We recommend always following the safe sleep guidelines.
In the spirit of reconciliation, Dr Fallon and Dr Law acknowledged the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the continuation of cultural, spiritual and educational practices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
They pay respect to their elders past and present and recognise that sovereignty was never ceded.
Parent questions have been coming through thick and fast during the Christmas and New Year holidays.
So, on Parent Request, in this episode we dive into how to adjust nap lengths, how to choose a settling approach for a new baby when you already have a toddler in the house, how to reduce the number of overnight feeds and what to do when your baby only settles for one parent.
That's so common.
Yeah.
Plus, we discuss our big plans for 2026, including a huge expansion of our clinic services, so more families can enjoy easier settling and more restful nights with their little ones.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sombel Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us.
I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and this is Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia.
Laura, this is so weird.
We are recording in the same room and I can turn and actually look at you.
It's so weird.
And I was just saying we're creatures of habit.
So now we've changed things up.
We're both getting a bit, I don't know, just starstruck by each other.
Yeah.
Where do I look?
What do I say?
I've got a laptop on my lap and I'm on a couch.
It's weird.
Of course, if you're listening in, you're thinking, what the hell are they talking about?
Oh, goodness.
But yeah, we're actually in the same room together because we've just kind of completed our planning weekend working on what that future direction of Infant Sleep Australia and SOMBO and our Children's Sleep Australia clinics looks.
You know the directions that we're going to take in 2026.
And it's pretty exciting, isn't it?
Like it's really nice to sit down and just you know we're always so caught up in the work helping families and then to just sit down, just us, take a breath and go.
Okay, where have we gotten?
Where are we heading?
How do we make this work?
Yeah.
And we've both had that time um, with our families over christmas and new year, and then we've been able to take a bit of a breather and then start this next year with coming together and um yeah, working out where we want to go next.
So, and there's something about the new year that like, always makes me i know everybody likes to set their new year's resolutions and I never really specifically do, but there's something about stepping into a new year that always makes me go what do I really want out of this year?
Like, what do I want my work to look like?
What are my priorities with my children?
How I want to spend my time?
It's so good to take a look at these things.
But look, I would say probably the number one coolest biggest, amazing thing that we want to announce is that from this coming, is it this coming Thursday?
Yeah, January 15th.
Oh my God, that's come around so quickly.
Laura, you are going to be working in our brand new clinic at the Victorian Children's Clinic in Malvern, which is a suburb of Melbourne.
Yes, that's right.
It's really exciting.
So for those Melbourneites listening, it's on Waddle Tree Road, not too far from Cabrini Hospital.
And it's in a beautiful space, which I know our families are going to love.
Yeah, because it's all about pediatrics.
There's 30-odd pediatricians, I think.
Yeah, that's right.
And they've got a new allied health hub, which you'll be based within.
And I just think you know, for a really long time we've been looking for an excellent clinic space where families just walk in, feel at home.
You know, it's like a warm hug.
It's child-friendly.
So you're not thinking, oh, my gosh, I've got to keep, you know, my toddler silent.
There's toys for them.
They can relax, everyone can relax.
Parents can take a weight off.
That's right, you know.
And i had um before christmas.
I went in to meet everybody and i was talking to the practice manager about oh um, you know who who's going to be working in this space at the same time?
I'm here um, because i just want to be um aware of whether the you know, the children are really noisy, for example, and someone's being treated for trauma in the next room and you've got a toddler yeah, screaming at the top of their lungs.
She looked at me like I was mad.
She was like, children screaming.
That's fine.
We're all on the lookout for runners.
Love that.
She goes, that's what our priority is, making sure that none of the children escape.
So come with your crying children and your rambunctious toddlers because yeah, you'll be welcomed with open arms.
So super excited.
It's going to be on Thursdays as our starting point.
And, yeah, we'll look to increase our days even when we need to.
Amazing.
And you'll also be seeing older children there as well, because it is a paediatric clinic up to 18 years of age.
So if you've got older children, you know we run Children's Sleep Australia through there as well for kids 4 to 18 years.
And a lot of people are really surprised.
They're like, oh, do they have sleep problems?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Same problems happen across the lifespan.
It's not like we exit toddlerhood and we're all good and then we turn into adults and it all comes back.
No, that's right.
Yeah, if you've got teenagers who are worried about exams and that's keeping them up or um, teenagers who aren't able to get out of bed until one o'clock in the afternoon and don't go to sleep until two in the morning, or um yeah, you've got a primary school age child with really severe separation anxiety, and that's a common one.
Yeah yeah, worried about monsters and in their cupboards or burglars breaking into the house and things like that.
And often they miss out on school camps, kids with sleep problems, which is such a shame.
And I think parents often feel like there's nothing that can be done about that.
But absolutely, plenty can be done.
We don't want kids missing out on these amazing opportunities.
School camps, I think, are so important for their confidence and building friendship.
Excellent.
Well, hopefully you won't have any teenagers doing a runner from the clinic.
They're much harder to catch.
I might just sit back and, oh, well, I'm here when you want help.
Yeah, but we also because we are embedded there within an existing community of paediatricians and paediatric allied health professionals if we do identify that there are potentially some gut issues, that your baby is having, perhaps some allergies there.
Then there is an allergist who works at the clinic.
There's ENT specialists, sleep and respiratory physicians.
I hope they're ready for us.
Can you imagine that ENT is about to be very busy if they're not already?
Oh, but how wonderful to just we're going to have everybody we need there for families to get everything in one place.
And we are thinking about expanding what services we offer there.
We'll go into that more later, once we really decide on it, but we'll be moving in all sorts of directions.
So stay tuned for sure.
Yes.
And you've got some exciting news about what you'll be doing as well.
Yes.
So, with you taking more face-to-face clients in the Victorian Children's Clinic, I will be sort of stepping back into a role I used to do a lot of.
I'll be taking on new families in the clinic for the first time in.
I actually think it's been a couple of years, one or two years, something around that length of time.
So I've just been predominantly working on coaching calls with SOMBAL members for a long time now.
But I will be stepping back into more of a clinic role.
So I'll be doing initial appointments with families, which is like a big 50 minute appointment with a full assessment and then follow up appointments as well.
And that's something we get emails about quite a lot.
So if you've been hoping to get in with me for an initial appointment, now's your time.
My books have literally just opened about 20 minutes ago, haven't they, Laura?
We went and turned it all on.
We're like, right, we're going to do this.
So, yeah, it's a unique opportunity because often, yeah, bookings do fill up quite quickly.
Yeah, they do.
So if you're wanting to see either Laura or I directly yeah, don't take too long because that will fill up.
But I'm really looking forward to that change of pace.
It's a little bit scary too.
Yes.
Got to change how I think about the appointments and, oh, yeah, they're not coaching calls.
I can't finish them up at 25 minutes.
No, that's right.
But you're going to be awesome.
It'll be like riding a bike, I reckon.
You're just going to go, oh, yeah, that's right.
I'll have to pull my bike out of the shed and make sure I can remember how to do that too.
Remove the rust.
Yeah.
Oh, goodness.
Well, I wanted to mention something really funny.
Like it was a while ago now.
We had an episode and we were asking for parent hacks, like what helps them when they've got to get up early to get their baby or their toddler up.
And listeners will remember that apparent routine with a great hack, which was to you know, if you've got an espresso machine, make your like, pour your shot of coffee the night before um, so that when you're up at you know 6 am with your toddler bleary-eyed, you can um, add some milk, add some ice, make yourself an iced coffee and just kind of get that caffeine in there so you can kick start the day.
And i just thought this is such an example of it.
Doesn't matter what you say on the internet, someone's gonna hate it.
I thought this hack was brilliant, but on TikTok, someone came on to tell us that no, coffee's a terrible way to start the day and that we all should be starting the day with a nice cup of bone broth.
How do you feel about that, Laura?
Well, I'm not sure that it's going to work for me personally.
I'm not going to throw shade on people that do like to start the day with bone broth.
But I would say that there's not so many bone broth cafes lining the streets.
Generally, it's cafes that sell really nice coffee so yeah I think the demand is there for the caffeine yes there's nothing wrong with a cup of coffee in the morning how i survive oh how funny uh we've had a couple of beautiful emails come in as well laura um i'll read out the first one maybe from katherine who said just wanted to send a huge thank you to you both for your supportive easy to use program it has helped my husband and i get on the same page with our five months old five month old sleep And we've gone from 30 to 45 minute crying settles.
Oh, that's hard.
Yeah.
To just five to 10 minutes of babbling and then off to sleep.
Oh my goodness.
Amazing.
What a change.
Catherine says, I no longer dread her sleeps.
In fact, I quite enjoy watching her babble away and take herself off to sleep.
She says, it's been so nice to listen to the podcast as a new mum.
She says you've helped me sift through the noise around baby sleep and I feel so much more confident.
I'm so glad I found some bell.
Oh, that's lovely.
And we are so glad that you found us, Catherine.
That's really wonderful to hear.
We had another lovely email from Sarah who said I've really appreciated your team's approach to sleep, both in our consult and on the podcast.
You guys strike a brilliant balance between evidence based recommendations and genuinely supporting parental preferences and needs.
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
I'll be recommending the pod and program to my patients and to other medical mums.
Oh, I was so happy when we got that email from Sarah.
It's so lovely.
But what it really highlights is you can be incredibly qualified and very intelligent, really capable person.
But
It's.
I mean, we're going to talk a bit more about it today, actually aren't we in answering some parent questions?
There are a lot of noisy people out there who really come across like they know what they're talking about.
And especially when you're vulnerable and really tired, it's really easy to fall into the trap and to be alarmed by what they're saying.
And then you start reading or watching more and more and more, until you're just absolutely convinced of something.
That could be entirely untrue and it happens to the best of us.
So yeah, if you're a mum out there or a dad who has fallen into that hole and found your way out again, I'd just be really proud of yourself for finding your way out.
Absolutely.
Some people don't, do they?
Yeah.
No, it's amazing.
Thank you guys for that feedback.
It's really beautiful.
We also had Min and Megan who were kind enough to, both of them bought us five coffees.
I love it when they just like have all the caffeine.
No one's buying us bone broth either.
No, they're not.
Thank you for that, guys.
We don't want bone broth.
But it's just so lovely.
I think it was Min who mentioned that she has recently returned to work.
And on returning to work, she was like right, I can afford to buy them some coffees now, which is just such a really like a lovely thought.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, she said that she had sworn to herself that when she returned to work and was earning money again, that she'd buy us coffees to say thank you.
So thank you so much, Min.
That was really thoughtful of you.
We really appreciate it.
Yes.
And thank you, Megan too.
Absolutely beautiful people.
And I think we have to almost issue a little apology.
Mostly from me.
Sorry, everyone.
There have been a lot of parents very patiently waiting to have their questions answered.
I think some of these questions we're answering today were sent through on the 8th of December.
So it's been just over a month and we're really sorry about that.
We were absolutely slammed before Christmas, weren't we?
It was just crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah, lots of things were happening, lots of moving parts, and we can only do our best.
And part of our future planning is going, okay, we need more support.
Yes.
So hopefully that will change this year.
We'll get on to your questions, you know, in a little bit more of a timely manner.
And I've said to you, Fallon, it's all right.
You clock off.
Don't worry.
I'm going to reply to those emails.
I just didn't get to them.
Oh, my goodness.
So, yeah, big apologies, everyone.
So what we're going to do in today's episode is answer questions that came through in December and in the first few days of January.
And if you're listening and you get to the end of listening to these questions and yours isn't there, don't worry, because we're going to be recording another episode next week and we will answer your questions then.
Yeah, we're going to play catch up a little bit.
OK, so our first question is from Megan or Megan.
She started Sombel when her daughter was seven months old and waking up to seven times every night.
She writes that she is thrilled to share that she now sleeps through the night and settles easily for naps.
It's been truly life changing.
Oh my gosh, i cannot even if someone woke me up seven times per night, i'll be cross.
Yeah, i'll be more than cross.
Yeah, you've done so well, megan.
Yeah, well done, um.
So megan's question is about starting daycare in february.
Um, so her baby um, will be starting daycare and megan's anticipating that she'll be catching every bug And perhaps needing extra sleep when she is unwell.
And she asks us how she will know if her baby needs extra sleep, when she's unwell and when it's OK to just continue offering the same amount of sleep.
Yes.
Love this question.
So look, I would say, if it's a minor cold, nothing too serious, which most daycare bugs hopefully, will just be minor ones.
You probably don't need to change anything about that daily rhythm.
You don't need to add extra sleep.
I'd probably try and keep things on track.
It's probably more when they're running a fever, they're vomiting.
You're just seeing that really strong lethargy.
That's when I would allow them to sleep. a little bit more, but I wouldn't go overboard.
I've seen families where they're like, oh yeah, they had a fever.
So they had a four hour nap and I'm like, oh, that's a lot.
Yeah.
When they only normally have 30 minutes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So look, we can't give you, you know, a crystal clear answer, because it so depends on what kind of bug it is.
And you're just going to have to use your judgment, I think, as a parent, as to whether they need a little bit of extra sleep or whether you're okay to just keep keep pushing on.
Yeah.
And it may be that you bring bedtime slightly earlier or let your little one sleep in for half an hour extra in the morning and just see how they go.
It's a bit like when you're sick yourself.
Sometimes you want to go to bed early and other times you're just happy to sit on the couch and watch something for a little bit and be a bit quiet.
Megan also wanted to know if we have any suggestions for accounts to follow that are aligned with our approach and whether there are any sleep or parenting books that we recommend in particular.
This is a really tough one to answer.
I know that Megan mentioned.
We've already suggested Sleep Doc Shelby, That Sleep Doc and Sleep Doc Mer.
Those three are absolutely excellent.
Those three, obviously us.
We're quite good.
I am so selective.
I will not recommend something until I have vetted it to the nth degree.
I haven't been really into the parenting book literature for a long time, to be completely honest, because my kids are that little bit older.
I don't really feel confident suggesting any particular book, unless it's something by maybe, Jodie Mindell.
Yeah.
She's amazing.
I would say...
That sleep doc is a really good one for stuff about children's sleep science, baby sleep science.
Sleep doc Shelby and sleep doc Mer tend to focus a little bit more on.
They have a bit of a focus on women's sleep actually.
So I think that's really important as parents or adults, not necessarily just women but, you know, protecting your own sleep as well.
So look, I'm going to have a think on this and I'm going to do a bit of an explore, and I will definitely get back to our listeners if I find more that I'd like to recommend off the top of my head.
I can't really think of anyone.
No.
And look, we tend to look at the academic literature rather than like popular books that you'd find in Big W.
Yeah,
And look, I'm just thinking too, it can't even just be based.
It's so challenging in this field because I came across someone the other day.
Actually, somebody did send me one of their videos and was like, what the heck are they saying?
They are extremely highly qualified authors.
And spouting really alarming nonsense.
I won't name them.
I will show you later, Laura.
But so alarming.
And I think we're going to see this happen as –
It becomes harder for highly qualified people to make a living telling the truth.
There are going to be some that are suckered into saying alarming things to get clicks, to get attention, to get fame on social media.
Yeah.
So that they can flog whatever it is they're selling.
It's usually something that they're selling.
Obviously, we also sell stuff.
That's how we make a living.
It's impossible to make a living in sleep research at the moment.
Yeah.
But I think there's a way to do it that is... the right way, an ethical way.
And we are always considering, are we walking the ethical line with how we market things?
Are we being honest?
Are we being transparent?
But there will be some experts, very qualified, but they will just say whatever alarming crap they need to say to get your attention, to sell you something.
And usually you can never get in to see them in person either.
That's another thing.
Look, I'm talking about an overseas account.
I think a Just be aware.
I think we're going to see an increase, you know, in people who are doing that because they're desperate.
They need to feed their families and it's no longer profitable for a lot of experts to be able to get clients through the door and a number of political and world kind of reasons that are influencing these spaces right now that we definitely can't dive into.
No, no, absolutely not.
I would just general advice around.
Where you believe sleep advice from is is whether that expert has ever published in the area as in academic published, or has been.
That isn't necessarily always an avenue that's available to everyone, but is at least affiliated with a academic institution where there are people who do sleep research.
Yeah, that's such a good point.
For example, my PhD was looking at parent-child interactions.
My postdoctoral fellowship was looking at sleep and child development.
I would not be able to stand here and tell you what the evidence-based approach is for children who are toe-walking.
Yeah.
Or what are your thoughts on pediatric diabetes, Laura?
Absolutely no idea.
So a real expert will say, I don't know, that's not my field.
They won't just spout something alarming so that you go, oh my gosh, I didn't know that.
I better follow this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So even if someone is a expert of a particular field, if they are an expert in the development of walking skills and difficulties with gross motor skill development in children, then that's their lane.
They aren't necessarily going to be across all of the information about sleep research and infant sleep, just like we are not across gross motor development in a high level of detail.
Yeah.
And we're also constantly learning about sleep.
Our work is never done.
And anyone who's making out like they know everything, massive red flag.
Oh, yeah.
And what the research found 15, 20 years ago.
You know, if that – the way that that research is conducted, or it can't be replicated, or it has been.
Further research has been done which has refined how we understand the previous research findings, then we change what we recommend in clinic.
So science is always about building on previous research findings, testing it, making sure to see that it's a robust finding.
If it's not, why not?
And so if you're following people who are just absolutely stuck in the mud, refusing to budge their opinions about sleep interventions or just our understanding about just the biology of sleep, that's a red flag.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
Wow.
Didn't we go down?
Yeah.
Megan's like, well, I just wanted to actually need all of that.
Get us talking about these sorts of things and we cannot shut up, which is unfortunate because we've got a lot of questions to get through.
Let's move on to Grace B.
Grace has a 10-month-old who's been a very unsettled sleeper since birth, with frequent night waking.
She's tried two sleep schools without success and carries a lot of guilt from being encouraged to persist with padding and responses settling using an unrealistic schedule.
Her baby needs about 11 hours of total sleep.
Goes to bed around 745 to 8pm, wakes at 6 to 630am, has two 30-minute naps and can settle independently at bedtime.
He now sleeps about two hours initially, but then wakes every one to three hours overnight and struggles to resettle, often escalating, despite her reassurance.
Night feeds are down to one, but unwanted co-sleeping has crept in out of exhaustion, and Grace is wondering whether the sleep school experience has contributed to his ongoing night waking and what Sombal approach might help now.
Oh Grace look, you will be in very good company in our community of parents with a, having had this experience of persisting with one consistent settling approach, which didn't quite result in the changes that you expected, because the daily rhythm wasn't quite right.
And that is a missing piece of the puzzle often.
So I just want to reassure you that you won't have traumatized your baby.
It sounds like from what you described in your longer email that you were patting your baby consistently.
You were being really responsive.
You weren't just popping your baby in the cot, walking out of the room and not going back until morning.
Yeah.
So I just want you to try to let go of that guilt.
You haven't done anything wrong.
You would have had a really bumpy time and I'm sorry that you had that experience.
But you haven't harmed your baby and it doesn't mean that you're not going to be able to see major improvements when you try again.
So I think well done that you're down to one feed a night.
And let's think about how to get you out of the unwanted co-sleeping.
I feel like it's reasonably minor tweaks here too, isn't it?
Yes, just firming up that schedule like it's an 8 pm bedtime, 6 am wake up latest, and then your two 30 minute naps.
That brings you to that total 11, yeah.
11 hours sleep yeah, and just get rid of that last night feed, because sometimes when babies know there's one feed, they just keep waking and waking and waking like is it time, can I have another one?
What about now?
Yes, that's right.
This is one of those.
Yeah, dropping that.
Drop that and then pick the night that you're going to drop that and stop co-sleeping.
Yeah, all at once.
But what approach do you reckon?
Like I'd probably go supported accelerated.
I would go supported accelerated too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you've spent a lot of time doing the patting.
So let's now say, nope, move on to something quick.
And with those tweaks, honestly, Grace, you'll be across the line in no time.
Because they're comfortable in their cot.
They've had so much experience falling asleep in their cot.
They're not scared.
They're not worried about being there.
It's about taking that next step and saying, you can do this.
I've got you.
Building their confidence.
So good luck.
Let us know how you get on.
Yeah, absolutely.
OK, we've had an email from Lara, who's in the UK and she has a baby who sleeps really well overnight about 12 hours with one feed.
Her baby can self-settle at night, sometimes just with a quick cuddle.
But the struggle is with naps.
So Lara and her partner are stuck in a contact napping pattern which just isn't sustainable for them anymore.
So dad can get the baby to sleep easily for the naps.
She settles without feeding for him.
But Lara can only settle her for her naps with feeding and then transferring her to her cot later, which then results in her waking up after only 40 minutes.
Whereas with the dad, she'll sleep, she'll link a cycle.
So Lara says that attempts to move away from contact naps have resulted in prolonged crying.
And Lara is subsequently feeling really frustrated and stuck and wants to know how to break this contact nap cycle, especially when her baby will settle for dad but not for mum.
Tricky one look, i would say.
One of the things i often suggest to families in this situation is if your baby will nap in the pram, then you're just going to do pram naps for a week or even two weeks, just get out and about or car naps, so they're forgetting that they're sometimes held all the way to sleep.
Yes, and they're practicing even in the pram.
If they're laying flat, it's so similar to settling in the cot, except there's a bit of movement.
So that can really help.
It just gives you a break.
You're not worrying.
I do not care if this baby only has 40 minute naps, two 40 minute naps or how old is the baby again uh, she doesn't say.
It doesn't say oh okay, However many 40-minute naps you need to get through the day, it's totally fine.
It's just something you have to go through.
When you go to work on cot settling for naps.
Often naps are really short, but once they get a bit more practice they'll start to link their sleep cycles in the cot and maybe they'll extend those naps, if that's what they're actually needing.
Not forgetting that sometimes when they contact nap, they will take great long naps, not because they need them but because it's warm and comforting, and sometimes that can start to impact the nights.
So that's how I would start it.
I do a lot of practice in the pram or the car, so that holding to sleep is becoming a thing of the past.
And then I would replicate your approach at night in the cot, when you're feeling ready, and just persist until you get that nap happening.
It might be worth doing some tweaks to the daily rhythm as well to make sure sleep pressure is definitely high enough when you go to put the baby down in the cot.
Yeah.
But look, I think that's a good starting point.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, and be mindful of not bringing bedtime too much earlier on the days where your little one is only having the two short naps.
So, yeah, get a really firm idea. of what the sleep need is.
Yeah.
I'd work through that unique sleep needs chapter, have a daily rhythm that absolutely fits their sleep needs.
Because I feel like that's so often the problem.
There's not a strict daily rhythm in place.
And so they go to make changes to settling, changes to settle.
Everything gets really, really wobbly.
And suddenly you've got a baby with low sleep pressure.
You're trying to settle them.
It's a nightmare.
Yeah.
Everyone's upset.
Everyone's upset.
We're all crying.
Yeah.
All right.
Clara has a four-month-old with a 12-hour sleep need and has recently started introducing the quick fade approach.
She wants to know in step two whether the de-escalations in patting and humming occurs during each settle.
Ah, like 10 pats, then nine, then eight, or on sequential settles.
I'm thinking about this as I'm reading it.
She would also like to reduce night feeds from three down to one, but is finding it hard because she wakes every three hours and will only settle with feeding.
Is this just a phase that will pass on its own or should they try harder at cot settling overnight?
Would ensuring her baby is awake after the feed before being put back in her bassinet help?
Yes, is the answer to that last question.
Yep, we've done that one.
Tick, tick.
And I would say that what's potentially happening is your baby is still waking, frequently overnight, because she's still falling asleep with pats, which then
She's waking up.
Yeah, where's the patting?
So look, I think it probably comes down to your baby's temperament as to exactly how you wean off the patting.
So what often I would suggest is that you might pat 10 times and lift your hand off four times.
10 seconds and then pat 10 times and lift your hand off for 10 seconds and do that a few times and then just pat 10 times, lift your hand off for 15 seconds, keep the number of pats relatively the same, but you're increasing the length of time your hands are off your baby.
If you've got quite a chilled baby, you might find that you can increase the length of time your hands are uh, off them overnight quite quickly, so kind of within a settle.
But if you have a baby that has a very sensitive temperament, you might actually have to do it over um a number, quite a few nights.
So it might be that for one settle you're just taking your hand off for 10 seconds at a time.
The next night you're taking your hands off for 15 seconds at a time, and so forth.
But it will really depend on your baby's temperament.
Um Yeah, and know that also, if you're finding it really hard to make those changes, perhaps it's going to be easier for you to simply pivot to the supported accelerated approach.
Definitely popular that, isn't it?
A lot of parents do quick fade until they're settling really nicely and easily in their cot and then use supported accelerated to quickly phase out the padding and humming.
It's a quick way to go and definitely something to think about.
Yeah.
Oh, and just on the feeding, you're a four month old.
So you want to go down to one feed overnight.
I would be looking at moving if she's currently on three.
I would think about having two times overnight that you're going to feed.
So perhaps when four hours has elapsed since the last feed.
And then again, do that for three nights and then drop down to just one feed.
Perhaps the first time your baby wakes up after 1 a.m.
But only doing that if your baby is developing well.
You haven't been given any other advice by any health professionals.
Yeah, definitely.
Okay, so Susie has written in.
She has a 14-month-old who's made big progress with sleep.
He needs about 11 and a half hours sleep per 24 hours.
He takes two naps totaling two hours and sleeps from 9 until 6.30.
They've trialled moving him to one nap occasionally, but he simply can't manage the longer morning wake window yet.
He falls asleep in his cot with them sitting nearby and with very little hands-on support.
The main issue they're having is that he predictably wakes up at 2am every night.
They usually bring him into bed because when they try to resettle him in the cot, he often wakes up within 30 minutes.
They want to stop co-sleeping by resettling him in his cot overnight and possibly sleeping on a mattress in his room, and then gradually fading out their presence.
They just wanted to check with us if we think that's going to be the best approach.
Yeah, I think it's a great idea, but I would absolutely push for one nap first, because it's going to make your life so much easier.
Yes.
Because waking every 30 minutes after that 2am I would say oh, sleep pressure's probably a little bit low.
Yeah.
Maybe so often when they've got a lower sleep need like around 11 and a half hours.
They just don't do super well overnight when they're having two hours of day sleep.
So when you drop to one nap, Yeah, try two hours at first.
You just might find that you need to move to an hour and a half total reasonably quickly.
Just something to keep in mind.
But I would plan, when you're ready, do a few days where you've really got lots of distractions, things to keep him awake, so that he just has the one nap and you push him through to his bedtime.
It's going to take a little bit of pushing and, you know, distraction.
Mm-hmm.
But it's going to massively help.
Sleep pressure will be so much higher overnight.
When you're trying to resettle him in his cot, it's going to go well.
Just decide exactly how you're going to resettle him in the cot.
Keep it super consistent for every settle.
And you'll have a couple of tricky settles, but he'll get the hang of it pretty quickly.
He knows how to fall asleep there.
The sleep pressure is going to be high enough.
He's just going to be cranky.
He's thinking, why aren't you taking me into your bed like normal?
And he's going to have a big opinion about that.
But, you know, you're there.
You're supporting him.
It's totally reasonable for him to go back to sleep in his cot.
Yeah and, by the time, if you do use a parental fading approach at bedtime um, there's a good chance with that higher sleep pressure overnight because he's on the one nap consistently during the day that when he wakes up sees you're no longer there, he'll do his.
Oh, they're about to come back.
They'll be back in a minute because that's the parental fading approach that you've used and um, go back to sleep easily without waking up going oh where are they?
They were sat beside me as i went to sleep and now they're not here anymore and i want to go into your bed.
Yeah, 100.
I think that's great advice.
Nicole sent in a question.
Oh, she sent that through, I think maybe on Facebook DMs.
So anyone listening in, try to email us.
So often we miss messages on our social media accounts.
So just a little note, definitely send your questions via email.
They're less likely to get missed.
But the lovely Nicole sent us a message.
She has a toddler who is 23 months old who had poor sleep since she was three months old.
She's finally sleeping through the night.
Hallelujah.
But two things are happening that they need help with.
Firstly, why does she wake up upset?
Second, why does it still take up to an hour for her to fall asleep?
She has a sleep need of around 12 hours.
They've pushed bedtime later to around 9 pm to be asleep at 9pm, but she is still fighting sleep taking up to two hours.
We need to say sleep diary for this one, don't we?
Yeah, we do need a sleep diary.
One of the things I'm curious about Nicole, is that you've said that you push bedtime later for your toddler to be asleep around 9pm.
So I'm wondering whether you're pushing.
I wonder at what point you're starting to put your little one down.
Because if you're putting them down at 8 o'clock with the aim of them going to sleep by 9, I would be making a bit of an adjustment and not actually taking them into their bedroom until just before 9 o'clock so that you're bringing that sleep onset time down and also just holding that wake up really steady.
So remember that when we're looking at the overall daily schedule, when we're trying to help little ones sleep through the night,
We're trying to fill this bucket with water, like our bucket of sleep pressure.
And if we aren't holding everything steady, it's like poking holes in the bucket and all the water rushes out and then it's really hard to ever fill it completely.
So make sure that the bedtime and wake up time are consistent, or particularly the wake up time is consistent, and that you're not putting your 23 month old to bed until just before you actually want them to fall asleep.
So you're not spending an hour in there beforehand.
I'd be keen to know too, you know, when parents say, oh, sleep need of around about 12 hours.
I always think, no, what is it?
Yes.
What is the actual average?
Like if it averages 12 hours, great.
So if they're going to bed at 9pm, is your aim to have them up by 7am?
So they've got two hours left in the tank for a day nap?
Or are they not napping anymore?
In which case you're going to do 9pm to 9am.
Right.
Yes.
There's a lot of ways to work it.
Identify exactly what their sleep need is, and then come up with a schedule that fits it.
Stick to it strictly.
And before you know it, you know, if you've got the daily rhythm nailed, you're going to put them down for sleep and they're going to conk out so quickly.
They're going to be out like a light.
But look if it's complicated, Nicole and you want some help.
Laura and I could look at that sleep diary and in about five seconds we'd be like right.
Yeah, this is what you need to do.
This is what you're going to do.
And then we'll be able to answer your question about why she's waking up upset in a more sensible way, because I don't know actually, whether that's waking up from a nap upset in the morning, overnight exactly what's happening.
And it could just be that this is a toddler who hates transitioning from awake to asleep and asleep to awake and hates other transitions like getting out of pyjamas and into clothes, getting into the car, getting out of the car.
Sounds like you're talking from experience there.
It does a little, yeah.
Good.
All right.
Our next question is from Julia.
So Julia listened to an episode of a well-known podcast where a parenting expert claimed that sleep training causes the amygdala to become inactive for life, ultimately causing stress and leading to ADHD.
Yes.
Julia wants to know what's the science behind her claims and should we take her view seriously?
Oh, that's a resounding no.
We won't name and shame.
Laura and I did a little digging on this person.
And, you know, people can make up all sorts of nonsense.
Anybody can call themselves an expert.
I think this one calls herself a parenting expert or something else.
That's not a thing.
No.
It's not a thing.
There are people who have some relevant background, experience or some slightly relevant degree who, like we were talking about earlier, just don't stay in their lane.
They just don't stay in their lane.
And that person is not a neuroscientist.
Saying that a part of the brain becomes inactive for life is just so ridiculous.
Yeah.
They would be health warnings.
But I'm also, I'm not laughing at Julia for believing it.
No, no, gosh.
Because I've seen this and it seems so believable.
Yeah.
And it makes me so furious because these people who have no idea what they're talking about swan in, say something absolutely horrific and then walk away and they will never see the repercussions.
They will never work with those parents who have babies or, I'm on my high horse now.
But they're never going to work with the parents whose eyes are hanging out of the head, whose babies and toddlers have sleep disorders, actual diagnosable sleep disorders, who are just on their last legs, desperate for help.
They're never there to see that.
They have no idea the harm that they're causing, but they usually have something to sell or they're seeking fame.
And this one, I think, just really wants a lot of attention.
I think that podcast host has made some questionable decisions in the past in terms of guests.
It's just such a shame because I get it.
If I wasn't in science, if I didn't know about sleep and I, you know, was a new parent.
Again, I would find it very compelling too.
It would absolutely have tricked me.
Yeah.
You know, what hope have parents got when there's just not?
I think we're just going to see such a rise in like the truth isn't attractive anymore.
No.
Everybody needs more attention than everyone else because everyone's desperate for money.
We're in a cost of living crisis.
People will do unhinged things when they need to feed their families.
I mean, in some ways I'm sympathetic to that.
But, you know, at what cost?
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
Sleep training causes ADHD.
For goodness sake.
Julia, I would put this in the same category as Tylenol causing autism.
Yeah, and it's wildly offensive to people with ADHD because it implies that, oh well, something happened that broke you.
ADHD people are not broken.
No.
They're not broken.
It's a neurotype.
It's a natural phenomenon, part of what humans are.
Yeah like, how dare these people, how dare they?
Oh god, it makes me so furious.
Yeah, it makes me so furious.
And so yeah julia, i'm sorry that you saw that.
I'm sorry for so many parents who would have listened to that very popular podcast yeah, who thought, oh my god, i've been settling my baby in the cot, maybe their amygdala will never work again.
But yeah, it's absolute nonsense.
And one thing we did notice when we looked into this particular person, went to their website, had a look and they are citing a whole bunch of articles.
And you go and have a look at those articles.
Like, oh, maybe have they done some science?
Maybe they have.
No, they're citing all the opinion pieces.
They managed somehow to get published in newspapers.
Not scientific journals.
No, just newspapers.
And when we're talking about articles in the academic literature, we're talking about...
Articles that have gone through a rigorous peer review process and have been published in esteemed – not regulated, but what's the right word?
Peer-reviewed.
Peer-reviewed journals where other sleep scientists have reviewed the work that has been done and determined if that is – has been done well or not and, if it hasn't done well, making sure the author is noting what the weaknesses are and what future direction should be.
So when we say we've published articles, we are not saying we've published opinion pieces in the age.
We're saying we have published rigorous academic articles and this person hasn't.
So um, it's so hard to get scientific papers published.
Yeah, oh god.
Yeah, we go and talk to the heralds on any old day, but um yeah yeah, it ain't gonna change the science anyway.
Anyway, get off our high horse again.
All right Laura, we've got Katie, who writes that their 13-month-old sleep needs have increased by about an hour over the past two weeks and they're struggling to find a rhythm.
She sleeps 7 p.m. to around 6.30 to 7 a.m. most nights with one 4 or 5 a.m. feed.
They've tried a 630 am wake up for a week, but she was so tired she wasn't able to keep her eyes open past 630 pm.
She takes one 90-minute nap or two 45-minute naps, depending on her wake up time and first nap time.
By 5 pm.
She's extremely tired and cranky, but even a 15-minute nap then delays bedtime over an hour.
They've trialed many things each time for a week at a time, as suggested.
Oh, Katie, you're my hero.
I love it.
Just do it for a full week and then you know.
So well done, Katie.
Katie says she's nervous about an earlier bedtime as past trials caused 530 am wakes or a horrible first wake window, but they are open to retrying.
What do we suggest?
Oh, Katie.
Okay.
I think what... First of all, sleep needs increasing is a thing.
We more often see sleep needs decreasing, but there is a minority of children that do have sleep needs that increase.
Potentially, there may have been something going on for your child.
Maybe they were fighting a bug, for example, that meant that they were a little bit more sleepy.
But if you haven't found that there's any explainable reason like that, then let's just say Katie, your toddler is now sleeping a little bit longer.
Wonderful.
At 13 months old, I would give moving to one nap a red hot go again.
I think that that is going to be the key.
And so aiming for that 90 minute nap in the middle of the day.
If she falls asleep earlier in the day and only does 45 minutes, I would just bring bedtime a little bit earlier that night, rather than offering a second nap in the afternoon and ride that out for a week.
So, rather than doing what you're doing at the moment, which is switching between a 90 minute nap and two 45 minute naps, I would make that change.
And if she only has one 45 minute nap at 11am, just get as close to bedtime as you can.
She might go to bed a little bit earlier that night and then wake her up in the morning and try again the next day.
Yeah, it sounds like they're on that cusp between needing two and one naps, and it's always a hard time for parents.
So sometimes we've just got to do a really big push.
I agree.
If you're varying between one and two naps every day.
Sleep pressure is somewhere different at different times of the day, and it's
It's confusing and really tricky.
And I think, yeah, don't go for an earlier bedtime if that brings wake-up time earlier.
I mean, as you say Laura, sometimes it might need to be earlier, if you just absolutely can't get her there.
But try again each day and try to push through.
And often we just need so many distractions and plan lots of busyness, lots of guests to the house.
Yeah, more to play.
It can really help to stretch them out.
I'm a big fan of taking plastic kitchen utensils into the bath or taking the bucket from the – or the water a little mini watering can from the garage into the bath.
Something that's just novel.
Really different.
That's really different and exciting and that will distract her.
And it will pass, Katie.
It feels like you're in the trenches right now.
But before you know it, she'll adapt to one nap and be off and away.
It's just a crappy few weeks to go through.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Who's reading out the next one?
I don't remember.
Your turn?
I think so.
All right.
Helen worked with me for her firstborn, who's now three and still sleeping beautifully.
Well done, Laura.
Round of applause.
We need sound effects.
A little cheer.
I'll see if I can find one.
Maybe I'll edit one in here if I can find one.
So Helen now has a five week old baby who is only rocked to sleep during the day and fed to sleep with co-sleeping at night.
Helen wants to know if she can use the quick tapered approach now or whether she might get better results starting in a month.
She adds that she needs to be flexible, having a three-year-old with her, so cannot be 100, consistent with the approach.
Could that be a problem?
No, you've got a five week old.
Five weeks is still super, super little.
Rocking to sleep during the day, feeding to sleep really, really super normal.
But it sounds like Helen is wanting to work on some cot settling, which is a great idea, because you've got a three year old.
Yes.
Having your hands free is definitely going to help.
I would say at this age the most concerning thing is and people know this about me I'm just really not keen on co-sleeping with really little babies, because it does increase risk.
So I would say you could start with your priority potentially being just to use the quick fade approach at bedtime and overnight, so that They're settling in their cot or even just holding them to sleep, but then putting them in their cot.
And I think you'll sleep better too Helen, knowing that you've absolutely minimized risk and your baby's just getting that bit of practice.
And as they get more and more familiar with being in their cot or bassinet for sleep, it just becomes so much easier I think during the day as well for naps.
They're not shocked to be put down in the cot anymore. they generally do pretty well with that.
So yeah, I wouldn't be too worried if you're not consistent with the approach.
You might just decide what times you you know at this young age group it's about practicing when you can.
Essentially,
Any experience is good experience.
Don't worry if you can't apply the same approach every time, but maybe decide on the times when you will.
So for me I'd be going okay, I'm going to definitely use that approach overnight so that in their cot I get good sleep.
They're going to get used to the cot better.
You know, that's how I would personally do it.
What do you think, Laura?
Yeah, and maybe during the day, think about carrier naps or pram naps, whilst you're also looking after your three-year-old.
And you might pick one or two naps a day where you give the – the tapered approach you go.
But at this young age really how your baby goes to sleep isn't going to be the biggest contributor to them waking up when you put them.
You know, when they wake up somewhere different or they come up into light sleep and they're somewhere different.
Yeah, that's a problem we can look forward to at four months.
But you know, if they hit four months and they've had some experience in the cot, it's not really a surprise or very alarming if you stick with cot settling at that point.
You know, they're like, yeah, I know this place.
I'm okay here.
Yeah, it's a good thing.
All right.
And I think lucky last, but we've got three questions from one case here.
So Maddie and Max wrote in, they have a son who's nearly 12 months old.
They write that they are our biggest supporters.
Wow.
This is it, Laura.
We've met the biggest ones.
I love it.
I love it too.
And they've been spreading the word about SunVal in Alice Springs.
How cool.
I love Alice Springs.
Amazing place.
They have a few questions and we'll just go through these one at a time.
So Laura, their son's current sleep need is 10 hours and 40 minutes.
But a few weeks ago, this was 10 hours.
Is there any reason why his sleep needs would increase?
For example, he has started walking, dancing.
Oh God, baby's dancing is the best.
I want a video.
Yeah.
So he's been going through some pretty big developments.
Yeah.
Look like I mentioned when we were answering an earlier question, most babies sleep and toddler sleep does decrease over time.
But for some, they do have a little uptick in the amount of sleep that they're getting.
For a baby that has a much higher average sleep duration, like 14 or 15 hours per 24 hours, half an hour or 40 minutes here and there, is not a big deal.
But i can imagine, maddie and max, that you really noticed that extra 40 minutes um, given that your little one only had a 10 hour sleep need a few weeks ago.
Um, so look, it could be um just uh, Yeah.
Actually, there's no quick answer.
It's just one of those things.
Enjoy it, Maddie.
Hopefully it sticks.
Hopefully it sticks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Excellent.
They also say he was waking four times a night.
So they switched the naps to two 35 to 40 minute naps, rather than one 40 minute nap and one hour nap.
And they've done that for the past two weeks.
Although this helped reduce night wakes, he's very hard to wake up from his afternoon nap and he is grisly and upset for around 30 to 40 minutes.
Oh, this is sleep inertia.
Should they let him sleep longer in the afternoon, or is this likely to significantly impact his nighttime wakes?
Or is it as simple as pushing his bedtime out and letting him have a longer afternoon nap?
I know in the longer email that Maddy and Max sent, they described that they have experimented with ensuring that they're waking up their little one up at the end of a cycle rather than mid-cycle, because it does sound like sleep inertia, doesn't it?
Yeah.
That he's miserable for that length of time.
So what I would be thinking about doing is either reverting to the nap cycle situation that he had before, which is a short one in the morning and a longer one in the afternoon, and pushing bedtime later.
Or since he's nearly 12 months old, trialing, moving to one nap. and see how that goes.
One big long nap that combines the two naps.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's a good idea.
I think I've talked to a lot of families in clinic about this lately.
Sometimes we come up with a daily rhythm that fits their daily sleep need, but then it just doesn't work for them.
I'm trying to think of the example I had the other week.
I remember you talking to me about it.
Yeah, I think they were doing like an hour nap and then a 30 minute nap and it all balanced out.
The nighttime was just the right length and they were really strictly following the rhythm.
But the baby was so tired waking up in the morning.
And when we talked it through I was like I think that they want a longer night and two short day naps.
So we're trialing that.
Anyway, I'll get back to you when up.
Yeah um, but sometimes it is the case we might come up with a great daily rhythm, but actually what they're needing is something a little bit.
Yeah, so it's good to experiment.
Yeah, so it could be just that maddie and max, your um, 12 month old, does actually prefer to have that longer afternoon nap, um and um.
So you could revert to that and just push bedtime a bit later so that you don't lose the benefits that you um have had in the reduced overnight wakes.
Yep, Yeah.
And finally, they are contemplating changing from the quick fade approach and occasional feeds to sleep to the supported accelerated approach to help reduce the remaining one to two night wakes.
Is this likely to help?
Yes.
A hundred percent.
Definitely.
Definitely.
If there's some feeding to sleep, oh, they just keep waking.
Yeah.
It won't go away until that's stopped generally.
Like not for every baby, but...
Yeah.
And we now know that your baby, Maddy and Max, is able to sleep big, long stretches overnight, sometimes only waking up once or twice, rather than four times.
So we know they're linking their sleep cycles well.
And we have to look at.
Is there some motivating factor there that might be encouraging them to continue to wake, such as those occasional feeds in the night?
And, of course, thinking about whether moving to the one nap is also timely to help drive that sleep pressure up at the start of the night.
Yeah, absolutely.
So thank you so much, Maddie and Max, our biggest supporters.
I love that.
And just a big shout out to all the SOMBAL members who really do live in far flung places.
Like, I mean, Alice Springs is not a tiny place.
There's a community there, but we know there are members who live incredibly remotely and rurally and we form an important part of the community for those parents.
And we really, really value you guys.
It's very tough when you are living remotely.
And we also know we have members who live overseas or a really long way from their family.
And they don't have, you know, a lot of practical hands-on support from family around them.
Anyway, Laura and I have absolutely been in your shoes, haven't we, in our own parenting journey.
Yeah.
So many times where we've not had the support we've needed at the time.
Anyway, I just want to say that it's having an online support network or even just tuning into a podcast.
It is a really valuable way to increase your sense of community.
Yeah.
We're super proud and happy to be able to be part of that for so many families around the world.
Mm-hmm.
So to wrap up, guys, I have all these initial appointments open now.
If you would like to spend 50 minutes with me via Tally Health, so you can be anywhere in the world except not the USA.
I don't know why the insurance companies don't like the USA, but that's how it is.
So no matter where you are, pretty much I can see you.
A 50-minute appointment.
I do a big sleep diary assessment beforehand.
We sit down, we do a big, deep dive into the history of your child, even things like birth medical problems.
We go through sort of everything to get a really good picture of things.
We talk about their temperament.
We work out what are your goals.
And then we figure out what is a manageable practical, useful plan to improve your baby or your toddler's sleep.
That's what you do in the clinic as well, Laura, in Malvern.
And we have Callie and Lauren and Kat as well who do this every day too.
So if you need that support, if you want that really intense, longer appointment where we write the sleep plan for you, we do the sleep diary assessment for you, we give you everything you need to take steps forward and the support that you need.
It's our bread and butter.
We do it every day and we absolutely love it.
So I'll pop a link in the show notes if you're keen to book an appointment.
Go check that out.
And while we've got you, please leave us a review.
Give us a five-star rating.
It makes us really happy.
We've got only five stars on Spotify, I think.
Amazing.
Maybe the bone broth person is going to leave us a one-star note.
Yeah, they might.
But just make sure you've hit subscribe.
It does help us find the right audience.
And if you are heading back to work or you're feeling generous, we'd love it if you bought us a coffee.
Every little bit helps.
Helps us keep doing this important work.
Absolutely.
So thanks, everyone, for tuning in.
And, yeah, we'll be back again.
Our plan is next week, but who knows what will happen.
Thanks, everyone.
Bye-bye.
If you need help with your baby or toddler's sleep or settling, you need Sombell.
Sombell is Australia's first online pediatric sleep clinic program for babies and toddlers aged zero to three years.
It contains all the best resources from the sleep clinics at Infant Sleep Australia so you can rest easy and soak in your child.
To find out more, click the link in the show notes or visit sombell.infantsleep.com.au.
