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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
And let me tell you, it did. I've been listening to it while I walk, and I am absolutely loving it.
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That's greenlight.com slash wondery. Hey, weirdos.
I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this right here...
It's morbid. It is. Yeah, I thought so. It's pretty morbid.
Good, good, good. And you know what, guys?
Don't worry. This is gonna be real morbid.
Yeah, this is really gonna lift your spirits guys it certainly is because i've decided to dive into one that many people I'm not going to tell you what it is yet.
I want to start it and really be theatrical about it.
You know what I love? I love when we're like, we're not going to tell you yet, but nine out of ten times the person's name is in the title of the episode.
Oh, I'm going to name the episode who it is.
But for my own pleasure right now, I'm going to be like, yeah, you don't know who it is.
That was a realization that I just had live.
Yeah. And you know what? Me too. That's funny.
Here we are. Guys, it's been a week for literally every single person on planet Earth, I'm pretty sure.
Yes. Like the entire planet. Potentially even those on Mars.
Yeah, space. Who knows? So everybody's super stressed out.
So we're going to try to bring you a good episode that you can just sail away into, into a land of brutality.
Sail away, sail away, sail away. She just pulled back with this face like I'm gonna do it.
I was like I'm so fucking ready. She's like I'm gonna go full Enya.
I'm gonna do it. No, do you know that Enya lives in a fucking castle by herself with her cats?
Knowing that right now has fed my soul in a way that I can't even describe to you.
I'm going to tell you that my only source is a meme that I found on the internet, but I so hope that that meme is accurate.
It is. There's no way Enya lives anywhere but a castle.
With her cats alone. Yeah. That's it. Like that's a dream.
Enya lives rent free in my head. Same. All the time.
Yeah. Literally same. It's just so good.
Well, I think other than telling you that Enya lives alone in a castle with her cats, the only other news that we have for you is...
If you haven't checked out shop.morbidpodcast.com, then you don't know that your feet could be as weird as your fucking brain.
Can't wait for my morbid socks, guys. Guys, there's morbid socks.
There's also fucking... a shirt with a booty on it that I can't wait to wear and offend old people across the nation. we don't want to do that or just like people that suck and don't want to look at an ass on your shirt hold on to your butt it literally says hold on to your butts and there's a skeleton pointing at the butt I love it There's also one that's a raccoon that says I'm trash.
Yeah. And there's like a couple other ones.
Their morbid planchette design is now in there.
Yeah. I think it's a little like updated.
I think so, yeah. So it's just a lot of fun stuff in there.
Yeah, and you can head on over to shop.morbidpodcast.com to be...
Decked head to toe in morbid merch. Because you know what?
It's the holiday season. The holiday season.
So buy some shit. Yeah. All right. We're going to get sued.
So we're going to get sued by someone. I don't know who.
But so let's start this, okay? Because this is going to be A multi-parter.
We're in for it, guys. But guess what? because it's the holiday season and I'm feeling very, very gift Gifty.
It's also not the holiday season yet. I don't know why you keep saying this.
It's like the holiday season. Everybody's, you know what, everybody's selling Christmas a little too early and I'm upset about it.
But honestly, in these times. We should have stretched Halloween out further.
We should have, but we didn't. So we have to work with what we have.
So I'm going to go with Christmas. Okay.
I'm going to go with it. I have some nifty gifties for you and the nifty gifties are that I'm going to give you part two of this.
This week? The same week. What? So you only have to wait like two days. before you get the rest.
Because honestly, taking this all in one session would be a lot for all of us.
Yeah, it's just a lot. So I'm going to give you a big old part one.
Okay, sis. This is just like a diesel part one.
So let's start, shall we? I'm as ready as I ever will be, I feel.
I hope everybody's ready. So this person's autobiography, which I can't say that I recommend.
That you read it. 10 out of 10 don't recommend.
It's called Butchering Humanity. Butchering humanity.
Buy it on Kindle. It's interesting, for sure, but It's also highly offensive.
And it's this person's words, which are very offensive and very gnarly.
I feel like it's all packed into the title.
So am I going to judge you if you want to read it?
Absolutely not. Because why? I read it. So I'm not going to judge you for that, but...
Just letting you know. It's for research purposes.
Just letting you know before you dive in that there's going to be some times where you're like, oh, Lord.
Okay, so. This person's autobiography, there's a quote that I think sums up their life.
Okay. The quote is, I have lived 36 years in this world and soon I expect to leave it.
All that I leave behind me is smoke, death, desolation, and damnation.
Is that written by Satan? Pretty much. Okay.
Also, another quote that I think perfectly sums up this person is their quote that says, I am sorry for only two things.
These two things are, I am sorry that I mistreated some few animals in my lifetime.
And I'm sorry that I'm unable to murder the whole damn human race.
Wow. Okay. Those are two... Yeah. Those are two things.
Those are two things. So you know what? Let's go to June 28th, 1891, shall we?
Sure. When one Karl Panzram came Just shooting into this world, I think, in a bundle of just, like, sulfur and just shit.
Wow. You know, it was cancer season, so... There you go.
Here he comes. I believe his actual... like given name is Charles, which is interesting.
Oh, I didn't know that Carl was short for Charles.
I don't know if it is, but he went by Carl.
Cool. So we'll go with that. He was born to Johan and Matilda Panzram.
Matilda. They were German immigrants and quite possibly some of the most ill-prepared parents that I have ever seen.
Good. Good, good, good. And by the way, this whole part one, we're only going to get to his first murder. after all this, but I just want to tell you ahead of time, his entire life is one big true crime.
And I think halfway through this, you're going to go, oh, wait, we haven't murdered anyone yet.
Like, you're going to be like, wait, we have what?
Are you sure? Wow. And there's like 20 murders, aren't there?
There's like 21 murders. So we, yeah. So I was getting to the end of the first part and I was like, wait, We're just getting to the murder.
And I think it's because like his soul. was murdered several times over.
So I think you just feel like it just people, things keep dying.
Oh, good. This is going to be uplifting, huh?
It's gonna be a lot of fun, everybody. I hope you got your popcorn.
You're just ready to go. Okay. I'm ready to just lift you up.
So yeah, they were terrible parents. He was born in East Grand Forks, Minnesota.
Minnesota! Don't you know? Don't you know?
And he was the youngest of eight. That's a lot of children.
He only had one sister. The rest were all brothers.
Oh. Boy mom. Boy mom. That was Matilda.
That was not Matilda. She was not. She was like.
She was like, barely a mom. Yeah, she's like, not even a mom, really.
Good, good. So yeah, it's very good. So his parents were dirt farmers, apparently, quote unquote.
They farmed dirt. They had like a plot of land that was very... Dirty.
How you say infertile. It was not really giving them a whole lot to work with, but they were trying.
They worked long, hard hours. No one will say that they were not workers.
That is for sure. And again, they wanted the American dream.
They did not get it. I can say that with full confidence that I don't think they both went to...
The pearly gates being like, yep, got that American dream.
Like, shit was real rough for them. Ruh-roh.
Yeah. It was no good. But their kids, I mean, they had all those kids.
That's great. That's free work. So that's awesome.
Yeah. So, and you went to work in this family as soon as you could... Walk.
I think as soon as you could, like... maybe form like kind of like a solid shit you could probably go to work Like a poop?
Yeah. Like once you got out of that infant phase of just like that kind of thing.
The tar poop. you were off everyone's like turning this off you know newborn tar poop you you do All you parents out there or anyone who's babysat a little thing, a little thing.
Newborn tar poop is a thing. You all know.
You're with me. But basically, you were out in the fields right off the bat.
You were working, working, working. Now, from where they were, and at this time, from the age of five onward, kids had to go to school.
That was a law. you know, truancy laws and all that.
Yeah, that is good. normal families, that would mean the child would probably work less on the farm because they are in school all day.
No, to the Pan's Rams, however. It just meant they would take the time lost on the farm while Carl was at school. and they would just take it out of his sleep schedule.
Oh, no. Because that's good, right? Like kids don't need sleep.
No. No. Yours don't. I was just going to say, ask my youngest.
She'll tell you 100% that kids don't need even a lick of sleep.
So yeah, they were like, we'll just take it out of your sleep schedule.
He ended up having only, at the most, two hours of sleep at night. as a six-year-old boy what the he would be out in the middle of the night working on the farm In the fucking middle of the night in the cold at six years old.
After being at school all day. Like, why?
And then sleeping for a max of two hours and then doing it all over again.
You know what that would do to your brain?
Well, we do. I can go ahead and tell you what that does to your brain.
He started to really falter in school, obviously.
Because he's probably like hallucinating in first grade and also it's just mentally and physically he's And as any parent of a sleepless child can attest to... lack of sleep really starts to get to you.
And this is a six year old who is doing hard labor in the middle of the night in the cold. and like his brain is developing so he was like silent at school they said he was very withdrawn.
He would literally just like stare blankly off into the distance.
He was probably sleeping with his eyes open.
Right? He was just in a state of not even there, like a zombie state.
And so they were like, we couldn't, you'd ask him a question and he was just like dazed out of, and at six.
I know. Can you imagine a six-year-old being dazed?
No. Like I have almost five-year-olds that literally never stop talking.
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So according to his autobiography, he says, Quote, my portion of pay on the farm consisted of plenty of work and a good sound beating every time I looked cockeyed or done anything that displeased anyone who was older and stronger and able to catch me and kick me around whenever they felt like it.
It seemed to me then and still does now that everything was always right for the one who was the strongest and every single thing that I'd done was wrong.
Everybody said so anyway. Wow. So right off the bat, You can see that he's having a very loving upbringing.
We're not seeing any red flags. None. I haven't seen a single one.
Seems to me to be completely nature. No nurture whatsoever. right yeah yeah i don't see anything that would lead to him wanting to like hurt the rest of humanity no And you know what?
We're definitely not going to see it next.
For sure. For sure. So then he started to break down physically.
Because eventually he's already breaking down.
That's the first thing that's going to happen.
Then you're going to start getting sick.
Yeah. And so he started having this whooping kind of like smoker's cough that he never got rid of, like as a six year old.
What? Yeah. So he had it for the rest of his life?
He just kept having it. He couldn't get rid of it.
What the fuck? and it just wouldn't get better he had a ton of like little illnesses happen but his parents would just like let him suffer through them Because your body needs sleep.
The human body is designed to go to sleep.
Yeah, and... You know, like money and time and nurturing were not things that they were willing to sacrifice for their kids.
So they were just like, you'll be fine. Can you work?
Like, why did you have eight of them? So they could work.
Honestly, they're like, this is fine. That's horrible.
As long as you can stand up and work. so at seven years old and this is gnarly guys just to let you know at seven years old he got a really bad ear infection Because again, he's not sleeping and he's in the cold at night all the time.
Oh, I can like feel it. eel and ear infection.
Terrible ear infection. I got a ton of them when I was little.
I did too. And so bad that his ear swelled up like a boxer's ear.
Like, you know, the like cauliflower ear?
Yeah. That's what happened. Oh. He became deaf on that side.
Like, that's how bad it was. And he was, you know, when, and especially kids. excruciating pain yeah infection he was literally to the point where the ear infection was so bad that he couldn't walk straight Like he was losing his balance.
Because your equilibrium is all fucked up.
And it was making him like ill. So his parents were like, well shit, he can't work on the farm if he can't stand up straight, so maybe we should do something about this. but we're not going to take him to a doctor.
No, of course not. His dad was like, all right, what can I do?
Oh, I'll just cut it open and see if the infection comes out.
But the actual fuck. Yeah. So they held him down.
A seven-year-old on the dining room table, all his brothers laid on top of him to hold him down. while his father started slicing at his ear to try to drain the infection.
All seven of his brothers are lying on top of him as he screams.
At one point, he was fighting so much to get away from the pain. that the knife slipped and stabbed him in his ear slash brain.
What? Because if you put something in your ear, you're right there.
What the actual fuck? Lucky for him, he passed out from pain eventually.
When he woke up, his parents were pouring lava-hot boiling water into the wound. so into his brain yeah to just clean them That's what they were trying to do.
Clean them. You're not a medical doctor.
You're not doing anything right. My dudes, you are not doing one good thing here.
You're actually doing everything wrong. Well, he went absolutely bonkers after this.
Like as soon as he woke up and the boiling water's being poured on him, he like lost his shit. you don't say he ended up punching a few of his brothers like just losing it and punching people screaming, literally having a breakdown.
According to the book, Kill Them All by Ryan Green, which is a really interesting book about this case.
I recommend it. And I'll put it, I'll put all these books in the show notes.
His family assumed that this pain, like the pain from this, had just driven him mad and like literally insane.
And this was the beginning of the end for him.
But in reality, It was likely the fact that his father had literally stabbed his brain with a fucking knife. while inflicting pain that none of us can even comprehend.
After months and months of literal child abuse and sleep deprivation, At six and seven years old.
He probably hit the frontal lobe, and we all know what happens then.
If you're new here... Okay. The frontal lobe.
Very important. Pretty vital. to, oh, I don't know, emotional and behavioral and impulse regulation.
Hello, meet Carl. So he literally had brain damage at the age of seven.
His dad literally was like, whoop! Sorry.
He almost had an ice pick lobotomy. He literally did.
He basically did. They just didn't like sever whatever they needed to.
Oh my god, my ear is like ringing right now.
And I love that his family's like, I think he just went crazy because it hurts so much.
It's like... You stabbed him in his brain.
That'll do it. And you've been beat. eating this child like his entire life and depriving him of sleep, which is literal torture.
Good. We're off to a great start. So already you're like, whoa.
All right. This kid is not on a great path already.
No. So later, again, his autobiography said about his life, quote, I have no desire to reform myself.
My only desire is to reform people who try to reform me.
I believe that the only way to reform people is to kill them.
So we're going to connect this real quick.
I think that frontal lobe thing was a problem.
I think it may have been bad. If I'm looking at how he acts later and thinks later, I'm gonna go ahead and say that's a big problem.
It's sad because you really want this to be a success story, but we all know that it's not.
It's like... the most antithesis of a success story and this is also one of those things where yes feel bad now But then we're going to get to part two when you're not allowed to feel bad anymore.
And honestly, most of this you're not going to be able to feel bad.
Like feel bad for the kid. Yeah, we don't feel bad for the adult, of course, which we all know that.
No. So, well, weirdly, this home surgery didn't work to cure that ear infection yet.
Did they have to like chop his motherfucking ear off?
Well, he just ended up having to be hospitalized for weeks. weeks because the infection spread to his brain because they opened up giant holes where the infection just went. and just went right in.
Did it make that noise? So, yeah, I think it probably did to Carl at the time.
Carl definitely heard a few bloopers. So kill them all suggests that there was likely some brain inflammation.
And definitely some seizure activity during his hospital stay, I'm sure.
And this further wrecked his already shattered brain.
At seven. At seven. So now, you know, one might say that Carl is a changed child yeah you know that that'll do it if your dad stabs you in the brain that'll change you Yeah, he didn't have a whole lot really working in his favor before that, but this really... changed him he was now violent aggressive he was even colder oh no just completely blank When he returned home from his hospital stay, the farm really had fallen apart.
Because they could barely afford the doctor to begin with, never mind a hospital stay.
Right. And it had completely drained them.
All his brothers had all left to go work at other farms because they were like...
And I think it was literally like, well, this isn't exactly a tight-knit family as it is, so it's not like we're like, stay and save the farm.
They were like, fuck it, I'm gonna go make money somewhere else dad's gonna stab me in the brain pretty much so he was the only one that was left over to be honest and The attention on him was not like pleasant attention as you might, you know, maybe deduce from this.
You might gather. You might gather. So Carl made it a living hell for his parents.
Who, to be fair, sucked. So like, welcome to the hell you created, folks.
Everybody just sucks. The only thing that even slightly kept Carl in line was his father, because his father would just violently abuse him, like, a lot.
Oh. So it wasn't that Carl listened or respected him.
He would just... kind of act as a deterrent like if anything was like so he didn't get the shit kicked out of him because he just didn't feel like getting the shit kicked out of him all the time So then his, you know, garbage dad just up and left.
Oh. Yeah, he was just like... There's a lot of debt here.
We can't farm. This kid's annoying. I'm just gonna peace.
Awesome. Good dad. So Matilda's alone. So he just left Carl and his mom with all the debts, the failing farm, everything.
She was able to keep it all together barely, but she had a lot of help, like the community kind of helped out.
But they were dirt poor. Right. Even even like being able to maintain things, they were barely maintaining things.
I mean, like barely eating, barely clothing themselves.
It was like dire straits. That's awful. All the kids abandoned her because she was a shitty mom their whole lives and Carl was a literal nightmare.
So this is just, this is just great. And remember, his dad was the only thing that even slightly kept him in line.
So now it's getting real fucked up around there.
He was like the shepherd of his shit and he's gone.
The shit shepherd has left the building.
Now Carl's just roaming. uh now he's and again he has no source of fear so he's really being violent he's really being aggressive he's getting in a ton of trouble he just doesn't give a shit so now he's starting to skip school And he's just walking around the town of Warren, Minnesota all by himself, just doing what he wants to do.
And in 1899, at only eight years old, he became an alcoholic.
No. Yes. Eight years old. He's an alcoholic drinking heavily to the point where he was requiring it.
I'm trying to think of an eight-year-old that I know right now.
I don't think I know of any eight-year-olds.
They're very small. Yeah. They are very...
I'm at that age where I don't know how old any child is.
I'm like, oh, that's a kindergartner. And they're like, that's a fifth grader.
And they're like that kid with the whiskey.
That's an eight year old. Don't worry about it.
That's just Carl. Oh, no, don't worry about that.
That's just Carl hitting the sauce a little early today.
It's like Jeffrey Dahmer with his little styrofoam cup.
That's him. But I think he was even older.
Yeah, he was. I think he was in like junior high at least or something or like middle school.
This kid's eight. Oy vey. And he stole from his absent father's liquor cabinet and he just started like, that's where he started doing it.
And then he would just wander into bars around town.
And the drunks thought he was hilarious because he's this eight-year-old walking into a bar like wanting a drink. drink, so they would give him whiskey.
Because they thought it was hilarious. This is not funny.
That's abuse. I'm here to say this is not funny.
And he was actually brought before a court for this because he was caught, like, being drunk in public at eight.
I feel like, do you bring him to the court or do you bring Matilda to the court and be like, bitch, what's up?
I think both of them were, but I think they were just like, well... there's the pans rams don't know what to say what uh where is dcf yeah And then we come to him being like 10 or 11 years old.
That's when... You know, he's now heavily drinking still at 11 years old.
And this is also when he's committing, like, actual crimes.
He would get drunk, he'd wander around, and he would just look for things to steal.
Because he also was to the point now where he is seeing that his life sucks.
And that he is getting the shit end of the stick of everything.
He doesn't have anything he needs. Never mind anything he wants.
He doesn't have anything he needs. Mm-hmm.
He's being neglected in every way possible.
And he's looking at it like life is really shitting on me.
But then I look over down the street here and there's this like palatial mansion mansion or this nice farmhouse and these people have all the things they want what the fuck Right.
And no one's explaining to him like that this isn't just like, you know, some higher power giving these people that and giving these people that.
Right. Nobody's telling him how this is happening.
So he's just like, why do they have it and I don't?
Right, because he's fucking 11. And so now he's saying, well, it seems to me that these people got it because they took it.
So I'm going to take it. Well, how else is he supposed to understand that?
And I mean, is he wrong? In a lot of situations, he's probably not that far off from reality, the situation.
But he's like, I'm going to go steal it because I want it.
So one day he was looking at his neighbor's farmhouse and he was like, fuck it, I'm going in there.
So he's 11 years old and he just walks into his neighbor's farmhouse when they're not there because people would leave their drone open and stuff just steals a cake like any 11 year old would i mean i'm not mad Honestly, any 34 year old would.
I'm 34. I would definitely steal a cake if it was there.
He took some apples because again, he's probably not eating.
He's also, I was going to say he's starving.
He's malnourished and hungry. And then he looks and he sees this fancy revolver and he's like, I'm going to steal that.
Took me a minute to remember what a revolver was.
And of course, he just... walks on home eating his cake and his apples with his little gun in his pocket and he's like, do-do-do-do, let's go home.
Well, the police came right away. And they were like, hey, boy with an entire cake, what are you doing?
You filthy boy holding an entire cake. So they arrested him right away.
And the courts weren't like, hey, you're probably starving and have been abused your whole life.
Maybe we should, I don't know, help you.
Because you're fucking 11. Yeah, they were like, all right, let's put him into the hands of the Minnesota State Reform School.
And oh boy. Oh no. Oh boy. We know what reform school does.
Let's just say this is definitely the beginning of the end for Karl Panzram, for any humanity that he had left. birth was the beginning of the end and in fact in his own words Right there.
And then I began to learn about man's inhumanity to man.
Yeah, so this is the beginning. So they put him in the Minnesota State Reform School.
It was a Christian-run facility. And it ran on the ideas of reforming young boys by just beating the shit out of them. until they said what they wanted them to say and that they were, like... fully immersed in their christian faith and if not we're just going to give you regular beatings until you are oh no which to me doesn't sound awesome No, no, can't say I'm into that.
Doesn't seem like very reformative. Seems like a big old punishment.
Seems repetitive. Seems like a bad idea.
When Carl first went there, he was met by the guy in charge who's like, I don't know if you'd call him like a warden or like... the dean yeah like his name was george mann dr george mann and this guy's a fucking crazy person and he told him so he goes into his office and he's like hey, Carl, welcome to reform school.
And he's like, I got a question. Have you ever been sodomized or have you sodomized anybody?
No. Do you masturbate? Have you had sex?
Are you filthy? Have you done any of those things?
Because that makes you filthy. And he was like, I'm 11. like what so he's like excuse me and he's like are you a homosexual And he's like, what?
I don't even know what that is. I'm 11 and it's in the 1800s.
I don't know what that is. Like, what's happening?
Oh, this is the 1800s? Yeah, this is literally like, he was born in 1890s, so this is probably the early 1900s.
Oh, shit. I didn't even know that. Yeah.
And so he's asking him all this crazy shit.
He's like, is your dad, is your father insane?
Is your father a homosexual? He's like, he stabbed me in the brain.
And he's like, I don't know. He's not even around anymore.
I don't even know what to tell you. He made him forcibly stripped down naked.
So he could give him an exam and make sure that he was not dirty or unclean or sick. or diseased and he explained to him because he was like oh have you committed sodomy and he's like I don't know what that is And he's like, well, let me explain to you what it is.
So explain to this 11-year-old what sodomy was.
Then he assaulted him, like pretty much assaulted him, to show him what it meant.
And then again, 11 years old. So wait, he's sitting here telling him that that's unclean and not OK.
And then he does like, I got to show you.
So you know it when you see it. So now I'm unclean.
Oh, of course he's not unclean. No way. He's showing him.
He's teaching him the ways. Doesn't make any sense.
So he, and then again, asking him about all the things and then he's like, okay, on your way.
Welcome to school. And Carl's like, cool, cool.
All right. So this is that. Now... he quickly was shown a place called the painting shop.
I feel like they don't paint there. Carl's own words, he was like, I felt like this must have just been like some stupid art class that they make us do, like some therapeutic art class or something. you would think no so it was the next morning before dawn he was taken to the painting shop It was a small shack.
It was like far away from the rest of the facility. on like the outer edges.
And it was a place where they took children to, quote, paint their bodies black and blue.
That's why it was called the paint shop.
Oh, that's just horrific. Now, the people in this reform school were about eight years old to 21.
There were like eight-year-olds in here.
This was supposed to be the welcome wagon to let kids know exactly what their stay here was going to be if they... got out of line.
They're just going to show you right off the bat.
They're not even out of line yet. Nope, but we're going to make sure you know you step out of line, you're going to get this like not not that it's okay with if that's oh my i'm not okay It was literally like the welcome basket.
They were like, here, this is how we welcome you to this school.
This is a nightmare. So this is terrible by the way, like trigger warning, this is all terrible, but like, sorry, I just hit my computer.
But this is really bad. Yeah. So what happened in the painting shop was that he was stripped naked.
We'll be right back. placed a towel soaked in salt water on his back that covered all the way down to his knees.
They then whipped the hell out of him with a belt designed for this specifically.
Now, George Mann there had designed this belt himself for specific reasons.
And he would actually come and watch this be done because he derived pleasure from watching these kids be beaten.
Obviously. So it was a leather strap and it had holes all over it.
And this was that so every time you whipped the person, it would suck the skin into those holes.
And eventually, the more you did it, they would form blisters all over their body, which while the whipping continued, those blisters would burst open and then your sea salt towel would pour salt into those wounds.
I, yeah. This is like real. They would literally do this.
There's record of this school getting in trouble for this.
Getting in trouble. I like that you're like, and they got in trouble.
Like, not shut down. They got... Slap on the wrist.
What the fuck is wrong with everything? Well, and even worse.
These guards at this place were not like prison guards that go through like any kind of regulations or any kind of like applications.
Yeah, they're just sick bastards. Literally anybody could be a guard here.
Good. actually quit immediately upon learning what they were going to have to do to these kids.
They were like, oh, fuck. I'm not doing like I was not signing up for this.
But then the ones that stayed were fucking psychopaths. because they were like, oh, cool, I get to hurt kids.
What is wrong with everyone? The word spread around and all these kind of like dangerous fucking sadistic humans would come to these jobs to get their fix. of like legal doing this.
It's not legal. So this was just a whole mess of shit.
And then the kid that this was done to would immediately have to go straight to a class. after like just throw on your clothes over your open wounds.
And they would have to go to a Bible study class, which they went to like a billion of those a day.
They went to church a billion times a day.
What the fuck are you going to church for if you're beating children?
They're beating the morality into you. Get out of church if you're a fucking child abuser.
They're beating the morality into these kids.
It's fucking disgusting. It's crazy. Now, again, like I said, George Mann literally got off on this shit.
Like, he liked watching Kids in Pain. I mean, if you design something like that, obviously.
And for him to think it through like that.
That's disgusting. Well, so Carl, during this whole thing, saw George Mann's face.
He saw the little like smirk on his face.
He knew immediately this guy is liking this.
So what Carl did was he went silent. and he literally would not make a sound while they did this.
Because then he wouldn't put anything on his face.
He never made a sound. He acted like it didn't even bother him.
He just sucked it up. And just went through it.
Wow. And he had practice of doing this because he'd been abused his whole life.
Right. So he was used to being able to put his brain somewhere else.
He's just numb. And so this pissed... George Mann off.
That's the thing I feel like it would get worse.
Yeah, the whole reason for this is he wants to get his jollies from this.
So Carl said this was the point where he was starting to lose complete humanity and any sense of empathy for anyone because look what's happening to him. and I mean this is what created him as an adult basically all of these things but like this really made him start to connect like pain and pleasure and hurting people and violence with like normalcy and it's just... we'll see it's like it's a theme throughout his whole life of like weakness and strength And so after these classes that these kids would have to take, they'd have a labor assignment.
So they do hard labor as well. Carl got the kitchen assignment, which is kind of weird.
But this meant that he was making the food and shit for the guards. as well i'm gonna put glass in it and i immediately when i read this was like fuck with that food carl like immediately so hard Carl had the same idea, so I don't know how I feel about that, like that we had a moment that we were both thinking the same thing.
Well, no. But if you've been abused your entire life and then you get a chance to get back at somebody, anyone is going to do that.
Boy, did he get back at them. Tell me what's up.
He said any liquid that would come his way, he would just piss right in.
Incredible. No matter what. He would just pee in all the liquid.
I would. And then he said he would just jack off into every one of the foods that was going to the guards.
And then he said he would sit next to them while they ate it and, like, enjoy watching.
Okay. Well, that just got a little more twisted than I'd like, but...
It's real gross, but like young Carl, you're kind of like, you deserve that.
Yeah, you need some form of happiness, even if it's jacking off into somebody's fucking Twinkies.
It's so fucked. That's disgusting. It's so fucked.
So unfortunately, Carl was at the paint shop every day.
I mean, they were trying that now they're trying to break him.
You nailed it. Now their thing is they're breaking this kid.
Because they can break every other kid. Why can't they break Carl?
Because Carl was broken from the start. Yeah, he came out broken.
So... After that moment where he noticed pleasure being derived from his pain and torture, he was just dead.
That shut everything off. He was like, oh, that's the world.
Okay. Boop. Bye. Just shut it off. So he was the only boy in the entire place that they could not even get a whimper out of.
He would not make a sound. And the guards literally would have to end painting room session, like painting shop sessions with him because of their own exhaustion i was gonna say they're not because of him like he would endure it they would have to stop His back must have been deformed for his whole life.
I'm sure. And so that George Mann, the warden there, decided that this was a challenge.
And he was like, okay, I'll come up with a new device if this isn't working.
God, what did he come up with? So this new thing he came up with was a mechanized paddling machine. that apparently sounds crazy when you first hear it.
You're like, whoa. But it didn't work as well as he wanted it to, because it was just a mechanized paddle.
So it was just administering the same amount of paddling. over and over, where if it was somebody who's angry and getting pleasure out of this, they can give you a hard one and a soft one and they can hit the same spot and hit a different It gets way more sadistic with a human behind it.
This really wasn't doing anything. And they were all getting used to it.
So all the kids were getting used to this and they were like, this one really isn't that bad.
It's not as bad as the other one. That's so sad.
The warding... warden is not getting his jollies because he's not seeing these kids in as much you know, torture and pain.
I don't like that you're saying jollies during the holiday episode, you sick fuck.
But, But now he's looking at it like Carl is the one that's emboldening these boys. to suddenly rebel against this and act like they don't care.
This man. So now the warden is taking over Carl's punishments himself.
And he's doing it with no one else there.
And he was beating and raping him on a regular basis.
Now, one night, the warden decided that he was going to eat with the rest of the guards because normally he didn't eat with the rest of the guards.
He ate with his wife or something. But he was like, you know what?
Let's boost... you know, the attitude and the morale here.
And I'm going to sit with them and I'm going to be like one of the guys, you know?
So Carl was like, cool made you something special motherfucker so he put some rat poison in his rice pudding Because he was like, no, I'm not just going to jack off into your food.
I want to kill you. Yeah. And this was the moment where he said this was the first time I wanted to murder a person and I was ready to do it.
I mean, duh. So. Unfortunately, he got caught before the guy could eat it.
I'm not. I'm like, I'm full-fledged for this man dying.
Yeah, I was like, that's a bummer. So he got thrown off of kitchen duty, of course.
And, of course, he was severely punished.
Where did he get rat poison? I guess there was rat poison in the facility because I'm sure it was rat infested.
Yeah. So I think he just got a box and was like, do, do, do, do.
Because the way they caught him was they saw the open box and were like, and then they looked on the rice pudding and were like, you didn't even try to hide that.
It's like you've been jacking off into the shit the whole time and you can't cover up the poison.
Cover up the rat pellets. Jesus Christ, Carl.
So this reformed school experience is what made him realize that life was about preying on those weaker than you.
Good. And he said, in anyone in worse circumstances than you, he was he was technically the weaker of the people even though he did not consider himself weak.
And even though he wasn't weak because he was the strongest one there.
But he was thinking the strong guards were preying on the weaker of us and inflicting pain and suffering on us.
And he took this lesson into his life immediately.
And he was like, okay. I'm going to start preying on the weaker boys in this school because I need to be the strong one.
That's what life is. Because that's like what he was taught.
He was being taught, you are strong, prey on the weak.
That's how you get pleasure, that's how you Go about things.
And if you're not doing that, what the fuck are you doing?
So if you're not praying on the week, then someone stronger than you is going to pray on you.
That's how he was basically seeing it. And that's how he was being shown.
It's like, if you can't beat him, join him.
Exactly. So he beat kids younger, like weaker than him.
He abused them. He was literally raping kids in school. mercilessly mercilessly he would get punished for this and not even flinch Just like before, nothing was breaking this kid.
Eventually, guards would have to take shifts during beatings with him because they couldn't handle it.
Wow. They just decided to start keeping him awake all night, working, like cleaning the fish He's like, I don't give a fuck.
I've been doing that. And they were like, oh, this will break him.
And Carl was like, oh. Six years old motherfucker.
I've been doing this my entire life. Right.
Like he was like, sure, sure. Like go right ahead.
He's like, let me tell you a story. So they're like, we're running out of ways to like torture this kid.
Like it's not working. So now they're letting this child who is evil and jaded and dead inside.
He's going to beat the other kids. And angry and devoid of any humanity, just walk around the facility with cleaning products in the middle of the night, like unsupervised. good like no one thought of that so he figured because even though he thinks he's very dumb like if you read his autobiography he's like well I'm too stupid It's stupid to understand that.
I think that was just beaten to him as well, like, you're dumb, you're not good enough.
Unfortunately, pretty cunning and smart.
And if he had used it in a good way, I think he probably would have gone a different path, but of course he did not.
So he figured these products that I'm using can be used to... kill people things on fire oh like he was like hello like these are all flammable so he was like all right what's my first stop Why wouldn't you just burn down the whole place?
The paint shop. Of course, that's your first shot.
So he used paint stripper and he burned the paint shop to the ground in the middle of the night.
Now they couldn't prove he did it because no one saw him do it.
And they weren't. And so you might say, well, bring in firefighters because they can find where the accelerant was and they'll tell you.
In 1900? Oh no, they could have done that.
Oh, really? But they didn't do that because they didn't want police seeing what the fuck was going on in this place and shutting them down.
So they just had to suck it up. Oh. So in his autobiography, he wrote about this.
That night, the whole damn place burned down at a cost of over $100,000.
Nice, huh? And at this point, you're like, yeah, Carl.
Don't worry, you're going to stop being like, yeah, Carl.
So now all the boys not only feared and respected him, but they were like, thank you, Carl.
Yeah. Now the paint shop is gone. Like, that's awesome.
Yeah. So at least now they're at least respecting him.
So now the older boys are starting to take him aside and be like, Let me give you some tips to get out of here, like parole, because some of these kids have been in here a few times, so they know how to get out.
Yeah. And so this is when he learned to lie and manipulate to get what you want.
So now they're teaching him... Say what they want you to say.
Pretend you love Jesus and that you're listening to everything they want and that you're so pure and you're just, you want to. be forgiven and blah blah blah and so he's like oh all I have to do is lie and say what someone wants me to say and I'll get what I want Let me add that to my notes.
Let's add this to another terrible lesson to learn about life.
Yippee. Now, in his autobiography, again, Butchering Humanity, he says, anyone else will take the trouble and have the intelligence or patience to follow and examine every one of my crimes and actions. you will find that I've consistently followed one idea through all my life.
I prayed upon the weak the harmless and the unsuspecting those I harmed were weaklings either mentally or physically Those who were strong, either in mind or body, I first lied to and led into a trap where they were either asleep Thank you.
I therefore was strong in my knowledge and stronger in body than those I prayed upon.
This lesson I was taught by others. Might makes right.
So he's telling you right now, I was taught.
Yeah. I was taught... You fuck with people who are weaker than you, and if you can't find someone weaker than you, then you lie and manipulate to get them weaker than you.
Great. So he's learning to be a supervillain, basically.
So he switched completely once he found all this out, like, you should lie to get out of here.
And suddenly he's acting like a model student.
Right, because he's like, piece the fuck out of here.
Oh, he's reciting Bible verses. He's answering questions.
He's like, leading discussions in class he's calling them all sir and you know father and whatever the hell he had to call them and he's being everything they want them to be.
And so of course the warden is looking at this and going, My methods work.
Like I win. Yeah, my methods of beating the morality into this kid finally worked.
It just took a while. So, he was paroled within a month of this.
And then... They just let him out. And then he fucked.
He literally butchered humanity. Now, what's interesting is he says in his book that the superintendent, Mr. Whittier of the school, fired George Mann shortly after this for committing some kind of a moral act on some of the boys under his care.
The same Mr. Whittier was himself later on dishonorably discharged for the brutal and inhumane treatment of the boys under his care.
All of these things are on file among the records of the school and can be verified by anyone who cares to look the facts up.
Wow. So he's like, I'm not lying. So he's like, the shit got shut down, so...
Now we're in 1904 and Carl is 13 years old and he was sent home from this place.
I was waiting for him to be like 20. Yeah.
And now Carl is 36 years old. Jesus. Carl is 13 years old.
My God. He was sent home again to his mother.
He's not even in high school yet. No. He's literally barely a teenager.
He's a preteen. And his mother had let the farm go without him because she was in poor health anyways.
And now she has no one to work the farm.
So now everything has gone to shit. The animals on the farm were all starving, malnourished, some of them were dead.
One of the siblings that had come back to try to help the farm had drowned in a pond right before he came home.
Jesus. family. And his mother was bedridden at the time.
So he was psyched. To see everything in disarray like this.
He was like, yeah, this is what I want to see.
I want to see everything falling down around you guys.
Wow. Which it's like, whoa. All right. So that's always what I wanted for you.
Yeah, like this is all what I wanted. So he sold off any of the animals that were like alive and he put the ones that were almost dead out of their misery.
And he let the rest of the crops rot and pulled out any decent ones that looked like they might grow.
He literally was like, I'm going to ruin any shot this sperm has.
He started drinking again. Remember he's 13 years old.
Yep. Stealing money from his mother and mugging kids and adults around All righty.
He had a little accomplice at one point.
He got accomplices throughout his life for like very short periods of time and then he'd just be like, bye.
See ya. He had another boy he recruited to help mug people and they would mug these people including adult men.
Yeah. And then they would make them strip naked and run away naked.
An adult. Yeah. So the sexual assaults and violence he endured...
At the reform school, we're definitely coming to the surface here.
Yeah. Like he's using, he's intertwining the two again.
I'm like, isn't he worried about getting sent back, though?
I don't think he cares, because I think he's just like, whatever.
I'll get out again. I'll get out. So I think, and it's like, you can see that he's intertwining now. that violence, humiliation, along with which is no bueno.
No. Not good. No. So eventually his mother tried to get him on a better path.
She was like, I don't want you going down this terrible Wow, Matilda, you felt like mom in 13 years later?
Like, now she's like, oh. We should do something about this kid.
Yeah, it's a little too late, Mathilde. So she was like, what do you want to do?
Do you want to be anything in life? Like, what can we do?
And he was like, I want to be a priest. And...
Oh. And she was like, cool. So she immediately was like calling around.
She got him accepted into a seminary right away.
We know why he wanted to be a priest. Exactly.
He used his charm and ability to manipulate well and did really well there in the classes.
He acted like a model idea of a priest in training.
He was doing well. Everybody loved him there.
Things were fine, but there was one priest there who had his number and was like, there's that kid's dead behind those eyes like that's not a real And he was like, that's empty.
There's evil behind there. I know he's fucking with us.
And Carl's like, what? What are you talking about?
I would never, father. And so while he was there, he challenged Carl at every turn.
He was trying to get that facade to break because he was like, I know some fucked up shit is happening here.
And so he kept going at him, going at him, going at him.
Eventually, he completely broke him. He lost his temper.
And there was a huge fight. I mean, like he like went after this priest and he went from doing you know, being this model student and like going with this facade to all of a sudden he just was like, fuck it.
And now he was going through daily beatings because he's now rebelling.
So this priest broke him, and now he's back to what he was.
Now he's getting daily beatings at this school because he's not listening anymore.
So during this time, he's also stealing money still.
Like he's out because they're just going to school at this seminary.
Yeah, they don't live there. And so he's still stealing money from people, mugging people, stealing booze.
And he's starting to commit home invasions and burglaries, like little ones.
He stole a Colt revolver from a farmer's bedroom and that was like his prized possession.
Now during one beating by the priest that like was on to him. he took the gun and put it between the priest's eyes oh shit and he pulled the trigger Nothing fired.
But he was ready to blow this dude's brains out.
And it's not like this gun was empty. It was just not maintained properly and it jammed.
Wow. So he would have killed him. Fully willing at 13 years old to shoot this priest between the eyes.
Like execution style. Yeah. So no police were called because the beatings of the boys at this place... Were illegal.
They couldn't be doing this, so they wanted to be able to keep doing what they were doing.
So he was also kicked out of this place, though.
Yeah. They kicked him out. And I guess they kicked him out in like a way where they were like, hey, we don't want to piss you off.
So like, are you sure you want to be a priest?
Or like, maybe you want to like... go see if you want to be something else.
And he was like, fuck you guys. And he just left.
Wow. So then he was kicked out of his house too.
Matilda was like, no, thank you. Um, And this is where he starts a very brutal, very awful life. on boxcars and just kind of like floating from here to there like a transient lifestyle that's never good It's never a good thing.
If you're already fucked up. Yeah, no. It's like, it makes me think of like Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Toole lived a very transient lifestyle, and maybe we all know how that went.
So for a while, everything was okay. He's just kind of like, it was chill.
He's, he's like not really interacting with a ton of people, but he's getting along with some people that he meets along the way.
And one night when Carl was 14. Now, this is really fucked up.
So trigger warning right now. trigger warning, trigger warning, rape.
Just letting you know. was 14, he snuck onto a boxcar and four other middle-aged homeless men were in there.
And they had all traveled together for a while and they were sharing some whiskey with them and they're just kind of talking to them.
And they're saying, you know, you seem like a really good boy.
And they start letting their intentions out, like letting him know that we plan to rape you, basically.
And Carl being like, a tough kid was like, fuck you guys, no.
And he was like, no, I'm not doing that.
Um, and he was like, so he stayed, like, stern.
They kept coming at him. Eventually... they violently gang raped him, the four of them.
Like, violently. Jesus Christ. They then threw him out of a moving train with all his shit.
Wow. He somehow survived this, but he woke up from an unconscious state on the ground the next morning, covered in his own blood.
Oh my god. I know. Yeah, so this is another turning point in his life, one would say.
This was when he became obsessed with sodomy.
Oh. Because he saw that sex was always coming along with violence.
There was never a consensual element to sex.
Right. He had never experienced it. He had never seen it.
He was never told about consensual sex. At this point, I'm like, does he even know what sex is? i don't think he knows that sex is you take it when you want it right and it better hurt right that's literally it And he saw that pleasure was only being derived by people through someone else's pain.
Not a good thing. Now remember, when he was in reform school, he would beat the weaker kids to basically get his own punishments passed on to them.
Like he would basically pass his punishments on to weaker kids.
Now he was like, I'm going to pass the pain of this sexual assault on to weaker people and I'm going to do it to them.
Like this, these guys did it to me. I'm going to do it to you now.
Not good. So he literally planned, I'm just going to rape and abuse and humiliate anyone I can find.
Doesn't matter who you are. Wow. Yeah. So now he didn't trust anybody, which I think we can all agree is We get that.
And he started moving, you know, along alone.
He would like come in contact with some people, but he would kind of try to stay away.
The one time he decided to get involved with another group of like other people in his circumstance, he was raped again in a tent city.
Oh my god. So he now raped every single person that he robbed.
And it was mostly men. And we'll see how he feels about women in a second. um he got a gun fire during during another robbery again so he's always you know acquiring guns but then he ends up losing them How do you lose a gun?
I know, right. And he used the gun that he got during the robbery for his further robberies.
And at one point, he was caught by a railway worker raping another transient in a boxcar, and he forced the transient to then rape the railway worker at gunpoint.
Just for his own pleasure. Like, this is the shit he's doing as a teenager.
Jesus. Ew, I feel like after this, I need to take like a really long shower.
This is not like a 40-year-old man. This is a young teenager.
This sounds like a really fucked up movie.
I know. He got arrested for larceny eventually, and he was put in the Red Wing Training School.
And it was easier for him because it wasn't as gnarly as the state reform school, but it was still really bad.
Everything was really bad. He went hard at attacking and, again, sodomizing the boys in the school and... he was getting away with it because they were terrified and also ashamed.
Like this was, they were feeling shamed.
Yeah. Because that's what he was trying to do, humiliate them.
And one guard in particular really wanted to break Carl. and his name was Bushart, I believe, and he was an ex-prize fighter from Boston.
Oh, shit. Hey. Not really excited to have you.
Super psyched about that. Carl says in his book that he just decided he had had enough of his shit one day because he was just getting it constantly from this guy.
And he was like, I was just going to murder him.
Like, that was my plan. So he says, quote...
Every evening in the schoolroom, he used to sit up on top of one of the front seats while he had one of the boys blacken his boots.
He was doing that one evening and I got a board about two feet long and 18 inches wide by one inch thick.
This board was made of hard oak wood and had about three or four pounds of iron on one end of it.
I took this and sneaked up behind him and whacked him on top of his head.
It didn't kill him, but it made him pretty sick and he quit monkeying with me anymore.
Wow. Like wow, Carl. He literally hit him in the head with an iron board.
With like a two by four. Like what the fuck?
Like that's real intense. He did while he was there, however.
Make a friend. No. His first friend. So he made a friend named Jimmy Benson, who was another 15 year old.
He genuinely considered him a friend. This guy, they helped each other escape, so they escaped together from this school.
They successfully did it. And once they were out together, they started breaking into churches together and just like stealing anything they could. burn the churches to the ground.
Yep. So like everything's going okay. Yep.
They did this together for like four months successfully. like they were actually like getting a lot of money from these things because they were selling the things um they were perfectly in sync with each other they just got each other Carl said he didn't feel judged by this guy for like his just thought process.
He felt like he just got it. Unfortunately, Jimmy got caught after four months trying to sell one of the things from these churches.
And he was sent to an adult prison. And Carl didn't see him again until like way later when he was sent to the same prison for that.
But he was devastated. Oh, good. Reunited.
Yeah. But he was devastated because he was alone now and he had lost the only person he considered a friend.
So he took all the money he got from their adventures and he went on to Kansas.
Onyem. Onyem. He was 15 at the time. 15.
15. Remember, this kid is 15. It's like blowing my mind.
Every time I say an age, I'm like, oh, he's not 47.
Yeah, that is bizarre. Oh, he's not 63. So this is when he lied about his age and joined the army.
Oh. Yeah. He was amazingly skilled at the physical part of it. completely because he can handle anything and he was like a jacked kid like and he was a jacked adult like he's a scary motherfucker I gotta look him up.
But the thing he was having issues with was he could not take an order from someone.
And he definitely couldn't take it unless you were beating him down.
Oh, good. Because he wasn't used to taking orders unless being beaten. right he was like i'm not just gonna accept what you say he's like i don't care which is a problem So only a couple of weeks in, he ended up stealing a ton of uniforms and he was attempting to sneak off base to sell them.
This is Carl. That's Carl. Wow. That's Carl.
I would not want to meet Carl in a dark alley or even at an IHOP. hop to be honest he had a mustache at one point too so yeah i'm just i'm just saying I don't know if that adds to the scary or not.
He's less scary with the mustache. Yeah, facial hair always kind of just adds an element of like, huh. you a muppet i don't know yeah so he was caught you know stealing these uniforms and trying to sell them And his superiors were pretty ready to just kind of like move on and try to reform him because the offense wasn't violent.
It was kind of dumb. Yeah. It's not good, but it's like not... It's like whatever.
And so they were just kind of like, all right, well, we have to go through the chain of command.
Well, the Secretary of War for President Theodore Roosevelt at the time was William Howard Taft.
I know that man. So it had to go up the chain of command to him and he was going to have to dole out the punishment.
Well, he was like, I'm going to make an example of Carl.
Okay, Taft. Which, as you'll see throughout this whole thing, a lot of people try to make an example out of Carl.
And I'm like, why him? Like, why did you all choose him?
I don't know. It's just weird. So he dishonorably discharged him.
And he was thrown in Fort Leavenworth Prison, which at the time was apparently one of the worst prisons in the United States.
Oh no. For stealing uniforms. And for this relatively innocuous crime he committed.
Uh, this whole time he was being told, you know, no big deal.
We're gonna get you off. You're not gonna have to serve anything.
And then he immediately just gets hit with this news that you are dishonorably discharged and you're going to Fort Leavenworth prison.
For a term of seven years. For stealing uniforms.
Yes. He was raped and beaten and tortured there, of course.
Punishments were things like standing outside in the yard at attention the entire night.
Jesus. And one thing that happened to Carl often was he started gaining some respect by fighting back at the guards and they would in return put a straitjacket on him and tighten it until he lost consciousness.
Okay, normal. And this happened daily. Normal.
I don't know if you guys have lost count.
I think I have. But now his brain is being deprived of oxygen daily.
Good. So on the meter of like, oh shit, he's gonna- It's broken.
It- Yeah, it busted. The meter broke about 25 minutes ago.
It's gone. We don't even have it anymore.
So that's good. after a year here, he was huge and jacked.
Yeah, he's a big boy. He's just a meaty dude.
Yeah. And he just was... fucked at this point he's huge and he's fucked up and he's like 17
Exactly. What the fuck? And this is when he starts thinking, I want revenge.
I want revenge on everyone who has ever hurt me.
Getting angrier and angrier. I kind of want revenge on everyone who's hurt Carl too at this point.
And I don't like the feeling that I feel.
It's a weird thing. it's one of those things where you're like you didn't have a shot and life really shit on you and you shit right back on life and I don't know what to say about it I don't either But he's real bad.
Like, he's real bad. Horrible. And he gets worse.
So... At this point, you can almost be like, fuck, life is really shitting on you.
But later you're like, dude. What? Right.
So, yeah. So, at this point, and for the rest of his life, he would say he hates... human kind.
He hates humans. He hates everyone. Like you said, he wants to kill everyone.
I wonder why. Yeah, he just wants to kill everyone.
And what he wants to do was he was like, I was living for revenge on those rapists who like really fucked me up.
Yeah. Like, I want revenge. But it's like, then why did you go do that to other people?
Because his way of thinking, you know? So he was at this place until 1910, and it was at this time that he really, truly turned into a monster.
Mm-hmm. And he said in his book quote. Well, I was a pretty rotten egg before I went there But when I left there, all the good that ever may have been in me had been kicked and beaten out of me long before.
All that I had in my mind at the time was a strong determination to raise plenty of hell with anybody and everybody in every way I could."
Every time and place I could. I was the spirit of meanness personified.
I had not at this time got so that I hated myself.
I only hated everyone else which is really scary Um, so now he's traveling the same way he did before, just hopping on trains and, you know, like getting places any way he can.
He's 19 at the time. He's huge. He's built.
And actually, at the time, people described him as weirdly handsome.
So he was able to like manipulate his way.
I could see that. He's not like a disgusting looking person.
No. he's a scary looking guy, but I could see how at the time people would, if he was charming and sweet to you, you'd be like, oh, okay, he's kind of handsome.
Yeah. I get it. But this is how he would manipulate his way into like, oh, raping and pillaging his way across the United States.
Awesome. And again, he's all about revenge and pain at this point.
And he is inflicting it on anyone he can.
At the end of this, he says it was over a thousand people that he sodomized.
Jesus Christ. He was just on a rampage. He would also really only rape men, which I mentioned earlier.
I didn't want to ruin anything, but does he have any women victims?
He really doesn't. So he always said that he preferred to rape men because women were unclean.
Excuse me. You wonder if one maybe that's taught by a mom with a lot of boys. in that time she seemed like she was kind of fucked up that could be like one of those like women are unclean, you know, like telling your boys that.
Well, and he's been like in every religious facility ever back then.
And these aren't like actual religious. They're like fucked up religious.
And this is like way back in the early 1900s when like shit was fucked.
And, yeah, he's probably learning a lot about, like, unclean, like, hoes that you don't want to go near.
You know what I mean? This is not CCD. No, certainly not.
So he did have one victim that was a woman.
He raped her on a train. And he contracted an STD immediately.
So that's probably another reason why he thought that.
He was like, well, they were right. All women are unclean.
Oh, man. It was just bad luck, really. Right.
The way he said about it was, the worst has yet to come about a week later when I found that my collection also included a fine first class, class case of gonorrhea i began to suspect that the ladies were very good things to leave alone oh So it's like, okay, Carl.
Now, one of the things here is he was definitely gay.
I was going to say. And he definitely didn't understand that.
He definitely didn't accept that about himself because he will say forever, I'm not.
But I think he just didn't understand what a consensual relationship was.
So I don't think he... I don't think he really defined himself or could define himself as anything.
I don't even think he had a sexuality. He almost seems like... like he just didn't have any, it was just rape, violence.
Well, because that's the thing. If you're thinking he's not really sexually attracted to anybody.
He's not sexually motivated. He's like. So he's not asexual, obviously.
No, he's just... I think he's just a whole different...
He's just, I honestly think he's just broken.
I think he's broken and he has no capacity to have a feeling like that. yeah that's how i see it at least i don't know if anybody else has an idea of what this could be, definitely talk to us about it.
But he got arrested again, of course, for stealing.
He spent some more time in jail. And he went back to robbing churches and arson.
He's just causing mayhem everywhere. When he was out, he got his first real job.
And this was at the Kansas State Fair. And he became part of Colonel Dickey's Wild West show.
Yeah, he did. It's like a carnage. Yeah, he did.
Yeah, he did. Colonel Dickey's Wild West show, motherfucker, we're in town.
Yeah, so that sounds awesome. It's about the only moment of reprieve I've had throughout this whole fucking thing.
Well, in his job, because they were like, whoa, you're a big motherfucker and you're scary.
Strongman. So you know what you can do?
You can just keep the angry carnies in line.
Like, we just want you to keep peace. Like, just scare them.
It's so funny because the whole time you're talking about these like boxcars and everything, all I can picture is like carnival life.
Yeah. And it basically is. Like, that's what it is.
So he ended up getting fired. He was really good at his job because he could beat the shit out of everyone. but he was too good and he got fired when a horse bumped into him.
And he punched it in the face. Oh, no, no, no.
And the carnies were like, that's not cool, because...
Our animals are like, what this is all about.
So they fired him. Except not our elephants.
Well, he was not happy. He was not happy.
And remember, he gets revenge when he's not happy and he felt slighted.
So it was intense. I knew it. There it is.
Did anybody get that joke? I hope you did.
It's a dad joke. So Carl responded to this by waiting until nightfall.
And he snuck on the show's train because they were going to another city.
So he snuck on the train. He went with them to their next stop.
They set up their camp to stay for the night.
Carl snuck out in the middle of the night and set fire to the horse tent and the food tent.
Oh no. the horses ran around the camp on fire oh gosh and lit all of the other tents on fire oh not one animal survived oh All the stuff burned to the ground and the circus was done.
Like literally destroyed the circus. Done.
I don't even care about the circus. I care about the animals. entire thing from like a high vantage point like watched it all happen like smiling and he said he was so happy watching it wow because he said like well now it's done what like just for firing me the fuck He fired them.
Yeah, I'm saying. So then he went on to Illinois and At the time, the Illinois Railroad Company was dealing with a strike, striking workers, And strike breakers at the time were either scabs, which we know what scabs are.
They're like people who work when the strikers won't work.
They'll work for the same wages. Or there's things called black legs, apparently, at the time.
Oh, good. And they were literally used to just run at the picket line and beat the shit out of the striking workers to try to like literally beat them into relenting.
You think I'm going to work after you beat me?
So do you think Carl was a scab or a black leg?
Blackleg. He sure was. And he did great at it.
And he earned some money. I believe. And the way that he was picked for this was they just saw him and were like, hey, you look like a big bitch.
Do you want to beat some people up? And he was like, yeah.
Like, they literally just grabbed him and were like, do you want to beat the shit out of those people?
We'll pay you. And he was like, okay. The 1900s were a time.
It was wild. And this is Carl, too. Wild Dickies, wild wild.
This is just Carl being like, oh, I get to beat the shit out of people for money?
Sure. This is horrible. Now, he went on his way.
And this is when he became involved in something that's really fucked up.
Oh, like you're saying that this is when shit gets weird.
Is it? Yeah. Because shit's been weird this whole damn time.
This is when it gets fucked up. so this is there was something at the time in like the transient community where you would sometimes be called the yeg Yeg?
The Yeg is an older male transient who acquires a younger teen boy. that he would call a punk or an Angelina.
And they would use this boy for, like, anything.
Mainly a sex slave. Yep. But also to like, you know, do robberies with and, you know, burglaries and just like get around and used to manipulate all that fun stuff.
Awesome. They were treated as property. They were like traded among each other.
Usually they would like abduct a younger person and then they would just keep them until they could be this so that's fun great and carl bought you know carl just bought one He acquired one.
Because he was like, it seems like the next step in my monsterdom to just own another person...
So what the fuck is happening here? He described this boy as a curly haired, blue eyed, rosy cheeked fat boy. good didn't give a name because he was like I don't really give a shit he probably didn't remember probably not Together, they became pretty good at stealing and burglaring together in a team.
And he eventually got a lot of money from it and he got more guns.
So things were going well for them. Probably not for the Angelina or the.
Punk, whatever. Probably not for society.
But the pair was arrested doing this and forced to work on a road crew together.
He was arrested with the name Jeff Davis at the time.
He used a lot of aliases. Okay, I was going to say, because when I Googled Carl serial killer, Jeff Davis came up.
Yeah. The crew boss during this actually refused to release Carl when his time was up. because he was such a hard worker and he's such a big guy.
He was like, you can do a lot of work. So he just wouldn't release him, even though his time was up.
And so Carl tried to escape, but was caught.
And his punishment was, again, he was technically a free man, but he was punished for escaping.
No, not even escape, just leaving. For trying to escape.
For leaving. And he was punished by something called the snorting pole.
Do you want to know what the snorting bowl is?
No, but I'm sure you're gonna tell me. I'm gonna tell you.
This was a 12 foot pole with a loop on the top where a rope was put through and then it was tied into a pair of handcuffs that the prisoner would wear and And that person was hoisted up until their toes were barely touching the ground.
And then like a strapado almost. And then they were stripped naked and whipped in this position.
And they did this to him for an hour. Oh.
He didn't make a sound. He didn't look bothered by it at all.
So of course this terrified the guards and the crew boss.
They cut him down and he said, by the way, that this left him with, quote, blood on his back and murder in his heart.
And the boss was so terrified that he let him go immediately.
Like, cut him down and was like, please leave.
I'm scared of you. Okay. Like that's how scary he was.
Carl is a demon. Sure is. Sure is. He went out to Oregon and continued his spree of just raping and robbing people.
Because he was like, fuck that. Nothing can hold me down.
I'm just going to keep going. So he even stole a yacht at some point.
But crashed it and had to swim back to shore.
He does this another time. What is Carl's life?
This whole time. This is why I was like, yeah, we're only gonna get to the first murder. but like strap in.
Also, it's like, Carl, come on. You could have had a yacht, just like yacht around by yourself.
You hate everyone else. Just yacht it out.
I don't care if you stole it. Yeet, yacht, yes.
So this whole time, he's also buried his stashes of things he's stolen, like Ron Swanson, just around places.
And eventually his bragging got the best of him when he was in San Francisco because he was bragging about all the things he was stealing.
And he was caught by two police officers and brought in front of a judge.
I'm surprised he didn't just kill the police officers on the spot.
Right? So he was arrested using the name Jeff Baldwin this time.
We love a Jeff. Jeff Baldwin. He was given a deal and the deal was that he gives up the locations of the stolen shit and then he would get like a tiny sentence. so he was like oh cool so he immediately confessed to it and was like here's all the locations So he thought he was only getting months because this plea deal was supposed to be awesome.
But when he arrived at the Oregon State Penitentiary, he found out that the judge had bullshitted him.
Isn't that illegal? And gave him a full seven years for grand larceny.
He was pissed. So he lost his stuff and had to go to jail.
Yep. So pissed was he, in fact, that he used his bare hands to bend the bars in his cell and open them.
And go raging through the prison. Carl cannot be stopped.
He's like, I'm sorry. That was Patricia.
He truly is. can't. Carl and Patricia are a team.
He can't. be stopped so he blocked all the exits and like stuffed rags and all the locks and beat the shit out of every guard, like leaving a path of blood and destruction while the prisoners just looked on.
Carl could not be detained. He sent fire to part of the prison.
This is not funny. It's just chaos. Carl's like, you ain't gonna tie me down.
Why you wanna roll? He's so chaotic. What the fuck?
His energy is like mass destruction. And so it started a whole evacuation where they had to take the prisoners out because now there's a fire.
Who even did that though? The guards that are left are putting all the prisoners into the yard.
And they're all escaping. All the prisoners are literally cheering for Carl.
Fuck! And this was a big issue because now the guards are looking weak as fuck because the prisoners are now like, you idiots.
Because carnage. Carl opened his cell with his bare hands is why.
What the fuck? Well, this is a bummer for Carl.
So they were like, they finally got Carl.
They detained him. after he was raging around, they threw him down in the prison yard and broke both of his ankles with hammers.
They then immediately threw him into solitary and let his bones just set themselves.
So he was just laying on the floor with two broken ankles.
Yeah. So after a couple days, they rip him out of there and they transfer him.
Can you just hold on while my ankles catch up?
Yeah. Oh, fuck. Fuck me. While they sat in the right places unlike Carl's.
Oh. And after After a few days they transferred him to the worst prison in the United States at the time, the Salem Correctional Facility in Oregon.
He went under the name of Jefferson Baldwin.
He was ruthlessly beaten immediately. He was chained up face first against his cell door for hours and hours on end.
He was also chained to the wall and had a fire hose blasted at him long enough that his eyes swelled shut.
He had his own guard whose only job was to break Carl.
Like it was a sign to him? This isn't real.
This guard's name was Vinegar. No, it wasn't.
No, it was not. And he had a special punishment called the hummingbird.
This was essentially a weird and small version of the electric chair.
Uh huh. Now Carl was taken into a room. He was chained up in a, um, so he was put in like a, a tub. basically a steel tub there was a loop in the middle of the tub and they would literally chain his hands and ankles to that loop so he was like in this weird crunched up position and then vinegar would come in they would fill the tub with ice water oh Already that sucks.
And then vinegar had a sponge and a battery and he would slowly just start electrocuting Carl with like really focused currents.
And he did this like daily. Yeah. So he lost it.
And is Carl like 22 these days? Pretty much.
And so he ended up going crazy. He lit another part of the prison on fire. caused a riot and broke a ton of the prisoners out of the place.
And he couldn't fit out of a window that he broke.
So he just like got other prisoners out.
Wow. Yeah. A Robin Hood of prison. And the way he said it was, next I robbed the storeroom and stole a few dozen bottles of lemon extract. which I took out to the gang in the yard and got them all drunk and steamed them all up to raise hell and battle the screw.
They did just as I suggested. They ran all the yard screws ragged.
I didn't drink at all. Okay. So he's just like watching mayhem now.
He's causing it, watching it. You know what?
I think he's a little tired at this point.
Yeah, he's tired. So he's like, I got to get it somewhere.
So let's just make everybody else do it.
Well, for this he got the dungeon. Now, it was a basement solitary cell with no food.
No food was given to him or light. But he's used to that from childhood.
Well, and he was left there for up to 60 days.
Wow. He could only feel around in the pitch black for cockroaches to eat.
That's what he did and he was smart and when he came out he kept hatching plans to escape and getting other prisoners to escape, which is breaking down the morale of the guards.
And at this point, a young prisoner, I think he was like 21 at the time, named Otto Hooker escaped, and then the superintendent, whose name was Harry Minto, He's the guy who really had it out for Carl this whole time was like giving him all these punishments.
Mm-hmm. He went after this kid who escaped.
And this kid, Otto Hooker, shot Minto the warden dead.
What? Now he himself was also killed during this but whatever.
The murder was attributed to Carl basically. because he helped Otto escape and basically gave him the plan for what to do.
And another seven years was tacked onto his sentence.
So he was there for 14 years now. Yeah. Now they got a new superintendent that took over.
Probably not good. John Wilson Minto, which is Harry Minto's brother.
So he's mad. He's pissed. And he decided to create a new punishment for everybody in the prison called the bullpen.
What's the bullpen, you ask? I didn't. I can see it in your eyes.
You just want to know. I did not ask. The bullpen was a circle drawn in chalk in a huge room.
Every single inmate had to stay in that circle. for 14 hours a day with their hands on the shoulders of the man in front of them, and they had to walk around in a circle the entire time without stopping.
Where the fuck did he come up with that while playing musical chairs?
Not real sure. What the fuck? Well, if you stepped out of the circle. dropped your hands off someone's shoulders or stopped walking, you would be shot immediately.
Dead? Yep. It was just a way to murder prisoners, basically.
What the fuck? I have had the whip, the paddle, the snorting pole, the hummingbird, the hose, the jacket, chained up frontwards, backwards, bucked and gagged, spread-eagled, water-cured, starved, beaten, thrown into sweat boxes and half-cooked. thrown into ice dungeons and half frozen.
I have been in solitary confinement for years at a time where I could have no privileges or priv- or pleasures of any kind, every single thing in life that men hold worthwhile and that go to make life worth living for,
I have been denied and deprived of. I have gone through every conceivable kind of torture that one man or body of men can impose on another man. that's not wrong.
And it's like, yeah, you're right. Correct.
Now, Now luckily the state did find out about this and how this new superintendent was working things and they fired this sadist immediately. and they hired a new superintendent.
Now this new superintendent I think his name was Murphy.
He completely reformed this prison. Prison.
I've done that before. Prison. I don't know why.
Prison. An abolished all the harsh punishments.
Wow. Like the bullpen was gone, all that.
I was not expecting that. All of a sudden it's a turnaround.
This superintendent actually... brought Carl into his office and was like, I want to talk to you like a human being.
And he did. And Carl was like, what's a human being?
Well, and Carl's literally like, I'm, and he said, he was like, I was going to rebel against that now.
Like if you're going to treat me subhuman, I'm going to rebel against you.
And if you're going to treat me like a human, I'm going to rebel against that. okay like there's nothing you can do to make me go soft that was his idea now then one day he was like carl come in here so he was like hey Would it make you feel better if you could just leave for the day?
Like I open the gates and you leave. And then if you just promise to come back for supper.
Uh-huh. And Carl was like. Huh. This guy thought that was a good idea.
Well, and he was taking a risk. So he was like, I'm going to see what happens here.
So he was like, do you want to do that? And Carl was like, yeah. yeah i want to do that and so he did and what he said in his book was i just walked around a little while to see if any screws were washed me but I didn't see any so I sat down and tried to dope out what it was all about.
Of one thing I was sure, I could have gone if I cared to.
Because he did. He left. He was just like sitting on a rock somewhere being like, what the fuck is going on?
And another thing I was sure of was that there wasn't any more honor about me than the stone I was sitting on.
I just thought as I couldn't understand what it was all about that I would stick around a while and see what happened and then I would sure beat it after a few days.
That evening, I walked up to the gate of the prison and demanded to be let back in.
Spud Murphy was waiting for me. He asked me why I didn't beat it.
I told him I didn't know. So he actually did do this, came back and demanded to be let back in. and he came back in that's interesting so it worked right weirdly enough spud Spud is on it, so he actually did pretty well after this. like this superintendent like had discussions with him like talked freely with him and the other inmates was like very into like let's treat them like humans.
He was given a ton of freedom. He convinced him to join the baseball team, which they formed there, and a marching band that was in prison.
And when he couldn't get certain, he was like, I'm too stupid to know how to do this instrument.
He was like, all right, then be the band leader.
And he just, like, put him as that. So he was, like, genuinely trying to be, like, you can be a better person if you just decide to be.
Right. Which is, like... bonkers this guy was a hippie and a half yeah i love him and it seemed to work But then May 12th, 1918, Carl was like, I'm out of here.
Because he was like, this isn't, something's going to go wrong.
Basically, he was seeing it as like, this is too good to be true and shit's going to go down and I want to get out before it does.
Aw. So he escaped because he basically was unable to be treated like an equal.
Like he couldn't handle being treated like an equal person.
Right. And because of his escape, this guy was fired.
Oh no. And he felt terrible. For once in his life, he said he felt guilt.
Because he was like, I fucked over the only person who treated me like a human being.
That's so strange. Which further made him slip into this role of his, which is I am not capable. of having a relationship with someone.
And now I don't want to. To the only person who treated me nicely is I fucked over their whole life.
So like... fuck me like i'm shit so why should i even try right so it's just nothing is rolling in his favor This is such a case study.
It is. It fascinates me. So he changed his name to John O'Leary as an alias at this point.
And he did this to each new place he went.
He would have a different alias in every place he went.
He was arrested several more times and he escaped every single time he was arrested.
And then he realized he needed a job. But who is going to take him?
So he joined the Foreign Legion of the Constitutionalist Army of Northern Mexico.
But he only did that for a short period of time.
And then he ended up returning to California.
So nothing really happened while he was there.
He said, quote, during this time, I was busy robbing chicken coops.
And then touching a match to them, I burned old barns, sheds, fences, snow sheds, anything I could.
And then I couldn't but when I couldn't burn anything else, I would set fire to the grass on the prairies or the woods, anything and everything.
I had a pistol and I would spend all my spare change for bullets.
I would take pot shots at farmers' houses through the windows.
If I saw cows or horses in the fields, I would cut them loose.
Okay. So it's just like mayhem. Like mass pandemonium.
And all the books I read about this said like there's no murders attributed to this part, but like he definitely could have shot someone.
Because he was shooting through windows.
Right. Just willy nilly as he drove by on a train. okay so he was also raping people anyone he came across he was not picky He says, quote, it made no difference to me at all, except that they were human beings.
That's all he cared about when it came to sodomizing people.
So it was at this time that he was in Texas and he saw a young man leaving his job in the oil fields.
And this young man was leaving with a thick wad of cash from a day's work.
So he attacked him. He did the same thing he always does.
He was robbing him, of course. in a secluded place and then he beat him and raped him but he was choking him while he did this.
The man died during the attack. Yep. Carl all of a sudden was like, whoa, what a rush.
Love to that. So this is his first actual murder that he's like, oh!
This is real pain. Like, this is really what I could do.
Dude, the fact that that is the first murder and what are we like an hour and a half in?
Yeah. Yeah. And we are gonna end in a second, but I'll give you one more little example.
He then moved to New York City and he decided he wanted to get back I love this.
All of a sudden he's like, you know who really fucked me over in my life?
William Howard Taft. Because he's the one who handed down that initial one that sent him to Leavenworth.
He did. And that's where shit really went down.
So he broke into Tapp's home in New Haven.
Shut the fuck up. while he was away, stole tons of jewelry, bonds, cash, tons of shit.
He also stole a .45 caliber pistol. And he did this because he said, I wanted to use it to commit further crimes because I knew they would all be traced back to William Howard Taft.
And even though they would know he didn't do it, he would have to be reminded every single time I committed a crime that I bested him.
What the fuck? So he sold a ton of the shit in Manhattan.
He got like $10,000. Damn. And so now he's like rolling.
Holy cow. He then bought a fucking boat with that money.
A yacht. A yacht. He's yachting. So now.
Carl is such a yachty. So now he's just buying.
He's robbing other boats. Below Deck, am I right?
Below Deck Panzram Edition. So now he's a pirate.
So now he's a pirate. He's robbing other boats and people all up and down the river.
And so then he went back to Manhattan and he was like, wait, I can just go in bars. and I can pick up these sailors who need jobs in between their work.
And he's like, so he would promise them, you know, He would promise them it's going to be easy work.
You're going to get a lot of pay. I'll give you a meal. you know lots of alcohol just work for me for a couple days and these guys were like cool all right Why not?
And they would. He would work for the day.
He would give them a big meal. lots of alcohol because we have to make sure that they are very drunk.
And once they were too drunk to properly fight back, he would attack them and rape them.
And he says, quote, I'm going to end on this quote by Carl himself.
Quote, when they were asleep, I would get my 45 Colts Army automatic that I stole from Mr. Taft's home and blow their brains out.
Then I would take a rope and tie a rock on them and put them in my rowboat, row out to the main channel about one mile and drop them overboard.
They're still there, ten of them. I worked that racket about three weeks.
My boat was full of stolen stuff and the people at City Island were beginning to look queer at me.
So the next two sailors I hired, I kept alive and at work.
And that's where we're going to end for part one of Carl Panzram.
All I have to tell you, everybody listening, is do not ever... ever, ever, ever, ever, ever keep it that weird.
I don't even think you're capable of keeping that weird.
And if you're listening, I genuinely hope that You're not.
Yeah, don't keep it this weird at all. What the fuck?
How are we not done yet? Karl Panzram, we are just... hitting the, like, Whoa.
I'm like. No, we're not. We're just hitting like the.
It started off with a whoa. It started off with like whoa.
And now we're at like, whoa, like it's going to get even worse.
I feel like I'm desensitized. I think Carl was desensitized.
I think you're desensitizing me through this process of morbid.
So guys. The FBI should just listen to Morbid sometimes, I think.
I mean, maybe. I hope not. But like me. Maybe they should.
What is happening? If you're thinking you want to read these things that I was reading for this, Don't.
A couple of the things that I grabbed were Pan's Ram, Butchering Humanity.
It's by Carl. It's a short read. It's really fucked up.
He says a lot of inappropriate and offensive things, just so you know.
Awesome. There's also Kill Em All, and it's by Ryan Green.
And I think it's called A True Story of Abuse and the Making of a Murderer, I think it is, or a Serial Killer.
Kill them all, basically. That's a great one.
He goes really into it. I'm going to be watching something else for part two, so we'll get even more goodies for you.
Alrighty. You can follow us on Instagram if you haven't left by now at Morbid podcast.
You could also talk to us on Twitter and ask Elena why she picked this.
It's crazy. This is really good. I'm totally kidding.
A morbid podcast. Send us an email about how this really fucked you up.
Yeah, tell me about it. And if you're feeling like you need to be consoled after this, buy a shirt with a booty on it at shop.morbidpodcast.com.
Do it. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird.
But not so weird that you're Carl. Don't fucking Carl it, man.
Bye. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.
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