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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
And let me tell you, it did. I've been listening to it while I walk, and I am absolutely loving it.
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The sale ends 831. Don't miss it. Hey, weirdos.
I'm Elena. I'm Ash. You are? Yeah, I think.
Do you know what this is? I think, can you tell me?
It's morbid. Oh. Hello. Welcome back for another installment of Tony Costa's Green Thumb. yeah such a good gardener loves the color green never green with envy there you go No, all that's false.
He's a terrible gardener and he's a terrible person and he has a red thumb.
Is what he has. Yes. Yep. You're right. Yeah.
But you know, guys, it's the end of the week.
It's right before the holidays. And we are just crazy.
We're trying. I'm looking at my Christmas countdown, and it's the end of the day right now, and it says...
It says six, but I think it's technically five days till Christmas right now, and then that means like there's only a few more hours of that so realistically there's only four days till christmas and oh my god i'm fucking panicking Yeah, that gives me a lot of stress hives happening right now.
We were just like, what are we supposed to do for Christmas Eve since we can't do anything?
Since we can't see any of our family. family so what do we do together we're all just you know we're all in this together guys everybody feels it I won't sing about it this time I mean I'm here and to just give you the best holiday gift I can give you, which is the story of this turd pile.
Yeah, and I'll have one for you next week even before Christmas.
And it's a crazy one. It's going to be gnarly.
It's the holiday season. Oh, you did a good job.
I had to do it. I had to do it. You're so cute.
The little smirk was great. I had to do it.
So yeah, so we did part two of the Tony Costa case.
Tony Chop Chop. the vampire of Cape Cod, the Cape Cod Casanova, if you will.
I forgot that they called him that. Yeah, they sure did.
I like Tony Chop Chop, though. That's my favorite.
That one's really good. Because it could be like, is he a murderer?
Is he a butcher? Or does he need to hurry up?
Yeah. Or like, is he a butcher? Go to Tony Chop Chop's place.
He has the best prime rib they got. You just don't know what you're getting with Tony.
He also gets another nickname in prison later, and we'll talk about that when we get to it.
But just to give you like a quick little recap of just where we left off so you're not like, wait.
Where are we? They have just discovered the bodies of Patricia Walsh, Marianne Why Socky?
Sorry, I almost said Wall Socky for some weird reason and that is not her name.
There's walls here. Marianne Wysocki, Patricia Walsh, Sydney Monzen, and Susan Perry.
They were all like young girls. All of them had like similar looks.
They were all like very pretty, you know, just like 60s chicks. yeah and those ones were found in the garden and we also have another body like outside of the garden Well, those are all found technically within like the same area of the garden.
So Susan Perry was found a little outside of the garden.
Uh-huh. She had been there for a long time.
Yeah. We also found Patricia Walsh and...
Marianne Wysocki in the garden next to like in graves next to each other and then underneath the two of them we found Sydney Monson, who had been there even longer.
So we have four dead bodies here. Whoa. We have pretty much confirmed through dental records that the two freshest ones were Marian Wysocki and Patricia Walsh.
They had gone missing in Provincetown. They lived in Providence, Rhode Island.
They were just there on like a quick little getaway.
They were staying at a rooming house in P-Town and they came across Tony Costa.
They were never seen again. Yep. So they were found unfortunately dead.
They were all four of them were found dismembered.
And at least like eight pieces each. Susan Perry, I believe her head was in like a plastic bag.
It was brutal. And they all had like a lot of like crazy like cutting up marks to their legs.
Which we'll talk about that too, because we're going to talk about the autopsy reports.
They all had a very similar... weird there was there was something there there was a pathology there that this person who killed them definitely was going through So, when we left, they had just picked up Tony for felony automobile theft, because he had actually stolen Marianne and Patricia's VW Bug.
Yes. And he told about a hundred different stories about it.
And that doesn't stop, by the way. I made sure to like... keep all the different stories he tells, just so you can see how many times he changed his story.
It's truly outrageous. I've never seen this in another case.
No, even in that last part, I was like, Jesus Christ, there was at least five story change And he seems to have no qualms about it.
He's just like... I didn't tell the truth so let me tell you what really happened.
Because I also think that he gets some kind of satisfaction like watching them trying to put together the pieces.
Yeah, because at one point, one of the officers is like, wait, so did they go to Canada or did they go to LA?
And he gets pissed. And he's like, what?
And he's like, well, you've told me about 100 different stories.
I'm just trying to remember which one is the right one.
So I think he does like that he's confusing the hell out of them and marring the investigation with his bullshit. like a jerk he's a jerk he was a jerk haha Spoiler alert.
So last we had, he was arrested. They were charging him with murder because they were going to keep him.
So now they're going to talk to a bunch of people around him because they need to get more than the circumstantial evidence. that they have right now.
They have evidence but it's nothing concrete.
They need to tie him directly to these bodies.
So we had mentioned in the first part, he seems to... to be around a lot of women who disappear randomly.
One of them was named Christine Gallant. who was found in her bathtub in New York.
Supposedly she OD'd. he was in a relationship with her.
Supposedly he like deeply loved her, was like obsessed with her.
He referenced her in the letter that they found torn up.
Yes. In the wastebasket of the boarding house or whatever.
See, you're on it. I know. Yeah, he references her.
Avis, his ex-wife. who at the time I think was like 20 years old, but they married when she was 14, in case you don't remember from the first... part uh Avis had said like when we were not together or because their marriage kind of started falling apart pretty quick And when they were having troubles, they would each step out on each other.
They would bring like lovers into the home and one of these one of the ones that he was going with was Christine Gallant and she was like he loved her like he confided in me that he loved her yeah like that's interesting it's a lot it's definitely a lot But so they spoke to a friend of his who said they were introduced to Tony... through Christine Gallant.
So they wanted to get more information about all this.
Now they were like, okay, like that's strange that like there's more connections here with Christine involved in some of his friends and how he got to know these people.
So they had also found a newspaper clipping about her death. in his wallet oh okay when they booked him bizarre so they were like that's weird and It could be looked at as like he obviously loved her. sure, that's like traumatic if you lose someone you love like that.
Maybe you, I don't know why you would keep the newspaper clipping about her OD death, but like, if anything you would keep like the obituary exactly that's like the little memorial card not like This is how she was killed.
I mean, that would be me. I definitely wouldn't keep the like sad. probably at the time sensationalistic newspaper article about somebody dying in a bathtub.
Unless I did it. Unless you did it and you like being able to look at it.
I'm just saying. So here we are, and Patricia Walsh and Marianne Wysocki, they're identified by dental records.
So we know that the two freshest ones found side by side are Patricia and Marianne, who have been missing since Providence.
The two more decomposed ones, the ones found under Patricia and Marianne and the one found a little bit further away.
Those ones, even though we know now that they were Sidney, Monson, and Susan Perry, they weren't identified yet.
We had no idea who those were. That makes sense.
The families of the... The girls actually had on and off boyfriends, Marianne and Patricia.
Yeah, you had said that. Yeah, so they were like...
They were talking with police the entire time, the families and the boyfriends.
They were doing like suspects at one point.
Absolutely. And they were doing their own like investigations.
Like the boyfriend sounded like they were like really...
Like, it was really sad. And actually, Patricia lived with her boyfriend, Bob.
She grew up in a very Catholic household, and so her parents didn't know that they were living together.
They found out after all of this. And it was like, what a way to what a time to find out.
Seriously. And so at that point, it's like just.
Yeah, it's like just let it go. Like it's honestly.
And he had actually got her name tattooed on him only weeks earlier.
Stop. And when he talked to police, they discovered that through the timeline They figured out that the timeline was such that he was being tattooed with his surprise for Patricia.
No. While she was being murdered. No. Yeah.
Okay. It's so crazy because people do say that's like a bad omen to get your significant other's name tattooed on you. that takes it to a whole nother level like that gave me chills and just to be clear I'm not saying it's a bad omen I'm just saying it's just like one of those things that's been said all the time but like wow yeah that's I know that like really like broke my heart.
So Tony was arraigned and the judge ordered 35 days in Bridgewater. water.
So the hospital. Yeah, yeah. We all know about Bridgewater, Massachusetts.
Hell yeah. He needed to be psychologically evaluated, obviously, because these crimes, you're looking at them and you're like dismemberment, all this crime. like they're heinous something has to be going on here and they were beaten like Exactly.
There's a lot of weird little pathologies here.
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And the bodies were autopsied at this time.
When Dr. George Katzis and Dr. Daniel Heibert autopsied the girl who was buried, beneath Marianne and Patricia, they discovered this.
They said she was 19 years old, Very badly decomposed, obviously.
She was dismembered into four pieces. Her face was badly lacerated.
Ooh. Yeah. And she had the same cut down the chest with the skin flayed back onto the shoulders.
I forgot. about that part yeah they all had that and the doctors ended up calling it the sweater effect Oh I don't like that.
Her kidneys were not found. Her internal genitalia had been eviscerated.
I'm sorry, what? And they couldn't determine exact cause of death because the deterioration of the remains... but it was said that it was death by traumatic injuries.
Wow. Yeah. And so they sent her hand to the state police to take prints as well.
And they had done that with the other unidentified body they had found like a couple of weeks earlier.
That was the one that was a little bit away.
Now, Patricia's autopsy showed swelling and bruising on her forehead and left cheek.
They found a small gunshot wound to the back of her neck.
Oh, wow. had entered the back of the neck and made its way into her mouth and into her left cheek.
The same chest flaying and the eighth rib was broken.
There was three deep and violent stab wounds on her chest as well.
Another stab to the left of her spine and it had severed a major artery that was close to her heart.
Her liver was stabbed twice. across the buttocks and legs were a ton, like you were saying a ton of deep, like vicious slices.
Weird. Like lacerations. It's also really odd to shoot somebody and then stab them.
Yeah. That's overkill. Well we'll find out somewhat about what happened in it that'll come yeah clear it doesn't have a theory it's not okay but So what's weird is these lacerations to the legs seem to have been done post-mortem.
Mm-hmm. because there was no hemorrhaging around it, nothing.
So this is, it's strange. Yeah, it's just very weird.
She had no injury to her genitalia. Okay.
So there's that. Now Marianne had bruising or injury to the face, or excuse me, she had no bruising or injury to the face except for a broken nose.
There was a bullet wound against the occipital bone to the back of her head and a second bullet wound behind her left ear.
Wow. She survived the first gunshot, they figured out.
And they said this gunshot was done while she was running away from her killer.
That was my theory. And the second shot was done while she was on her knees.
Execution? Yep. Because the bullet appeared to be done at close range and while the killer was clearly standing above her head.
Oh, wow. She had the same chest flaying, same sweater effect.
Right side of the chest had five deep stab wounds. a puncture hole beneath her left shoulder blade and a stab to her liver as well.
A puncture hole is different than being stabbed?
Yeah, it wasn't like a stab. It was like a puncture.
Like it was something like a screwdriver.
Yeah. Like just something else that wasn't that.
Yeah. It's very strange. This is even stranger.
Oh. He had cut an outline of skin from her pelvis that made it look like underwear.
So he had removed the skin on her pelvis to look like underwear.
Wow. Yeah. this is bizarre. And you would almost, I don't know if this is just me being like weird or like misinformed, but you almost would think that he had some kind of background in, like, like not surgery, but well that you would think that cause you're like, wow, you're doing so much like dissection and like, but he was bad at it.
In fact, the doctor said this is someone with no medical background. points where when he dismembered he like cut through vertebrae so like he would cut like into the middle of a vertebrae like which is not like why would you do that's really difficult yeah it's just a really weird thing and it's sloppy as fuck yeah So, yeah, he was.
But I guess this was done pretty. I mean, that takes time.
Yeah, that's like he had to have sat there.
And like flayed the skin in that shape. He really liked to do that.
Or at least you could assume maybe they're a butcher.
Like what? yeah and he was none of that yeah he's a handyman yeah he's a handyman hippie And her legs were slashed like the other ones as well.
And they discovered she was stabbed while in the process of dying.
Oh. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So both Patricia and Marianne showed signs of having been raped. post-mortem.
Oh. Necrophilia. Yep. We'll get back to that later.
Now, remember, we just found out that they died from, or at least were shot with a gun before they died.
Right. Right. Well, do you remember in the first part when Tony first said his 100 stories about how he... he became into possession of the VW van or the bug.
He mentioned in one version that he, a guy named Steve and a guy named Timmy, went out into the forest, weed, went out into the forest and found the car.
Yes. The police talked to them. They heard the weird stories about Tony being a creep.
And Timmy Atkins mentioned that Tony had wanted to sell him a gun at some point.
Yes. Yep. It was Tim who said, or excuse me, it was Steve who said not to buy it. because he feared that it was hot or tied to some crime or something.
So he was like, yeah, don't do it. Always trust your gut, weed.
Well. Atkins back in to ask him more about this 22 gun that Tony wanted to sell him.
Same story. He said he didn't buy it. But then it came up during this conversation that Atkins, so Timmy Atkins, He had gone out of town to Connecticut last year with an 18-year-old girl named Susan Perry.
What? Yeah, does that sound familiar? Uh-huh, it does.
Now, Susan Perry, in case you're like, which one is she?
Her mother is the one that She had reported her missing as soon as that unidentified girl was found initially in Tony's garden.
But her mom was the one where it was like six months later.
She was the one that was like, well, hippies are weird.
So I didn't report her missing. She was the one that we were like, yeah, mom. okay yeah uh but they asked if tony had come they were like okay so you went out of town to connecticut with this girl that was missing.
And again, at this point, they don't know if that's her or not, that unidentified body.
But they're like weird because she's missing.
Now you're connected to her. And then they were like, wait a second.
Because at this point, they don't know Tony has anything to do with her.
Yeah. So they were like, wait a second. Did Tony come in contact with her?
Yeah. And he says, actually, yeah, I heard she had gone to Dedham around Labor Day to stay with Tony.
I was going to say, because they like dated or something, right?
Yes. And he said no one had seen her after that.
So the police were stunned. They were like, oh shit.
Like thanks for that golden nugget. Why is Tony connected to all of these missing girls?
So they spoke to another friend of Tony's and he also confirmed that he had known Susan Perry was living with Tony and Dedham around Labor Day.
And then he said he saw Tony one day and I think he said he saw him like on like the Common. or something, which is just funny to hear all these places that we're like, yeah, I know there.
I know. It's also really funny for me because Because I worked in all these places.
I know. That's the thing. Like I used to walk through the common to go to work.
I literally work in Boston right now. And I also used to work in Dedham.
Like I was just there. And it's just so weird.
It is. And so he said he saw Tony one day and he's like, oh, where's Susan?
Like, I haven't seen her in a little while.
And he told him she had a bad LSD trip and then ran off to Mexico.
Why are all these people going to Mexico and Canada and LA after they chill with you?
So she just had a bad LSD trip and then was like, Gotta leave the country.
I mean, that shit will change you. See you later.
So now people after all this, now that these bodies are found and it's all over everywhere, I mean, the news is going crazy.
So now people start calling from all over New England saying, my teen girl went missing. and was in P-Town or Truro around the area.
Uh-oh. But the police are obviously focused now on Susan Perry and Sidney Monson because there's connections here.
Yeah. So, tourists are trying to see the grave sites now, which I get it.
But it makes it hard to conduct an investigation.
In the middle of an investigation... Hold off.
It's not time yet. You're being rude. Hold off.
Like, too soon. Some say strike while the iron is hot.
That doesn't apply to murder scenes. Yeah, you just let the investigators do their thing.
Let some wounds heal a little bit. Give it a year.
You know what now? in 2020 the year of our lord uh it's fine to go now totally like we're we're far past it it's okay Like next time I go to P-Town, I'm stopping in Toronto.
Yeah, we're going to find that place. Hell yeah.
We're going to make a road trip out of that.
Don't worry about it. But yeah, so the tourists are really starting to get in on this madness and so much. that the chief of Truro police said the press is bad, but the tourists are much worse.
I believe that. Yeah. They were coming from, and people were coming from everywhere too to try to like help the investigation.
You're like, no. You're not helping. And, of course, like, Truro and P-Town and all these places are very tight-knit communities.
Oh, yeah. Small towns. So people are also, I mean, they probably are helping a little bit in some ways because people are trying to be like, I know this person and I saw this person with this person. trying to make connections for them.
Yes, of course. Now, finally... They identified using those fingerprints.
It took forever. They were waiting on like pins and needles.
I believe. they finally identified the other two decomposed bodies as sydney monzen and susan perry So now shit is like kicking into high gear.
They're like, wow, we have four identified bodies in like a very small stretch of land. and they are all connected to tony but they can't connect him with like solid shit yet yeah which is so frustrating.
So March 31st, 1969, Tony had his first psychological evaluation at Bridgewater State Hospital.
How'd that go? This is what his report said.
Okie doke. During his current period of observation, patient has been cooperative and oriented in all spheres.
He appears to be of average intelligence that probably goes up his ass.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, he's like, fuck you in that report.
Damn it. With a full scale IQ of 121, the EEG performed here was evaluated as normal.
He appeared apprehensive but exhibited very little anxiety.
His thoughts Yeah. His memory for recent and remote events showed no impairment.
It is the opinion of the staff that patient shows no sign of an overt psychosis. is certainly in contact with his surroundings, knows the nature and objects of his charades, and the possible consequence and appears to be able to assist counsel in his own defense.
All right. So basically they're like, he's fine.
He's fit to stand trial. He's just a dick.
And it's like, oh, that's not good for him.
That's not good for him at all. Like, you need to be labeled insane in this situation. situation you really need it because you're going away for a long time and yeah would help you to go away somewhere else it is not looking good for him So they have that now.
Well, on May 31st, they start doing polygraph exams.
Now these polygraph exams last, they like do a ton of them with this guy named Charlie Zimmerman.
Sure. He's like very well known. He polygraphed all the Boston Strangler suspects.
Oh, cool. So he's like, you know, a big shot.
Yeah. So they started doing this with him and it was Charlie Zimmerman who actually really got a ton of shit out of uh tony like kind of built some kind of trust he really did so immediately tony said Like, as soon as he came in and was like, all right, we're going to start this, they start doing their baseline thing.
Immediately, Tony's like... I have not been telling the truth up until this point.
No way. And it's like he saw the machine and was like, I'm not going to get past that.
And so he was like, now, you know, I'm going to tell the truth because I want these tests to be accurate.
Oh, yeah. And Charlie Zimmerman's like, very nice of you.
Awesome. Thanks for not wasting my time.
As soon as they start. the question is like, do you know who killed these girls?
And he's like, yes, I do. Oh. And they're like, oh, okay.
And then he was like, it was just one person.
And they were like, is that one person you told?
And he's like, no. What the hell? He said, it's Corey Dubrow, of course.
Uh-huh. And they were like, okay, like, who's that?
Bye. Now, he gave no motive. Just that Corey is a friend of his.
Told him he did it. And then he was like, what's crazy is like, he just, he used my gun.
So that's weird. What? And they were like, did he tell you like what happened?
And he was like, no. And they were like so what did he tell you?
And he was like he just told me he killed all of them.
And you didn't ask any further questions, Tony?
And they were like, well, why did he use your gun?
And he was like, he just had it. Why though?
And they were like, why? And he was like, oh, no further questions.
I don't know. Why did you take it back after he killed people with it?
Yeah, so then they keep going and weirdly enough, he failed that polygraph exam.
That is, you know, just the craziest thing I've heard all day. at this point and he's like very good psychologically with him because he'll be like listen, you need to trust me, Tony.
You need to have trust in your, like the person administering this test.
Yeah. And if you don't trust me, like I can't trust you and blah, blah, blah.
Like the whole thing's going to get fucked up.
And he keeps pressing him. And he keeps like using the machine being like, listen, Tony, look right here. it spiked right that is telling me not it's not giving me details but it's telling me you know more than you're telling me Right.
And you need like fess up or this test isn't going to work.
And you said you wanted an accurate test.
And every time he does that, he gets a little more out of him.
I really suggest reading In His Garden by Leo D'Amore because He goes in like vivid detail.
I mean, it's like an 800 page book or something.
It's a lot. He goes in such detail about all of these polygraph exams and the way that he gets that shit out of him is truly, it'll have you like. sucked in mind blown it really is so he failed that one so he ends up leaving saying you know Tony I can't complete the test today like you didn't give me the accurate answer so we'll be back i love that he's treating him like a straight up child he literally he's like you didn't do your job So now we have to come back.
No dessert for you tonight. We'll try again tomorrow.
Just saying. So June 7th, he has the second polygraph exam.
Okay. So now he's like, now I want to tell the truth.
And he was like, but I thought you told me the truth last time.
And he's like, well, I didn't because you showed me I didn't. he's like yes he's like i know that you know that we know that wasn't the truth exactly so he's like here's what happened he's like i'm still sticking with cory did it And they were like, who the fuck is Corey?
Like, but they're like, okay. Do you think he's like trying to make it seem like, well, you do know, but I was like, Like, is he trying to make it seem like he's somebody else?
Like he has like multiple personalities.
Kind of. Okay. That comes up. Okay. So Corey told him, he was like, Corey just randomly told me like, whoops.
I killed a bunch of women. Can you help me?
No. Because I need to get rid of them. No.
And Tony was like, okay. Sure, I'll accomplish you with murder.
So he was like, I will just accomplish you with murder.
Thank you very much. But so Tony's like, okay, yeah, sure.
And he's like, where did this occur? And he's like, uh, you're in your garden act like in your marijuana patch.
And he was like his garden. And he was like, alright, alright.
So he said he pulled up to his garden and there was just a pile of dismembered bodies.
He said he literally saw, he goes, it was a pile of dismembered bodies.
Stop. And he just pulled up and Tony's just in there like, eh?
Like all of them at once just chill in there.
Like, can you just picture this dude being like that? no like oh we gotta fix this no like no like get out of my face just chop up four dead bodies and then pile them all up on each other and be like well and why were I'd be like cool so why were they like different levels of decomposed to me.
Exactly and that's why they're like okay Tony.
No. And he was like so what did you do when you pulled up and saw this dismembered, this pile of dismembered bodies and he was like threw up it was terrible oh and he was like i don't know if you know this about me but and i'm sure the test will show i hate blood It freaks me out.
I get sick. That's a lie. And it was like, and it just like spiked immediately.
And he was like, well, the test is telling me that no, that it's not true.
And he's like, well, that's wrong. Maury like runs in the room.
He's like, yeah, you're also not the father.
He was like, and that's a lie. So now everyone is like, okay, who's Corey?
And why would you not say this three months ago when you were arrested for You dumbass.
Yeah, like what? You were arrested for that. four murders why didn't you go oh hey I didn't do it Corey did like why didn't you just pull that card out and like then we could have gone and investigated Corey.
And you would not be here in Bridgewater State Hospital.
Like, are you dumb? Or is Corey in your mind? well and he was like yeah I didn't think they had that much on us so I figured I could get both of us out of it Okay.
So this is him being like, I'm smarter than you, I think.
So I thought I could... like outsmart all of you and get us both out of it.
I'm of average intelligence. I'm way smarter.
I'm so much smarter than you. So then there's a third polygraph exam that they have to give him.
And this is the one where they start off the same way.
He's like, Corey did it. you know, dot, dot, dot.
And he was like, do you know how he did it?
And he's like, nope, don't know how I did it.
I just showed up. They were dead. Whoops.
And then this one though, he goes, okay, i have to admit something so we've got to remember this is the third one now we're on Story number three has come up.
Third time is the charm. So story number three is he's like, all right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just showed up and they were all there.
And, you know, I didn't know what to do.
So they were like, and he says, so they're like, okay, so did you help him in any Like, why did he call you there?
Like, did you just bury them? You know, you said they were already cut up and he's like, So I cut them up with him.
Okay. And so now we're getting somewhere.
Now he's in... Again, Charlie Zimmerman is like...
And he keeps saying, he keeps saying, Tony, you were more involved.
And he keeps telling him like, this test is showing me that you were more involved.
So just tell me how involved you were. Like he keeps telling him like, just...
Just answer what the test is telling me.
Just give me what you need. So he keeps becoming more involved.
And he keeps admitting more and more. And so they're like, cool, cool.
So now they have Dr. Harold Williams, a psychiatrist, come in.
He studied medicine at Harvard Medical School and he had done a residency in psychiatry at Mass General Hospital in Boston.
Hey, yo. And they were like, you need to take a crack at Tony now.
Like, let's see what you think. Right. So he said he definitely had like a superiority thing.
He thinks he was better and smarter than all those around him, very superior.
He thought he avoided human emotions by keeping himself kind of above human contact Oh He was only average intelligence again.
He agreed. He was like, he thinks he's really smart.
He's really not. Right. And he was like, he uses... you know, ways of speaking that would make him appear intelligent, but they're really just ways to sound smarter.
He probably comes off that. He probably, like, picked it up from other smart people.
Exactly. It's just parroting other people.
Right. And he said... Even though he comes off as very superior, he actually has an inferiority complex.
I think a lot of people that have... I think superiority...
How do you say that? Superiority. It's hard to say that kind of complex.
And an inferiority complex. Inferiority.
Jesus Christ. I think they both go hand in hand.
I think so too. It's like you have to have one to have the other.
Yeah. And he said this is why he married a 14-year-old as a grown-ass adult to make sure that she was always below him and he was always... always above her.
Like that was his way of making sure he's superior.
And these girls are all of these girls are younger than him.
Exactly. And he's very into teen girls because they stroke his ego and make him feel more superior.
Yes. He had trained Avis, his ex-wife, to do things she wasn't comfortable with sexually.
We talked about that in the first episode.
Right. He used to put a bag over her head and suffocate her until she was... unconscious or give her tranks and stuff and like sedatives to put her out so that he could have sex with her when she was unconscious because that's what he liked.
Yeah, if that's your thing, that might be an issue.
Exactly. So he saw this as, he basically saw this whole thing as practicing for the real thing. right he was getting more and more thrills out of this and he was like now i can do it for real he said cory was he said the cory thing was basically, he felt it was like a Jekyll and Hyde situation.
Yeah. So... He said, "...this man suffers from a severe sociopathic personality disturbance."
He is a modern day... Marquis de Sade. I didn't know if I said that right, so I found the pronunciation for you guys.
And I was just like, just like hold that up.
Just hold it up. Marquis de Sade. So yeah, he said he's a modern day Marquis de Sade.
I thought it was DeSade. Maybe pronunciation.com is wrong.
Well, it's like an accent thing. Marquis de Sade.
He is, in my opinion, a sexually dangerous man and is capable of committing murder.
You don't say, brother. So he was like, ding dong.
Now, in case you don't know who Marquis de Sade is it's an 18th century French nobleman best known for his erotic works. which combined philosophical discourse with pornography, depicting sexual fantasies with an emphasis on violence, suffering, criminality and blasphemy against Christianity.
He gained notoriety for putting these fantasies into practice with both consenting and non-consenting people.
See, the non-consenting is where it gets weird.
No good. That's no good. Nope. Now, as...
Like, just a quick aside, as he was trying to convince Charlie Zimmerman that he was, like, so shocked coming upon the scene of dead bodies...
He said, quote, it's not every day I go out into the woods and find something like that right in front of me.
It's not part of my metabolism. My makeup.
My metabolism. Metabolism. It's not part of the chemical process in your body cells that aids in converting food to energy?
No, it's not. That's not part of my metabolism.
I'm shocked. I was just like... There you go.
There's a perfect example of I say big words.
I say things that sound eloquent. I don't know what they mean.
It's like a perfect way to just like, there's the evidence.
It's not part of my metabolism. It's not part of his metabolism to come into the woods and find a pile of dead dismembered bodies.
It's not part of most people's or anyone's metabolism for that matter.
I mean, yeah. Like, why wouldn't you just say chemical makeup?
Because he's dumb. Even that doesn't take a lot to say. well he's you know average intelligence he's like it's not part of my um sleep patterns It's not part of the calories that I eat daily.
He kept acting like through this whole thing he's saying like he had respect for these girls And he was just helping out by burying them because he didn't want them to just be left out like that.
And like, he just wanted to, you know, get them out of sight for goodness sake.
They can't just be left out there. Well, it's like, did you think that he was going to leave them out there?
No. And you listen to this and you're like, you dick.
Because he's sitting there like, I had great respect for them.
How dare you suggest anything else? You're expecting me to believe that what's the other guy's name george um no this is uh cory cory i don't know why i said george cory george whatever You're expecting me to believe that this guy killed all these girls and just left them in a pile while he went to grab you? and didn't think anyone was going to stumble across that pile of dead bodies.
No. And you know what? He definitely thinks that because his next story gets even crazier.
I'm so excited. So the next story Zimmerman got out of him was all four of them, Marianne, Patricia, Corey, and Tee. went out to his garden together all alive to get heroin like a shipment of heroin that had been left there and they had been waiting for it.
And he said when they got out there into the woods at 11 p.m., Patricia was so psyched about this heroin and she wanted some right away because, you know, she had done it.
Many times before. Oh, yeah. This like girl that tutors Catholic school students for sure.
Exactly. And Marion was nervous because she had never had heroin, but she was like, oh boy, got to try that heroin.
So she was like, I want to do it now. And it's like, what?
That doesn't make any sense. Apparently Corey, according to Tony, Corey is just this like drug addled mess.
So Corey was like, yeah. Yes, let's do it together.
Is this the Ozarks? What is happening? It is something scary.
I can tell you that. Well, so all three of them are like, I know this is a shipment of heroin that we're all psyched to have and we're going to sell it and we're going to make a lot of money.
But like, I want to do it. Which, no. That doesn't make sense.
That doesn't make any sense. You'd get in a lot of trouble, I feel.
So Tony, of course, said like... Guys, I don't want to.
We can't. We can't do it, guys. We mustn't.
We have to get back. No. For curfew. I cannot.
So he said he didn't want to. So he was walking back to the car.
By himself. You know what, if Tony is one thing, if we've learned something about Tony, it's that he is straight edge.
He is not doing drugs. He's not doing anything like that.
Straight edge. Just kidding. He has X's on his hands.
Tony's entire defense relies on him being like the heaviest drug user of all time.
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Now he said, as he's walking back to the car, oh no, I heard a gunshot.
Uh-oh. Like, whoa. And he said this car was only like a little ways away down the road, not a long walk away.
Now, then they get this whole tale from him about how he ran back after he heard the gunshot.
Because what's going on? He ran up upon Patricia shot on the ground, face down on the ground. oh no and he said she was definitely dead because you know he has he's a medical examiner so that's good and Marianne and Corey were just off somewhere and he was like where did they go so he finds Corey in the woods shooting Marianne.
Wow. And he said it was over an argument that occurred over heroin.
Within the five minutes that Tony was walking back to the car, They had gotten in such a heated argument over heroin that Marianne had never done before.
That he ended up shooting both of them. That makes perfect sense.
It makes a lot of sense. I'm buying it. Then he said Corey just started wildly stabbing Marion.
And he was shocked. Yeah. He was shocked.
I can see how he's trying to make it seem like he was watching this in his head.
Oh, yeah. He is sitting there being like, I was disgusted.
I was shocked. I was frozen in terror. Yeah.
Well, and I feel like he's trying to make it seem like later it's going to come out that he is Corey and it's like, oh, I'm crazy and I was watching this happen.
Yeah, Tony's watching it. yeah but whatever's occurring in front of me isn't my problem right somebody else totally exactly So here's where it gets even better because he's like, oh my God, he's stabbing Marianne.
What's happening? So he goes, I just punched him.
Oh, I punched Corey because I'm a hero while he has a gun and a knife.
He's literally like you can just see me like, don't call me a hero.
I did what anyone would do. Oh, my God.
But I just, you know, that's what he was like.
I did what any decent human being would do.
I punched him. And he said, and then this is this part will, I then took his knife. and threw it to the side, which is, that's funny that that will put your fingerprints on the knife and that will account for any fingerprints on the knife.
Good job. I mean, there's your intelligence.
All right. He then said he carried... Mary Ann over to Pat while Corey was like recovering from being punched.
Because he was just so concerned. And then he was like, you know and then I did help him cut them up after but I had such great respect for those girls when they were like wait So you punched Corey in the face because you were so like scared of him and like horrified by what he did.
And then you helped him cut them up. And he was like, you know, that's just, that's who I am.
I'll just help people. I'm a giver. Okay, Tony.
Okay, Tony Chop Chop. That's fine. So they're like, okay, what happened next?
And he's like, well... you know, he didn't say he, so he said, I helped him chop them up.
And then he said, I cut up Marianne and Corey cut up Pat.
So now he's getting a little more specific here.
It's starting to come down to more details, but they have to pull this out so slowly.
Like over like days, I bet. Now, Sydney and Susan...
Those two, he said he didn't know anything about their deaths.
He didn't know anything about them. He's only confessing to being... aware and present for marianne and patricia's at this point he's like they were just in the pile that uh yeah he left that cory left there Oh yeah.
Well now, and that's the other thing. So they were like, Oh yeah.
The pile. Cause they said like, so that whole thing about him just calling you and telling you and you showing up as that.
And he was like, yeah, That's rubbish. That's not real.
So he's saying that Sydney and Susan were at the heroin thing too?
No, he's saying Sydney and Susan weren't anywhere.
He doesn't know anything about them. oh okay so now he's totally retracted Jesus Christ if I was one of these investigators I'd need to get a notebook Because now at the heroin thing, it was just him and Corey and Marianne and Patricia.
What the fuck? He's focusing on the Providence girls.
He's not. And now they were like, all right, so what about Sydney and Susan?
And he's like, oh, I don't know anything about them. and they were like do you know them and he was like kind of like i like i've been around them and stuff but i don't know anything about him Kind of.
I just like lived with Susan for a minute.
Well, then he was like, oh, you know what?
But Corey did tell me that he killed them, too.
Yeah. And he was like, oh, okay. So you do know something about them.
And he's like, not really, I don't know anything.
He did tell me that two other guys named Eddie and Ronald were also involved in that.
So now he's just implicating anybody he's ever known, I think.
He's like, do you know fucking Ronald Weasley?
He's in on it. That crazy ginger, he was totally in on this.
There was this other guy named Neville there, too.
And they're just like... What is happening?
Come on. So they're like, okay. See you again, Tony.
And so they leave for the next one. They come back and he's like.
I've changed it again. You know whoever was giving this polygraph test, the guy that was doing it.
Charlie Zimmerman. he was waking up for work every morning being like god damn it me i need to call in today i gotta talk to tonic Again.
Imagine that job. So the last ones he's been saying that this all occurred on Sunday, on like a Sunday night.
Okay. Well, now he's like, no, it's not Sunday night.
It was actually Saturday during the day that this happened.
And then after the shooting and stabbing and all that, They left Marianne and Patricia where they lie, in the bushes.
So they shot them in the middle of the day.
And stabbed them. And left them there. And then he said, we left them there and we came back Saturday night because that's when the bodies would be cooler and easier to dismember because it would be less blood.
What? And they were like, okay. So then again...
Police are looking into their backgrounds again because they're like, now we got to double check and make sure there's no drug use in their backgrounds to like really get this story gone.
Right. And they had no drug use, like none, not one.
Again, I say, I think it was Patricia that had like smoke weed before and that's it.
Yeah. Now, then they found Corey. Oh, so he's a real person.
Okay. I know. I did not think he was real. honestly reading this I didn't know if he was real either he's a real person Okay.
What did he do to piss off Tony? Well, when they told him, you know, this is what's being said, he was... and he was definitely like he was a petty thief and He used drugs as well, like they all did in the 60s.
But he didn't have a violent past or anything like close to this on his record.
Also, he was only 17 years old. Oh, my God.
So he's going to try to get this 17-year-old put away for murder?
Exactly. And this guy is in his, like... mid to late 20s.
Right. For quadruple murder. Now, police knew he didn't do it.
They knew that Corey did not do this. And Corey said he didn't even, he was like, I didn't even know Marianne or Patricia.
Like I didn't even know who they are. Yeah.
The only time I've heard of them is in the news.
Right. And then he's like, I didn't even see Tony that weekend.
I haven't seen him for a while. How did they know each other, do you know?
They had just met, I guess, somewhere because Tony liked to hang out with teenagers. so he would end up and he was like we like smoked weed a few times and like did some drugs like we didn't so they were like acquaintances yeah and he was like we didn't really like you know form he was just around like he was like we hung out for a little while but he's like He said something about how they stopped hanging out for a while because actually Corey's parents were like, it's weird that this older guy wants to hang out with you.
Like you need to stop. Andy was like, he just was kind of like not into hanging out with her.
I think he had a girlfriend at the time and he said he was spending more time with her.
So he kind of like pulled away. 17-year-old things.
Lots of reasons. And when they asked him to take a polygraph at first, he was like, I'll get back to you on that.
Well, because that's a scary thing. It is scary.
It is scary. But he ends up taking one. that little wavering in the beginning was probably just a 17 year old being like I don't Do drugs.
Are you going to get me in trouble? Yeah, exactly.
He's like, it's the 60s. So July 12th, 1969, he confesses, Tony does. to Charlie Zimmerman that he in fact used the knife on Marianne. while she was alive.
So now he's saying he killed Marianne. Okay.
He said she was gurgling after Corey shot her.
So everything up until that point he's keeping.
And he's going to be a hero. Exactly. He stabbed her to take her out of her misery.
Oh, I knew it. Yep. he said Corey he said so I stabbed her once it was under her breastbone and he says i just needed that gurgling to stop and it stopped like i was so happy to hear it stop because i just couldn't watch her suffer And then he said, suddenly Corey just went bonkers and started stabbing her all over.
Because if we remember, Marion had several stab wounds.
Yes. So he says that was all, that was Corey. and he also says in the same interview he was like and I have something else to tell you and they were like what and he said I slept with Patricia The day before.
See, now you're just trying to like brag.
You're accounting for that semen that they found.
That's what you're doing. Oh, I forgot about that.
And... The way he described it, and I'm just like, wow, this guy.
He described that night with Patricia as a groovy night.
Stop. I just had to like that, like a groovy night.
I wish groovy was like still a used adjective. let's just let's bring it back bring back groovy 2021 yes what was my 2020 strategy was uh like tell them off 2020 or something like that.
Oh, what was it i know call them out call them out 2020 now it's bring back groovy 2021 yes And you know what?
It belongs in 2021. It better be. Doesn't belong in 2020. so now he's accounting for the fingerprints on the murder weapon yes and the semen the semen that they found so he's Covering his using his wiles here.
So now he has another story to tell. Oh my god I don't know if I can take another one.
Now he's bringing up Susan Perry again. Okay.
And he says Susan Perry died of an OD of heroin at Corey's house.
They're like, that's really weird because we didn't find any needle marks on her arm.
Nope. And then he says Corey's mom actually came home.
And found her the bathroom like a mess because Corey had dismembered this girl in the bathtub.
Yeah, and the mom didn't record that time. like violently dismembered.
So he says, Corey's mom knows. And the interviewers are like, Yeah, and I guess Charlie Zimmerman said he immediately thought that this was something that might have actually happened and that it was Tony who did that and that his mom might know.
You know, I think his mom knew a little more than she said.
This seems like it might have been... him using an actual memory of what happened and just putting it in its place.
Because the mom was, I feel like when she called him was like, oh, where's his hairdryer?
I feel like. There's some weird shit. And honestly, I agree like that.
This could definitely be a real memory that he's conjured up that he has just disassociated from and is using Corey as the... the vessel yeah for it but I mean he's also a nutcase and very well could just be making he could just be pulling this out of his ass.
Because he seems to be an expert in that.
He definitely is. He said Corey took him out.
So then he's like, okay, so... You know, now Susan has died of an OD at his house, at Corey's house.
Yeah. And he said, so Corey told me about it.
He's just always telling me about these things.
I'm a great person to confide in. And he said Corey took him out to the garden with him And he said he actually dug up Susan Perry's body to show him.
Yeah, I mean, I get. Yeah, totally. Which which the interviewers are like, why, though?
And he was like, I don't know. proof, but he did.
So they were like, okay. He's like, I've seen tips.
So he said about Sidney Monzen, he said, I know nothing about that.
They're like, cool, we'll wait till like next week.
And they were like, okay, that's fine. And he's like, I do know that Corey said she died.
And they were like, so Corey killed her?
And he was like, no, no, no. She died. Corey said she died.
He didn't say he killed her. So he Martin, of course, he he painted all these women as huge drug users.
He made sure. to paint them. He was trying to paint them almost in the way of they deserved what they got yeah kind of thing and this is something he does he tries to like i wonder if he was trying to convince himself that oh he definitely was for sure Um, so he of course paints Sydney as a huge drug user too and said it was, he was like, you know what, she died. apparently around cory and he said it was probably an od or something that's so again So he claimed he barely knew her, Sydney.
Yeah. He hinted at all about, and then in the same interview, he hinted. about being the cause of Christine Gallant's death aha and this Christine is the one who he carries the paper yes And referenced in the letter.
And then he also hinted that he might have been the cause of Barbara Spaulding's death.
Barbara Spaulding was the girlfriend he moved in with in San Francisco after him and Avis separated oh yeah and she one day went to drop her child off with her parents and was never seen again that is Crazy.
Yes. So now they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And he's just kind of like hinting at it like he's not saying what he did, but it's coming off that way.
Should have done it. And then do you remember in the beginning of the story?
Probably not. During the marriage to Avis.
She said he just drove out to California once and like picked up two girls and was driving them to California.
Yes, I do remember. Yeah. And they were never seen again?
Yeah, so crazy. He labeled them the Diggers?
Stop. And he said to Zimmerman about them, quote, one of these times I'll tell you about him if you really want to hear a story.
I love that he's acting like they're old pals meeting up for coffee at Dunk.
And Zimmerman's like, no. He's like, I am actually assigned to this case for a little while and I really don't want to drag it on.
Don't really. I'm actually very sick of you, to be quite honest.
If you just like to let me know right now, that'd be so grand.
Like, it would be... So dope of you. So dope.
He's like, do you see what I did there? cory i mean so fucking dope tony of you i mean cory tony same thing so groovy The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
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The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
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I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
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So Dr. Harold Williams, who had already said that he was sexually dangerous.
Yes. He said he was like a lot of these assholes and had disdain for women.
That's clear. Yeah, obviously. And he said it was possibly triggered by his mother remarrying quickly and having another child with this man.
I am very angry at that statement. Oh, 100%.
He wasn't saying it's because of that. He's saying...
In his mind. Oh, yeah. No, that was a betrayal to him.
Right. I wasn't. I'm not that like that's how Tony interpreted. yeah exactly like clearly it wasn't that but like he's saying like in his warped mind He looks at it as like, she betrayed me.
How dare her? It's like, wow, you should grow up.
Yeah. He wanted women to be unrealistically pure and chaste.
Like he wanted them all to be like very like he wanted these women he considered unclean and like not pure.
And any other woman that wasn't pure and chaste was treated as trashy whores like he said like that's what he was basically looking at them as yeah And he likely was a psychopath who they said would do, would ego split. which is basically that he disassociates during these episodes and he developed a personality that, labeled Corey even though Corey is a real person yeah and he did bad things as Corey But this also allows him to still be Tony, the innocent bystander that just happens to have all the insider information onto what cory was doing i'm telling you dude this really would make a great movie it really would He had actually said that the Diggers, as he referred to them, were likely his first murders.
And he said they were likely murdered because he was heavily into drugs at that point and his marriage was crumbling.
And he needed to freak out. outside things that will trigger him to lose it.
And this is when these episodes happen. Like he can't handle rejection.
He can't handle like chaos in his life. So he says that was probably the reason for that.
Then he says living with Barbara Spaulding He was arrested for child support around that time for failing to pay child support.
And he said, so he probably lost it on Barbara because of that.
And he said Sidney Monzen was killed after he was found to be a police informant and his friends had kind of distanced themselves from him.
Ah, shit. So there's that. And then he killed Susan Perry after another girlfriend had broken up with him.
So Williams also theorized that Christine Galant's death could have He said that might have been a suicide pact between them that he backed out on.
And he said it could have been intentional that he backed out on it, or it could have been he just... just didn't do it interesting uh because what's weird is also she had three burns on her chest Yeah, yeah, you inferred that in the beginning.
So there were like some things off there.
Right. There's definitely, he's involved some way in that death.
Now, what do they theorize for Marianne and Patricia?
Marianne and Patricia, they think That was basically just... He just liked it at this point.
And they said maybe it was just, like, who knows what that could be.
Wrong place, wrong time. Honestly, it's probably mostly they were going to blame it more on like drugs and all that stuff.
But July 29th, Corey had another, or excuse me, Corey had his first polygraph exam.
Okay, Corey. Because he finally was like, yep, you know what, I'll do it.
This is when Corey was like, I'll take a poly.
17 year old Corey. Because again, he wavered for a minute, but that's fine.
I don't blame him. His mom had to sign to allow him to do this because he's literally a child.
He passed with flying colors. Yeah. So no fingerprints on Tony's gun, but his own. so they even asked him they were like how is cory's fingerprints not on the gun that he shot them with and you said you didn't shoot anybody And what did he have to say about that?
And he was like, I don't know how that could be.
That doesn't make any sense. Now, over and over and over in these interviews, Tori said he didn't have sexual relations with or really any relations with Susan Blanchard.
Perry okay then he finally then finally he randomly said okay I slept with her okay Cool.
He also said she drove the car when he robbed the doctor's office that he was doing handyman work for a few years ago.
That's rude of you to implicate somebody.
So at first he's saying he didn't have any relationship with Susan Perry.
Nothing. He barely knew this girl. It wouldn't be able to pick her out of the lineup.
Now he's like, I slept with her and she was the fucking getaway car in a robbery I did.
Yeah, totally. Totally. Like, dude, like you can't, you're not even easing into these truths.
You're just like, whoops, I totally lied.
So he changed the original few stories again, now saying that the murders of Marianne and Patricia happened Sunday night.
Again, now he's going forward to Sunday instead of Saturday again.
And now he's saying he had nothing to do with it.
Okay. And oh wait, he changed it again.
He changed it? He was there. He found Marianne wounded in the bushes after hearing a ruckus.
A ruckus. A ruckus. After hearing a ruckus.
I heard such a ruckus out there. I hear a ruckus in there.
So he heard a ruckus and he went into the ruckus and he shot her twice.
So now he's saying I shot her twice. I heard a ruckus and I just said, you know what?
Bang, bang. So then he says me and Corey ran away and we came back Tuesday.
So we just left them where they are for two days.
They're like, you know what? Drop Corey because he passed the polygraph.
Yeah, and then he says, we came back with two other guys and they dismembered and buried them.
But he said he didn't cut them up. The others did.
Because again, he doesn't like blood ash.
No. He doesn't like it. No. No, no, no.
One more story. Back to the original. I'm losing my mind.
We're back to the original where he went out there with Corey and the girls and the argument happened while he walked to the car.
Except now he said Corey and a guy, Eddie, returned the following day to dismember and bury them.
And Tony had absolutely nothing to do with it.
He didn't shoot anyone. He didn't stab anyone.
He didn't save anyone. He didn't chop anyone up.
He didn't bury anyone. He had... nothing to do with it.
I think my brain is so at capacity for his stories that the only thing I took out of that is that when you said Corey and the girls, I had a flashback to the Today Show performance of Corey and the Angels.
I love that you went there. Thank you. I love that you just brought that into my brain.
That's just like that's a little glimpse into how my mind works. guys did you watch that yeah we should post that we should absolutely i think that's something everybody needs that's a true crime in and of itself truly is so yeah we'll post that don't worry about it So now Corey takes another polygraph test.
Corey. Yes, yes, yes. He passes again. He's like, can I not do this again?
Because again, after that, they're like, I guess we should polygraph him again because now he's told us...
15 more stories about how Corey did it. Let's just like quadruple down on that.
So now Zimmerman is like, you know, we keep going back and forth.
I keep getting stuff from him and then he backs off and he comes back and forth.
So he brings in another polygraph examiner that's like really well known, really good at his jobs.
His name is Warren Holmes. And he was like, can you do the interview with me?
Yeah. Like maybe it'll help. This guy's a little younger.
I don't know. Maybe it'll like. you'll connect a little better and it's not me because i keep hammering him right so When this guy comes in, he just confesses.
Tony. Yeah. He just, he's like, all right, I got a lot to tell you.
Why? So he confesses to the murders and says he doesn't know why he did it, but he wanted a doctor to look into why he did it.
He was like, I need, I want a psychiatrist to look into why I did it.
Alrighty. And then they asked him they were like okay so Charlie Zimmerman comes back in the room and he's like all right let's keep asking him questions see what we can get So he's like, was there a sexual component to this?
And Tony said there could have been. There could have been.
Which means yes. Get that doctor. Just get that doctor.
I don't know. so then so they're like okay so he said he felt like it was another person doing it and he was watching them commit the crime that's That's like the most convenient thing ever.
He said dismemberment was not sexual to him, but it was fascinating to him.
Which is funny because he kept claiming how much he hated blood.
Funny because he kept saying that. And funny because...
I don't think it's fascinating to make underwear on somebody.
No, not fascinating. I think you got some kind of, I think you got your rocks off.
Yeah, I think that's something weird. So he said he pulled the trigger and he said he saw no justification for what he did.
He said he can't stop thinking about Marianne's gurgling sounds.
They keep him up at night. Because they had asked him, they were like, did they cry out or say anything to you?
Because... A lot of people who kill people will say this, like people will say something before they die and it haunts them forever.
And he says Marianne's gargling sounds like have kept him up at night good now he said what they had all thought all along that marianne had run when patricia was shot right And he chased her down.
I believe that. He said he put one piece, because they had found one piece of Marianne in the grave with Patricia and they were like was that intentional well no he's they were like was that intentional was that to link them in some way like subconsciously And he said, no, it was just a matter of fitting them in.
Oh, that's lovely. You think you're going to get some kind of like... deeper meaning.
He's like, nah, I just had to fit him in there.
He also said he didn't remember raping them, but maybe he could have.
Okay. And they were like, like you did because like there was semen found like you did and he was like probably but I don't know And they're like, okay, we'll take it.
So during this, the autopsy reports have been finalized.
And the belief was that they, so they believe that what happened was that He had tied Marianne and Patricia, either both of them or one of them, up by their feet to a tree branch and the one that they found unseen with blood and like bits of bloody rope on it, to cut them up that way.
So he... Hung them by their feet to dismember them.
Okay, okay. And as an aside to this, just so it kind of connects a little bit more, Avis had said that one of Tony's fetishes that she was not into was to tie her up from a hook on their ceiling.
And would tie her by her legs because it would make the blood rush to her head and make her pass out.
And then he could do whatever he wanted.
What the f- Avis is very lucky that she's alive.
I'm sure she's not anymore. Well, this wasn't that long ago.
Yeah, this wasn't that long ago. And she, I mean, yeah.
Also, she was like 14, but like she's got an angel on her shoulder.
Avis. So. So he was seen at Massachusetts Mental Health Center in Roxbury.
He was seen by Dr. Jack Ewalt. And he said Tony was good at showing emotions, but he definitely wasn't feeling them.
He was just good at showing what an emotion looks like.
Which is what he knew. He knew how to feign them.
He knewed it. He said he was very desperate to look passive and not aggressive at all.
He was very much trying to portray that.
Well, because he's also, this guy is not a hippie at all.
He's trying to be a hippie. No, not at all.
And he said it was actually... He did that to the point of being like...
He overdoes it. Yeah. So it's like overdone trying to be this very passive person.
I am just a child. chillest motherfucker in the room.
I am so chill. First things first, I'm the chillest.
You know what? I don't like blood. Hate it. hate it so much.
So the conclusion he came to was that He had no psychotic condition and was basically just dealing with, quote, a severe character disorder, but he was not insane.
Okay. He finally admitted, so he finally got Tony to admit that He remembers sexual contact with the murder victims, but not whether it was before or after they were dead.
Gross. Feel like you might remember that, but, like, okay.
The report did say that his irregular sexual appetite and desires mixed with this his heavy mind-altering drug use could have very well contributed to him committing these crimes.
They said he may be borderline schizophrenia.
Ah. Borderline. Yeah. They did not diagnose him with it.
He did say, though, that he urged the court to at least consider him being committed to Bridgewater State Hospital. for sexually dangerous people okay like the ward that deals with that yeah On March 25th, they had another doctor come in to examine him, Dr. Frederick Wiskin from Plymouth.
He said he wasn't psychotic. He agreed. But he said he definitely had sexual perversions.
He didn't think borderline. was accurate.
He said it was actually too excessive. Yeah.
He said he thought he was borderline personality disorder. time that's what I've been thinking with sexual deviation uh-huh But they didn't diagnose him with that.
They were kind of saying like, this is what it appears to me.
And it's pretty hard to diagnose people as borderline, isn't it?
It is. It's really hard. It's hard to diagnose and hard to treat.
So May 6, 1970, his trial began. Okay. Apparently, he was super cold, super dickish.
But he insisted in the end, he insisted on making his own statement.
Which is, who gives a shit what you have to say?
Yeah. And... So they took him to the murder scene in Truro on one day with the jury so they could like show the graves and everything.
See how he reacts to it. He called it quote an enjoyable experience.
I believe that. Yeah. And by now they had found the buried 22 caliber handgun. in a plastic bag at the base of that tree so it was buried so they did find it he did not throw it in the water he did not throw it what a dingus you're In Provincetown?
I'm saying. And you bury the gun? And you bury the gun in the same place that they found all the evidence?
Like, Like, I'm glad that you're stupid, but wow.
Yeah, for real. So, yeah. So they found the gun.
In court, they realized that the gun had actually been sold to Tony by Corey.
Oh shit, that is bananas. He had sold it to him in 1968 for 20 bucks and the gun actually belonged to Corey's grandfather.
Wow. Yeah. So by now they so the pathologist took the stand because they were like, we need to talk about these autopsy reports.
He confirmed that the sperm was found in the rectum of both of the girls and the vaginal areas.
And he said he could say with pretty good certainty that it was done after death.
Yeah. He was actually surprised that it was still able to be found.
Because he said, normally it doesn't last that long.
So he was actually like, that tells me more that it's after death.
But also it was cold too when they found them.
So did that probably help? Yeah, a little bit.
But he was still like it had to have been after death because there's no way it would be in there that long.
Yeah. One witness named Paula. gave like a really weird testimony.
She said that one time Tony drew something on the inside of her raincoat because he was always like doodling. and like hippies man yeah uh so she said one drawing was like a hash pipe Yeah.
She said one was like a grotesque face that couldn't even be called a real face.
She said it was like weird. Okay. Then she said the third drawing was just a body with no arms.
And when they asked if it was a man or a woman, she said, just a body.
What the fuck? What? Now, his defense relied on his chronic and hardcore drug use. as a defense that they i mean it is like that's all they talked about it's probably all they had That is really all they have.
What else are you going to say? And Avis testified, and she was chaotic at best.
I feel like Avis would have to be chaotic at this point in her life.
Yeah, chaotic at a time on that stand. you read it and i'm gonna be honest because like i'm sure avis you know she's a grown-ass adult i don't know if she's alive now but like she's a grown-ass adult yeah So I'm sure she has some regrets.
I'm sure she probably looks back and has a few regrets about how she handled herself on the stand there.
Yeah. She came onto the stand holding flowers that she had picked outside.
Well, she's a hippie, so she sure is. But she giggled through her testimony, kept putting her hand up to giggle.
In fact, you probably just got the effect.
Yeah. And it kept covering... the microphone like so when she would answering things she would like giggle and put her hand up And they kept having to tell her, like, don't put your hands up.
I can't hear you. And she would be like...
And then at one point the judge was like, hold your flowers with both your hands, like was literally like, stop putting your hands up.
And then she looked at him and goes, is that an order?
Uh, maybe she was, she might've been on drugs.
Let's be real. Well, she was young first of all.
And she was, I mean, and yeah, she was probably on drugs.
I mean, we said the other day, you laugh at funerals.
Yeah, I mean, yeah. This is a high pressure.
I'm sure she looks at it now and was like, maybe I shouldn't have acted like that.
She's like, maybe I should have dropped LSD. before I fucking was at a trial at a quadruple murder trial for my ex-husband and father of my children.
She's like, you know what, the whole thing in and of itself was a bad trip, so I was hoping I could just like reconstruct it. counteract it with a good trip yeah and maybe you'll just get a medium trip out of it I don't know.
It's a recipe. Maybe it'll all just cancel out.
Give it a shot. She wouldn't answer anything on the stand about their sex life, which... She was probably embarrassed.
You can understand. And she said, she was like, I don't want to talk about this in front of all these people, which you get. in one thing and then but like as a totally separate entity like being me over here not knowing any of these people I'm like, no, you have to.
Cause it's going to help like put him away.
Yes. But it's like, I, when it comes down to it being you.
As a human being you can sit there and be like, yeah, I don't want to talk about how my, you know, in her case, how her husband like to fucking string her up on a hook in the middle of the room yeah i'm good Get her unconscious.
Like, I don't want to talk about it. Well, and also there's not much that she can really testify about because she was pretty unconscious throughout it all.
She was. So she's just like, yeah, okay.
Next question. But then when she left, she blew Tony a kiss and flashed a peace sign.
Yeah, see, peace and love I'm all for until murder.
But not in a murder trial. Until murder.
Like, don't... don't blow kisses in flash if you take out okay weird because i was just gonna say the news is on in the background they're talking about born But it just flashed the Cape Cod garden sign.
Yeah, that was real weird. The famous Cape Cod garden sign that we used to see whenever we go to nanny and pa's house oh i know i miss nanny and pa's house and we go over the bridge that's showing sorry little that's really weird though that yeah that was weird So weird that we live in Boston and the news is talking about the Cape.
So weird. Also kind of weird because this is the Rhode Island.
Yeah, that is weird. Anyways, not important.
Weird. weird keep it weird weird keep a weird news station so yeah she blew a kiss she flashed a peace sign when she went outside she handed the flowers to like a deputy and was like give them to tony Oh, yeah.
You know what, Avis? Fuck yourself. And she tried to, like, touch Tony, and they were like, stop fucking, like, no.
Yeah, no, you know what, Avis? So it did get a little... I'm disappointed.
It got a little weird. Here I am. I'm hoping Avis has looked, has reflected.
That's all. Because you were... You were young.
It was the 60s. That had a very Charlie Manson-esque.
Oh, yes. It very much reminded me of like a Manson family girl.
Okay. squeaky firm yeah i was like all right so tony made a long-winded statement about drugs for his statement And it was, but the thing about it was it was very articulate and very coherent.
So the prosecution was like, well, shit, he just proved that he's very sane.
You're like, yeah, buddy, that did not work in your favor.
That did not. help you that's self-evaluating yeah it's like really good um so may 29th 1970
He was found guilty of first degree murder for all four murders. and sentenced to two life sentences to be served concurrently in prison, served at Walpole Prison.
Oh, that is a rough and tough person. Yeah, I was going to say, as soon as I saw Walpole, I was like, ooh, Tony.
How was your time at Walpole? You're not going to.
Do good at Walpole, Tony. I get scared even, like, and I'm not in Walpole a lot, but, like, I've been in Walpole before.
You've been passing by. You're like... passing it you're like hope nobody jumps the fence i'm real scared yikes they keep the the real tough people oh yeah that's a that's a tough scene so of course he wanted to appeal Because of course.
Because they always do. But he wrote a letter to the judge requesting to do so with a different counsel.
Because he said he didn't think he had an effective counsel.
And he said if he had a different one, he would be able to prove his innocence.
Well, that makes sense because his counsel that he had in the first place didn't really work out so well.
They didn't really do it. So then he told... But then all of a sudden he... went back on it and he was like, I want to keep my council actually.
Well that's not a good plan. And they were like, why did you even do that?
And he was like, well, we have a book deal on the works and I think it would be a conflict of interest.
Okay, you're also not going to gain any money from that, you giant asshole.
And they were like, seriously, you're doing this on like the stance of like a book deal and conflict of interest?
And he was like, yeah. You know what, though?
Back then, I wonder if he was able to profit off that.
He actually, I think he would have been able to.
Yeah, because that's pretty recent that you're not able but i think he actually signed something that um because his council wanted part of it to go to his children So he was like... But I don't know exactly what happened after that.
I'm going to say something like... Potentially controversial.
I don't think I would want my dad's murder book money.
Oh, no, that's not controversial. I didn't think so, but people find things controversial.
Yeah, I don't know. If you find that controversial, that's weird but like yeah I don't think I would want that either I'd be like you know no thanks dad like honestly I'd be like give it to the victims yeah I don't need it that's where it should go like I don't need that shit So, yeah.
So he was like, yeah, he ended up... Obviously, he did not get his appeal.
Like, he did not win his appeal. No. He served at Walpole, like we said, and they were going through some departmental changes at the time.
They were trying to like do a new program to like really rehabilitate drug offenders.
Yeah. And Tony thought he was like, oh, my God.
That applies to me. He's like, I would be so good at this.
So he was like, I've been through it all.
I can help. I can teach people. I mean at least I guess I could say at least he wanted to help I think he just like wants I think it's the superiority thing though he just wants to be in charge of people yeah And so they all hated him.
Of course. So none of them listened to him and they were all like, fuck off.
And it was not eventful. They gave him a nickname.
His nickname was Choice Cuts. Why? Like a choice cut of meat.
Oh, because he dismembered people. That's not nice.
I don't like that. It's real fucked. So he did write a memoir in prison.
It was called Resurrection and And it said that Patricia and Marion's death were Carl's fault.
Who the fuck is Carl? He said Carl was the one who killed them while on LSD and Dilaudid and Costa had subdued him. but Marianne wasn't dead so he said he had to put her out of her misery and stab her so at least he remembered And then he said Carl and he dismembered and buried them together.
This is the first time he had mentioned Carl.
No one knows who the fuck Carl is. No one news.
No one news it. No one news it. No one knowed it.
No one knows. I liked that a lot. We don't know.
Wow. So he also said in the book that Sydney and Susan died of drug overdoses and that.
Carl dismembered and buried them. Who the fuck is Carl?
Yeah, he was like, I had no idea what happened to them, really.
It was just all Carl. He had nothing to do with that.
This is literally the first time he has ever mentioned Carl.
I love, too, that an editor was like, hell yeah, Carl.
Hell yeah, Carl. We don't need a backstory.
I don't need anything. It's just Carl. No, leave them wanting more.
Who's Carl? It leaves it open for a sequel.
So May 12th, 1974, 29 years old. 8 p.m. in Walpole Prison.
Yeah. Guards are making their rounds. Yeah.
And they find Tony. hanging in his cell by a leather belt.
In the book In His Garden by Leo de More, he describes him as, quote, Costa's eyes bulged.
His darkly mottled face was frozen into a grotesque mask. blood foamed against his gaping lips from his having bit his own tongue nearly in half.
One unlaced sneaker had been kicked off during his death struggles, revealing a mended white sock.
Costa had urinated down the front of his unpressed prison trousers.
He's buried in an unmarked grave in St. Peter the Apostle Cemetery in Provincetown.
His garden is still very much a tourism, like a dark tourist spot.
It's behind Pine Grove Cemetery in Truro.
It's down a dirt road and you'll see a tree with an old phone attached to it.
And that's where it is. All right. I'll see you there.
And that is the story. of tony chop chop i'm bummed that he hanged himself i'm really bummed that he hanged himself like got that opportunity yeah i was not happy about that not serviceful sentence but I wow I feel like I have a lot to say, but I can't get my thoughts together because that was so much It's so much.
Well, and just to end this, I did find a quick little article. talking about some of the officers, like Officer Gunnery, who's the one that initially was digging with his hands into the graves.
Yeah, and he had to throw his coat out. Yeah, and it's in the Barnstable Patriot.
And in this article, he says about a year before the discoveries in Truro.
There was a Provincetown girl that disappeared.
And at about the same time, this Officer Gunnery said he stopped Costa on Route 6 for driving a car with a bad muffler and speeding.
Oh. he says quote he got out of his car and walked over to mine when that happens it usually means you don't want to look in the car Costa was given a warning on the speeding, and it was on the promise that the muffler would be fixed. the next day yeah now Gunnery says quote in retrospect of the sequences Gunnery I've always wondered whether the body of the missing girl was in the trunk of Costa's car when I stopped him that day.
Wow. I had no reason then to think so. But then, I mean, hindsight is 20-20.
Wow. And he'll never know. But it's like, can you imagine having that on your conscience?
No. Like... It is so crazy because it just makes sense because so many of these criminals, especially... these types of criminals will be stopped by police.
Exactly. And somehow get their way out of it with a body or something super incriminating in the car.
And it's and that's the thing he says because and I feel so bad for this guy because like he was the one that was digging with his hands like really into it.
And he says, but I wonder if I looked in that trunk, if I might have saved the lives of the other victims who followed.
And then he says that the first body that he actually unearthed when he was digging with his hands was the one of that original missing girl.
Wow. Yeah. And he said the one who might have been in the trunk.
Right. And then he said, I guess I'll never know.
Oh, that's like such an eerie ending. Isn't that so eerie?
That would also be such a great way to end that movie.
I know, just I guess I'll never know. credits it's like grizzled old officer just being like i guess i'll never know and then he lights a cigarette obviously oh he's got to have that accent so I guess I'll never know yeah cha-ching spark one up buddy wow so that's That's the tale of Tony Cust.
I'm here to tell you that was my favorite case you've ever covered.
Yeah. I don't know why. I think it's because it's home.
Yeah. Because it's home. You just scared the shit out of me.
Ooh. And it just scared us. See, I always turn southern when I get scared.
You scared me. You just scared me. God, the shit out of Blanche Devereaux.
So I hope you guys were horrified by that. and says a lot about you if you were not yeah if you weren't then i don't know like talk to someone about it Better help.
Yeah, so we love you. We love you. You can find us on Instagram at Morbid Podcast.
Hit us up on the Twitter at amorbidpodcast.
And that's our Gmail. morbidpodcast.gmail.com we hope that you keep listening and we hope you keep it Weird.
But not so weird that any of this shit happens to you.
Fuck you, Tony. That's the way that you, like, bring flowers to testify.
What the fuck, Avis? Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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