Murder is his intent, not robbery, not anything else.

All he cares about is killing people. Right, and bludgeoning them.

If a gas pipe works, that works. Right. So, October 15th, only a week later or two weeks later, excuse me.

Ellsworth, Kansas. William Shoman does not come to work.

Another William. He is working at a garage helping out the mechanic and also acting as like a taxi for riders of the train. a neighbor of the showman family who lives very close to the railroad track, by the way, sees that their dog is wandering the neighborhood all day.

Also interesting that he worked as a taxi driver for people on the train.

Mm-hmm. Very interesting. So she tries to contact the showmans to be like, hey, your dog's wandering around.

Like, you might want to get him. She doesn't get a response.

So she was close with the family, so she called the garage where William worked to be like, hey, your dog's walking around. and I don't know why your family isn't answering the phone.

And she gets the information from his employer, hey, he's not here.

He didn't show up today. So she goes to the house and she's like, I got to check on them.

It's like Mary. It is. And she finds them all in their beds with their heads demolished by an axe.

William, who was 27. His wife, Pauline, who was 27 as well.

They had young kids. Lester, who was sick.

Fern who was four and Fenton who was two.

Fenton was hit with such ferocity that the head was severed.

Oh my goodness. Now Pauline, the wife, was posed. and everybody else was found where they slept.

Right. The axe was taken from a neighbor's yard and it was left at the scene.

The blinds were drawn. Some of the bodies were covered with sheets.

A sheet was actually put over the phone as well.

That's interesting. This is interesting.

And some think that this was to stop the noise if it rang, which is like, okay.

It could seem like a thing that this killer would do if you really think about it.

It seems like he doesn't like external stimuli. while he's doing this.

He blocks out all the windows. He gets rid of any mirrors so movement isn't going to like, fuck with his peripheral or anything.

I think he just wants to be solely focused on what he's doing.

So that definitely could be it, that he didn't want the phone to ring.

It would muffle the sound of the ring. But then some researchers think, and I agree, that he covered this phone because phones at the time had those bells on top that look like eyes.

Reflective. No, they look like eyes. Oh.

My grandfather, Pa, had one because he worked for the phone company for a long time.

I was always obsessed with it. It was this really cool old phone they had in their house.

And to me, it always looked like a big face that looked at you.

It has the nose where the receiver is. It looks like a honk nose.

And it's got like things on the bottom that look like a mouth and big eyes on the top.

Oh, and he may have been covering the eyes on the phone like he covered the mirrors.

So no one was looking at him. That's weird.

This is also why he demolishes their faces, and Joe Moore, who was specifically said to be Sans' eyes when he was found.

I think he doesn't want humans to be looking at him or anything that looked like it could be looking at him.

A mirror. Anything. Huh. I mean, it definitely could be it.

I think both are really good. Regardless.

Now, there was an oil lamp with the chimney removed and that chimney was placed under the chair and the wick was split.

Dude, come on. And that was found in a couple of other cases, too.

A washing bowl was left with bloody water in it where the killer washed his hands.

Like, hello. Yeah. Now, June 1912, there was like a big break.

At Paola, Kansas. Roland and Anna Hudson.

Her maiden name was Axe, by the way. AXAXXE.

I just thought that was interesting. On June 2nd, 1912, Roland did not show up for his shift at work.

Neighbors were concerned because the evening before there had been a failed break-in at another home on the street.

In that home, It was a husband, wife and an eight-year-old daughter.

They had been awakened by the sound of glass shattering. found that someone had broken in but had went out through the window, They had tried to use the oil lamp, but broke the glass chimney.

And when they broke the glass chimney, they fled.

Oh my goodness. They had bent the wick. Dude.

Now they go to the Hudson home, the neighbors, which was very close to the railroad, by the way. to check on them because it was unlike them to be so still all day.

They flagged down a deputy city marshal who just happened to be like walking by and they had him enter the home.

The Miami Republican reported, a ghastly sight, turning back a cover lid and sheet that covered their heads.

They found Mr. and Mrs. Hudson dead. Mr. Hudson was lying on his right side with the left side of his head and face crushed.

He was evidently murdered while he slept without having made much of a struggle.

Mrs. Hudson was apparently awakened when her husband was killed and raised her head. when she was struck on the back of the head and of her face with some partially sharp instrument an inch or an inch and a half wide.

So, she moved. Right. The shades and curtains were drawn...

Some of the bodies were covered in sheets and there was an oil lamp without a chimney in the room.

Nothing was stolen. Yeah, dude. Hello, hello, hello Four days later was Villisca, Iowa You know it You know it well.

We do. You know what happened then. Serial killer.

Yeah. This is a serial killer. How is that not?

Yes, 1911, 1912 axe murder, serial killer.

Absolutely, all near the railroad. Four of those cases had victims' heads covered with clothing and fabric.

Three had killers who washed after the murders.

Five had cases that they hung out for way too long afterwards.

Three of those cases used an oil lamp and removed the chimney and placed it aside and bent the wick.

Yeah, dude. Come on. So in Bill James in his book says he thinks this is like. a serial killer that was maturing at this point.

So had already killed way before this and he lists out a ton of cases that it makes sense.

So read the book. For every single case he ties to this killer, it's...

Going to blow your mind. It really is. Because I was like, you solved it, yo.

That's insane. Yo. But yeah, so those are the cases that I think, and I think it is a serial killer.

I mean, everything that you said leads me to believe the same. but I'll leave you to do your own research with that and maybe someday I'll make a podcast that's like solely dedicated to this and i can go absolutely crazy and just live an axe murdering existence because I want to dive so far into this.

But I will get away from like the suspects and the murders right now.

And we'll end on the haunting. Okay. Because you know in Villisca there's going to be some residual energy.

You can still stay there, yeah? You sure can.

The home actually had seven owners after the murders, and then it was bought in 1994 by Darwin and Martha Lynn.

It's a beautiful home. It is beautiful. They restored it beautifully. plans were to make it into a historical museum and just restore it back to 1912.

They did just that. They had no idea how popular the house was going to be as a tourist attraction.

Because it's huge. And you can stay there now for $428 a night.

And it's like the Lizzie Borden in where they hand you the key and they're like, Godspeed, brother.

And then they just leave you on the property.

Is there somebody on the property, though?

I don't think so. I think laws vary state by state in Massachusetts. they have to be on the property somebody might be on like somewhere but they hope so they leave you They do that in the Lizzie Borden, but they're somewhere in the property.

They're in the store, I think. Yeah. So Martha Lynn has said she's experienced a lot of things there, but she refuses to go into specific details. because she said she doesn't want to color the guest's experience with her own.

So she wants people to go in, feel what they feel or don't feel what they feel.

All right. I don't want to tell you what to feel. she said quote i don't know if the murderer is still there but things have happened that aren't exactly calming Now, obviously, every single paranormal investigator and television show has been here.

Zach Bagans. Oh, you better believe he's been there.

Of course. I think I mentioned he had a real theatrical time when he went there.

But there are stories about people feeling like a real sense of dread there.

And I honestly believe that now. Like if you had asked me this a year ago, I'd be like, well, yeah, everybody was murdered in there.

Like that's, you're just gonna walk in and be like, I've. of course i feel like bummed at this but after going to the lizzie borden house it's inexplicable It's not the anticipatory dread that you know you're going to feel upon entering a house where a horrible crime has occurred. that yeah that happens you can smell it it's a different feeling when we like touch it When we were in Abby Borden's bedroom, I was like... feel sick like i don't feel right here i thought i was going to pass out yeah And my legs, just my legs were freezing.

Yeah, and I feel like Villisca must be even worse.

I mean, yeah, there's certainly more people and children.

Now, they have toys set up in the kids' rooms. like balls and such because it's set up how it was at the time and they put these things in there because a lot of people think that they can contact the kids and the kids will play with them with the choice.

Now, a lot of times people will roll a ball and it will roll back. or you won't touch the ball and it will just start rolling at you.

And people have tried to debunk it. They can't.

They can't figure it out. There are tons of videos of this and they've done it on like a ton of paranormal shows.

Yeah, I've seen it before. Like I said, Zach Bagans has been all up in here.

Yeah. I think he's stood in front of it in the beginning of his thing and he was holding an axe.

It was very intense. It's a little distasteful.

Often people will hear kids giggling and playing or they'll hear entire conversations upstairs.

Really? People will also say that sometimes they hear things whispered in their ear.

Oh, I hate that. And they've heard things like, do it, and like...

Or like, get out of here, stuff like that.

But a lot of times they'll hear like a very menacing voice saying like, do it. and like urging them to do something that's scary they all Also, a lot of people say they report feeling their pant legs tugged like from a kid.

I think all that is well and fine, but the feelings are what everybody really describes the same way.

People say if they lie in the beds, especially the beds of the children, they feel like... overwhelming sadness, not sadness of like, oh, I'm laying in a bed and a kid was murdered here.

It's like a... They said they feel like a heavy feeling of dread on them.

I don't know if I would want to land the beds.

Yeah, I couldn't do that, I don't think.

Uh, There are motion detectors in the home upstairs as well.

And a lot of times when someone's alone or they're downstairs, the motion detectors go off upstairs.

It happens a lot. That also happens in your house, so that's fun.

I know, that happens a lot in my house. Now, luminol.

Luminol and UV lights detect an outrageous amount of blood splash and spatter on the walls, ceilings, and floors in the home.

Still. It's like super unsettling. It's obviously they cleaned it initially when it happened.

But back then in 1912, you just... Wiped it down.

Visually clean. Right. And blood stays. And even when you paint over it You can find it again.

You can bring it through. I didn't realize that it could last that long.

Blood can still be seen. And there's like pictures where you can see like the ceilings are just... there's splash marks on the ceiling.

I don't know if I could go. No, I definitely could, but it's like really upsetting.

So November 7th, something crazy happened, November 7th, 2014.

A 37-year-old man named Buck was staying in the home with his mother and stepmother doing what they referred to as a recreational paranormal activity. investigation.

People do it all the time. Yeah. They were in different places around the home and his mom and stepfather were outside.

They were communicating with walkie talkies and things like that.

Suddenly around 1245 a.m., which is when they think the Moors were being killed, the mother and stepfather get a call through the walkie-talkie for help from Buck.

He's like screaming for help. He was in the downstairs bedroom where Lena and Ina were killed.

They found him laying on the bed with a stab wound in his chest.

He was legitimately brutally stabbed in the chest with a knife.

What? There was a knife in his chest. They had to call 911 from the Villisca Axe Murder House.

And he was airlifted eventually to a hospital in Omaha, Nebraska.

He was in intensive care but released and it was determined the stab wound was self-inflicted. but no one can figure out why or where the knife came from.

They don't think you just carried it in with him?

Well, they think he doesn't remember doing any of this.

And he said he doesn't. So in a nightmare, like, I know it sounds weird, but like, he legitimately stabbed himself in the chest.

Like this wasn't like, oh, I felt something poke me.

Yeah. He stabbed his own lung. Like he collapsed a lung.

Yeah. That's commitment to a cause if you're really just trying to fuck with people.

That's really committed to that. No, it is.

I agree with you. I don't think Zach Bagans is that committed, so I feel like...

Yeah, I don't think anybody should be that committed.

No, in a book called In a Nightmare, A Nightmare in Villisca by Richard Estep.

They talk about in 2019, the show Kindred Spirits interviewed Buck.

They talked to him because he did recover.

And he explained, yeah, and he explained that he had tried to recreate the crime scene a bit, which...

A lot of these paranormal investigators will do that.

I don't agree with that kind of shit. I feel like that's asking for trouble, but they will kind of try to annoy the spirits and aggravate them and get them to do something.

Let's not do that. So he said, he admitted I did try to provoke them.

And he said, I was saying some vulgar things and just trying to get some kind of reaction.

And he said, obviously he never thought that something like that would happen, but he said, He saw the biggest like orb or shadowy kind of thing he had ever seen in his life.

And then suddenly he was lying on the bed with a knife in his chest.

Interesting. And he remembers waking up with a breathing tube in the hospital.

He doesn't remember anything between that.

And did he say like, I didn't bring a knife with me?

He maintains that he didn't do this to himself.

I don't know what... his stances on like why he would bring the knife or whether he remembers bringing the knife.

Right. But he said he maintains he did not do this to himself.

That he was like, it happened. Like, I physically did it, but I did not intend to do this.

Like I didn't go in there thinking I was going to do this.

I just don't understand why he would have had a knife in the first place.

No, none of it makes any sense, but it's still a very strange... thing that happened in that house whether it's i i'm not saying it's the house that made him do it no of course not But it's another strange thing that happened in that house where somebody stabbed themselves in the chest.

Yeah. and like collapsed a lung. And he said there was a now and he also says there's a lot of creepy EVPs from that night.

And like that we're saying menacing things and his parents have those and whatever.

But that's a really strange thing that happened in 2014.

It's something that people are still like, what the fuck was that?

Because even if it's, again... Even if it's not like the host made him do it.

It's still a very dark thing that happened in that house.

Yeah. Of course. Like, why would someone... Why would... It's just very strange.

So... That is the last thing that I'll talk about that happened there.

But the last thing I just want to touch up on is that you can go to this house still.

You can see the original acts displayed.

Wow. in the house yeah not in the house it's at the historical society and it's behind glass okay It was acquired by Dr. Edgar Epperly, who is an expert on the case and the history.

He actually got the axe from someone else.

And it was this whole thing where like I read that, um, No one wanted to receive money for this axe.

They didn't want to sell it between each other.

Right, of course not. So he gave him like a box of chocolates for it.

So they say like the axe was sold for a box of chocolates.

It's like this weird story. Now, he had it.

He had it at his home for a long time. And he would bring it out for events.

Ash is so horrified by this whole I just, I like shook my head no.

She keeps just going, no. like the whole I would not want that axe at my house or in my presence it was yeah he had it at his house I am a big believer in energy.

Yeah, I know this is not your thing. I don't, I'm not judging anybody.

It freaks me the fuck out. Yeah. Apparently Dr. Epperly was okay though. yeah i'm glad yeah and he would bring it out for like documentaries and yeah um they would have like um historical festivals in the town where he would bring it out and put it on display.

And then finally, he wanted to donate it officially to the Historical Society because he said...

And they all say, even though this is huge tragedy, it's something the town is known for. to have in its past and it's such a huge piece of history.

You can't just forget it. You can't just forget that it happened.

Of course not. And technically it's unsolved.

So it's like... Yeah. And it's no longer considered a piece of evidence at this point because it's been that long.

But yeah, he donated it in October 2006, so you can see it if you would like to.

Uh, I believe the cemetery is also only like a 10 minute walk from the house where the whole family is buried.

Aww. So it's the same kind of thing as the Lizzie Borden house.

You can go see the graves of the people who were lost there, and then you can... try to stay in the house.

I don't know. I don't know. After Lizzie Borden House, I feel like...

This would be intense. I do want to see this house really bad.

I think this one is one that I would go see.

I don't know if I could spend the night in that house.

Yeah. i didn't i literally did not go to sleep no and she did not allow me to go to sleep Why the fuck would I let you go to sleep?

What, am I going to sit up there alone and talk to the spirits?

There were several times I tried to fall asleep on that couch and you would not let me.

I hate you. No, I'm kidding. not no no elena wants to go back and i'm like yeah we can go back but like again You're staying up literally not going to sleep.

And I was like, damn it. It was fun. It is interesting.

And it's like a fun... You know, they make it into an experience because, you know, we're far enough removed from the actual crimes that now we can talk about it in a historical way.

Yeah. And somebody asked where our room was actually in the Lizzie Borden house.

We were in the attic. We sure were, but we literally went there on the tour. left our bags there, got them the next morning, and that was about the amount of time we spent there.

The entire time, the entire night we were in the parlor.

We were in the living room where Andrew Borden was killed. sitting on the couch the entire night.

And there's a fucking mail slot in that house and you could hear it I think during the recording.

And the wind kept whistling through the mail slot.

Because not only did we go to the Lizzie Borden house in October, we went to the Lizzie Borden house in October on a dark and stormy night.

Yeah, like a monsoon was happening. it was it was not just raining it was a fucking monsoon oh we were they left us lanterns because they were like when they left they were like power might go out here's some lanterns I was like are you fucking kidding me It hadn't started storming yet, and I was like, wow, that's cute.

And then it started storming. And then it was like...

And you were like, oh, we might need those.

Yeah, it's a trip. So that is the Villisca axe murders.

In my discussion of them. That was incredibly.

As abridged as I could get it. I applaud you because that was a really interesting case to sit here and listen to.

It's fascinating. Thanks for your research skills.

Thanks. Hopefully I gave you something, you know, different because I know this case is talked about a lot.

So hopefully you got a little bit of different. perspective or information out of it.

Um, but I will list all, All of these books, I'm going to list the paper, I'll list the blogs, I'll give you everywhere you can go look for your own stuff.

So enjoy. And stay safe. We hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it. Weird, but not somewhere that you go to those house and like bad things happen to you, because I don't want anything bad to happen to you.

No. Bye. Love you. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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[The Enigma of the Villisca Axe Murders: Suspects, Patterns, and Paranormal Echoes]-[Episode 272: The Villisca Axe Murders Part 2]

📋 Summary

The Villisca Axe Murders: An Unsolved Legacy

The Prime Suspects: Reverend Kelly and Frank Jones

The Serial Killer Theory: A Pattern of Violence

Paranormal Echoes and Modern Tragedy

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript