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Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. very special morbid this is a super special morbid and i'm so exa we just got off the phone with a very special guest and i'm like hyped that we got to do Yeah, it was amazing.
It was. So in episode 214, we covered the case of Molly Molly Bish was a 16-year-old lifeguard who, on the morning of June 27, 2000, was essentially abducted from her lifeguard post, and really just, honestly, go back and pressure or anything like that in plain daylight and yeah because in plain daylight she was abducted from her it was literally 10 o'clock in the morning yeah Terrifying.
It's so scary. But we before actually I we did the episode, I actually reached out to Molly's sister, Heather, who's like very active in trying to solve molly's case because this is an unsolved case yeah so before it's like 20 plus years later it's so crazy and it's It's so sad.
It's like a very tragic case. And we're from Massachusetts.
So it's like. Right. I feel like everybody from Massachusetts feels like they have some kind of personal stake in this case.
You want to see this. And like you'll hear in the interview, we love the Bish family and I just feel like they are like our family and we want to see them. we want this case to be solved for them they're like our Massachusetts brethren they are Before, I mean, I read a ton about Heather before I started or while I was researching the case because she's so involved in trying to figure everything out.
So, We actually reached out to Heather and said, hey, you know, we're going to cover Molly's case if you want to come on the show for like an afternoon. afterwards kind of interview to tell us about the work that she's been doing to really get this case solved and then Tell us what we can do and the numbers that we can call and reach out to to help her get this case solved.
Exactly. because this is unsolved, which is nuts.
So I'm so stoked that Heather was willing to do that and she joined us for an episode and you guys are going to love this episode.
She's amazing. You're all going to fall in love.
Heather Bish is an icon, everybody. And what we talk about a lot in this, I just want to put it out first so that everybody can like. start Googling it while it's beginning because it's important is she's really starting to try or starting.
She's really in the Deep in the process of trying to... push forward the bill which is S-1595 in Massachusetts and she will, I'll let her explain in the episode what it's all about.
It's basically to help push forward DNA that was found in Molly's case and also can help in other cases. for rape kits.
It has tons of implications. So... Go look that up real quick before the episode starts because I think you're going to want to know what's in there.
Yeah, definitely. And then after the episode is over, whip out your cell phone and just start calling everyone we said to call.
Yeah, we'll take a look at the show notes.
I'll make sure I put all the information in there for you guys to...
So we can get this case solved. It's time.
It is. It's time for Molly and it's time for the bitches.
Time for this all. So I think. without further ado here it is enjoy guys Well, thank you so much, Heather, for coming on the show.
We're honestly really honored to have you as a guest and we appreciate you even taking the time to talk to us.
Oh, that's so kind. You guys are really, I'm appreciative of with what you're doing and sharing these stories and sharing Molly's story, especially.
That's so important, especially with these older cases.
I mean, this podcast phenomenon has just been So interesting to me.
And I'm just like hearing all of you, you guys on the sidelines.
I love it. You know, for every. case that's getting pieces of information coming forward or even arrests happening.
I'm just in awe of the work of all the excuse me creators that are out there um you know really sharing these stories so i am honored Oh, thank you so much.
That was so sweet. We were both just sitting there like, oh my God. thank you already off to a wholesome start I know right Well, like you were saying, this case, Molly's case specifically, It captivated, I mean, the nation.
It captivated everyone. And we got requests to cover Molly's case from all over the world.
Like before we covered it, people were like, please cover this case.
And we were always waiting to do it because we wanted to do it really right because.
We're from Massachusetts, too. So we were like.
We felt like a connection to this. Yeah, we feel like this is like one of our family members because, you know. here in Massachusetts, we're all just like feeling like we're one.
So we were like, we got to do this right.
And I think when that happens, it can be, you know, it can be great because like information is getting out there.
People are behind this case wanting to solve it, wanting to move it forward.
But I imagine it must be kind of hard to in a way for family members because You have memories of Molly as a sister.
Your brother has memories of Molly as a sister. your parents have memory of molly as a daughter she was a lifeguard she was a friend She was a person.
She's not just Molly Bish, the murder victim.
And I think sometimes that can get lost in translation, which I imagine can be kind of difficult for you guys at times.
It is. And, you know, I think there's some, you know, there's some, I don't know.
I think when there's like a benefit of being able to talk about Molly, I think when you lose someone you love, whether it's a sibling or a spouse or your best friend, You know, people can kind of get weird and they don't want to say anything.
And sometimes they'll even avoid walking down the same hallway as you, you know. just to not be in that awkward position.
And I think... And so people don't get a chance to talk about the person that they love.
And sometimes people are afraid to bring it up because that loss was so sad and so devastating, but having the chance to talk about Molly, you know, and share You know, the work that we do is really a reflection of Molly's love and her...
Um, love for the world and people, and it's kept us going and, and I guess that is really special. privilege of all this craziness and all the ugliness is that we do get to talk about my sister and and think about her and share how our special memories and our our moments of joy and how we were proud of her.
And sometimes my brother and I will, have conversations after I do these podcasts or or there's a news article or something.
We'll talk about what do you think she'd be like or who would she still be friends with from her friend group or what would she think of this particular situation or, you know, and that, you know, it's kind of you know, fun for us to do that, to imagine what our life would be like to have her with us still because We miss her.
I mean, that loss is still felt every single day.
You know, I miss calling her when something good happens.
I really miss her on my birthday. I hate my birthday without my sister. it's still awful 20 years later.
I just, she should be there with me. And every year that I have to face without her, it's like, you know, everything that that scab off and and bleeding again um so it's yeah it's hard but there's there is you try to, I guess when there's hard things always look for, um, those moments that offer you know the good and and try to embrace that because I don't know how we would survive all this terrible stuff in the world if we didn't.
Seriously, I can't even imagine trying to navigate this whole entire thing. thing, you know?
On top of everything else in the world. Right.
You have such a healthy way of looking at it that I think a lot of people would have trouble doing.
Can we plug mental health and taking care of our emotional health right now?
Yes. Be not afraid to go to therapy for 20 years.
Absolutely. because it's so important to continue to unwrap how you're responding to the world and how your family culture changes. sort of trained you to respond to the world and how you either want to continue that or maybe think about a different way of doing it.
Exactly. Yeah, we're Irish Catholic over here, so we know all about that.
Yeah, we grew up in a big Irish Catholic family.
Or like, maybe we should talk about our feelings.
I just love that generation. Again, I work at a college, so I... have the privilege of working with the younger generations.
And I just love how they're growing up so much more inclusively and talking about feelings and I just think it's going to make a better world. someday yeah absolutely absolutely for sure i know and it's really up to us at this point to teach Yeah, the younger generation had to do that.
Because I think our parents' generation was like right at that point where they were like, kind of ready to tell us to talk about our feelings towing the line it gets better each time Yep, exactly.
Well, going off of that, what is like one thing about Molly from a sister's perspective that you want people to know about Molly or even like a specific memory that you guys have together that makes you smile.
I think I always talk about Molly's love for the world. people, she loved animals, she loved babies, she loved being outside, the sunshine, a beautiful day, getting an ice cream cone.
She loved living. She loved life. She loved being a part of what was happening around her and um i think you know when i think about molly and i i guess i'm always most proud of um how she welcomed people.
When she had... an art class she had some special needs students and then I always tell the story of how she would write them a note and kind of like encouraging them to be a part of the class and welcoming them and making them feel at home because they weren't in the other classes with the rest of the students.
They were in like a some separate classroom.
And just her empathy and her ability to think about other people, that thoughtfulness.
And I try to carry that out with me in my life and think about different perspectives and turn things over all the time and because of my sister.
And she was my baby sister. But that's what she taught me in my life.
And you know, I hope that people know that the work that we do is because of that, because Molly cared so much about people.
She cared so much about the world. and, you know, making people feel safe and comfortable in their environment.
And that's, you know, that's sort of, you know, premise of everything that we want to see happening.
And you know, I guess when you have a case that's 20 almost 21 years old you're like where is this guy and has he hurt other people and you You know, you guys explore all these various cases and you know there's a lot of bad guys out there.
There's a lot and go with scary and you can go from you know being a narcissist to a murderer and you know a short time and again you know that mental health is so important but you know I think just trying to, you know, live in a way that we're trying to make the world safer because of Molly.
And so, you know, recently I've been working on this familial DNA. legislation in Massachusetts, which they have in 14 other states.
And it's just really just a process to test the DNA or unidentified DNA from an older case or an older, maybe a rape case or a murder. and be able to have a larger, I call it a net to sort of, get the bad guy um and you know we have this CODIS system that's um has all of our our um felonies in their DNA profiles, theoretically.
I know you guys know this. No, go ahead though.
Yeah. Because this is Bill, is it S-1595?
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because we were going to ask you.
Like, by all means, tell us as much as you can about that because we want everybody to know about that.
Yeah, so it just really, what it does is it allows law enforcement to put this unidentified DNA forward into CODIS again and tough for a partial match or familial match so it might you know, touch on someone 56% or 37%, but that will lead investigators to say, hmm, someone in this family committed this rape or committed this murder and they can go back to the drawing board and sort of figure out where the players were in that family that day.
It narrows the field, like unbelievably.
And what's interesting to me that I found out is that 50% of the people in CODIS have a relative in CODIS.
So it's so funny because I came across that too.
And it shocked me. I know that's a high number.
But then I thought like, okay, well, there's a lot of teachers in my family.
That's my family culture. And I guess if you're in a family culture that, you know, rape or molest each other, that's going to continue.
And so they want to to have people getting arrested in the same family network that are experiencing that trauma.
I mean, we all know that these behaviors aren't you know, coming out of the blue.
Most people are turning to crime and these horrific things. they do to other people because of trauma oh yeah nurture is a huge part of it Yeah.
So, you know, that's a sad societal number, sorry, for us.
But if we look at it, and a law enforcement perspective or a victim perspective, those are, I mean, those are Those are odds I'd put money on at a casino, you know?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, seriously. For real. you know, we're going to get the bad guy and we're using science and it hasn't, you know, you know, unidentified the wrong person, you know, it's actually... used by the Innocence Project in Michigan as a way to exonerate people.
So really it's just format for this bill.
It's just setting up a protocol and how we would do it in Massachusetts.
And I'm just really, really hopeful that You know, we can get this through.
We have about an 8,000 rape kit backlog in Massachusetts.
Yes. We need to get on top of what's happening forensically in our state.
I mean, we're leaders with MIT and WTI. There's no reason.
We're cranking out forensic scientists in Boston and they're all leaving the states. we need to sort of put some resources together for our forensic, I think.
Absolutely. Yeah, we need to nourish this.
We have it here. We're building it here.
We need to nourish it here. Exactly. And you know, we have a lot of, you know, Worcester County alone has 40 to 60 unresolved cases.
That's so crazy. So sad. They go back to the 50s and technology might be able to identify this by now you know so it's just i think it's just so important to use what what scientific you know, resources are available for law enforcement.
I mean, in today's society, I mean, There's good cops and bad cops, just like everything, good teachers and bad teachers.
And we want to give the good police officers all the tools available to get those bad people off the street.
So you know, there aren't Yes, because I think that's one of the huge things about this.
This bill can not only help cases like Molly's and families that are going through the same thing that you're going through, But this can, those rape kits that are sitting on the shelf, it's like this can get rapists off the street like this is something everybody should be invested in and everybody should be behind absolutely And, you know, some of these rapes are violent.
Yeah. Exactly. I keep trying to stress, and I know I'm preaching to the choir with you guys, but You know, it's a hair's breadth away when someone commits one crime to go to the next level.
Of course. you know, is in a state of paranoia or psychosis to go further, deeper.
I think we just, you know, we need all our tools available.
Absolutely, because some of these can connect to more violent Offenders.
Offenses. Yeah. Like, you know, somebody raped someone and they could have escalated to something else and we have no idea.
Right. Yep, exactly, exactly. Do you think – oh, sorry, go ahead.
So I was just going to say, I'm just really hopeful this time that it will go through because We started this about two years ago.
I had talked to my law enforcement detectives and they had asked that, you know, Heather, if you want, I want to work on something.
We could really use this. familial dna and i had no idea what it was at the time i'm just like okay let's do it sure you're like anything let's do it you know being in massachusetts they're like every other state has done this as a policy And Massachusetts is like, nope, we want a law.
It's frustrating. Thanks, Mass. But I'm like, I will climb every mountain.
I will scream from the mountaintop until I get this guy. don't care how far it takes me.
I am bound and determined. And you know, now it's, When you're in that club that everybody talks about that nobody wants to belong to like this, you know, you really start caring about all these other victims, particularly the ones that are at attention.
Like, I constantly talk about Patty Gagne, who is murdered in Worcester.
My brother found her the next day. People didn't search for Patty like they did for Molly.
She didn't get the national attention that Molly has gotten. um, You know, I just hope that maybe this will help solve Patty Gagne's case too.
Absolutely. as all these other victims that I've seen on the news and in podcasts.
Yeah, we're all in this together. And I'm just really hopeful that this will go through this time because during COVID, It kind of fell apart.
I was on the Massachusetts Persons Task Force, so we were kind of looking at legislation that was floating around in Massachusetts. and trying to put a report together to encourage the legislators just pass this kind of no-brainer so yeah and they they said why don't we uh Why don't we send your bill Heather over to the Forensic Oversight Committee.
And, you know, being an educator, I'm like, yes, I am used to working with like, You know, when I have a problem, I'm working with the autism specialist and, you know, the fourth grade teacher and you know, we're all kind of coming up with something together and I literally didn't feel myself, but you know, a special ed teacher not a science but here we go you're like I am putting on another hat so it worked out really well because they provide the feedback where we were able to edit the bill and really to fit our logistical structures and systems in Massachusetts and I think it's going in really strong and I've been spending probably the last two months calling legislators and just asking them to support this.
You know, most of them will see me or see me over Zoom.
Yeah. and have been really supportive. But some of them won't meet with me because I'm not in their jurisdiction.
I've been trying to start doing TikToks and whatever media I can use to sort of get people people who are in, you know, just people to reach out to their legislators and ask them to support this bill and be the voice that I can't be in their jurisdiction to possibly get this passed.
You know, it's important for victim families.
It's important for law enforcement. And it's most important for the justice for all these victims that we have.
A hundred percent. Definitely. Do you, is there anything else that people can do?
Like people listening other like call legislation, obviously.
Yeah, I would say that would be the most important thing.
If people could... call their legislators and just ask them to support 1595 in Massachusetts and We have a list of legislators on our website, mollyvish.com.
So people, if you don't know who your legislator is or turned over, you know, things are kind of crazy this year with COVID.
Yeah. who knows what who's who but that's good you have that right there for people to find And we'll share, we'll put that, the link in our show notes for this so people will have all the places they can go.
Yeah, we can even post like a picture of it.
Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.
Oh, absolutely. I think this is huge. We are fully like, yes, let's do this.
When we stepped into this case and just kind of started going through everything, I think because we are sisters.
Yeah. almost gave us that extra edge that we want to help you.
We feel so connected to this. Yeah, it felt like Molly was, like, we felt like your family reminded us so much.
Of our family. our big Massachusetts family like we just your parents just like I remember in the episode, we're just like, oh, my God, I just love this family and I want them to get justice so badly.
Right. Oh, thank you so much. I just, you know, I feel like that's you know, Molly's love signing down somehow because When I started this, it's so interesting.
There was a little article in the Cape Cod Times.
I live out here in Cape Cod now. And so this man emailed me from California.
His name is Rock Harmon, and he's actually this DNA expert that travels the world training law enforcement and prosecutors and defense attorneys on using DNA and the different tools.
Yeah. And I don't know who I'm talking to, but he was very nice and really coaching me and helping me really understand. the science part which was really imperative for me to do this yeah huge so Turns out he was a former prosecutor on the OJ Simpson case.
Oh, wow. And he just so... touched by you know what had happened in that case that became sort of a mission for him and you know retired in California, and he's been, you know, sending me articles and explaining things for me, going to meetings with me. talking to district attorneys to explain the little nuances between like YSDR profiles and familial DNA and what is this What are these little differences?
So he, you know, to me, those are like when Mr. Roger talks about look for the, you know, look for the helper.
Yes. Look for the helper. That's the helpers.
And that's, um, you know that those are the things you hold on to in life and remember all the good And the good people that are still out there because we're much stronger than, you know, these people who are really sick. and committed horrific acts. right and there's been a lot of people of interest it seems over the course of the past 20 years is there anyone on the suspect list that or anyone as a person of interest that you think is a good candidate for this?
Or do you think that it's someone we maybe even haven't looked at yet?
I wish you know I wish I could just feel like you know that sisterly connection that that's the guy but there's so much circumstantial circumstantial evidence so much some particular people that have been out there in the media.
And, you know, there's always that wild card that Was this just someone that happened to go smoke a cigarette before he went to work? or after he dropped off you know his mother asked at an appointment or something and saw this lifeguard there and then came back the next day and grabbed her.
Yeah. You know, I've never really been able to identify the guy in the white car.
He's never come forward. So could he be Rodney Stanford?
Could he be Darryl Bastoni? Could he be? you know, any of the number of other people that have been brought up possibly because we know witness, you know, testimony is kind of tricky and my mom you know saw the guy but you know it's hard to say that's the guy, that's the guy, that's definitely the guy.
They all look like the guy yeah they all do in some specific way it's true it must be so frustrating too because it's I'm sure you get this really giant feeling of hope every time a new person is introduced.
Absolutely, I do. And, you know, you just, you know, you try to make sense of who, Who would, how would they exist after and who could possibly do this after 20 years and just fit?
You know, what are they doing now? I think what gives me the most anxiety is where is this guy and what is he doing?
If he's in jail, great. If he's dead, great.
If he's one of those two guys and he's either dead or in jail, then okay, but no one's And so it's hard to rest, you know, when you know that.
Oh, I can't imagine. You know, I wish I could, you know, know.
You know, we talked to psychics. I mean, when Molly first disappeared, I had an 11 year old baby and I would have her on my hips and I'd be running through the woods with these psychics and I mean, I didn't know if I was going to find my sister's body or something.
It was so terrifying, but you didn't know what to do. and you're just trying to do something.
But no one's ever been able to say, Exactly.
And point me to the evidence. I mean, I've worked with some really, really great psychics.
I think our, you know, meaning well and authentic but still have not been able to break down you know who did this and and You know, so I've tried, I've tried every avenue for sure.
And we put up billboards. We've, We've taken out ads in newspapers.
I put up posters in 351 towns in Massachusetts.
You know, I've actually hired... producers to document a YouTube movie video, um, so that I could keep my, you know, parents' story and sort of a summary on the story and be able to share it because of the time lapse. people not email necessarily remembering what happened.
So We tried everything and the results of the familial searching across the country are just so phenomenal. really hopeful and you know that even the genetic genealogy work they're doing I'm just so hopeful that Massachusetts will really grab onto that and demonstrate the leadership that they should be having in this field, I think.
Yeah, because it does feel like it's like, it's like right there.
Like it could be hidden in there somewhere.
Why are we not doing this? I mean, the stuff they're doing in California is so...
Yeah, I mean, we have this controversy right now with these YSPR lists. some of the district attorneys are keeping what the forensic lab in Massachusetts is calling rogue lists but I would probably just call them unregulated yeah that makes sense So they would get like a profile back.
You know, they might get a crime scene DNA or...
Sometimes they're even using voluntary DNA, but they're, you know, putting it through the lab.
It doesn't have a hit and they're keeping the the profile separately.
I'm not really supposed to do that, but they're saying nothing saying that they can't do that.
And Bristol County was able to solve a case with Plymouth working together on that.
The thing is, YST only gives you father-son profiles, so it's a little more limiting.
Oh, okay. But... And so if you did, like, if I was in charge of the world or the, you know, you do the first CODIS search, right?
And then you do the submission. because that's going to catch the wire.
You actually don't need the YFPR profile. if you do the familial kind of negates it oh that makes sense right So, but I mean, if they're not in CODIS, I mean, you know, there's value to it if it's regulated.
Orange County uses it in California and they basically will like let a guy off on a misdemeanor.
He gives them their DNA and then they catch them for a rape, you know, three months later.
I mean, they're dealing with probably a different population, you know, gang life out there and stuff, but...
You know, it's an effective tool and certainly has demonstrated to be effective here.
And I think that maybe is just maybe a separate bill that needs to be put forward differently.
But I always try to explain it because you know, it's on the news.
And sometimes the reporters don't go into the whole story of what's really happening here.
And You know, I get why the DAs are doing it.
Again, they want to solve these 8,000 rates that are backlogged at the labs.
They're definitely committed to getting the bad guys off the streets. it's just, you know, you know, again, I think we just need to update our 22E law and make these, um, you know, changes to our protocols so that we can do these tests and, you know, have these tools and see what happens.
Definitely. One of the things that we actually talked about in our episode was at the old sawmill campground. that you guys use the ground penetrating radar.
And I didn't really see any update on that after like 2018 was that Did anything useful come of that or anything at all?
Oh, that was a good one. So I, you know, have work with a number of different private investigators over You know, since I guess when my father had a stroke, I kind of took over the investigation in 2007.
So I worked with a couple different ones, bringing different professionals. people forward.
We had a volunteer in our foundation who who you know was volunteering in 2003 when she was getting her degrees and um criminology and forensics and stuff like that.
She ended up getting a doctorate And moving back here, you know, a few years before that ground penetrating car thing happened, And she was trying to help me.
Cause I, you know, again, I'm like running out of ideas.
Okay. I put up, you know, posters. I put up ads.
I put up, um, You know, all these things, what else can I do?
And so we came up with an idea of doing a tip campaign, and she was going to use her students college where she taught to collect the tips and then we sort of organized them and then present them to the police.
And so that's how this third person of interest sort of came forward that she sort of identified this tip campaign because of that, she felt really strongly that, that there was a car in this campground.
So she arranged with someone from the University of Connecticut to come out and use this ground penetrating radix.
However, our state police were not involved in it.
And I was at my daughter's, she was just starting college orientation.
Um, and so we were, you know, I was available and it turned into sort of this media circus and.
I was kind of upset because it was supposed to be like, you know, I like to work with the police.
You know, again, I recognize all the I literally have a book ready to publish on my relationship with the movies and how it's impacted my life.
Oh, wow. Congratulations on writing a book.
That's huge. I've got a couple edits to do.
But, you know... I still try to work with them.
I try to encourage best practices and, and, have the hope that this institution is going to you know, someday get the concept here.
That's great. If I could change that lightly enough.
Yeah. So I was kind of upset that she, you know, had it turn out this way.
And so I was like, let's cease and desist.
I don't want to do this anymore. And she just kept pushing.
She ended up having a... press conference without my my our knowledge oh no So it really, and I was like, you've crossed my boundaries now.
Yeah, absolutely. let's stop this now and so i never found out what happened with the car i don't think I'm certain that the police could get that information.
And they were so irritated and so close to like charging her. that um it never so i don't think that there's anything to the campground or the car okay that makes sense That's so frustrating.
Yeah, and then she wrote a book after. oh my goodness yeah are you kidding me that is not okay You know what she did?
It would have been fine if she had done like a case study on Molly.
Yeah. Again, she had the education to do that.
But she put my parents' speeches into the book and like put herself into our story.
Like she was part of our life. Oh, that honestly gives me a pit in my stomach.
Yeah, I was going to say my stomach just flipped.
That's so gross. Literally, like, she wrote letters to Molly in this book.
Like, if you read this book... Holy smokes.
Oh, hate that. See, that's the thing that's frustrating.
Like to have to go through that. Yeah. Yeah.
Very betraying, very violating. Yeah, that's the thing.
Violation is what it feels like. Right. yeah yeah very very much so oh so um yeah i mean that's where that went so we'll kind of just doing this on my own, but so appreciative of these, you know, podcasts. updating about the case and the work that we're trying to do to keep it going.
You know, I'm not sure what I'll have to do after after the bill, but I'm sure there's there's more work to be done to support these cases.
You know, I was talking to a producer the other day and I said, If I told you that I was in a relationship with someone who, you know, gaslighted me and projected and you know and I kind of gave her some specific situations that happened and She's like, yeah, I would say you're in an abusive relationship.
And I said, what if I told her that was a state police and it wasn't a man?
Oh, my God. That was the perfect way to do that.
That's awesome. No, the drop. She's like, hold on a sec.
Does that change things? No. And I told her, I said, and then I'm a white woman. with a sister who's blonde and blue eyed.
And we know those cases get more attention and I have And I have a doctor.
I'm educated. And I'm still treated this way.
Yes, imagine. And my father was in law enforcement.
He was a probation officer. You know, they're a little nice about my dad, but. you know, if they're treating me this way, how do you think they're treating Patty Garnier's family?
Yes, absolutely. That's, I think, So there's probably a lifelong work that all of us victim family members are pushing and sort of trying to figure out how to you know, get our points across and get them to understand our perspective without being sort of labeled the crazy victim family member. right well and I feel like that's something we can all take from Molly and who she was and who, you know, you knew her as and who everyone who knew her knew her as, which is like empathy.
Caring about the world, caring about other people, like putting yourself in somebody else's shoes.
This is what everybody should be learning is like a It's not just about mine.
It's about everybody else's too. You know what?
It's like be Molly in art class. Yeah, exactly.
Right. That should be everybody's thought.
It should. I love it. I'm so happy you shared that with us.
That made me honestly choke up a little bit.
I know. that's great oh thank you guys I really appreciate it oh yeah absolutely One of the other things that we had spoken about in our episode, and I was just curious as to your opinion on this, is the Holly Perinin case.
I know it's heavily compared to Molly's case and some of the suspects or persons of interest were looked at in both cases.
Do you think that maybe those cases are connected or what are your thoughts on that?
You know, I think that there is certainly lots of room to look at the connections.
I think that's really incredibly important, but I don't necessarily think it's the same person, but I do think that My father used to say, If you lay down with dogs, you're going to get fleas.
Watch who your friends are, right? Absolutely.
I kind of think that there's a group out in that area.
Again, these generational trauma, you know, Same kind of history of violence, history of family violence, history of beatings, history of molestation, history of, you know, Uncle Marion. the cousin, sister, brother, you know, like that kind of stuff.
And they're all connected in these weird ways.
And that's the stuff I talk to the detectives about because I'm like, do you understand this?
I know when I walk into your office, It's not going to be like, you know, like the TV shows where you've got all the guys and the strings connecting people.
We always talk about that. We literally don't even have data systems that talk to each other barely.
Right. So to even look up a guy, you know, that's from a while ago is difficult for them. and then to get the larger perspective of oh no it's okay i have a dog too so i get it And so to have those nuances and know that this guy was best friends with this guy or their cousins or their They used to ride motorcycles together.
Those little nuances, I'm afraid, are missed. they don't know they're not from you know Warren, Massachusetts or Sturbridge, Massachusetts.
So you don't necessarily know that I'm not making these names up, the Smiths are related to the Johnsons or whatever.
They don't have that kind of network information.
So that's the stuff I'm afraid gets lost.
And that those are the key pieces that I think could possibly show that there's a tie between Holly and Molly's case. different, you know, ages, different situations and how they were certainly different times.
And again, I keep trying to say, I mean, I think it's so easy to want to believe that one bad guy killing all these girls in a specific area.
The sad reality is that there's a lot of different bad guys and they're all killing different girls or exactly it's like indicative of like a darker pathology as a whole Right.
In the community, you know, that like a subculture isn't looked at.
Yeah. Yeah. Yep, exactly, exactly. And that's what's so scary.
And that's why it's so important to continue to look for ways to protect you know, our children and our women and, you know, our society and, you know, sharing your stories and working on legislation and and encouraging the mental health component I think are just you know such important pieces to continue to talk about and discuss.
And provide reasons why. Yeah. Definitely.
Exactly. I think, oh, sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say real quick, I think one of the really, um, transformative moments for me was when that little girl and I don't know if you remember. maybe two years ago now, there was a little girl abducted in Springfield, Massachusetts.
Yes. And they... She was recovered. I mean, she had been through some pretty bad trauma, but she was recovered alive.
And I called my mom and I said, mom, that was your state because we always, when we started the foundation, we were always like, we don't know. if we're really helping, you know, we don't know if we're saving children.
Like there's no, you know, data system saying oh this kid wasn't abducted because you know maggie this helped bring amber alert to massachusetts or starting this in children's day or you know, started talking about child identification kits.
So when that happened, and my mom did work on the Amber Alert Law coming to Massachusetts, talked Ted Kennedy into signing that bill and so I felt like She needed that.
She needed to know that that little girl had been saved because of her work and her efforts.
And I think if we continue to do things like that, you know, other little girls will be saved and, you know, maybe we won't have to experience these kinds of tragedies and traumas anymore.
And again, if we continue to look at trauma and understand it and and try to support people through it, maybe things will look differently for everybody.
Absolutely. I think that's like the main message right there.
Right. And also your family is there. You are such bad asses.
You have done such incredible work, all of you together.
It's unreal. Thank you. Again, I think it's just, you know, an outlet to love my sister and you know, share that love.
And that's really all you can do when you're faced with something like this.
Yeah, no, it really is. I think kind of just to end all of this, what can what?
What is one last thing you can tell us all that we can do to help you and your family get Molly's case solved?
Well, I think the best thing anyone could do right now is to go on mollyvich.com and find their Massachusetts legislator if they're in Massachusetts and reach out to him or her and ask them to support of 1595 to be passed this year.
If you're not from Massachusetts, you know, continuing to share Molly's story. continuing to share the results of familial DNA analysis across the country.
I mean, right now we only have about 14, 15 states that have it, and there's 50 states in this country. get on get on this because there's certainly molly's case and you know isn't the only case.
I mean, we have friends in Minnesota and Florida who have experienced equally traumatizing abductions in their family.
And, you know, having these tools are important for all of us to have, um, in this country and to keep us all safer.
Absolutely. And I think I want to encourage everyone to go to the Molly Bish Foundation webpage, which we're going to link all of these things in the show notes. so everybody can get to all of this.
Also, if you want to read Bill S. 1595, I'm going to link where you can read that too because you can go on the masslegislator.gov website to find it. uh but i think this is it's important everybody should know that this is like so far-reaching, this is so necessary, it's so important that this bill goes through. everybody give your support yeah as a true crime community let's come together and get this done absolutely Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it. No, thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
And everything you shared was just like.
So eye-opening. Thank you. Yeah, it really was.
This was such an awesome conversation. Thank you.
I really appreciate it. And I just really appreciate you guys and your support and your dedication and, um, you know, being from Massachusetts.
Thank you so much. And we'll absolutely stay in touch.
And if anything else comes up that we can do to help, we really want to help. work with you.
Yeah, we feel very strongly about this case, about you guys, your family, about Molly.
We would love to push this forward in any way we can.
Thank you so very much. I will definitely stay in touch.
Absolutely. You are welcome anytime here.
You have our number now, so text us anytime or call.
Any updates, we'll have you right back on. okay thank you thank you so much heather take care you too Bye.
Bye. So we hope you guys enjoyed that episode.
Yes. I think it was awesome. And you can go to themollybishfoundation.com or excuse me, mollybushfoundation.com to contact your legislators and ask them to support the bill s 1595 yeah and we'll put all that in the show notes so Just look at where you look at the details for the episode and we'll have all the links in there that you can follow.
But do it. I think it's good for everybody.
It's going to benefit us all. It is. And thanks again to Heather for joining us.
Thank you so much, Heather. You were a gem.
So guys, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird.
But that's everything you don't call about BillS1595.
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