Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery+.
It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes.
So don't wait. Try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.
Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar.
Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, and new ways of thinking.
Listening can lead to positive changes in your mood, your habits, and ultimately your overall well-being.
Audible has an incredible selection of over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and Audible Originals all in one easy app.
Find the genres you love and discover new ones.
Explore bestsellers like my sister's title.
New releases, plus thousands of included audiobooks, podcasts, and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time.
I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, I love Audible.
There's more to imagine when you listen.
Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free.
Visit audible.com slash morbid. Happy Egg believes in spreading happiness through the simple pleasure of high-quality and delicious eggs.
And when I say delicious, I am not joking you.
They're... eggs are the highest quality eggs that have ever, ever come into existence, in my opinion.
They're free-range farming standards, working with small family-owned farms to raise their Happy hens outside on a pasture, coupled with the care and treatment that their hens receive, lead to tasty, tasty, ridiculously tasty, yummy orange yolks. that are rich and full of flavor.
Happy egg hens spend their days outside and they're better for that.
They have those deep orange yolks that just look incredible if you're like a You know, you want to put that on your food Insta, that's the kind of egg you want on your Insta.
And you want that egg in your body as well because it just tastes so yummy, yummy, yummy.
Taste the difference and look for that yellow carton at the store near you.
Visit happyegg.com slash morbid to find a store near you.
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. it sure is and you're here i just i said hey hey weirdos it's ash and i like moved my head really fast and my neck cracked and it actually really hurt I love it.
It's probably good for you. Sure. It's like a self-chiropractic situation.
Love that. Love that for you. Should we say our shows really quick?
Yeah, before we dive into anything, we got to tell you about our shows, guys.
Because now there's so many. Because now we've finally been able to tell you about the new ones that we're real excited for.
They're on the live tree. So exciting. She calls it a live tree every single time, but it's called a link tree.
You know I meant to say it the right way this time too.
And I looked at it. You said it was. was such like gusto you were like the live tree because you know what it is live tree fuck everybody so it's a link tree but here they are Okay.
So anyway, I'm just kidding. April 14th, we're going to be at the Punchline Comedy Club in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Be there or be a rhombus. Oh, I like that.
Your elbow just cracked. It did. Are we 97?
That was my shoulder, actually. It felt really good.
Okay. And then April 15th, the very next day, we're going to be at the DC Improv in Washington, DC.
Ooh, monuments. Yes. April 23rd at the Gramercy Theater again for the Death Becomes Us show.
What up, Gramercy Theater? We're coming back. gotcha i hope death doesn't actually become us guys go buy those tickets go to bright young things.com and go buy tickets there Because we're bright young things and you want to come see us live.
And we've posted the links on tons of our social media for all of these things.
And also go to our website morbidpodcast.com and you'll find all of them too.
But keep going. Yeah. May 6th, we will be at Stand Up Live in Huntsville, Alabama.
Alabama. We're coming for you. And we won't do these accents because that's real annoying.
Yeah. And probably offensive. I'm sorry.
I always do it, though. I apologize. I bet Nashville people have accents, too, though.
They do. They have cool ones. Yeah, everybody has a cool accent.
Yeah, I don't know if I can do that. We're just not good at doing them.
Yeah. May 7th early and May 7th late. So we'll be at Zany's in Nashville.
What up, Nashville? We are coming for you.
And I said it once, I'll say it again. Jackie Schimmel had a show at Zany.
So like, I feel like royalty that we're going there.
Hell yeah. And also someone corrected me.
It wasn't white buffalo sauce that I want to get for John in Nashville.
It's white barbecue sauce. Oh, yeah. I love barbecue sauce, but why is it white?
It's like fancy. If you're from Africa, why are you white?
Mean girls quote. Yeah, don't ask. Then June 11th, we're going to be in Chicago because we added another show since so many of you wanted to see us.
And are you so excited? Because we were really excited to tell you guys about that one.
Because you kept saying like, oh man, the show is sold out.
And I kept feeling bad. But then I was like, wait a second.
I don't have to feel bad. We added a show.
Because we got another one. Another one.
It was so exciting because we had a few people that were just like, oh, I found out too late.
And I was like, oh, I feel bad. And then we added it and I was like, oh. we have to tell people now we told you and then we'll be there for the june 12th show as well both are at talia hall The creepiest, spookiest place ever.
Yes. And then the very last show. All of them are going to be great, but this one especially because it's in our motherfucking hometown.
Boston. Our motherfucking dream venue. Yeah.
I wanted you to say the Wilbur in that voice.
The Wilbur. July 11th. The Wilbur. Boston.
Guys, a lot of you have mentioned that you remember when we like put into the universe like a millionaire. episodes ago that we would love to do a live show at the Wilbur.
Yes. I didn't know what you said. I was like, ASMR.
You're like, yeah, ASMR. No, I'm really excited.
I'm really, really, really excited for the Wilbur and you better all be there.
Me and Annie went to a show at the Royale, which is, like, right down the street from the Woolbird the other night.
And we're just, like, walking past Rock Bottom, which is, like, one of your favorite places and one of my favorite places.
Love Rock Bottom. Yeah. And all of a sudden, Annie grabs my fucking arm like a crazy person.
She's like, ah, shit. I'm like, what, dude?
And she points up at the Wilbur. Like, what's that called?
Oh, the marquee. Yes. and she it was it said morbid and i literally video thing i i died my voice i'm sorry guys That's okay.
I died. You sent me the pic. Ash sent me the pictures of this and I am still not fully over it.
No, I'll never be over it. I'm not even under it.
I think I'm just within it. I'm adjacent to it.
I'm within it. I'm fully in it. It's insane.
It's enveloped me. I still can't believe... I can't believe we're playing... Playing?
Playing. I say playing. I don't know what it's called.
Yeah, like I'm just fucking... Whatever.
Rip out my guitar. I'm still astounded that we're doing any of these shows and that you guys are coming to them and wanting to see us.
You like us. In the Wilbur, just my mind can't wrap around that.
Because... especially like john and i throughout our entire relationship from like dating to now have like lived at the wilbur because we are comedy show gurus like we love comedy shows it's just a huge part of our relationship so we have been to like a zillion shows there and to think that i'm going to be on the stage now i can't it's insane yeah when we saw gary gulman there you and me i we were in the like literally the last row yes because i'm a broke bitch And we were just watching and I was like, oh my God, I was like, Gary Gull is there and like Ashkel and Elena Erk are going to be there.
Yeah. What the fuck? It's beyond. It really is.
So we just want to thank you guys so much for buying these tickets and for allowing us to do this because it's so fun.
And guys, a lot of, well, not a lot. Most of these shows are sold out.
I'm not going to lie to you. A lot of them are sold out, but The Wilder is not.
Boston's not. And I don't think Chicago, the first show. yeah the new show is not sold out yet for chicago and the wilbur so and also the grammar c theater death becomes us festival so go get your tickets for those Go to morbidpodcast.com.
They're all right there. Or you can look in our Instagram bio and the link tree is right there with all the shows.
Go do it because we want to keep doing this and it's going to be awesome.
So do you think that we probably talked enough?
I think we did. Don't want to get anybody on our case.
Yeah. We don't want to get anyone on our case.
File. Speaking of case. Case file. Love case. case file love it go listen to case file if you don't like our banter because he gets right to it if you like a serious show head over there and if you love a lovely accent we loves an accent go listen to that show and it's authentic it's not like my accent You have many accents, though, that you're pretty good at.
So let's talk about what we are going to cover tonight.
Okay. This is going to be part one of definitely a three-parter at the least.
This is going to be a very large dive into this case.
We are going to be covering the West Memphis Three.
I'm stoked for this because I remember in high school when you were like, sit the fuck down.
We're watching this documentary. It's going to change your life.
And I was like, OK, let me tell you something.
I was like, I'm 16. Calm down. And I was like, you need to watch this.
And then the opening scene, I was like, well, I'm hooked.
Yeah. The opening scene will ruin your life, but it's... Yeah.
It's... This whole documentary was so... The documentary.
This whole case... is mind-blowing from start to finish it's still mind-blowing it's not even over really so This one, I mean, this has been covered by a few other podcasts.
There's been books about it. There's been... documentaries about it there's been actual movies about it with like reese witherspoon playing pamela hobbs and so i'm not gonna lie to you that movie sucks no it was terrible okay cool Glad we're on the same page.
Like, hashtag sorry. But it was not good.
But, you know, we all try. We're just out here trying on this big floating rock.
Paradise Lost, that documentary? Yeah, those documentaries are great.
Great. And what was different about this case is it was one of the first ones, especially during the... satanic panic era that cameras were allowed in the courtroom so we got to see a lot of that which which changed it i think that's part of the reason this got so much hype because although this is a crazy case when you listen to it this shit happens all the time Oh, yeah.
People that are lower income, like poor people that are outcasted cannot, you know... they are the ones who get thrown to the wolves more often times than not and put in the position to be arrested and put on death row like these boys were it's so fucked up so It's really sad and it's really fucked up and it exposes a lot of shit about America, especially.
And speaking of that, I want to... I want to protect ourselves from the vast amount of DMs and messages and emails that that will probably be yelling at me because that happens a lot during these things.
Truly. So, first of all, most people, when you guys have something to tell me that I was wrong about or... something that you have a differing opinion about nine times out of ten i love it because usually people are respectful and it teaches you Yeah, and they want to teach me something, which I love.
They're respectful about it. They start a dialogue with me.
We can have a good conversation. Or with other listeners.
I love scenes. that yeah and i encourage that huge and respectful dialogue yeah and especially in this case because people are going to have totally differing opinions this is a really just like it's got both sides and it's people are really passionate on both sides Totally respect that.
Just be respectful with your opinions. So I'm going to start off by saying if political and religious affiliations are brought up in regards to this case because it does have a place in this case it's because it's pertinent to the narrative and it's factual it's not me surmising anything based off of, you know, what I think of people or anything like that.
I am only saying these things as facts. Like that this takes place in the Bible Belt and that this was a very conservative religious community.
That is not, again, not me coming up with it.
It's just a fact. Yeah, and we're not going to state our opinion either way.
No. And just like Ted Bundy was a Republican, John Wayne Gacy was a Democrat. shitty people lie on both sides of the aisle exactly I'm not making it up I will only bring it up if it is Again, pertinent to the narrative of what we're talking about.
Like Ted Bundy, it was pertinent to the story when we cover John Wayne Gacy, which we will. it's going to be pertinent to that story to talk about him being a democrat so i don't want anybody to be like ah you're attacking my religion or my political affiliation because we're not And I just, shut up.
Like, I'm not. So, like, if it offends you.
I'm like, because we're not. I'm like, shut up.
Fuck it. Because I'm not. We've gotten to that point where we're over it.
It's just facts. If the facts upset you, I don't know what to tell you.
I can't change them to bend to your will.
So I just wanted to put that out there so that we could kind of avoid any conflict that may or may not arise because of this.
So we're going to jump right in. So this case takes place in 1993.
I wasn't even alive. Wow. Everybody drink that in for a second.
I mean, three years. That always stresses me out.
It's my favorite thing to say to you. So, so Ash wasn't alive yet.
Everybody just deal with that. You're welcome.
And so this was in West Memphis, Arkansas in the United States.
If you are not from the United States, this is like I said, a very, at least at the time, It was a very conservative, very religious place.
It was very small town-ish. You know what I mean?
Like, outcasts at that time were not really...
Taken too fondly. Yes, we will see This was also because this was really due to the satanic panic hysteria that was going on in the United States and This happened between the 1980s and the early 1990s.
So this was like prime time. Right. Now, just a little bit of like, just to show you a little bit of how the satanic panic thing was happening.
In 1988, Geraldo Rivera, who I fucking hate.
Just putting it out there. I fucking hate Geraldo Rivera.
He made a documentary called Devil Worship, exposing Satan's underground.
Oh, good. Yeah. And it was just him being like, ah, let's get everybody scared.
And that's fun. So he basically, and it also became the highest rated televised documentary to air up until that point.
Oh, wow. So that's telling you like how big this whole thing was.
Right. How scared people were. Yeah. 1991, 2020 did an episode that televised an official Roman Catholic exorcism.
Are you serious? Yep. And that's terrifying to anybody.
I mean, I think we can all agree a real exorcism would be real. scary to watch at 2020 no thanks so that's really gonna aid them in their you know satanic panic situation because if you're watching real exorcism you're gonna be like what the fuck is going on what is America and there were also like there was a documentary it was an evangelical documentary called Hell's Bells and it kind of tried to connect rock music and metal to the devil yeah that's you know that's a far-fetched thing and that's a huge thread that will like run throughout this we're really going to touch upon that in like part two when we get to the suspects.
Got it. Right now in part one, we're really just going to set the scene.
I'm going to tell you about the crimes because uh fair warning they're horrific uh i'm gonna warn you again when i'm gonna talk about the injuries and stuff because it's really terrible yeah they're fucked up um But part two, we're really going to discuss Damian Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miskelly, how they became wrapped up in this, and...
You know, their backgrounds, all that good stuff.
So, August, I'm going to bring you forward a little bit first.
Okay. August 19th, 2011. Okay. Oh, okay.
Forward a lot of it. Forward a lot of it.
Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Miskelly. walked out of a courthouse in Jonesboro, Arkansas as free men.
Hell yeah. All of them had spent 18 years behind bars after being convicted of the absolutely heinous murders. of Stevie Branch, Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore, who were all eight years old back in May 1993. now Damien Echols was 36 years old when he was released he was 18 when he was arrested oh my god He had spent his time on death row because he was sentenced to death.
Jason Baldwin was 34, my age, when he was released.
He was 16 when he was arrested. Jeez. Jesus.
And he had been sentenced to life. Jesse Miskelly was 36 when he was released and he was 17 when he was arrested.
Sentenced to life as well. Like I said, we're going to be going much further into all three of these men's lives, the background connections to the case in part two.
So we're going to connect. We're going to start with the crime.
Going way back now, Wednesday, May 5th, 1993, West Memphis, Arkansas.
Eight-year-olds Christopher, Stevie, and Michael.
They head off on their bikes to play. Michael's mother Dana saw them head off around 6 p.m. was the last time she saw them.
Yep. Now, they all lived in the same neighborhood.
Two of them were next door neighbors. I think Christopher and Michael were next door neighbors and Stevie lived like not far away.
Mm hmm. It was one of those neighborhoods where you send them off to play, they come back.
You know, and it was 1993. Right, you're not too worried about anything.
You send your kid out to play in the neighborhood, they come back by dinner.
That's really what it was. Right. So north of their homes was a place called Robin Hood Hills, which was a very...
It was kind of like deceptively thick wooded area around three or four acres large.
This wasn't a good place to play from a parent's perspective, but a great place from a kid's perspective.
Right. Because it was like this creepy forest.
It had like ditches and creeks and like wooded areas and forts you could make and stuff.
It was like Bridge to Terabithia. It was exactly that.
So mainly, you know, Parents didn't love this because it was in very close proximity to a very busy truck stop and one of the busiest freeways in the country.
So yeah, please don't play their kids. It was basically on the other side of the woods was this freeway and a truck stop.
So these three had been best friends. They were Cub Scouts together.
Stop. Not Eagle Cubs yet. I love that. And this would be the last time that they would be seen alive.
Now, John Mark Byers was Christopher Byers' stepfather.
He had called police on this day to report his eight-year-old stepson Christopher was missing.
Now, Dana Moore, their neighbor, was the last to see the kids at 6 p.m., like I said.
Right. She said Christopher or John Mark Byers said that Christopher was playing with Dana's son when he last saw him, their son, Michael.
And now neither of them had been seen since 6 p.m.
Now, Officer Meek is the one who responded to the call.
She was told that Christopher... Christopher Mark Byers was born June 23, 1984.
He was about 4'4", about 50 pounds, dark hair and brown eyes.
He was wearing blue jeans and a long sleeve white shirt when he was last seen.
He was also on some medication. He was on Ritalin for hyperactivity.
And he had not been given his medication that day, which John Mark Byers was concerned about, obviously.
Officer Meek takes John Mark Byer's statement, and as she does this, she receives a call from a nearby Bojangles restaurant.
This is like a chicken fast food place. Love it.
We don't have them around here, so I'm not positive.
Anyone from the South, I think, is where they are.
Let us know. Is it good? I don't know. We would go.
We would go. Chicken, am I right? meek arrives at the bojangles restaurant so she leaves john mark byers she's like all right we'll get on this She arrives at the Bojangles restaurant and she talks to a person who called, basically.
It was the manager. His name was Marty King. she talks to him through the takeout window weird she doesn't go into the restaurant is she standing i guess uh So the report that he gave was that shortly before she arrived, he had witnessed a black man enter the restaurant.
That was not like, you know, that's not weird, but...
He was covered in blood. That's weird. So that's weird.
He was very disoriented, like very like all over the place.
So they immediately were like, what the hell is going on?
He went into the ladies room and was, again, very disoriented, falling into the walls and stuff.
They called the police and he had left on foot before they got there.
Okay. Now, blood was all over the bathroom wall, all over the bathroom stall, like smeared, like he clearly had it.
They were like, I don't know if he was bleeding per se, but he had blood on him.
Yeah. It looked like he was bleeding in some way, but like, I don't know if it was all his blood.
So Officer Meek never went into the restaurant.
Okay. She didn't go in. Seems like that would be standard procedure.
It's just like, what? I'm not a cop, but...
Well, she got another call while she was taking this report.
And it was from someone like... some like disorderly contact conduct call like you know can't you send somebody else And she left to go do that, which is why she didn't go into the restaurant.
But it's like, I don't know. That seems I think I would take priority to this.
Well, it's like, why are they throwing all these different things at you?
Like, can you just like finish one thing good?
Yeah, it's like maybe just be like, hey, can someone else take that disorderly conduct to some weird shit's going on at a Bojangles?
Right. And I just had a missing kid. I'm currently at a bloody blowjangles.
Can you wait a minute? I didn't mean to say that.
That bloody blow jingles. So she leaves to go tend to that, the disorderly contact.
During this, she gets another call. This call is from Dana Moore, Michael Moore's mother.
Okay. It's now 924 p.m. Dana says Michael is missing, still missing.
And he was riding bikes with Chris Byers.
And now she says they were also with Stevie Branch.
Right. Michael Moore was born James Michael Moore on July 27th, 1984.
He was about four feet tall, 60 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes.
These kids were so freaking cute. They were fucking adorable.
Like Michael Moore. I just want to smush him.
He was wearing blue jeans, a Boy Scout shirt, and an orange Boy Scouts hat.
Oh, like adorable. They were riding around the neighborhood and she says it had been a while since she spotted him, like she was trying to keep an eye on them.
They kind of went out of her sight for a little while.
So she got a little like, okay, I need to know where they are.
So she sent her older daughter Dawn after them to go see where they were going.
Right. Dawn couldn't find them. So she was like, I don't like this.
Doesn't sit well. So now another officer is called and they go respond. to another call, another call that's coming from Catfish Island restaurant where Pamela Hobbs is working.
Pamela Hobbs is Stevie branch's mother. Okay now Pam called police because Terry Hobbs her husband and stepfather to Stevie branch and came to pick her up from work with their oldest daughter Amanda and it was about 9 20 p.m.
He had showed up. Yeah. He walked into the restaurant.
He like went right by her and went straight to a payphone and called someone.
Which is weird. Never told her, like didn't like immediately tell her who or give her any kind of context.
So Pam's like, what the fuck? So she leaves the restaurant and goes to the car because she's like, I don't know what he's doing.
He'll tell me. And she notices that only Amanda's in the car and not Stevie.
So immediately she's like, where's Stevie?
He's eight. Like, you can't leave him alone.
Yeah, exactly. um terry comes out and is like i just called the police from that payphone because stevie's missing and she's like what and he's like me and amanda have been together this entire time trying to find him Weird that you're already setting up that you were with someone else.
That never sits well. I'm not accusing anyone of anything.
I'm just putting it out that is a little strange of anybody to be like, by the way.
This whole time. Which ends up being not the case.
Just putting that out there. Right. So. He's like, you know, Stevie hasn't come home.
Stevie went out with Chris and Michael. We can't find any of them.
We've been looking. So that's when an Officer Moore arrives.
Not related. Got it. And talks to Pam. So she says Stevie left to go outside and play after school.
She hadn't seen him since because she was at work.
Right. So she mentions that Dana had seen him around 6 p.m.
Like that was the story. And that's the last she knew.
So Stevie was born Steve Edward Branch on November 26, 1984.
She told police he was about 4'2", 60 pounds, with blonde hair and blue eyes.
He was wearing blue jeans and a white short-sleeved shirt.
Which sounds like a little like. Like such a cute little.
Like James Dean. Yeah. Like blonde hair, blue eyes with a little.
Yeah. Like a little cutie patootie. I just want to like gather them all up and be like, you're okay.
Oh, I hate that. So reports were that they were headed in the direction of Robin Hood Hills from people who had last seen them. right because people were like yeah i think they were going that way um now remember that's not a kid-friendly place from a parent's point of view it had a large drainage ditch that was deep It could be dangerous.
Everyone is searching the neighborhoods at this point, like family and friends.
They're asking if people saw them, getting witness statements.
They start searching the woods, but it's pitch black out at this point.
Yeah, it's probably like, what, 10 or something?
Yeah, and after midnight, there's still no sign of them.
Oh, God. Now I cannot fathom. No. This.
I really can't. I can't fathom this. fathom i was like whoa i cannot fathom it i can't even say the word fathom right so But yeah, that would be awful.
The next morning, they pick the search back up.
The family and friends of these boys joined law enforcement on a massive search that involved multiple police departments like even the state department came out like It was huge.
Yeah, I mean, there's three eight-year-old boys missing, like, overnight.
Yeah. This is fucked up. And just gone, like...
And this is like the early 90s. I'm sure this didn't really happen a lot or hadn't happened a lot in that area.
This is a small area. You know, it's a very... Everybody knows everybody probably.
When they had ground crews and helicopters searching for them, Robin Hood Hills was massively searched.
Now, May 6th, 1993, so the day after they went missing.
Okay. In the early afternoon, the three boys' bodies were discovered.
Oh, okay. Yeah, so the worst case scenario.
This gets rough, doesn't it? This gets really rough.
I don't recommend looking up... any like crime scene photos or anything unless i mean if you want to that's it is they are in the In the documentary.
The documentary shows very graphic photos of this and video.
It's upsetting, but it's also necessary to tell this story, unfortunately.
Right. But it's really upsetting. Some people can handle it.
Some people can't. So there's something called a diversion ditch in the Robin Hood Hills.
And it's filled with water. And I think what it basically does is like separates where the part of the woods go to the freeway and where it enters.
Right. Now over that water, there's a big pipe that acts like a bridge over it.
Okay. And this bridge goes from like the entrance of the woods into the inside of the woods.
At 1.30 p.m. as the searchers were leaving that area, Officer Steve Jones, a juvenile officer... who comes back into this story later um he spots a black sneaker clearly a child sneaker with no laces in the creek So they had already searched this area thoroughly.
So they're already like, what the fuck is that doing there?
Right, because it wasn't there before. So it seemingly floated to the surface.
So now they're like, oh, no. So there's no dive crew on scene or anything.
And they were like, someone has to go in there.
And they have to investigate this. And it was like murky.
Just muddy water, like, really gross. So Detective Brian Ridge, who, like... high five Brian Ridge because for him to offer to do this is like...
Huge. Some real cop shit here. Like he's a true blue cop here.
So he offers to go into the water. Right.
He's feeling around on his hands and knees in two to three foot water.
Oh, my God. And it's like mud. Like just dirty, gross water.
And he's literally just crawling on his hands and knees waiting to hit something.
That's fucked up. And I hate... I'm not a big water person.
Like, I'm not a great swimmer. I don't like water.
And... Things underwater? Like, things submerged in water freak me out.
I get that. Waiting to hit something underwater would... I couldn't do it.
That's your worst nightmare. I just couldn't do it.
So suddenly, he jumps in. He pumps... Wow.
He bumps into something. Okay. He pulls this something out of the water and what he pulls up is the body of Michael Moore.
Oh my goodness. So he bumped into the body of Michael Moore.
Oh, that's so awful. Which is horrific. This is where it gets really rough.
Just warning you, kids, real rough. Michael Moore is naked completely.
His left hand was tied to his left foot and his right hand was tied to his right foot behind his back.
So like hogtied almost. Hogtied. That's what they called it.
So basically, if you laid on the ground...
And you put both your feet up behind you and then you like put your arms behind you and tied them together.
That's how they're. Oh my gosh. A very very weird way to tie someone.
Right. So they were tied with their own shoelaces out of their own shoes.
He had several bruises, welts, lacerations all to his head and his face. um now brian ridge is like oh shit they put they put michael moore's body on the bank and that was like i have two more boys and he's like We just found one.
I have to keep looking. The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, and magic.
Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery+.
Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondery app.
So he keeps searching. He eventually finds Stevie Branch's body.
He's found naked as well and tied in the same way. it seemed that he had the same kind of beating marks to his head and face and neck, bruising, welts, lacerations.
Yeah. The thing that sticks out about this boy's injuries was the possible bite marks on his face.
Bite marks on his face. It appeared that he had bite marks around his face.
And I looked at the autopsy photos. which are horrific, just to warn you if you go looking at them, that side of his face has been chewed up.
By a person? Well, that's what they think.
So it's been really, really demolished. So he looks like someone savagely bit his face.
Oh, my God. God, in several times. Brian Ridge is like, now we have to go back in.
So he goes back in and he finds Christopher Byer's body.
Same ligatures, naked, beaten in the same manner.
Christopher, however, and this is really rough, had been castrated.
Yeah, this is awful. So this is going to be graphic, just letting you know, but it's important to tell you what happened to these poor boys.
His scrotum was cut off and the head of the penis was gone.
And there were also several stab marks all around the area.
Ah. um as if it had been like carved the these two things were never found these things that have been cut off of him they never found them Okay.
Which is strange. That is. And it's also strange to have one... It's almost like it was like a... like a variation of injuries it was like christopher got this horrific genital mutilation stevie got this horrific facial mutilation and then michael just kind of got it's almost like a a gradient it's like an well it's almost like an elevation of rage like maybe he was killed first and then he got the whoever murdered him was getting more pissed off and then yeah the end rage or yeah or it could have even gone the other way like well that's what it yeah yeah it's very strange And it makes it, these are why, this is why like when they came down to trying to understand, did they know the person that did this to them?
Did they not? know it as a group of people.
And I guess that's, if you think about it, why it wasn't pinned on just one person.
Exactly, because there are a lot of things in this case that point to multiple people.
But then there's a lot of things in this case that you can also point to being like, okay, but one person could.
One really fucked up person. Yeah. Like you could, because people will be like, how could you control three boys?
They're eight. They're eight. terrified if you terrify them right you know it's it's it's not easy i wouldn't think and i feel like you Would almost be I don't know if this makes sense but almost be more scared of somebody that you know.
Yeah. As opposed to somebody that you don't know.
Yeah, like you'd weirdly trust them in a way, and then if that's betrayed right in front of you, it almost paralyzes you.
And I think it would be almost like I think it would be harder to get away from somebody that you do know as opposed to somebody that you don't know.
Yeah, I could see that. You know what I mean?
Yeah, I could definitely see that. So they keep searching because now they're like, okay, we have three bodies.
They've laid them out on the banks. That's actually an image in the Paradise Lost documentary.
It's awful. They keep searching because now they're like, they don't have their clothing.
Where are their clothing and where are their bikes?
And they need, I mean, there's so much evidence that could be on that.
Now we got to make sure we get everything.
So they keep searching and they finally find their clothing.
So what had happened was someone took sticks and pinned the clothing to the bottom of the muddy creek.
Okay. And they had pinned the kids as well with their ligatures.
So that's why they weren't floating to the surface.
They were like pinned down by these. big sticks that someone stuck so it was like they stuck it in between where they had been tied exactly and they pinned down the clothing to the bottom same thing okay So they also found two bikes.
Now, most people are like, where's the third bike?
There were reports that there were either three bikes or that one of them... was like riding on the back of the other bike right that kind of thing it's like kids do that yeah i mean I used to do that all the time with my friends.
Exactly. So now they remove them from the water and place them on the water bank.
That's problematic. Because the coroner really should be the one to take them out of the water.
Right. And if it's not possible, you should call them right away because they need to gather... evidence around and on the body before you transport them.
The coroner was not called for another two hours.
Do you know why that is? No. I think it's... I know that part of it was they were searching for the clothing, so...
But the problem there is you've now put these bodies that were in water for we don't know how long on the banks. in may in arkansas hot sun and now we're we're even speeding further up decomp which is already speeding up from the water right So it's like now we've further kind of skewed time of death and injuries as well.
Right. So it's like while they were looking for the clothing and the bikes, they're just sitting on the banks waiting for the coroner to call.
It's just a long time. and so the coroner was finally called at 3 20 p.m to come to blue beacon truck stop to pick the bodies up because they wouldn't even be able to get the vehicle in the woods to get them Oh, so then they moved them from the bank to the... Exactly.
So then they wrapped them in sheets, put them in body bags, and carried them to the vehicle.
And wrapping them in sheets is probably not a great thing to do.
This is all kind of necessary. You know what I mean?
I don't want to shit too much on this whole thing.
They kind of had their, like, this is a poor choice of words, their hands tied in this scenario.
Right. Because it's like they're in this, that forest is like deceptively thick. and it's just a very weird place to get to and it's like I understand why they were kind of like So, like, I'm not saying they, like, botched this or anything like that, but, like, protocol wasn't perfect here.
Right. Everything... could have gone a little smoother in this scenario but it was like they were they were doing their best given the circumstances normally I'm real quick to be like they fucked this up but like this is a did they fuck it up a little sure but like did they have too many choices here not really Well, and this is a very niche case.
It is. It's hard to just shit on it. But, you know, they did what they could.
They got him to the coroner vehicle. At this point, people had like gathered outside of the woods, like outside of the perimeter.
Yeah. Because they have the crime scene tape up and everything like that.
They actually have video of Pamela Hobbs.
And Terry Hobbs being told. And it is... heart-wrenching i was just gonna say pamela hobbs has the reaction that you're like yep That's what I would do.
That's exactly what I would do. She literally just... falls to the ground and she's just screaming of course she is and it's like she's like paralyzed falls to the ground Oh, that's just like so sad.
It really is. It's terrible to watch. So detective or inspector Gary Gitchell. is put on the case as the lead investigator okay um i have feelings about gary gitchell but Whenever you have feelings about somebody, they're typically not good ones.
I have some feelings. Are we going to get to it later?
We are definitely going to dive deeper. real deep into them later probably in part two uh i think that he was just very um Very set in his thinking of wanting to close this case as soon as possible, regardless of future. facts and evidence i think that's always an issue it's like sure we want to close the case like we want to figure out who did this but we don't want to close it for it to just be closed.
Yeah, you don't want to close it with the wrong people behind bars.
Like, that's... That's not really closing it.
That's just closing it on paper and trying to make people feel better.
Which... I understand that this case was really like a hot topic because It was like three eight year old boys.
Right. There's parents that are sitting there being like.
Fix this. Find who killed my children. And then there's also other parents that are sitting there being like, are our children next?
We need to know if this person is caught or not.
I get that. But again, you can't just line the evidence to fit your way of thinking.
You have to go with the evidence. And actually do the job that you're supposed to do.
And because of the significance of this case, it was pretty much the biggest thing that was hitting the area in a long time.
Yeah, of course. West Memphis did not have these kind of homicides. the Arkansas State Police actually offered to help the West Memphis PD.
They were like, can we offer our assistance?
Because the West Memphis PD had never, they didn't even have training to handle these kind of homicides.
So they were just flying off the seat of their pants trying to do what they could do.
Now, Gary Gitchell declined their help, which is, I'm sorry, that's just stupid.
It's just him with like the hero complex of wanting to be the one to solve the case, which like good for him if he really wants to solve the case.
Yeah. But like solve the fucking case. Exactly.
So, you know, this was huge. One thing that was good was he was doing the thing that a lot of police officers departments do in these scenarios. which is try to keep as many details to the chest as they possibly can.
Because again, when you start... you know, trying to find who did this, you don't want someone that's read it and is giving you that detail because they read it in a paper.
Mm-hmm. you want them to slip and say a detail and be like oh that's nowhere i don't know why you would know that you know right so they wanted to keep it all hidden But unfortunately, the same evening that the boys were found, some reporters from the Memphis Commercial Appeal newspaper We're sitting around doing what reporters did, especially back then and listening to police scanners.
Oh, shit. Because that's how you find your big scoops.
Right. They start listening. They hear this crime scene going on.
They hear all the details. Oh, shit. So what did they do?
Boom in the paper the next day. So do they typically say like everything via police scanner or has that changed now because of.
Well, you can hide channels. Like in the poly class case, they accidentally hid some of the information, the bolo. from all the area police right you can put it on a certain channel this just wasn't you know the scanners work the way they work right it's like they're gonna hear um And I don't think they were really thinking that far ahead, to be honest.
But it was printed front page the next day. so now and also it was printed like a lot of inaccuracies were put in that one like um they added they made it that the boys were sexually assaulted and that was not proven to be true. right and that was just them surmising it from what they saw at the scene that was no medical examiner saying that or anything so it was printed as fact when it wasn't okay um So now the whole idea of trying to keep it close to the chest is shot.
They really don't have anything to work with at this point.
Because the crime scene itself had like very little evidence.
Right. There was no blood visible at the crime scene, which is shocking. when you look at the injuries to the boys, everybody was like, where the hell did that blood go?
So now they're thinking where they killed on the bank and put in the water.
Were they killed in the water or were they killed somewhere else and brought here?
Well, and didn't it seem to begin with like they were killed somewhere else and then brought there because they had just searched that whole area and then the shoe came back up?
Not necessarily. Necessarily. When they were searching the area, the boys were underwater.
They just didn't see them because the water is very murky and muddy and even though like the oh because the shoe was in the water too yeah the shoe just floated up i see what you're saying um So in the way the crime scene was, it made it very difficult to gather a lot of evidence.
So now... Their only option is we got to look at the boys.
We have to look at the injuries, the ligatures.
What can we gather from this? Mm-hmm. So they do see that this way of hog tying them was weird like as we said it was it wasn't like a normal you don't find people hogtied like that very often no Especially not fucking children.
Yeah. So they were like, this is peculiar.
So they started... One of the officers on scene was like, well...
In Vietnam, in the war, this is how they would do this to prisoners.
Like prisoners of war. Like a weird torture thing.
And so they were like, maybe this is someone that's been in the Vietnam War and saw this kind of thing.
Okay. Because it is, again, peculiar. Sure.
So they started thinking, you know, is this a Vietnam vet?
Should we be looking for a Vietnam vet? At this point, they're literally grasping straws.
Yeah. Which is why they come so quickly to the, oh, it must be those goth kids scenario.
Because they got nothing. They really do.
So they started thinking about that and then they see they're looking further into the ligatures now that they've kind of sat there and said, okay, the hog tying is weird.
Maybe a Vietnam vet. someone who has seen this kind of thing before because you don't just come up with that right so then they start seeing the kind of knots that were used because it wasn't It's so funny.
Whenever I hear like kinds of knots used, I'm like, I just tie knots.
Like my knots would not be anything. It's just a knot.
It's so weird to me when people use specific knots, too, because I'm like, why would you use a specific knot?
It's a very specific detail that they could tie to you.
Right. It's just weird to me. Do you think it's like force of habit?
I think it is. Yeah, I think it might just be like that's how they tie because they were taught to tie that knot.
Well, Michael and Christopher were tied with the same exact knots.
All of their ligatures were tied with one knot.
And do you know what it was? I don't know what the knot was.
Honestly, even if I knew the knot, like the name of the knot, I wouldn't even know what it was.
What it looked like, yeah. I did see a couple of things where they listed different knots that people said it was, but they weren't reliable and they were different.
I don't want to report that. Right. So Stevie was tied with two different kinds of knots and those two knots were different from Christopher and Michael's knots.
So we're dealing with Three different kinds of knots here.
Three different kinds of knots. Christopher and Michael have the same ones.
Stevie has two different ones. Okay. That's interesting.
Weird. So that to me says... Two people.
That's several people. Yeah. At least two people.
Right. It would be very odd for him or her...
To suddenly switch up knots with another kid and also put two different knots than the other ones?
Like, that would be weird. Unless you're just trying to fucking showcase your...
Talents and nots. Yeah. And I feel like that's something that maybe wouldn't come to your mind during this.
Right. But... So that's weird. They also found DNA in one of the ligatures and they believed this could have come from the killer.
So they found skin, basically. Yeah. like pieces of, I think like cuticle as well at the time.
They couldn't do a whole lot with it, but.
That's always so frustrating when it's like, and it was the 90s, so you couldn't do anything with it.
I'm like, God damn it. What they did have was luminol.
Okay. We know luminol. I mean, everybody's watched CSI, right?
It lights up when it comes in contact with bodily fluids.
Or hello, forensic files. Exactly. Fucking loves luminol.
So they use luminol to basically tell, we don't see any blood, but let's see if there's blood around here.
Mm-hmm. So from the report, they said there was a trail along a stream bed. with positive reactions to the luminol on either side of a tree.
And the tree had more reaction noted to the right side of the tree, which was facing the stream.
Okay. There was also an area with used plastic sheeting west of the trail.
There were positive reactions to the luminol there, which I wondered, I was like, could they have used like sheeting or something to catch all the stuff?
Like it's a possibility. I don't know. And then they said to the right of some more trees at the west bank of the stream.
There was another positive reaction with the luminol.
But it was explained by the police later that that's where the two victims were placed when they were taken out of the stream bed. okay so it reacted positively which which it's good that they were able to explain that because it means the luminol did its job right um in the same stream bed uh There was a positive reaction indicated where another one of the victims was placed out of the water.
So again, we're having like a control here that's working for them.
Okay. On the east side of the east bank of the stream bed, there were a pile of sticks and a depression in the soil where the luminol-tested... a concentrated area of positive reaction okay so a very concentrated area of like a lot there had been a lot of blood there at one point so there's that and again Who's to say this is their blood?
It is the woods. Right. Animals bleed. I don't... It's like...
There was also a positive reaction near some tree roots and in the end They basically said that the traces of presumed blood detected along the trail and at the bluff and on the slope of the bank. were where the rescue and recovery teams took them out of the water.
So that was all explained away. They said that the areas that were really positive with that pile of sticks, the large concentration, and also the ones near the tree roots, That to them indicated that it happened prior to the recovery of the victims and were perhaps when they were being attacked.
Okay. So those they do look at as possibly their blood before they're recovered.
But there's no way to be like 100% sure.
There's no way. Yeah. So now it does say in the report that this luminal testing was done days after they were recovered.
And at least one rainfall had happened. Okay.
So that is tough. Yeah. I mean, again, the luminol proved itself to work when... you know, when the control tests were basically done where they had placed the body.
Sure. I mean, you got to take that with a grain of salt, but at least they did a luminal test.
Right. But it also, again, doesn't explain a lot of where the blood went.
Like, where is all that blood? Most of it was done to their heads and necks and faces.
Which bleed a lot. Anything from the neck up is gonna bleed a ton.
Exactly. And then also the other thing that's going to bleed a ton is your genital area.
Right. And as we know, Christopher Byers was castrated. right so that would have been an and also stevie branch's face i mean that was a massive wound right all of this would have bled a lot the only other thing i can think of is if it happened in the water that's what I was literally just about to ask you yeah so I mean it could have it could have seems like that would be It would definitely be difficult.
I mean, this whole thing would be really difficult.
But then maybe they ran into the water. I mean, the thing is, they also... There was nothing that indicated that they were stabbed through their clothing.
So it looks to me like they were... hogtied or at least stripped.
And then attacked. Attacked or... I should say probably beaten at some point and then forced to strip or stripped.
I know. And part two, we're going to get into like way more of this kind of thing, like the theories and all this.
Yeah. But so the autopsy was done May 7th by Dr. Frank Peretti.
What it stated was that Michael Moore received 63 specific injuries.
He had 34 injuries on the right side and 19 on his left.
Christopher Byers had 62, 16 on his right and 36 on his left.
Steve Branch had 21. He had 7 on his right and 11 on his left.
Wow. These are all just like small like lacerations and bruising.
Michael Moore had a lot of skull fractures.
He had 10. Oh, my God. Which indicates a severe beating.
Yeah. Almost all of his injuries were on his upper body.
He had a ton of defensive wounds, which is really sad.
Christopher Byers had... Of course, a lot of injuries to his lower body.
Altogether, 24. Oh my god. Now, the cause of death for Stevie and Michael was drowning.
Oh. And for Christopher, it was blood loss. from the stabbing um so that's interesting that stevie and michael went into the water still alive And Christopher didn't.
That is weird. And it makes the time a little weird because you're like, so did...
So Christopher died essentially from bleeding out, which can happen quickly if you hit the right thing.
I mean, I'm not. I don't see anything about his femoral artery being severed or anything, but that'll happen in like minutes.
Yeah. But, I mean, they were near that.
Right. So it could have potentially happened.
And there are a lot of different things down there.
I mean, I'm no doctor, but it seems like it could happen pretty quickly.
Right. And then Michael and Stevie, it's like, so they got a severe beating, it looks like. were clearly like stabbed and lacerated in the face and neck and head.
Right. And then just plunged into the water.
And it's like, was Christopher out of the water at that point or was he in the water?
Right. Because he didn't drown. So he had to be dead when he was placed in the water.
Right. It's just the whole thing is like really hard to like wrap your brain around.
Yeah, it really is. What's odd about this too was like the families were like barely interrogated with the exception being John Mark Byers who was definitely interrogated and with good reason.
Pamela Hobbs and Dana Moore really just spoke briefly with the police on May 10th and it wasn't until recently that Terry Hobbs was interviewed at length at all Okay.
Later, police did search the homes and they collected clothing samples for fibers and such, but Terry and Pam's home was not initially searched. specifically for fibers okay which we'll find out later is a problem Right.
So now to me, when I was listening to this, especially with the knots, when the knots came up, I was like, did anyone look at their Cub Scout? leaders right or anybody to do with the cub scouts right they know knots and shit yeah And that's a little weird to me that they like, but then I looked and it looks like Michael Moore's father was one of their Cub Scout leaders.
And I don't. to me he doesn't ring as a suspect but there's got to be other cub scout leaders right i don't know it could be a thing but uh I think they did interview a couple of the Cub Scout leaders, but it never, nothing ever came with it.
So on May 7th, Steve Jones, he was one of the officers on the scene when they found the boys.
He was a juvenile officer. He was the one who saw... I believe he was the one who saw the... the sneaker first.
Right, right, right. So he interviewed...
Damien Echols. Now he did this at the encouragement of another juvenile officer named Jerry Driver. okay jerry driver was literally obsessed with damian eccles weird obsessed where he was like He is the devil.
He's a devil worshipper. We need to lock him up.
And he was like that from the jump. I mean...
And at one point, Jerry Driver, in fact, in part two, I'm going to get... I'm going to show you guys a ton more quotes from Jerry Driver because they're bonkers.
Yeah. Like... He literally says he read Stephen King and he had black fingernails polish.
He was the guy. Like, he's the killer. He did it because he reads scary books and paints his nails dark colors.
And he just, like, and there's, and again, I am going to use Damien Eccles' book as well as a couple of other sources for the next part.
Mm-hmm. and we'll get way further into this because it's crazy.
Yeah, this is insane what happened. Yeah, when you see how Jerry Driver... would not leave Damien Echols alone.
Damien Echols literally at one point moved out of state to Oregon and he still couldn't get away from Jerry Driver.
Which is terrifying. Yeah. So this dude was and that was this was all before anything.
And oh, yeah, that was even before him. Like this guy was hell bent on getting Damien behind bars.
And when this happened, he was like, here's my chance.
And it was like the perfect. Yeah. Perfect storm.
Perfect one. So on May 7th, Officer Steve Jones, who is working, a juvenile officer working with Jerry Driver, interviewed Damien Echols.
And I even forgot to mention that Jerry Driver used to drive around West Memphis and he would look for cult meetings taking place.
He would drive around on like full moons because he was like, that's when they do it.
So homie was a witch hunter. Like he legitimately.
Like legitimately a witch hugger. I thought you were going to say hugger.
He was definitely not a witch hugger. He was just hugging witches.
No, a witch hunter. He would also... He had, like, a list of...
Like teenagers around that he thought were involved in satanic activity and Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin and Jesse Miskelly were all on that list.
Why was Jesse Miss Kelly on the list? I have no idea.
We'll get to that later. Yeah, we'll get to it.
But, like, it's very... It's insignificance that holds him into that list.
What happened to this man? I don't know, man.
I feel like he was a former pilot. Okay.
Yeah. It just seems like when you pilot planes, shouldn't you be like a little more with it?
Yeah. I feel like somebody that he loved left him and joined the occult.
Yeah. Yeah. And he was like really pissed off about it.
Something happened because he was really into him.
So they questioned Damien Echols. They questioned him about the murders three separate times between May 7th and May 10th.
Okay. They questioned him twice at the mobile home where he lived with his parents and once at the police station.
Mm-hmm. He said, and he never changed it, he was like, I was at home on May 5th all night.
His mom backed him up. He was like, I was not out at Robin Hood Hills.
And he said, I talked on the phone with two friends in Memphis that night.
Okay. Like, who can back that up? Like, look at my fucking phone records.
Yeah. Soon it looked like so they're still now Jerry Driver is going to become obsessed with getting him behind bars.
And it's so upsetting. It's to the point now where they, you know, days are passing.
They're starting to get into a month. They don't have any leads.
Nothing is panning out. The Vietnam vet thing is not happening for them.
They're not finding anybody like that. Right.
And it's starting to become an issue. And the community is starting to be like, what the hell are you doing to get this person or these people who did this to these little boys? right so now the police are getting desperate they're specifically gary gitchell is getting desperate And remind me who Gary Getchell is.
Gary Getchell is the lead investigator. So this becomes the beginning of the end when it comes to Damian Jason. and Jesse Miskelly.
And it's a straight up fucking witch. It's a witch hunt.
It's essentially a witch hunt. It really is.
I mean, again, we're gonna present all the facts right there are certainly things that do not look good for damien at times but I mean, you take what you want from that, but I'm going to present all of it.
I think you might come up with how I feel, which is... that they are innocent.
But I just want to make something clear.
In the beginning, I was like, we're not going to state our opinions.
I meant on religion or politics. With the case, we're totally going to state our opinions yeah i just don't want anybody being like you didn't you said you weren't going to and now you are yeah no we're like when it comes to religion or politics we're going to state the facts We're not going to go further with it.
Right. Again, this was a very which we are.
And I think that's going to be more pertinent for part two for us because we're going to get more into. why damien and jason and jesse were picked specifically damien and uh jason especially And, you know, religion plays a big part in that.
Damien was a self-admitted Wiccan, which in West Memphis at that time.
They were like, you love Satan. You're a witch.
You're a Satan worshiper. That's all it was.
Like, he couldn't even begin to explain himself.
Which sucks. And again, we're going to go all into this in part two, and that's going to be really intense and really awesome and scary and terrifying.
But we're going to stop here. So they have started to interview Damien.
They are getting desperate. And shit's about to go down.
Next week. Next week. So join us for part two of West Memphis 3.
And in the meantime, you can hit us up on Instagram at Morbid Podcast.
Follow us on Twitter. A Morbid Podcast.
Join the Facebook group. Morbid colon A True Crime Podcast.
Send us a Gmail. Do it. Morbidpodcast at gmail.com. donate to the patreon and look out for a bonus episode uh this week most likely that's right patreon.com morbid podcast we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep Keep it weird.
I don't want to do one for this one. Not so weird that you're a goth who gets arrested for no reason.
Yeah, don't keep it that weird. And don't be so fucking weird that you're a witch hunter who goes fucking driving on full moons looking for kids just having fun, most likely.
There you go. You had it. You had it in you all along.
I did. Bye. Bye. Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.
Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
