The advice in this podcast is general in nature and does not constitute medical advice.
Always consult your doctor if you are concerned about your child's health.
We recommend always following the safe sleep guidelines.
In the spirit of reconciliation, Dr Fallon and Dr Law acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the continuation of cultural, spiritual and educational practices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
They pay respect to their elders past and present and recognize that sovereignty was never ceded.
It's one of the hardest bits of advice to give exhausted parents, but it's the gold nugget that can change everything about baby and toddler sleep.
It's the set wake up time.
When you wake your child up at the same time each day, you're giving their circadian rhythm a clear signal that helps shape predictable naps and easier bedtimes.
It's not easy to get up on time after a tricky night, but in today's episode we're going to unpack why it's worthwhile and share how to make it work for your family.
Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sunbelt Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us.
I'm Dr Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia.
Hi, Farrah.
We're back again.
We are, but we have had one hell of a day with various things going on.
And so, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on what our listeners like we are recording this late in the day.
And history tells us that when we are recording this podcast late in the day, we're slightly more hysterical than usual because we have a day of chaos under our belts.
So yeah, we had all these intentions yeah, we had all these intentions of recording this early this morning and then we'd publish it and it would all be great.
And then life happened.
Kids happened now yeah, my kids are inside waiting for their dinner, but they're being quite patient for now.
If you hear a knock on the door, it'll be Yeah, it'll be those hungry tummies.
Yes.
So we best jump in so that we can get through this and get back to our kiddies.
And we've got a really interesting topic today.
I was so pleased when you suggested it Fallon, because I see this a lot in clinic where families come to me.
They've been trying to work on settling depression, their baby um, and it's not resulting in the changes that they would like.
Um or um, they are.
Just they're not working on settling yet um, they're just trying to get the right number of naps, for example, but their baby sometimes has five naps, sometimes has four naps, sometimes has three naps and they just come with their hands in the air saying i just can't do it.
The other babies in mother's groups are all on three naps now and mine's all over the shop and it's just really hard for those families to gain any kind of traction, either with setting this predictable daily rhythm or with working on cot settling.
So, yeah, I think it's a really good one for us to talk about today.
Definitely.
I see it pop up all the time where families are like trying this and trying that, and then I start to like do a little bit of picking apart of what's happening, and so often they'll say yeah, we just have these horrendous nights and then we just like we have a bit of a sleep in in the morning and then, you know, we try again the next day and I look at the sleep diary and yeah, there's a tricky night and then I have a bit of a sleep in to play catch up and then often the day naps are all over the place and then there's another tricky night and I have a bit more of a sleep in, and that can create a bit of a rotten cycle.
But I get it.
You know, if you've had a terrible night, the last thing you want to do is is be trying to get up on time, but it's really important.
Yeah.
So Fallon, can you give me an example of what can happen if children don't have a set wake up time?
Yeah, I have, I have a really good example.
It's a bit of an extreme one though.
So I will preface it by saying um, Don't panic if you feel like you know your kid every now and then sleeps in.
But there's just this one case that really, really stuck in my mind because it was quite a shocking one, and it was about it was probably about five years ago now, back when I used to do home visits around Melbourne and I turned up at this house and it was I don't judge people on their houses
My house is a mess at the best of times.
This house was kind of destroyed.
This toddler had... damaged every wall in the house.
So I was sort of walking in and I was a bit like, oh, something pretty full on is going on here.
And the mum was really, really struggling with her mental health.
She couldn't attend work.
And this toddler, who was actually preschool age and due to be going to three-year-old kinder, couldn't go to kinder because she of a really hideous, massive sleep problem.
So what had happened was this toddler, you know, when they were younger, a couple of years prior, had started to really push back at bedtime and the parents just didn't really have the capacity to, for any number of reasons.
This can just happen to all of us, you know, all of us who were trying so hard.
They didn't have the capacity to push back on trying to keep that bedtime on track.
The bedtime would push a bit later.
Parents were exhausted.
They'd sleep in a bit the next day.
And this had continued, with bedtime pushing later and later and later, and wake-up time also pushing later and later and later for a couple of years.
And this family, this family preschooler was going to bed somewhere between 2 and 4 am in the morning and then getting up at around midday or sometimes as late as 2 pm.
So this is just a really extreme example though, of where it's just being let go for so long, that then parents are so exhausted.
I mean, if I was up with my kids trying to get them to go to sleep till 2 or 4 am, you better believe I'm not going to be able to get up at 7 am.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's so horrible, like really, really challenging.
So yeah, the toddler's behavior was quite extreme and there were lots of different factors really influencing what this family was going through.
But from the mum's perspective, she was like, sleep is the crux of this difficulty.
We've got to get it back on track.
And in that case that child has what we call delayed sleep-wake phase disorder, where the whole sleep pattern is pushing way too late and it's having a pretty serious impact on the family.
So that case really stuck in my head because it was such an extreme example not one we see terribly often, but one where it had really impacted every facet of that family.
But what it does is it kind of highlights that you know if we don't have a set wake-up time each day and you know there is a random tricky night.
We all have random tricky nights, even as adults.
We have to get up on time in the morning because we need to show our circadian rhythms or we can't afford to be awake a lot overnight.
So it's a similar advice you give adults with insomnia is if you have a tricky night, still get up on time, have a big dose of bright light.
And we want to do that with our babies and toddlers as well, so that we're showing their circadian rhythm.
You know, this is how we operate here.
But maybe we could dive into that a bit more, Laura.
Why is a set wake-up time just so important for the circadian rhythm, especially in the baby and toddler years?
Yeah, so having a set wake-up time really kind of pins the day in place.
It works as a signpost, if you like, to the circadian rhythm, that the 24-hour clock has now started, if you like, and this is when all of the different processes in the body's kind of start from.
So when we have light hitting our photoreceptors in the back of the eyes at a predictable time every day, that sends a signal to the master body clock in our brain that sets off a whole cascade of processes throughout the body across the 24-hour period.
And when we're who are still having naps in the day.
We're also thinking about how that sleep pressure builds across the day.
So having that predictable wake up time, the predictable start to the circadian rhythm, helps the whole day fall into a relatively predictable rhythm.
If we don't have that predictable wake-up time in the morning and it's just drifting.
So some days it might be eight in the morning, some days it might be six, other days it might be nine.
Then the whole day drifts because every morning when your baby or toddler's brain sees light for the first time in the morning, it's happening at a different time.
And so the body clock's going, oh okay well right, I'll start that cascade of processes now, which means that by bedtime, all of those bodily processes are happening at different points.
So if you're trying to stick with a similar bedtime, your baby's body isn't necessarily going to be ready to go to sleep because it only woke up.
The circadian rhythm only met that signpost at 9 o'clock that morning, whereas the day before it might have met that signpost at 6 in the morning.
Yes, it's like their body clock's just trying to constantly adapt, thinking oh, maybe this is wake-up time.
Oh, no, maybe this is wake-up time.
And I think that's – yeah, it's so challenging.
I know I'm one of these people where –
I'm really sensitive.
Like if my sleep is disrupted, I wake up really early or sleeping a bit longer.
I really feel it in my body.
Like I can feel quite nauseous if I've been up a bit too late.
And you know, I wish I had a bit more time to sit down and study the circadian rhythm more, because they're learning so much about the way every single cell in your body works is kind of orchestrated by the circadian rhythm all the processes of your body.
We often think about it as just sleep, but it's calories and it's absolutely every process in your body.
It's so interesting.
It is really fascinating.
And what we find is that for babies and toddlers, and actually all of us, for humans in general, who don't have a relatively predictable wake-up time in the morning,
There can just be pockets across the day where sleep pressure isn't, or for little ones it might not be high enough at the point that it would suit you and your family for them to have a nap.
And then it will be too high at other points where you need to be doing school pickup for the older kids.
So, thinking about adults, it might be that when you need to be really alert in a meeting but you've got really high sleep pressure because You woke up so early,
It's that 3 p.m. meeting, isn't it?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Every time.
That's the one I get dozy in.
But I think that's really key is like if sleep pressures at different points at different times every day and it's wobbling around everywhere, you are going to have a hard time settling your baby because it's not predictable when they're going to really be ready for sleep.
Yeah, it can make it so hard.
So, Fallon, how can parents choose the right time wake-up time for their baby or toddler?
Yeah, so definitely, I mean, a lot of our listeners are SOMBAL members.
So if you're a SOMBAL member, be guided by the unique sleep needs chapter.
So you're going to work out what your baby or toddler's unique sleep needs are.
Start to work out what a good daily rhythm would look like and that might kind of dictate what you're going to go with for the wake-up time and what's sort of a reasonable expectation for your baby or toddler.
But if you're not a member and you just want a bit of a guide, I would say you want to choose.
Probably, as a start point, choose the average wake up time and stick to it.
So if they're waking somewhere between 6am and 7am you know it's fluctuating by an hour you might just say okay, I'm going to wake them up by 630am latest every day, give them a dose of bright light at that time and give it a week to see if that really helps the day, to kind of regulate.
And a lot of parents will say that's kind of life-changing.
But maybe Laura, can you talk us through what should parents do if they wake earlier than the set wake-up time?
Because I know a lot of parents are always like but what do I do if they wake at?
You know 530 am and it's not wake-up time yet.
Yeah, well, first of all, don't panic.
And secondly, think about can you resettle them until closer to the wake-up time?
And if you can't resettle them, then...
What I want you to be thinking about is avoiding any bright light or playtime.
So keep it dark and boring so that your little one doesn't see the light, so it doesn't kick off that cascade of processes really early in the morning.
If you can...
I would suggest avoiding the first feed of the day until as close to wake up time as you can get.
Because also when those calories first go into your baby's body again, that is telling the circadian rhythm to wake up.
It's acting like a signpost.
Let's get started.
Yeah, that's right.
And secondly look, if you are finding that this is happening regularly consistently, that they're waking up earlier than your set wake up time, then I suggest reassessing whether that wake up time is the right time for your little one.
And you may need to move that wake up time a bit earlier.
Generally, I don't ever suggest waking up before 6 am, apart from those people in far North Queensland that I sometimes talk about who are very happy with 5 am wake ups.
So if your baby is waking up before 6am and so you can't move wake up any earlier, then think about whether there are other aspects of the daily rhythm that you might be able to alter, such as bedtime or the number or duration of the naps.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point, good sort of guide on what to do.
I do see a lot of parents who um, just go, oh well, they're awake at 5 am and they're wide awake, so we just have a feed and then i see if they have a dose and i 100 get why you would do that.
I'm i don't make great decisions at 5 am.
No, i probably had my kids a bag of lollies.
If they don't hurt me, stay quiet.
But you know, if you're really struggling with sleep a lot then yeah, trying to avoid that feed until their actual wake-up time can really really help.
Yeah, and it may be that you need to sit in their bedroom with them and perhaps you could sing some songs that aren't the head shoulders, knees and toes type song.
But you know, you might sing some gentle songs or get a a gentle book that you might read with them, but nothing that's going to get them energised and excited to start the day.
So you don't have to leave them sitting in the cot and you beside them, for example.
You can take them out of the cot and have them sitting on your lap.
But generally, you don't want it to be light and stimulating at that time.
Yeah, 100%.
So what if parents don't have a set wake-up time for their child, Fallon?
Yeah, so some parents just don't want to.
They just go, no, I don't want to have a set wake-up time.
I want flexibility.
And that's perfectly fine.
And the reality is you know some kids, no matter what you do babies or toddlers they'll just fall into a similar pattern each day and you don't even really have to give it any thought as a parent.
You might just find your baby or toddler wakes at the same time.
It's fairly predictable.
The days are okay.
The nights are okay.
And you don't really need to kind of bring about like some structure to the morning, because they're just sort of naturally doing it or they just don't seem to need it.
But there are definitely babies and toddlers where parents really have to insert some structure to the morning and have that set wake-up time just to build in some predictability to the day, because they find that with their babies and toddlers, if they don't, it's a wild ride.
It's up and down.
You know naps are hard.
Don't know if they're going to settle for a nap or not.
Don't know if bedtime will go to plan or take two hours.
It's just everything gets so thrown out of whack.
So it's, yeah, definitely a case of, you know, parental preference.
And I think parents know better than anyone whether or not having a set start time for every day is going to be something that is useful for their child.
It's something you can try out and just see how you go.
I think.
What I really want parents to know though, is there are times parenting babies and toddlers where you just don't get what you want.
And what I mean by this is like so often in clinic we'll see parents who are like right, I want my child to wake up at 7 am or sometimes even 8 am.
And they're like, I need you to help me do this.
This is the time they need to wake up.
But then we'll have a look at the diary and I sort of have this dawning realization of oh my gosh, there's no way this child can achieve this.
And that happens.
Like sometimes we... you know, have ideas about how we want them to sleep.
But if what you're asking is just exceeding a child's capacity, if maybe they don't have a really huge sleep need and to have a wake up of 7am, they're going to have to have a really late bedtime. sometimes we just don't get to have a say in how these things work.
So if you do find that you've got to have this early wake up time that you're not a fan of, but it's helping their sleep at nighttime, it's helping their nap times.
Just keep in mind that it might be something you have to do for a little while.
And then once they're a little bit older, it won't be as important as it is right now.
And you might find that you get um you know a bit more flexibility, like when, when toddlers go and drop their nap.
Often they have some great long stretches of sleep overnight and the start time for the day changes a lot at that time.
Um yeah, but i always say to parents just remember to match what your child needs and you'll have a far easier time with settling, you'll have better nights.
It's better to do that than to try and force something that suits you and then just having the worst time ever with sleep for months and months.
Yeah, Because sometimes with parenting I remember thinking this with my first, like when I was struggling.
I can't remember what I was struggling with now, but I had this moment where I just thought I just have to surrender to this.
This is not a variable I can control.
And by trying to control it, it's not helping.
I just need to go, okay, it's going to be like this for a bit.
And sometimes there's real power in that.
You know that's.
It's sometimes just the most powerful thing you can do is go okay, this is this is just what I've got to do for now.
Yeah.
And often we find that babies and toddlers are more larks than owls.
And so you know I will see sleep diaries where the baby is waking up consistently at six or half six in the morning.
And then mum or dad is doing everything in their power to try to get their little one back to sleep.
So they're rocking, they're co-sleeping, they're giving bottles, they're sitting on the recliner with their baby or toddler on them, just to try and get an extra bit of sleep in the morning, to get through till seven or eight, whatever time that they would prefer.
And as a person who likes sleep as I'm with you, I hate waking up early.
I'm not a morning person.
But then I think, well, your sleep's disturbed already.
You are awake and your own sleep is broken from 630, and it's then taking so much time for you to try and get an extra sleep cycle or two from your little one, that you're starting the day on the back foot.
Whereas if you kind of surrender temporarily, you know, until maybe they've dropped some of their naps or they're a bit older to that 630 wake up, then you can think about putting them down for their naps a bit earlier or bringing bedtime earlier and having more time to yourself in the evening.
Well, that is the perfect segue laura, to my next question for you.
Okay, how can parents make an early wake-up time?
Okay, work for them?
Yeah, this is the thing a lot of parents like.
But what do i do?
Like, how am i?
I'm not a morning person.
What do i do?
Do you have some tips?
Yeah, having been there and done that myself, here are my top tips.
So um, Getting yourself to bed early, I think, is the biggest factor that's going to make those early wake-ups easier for you as a parent.
You want to be on your game in the morning with a baby or child toddler to look after.
And you need to be well rested yourself, which means not compromising your REM sleep, which is what is ordinarily compromised.
If you go to bed late and then you have to get up early in the morning with your little one, who's exhausted their sleep need, you are then missing out on your REM sleep, which means that's your way of processing all of your emotions and all the information that you have um accessed that day uh, which means you're going to be starting off perhaps in a little bit of a bad mood um, so think about going to bed early so you can get all of that sleep in that you need.
Um have a chat with.
If you are in a partnership, have a chat with the other parent and see if you can um take turns with the um early wake-ups um, So perhaps on the weekend, one parent might sleep in a little bit later whilst the other one gets up with the baby.
And then that might be on the Saturday and on the Sunday you switch and across during the week.
If you find it really hard to get yourself to bed early, that means that you can have some of that REM sleep and you're not quite so miserable and grumpy during the day.
Another top tip I would have is get good at preparing the night before.
So set out your clothes, set out your baby's clothes, get your brekkie ready, get all the bottles if you're using bottles sterilized and ready to go.
So if you are having to get up early in the morning and you are not yet adjusted to this, so you're exhausted, at least you've got everything ready for yourself and your little one.
I love that idea because I can't get two brain cells to communicate if I've had a bad night of sleep.
I can barely remember how to operate the coffee machine.
So prepare the coffee the day before if you can, if you have one of those filter coffee machines.
We've got a filter machine.
We don't use it very often, but at times we've set it the night before so that it will brew the coffee and be ready by our early wake-up time.
And that's just amazing because you can just stumble out of bed like zombie your way to the kitchen for your cup, and at least I don't know.
I just feel like you have that first sip of coffee and it's like yes okay, I can do this.
Yes.
Do you know what I do?
When I'm super organised the night before, I tell myself future Laura's going to love this.
And in the morning, when I get up and go into a clean kitchen or an unloaded dishwasher, I go oh, thank you, past Laura, thank you giving thanks.
Yes oh, that's so good.
Oh, my god, if your parents listening will have heaps of hacks and things they do as well.
So please send them in and we'll share them.
Yeah, and listen when you are having that um drink of coffee or um you're feeding your um, your baby um, if you can have that coffee or feed your baby by a window, if it's summertime and you've got natural light streaming in or otherwise, just turn all the overhead lights on.
Play some music.
I also do that.
Put your favorite tracks on um and um.
That can really kick start the day as well.
Have a little a boogie in the kitchen, if you can bear it, just to get your body moving.
That will just um help um Yeah, kickstart the circadian rhythm and make your body know that there's no going back to sleep and it is time to get going.
Yes, and the mornings are so beautiful at the moment.
I've kick-started a little routine that I was doing all last summer where I get up pretty early because I've got to get ready before my kids get up.
But I make my coffee and then I just sit on the back step and the sun's coming up and all the birds are doing their thing, and it's just so peaceful and it's a good dose of natural light coming in as well.
Those little rituals can just feel like such a nice little moment, I don't know, just a nice reset, a nice way to start the day.
And one last little tip I want to throw in there, just on the note of coffee, because I feel like this trips up.
A lot of parents try not to consume caffeine after midday.
So if you're having coffee or tea after midday to try and help, you know, stay awake, it's really likely to make it hard for you to get to bed early.
If that's part of your strategy is getting to bed early because you know you've got to be up early.
Caffeine has a half-life of six hours and people are often shocked to hear that.
But if you have a coffee at midday, by 6pm you've still got half of that caffeine in your system.
You know, by midnight you've got a quarter of it.
So it's, yeah, it hangs around a long time.
So yeah, that can be a good one, just to be across, especially if you're quite sensitive to caffeine.
Yeah.
Good tips there, Fallon.
Yeah, I reckon that was a good little summary of why you should have a set wake-up time.
But, like we said, you know every family is different and you know some babies and toddlers do really like absolutely fine, with a ton of flexibility.
But I'm guessing you're probably listening to the podcast because yours doesn't.
Yes.
Yeah.
You might find it helpful to set that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And how strict do you want to be?
I just want to jump in.
If you are just currently working on creating a new daily rhythm because your baby or toddler's sleep is all over the shop, then be relatively strict.
You know, within 15 minutes, having a wake up time.
But once things have calmed down a little bit, you don't have to be super strict.
But I would still be thinking around about a half hour.
Yeah, variability and wake up again, depending on your baby's sleep need.
If your baby's only got a 10 or 11 hour sleep, need an extra 15 minutes here or there is going to be a lot relative to their sleep needs.
But if you have a baby that's got a 16 or 17 hour sleep, need an extra 15 minutes here and there.
It's not going to make any difference.
Yeah, that's a good point.
You know a lot of parents ask for us, ask us for tips on their own sleep too, and I would say, just as a blanket rule to any adult if you have, you know, if you feel like you're prone to insomnia, like there have been periods in your life where you've really struggled with your own sleep then, just as a rule, if you have a bad night of sleep, get yourself up on time, because that can nip it in the bud and it stops it from you know you have a sleep in and then the next night's tricky.
And this happens to adults as well.
So if you feel like you're susceptible to insomnia, set that alarm clock.
And even if you have the most rotten night Get yourself up, bright light.
It's going to help keep your sleep on track too.
Yeah.
So, well, on that note, let's turn to parent questions that have been sent in.
We've got a nice bunch of questions this week.
Should I start with Elise?
Yeah.
All right.
So Elise has a tiny little four-week-old baby and she's used the quick, tapered approach for settling in the cot for the first nap of the day.
Elise says she fell asleep after three cycles and only slept for 12 minutes and then couldn't be resettled.
So she wonders what our advice would be.
So, Elise, you are just right at the beginning with just that tiny baby.
So congratulations, first of all.
And congratulations.
Yeah, I'd say really well done for getting going on giving your little baby the opportunity to see that they're safe falling asleep in the cot with the patting and the cuddling that you were using.
And don't let this short nap derail you or make you lose your confidence.
At this age, it's all about just finding the opportunities to relax.
Give your baby the chance to see that they're okay in their sleep space.
So what you will find is that as your baby gets a little bit older and you continue to choose naps and bedtime settles where you're using that quick, tapered approach, your baby will get more and more used to it.
But at four weeks of age, there's Your baby.
Won't be having strong preferences yet for how they're going to sleep and where they're going to sleep and where they then wake up later.
So just take it all in your stride.
Don't feel that you need to be really hard on yourself.
It's all good practice and just keep going.
And if you need to have a conversation with either of us, you can book in to see us.
But otherwise, I would say that's really, really well done for getting going early.
Did you have anything to add, Alan?
I just agree that it's all about practice when they're just a few weeks old.
And really quickly, your baby will probably start to do a full sleep cycle in their cot.
So just practice it when you feel up to it.
And I would take that.
Even just that one saddle is a great win because your baby is learning.
Yeah, the cot's a great place to be.
It's really nice.
It's comfortable and it's becoming familiar to them.
And that's terrific.
That's what you want.
Good.
So Bree has written in and she says, thank you again for all your encouragement and advice.
Your podcast and the Sunbelt program have given us so much confidence and reassurance as parents.
Oh, that's really nice to hear.
Thank you.
So Brie says.
Our six month old girl usually gets around 12 hours of sleep and can self settle at bedtime and during the day naps.
Recently, however, she's been waking hourly overnight.
Oh, she now cries until she's picked up and held back to sleep.
She still has two overnight feeds, around 10 and 2, which we'd love to start phasing out.
We're continuing to use a supported accelerated approach, but after about 15 minutes of her protesting we end up picking her up to cuddle and calm her.
She's showing signs of teething, and so they're wondering if that could also be contributing to the frequent wakings.
Bree says should we continue with the supported accelerated settling approach, despite her protesting?
Yeah, it's a really, really good question.
This one, um, I would, I mean, it sounds like a lot of overnight waking.
So my first thought is, I wonder if there's been a drop in sleep needs recently.
So often if they just start suddenly waking up, they're just not sleeping as much.
So just have a look at that daily rhythm.
It might be that it needs tightening up if the sleep needs have started to drop off a bit.
I think about what's happening during those overnight feeds.
So if your baby's being put down, falls asleep feeding and then is put down asleep sometimes around six months, they're really starting to get annoyed and they think well, how come i'm allowed to feed to sleep sometimes and then other times i'm not, and they just start waking up all the time, going where are you?
I want my feed to get back to sleep, so it could be just not even having to necessarily drop those night feeds yet, but even just putting them, putting a baby back down awake after those feeds, can make a really big difference.
So once you're sure you've got the sleep pressure right overnight um, Then I would work on the daily rhythm for a few days if you do need to make some changes.
Then I would say go all in with using that same approach you have been using to resettle overnight.
Teething can impact sleep.
So just use Panadol and Urofen if you think that there is pain happening.
Just try it and then you know, 20 to 30 minutes later it would have kicked in, and if they're, you know, then a lot calmer.
Well, you know that.
Yeah okay, it probably really was pain.
If it doesn't make much difference, then, yeah, it probably wasn't pain after all.
But, yeah, it's a tricky time when they've got teeth erupting and night waking is increasing.
But hopefully that gives you a bit of a guide, Bree, on what you can start to consider.
Yeah, I would think about...
Persisting for longer than 15 minutes as well, Brie.
So I'm not sure whether, when you write that, you pick her up after 15 minutes and calm her in your arms.
So I'm not sure whether you then, if she falls asleep in your arms, or whether you pop her back down and carry on.
So she's held to sleep.
Held to sleep, yeah.
So I would be.
You know, once you, as Fallon says once you've got all of the sleep pressure right you're sure that she's not in pain because of teething then definitely keep going for longer than 15 minutes, because otherwise what your baby is experiencing is okay.
This is weird.
Mum's going to do this funny thing for 15 minutes and then she'll hold me to sleep.
All right, that's what we'll do.
And it's never really giving her the opportunity to see if she can calm herself with you nearby.
And so... course do those cuddles like we described with and the resets as necessary but um continue with the approach until she's asleep um rather than aborting after each 15 minute attempt i think that's really good advice um elise also wrote in is this must be a different elise than the first elise Yes.
I'm guessing you've had a couple.
Yes.
It's the name of the week.
Yes.
Yeah, this one's a bit older, this baby.
Ah, okay.
So this Elise says, firstly, a huge thank you.
We saw you for our firstborn at four months old, and your advice turned our life and his sleep around.
He's now nearly four years old and has slept wonderfully ever since that first appointment.
Amazing.
Elise says Somba also helped us navigate the transition into a big bed smoothly.
So she sends her thanks.
I love it when you hear about like, oh, I saw you with my baby and now they're four.
Like some of them are getting ready to start school.
It's just beautiful.
Yeah.
Love it.
So Elise says she has a question in relation to their 16 week old baby.
She says he's generally happy during the day, self settles quickly for his three naps and at bedtime and overnight has one dream feed and one further wake for a feed.
She says, this wake has recently stretched to one and a half to two hours, during which time he feeds multiple times and cries when he's put down in his cot.
Over the course of about two weeks, he went from needing about 16 hours of sleep to now averaging 11 and a half hours.
Elise wants to know if this is normal.
She also wants to know if we have any suggestions for speeding up this tricky 3 am feed and settle.
Wow, that is a long wake overnight.
Not fun at all.
No, up to two hours each night when he's really unsettled.
That would be really hard to manage, especially when you also have a nearly four-year-old too, Elise.
Yeah.
So I'm interested that you have written that your baby is generally happy during the day.
One of the things that I'm always thinking about when I see a steep decline in sleep needs, like you're describing, is how is your baby functioning during the day?
Have they become miserable?
Are there any physical symptoms that might suggest that there's something medical going on?
Because that is a steep decline. drop over two weeks.
Not unheard of, but you're describing, Elise, that he's generally happy during the day.
If you've got any concerns, I would take him to the GP just to have a quick once-over, just to make sure that there isn't anything happening there.
Just go through the SOMBEL checklist for any medical causes.
See if you can notice any unusual breathing or any changes to his stools, skin conditions et cetera.
But you know, if we just assume at least that he's just had a big steep drop in his sleep needs and he's fine, then it is about creating the daily rhythm that is in line with that lower sleep needs.
So he's also about four months old now.
And that is the time where sleep can get a little bit wobbly.
And, given that he can self-settle, I'd be thinking about altering the daily rhythm, because it sounds like sleep pressure really.
If it's an hour and a half to two hours awake, that's really telling me that the sleep pressure is not very high.
And then he's getting really upset when you put him back down.
When he knows he can't go.
Yeah, he can't.
Exactly.
I know how to do that, but I can't do it right now because I don't have the sleep drive.
I think I can find it really frustrating because I know what you want them to do.
And they're just trying to tell you, I can't do it right now.
Yeah, I agree.
I think you can self-settle.
So it's timing changes are likely to bring it all together really quickly.
Let us know how you go, Elise.
But I think that, yeah, it's purely a timing issue.
So working through that unique sleep needs chapter and working up that daily rhythm, you'll hopefully see a really good transformation, nice and quickly.
Fingers crossed.
Yeah, good luck.
Okay, so Minnie has written in.
We answered Minnie's question about night weaning in the last episode and she's written in with an update.
So they decided to go cold turkey on night weaning.
They're 11-month-old and now they are holding him to sleep.
So well done, Minnie, for weaning off those night feeds.
That's great.
I bet it was tricky.
I bet it was with an 11 month old.
Yeah.
So what Minnie is asking now is whether holding her baby to sleep may be leading to a new sleep association.
She said that previously he never needed any hands-on support to settle.
He just would take the bottle and fall to sleep immediately.
So what do you reckon, Fallon?
Yeah, so sometimes with dropping night feeds, our advice is to just don't offer the night feeds, but do whatever else it takes to get them to sleep without the feed.
So you give them all the support in the world.
And that's what Minnie has done.
She's been holding him to sleep and it's helped to get rid of the overnight feeds, which is great.
And it served its purpose.
What I'd be aiming to do is really quickly get back on track with settling in the cot.
He will still remember it.
He might be a bit cranky when you go to put him back in there, thinking hang on, I was really enjoying those cuddles.
Thank you very much.
So I would choose one of the Sambal approaches for cot settling so that you can be incredibly methodical, predictable and really show him you're okay here and yes, I'm going to persist with this and I'm here to support you.
And I would say, because he has been able to put himself off to sleep in the past, he will likely really quickly get used to cot settling again, and I'd say it should all come together pretty quickly.
But just remember that your predictability, with your approach, the consistency if you're using the same phrase or the same padding, is absolutely key.
If you are doing a few different things and chopping and changing, you know, sometimes picking up, sometimes putting down, sometimes putting jiggling, sometimes patting he's just going to think well, what's going to happen next?
I'm going to keep getting really worked up.
Maybe I'll be taken out of the cot and I will get held to sleep.
So the key is to just pick what you're going to do.
Be so boring and so repetitive.
So he thinks, oh, I might as well just go to sleep because this is dull.
You've got to bore them into it.
Yeah, during the day is the time for playtime and animation and using lots of different intonation in your voice and singing and using rhymes and doing all the fun things.
Nighttime, no.
Nighttime, that playful parent is asleep and just boring, predictable, calm parent is on duty.
Yeah.
And that's okay.
It's a great way to do it.
All right.
And our final questions are from Ella and Alex, who just sent through these questions this morning.
They just made it in.
And there are a few questions here, Laura, so I might just go through.
I think I'll go through one by one.
But Ella and Alex have a four-month-old baby girl who has four or five 30 to 40-minute catnaps each day.
Um, she goes to bed between 7 30 pm and 8 30 pm and wakes every hour from 2 to 3 am until i wake up.
Between 7 and 8 am they feed or rock her to sleep and put her down in her cot when she is in a deep sleep.
And they've got a few questions.
So the first one is um, she says we are starting to do a sleep diary so we can work out her unique sleep needs before starting a cot settling approach.
Oh, that's like golden music to my ears.
You are killing it guys already.
So that glad star, perfect.
Um, Ella and Alex ask when she wakes so frequently but falls asleep really quickly when we pick her up, how do we record this?
Yeah, so I would be.
Um, there's a couple of things you could do.
Um, you could just count the number of times that she's woken.
So if it is hourly, you could say, well, that was five times between two and five.
And each of those was just a couple of minutes each.
And so then you would just go, well, two times five, that's about 10 minutes.
And then just take it away from the total amount of sleep.
Or you could get really granular if you want to.
That's where those apps can be really useful, because you can just press start stop start stop start, stop.
And rather than if you're using the Excel spreadsheet or the paper diary.
It can be a little bit trickier.
Some parents if they are using those, if you are using one of those, Ella.
Some parents will just take screenshots on their phone each time their baby wakes and then goes back to sleep overnight, because then the next day they can use those photos of the time on their phone to then fill out the diary the next day.
And that's important if you're having an appointment with us.
We actually want to see the timing of the night wakes.
When do they happen?
That's really important to us.
So definitely track them if you're going to have an appointment.
Yeah, that's true.
Ella and Alex also ask is she waking so frequently in the second half of the night because of sleep pressure or because she doesn't have the skills to resettle yet?
Ella says she finds it hard to keep her awake longer during the day as she is starting to get cranky and difficult to engage by naptime.
Yeah, look, it's probably a little bit of both, Ella and Alex.
Given that she's going back to sleep so quickly...
It's probably more towards the not yet having the skills to resettle.
Yeah.
But it can be all, yeah, it can be both.
Yeah.
She's doing that systems check and going, where am I?
I wasn't in my cot before and I need to be back in your arms to get back to sleep.
Yeah.
A good idea to work on the daily rhythm.
Yeah, and don't worry about trying – that you're going to do any damage keeping her awake for a little bit longer.
She is four months old and sometimes having five naps a day.
So, even if you can start to – just when she starts to get cranky and you think she needs to go down, if you keep her awake for just another five minutes and another ten minutes you can just – you're not going to break her.
She's out of that newborn stage so – start to stretch her just by a few minutes before you put her down, so you may find that she starts to stabilize at more of the four naps rather than the five naps.
Um, so you don't have to be thinking let's move her, like that nap's not gonna happen for another hour.
Just think yeah, little shuffles yeah, i like that yeah um, and i think as well, we want them cranky.
I think parents are really scared of their babies getting cranky and they try to settle them before they're too cranky, But we actually want them to be grisly and really over it and nothing's making them happy.
That's when they're just ready to go to sleep.
So, yeah, that's okay.
And I love this next question.
When she wakes in the night, she doesn't cry out, but is moving in the cot, trying to suck on her hands and making grunting noises.
So classic signs that she's actually trying to soothe herself.
If she isn't crying out, should they just leave her?
Or if she's still moving around after a particular length of time, do they go to her and help her settle?
Listen, if your baby is fine in the cot she's not crying out to you then I would just leave her be.
Because she's practicing all the right things.
She's trying to bring the hands up.
She's making the grumbly noises.
And that's the beginnings of self-soothing.
Yeah.
And also in littler babies, the kind of grunting is in active sleep as well.
So it can be that she's asleep.
So, depending on how mature your baby sleep is at four months, if she's a newly four month or closer to five months, there may be a bit of difference there.
But certainly for littler babies.
They can be really really very noisy when they are in active sleep with that grunting.
So you don't want to be waking a baby out of sleep, thinking that they are already awake, because then you wake them and then they're grumpy because they've been woken.
They were quite happy, thank you very much.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's it.
Look, if your baby needs you, you are going to know about it.
They're not going to lie there trying to suck it.
They're going to scream.
They're going to cry.
So, yeah, I completely agree with you, Laura.
The next question is their baby's still in a bassinet but will be going into a cot in the next month or so.
Would it be best to wait to teach cot settling until they've made this move or make the move sooner so she doesn't have to relearn when they make that cot transition later?
Yeah.
Look, this is really going to be a parental choice.
There's no right or wrong answer.
They don't even notice at this age, I don't reckon.
No.
They don't care.
Cot, bassinet, they're not fussed.
Yeah.
I would say, given that she is waking so frequently, for your wellbeing, Ella and Alex, I'd probably just start working on it sooner rather than later so that you can – get better sleep.
It's every hour from 2 or 3 am.
That's a lot for you both to be carrying.
So um just yeah, I would.
It's fine, she's so little she won't really mind whether she's.
When you transfer her to the cot, I'm sure she'll be fine with it.
So yeah, probably won't have to really learn anything.
No, she won't need to really learn it yeah.
So yeah, start now.
Uh, after you've worked on the timing for the usual amount of time.
Pick which settling approach suits you best and get going when she's in the bassinet.
And don't worry that she's going to have to relearn it when you move her into the cot next month.
And a final question from Ella and Alex.
And this one's a really interesting one.
And I don't even know I'm going two ways on this.
I'm keen to hear what you say, laura.
Um, it's a question about dream feeding.
So they ask if you're going to do it.
Do you have to do it every night, or can it be ad hoc?
So should they do the dream feed every night or could it just be sort of every now and then?
I would suggest doing it every night At roughly the same time.
I know in the email that it was slightly longer that question, but just because we had a few I just shortened it.
And it was about whether yeah, just when the partner can go to bed, and whether it should be later or the partner should be waiting up to give the dream feed.
I think about a dream feed having a function, as in having a positive function, if your baby then is able to do a good long stretch of sleep before waking again.
So then, we're thinking about just topping up your baby's tummy so that they can keep going until their next feed.
So at this age, they may well be having more than one feed overnight.
If you sometimes give that dream feed and sometimes you don't, then that may have a knock-on effect to when they wake up hungry, which may then have an impact on how you respond to her overnight and whether you go straight to cot settling or whether you give her the feed first.
So I think, look, I also am a creature of habit.
I would be thinking just do the dream feed at roughly the same time every night, just before your partner goes to bed, because that will help the other feeds, if you're doing them, be a little bit more predictable.
But I'm curious now, Fallon, what you would say differently.
Are you going to say have an experiment?
Well, you could.
You totally could because I think every baby is different.
I was just thinking about this and I don't think there's any research really looking at it, but I was thinking about it.
I'm starting to lose my voice.
In terms of the circadian rhythm and whether sometimes throwing in extra calories overnight, you know, a bit more sporadically, might kind of throw around the circadian rhythm a little bit.
Is it like, oh, we do have lots of calories overnight.
Oh, actually, tonight we don't.
I wondered what that does.
Or maybe the circadian rhythm is still a bit too immature to really care too much at that point, at that age.
Anyway, that's just my random thoughts. thinking um yeah and i guess for some families you know they will throw in the odd dream feed and go oh that seemed to help so yeah there's no it's not you know no one's gonna um tell you off if you have a bit of an experiment and just figure out what works best for you but when dream feeds work well they're gold aren't they like if it means you're going to get a six or seven hour stretch of sleep after a dream feed then often it is really worth it and why wouldn't you do it every night yeah but listen um Ella and Alex if your baby isn't then doing a big long stretch of sleep after that dream feed then we know that the dream feed isn't having the right the the wanted effect and therefore i would go to demand feeding overnight and have some framework about following whatever you know depending what's happening with your baby health-wise whether it's every three hours that you feed them every four hours or more than that based on what the um the medical team or your health care team are saying for your little one um but only continue with the dream feed if it's having the desired effect if it's not then you're alex you can go to bed whenever you want This has been such a lovely episode and I love these questions that we've got from parents.
And yeah, if you've got tips on how you manage early mornings with your little ones, do send them in so we can share them with other parents as well.
But to finish up, Sombel is currently on sale.
So, if you are listening in, you're struggling with sleep, with night waking.
Settling is tricky.
You've no idea what the best daily rhythm is.
You don't know when the wake-up time should be.
If all of that's feeling like a bit of a mess, Sombel is a tool that comes in and gives you clarity, peace of mind and confidence.
You're going to have a clear plan.
No more second guessing yourself or Googling at 2am.
That's what it's there for.
And it's currently on sale.
So do take advantage of that if you're needing that support.
We have also launched bundles and this is kind of cool.
Yeah.
Now, when you join Slumbell, you have the option of just adding in a coaching call with your appointment, and we'll be adding other appointment types at other times as well.
So if you're just like I want the program but I also really want one-to-one support, you know you can just book that.
So I typically do those appointments for the babies and the toddlers.
We have Catherine who's our newborn sleep expert who works with the really little babies.
But that's available to you guys now too.
And can I ask a massive favour?
So right now you're tuning in, you're probably using some kind of podcast app.
Can you please give us a five-star review or even write a review?
Writing a review really, really helps us to just be seen and heard by more people.
We get more shares on, you know, I don't know, the algorithm does its thing or whatever.
So please make sure you're subscribed, give us a like, share us with your friends.
It's really, really super helpful.
If you want to go one step further and buy us a coffee, We would absolutely love that.
We will put the link in the show notes.
But just thank you, everybody.
Thank you to our amazing community and for all the lovely feedback that we get.
It means the world to us.
And good luck surviving those early mornings.
If that's currently your battle, you've got this and it does get easier.
So hang in there.
Thanks, everyone.
Bye-bye.
If you need help with your baby or toddler's sleep or settling, you need SOMBEL.
Sombell is Australia's first online pediatric sleep clinic program for babies and toddlers aged zero to three years.
It contains all the best resources from the sleep clinics at Infant Sleep Australia so you can rest easy and soak in your child.
To find out more, click the link in the show notes or visit sombell.infantsleep.com.au.
