Episode 139: John Wayne Gacy Part 3 | Morbid

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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.

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Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.

Morbid. And it's the two of us this week.

It is. It's just me and Ash. Just us. Just the OGs.

The OGs of the morbid. But... Having Emma on was a fucking blast, guys.

A blast and like not to be like fangirl 101, but a fucking dream come true.

It really was. It was kind of surreal. It was like, whoa.

They're just so easy to talk to. I felt like I was hanging out with an old friend.

Yeah. truly did like i think they were saying at one point that they felt like uh like they knew us already and that we feel the same way about them so it was funny that it all just kind of clicked and we were like oh we've all just hung out before right like it was exciting and it was it was exciting and it was just fun and it was a chill ass time It really was.

These collabs during quarantine have been so much fun.

Because it's just been cool to connect with other creators and just... get different points of views and it's been fun to kind of sprinkle these in.

It is fun. I enjoy it quite a bit. And actually, later this week, we have a second guest for the show.

We do. And I'm sure this one will be easier to guess, but...

You know, you just never know who's going to be awesome.

It's going to be awesome. It's going to be great.

And you know. Like we've been doing, we're going to be doing the same, you know, like just the Ash and I episodes in between.

You'll still be getting the same amount of Ash and My episodes.

So these collab episodes are just bonus episodes, really.

So enjoy. Enjoy. And then actually, we're going to be putting out a Patreon episode in the next couple days.

I think I'm recording it tonight. Yes. With a special guest.

A very fun one. Yes. Woohoo! Special guest, special guest.

Special guests all around. And tonight we're going to be finishing up the fucking hellscape that is John Wayne Gacy.

I'm pretty stoked to wrap it up with him.

Yeah, I'm really psyched to be out of this man's psyche and out of his world after this.

I'm going to take a step back from John Wayne Gacy.

I feel like I smell him now, so I need to be away from it.

I'm excited to not be exposed to his psyche anymore.

Right? And I'm glad not to be giving it to you.

So that's good. Thank you. The exposed and the expose.

We're glad to be just out of it. But no, this has been crazy because I found out some stuff during research that I didn't know.

Which I always feel like I do. I always end up finding something that I'm like, well, shit.

It is fun. But... But it'll be nice to wrap this one up because this one wraps up in a nice bow where we can say bye bye, John.

Bye bye. And we can say kiss my ass. How about that?

Kiss my ass. Well, before we delve into the end, the final, the finale of John Wayne Gacy... we are going to shout out some shows.

We sure are. So these are being rescheduled June 2nd and June 3rd.

June 2nd is at the Good Nights Comedy Club in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Carolina and June 3rd is at the Comedy Zone in Charlotte, North Carolina.

We will let you know the reschedule dates.

We just don't have them yet. Just hang on to those tickets because they will go wherever we go.

Yes. October 11th, we have two shows at Talia Hall in Chicago, Illinois.

That's gonna be so much fun, guys. I'm really excited for that one.

July 8th at the Comedy Works South in Greenwood Village, Colorado, which I just found out is sold out.

Yeah, Colorado. Thanks for selling us out.

What what? The reschedule date for the Wilbur is the...

I believe it's the 26th, right? Yeah, it's going to be in 2021.

Yeah, so that's fun. Yeah, so I think it's going to be March 26th, 2021, I believe. i think that's the new date uh you'll be informed of it anyways but we'll make sure to tell you And then the 11th of August, we're going to be in Philadelphia at the Punchline Comedy Club.

September 16th, we're going to be in Washington, D.C. at the D.C.

Improv. The 23rd of September will be in Nashville.

Tennessee, two shows at Zany's. And last but not least, the 24th of September, Huntsville, Alabama at Stand Up Live.

Alabama! So there we go, guys. We're gonna make these happen.

We just, we're rolling with it. We're rolling with the homies.

I watched Clueless the other night. Yeah, such a good show.

Such a good show. That actually was a good show.

It was a good show at one point. wait was it really it was a show you didn't know it was a show I did not know it was a show I'm pretty sure that movie came out maybe the year I was born Yeah, I'm pretty sure it did.

Yeah. Yeah. Either that or before you were born.

And yeah, it was a show at one point and it had the original Amber in the show. oh but it didn't have Alicia Silverstone oh hell no she wasn't gonna do a show well see then I don't care but it still worked The girl who played Cher Horowitz, I can't remember her name now and people are probably screaming it at me, but she was great.

So... You always say that I'm just like Cher and Clueless.

And actually, Annie quite agrees with you.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think everybody listening right now, I think, can agree that you are sure from Clueless.

You know what? I vibe with that. But the only thing that I'm going to need if I really am fucking share from Clueless is that computer program to put my fucking clothes together in the morning.

Yeah, you should have that. I'm actually sad that you don't.

I feel like if anybody should have that at their disposal, it's you.

Thank you. I appreciate that. You're welcome.

We'll talk to people in Silicon Valley and we'll see if we can make it happen for you.

Yeah, hit me up with a computer program.

App people out there. What up? App people.

So I think on that note, we will just dive right into part three.

Okay. Final part. Of John Wayne motherfucking Gacy.

We went from one end of the spectrum to the complete opposite.

Yeah, I mean, I think a perfect segue between worlds is Cher Horwitz.

I quite agree. I don't know why. Do I keep saying I quite something, something, something?

You do. You very much. Yeah, I don't know if I've been watching like British television or like what the deal is.

Yeah, I have. Have you been listening? Have you have you been watching Downton Abbey?

No. It's very proper. I like it. Thank you.

Also, just before we start, this gnarly thunderstorm just started where I live.

So this is like perfect timing. Yeah, and as I'm looking outside right now, it's getting like super dark and spooky and I'm assuming it's rolling my way right now.

So, you know. I don't know if you can hear the thunder, but it's fucking insane.

And I'm in the attic. So it's shaking the attic.

I love that for you. That's fun. All right.

Well, John Wayne Gacy, let's get it. Well, when we left off in part two, we had left off when he had brutally murdered 15-year-old Robert Parker. on his mother's birthday, which was December 11th, 1978.

This same year, which this is just an interesting little note, same year, 1978, before he had killed Robert, He took a photo with Rosalind Carter.

Oh, I've seen this photo. Yeah, so he took a photo with the first lady, Rosalind Carter.

He was the director of the Polish Constitution Day Parade. which is like, I guess it's an annual parade and it celebrates the advent of democratic government in Poland.

And he was the director. He had been the director for three years in a row.

Oh, damn. And in order to meet Rosalyn and get that photo, he had to have Secret Service clearance, which he received.

That is bananas that John Wayne Gacy received secret service clearance.

What the fuck? It's... It's beyond words because in order for him to get that, they talked to like later when all this was found out, they talked to the, because the Secret Service got a ton of shit for this, because they were like, you literally let the most prolific serial killer in American history at that point into a photo with the first lady of the United States of America.

Yeah. What happened there? What breakdown of community?

Because it's not like he was this squeaky queen.

Queen. Squeaky queen. He was not a squeaky queen.

No, he was not a squeaky queen at that point.

No, he was not a squeaky clean little innocent boy at that point.

He had a sodomy charge on him that he went to prison for before this.

And then, like, multiple other accusations.

Not even accusations. They fucking happened, but...

Well, and when they asked the Secret Service later, they were like, what happened there?

Why did you not? And they were like, yeah.

We might not have looked into where he lived before those records.

So they literally admitted we didn't check to see where he lived before if he had a record.

So he had that record. And they just let him skate by.

Which loosely translates into, we didn't feel like doing our job that day.

Like, holy shit, the incompetence. That's unbelievable.

Yeah. So that's just crazy. Now, going back to after he killed Robert, he said that he stripped him of his clothes...

Um, and he stuffed cloth down his throat because remember that's like his thing.

Um, And he does that, like I said in part two, because he doesn't like that after you die, you tend to leak fluids and that can get messy.

So he stuffs something down your throat so it doesn't come out of your throat.

That's awful. Yeah, super awesome. So he went through Robert's clothing and like he he liked to put the clothing, which this is really fucked up.

He drives a lot of the boys' clothing to a Salvation Army clothing donation box.

Yeah. And he did that with Robert. You're shitting me.

I am not shitting you. So he's like. And he'll just.

Yeah. That's fucked up. Yeah, he's just donating his victim's clothing so people unknowingly could have been wearing this kid's, not only clothing, but the clothing he died in.

That's like, well, it is worse, but it reminds me of, was it Ivan Milat, who his girlfriend was wearing the shirt of one of his victims?

Yes. Yep, there was a photo of her wearing the shirt, and it's haunting as fuck.

But he's dead, so fuck that guy. So he went through Robert's clothing.

He went through the pockets. And he liked to just take things out because as we find out later, John Wayne Gacy loves to keep trophies.

He loves to keep things. He was keeping the, I mean, he would keep bracelets, rings. licenses, just anything.

He would really just keep anything and it really bit him in the ass later because a lot of them were traced back to his victims.

So he went through the pockets and he ended up finding a receipt from the pharmacy where Robert worked, where he had picked him up from.

And it was a receipt for developing film.

So Gacy took that and he just kind of put it away.

Now, so then he drove to the Salvation Army donation box, dumped his clothing.

And this is that same evening. Robert's parents went to the Des Plaines Police Department and reported him missing.

Like that night at like 1130, I believe it was.

Because again, this was he was an honor student.

He was a good kid. He was close to his family.

This was the wrong... the wrong victim to choose not that any of them deserve it at all but this was the one that was gonna get him caught this is a big mistake yeah um but he liked to choose you know victims that would be like a lot of these assholes choose that would be quote unquote less dead You know, like sex workers and transients and drug addicts.

It's people who these assholes assume the police are not going to allocate a lot of resources for. and that their families are probably not going to be looking for them because they assume they're runaways.

But so December 12th, the day after Robert was abducted and killed, Gacy's now suddenly being looked at by the police.

So very quickly, they were like, yeah, he was the last person seen with Robert and he was seen at the pharmacy by plenty of people. and he's a known creep when it comes to teen boys right everyone knows he's a fucking creep So he was called on December 12th and the police were like, what do you know about this disappearance?

And he was like, I don't know anything about it.

Like, yeah, I saw him that night, but last night, but I didn't I didn't do anything.

So Lieutenant Joe Kozenczak was put on the case.

He was only named chief of detectives a year before this.

So he was like pretty new, but he was like, fuck this guy.

I'm going to get this guy. Okay. He was immediately like, yeah.

Now, Lieutenant Kozenczak actually had a son.

Robert's age who went to the same high school as Robert and he was like I just felt compelled and He was like, this is, he's like, I know you're not supposed to like put it in like personal terms, but I immediately felt like I had to find this kid.

Well, and it's like sometimes I feel like it's good to do that because it helps.

It's like you have a horse in the race. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's like it motivates you because you could put yourself in their parents shoes.

You know, I want to find this kid for those that family.

So, the lieutenant, he checks out the pharmacy, Neeson Pharmacy, where Robert was working and where he was abducted from. and he found out that the place had been recently renovated.

Now who did the renovation work, you ask?

John Wayne Gacy's squad. pdm contractors good um yeah and you know as we know that's john wayne gacy's company that he ran basically to abduct rape and murder young teenage boys.

So now he had that connection and he He finds out from witnesses that Gacy was indeed the guy who everyone saw chatting with Robert that evening.

And they said he was asking him about a contracting job.

He was telling him he could make a money like they had all people watch this whole conversation.

Now, remember, he told his mother he was seeing about a contracting job when he called her on the phone.

He was like, this guy is asking about that.

And so this was sloppy as fuck because he's left such a breadcrumb trail to what was going on.

People saw him talking to John Wayne Gacy.

They see him talking to John Wayne Gacy about a job.

He called his mother and told him, I talked to this guy named John about a job.

And then all of a sudden he goes missing.

I mean, thank God that this one went so horribly wrong.

Yeah, it was just sloppy as fuck on Casey's end.

And you can tell that he was getting very big for his britches being like, I can do this and no one's ever going to catch me. um so like i said robert was a really good kid never gave his parents any reason to believe he would run away they were just like no that doesn't make any sense so sad So Lieutenant Kozenczak felt like he was like, this is now my mission.

I'm going to do this. So he immediately had his detective searching through missing persons reports and he was like, find similar victims because now we're going to start piecing these together.

Because he was like, I think this guy did something.

So at 9 p.m., Lieutenant Kozenczak and three other detectives knocked on the door at Gacy's home. he answers the door and they're like hey we would like you to come down to the station for questioning So, Gacy is, like, annoyed, and they said he was just like, ugh, and he's like...

I have to wait at home for a super important call from my mother because my uncle passed away.

And so the detectives are like, yeah, you know what?

This is about a missing kid. Like, we really need you to come down.

This is really important. And they were like...

Can you either just wait, you know, take the call later or can you call your mother now and like get this over with so we can take you down?

So he's pissed. And then he accuses Lieutenant Kozenczak of having, quote, no respect for the dead. are you kidding this man who is standing in his home which contains the bodies of over 30 teenage boys rotting under his feet that he brutally tortured, raped, and murdered is standing there.

Telling this lieutenant you have no respect for the dead.

And if you picture this conversation like I am, it was probably at the front door, which is literally... right over one of the dead bodies exactly and guess what while they're having this conversation robert pice's body was upstairs in his attic Oh my god.

Yeah. So they agree. Finally, they're like, you know what?

Whatever. Wait for the call. But they were like, we want you to come in after the call.

Right. So we're going to be waiting for you to come down.

So at 11 p.m. that evening, John Wayne Gacy calls the police station back and he's like, do you still want me to come in for questioning?

And they're like, yeah. Get here immediately, you sloppy fuck.

So direct. I bet that's exactly what they said.

Get here immediately, you sloppy fuck. So he's like, all right, give me a half hour.

I just got to get ready. I'll come down.

So 1 a.m., he still hasn't shown up. So that's like two hours later.

It's like, what do you have to get ready for?

Like, just put on some pants and come on over.

They're like, what is he doing? Well, what he was doing was he was getting Robert's dead body from the attic driving it to the Des Plaines River and tossing it in.

On his way to the police station. Yeah. To go tell them that he didn't do anything.

Now that fucker doesn't show up until after 3 a.m.

And he's covered in mud. Like, covered. So the detectives weren't there at this point.

He was like, I want to talk to Lieutenant Kozenczak.

And they were like, he's not here and we're not calling him in because you're disgusting.

So they were like, no. Another direct quote.

Yeah. They were like, come back at the morning, you dumb asshole.

So he shows back up at 9.15 a.m. and it begins.

So he denies everything. He's like, no, I don't know anything about this kid.

I don't know anything. We talked about a job.

That was it. I left. He went home. That was it.

And they were like, yeah, that's not what happened.

But Lieutenant Kozenczak had ordered background checks, obviously. and Gacy's came back with all his fucking nonsense like the sodomy charges the assault charges all this shit So when he saw that he had served prison time for sodomy of a teenage boy, his antennas immediately went out.

And he's like, this dude is lying. Yeah.

Right. So Kozenczak went to Circuit Judge Marvin J. Peters and he was like, we need a search warrant for Gacy's house.

Oh my God. Can you imagine? Yeah. So this is when it gets crazy.

So investigators show up at the home. And they begin their search.

And while this is going on, Gacy's neighbor walks over because he's like, what the fuck is going on?

Because remember, he's the neighbors love him.

He's a weird guy, but he's a great guy. That's how they all feel.

Yeah. So they're like, what's going on at John's house?

So they walk up, the neighbor walks up to one of the police officers and is like, what the hell is happening?

And they're like, yeah, we can't reveal to you why we're searching the home, but we're just doing a search.

So the neighbor was like, just so you know, there's an attic and a crawl space in that house.

I don't know if you should know that, because they were like, it's hard to tell from the plans.

And they were like, I don't know what you're looking for, but there's two of those places.

Good hiding places. So the police were like, cool.

Yeah, so they're like, cool. So at first they didn't really take it that seriously because they're not looking for 30 plus dead bodies.

They're looking for Robert. Yeah. And that's all.

That's all they think is happening here.

They think they were looking for one kid.

I know. I'm actually glad you said that because in my mind, I'm like, they're looking for like blood splatter or something like that.

And then I'm like, oh, yeah, they're literally looking for a kid.

They're literally looking for this 15-year-old kid.

That's all they're looking for. So they ended up taking a ton of shit from the house.

And what they took was they took his 1979 Oldsmobile Delta 88. his work van for PDM, and his 1978 Chevy pickup that he also used for PDM.

Okay. So what they also found and I found a list from this book, The Man Who Killed Boys.

And I will list all these books again. I listed them in the first two parts, but I'll list them again in this show notes.

Cool. So what they took from the house was they found a piece of rug that had stains.

Now the rug didn't have stains on top. It was like they lifted the rug up and they could see someone had cleaned the top but it had leaked into the bottom.

Oh. So they took that section of rug. They took clothing, a pair of yellow underwear, color photos of drug stores, an address book, more than a dozen books including bike boy, pederasty, sex between men and boys,

21 abnormal sex cases. Tight teenagers. Ew.

Yep. The American Bicentennial Gay Guide.

And they also found seven porn films. a hypodermic needle and syringe, weed and rolling papers, bottles of pills, including Valium, a scale, a switchblade knife, a pistol, handcuffs and keys, nylon rope,

39-inch long 2x4 board with holes in it, the rack.

A temporary driver's license belonging to Michael B. Baker, one of the victims.

Oh, no. A main high school class ring with the initials JAS, which we find out who that belongs to later.

A driver's license issued to James O'Toole, another victim.

The coup de grace, the receipt from Neeson Pharmacy for the film from Robert's pocket.

So just like stuff in everybody's home. Yeah, so we all have switchblade knives and clothing from dead people.

Nylon rope. Just the casual necessities.

And a torture board, you know. It makes me so sad, too, that books like that even exist.

I know. Well, and it's like between grownups and teenagers.

Like, fuck. Yeah. Like sex between men and boys.

That's horrific. That's fucked up. if you wrote that like tight teenagers what the fuck like those and then that's not porn that's like a whole different thing yeah that's a whole that's pedophilia um and then and it's like and the list included like the american bicentennial gay guide which i was like that's like a normal book But it's like, but it's just it's attributed to him because of the whole like enigma of him saying being very like put off. by being called gay right also saying he's bisexual but also saying he's straight at times it's just a very odd thing So they also found hair in his vehicles and a cadaver dog was used and hit on the Oldsmobile after it was given Robert's clothing to use as a scent.

Oh, wow. So that indicates that he was in there.

They asked Robert's mother about the pharmacy receipt that they found and she said it was likely his girlfriend's.

Okay. So they contacted her. Her name was Kim Bowers.

And she said it was hers. Because she said Robert had given her his jacket when she was cold a few days before his abduction.

The purest. Right? That, like, hurts my heart.

Yeah. And she told police the serial numbers on the receipt and they matched.

So they were like, OK, that checks out. Now it was time to talk to literally everyone Gacy knew.

So they talked to all his friends. all his family, all his coworkers, his neighbors, most of them had nothing but nice things to say about him that he was kind of a weird guy kind of like an over-the-top guy but in general they were all like yeah we like him he's cool He's a hard worker, all that.

So they also, Lieutenant Kozenczak also ordered 24-7 surveillance on Gacy now. which is very necessary oh yeah so now cops are following him everywhere And they're blatantly just sitting in his driveway in cop cars, like just watching him.

I love it. I love it. And he was telling friends that he was being harassed and shit.

And it was all like a misunderstanding. He was telling them, you know, this is going to blow over.

They're just trying to pin something on me.

No, it's not, buddy boy. Some of them believed him.

Some of them were like, yeah, this is crazy.

You're being harassed. So at this point, Robert's friends and family are really searching for him as well.

They were handing out flyers, asking around.

And remember, Like we said in the beginning, he made the mistake of abducting a kid that had a lot of friends and family support around him.

So they were going hardcore. Helicopters were overhead searching forests and like the riverbanks.

They were on it. Meanwhile, as this is going on, Gacy is unreal because he has hired defense attorney Sam, I think it's Amirante. and he decided to file a $750,000 civil lawsuit against the city of Des Plaines because he said they were causing him mental anguish and loss of reputation in the community. deprivation of his liberties and loss of his personal property because they were taking things out of his house.

And he thought... He thought he was going to get out of this spot free.

Oh, yeah. He thought he was not only getting out of it, but he was going to get out of it with money from the lawsuit.

Right. And again, he really just goes to show what's working upstairs.

Oh, yeah. And he and again, he's claiming that he's being harassed and abused.

And he said his one of the things in the lawsuit was he wanted the surveillance in the investigation to cease immediately.

The whole thing. He wanted it stopped. Oh, of course he did because he was like, shit, shit, shit.

And it's like, what an egotistical slice of shit.

Like you really think that you can sit here and call the shots after you fucking murdered like 30 something kids?

So Gacy starts fucking with the cops that are tailing him.

So what is he doing? He'll drive aimlessly to make them follow him just like all over the place with no purpose at all.

He probably thought that was so funny too.

Oh yeah. And he does it at all times of night and he's just being a dick.

He also will just stand there and take photos of them.

And he'll like walk up to them and say weird shit like like he'll just and he'll say very incriminating things but like do it in a jovial way because he knows they can't nail him on it like they'll say something about like a clown and i think i say it at the end but like his he says something like well clowns can get away with murder

And like, what the fuck? Actually, you can't.

Yeah. And then he invites them in a lot.

He'll be like, yeah, you want to come in and have a sandwich?

Like, he's just a dick. And so one morning he invited Detective Robert Schultz and his partner in for breakfast.

And the two guys were like, you know what?

We'll come in because we want to see what's going on.

And they're like, sure, we'll come into your house.

And Robert Schultz used the bathroom and he said it was freezing outside because it was wintertime.

And he says, so the heat kicked on. And he said, I'd already smelled in there.

But he goes, when that heat kicked on, it blasted into that bathroom.

The unmistakable smell of rotting flesh.

Because Robert, Detective Schultz was like, I've been to a morgue.

I've smelled a rotting body several times.

Right. That is an unmistakable smell. And that's what I smelled.

And for him to just invite them in and be like, yeah, it's fine.

Like, he knows that his place smells like death.

Oh, it's over the top. Like over the top, just like, it's unbelievable.

It really is. It's hubris of like the highest order.

It's just like something in his brain was like, you can do anything you want to do and you will get away with it.

And then you also wonder like, did a part of him want to get caught?

I was just going to say that. I was literally about to say that.

Because he really is a conundrum. Because you're asking to get caught at that point.

You really are. And I wonder if he was like, I don't know.

I wonder if it's like he was in over his head or he was getting tired of the lifestyle he was living.

I don't know. Probably not. But I think that's just like the sane part of our brains.

I know. I think so. And I wonder if it's like a subconscious part of him.

Because I feel like that happens a lot with serial killers is like a subconscious part where they don't even know it's active, wants this to end because it's like the human part.

I was going to say it's like the tiny little human sliver that's left in them.

Exactly. It's like that hairline of just humanity in there somewhere.

So on the evening of December 21st, in the middle of the night, Gacy drove to his attorney's office, Sam Amirante.

And the police officers followed him. They were like, what the fuck is he doing?

So officers Mike Albright and Dave Hackmeister followed him.

And they parked outside the office like they always do.

But they thought this was weird. They were like, why is he suddenly driving to his lawyers?

And while they were parked. Gacy like staggered into the office and just started confessing. to his lawyer like just started like spouting and he was clearly drunk they said i was i was gonna um And so Sam Amirante comes out and he says he walked up to the officers and he didn't know what to do.

And he said he told them, don't let Gacy leave, block his car in, do anything you can to stop him from leaving if he tries.

His lawyer? But he was like, I'm not going to tell you what he just said to me, but you need to keep him here.

Don't let him just run. So he did end up leaving.

He did end up getting in his car, but they didn't let him just leave.

They followed him, obviously. I was like, what?

But they were like, we can't just we can't do that.

Like, we can't just arrest him because you tell me that you want him to not leave.

Like, we can't do that. You could fuck up like the whole thing.

Exactly. Like that would fuck us up. We could lose all of this.

So they were like, all right, we just have to keep tailing them like we're doing.

So he ended up going to a service station and right in front of them sells pot to a kid right in front of them at the service station.

Maybe he is asking to get caught, actually.

Maybe I take this back. So they were like, okay.

So they're like, well, we're not going to bust him on that. because we need to see what else he does.

We're not just going to stop this because he sold some weed.

We need to get him on something else. So he leads them back to his house and he just goes in the house, gets his dog and brings his dog to the neighbor's house where... where he tells them that he needs help taking care of the dog because he needs to figure out this whole thing.

And he says, you know, it's a big misunderstanding.

I'm being pinned for something. But my dog doesn't like being alone that much and I keep having to leave him.

So can you please take care of him while I'm doing this?

Also to back up, it's always so weird when serial killers, because like I can't think of another instance, but like with animals sometimes they're so caring.

Yeah. Yeah, it's very odd. It's like that's so weird that he was like, my dog.

He doesn't like to be alone. yeah exactly like or that he had a dog at all it's like because a dog requires a lot of care Yeah.

And I guess the neighbor was like, yeah, sure, John.

Like, of course we will. Because again. Right.

Everybody loves John. We're not like, of course we're going to help you.

You're being railroaded, my brother. It's like, they're all just like, sure.

So the next morning, Gacy showed up at his friend.

The last name is Zarna, I think. Zarna's.

That's his neighbor's. Okay. And he said, I've been a bad boy.

Ew, gross. No. And he's looking like shit.

He's, like, haggard as fuck. So his friend is like, I...

Like, it was clear something was going on and he was clearly at a breaking point.

So he was like, what do you mean you've been a bad boy?

And he's like, so he gives him a scotch.

He like slaps him across the face. Yeah.

And he's like, you gotta, he's like, sit down on my couch.

Tell me what the fuck you're talking about.

So his answer is the end is near. And he's like, cool, cool, cool.

And they're like, so what's going on? Like, what do you mean?

What are you saying? And he's like, all right, the trend.

Yeah, he's like, they're trying to pin a murder on me.

And he's like, you know, it's all bullshit.

So his friend starts like pressing a little bit and John gets frustrated.

And he gets up and walks outside. So he's like leaving.

So he's like, all right, bye. And the friend said as he was walking out, he said to him, i thought you wanted to tell me something because that's like he's like i thought you were here to tell me something john and then he turns back around walks back inside walks right up to his friend and says, I killed 30 people, give or take a few.

Like, just right out with it. How do you even respond to that?

So, Zarna's like... Okay, who are these people that you killed?

And he goes, bad people. blackmailing me they were lady goes they were gonna blackmail me they were bad people that's what he said wrong not true and then he started to cry So I'd be like, well, that's all for today, John.

I think you need to leave. You gotta dip right out of this house.

You gotta go. you gotta go you're actually not welcome anymore yeah so so 10 55 a.m he leaves his friend's house because Because now he's just, like, shell-shocked.

Like, what do I do with this? And Gacy goes to Michael Rossi and David Cram's homes.

Those are the two guys, the teenagers that lived with him at one point that dug trenches for him and like spread lime for him at times yeah um So he tells Rossi now the police are following them all the time.

So they have like they're listening to him.

And he says to, so he says to Rossi, I'm glad you could make it.

Come inside. This is the last time you'll ever see me.

So the police are already like, okay, what's happening?

So they talk inside. And they all end up coming out of the house, getting into a car.

This is around 1130 a.m., And before they leave, Gacy walks up to Officer Schultz in his car and said, you know, David Cram is going to drive me to a restaurant.

But he's like, you know, is that cool? Can he drive me there?

Like, are you guys cool with that? And the officers are like, yeah, we don't give a shit.

So they're like, cool, we're going to follow you though.

So they follow them. And David Cram, once they get to the restaurant, gets out. walks up to the police car and is like, hey, John wants to go to the cemetery to say goodbye to his father.

So Officer Scholz is like, Dude, he admitted to killing like over 30 people like like we're pretty sure he murdered a lot of people or he's at least saying he did like that's crazy he's probably gonna kill himself like they were like i'm guessing this is what's happening They're like, you might want to get out of this situation right now because this is going to get bad.

You might not want to drive him there. Yeah.

And so it's like, so Cram's like, oh, okay, cool, cool, cool.

So he's like, I'm going to drive him anyway.

So he gets in the car with him. He's going to be a good friend. friend yeah he's like you know what it'll probably be fine we're just gonna go to the cemetery so he gets in the car with him He drives out of the parking lot and immediately he is pulled over by the Des Plaines Police Department. the Cook County Sheriff's Department, and the Illinois State Department of Law Enforcement Division of Criminal Investigations.

Good. I'm glad. Because while all this had happened, his neighbor there had called the police and been like, he just told me he killed 30 people.

And they had also been informed about that drug sale that he did the like pot sale that he did right in front of the officers because now that they started having like him admitting to this him acting like this they were like You know what?

We can arrest him on that charge, like the selling weed in front of us charge.

Let's just do it so we can get him. Right.

So they get him. He's arrested. So he gets arrested for the pot charge.

They don't have any body yet. So they're just sitting here just grasping at what they can.

So he was held on $1,000 bail. for possession of a controlled substance because he had the Valium.

And he was then... And he was also held on that, like, the pot.

So... While he's held there? The pot. He's held on the pot.

He is held on the devil's lettuce. He is held on the wacky tabacky.

So the police are like... You're like, that's enough.

You are being held here for smoking the reefer.

So while he's held there, they go back to his house.

And they told Gacy when they're going back, they're like, yo, we're going to rip up your floors because we're fairly certain.

And he's like, well... Yeah, they're like, we're looking for Robert Peist.

We're gonna rip up your fucking floors. So...

He got nervous, obviously, because John Wayne Gacy knows what's under his floors.

So he's like, okay, yeah, you don't have to do that.

Because you know what? I'm just going to come clean with you.

I did kill a man once, but it was in self-defense.

And he's not under my floors. He's buried in the garage.

So they were like, so you don't, he was like, so you don't have to rip up my floors.

It's cool. Don't worry about it. Take my word for it.

He's like, I'll totally bring you to the part in the garage and you can dig it right up and this can all be over.

And we can just... And I'll get off on self-defense.

It's totally cool. Yeah, totally fine. So they were like, cool. uh we'll dig this out like we're definitely gonna dig this up but they were like we're also gonna look in your crawl space He was like, ah.

So at 10 p.m., they got the medical examiner, Dr. Robert Stein, on the scene.

Imagine also doing this at 10 p.m. Yeah, and they called Robert Stein, like, the medical examiner, and he's like, cool. sure i'll get out of bed and come look at this because they and remember right now they think they are looking for a body One body.

Singular. They think at least one. So...

Dr. Stein actually aided in the scene at Jonestown.

So he was like a big deal, this medical examiner.

That's what he was legit. So Dr. Stein got all gowned up and they were because they were like, you're going to have to go into a crawl space.

So. get your medical examiner bros, get some gowns, and get over here, because we're going to send you under a fucking smelly house.

And he was like, cool, cool. He was like, great, I just hate you.

He was like, super glad I chose this profession.

So he got all gowned up. He went into the crawl space when he got there with like his aids that he brought. uh immediately they noticed there is some bones that they believed belonged to one human being so they were like cool we found the human But they were also like, that is a very old body, like there is not flesh attached to this body.

So they were like, that's not Robert. So everything else was buried.

Everybody else was buried. But they were obviously getting suspicious because under there they said the smell was...

I mean, they said... I can't imagine. They were like, this did not... This smell did not belong to one body.

It did not belong to two bodies and it certainly didn't belong to a skeletal body.

So they were like, What's happening? Because you think of how bad... I mean, I don't know, but you know how bad one singular body smells.

Now... Take that smell and multiply it by 33.

Yes. That's insane. In an enclosed hot crawl space.

That already smells like moldy and gross.

It's just the worst of the worst. So they decide, you know what, we're going to further do this dig in the daylight because we need to be able to see.

Well, like this, this tiny bones like we don't know what we're getting into here.

So that same evening, while this is all going on, Gacy confessed to police that he killed 30-something teenage boys.

He was like, you know what, here it is. He was like, while I'm here.

He tells them. Yeah. He's like, you know what?

Since you're looking in the crawl space, let me just let you in on a little secret.

There's some shit down there. And let me tell you.

So he told them, he says, I raped them. He said he told them about the rope and the handcuff tricks.

He told them about the rack, and he said he often murdered them by getting behind them and throttling them with a rope or a board.

He said he buried them in the crawl space and then he said he dumped at least five in the Des Plaines River because of spatial issues.

So he said Robert Peist was among those who would be found in the river.

So he was like, he's not in the crawl space.

He then told them that, again, this is when they found out that while Lieutenant Kozenczak was at his home on December 12th asking him to come down to the police department that Robert Peist was in the attic.

So that must have been a gut punch. So this was all sounding insane.

Because even at this point, though, like, he might just be crazy.

Like, he might just be throwing this shit out to, like, I don't know.

To fuck with us. Yeah. I don't even know.

But then they're like, then they find out that a tow truck driver named Bob Kirkpatrick had shown up at the bridge near the Des Plaines River on December 12th. when he was going in to be questioned by the police, he showed up around 2 a.m.,

Because he had to get John Wayne Gacy's truck out of the mud and the snow.

Because it got stuck on that bridge near the Death's Plains River.

So now they have somebody, a tow truck driver that's confirming the night he was coming in for questioning when he didn't show up until 3 a.m. when he was covered in mud.

He was out on the fucking bridge over the Des Plaines River covered in mud.

So they're like, he did do it. Like, this is all being confirmed.

Now, that afternoon, he was officially charged with the murder of Robert Peist.

But they don't have a body. So they're holding him on this.

They don't have it yet. Now, he kept confessing.

And he's, I mean, he's, like, letting it all go.

It was rambling and crazy. But he is giving times and dates.

Like, he's giving... But he's very crazy that you can remember like the specific dates and like the times, you know what I mean?

Seriously, because I don't remember dates or times for anything.

Me either. So it's fascinating to me that he can do this.

But... He is hazy on names because he just didn't really care about their names.

Well, in some of them, he probably didn't even know their names.

Yeah. And he said, and they were like, why did you do this?

And he's like, I killed them to keep them quiet.

Like they were going to tell what I did.

So that's why I did it. And then he also admitted, you know, watching them die makes me sparky big time.

So... So he then drew a map and a diagram of his property, and he said, this is where you're going to find all of them.

And he did a very accurate map. So they search, they find more of the sex toys, like the dildos that he used.

They find the mirrors on the ceiling in the garage.

They find the red light, the porn. I can't imagine walking into all of that.

It must have just been a lot to take in.

Also, can you imagine the therapy you would need after that?

Oh yeah, because this was a really bad scene.

I understand you're a first responder and you've dealt with stuff of the like, but really not of the like.

Oh yeah, I couldn't imagine. And this is an assault on all of your senses because you're like...

You're being assaulted on every level by just the, I mean, it's reeking of death.

You're walking through just like thick air of death there.

Mm-hmm. And so they also find out that he had soundproofed and insulated his garage.

So this ended up being like an archaeologist dig.

They were slowly getting pieces of bones, hair...

Just all kinds of shit. Investigators called in Professor Charles Warren, who is a forensic anthropologist at the University of Illinois. and Dr. Edward J. Pavlik, a forensic odontologist.

Okay. So they were both like leaders in their fields and they were there for identification purposes because they were like, We got a lot of bones and we don't know how many people there are and we don't know who they are.

So Warren, Professor Warren found bits of forensic evidence like hair and clothing small pieces of bone and, you know, jaws and everything that they could use for blood typing and identification.

And then Pavlik could work with dental offices and any jawbones to search for dental records to aid in identification.

So that's what they were trying to do at this point.

Now, like we said the scene was horrific, absolutely horrific.

The smell was unbelievable. And because they had rotted in an enclosed space together for so long, all these bodies, the toxic gases being released from their decomposition it was co-mingling with each other in this closed, dark space, like moist space.

And it became dangerous. I mean, the gases that can be released from there are dangerous and noxious. uh so they had to wear full hazmat gear neighbors and witnesses on scene said they often would see someone staggering away from the home in full gear pull off their protective face stuff and just vomit all over the lawn or just be sitting there gagging and like gasping for air. of course like it was like it was just hell it was a hell and you're in full hazmat and you're still experiencing a reaction like that Oh yeah, and like walking outside just to throw up because it's so bad.

Now, when the news broke, it went crazy and families all around the area who had missing teenage boys were sitting there now waiting to see if their son died. was one of the bodies that was being excavated out of this house.

So the news released a bit of the findings, like the high school ring. which had the JAS initials on it.

Well, that ended up being John... I can never say this name properly and I feel bad.

John Seeks. That's what it is. Seeks. John Seeks initials engraved on it.

Okay. His parents were watching when they brought the ring up and said, this has those initials.

And they were devastated. Yeah, because they were like, that's his ring.

And then they had held out hope at this point.

And they were like, that's when I knew like he's one of those under there.

Which I can't imagine being like, my child is rotting underneath this pig's home and we just have to wait.

Because it's not even like he was murdered.

That's one step to get past. You could never get past that, but that's one thing to have to handle.

But to deal with. Yeah. And then to also deal with the fact that he's like you said been under this pig's house.

I can't. Yeah, just like rotting like a piece of trash under this fucking pig's home while he just lives on top of him.

That's a whole nother like 10 steps of grief.

Oh, it's unbelievable. The picture started to become worse and worse for investigators.

And the scene at Gacy's home was compared to identifying victims from a massive airline airline crash they said yeah because it was just fucking pandemonium and there were so many of them So there were also finding bodies stacked closely together in their graves and investigators were beginning to see that some of these boys were killed, like we said, in part one or two on the same day or within days.

Right. and so they and he had called the times when he killed two in one day a double event he would call it that like that was my double event That's like what Dennis Rader would say.

I'm surprised Dennis Rader- It really is.

Fucking Dennis. So- They also began to notice that Gacy's DIY map that he drew for them was very accurate, like he remembered where everything was.

And they also said that he had arranged the bodies where it looked like the spokes of a wheel.

Like, it looked like they were arranged in a way like they were spokes coming out, like, to a wheel.

Did he ever, like, say that there was a purpose behind that?

He never said there was a purpose behind that.

But people on, like, the investigators and professionals on scene, like the medical examiner and stuff, were like, this looks very, like, a very, um...

Methodical? I can't think of the word. Yeah, like methodical and just very purposeful.

Like this was done with purpose. So they set out identifying more and they're laying bones and bodies along 30 something tables in a makeshift morgue that was set up.

They had several forensic pathologists helping out Dr. Stein.

They put together that Gacy tended to like victims to be young teenage boys who on the thinner side um like thinner belts not like bigger um and then he liked light-haired caucasian teenage boys okay So they all did share a similar look.

Now, before the Christmas break that year, because this is right around Christmas, They got five bodies out of his home and one was attributed to him from the Des Plaines River.

So by two days after Christmas, they removed 10 more bodies. six were removed the next day and on december 28th my birthday six more bodies were taken out so happy birthday 28 bodies were now confirmed to be his murders, and he was at this point officially the most prolific serial killer in U.S. history. just by this point bananas and they hadn't even found them all yet he was already right way past.

So that same day they added another one when James Mazzara was pulled out of the Des Plaines River with his underwear still jammed on his throat that's horrific yeah that always like stresses me out so remember this is a residential leave it to beaver neighborhood And so neighbors and looky loos are just gathering every day to watch dozens of dead bodies being removed from this home.

And you could see footage. I mean, it's like horrific.

It's just people bringing out like giant body bags.

And it's clear bodies are just being taken out of the house.

I wouldn't even want to live... First of all, I can't imagine living next door or across the street or any neighbor.

I wouldn't even want to live... down the street or on a separate street near that.

And I guess a lot of them started feeling, like, really shameful of, like, living near him because they were like, we should have known.

Like, why didn't we see anything? It's not your fault, but...

You can understand why you would feel that way.

Yeah. Like you would feel like maybe I should have thought.

Yeah, I would. I would wonder why didn't I see anything?

Am I that not, like, am I really not observant like that?

But it's not your fault. I would move the fuck out of Chicago.

This whole thing was a circus. It was craziness.

News cameras were everywhere. There were people starting to harass the neighbors.

And that's when people started going into other neighbors' yards and being like, you must have seen something, you must have known, shame on you for not saying something.

And like we all know, Like in Dennis Rader's case, his whole fucking family didn't know.

I mean, it's very possible that they hide well.

So according to The Man Who Killed Boys by Clifford Leyendecker, One neighbor said they watched late one night as news crews with huge floodlights uh like filming sheriffs taking things out of the house and one one uh sheriff's employee was taking a body bag out of the or two of them were taking a body bag out of the home and the news people yelled go back we're not ready yet And they went back in the house with the body bag and then came back out to be filmed.

I'd be like, go fuck yourself. No. Like, this is not a news circus.

This is somebody. This is somebody. Yeah, like, this is not a fucking show.

This is life. Like, this is someone's child that we're placing out here.

Go fuck yourself. Fuck you. So now Gacy already had Sam Amirante on his defense team.

And he added Robert Mata. And then on the prosecution side, Chief Deputy State's Attorney William Kunkel. and Assistant State's Attorneys Robert R. Egan and Terry Sullivan went on board.

So Gacy was indicted on seven counts for the Robert Peist case.

He was indicted on counts of kidnapping, sexual assault, indecency to a child and murder.

And again, the body of Robert had not been found yet.

Gacy claimed he threw the boy over the bridge, like we said.

But they were doing searches. They just weren't finding him.

And now they were getting concerned that Gacy was... lying and that maybe he buried him somewhere because they were like he was covered up in mud when he came to the police station that night he didn't just like toss him over Exactly.

And when they looked at the place where he got caught in the snow, they were like, it wasn't really muddy there.

Like, why was he covered in mud? So they couldn't figure out, you know, any of that.

But they were like, you know what, we're going to have to we're just going to have to keep looking.

So they were doing like searches in the nearby forests near the Des Plaines River because they were like, maybe he buried them in there.

So January 4th, there was a huge service at a local church just to mourn the loss of the missing boys.

And it was for anyone to come. So like over 300 friends, victims, families, residents, members of the community, uh, church clergy, they all came to just have, you know, play their respects.

January 8th, seven more indictments for murder.

Came down on Gacy for Butkovich, Godzik, Seek, Johnston, Langdegan, and Mazzara. uh the prosecution decided they were going for the death penalty at this point yeah Now they demolished his home on April 10th, 1979.

They ended up giving pieces of it to people who asked for souvenirs.

Like while they were demolishing it and taking it away.

If you asked for a brick or like a piece of it, they would be like, here you go.

I would not want anything attached to that brick or dirt or branch or anything.

Yeah, I mean, it's really it's one of those.

It's like a very morbid curiosity thing to me where I feel very torn on those things, which I understand it like I could see why.

I could see why you would want it, but not me.

Yeah, it's between, like, respecting victims and their families, which I'm like, you don't want a piece of that because that's a piece of... this heinous thing that happened to this family and then on the other side is this weird morbid curiosity I have.

I'm always very torn with that. But I think it's good to err on the side of respecting victims' families, personally.

Yeah. I think there's certain things that are, like, okay for, like, morbid curiosity to take, but, like, other things, it's like, maybe sit that one down.

Yeah. It's a hard... Yeah, that's a hard line to rock.

So... He couldn't even show up for his hearing initially because security was such an issue.

They were worried someone was going to murder him.

They should have just let it happen. And he was only going to have to travel 20 miles.

And they were like, we don't think we can protect him for that long.

Like, literally, that's how bad it was. And so he was housed at...

Kermak or Cermak, I'm sure somebody will tell me, hospital under 24-7 guard watch.

And he was actually the first inmate to receive that kind of security.

He collected newspaper clippings of himself while there and kept them in a folder.

Weird. He also found religion. He had Bibles.

He said he prayed. Nothing will save you, sir.

No. I also found out that he was diagnosed with angina pectoris, which is what the heart condition is that makes him like faint and get... because I was trying to find that out last time and I couldn't find it.

Finally found it. It's too bad it like never did the full job.

It didn't do the job. I know. So in April, there was a huge windstorm in Chicago and like fucked up a lot of stuff. uh people like died i believe two people died in the windstorm it was like that wow Well, the wind may also have had a hand in dislodging something from the water.

So a body was discovered the day after above the locks of the Dresden Dam in the Illinois River.

So a crane operator had seen the body just laying there and they called the they called the lockmaster. dan callahan and he called police and they identified the body of that of robert peist So the wind had dislodged his body from the water.

Wherever he was, he must have been caught somewhere near the shore and had like thrown him somewhere.

Like out in the open, which I'm like, wow, that's like some spiritual shit.

I'm not like a very religious person, but I feel like there's something that works together to make shit like this. there's some magic happening there that was like mother nature doing her job i think you can't deny that yeah So his family immediately, I mean, that must have been because they're always going to hold out hope. even though it looks like you know I'm sure they were probably sitting there trying to reserve themselves to the idea that John Wayne Gacy likely killed their son, but you're always going to hold that little shred of hope.

Of course. Once they found his body, they were like, all right, we want to we want to do something to honor him.

So his family immediately founded the Robert J. Peist Foundation to, quote, recognize and support those individuals and organizations or activities that committed to helping reduce crimes against children.

That's awesome. I love when families do shit like that.

They're like, I'm going to make... you know, I'm going to make lemonade out of lemons.

Well, to have the strength to do that in such a awful awful terrible situation yeah to make something positive yeah to make something positive out of a really really negative situation So January 10th, he entered a not guilty plea, LOL.

That's Annie's birthday. Happy birthday.

There you go. And this is 79, by the way.

They also tried to get him released on Bond.

And obviously that was rejected. Yeah, the judge was like, no.

Why even try? Don't waste your time. These defense attorneys, I realize they're doing their job.

I understand that. But Knowing what you know, it's really frustrating to hear them try to get this guy freedom.

It's like, no, he needs to be behind bars.

They also wanted to try the insanity defense, of course.

You would hope that he was insane. Yeah, which I think I said that in the first part.

Yeah, you did. And it's it doesn't look like he was.

So he was. Dr. Robert A. Reifman, who is the director of the Psychiatric Institute of the Circuit Court of Cook County. he said the defendant was mentally fit to stand trial so his lawyer claimed um his lawyer sam ann marante was like Well, he, you know, he drifts in and out of different personalities while we're talking and, like, he blames this personality named Jack for the murders and...

He says that Jack's the one who did all this.

Like, I think he has multiple personalities.

Like, he's sick. I think he just knew what he was doing.

Yeah, and they were like, yeah, no, that ends up falling apart later.

So during trial, he was happy as a fucking clam. like totally happy just sitting there like whatever like didn't give a shit weird the only time he ever even like flinched was when they mentioned that they were going for the death penalty and he looked like oh fuck like that's the only time that he looked like startled It became real.

But at one point he would like turn around while they were doing jury selection and just like look at the crowd behind him. and just smile at people.

And he actually tried to hit on a woman sketch artist who was there doing sketches for her.

He started trying to hit on her. what she was like no thank you sir she's like i'm actually busy for the rest of my life it's so yeah absolutely Like, I'm actually leaving the planet, so sorry.

So the prosecution went hard. and went into gruesome detail about the murders.

Like, they were like, we are gonna show you that this is a fucking evil man.

Like, I'm sorry, but you're gonna hear some shit.

So they wanted to show woof and they wanted to show like the callousness of John Wayne Gacy.

That's what they really wanted to show. This at one point they said, like, because one of the workers at the home was like, if the devil is alive, he lived here.

Like they were literally like, this man is the fucking devil.

Um, so apparently Gacy had bragged and they brought this up in trial. that when Greg Godzik was working for him before he murdered him, he said, funny, the kid unknowingly dug his own grave one day.

That's not funny at all. Isn't that the most fucked up shit you can think of?

I mean, that's fucked up. He had this kid dig a trench in the crawl space and he told him he was doing it so he can move pipes into there.

That ended up being where he buried him.

That's some twisted fucked up sadistic shit.

That's so beyond. That's so beyond. And the victim's families all got up on the stand.

They gave like harrowing testimonies. um talking about like you know that they were walking on the streets trying to find their missing children that like you know you just giving all those victim impact statements that you need Des Plaines Police Detective David Hackmeister recalled that a few days before they arrested Gacy,

They said he walked up to some of the people that were the officers that were survey like doing the surveillance on him.

And this is when I mentioned this earlier.

He said he or I think they were talking about Pogo the clown.

Like the officers were like, so you're a fucking clown.

And he was like, oh, yeah, they're talking about it.

And he goes, you know, clowns can get away with murder.

And he said it right to them. The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.

But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.

The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.

His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.

Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.

I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.

As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.

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You didn't think that was going to come back to haunt you later?

And that got brought up, of course. In fact, they also were talking about how clowns, professional clowns in that area were losing work. when this all came out because parents didn't want clowns around their kids because they were like, what the fuck?

Which I feel bad for, like, professional clowns of that era because they're like we're not all fucking brutal like we actually just want to spread joy to your children we literally just want to make your kids happy it's like that's right but i get it If I was a parent, I'd be the same way.

But I'm like, wow, poor clowns. So catch 22.

Yeah. So Dr. Thomas Alessio, who is a clinical psychologist from Rockford. said that Gacy was very bright, very intelligent.

And he said that he would probably rank among the top 10% of the population in intelligence.

Which is interesting. And he also said that he said he thought he was borderline schizophrenic.

He wasn't gonna diagnose him as schizophrenic, but he said he was borderline.

He said, quote, he was a person who on the surface looks normal, but has all kinds of neurotic, antisocial, psychotic illnesses.

I don't agree with that. I was just going to ask you that.

A lot of people don't. A lot of other clinical psychologists don't.

They also... Because they brought a ton of doctors and clinical psychologists because they were really trying... to get that insanity defense so they brought in dr richard rapaport who was um a psychiatrist and a professional witness for like this kind of thing.

And he had been he had sat in for 65 hours of interviews with John Wayne Gacy and And he said after all that, he said he is not psychologically ill.

And he said there is no evidence of brain disorder or disease.

He's just a fucking evil guy. That's terrifying.

So they brought in Dr. Leonard L. Heston, who's a professor of psychiatry.

And he actually had examined Gacy during his sodomy conviction.

So they brought him back for this. And he agreed.

Not cool, but like, wow. But he was like, I've seen this guy before.

I know what he's capable of. And then he was like, He's sane as fuck.

He's just evil. It was like redemption for him to be like, Jesus Christ, please listen to me this time.

I said it earlier. I say it again. Right.

And then they brought who we discussed in part two, I believe, Robert Donnelly. who was the 21-year-old who Gacy, let me remind you, and by the way, trigger warning, this is real bad, Gacy brutally raped him, tortured him.

I mean, this kid took the stand and had to describe that he was beaten.

He was assaulted. He was raped to the point of unconsciousness several times.

Gacy played Russian roulette with him. Oh, my God.

Is he the one that threw up on the stand?

No, that's Jeffrey Rignall. Oh, okay. They bring him back up.

But... And they use that he used an array of different sized dildos on this poor man.

Gacy held his head underwater in a bathtub until he passed out. finally dropped him off in an alley after all of this and told him not to go to the police because he was like, you won't be believed anyway. and that happened and he went to the police and he wasn't believed so cool um And while he was on the stand, he broke down, like, several times, and then he started to scream, this is hell, this is hell.

Like, he literally was... And when you see the physical reactions that are happening from his survivors, you're like, What is that house?

Like that house, what happened in that house must be beyond what any of us can conjure up.

No. Because this poor kid is literally like this 21 year old kid, like normal adjusted kid. after what happened in that house is sitting there screaming and sobbing and saying this is hell this is hell It's your absolute worst nightmare times a million, I would assume.

It truly is. And this is when they brought Jeffrey Rignall. onto the stand and he told his tale about being raped.

And he's the one who said that somebody else was in the room, he believed.

Oh, I was going to ask you that. I didn't know if it was the boy that testified before.

Yeah, this is... and he's the one who said I mean he had the same kind of stuff done to him he was put in the rack um And when he was on the stand during this, this is the guy who ended up throwing up on the stand and they had to recess the jury.

They literally had to, like, carry him out because he was, like, absolutely falling apart.

That's awful. Yeah. So then they brought Dr. Arthur Hartman, who is the chief psychologist of the Psychiatric Institute of the Cook County Circuit Court.

He went on the stand and he was like, you know what?

I think that John Wayne Gacy totally understands that his actions are wrong. he totally understands what he's doing he is sane but he goes i think he is psychotic and i think he's sexually deviant yeah so he said clearly And he was saying basically he has a personality disorder.

He does not have a psychological illness.

Like those are two very different things.

And he said no one's because they were trying to argue.

The defense was trying to say he had psychotic breaks. temporary insanity every time he killed someone.

That's basically what they were trying to argue.

That's very convenient to happen 33 times.

Well, this guy was like, no one suffers from 33 moments of temporary insanity to this level.

Like, no one does that. So he said he also said I sat with him.

He did the fucking multiple personality thing with me.

It's fake as fuck. Like he was like, I can spot that a mile away.

And he was like, well, people don't understand.

Well, he was like, what people don't understand is they think that they know what multiple personality disorder is, so they think they should just fade into different personalities.

And now we're going to be like, whoa, you really have it.

Right. And he's like, but what people don't understand is that people who legitimately suffer from multiple personalities... they don't remember the events when another personality takes over.

So they would be like, oh, that was Jack.

I don't know what Jack did. Because I'm not Jack.

I'm John. And I don't recognize who that person is.

But when John Wayne Gacy is telling everybody, well, Jack did this, he's going, well, then Jack took the garage and he did this and then Jack raped this boy and Jack did this and he's like, well, that's all well and fine.

But you wouldn't know what Jack did. Because if Jack took over control of your body and your mind, you're not you.

So why would John know what Jack did? He wasn't there.

He's like, you can call yourself Jack, but...

We're still John. Well, and that's I think the jury was like, oh, shit.

I think that's when it made it very clear.

Like, it's very easy to fake. multiple personality disorder but it's very easy to spot when you are trained for it and he was basically being like he should have read more about it because he did the classic fuck up with it he's like basically all around this guy sucks basically he's a fucking idiot even though he's really smart but that's and a fraud um so So the jury went for deliberations for two hours.

Only two hours. It took that long. For a murder conviction, though, of this magnitude, two hours is not a long time.

They came back and found him guilty. And when he was let out of the courtroom, he smirked and winked at the deputy sheriff. as he was let out after being charged with after being convicted of 33 murders yeah he just doesn't give a shit also they were thinking initially of trying to do separate trials for each victim but they were like it's gonna cost a shit ton and we just want to get and i think the victim's families were like i just want him we just wanted us over with Yeah, we don't want to sit through all this.

Now, during sentencing, Kunkel for the prosecution said, quote, that John Wayne Gacy was, quote, competent. he was a skillful torturer and a murderer and then he said quote if you allow this evil man to walk this earth then god help us all because he was telling yeah he was saying vote do the death penalty right um and then he said quote If this is not an appropriate case for the death penalty, then there is no death penalty in Illinois.

This is a case that cries out, not only for the voices of 33 dead, but the voices of 33 families.

But yes, the voices of every single citizen of the state.

And that voice says, John Gacy, enough. Enough.

So they had two more hours of deliberation, under two hours of deliberation for the sentencing.

Came back, death penalty for John Wayne Gacy.

Good. Now he went to prison. He seemed to be fine in prison.

He painted a lot. There's a lot of John Wayne Gacy art floating around in the world right now.

He painted clowns, right? He did paint clowns.

He would paint a lot of like self-portraits. of himself outside of clown makeup and also as pogo he also did a lot of weird disney like paintings like the seven dwarves and like that's like ed kemper reading like children's books It's very strange.

Yeah. And, you know, I think like two business guys bought a bunch of his paintings at one point just so they could buy them and auction. do, like, an auction to raise money for the victims' families just so they could destroy them.

Like, they paid a shit ton of money for them just to destroy them.

That's incredible. isn't that cool yeah um and but you know like you can they're in a lot of places he would also answer like surveys and stuff like which you can find we'll try to post a couple if I can find them because his answers are very strange to some questions uh but july 14 1980 um artist and professional and renowned facial reconstructionist betty pat gatliff reconstruction reconstructed the faces of the unidentified victims because right now there's a lot of unidentified So she painstakingly reconstructed these and they were like beautiful busts of just all these boys.

And the Cook County medical examiner, Robert Stein, who was part of the case, tried to convince, so they did a press conference where they unveiled all these and were like, does anyone know who these people are? boys are and they were they were wondering for a while like why more families hadn't come forward they were like why do we have all these uh boys.

I mean, they're teenagers. And they were, like, trying to figure out if, you know, missing... Usually missing kids of this age... they're going to have a family.

It's cleared up right away. Yeah. So Dr. Robert Stein went on this press conference and he tried to convince families to come forward and because he was like, I think he was basically like, I think they're not coming forward because they think that their kids were associated with Gacy somehow or associated themselves with Gacy.

And it had a lot to do with, like, you know, the gay lifestyle.

They were basically, like... We don't want to admit that our boys were possibly getting into some, like, sexual thing with this older man.

But they might not have been. That doesn't mean that all of these people were.

Well, and that's the thing. So at the press conference, Dr. Robert Stein said...

After they unveiled the faces, he said, quote, there is no evidence that an individual child here participated in any sexual deviant practices. yeah so he was trying to be like outwardly like we think these kids were abducted like they please do not think that your child had anything to do with this and, like, please come forward because we want to identify them.

Claim your child. And Robert Stein actually was, like, such a fucking... like champion for these kids he sounds like it he made it his duty to identify these boys like uh so There were nine donated brown caskets that they used for the boys for the unidentified remains.

They put yellow mums and daisies in a semicircle outside Abbey Chapel of Oak Ridge Glen Oak Cemetery.

They had a service with nine, or I'm sorry, They had a service for the nine unidentified victims, like a full service.

And then each one is buried in a separate cemetery with its own It had its own graveside service.

Each boy, like they made sure to make it.

He wanted this to happen. And they each got its own marker that say, quote, we remembered.

Wow. So they don't want and then he's quoted as saying, quote, I don't want to see you go to your final resting places as just numbers.

Yeah, that's great. What a fucking guy. That's really touching.

Yeah. That is a death investigator. Like, that is what a medical examiner should be.

Like, that is your whole job. is to fight for someone who cannot fight for themselves anymore.

Like, that's your whole job. And to see him be like...

I'm going to fight for these kids not to have to go to their graves unidentified forever.

Like they will not be, this will be the final place.

It's like, you're such a badass. And what's awesome is some of these boys have been identified.

So I'm going to skip ahead and then I'm going to go back to the fun part about John Wayne Gacy dying.

Okay. because I want to skip forward and just say some of these boys were identified as a result of this hard work.

So November 9th, 2011. DNA identified 19 year old William George Bundy.

So he was identified through DNA. July 19th, 2017.

DNA from a brother and sister identified 16-year-old victim Jimmy Hankinson. so they gave their dna it was able to match up with the dna they collected and they were able to identify them so they have two more identified um so that's huge now Going back, so Gacy's in prison, you know, he's painting fucking portraits, he's talking to people, he's being a dick.

He's claiming that there was accomplices, that he didn't do all this by himself.

He's trying anything at this point. So on May 10th, 1994, at age 52, He was executed at 1258 a.m. at Stateville Correctional Center.

His last meal was 12 deep fried shrimp, a bucket of original recipe chicken from KFC.

I'll never eat it this time. French fries and a pound of strawberries.

A pound of strawberries? Yeah. And his last words?

Kiss my ass. Those were his last words. What a gem.

What a fucking gem. What an absolute upstanding member of society.

Gacy keeping it classy till the very fucking end.

Good riddance. uh so yeah so i think the last thing i just wanted to mention um was the accomplices thing because that is a theory that has been floating around I don't think so.

I mean, if he had accomplices, maybe The teenage boys didn't know what was going on, but had an idea and maybe just dug trenches for him because they were like, we don't want to die.

I don't know if he had, but Jeffrey Rignall does say that he thought somebody else was in the room.

What do you think about that? To me, I can't discredit that.

If you thought he saw someone in the room, it's like maybe someone was in the room.

Here's my takeaway. I think he's like trying to say that he had accomplices in the murders, I wonder if the accomplices were, like, people that joined, like, they thought it was, like, some kind of sex ring or something like that.

Yeah. But they weren't involved in the murders.

That's what I wonder. I wonder if they were involved up to a point and then he took the final plunge because he very open about the fact before he he did a ted bundy he switched his tune and then all of a sudden was like what i don't know anything about this you're like fuck you dude they were found in your house already said you did yeah like any and they were all found in your fucking crawl space like get the fuck out of here dude like no one just crawled into your house and buried all these bodies like get out of here And he'll have you believe that he will have.

I've seen interviews with him where he's like, yeah, I came in and Michael Rossi and David Cram. had just murdered this kid.

And I was like, what's going on? And then I left.

And then I came home and he was gone. They must have buried him in my crawl space.

And it's like, are you seriously trying to think...

You really think people are going to believe that, you dumbass?

But he did. He absolutely believed that.

For a real smart guy, you're real dumb. So...

Or he just thinks that everybody else is dumb.

Yeah, I think that's what it is. So there is one that does raise a big flag.

The murder of Robert Gilroy. Gacy was in Pittsburgh when Robert Gilroy disappeared on September 15th, 1977, and it is confirmed by plane tickets.

So that's something that's... He was found in the crawlspace, but... Yeah.

I don't know. So that is... That to me says, did he have an accomplice for the abduction part?

Like, did somebody... Did maybe these teenagers... help him lure other teenagers and maybe that's how it happened then when he came home he murdered robert gilroy Or do you think somehow the Pittsburgh timeline just got fucked up?

I don't know. I don't know if it got fucked up.

I think maybe... I don't know. I really don't.

I think he's the main... the main guy, but maybe he intimidated some teenage boys around him into helping him get people into his grasp that's what i think very eerie it is but that is the sordid tale of john wayne gacy You did a wonderful job.

That was a doozy. Sorry these are so long, guys, but...

You know I can't do it. Oh, wow. We're almost at an hour and a half.

Wow. Sure are. That felt way faster. I was like, oh, that was only like 45 minutes.

Yeah, it did. It felt really fast. That was weird.

Time flies when you're doing this. When you're really grossed out and horrified. yeah but i think before we leave you i think we want to just uh say thank you to some patreons because this episode And is basically sponsored by them.

Yeah, so that's the truth. And thank you to... I'm so sorry if I messed your name up.

I want to say... I'm going to say Tan Fernandez.

Tan Fernandez. It's T-I-A-H-N. T-I-H-N. T-I-A-H-N.

Yeah. T-I-A-H-N. I literally didn't hear a word you just said.

You know what? I like the spelling and I wish I knew how to pronounce it.

Yeah. But it's awesome and you're awesome.

You're the best. Next is a Madonna named Allison.

Allison, so hot right now. And then Glory Creed.

Glory Creed. Thanks for making this episode possible.

Yeah. Kayla Rabe, thank you. Kayla Rabe, thank you.

Ashley Colpit, thank you. Ashley Colpit, you're the best. uh murphy nobles which is like a really cool name and also you have great hair in your picture so thank you murphy that's a great name thank you for this episode Thank you for this episode.

Next name is so pretty. Rosemary Watson.

Oh, I love that. Rosemary. Oh, rosemary.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Another Madonna.

Stephanie. Stephanie, so hot right now.

So hot right now. Next up is Caitlin Word. ward ward ward yes i thought it was weird i was like caitlin word i realized it sounded like that thank you caitlin ward Next is, I'm sorry if I fuck your name up, this is a Madonna Magrief, I want to say.

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We couldn't do it without you guys. We appreciate you so much.

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I've been deep diving into a very, really intricate case.

Yeah, so hold on to your butts. What what?

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Do it, Spotify. We hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it. weird but not so weird that you try to pretend to have multiple personality disorders and then the multiple personality disorder guy is like ah that's not right jacket or john or whatever your name is and it's just like you can't really lie about everything and Don't keep it so weird that you eat a pound of strawberries at once because I feel like that's probably not normal, especially if you eat original recipe chicken and shrimp with it and whatever. french fries like that's just not good and don't keep it so weird that your last words are kiss my ass because that's actually pretty disrespectful and you shouldn't say that bye Rude.

I also feel bad for the person who did his autopsy if they did it because that's a stomach.

Yeah, that's some stomach contents. That's something.

Anybody that was associated with him in any way, I'm so, so sorry.

Me too. So bye. Bye. Thank you. Thank you.

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[The Dark Finale: Unveiling the Crimes of John Wayne Gacy]-[Episode 139: John Wayne Gacy Part 3]

📋 Summary

The Unmasking of a Monster

Incompetence and Hubris

The Discovery of the Crawl Space

Trial, Sentencing, and Legacy

A Final Act of Respect

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript