I'll see you next time. We recommend always following the safe sleep guidelines.
In the spirit of reconciliation, Dr. Fallon and Dr. Lowe acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the continuation of cultural, spiritual and educational practices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
They pay respect to their elders past and present and recognise that sovereignty was never ceded.
If I could tell new parents one thing, it would be to learn the science for pediatric sleep apnea.
You might think that sleep apnea only impacts older men who snore, but sleep apnea can actually occur at any point in the lifespan in any gender.
And when left untreated in babies and toddlers, it can have a huge impact on sleep quality and your child's broader wellbeing.
Our sleep clinics focus on the behavioral aspects of sleep, but we always screen for sleep apnea and refer on when needed.
So let's learn the four key signs every parent needs to be on the lookout for.
Music Welcome back to Brand New Little People, the podcast companion to the Sunbelt Pediatric Sleep Clinic programs created by us.
I'm Dr. Fallon Cook and I'm here with Dr. Laura Conway and we're the directors of Infant Sleep Australia.
Laura, how have you been? Yeah, I've been good.
Thank you. Yeah, we've been having a busy time between us, haven't we?
You and I. with a clinic and various things happening in our personal lives.
I think you're living in just a tiny little shell of a house at the moment.
Yeah. Yeah. The whole back of my house is currently missing.
So now when I walk out to the kitchen, I can see the stars.
It's a little wild and people who have had a coaching call with me have probably heard a lot of the demo and the hammering and...
Yeah, it has been pretty crazy and the usual kind of sick kids and just busy life.
It has been wild. So, yeah, our episodes have been a little more sporadic than normal just because we have a lot to navigate at the moment.
Yeah, yeah, but we have a lot of questions that we will be answering in today's podcast.
So if you've been waiting for an answer, hopefully you will hear it in today's episode.
And if it has been missed just because of the kind of chaotic nature of our lives at the moment, do just send us a reminder. and we will answer it in the next podcast.
Yes, please do send that reminder because it's my fear.
I always think, oh, my God, what if a parent is waiting for us to answer a question and it's somehow sleep deprived? past us and then they think we don't care we do care we really do care so Yeah, if you haven't heard an answer to your question, please do send it again.
We do our best, but yeah, the admin side of things can get a little bit hectic.
But speaking about emails, we got two really, really lovely emails.
One was from Kath, who sent in the most gorgeous video ever. of her baby settling in the cot.
It's so cute. She sort of is doing this really, really cute little flappy dance where she's smiling and flapping her little arms around.
And Kath was saying that lately her little one's been doing much better on just two naps. each day that that change really, really helped.
So thank you. When parents send photos and videos, oh my God, it makes my day. love it yeah it's so nice to actually seeing the the difference in these children so yes please do share them with us I'm thinking that this is a baby who used to not like the cot and is now very, very smiley and happy in the cot.
So it's really wonderful to see. Yeah, so that was lovely to get that.
So thank you so much, Kath. And I think we had another email that was lovely from, is it Fiona?
Yeah, Fiona, who sent in quite a few questions. and emails over the last little while, sent a really lovely email congratulating us on our 100th episode.
And it's, yeah, it is just so lovely. We appreciate you all so much.
Just getting that feedback, it makes such a difference.
So if anyone else wants to stroke our ego. photos please send through your gorgeous baby photos or toddler photos and um yeah because it is it's so lovely so yeah well shall we dive into this week's topic so this was the topic of sleep apnea kind of came up in our social media channel and a few people were asking questions around what it is and how to identify it.
And I thought. this is a really good topic to go into because even just before this episode started, we were kind of saying, yeah, we We each had friends who had babies and toddlers that probably had sleep apnea. enlarged tonsils or adenoids or really loud snoring and other sorts of signs that really indicate something's not quite right.
But it's just been entirely missed. Sometimes for years, for years, these children have had really significant sleep problems that probably could have been resolved a whole lot sooner.
So do we start with what is sleep apnea?
Yeah, absolutely. Sleep apnea is a disorder where breathing stops and starts during sleep.
Essentially, it's the airflow being blocked in the upper airways.
And the structures of the throat, they may be larger than usual or there may be some other structural differences that result in the airway blocking.
And this can result in poor quality sleep, daytime fatigue, and just general, a little bit miserable during the day.
It can also result in gasping. coughing during sleep, snoring, mouth breathing, etc.?
? Yeah. And that probably brings us onto those sort of four key signs that we really want parents to be on the lookout for.
And these are things that I really think We need every parent to know to look out for these things because these cases so often do get missed.
The first one I think is one of the most important ones.
If you're noticing pauses in breathing during sleep, It is never normal to have a baby or toddler just stop breathing for a period and then begin again.
So I think that's probably one of the ones that if parents notice it, you're probably going to look into it and investigate further. what are some of the sort of common things that you pick up on that parents, you know, saying in clinic, Laura?
Yeah, so snoring or noisy breathing during sleep, including sudden gasping for air.
It's never normal. I know that in our culture we will sometimes describe it as cute or funny. but it actually isn't cute or funny.
And even though we may... Yeah, all normal.
Yes. So I think the reason we think it's cute is because, like you were saying in the intro, we associate snoring with old men.
And so when we see a new baby snoring, everyone goes, oh, that's so cute.
But it's not. So anyone who's been to see me in the clinic will know that's one of the questions I always ask.
Is there any snoring or mouth breathing? or noisy breathing during sleep.
Parents may often say that they sometimes do hear snoring or noisy breathing. whilst their child has a respiratory illness.
And in that case, it's probably okay but because it's due to the um just the mucus in the um in the little pipes.
But if you find that it persists when they are well, then definitely see your GP.
Yeah, what other signs are there, Fallon?
Well, I'd also say to parents too, some of them will say, oh, yeah, they snore, but it's when they're in their car seat or when they're in the pram and their head has kind of slipped forward.
If it's just positional and pretty rare, I wouldn't be too worried.
But, yeah, snoring. or just really heavy kind of noisy breathing.
Yeah, it's a really clear sign that something is up.
But you touched on this next one briefly, Laura.
It's, you know, sleeping with the mouth closed wide open or they might also just have their head thrown right back because that can help to kind of elongate and and open up the airway.
And usually in those cases you'll see some breathing through the mouth as well.
And these can be signs that, yeah, tonsils or adenoids might be enlarged and making it pretty hard to digest. you know, for them to be able to draw in air easily.
And that can have a big impact on sleep and also speech development as well, because If there are kind of enlarged tonsils and adenoids, it's interrupting airflow.
Often that's also happening in the daytime as well.
So if your toddler's breathing through their mouth most of the time, definitely, yeah, worth getting that checked out.
Yeah. I just wanted to jump in there, Fallon, and say sometimes, particularly with older children, ones that are in... beds already.
What we can sometimes see is that they get themselves into odd positions on the bed where they hang their head over the back or over the side of the bed of the mattress.
So their heads kind of hanging off. And parents come in and reposition them and position their chin further down to their chest. and tuck them back in and leave the room only for their child to reposition themselves again and tip their head over the mattress.
The parents are inadvertently going in and closing the airways.
And then the child – don't worry, the child will – reposition themselves again.
So you're not going to be causing your child to stop breathing.
But it's just if you're finding that that's something that's happening for your older children. then that is also a sign that it's worth getting things checked out.
Yeah, a bit of a red flag. And then the final thing I would say is if, If you're noticing any of those kind of three things, so pauses in breathing during sleep or noisy breathing or snoring or mouth wide open or mouth breathing.
And it's coupled with very restless sleep.
So sort of tapping into what you said there, Laura, they might move around a lot in their sleep.
Or yeah, just, just be kind of constantly, I don't know, just restless, I guess, parents often sort of describe it as, oh, they never really stopped moving.
Or if they're just seeming really tired, even after appearing to have had a lot of sleep overnight.
That's another thing to look out for, excessive sort of daytime sleepiness. um when you think why you know they've had a really you know a good amount of sleep overnight And, of course, if you're worried, that's the other factor.
You know, like if you think something's just not right here.
And we see that in clinics sometimes. If parents and, you know, they've got maybe a toddler who just keeps waking at night no matter what we do, It's really, really persistent.
There's no signs of sleep apnea or any other physiological reason for sleep disturbance. but their parents are like, something is just a bit off.
I'm just like, go get a referral, see an ENT, check it off the list.
Like probably not going to be anything, but you're going to feel better if you have checked that out.
But that's really when, you know, if we've got no signs of sleep apnea, that would be kind of. probably one of the last things we would do generally we would be working on some different behavioral strategies um you know in the absence of any sort of symptoms of sleep apnea But, yeah, for some parents it does get to that point where they're like, I've just got to leave no stone unturned.
Yeah. And Fallon, why is it important to see a GP if you are noticing any of those signs that we've just described?
Yeah, so your GP will refer you to an ENT, which is an ear, nose and throat specialist.
And that ENT... will be able to really check out your child's airways.
They just have a really good look at things.
Obviously not my field, so they have all sorts of tools and tricks up their sleeve.
Maybe we should get an ENT on the podcast.
Actually, that would be very, very interesting.
Yeah. But the ENT, Yeah, the ENT can really work out, is there a problem?
Does it need to be treated? And, you know, often they're just ruling something out.
It ticks something off your list. you know, and you can kind of put it to the side and go, okay, that wasn't a problem for my child.
Or if treatment's needed, obviously you're on the right pathway, then yeah, But what I would say is don't be afraid to push for a referral.
I see a lot of families who say... they told their GP that the baby snores quite loudly and they were just like, oh, you know, they'll grow out of it.
Yeah, it's nothing. Some kids just do that.
So I think there's a bit of work to do in getting more GPs kind of up to speed on the fact that snoring is never normal and they should always be referred onto an ENT. to get checked out.
There are cases where people don't show any signs.
I'm talking about older adults though. don't show the sort of obvious signs of sleep apnea, but they actually are having pauses in breathing all through the night.
So, yeah, if you think something's up, really push your GP for that referral.
And I wouldn't take a kind of let's wait and see approach.
If your child's showing some of these signs and they're otherwise well, they're not having a respiratory sort of problem. virus or something, I would be just getting straight onto it.
Um, Yeah, really important to move on these things.
And I reckon take a video. Oh, sorry. Take a video.
Yeah, take a video. So if you... out observing your baby or toddler snoring, take a video of it.
You could... take more than one so that you can demonstrate that maybe it's a few across a week. or a couple of weeks, depending on how long it takes you to get in to see your GP so that you can demonstrate that it wasn't just a one-off, that it's something that has happened more than once.
And that's just really helpful for your GP as well, because they will be looking for things that we don't as non medics, we wouldn't know about, but it's really helpful information for them.
So that's a hot tip. Yeah, I'm glad you thought of that, Laura, because you're right.
It's so good to be able to show what you're actually experiencing at home.
Yeah. And maybe let's talk about the potential impacts when sleep apnea is left untreated.
Because I know we've each seen some cases where sleep apnea has been left untreated for years and there can be some pretty serious repercussions.
So if we think about just whilst it's happening, what we know is that... babies and toddlers and children, anyone who has got sleep apnea, they are going to be in a situation where their body wakes them. overnight.
If our body is not getting all the oxygen it needs, it's going to wake us up.
So whilst the sleep apnea is untreated, there's going to be ongoing night wakes.
And that means that the sleep quality that your child or yourself, you will be having is going to be higher. compromised because your child is going to be waking out of different stages of sleep and not getting the restorative sleep that they want. or that they need, sorry.
And then that has a knock-on effects into the day where they may have really poor mood, because they haven't had all of the REM sleep, for example, that they need, which we know is really important for emotion regulation and memory processing and learning.
So they can really be quite moody in the day.
They may have some really extreme behaviors, particularly for toddlers.
So they may be really hyperactive or they may be really have big outbursts. and really feel things strongly, which seems even more so now compared to other toddlers a similar age.
And oftentimes, once we address sleep Papnea parents report that their child's behavior kind of settles down a little bit.
What else do we see, Fallon? Yeah, so we know that even just from our own research, Laura, if sleep is problematic over an extended period of time. sort of going into the toddler years, that there seems to be an association with language development.
Obviously, if you're really, really tired, engaging in back and forth conversations that help to build children's language skills is a lot harder.
And if your parents are exhausted as well, you know, it's pretty hard to have those enriching language developing kind of interactions.
Yeah. you know, when you're in that state too.
And of course, if there are structural differences in your child's, you know, throat and that sort of thing, that can just impact making different speech sounds and things as well.
But also there's changes in growth and development.
So if your child's got really enlarged tonsils or adenoids and they're always have their mouth open all the time.
It can actually change how the facial shape develops as well.
And, of course, having pauses in your breathing, it's putting a lot of strain on a little body too.
And there's some evidence that sleep apnea – creates an increased risk for SIDS episodes too.
So it's a pretty horrible picture that we're painting here, but I think it helps to really underscore how important it is if you're noticing some of those signs to just get it checked out and rule it out.
You don't want to get three or four years down the track. and be like, my toddler's, well, preschooler is wild.
They're really strong. struggling to settle in you know at childcare or kindergarten their language is behind no one can understand what they're saying they're you know it You don't want to get in that situation where everything has become incredibly difficult.
If we can identify these things really early on, there are treatments available and you can get the expert support that you need.
So let's rehash what those four things are.
I think we've got number one is, are there pauses in breathing during sleep?
They can be pretty hard to notice, so you might not even notice that one, but they might be happening.
Is there snoring or noisy breathing during sleep?
It's probably the easiest one to pick up on.
Are they sleeping with their mouth wide open or their head thrown back or always breathing through their mouth or often breathing through their mouth?
And are any of those things sort of coupled with that restless sleep or seeming really tired in the daytime or are you simply just feeling like something's a bit off? and that would be a good reason to any one of those things are a good reason to see your GP, get a referral to an ENT, and hopefully you'll rule out any problem.
But if treatment's needed, well, yeah, you're off on the right path to getting that treatment.
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome is our go-to word.
I think transitioning between one segment to the next.
Yeah, it is. So shall we move on to parent questions now, Fallon?
Let's do it. We've got a lot to get through for parent questions, so let's just fire through them.
I think over 102 episodes now. We've talked about a lot of these things before, so I reckon we're going to get faster at answering them.
I think we will. So let's start with Emma's question.
So Emma has a five and a half month old whose sleep has dramatically improved using the quick fade approach.
They've gone from feeding to sleep and not transferring until one or two in the morning. to now settle.
Yeah, that would have been hard. And now Emma's baby is... settling in the cot between 7.30 and 8 and sleeping until 7.30 in the morning with just one overnight feed.
Well done, Emma. That's awesome. However, Emma says day naps remain difficult.
Her baby often refuses to nap in the cot, even with one to two rounds of quick food.
If she persists, her baby just screams and they usually need to nap in the pram or the car instead. and the baby falls asleep easily in this way.
Emma asks, how can they help their baby nap in the cot during the day?
Look, I would say this is a case where nighttime sleep has become so good and such high quality that this baby just doesn't have a lot of sleep drive during the daytime. for those naps.
So if they would rather not be napping when they're put in the cot, they're just going to be pretty reactive to that.
So I would say if they're napping on the go in the pram or the car at the moment, that's not a problem at all.
I mean, it's not for me, but I'm not the one doing it.
But what I mean is if you're actually really happy to do that, you absolutely can just keep doing your naps on the go in the pram or the car.
If you're really like desperately wanting at least, you know, one nap in the cot during the day, I would, you know what, I would probably just wait a little because I would say when they transition from three naps down to two with much longer time awake.
That sleep pressure is going to be a bit higher.
I suspect this baby's still on three naps. that sleep pressure will be a lot higher when they're awake longer.
And then you just want to replicate that nighttime sleep environment for their nap.
So make it pitch black. do a miniature version of your bedtime routine and you'll probably find that that's when it will come together and they will do that nap in the cot.
But well done, Emma. Sometimes this happens.
The nights become so gloriously good that then the naps feel a bit tricky.
And it's fine to manage it with the pram or the car and eventually it will come together.
Yeah, great. Okay, so we have a question from...
Katie next. Do you want to read that one out?
Yeah. So Katie's eight month old, still takes three naps a day.
Well, that's pretty old for three naps. um and he's a cat napper okay so usually just 30 minutes for a nap occasionally for another caregiver Katie's baby will nap for 60 to 90 minutes in the cot.
Isn't that always the way? Yeah. It's just not for Katie.
Poor Katie. Why don't they do it to us? Yes, and all the other caregivers are saying they're not a problem for me.
Yeah, what are you talking about? Their nap's fine.
Oh, poor Katie. Okay, so Katie says her baby wakes happy after short naps. has four to five hours awake before bed and sleeps well overnight from 8pm to 7am with just one feed.
And Katie would like to know if her baby is sleeping well overnight and not showing signs of needing the nap transition, dropping down naps.
Should she encourage dropping a nap simply due to age?
And if so, how should she approach it? I reckon that the reason that Katie's baby is continuing to have the catnaps is probably because... her baby is ready to move to two naps and if you move to two naps more consistently Katie she's your baby is probably more likely to have longer naps for you as well as for the other caregivers.
So look, if it's working okay for you and you don't mind the fact that she only catnaps for you, keep her on just the three naps for now.
But I'm saying she, but I'm not actually sure if it's they.
Maybe I should use they. So if they are... happy on the three naps, you're happy on it, and the nights are still good.
There's no pressure for you to move to fewer naps.
However, If you start to feel that it's not quite working for you, you would prefer to have longer naps. then I would say pick a day when you're going to make this transition.
Keep your... baby awake a little bit longer in the morning before you put them down for their first nap. and see if then with that slightly longer time awake in the morning, they can actually link a cycle in their cot and then again push a longer time awake before you put them down for their second nap Again, you might find that then they may do one longer nap.
Again, they might link to sleep cycles. If then it's just way too long, six hours, say, before the start of the night, and you know they're not going to be able to manage it, then give them that 15 or 20-minute pause. power nap just to get them through until bedtime, and then the next day try again. you should find that then with those longer stretches awake, the longer naps begin to stabilize.
Is there anything else you would add, Fallon?
Only to not expect it to be instant. I think a lot of parents make that mistake.
They go, well, one day I did try to go to two naps to see if they'd nap longer and they didn't.
So that's not the problem. And it's like, no, no, you've got to Got to do it for a few days to really see if those naps will consistently lengthen.
And if they're mostly having three short naps, They're probably not going to do a heap more total day sleep.
It might just be a one-hour nap in the morning and 30 minutes in the afternoon.
Yeah. And, yeah, so, yeah, good luck, Katie.
Yeah, hopefully that will all come together.
I think, yeah, you're right, Laura, as they move on to two naps.
All right. Leah. Yeah. Yes. So Leah has an 11-month-old who still breastfeeds to sleep for naps, bedtime, and for overnight wakes.
Leah is using a new daily rhythm, which has seen a reduction in the overnight wakes. her baby is waking just once or twice a night rather than three to five times well thank goodness for that Leah Yeah, gosh, that would be hard at 11 months old, still waking five times a night.
You'd be shattered, Leah. Leah writes that bedtime is between 9 and 9.30, wake up is between 8 and 8.30, and her baby has two hours across two naps.
Leah wants to know if it is normal for an 11 month old to still feed overnight. especially as her little one has allergies and is making slow progress with eating solids.
And she has a second question, which is, when should they move their baby to their own room?
And should this be done before or after their baby learns to fall asleep independently?
Oh, this is so interesting. So let's start with the feeding question.
Is it normal for an 11 month old to still feed overnight?
I mean, yeah, there's loads of 11 month olds who will feed overnight.
They don't need to usually like if weight gain is fine and they're doing well on solids, um, And usually we would say, look, they don't have to feed overnight.
And if they're waking up kind of expecting a feed, it might be worth starting to wean down those feeds and we probably would see that child sleep longer stretches at nighttime. once the feeds stop.
But if they've got allergies, then that's a whole different kettle of fish.
How severe are the allergies? Like one of my children had very few foods they could eat at all.
So they needed to be, you know, having bottles overnight for...
I don't even remember now I've erased it from my memory, but a very long time because it was essential to him meeting his caloric needs.
Yeah. If we're talking about being allergic to one or two different things, probably you don't need to keep night feeds.
So I think it's a question for your pediatrician or dietician, whoever's helping you manage those allergies.
And if they're slow with the solid foods, you've really got to talk to the same specialist, pediatrician or your dietitian, about nutrition.
Are they slow to learn how to eat solid food because they're feeding overnight and they just don't have much drive?
They're not overly hungry. They know they can get calories later by feeding overnight.
So why should I try to learn this very complicated, tricky thing?
Because eating is actually a pretty big skill to learn.
Or is it that, you know, they actually can't take on more calories through solid foods, in which case your dietician or pediatrician might say, yeah, keep the night feeds a bit longer.
So really it's not a question that I can answer.
I think it's really going to be very dependent on the individual child.
And you know what? Who cares if it's normal or not too?
Like if you want to feed a couple of times overnight, like it's fine.
But yeah, if it's something you're wanting to reduce. and you're dealing with allergies or problems with solid foods, chat to your healthcare team about what's appropriate to do.
And then the next part of that question, should they move their baby to their own room and should this be done before or after learning to fall asleep independently?
You know, I don't think there's a really clear-cut answer to this one.
So sometimes... I would say already Leah's baby is a little bit of a unicorn baby because they're feeding to sleep all the time and only waking, was it two?
Twice. It's twice overnight. Yeah, once or twice.
Sometimes just once. So that's amazing. There are multiple times. that baby's waking up and and instead of going oh my god i'm not feeding anymore they're just going i'm not feeding anymore but i don't really care and i'm gonna self-settle So this child is self-settling multiple times per night and already has some independent settling skills in place.
Yeah. So that should give you some confidence when you do go to make that shift to independent settling all of the time. um is it better to do it when they're in your room or in their own room generally if parents are feeling ready for it, I would say pop them in their own room because it's sort of like they go, oh, where am I?
New room, new rules. They're not knowing what to expect.
If there has been any co-sleeping, well, now the shared bed is out of sight, out of mind.
So that can often be, you know, a really good reset to just put them in this new sleep space, still giving them loads of support and you can even sleep in there with them if you want to.
But, yeah, sometimes that can actually be really helpful with that transition.
And I think so often families don't realise how often families Yeah, parents are waking the babies and the babies are waking the parents.
And then they sleep in different rooms. Everyone's like, whoa, I got the best sleep of my life. because we weren't waking each other all night.
So that's another thing to consider as well.
So I hope that that answer gives you some guidance and something to think about, Leah.
But yeah, what would you say, Laura? Yeah.
Yeah, especially Leah, if you do decide alongside the pediatrician and or dietician that the breastfeeds overnight can go.
It may be easier if you are in a different room from your baby overnight because...
They're not then coming up into light sleep at their usual feed time and going, oh, there's mum.
Right there. I can see her. I can see her.
Hello. Can I have that feed now? So instead, they'll be coming up into sleep going, oh, nothing's changed since I went to sleep and gone. you know more likely to then sleep pressure put them into their next cycle um So yeah, you may find it's actually a little bit easier if your boobs aren't in the eyesight of your baby overnight.
If you decide to drop those overnight feeds.
I'd also say, Leah, that If it's working for you, it does sound like you do have a unicorn baby.
You don't have to work on independent settling. at this point if you don't want to.
Of course, there will come a time where you may not want to be feeding your baby to sleep and that's perfectly reasonable as well.
But don't feel pressured into making that change if you aren't ready for it at this point in time.
Yeah, I think that's great advice. All right.
So now we've got a question from Jacinta who has a six and a half month old baby girl. who self-settles within five to ten minutes, sleeps just under 11 hours overnight and for two and a half hours a day across three naps.
She wakes one to three times overnight, usually requiring a short feed before quickly returning to sleep.
Jacinta has tried two approaches to reduce the night feeds.
She's tried scheduled feeds and dream feeds. and both caused long resettles and disrupted naps.
Mood was up and down and wake time was variable.
She writes that hands-on settling was not effective.
So she'd like to know, when dropping night feeds disrupts sleep, how much catch-up sleep in the day is appropriate without affecting nighttime sleep pressure.
And how can she reduce night feeds without causing split nights or early wakes, given that hands-on settling seems counterproductive?
I think these two questions are really closely linked.
If when you are... When you are looking to reduce those feeds overnight and you're making the choice to do it rather than your baby making the choice to do it, we have to remember that And we're taking something away from them that they want.
They don't need it. At six and a half months, I'm assuming, Jacinta, you're...
Your baby is on solids, weight gain is fine, etc.
And that's why you're reducing the fees overnight.
So, yeah. some babies, when we look at taking away some night feeds that they no longer need, will really... protest about it because they don't want that to change.
They like it. And so then we can find that the resettling can take quite a long time.
Because they're thinking, come on, surely anytime now the fee is going to come.
And if we then let them sleep in in the morning. and give them catch-up sleeps to make up for the time that they were awake, then it does disrupt that sleep pressure regulation the next day because it's like we're trying to fill that proverbial bucket with water and we keep poking holes in it if the bucket is...
The water going in is the sleep pressure.
Every time we're giving a baby extra catch-up sleep... when we're trying to change something about how they sleep, we're just poking a hole in it.
And so that would mean that the next night, your baby is still going to have the reserves to protest really loudly when again you don't give them a feed and then that can really start to chip away at your confidence too, because you know it's appropriate for them to have fewer feeds overnight.
But they don't want to drop that feed. You're pushing ahead.
They then are awake for a long time. You then let them sleep in in the morning.
And then we're just on this. merry-go-round that everyone wants to get off.
So I would actually say if you've made that decision to drop the feeds, it's appropriate for you and your baby. then try and avoid letting your baby have long sleep ins or catch up sleeps so that you can try and hold that wake up time steady in the morning. potentially you might put them to bed a little bit earlier that night but not loads earlier but because we normally find that when sleep pressure is just right, normally it only takes a couple of nights for your baby to learn that there's there are only X number of feeds overnight now, or there's no feeds overnight now.
But it only happens that quickly if we hold things steady.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I 100% agree.
I actually think we have to be... quite militant on sticking to that schedule in those first few days because, yeah, otherwise there is that slippage. where we just are in this cycle of, well, it takes me forever to resettle them without a feed overnight.
Then they have this catch-up sleep and then the next night it's just as bad.
You know, if we are really militant with the timing, you know, even if you woke up for three hours overnight, we're getting up on time.
We're pushing through the day on as close to our normal rhythm as we can. when yeah within two or three days they've dropped the feeds they're done and they're sleeping longer at night because their drive to sleep is so strong So it's one of those cases where it's like either go all in or don't touch it until you're feeling ready to go all in.
Yeah. Because if we keep allowing that little bit of catch up sleep, like I feel Jacinta's pain.
It is really, really hard to keep going.
So it might be a case of just going, oh, we've got these three days.
I've got some extra supports around me at this time.
I'm going to go all in on my daily rhythm.
You know, we're going to drop down to one feed or whatever it is you're dropping down to or maybe you're dropping the final feed and just do it.
And it's the quickest way through. It's a great question though, Jacinta.
Thanks for submitting that because. I think that it's something that catches out a lot of parents.
You know, we go, oh, they had a bad night.
We definitely need to let them catch up on some sleep.
But, yeah, it can actually make things so much harder. in the long run yeah yeah for sure and since your baby doesn't like really hands-on settling you're likely to need to use the supported accelerated approach so that your baby isn't getting irritated. your hands on patting when they want to feed pick me up.
I can imagine that would be really aggravating for them.
So Hold steady on that timing, use a more hands-off approach and have the support around you and you'll be out the other side within just a few days.
You've got this, Jacinta. We've helped so many parents out of this particularly tricky little ditch that... yeah it's all in some time so you can absolutely get through this um let us know how you go Okay, our next question is from Annie, who has a very little baby.
So she has an eight-week-old baby girl. So congratulations, Annie.
And Annie says that she sleeps well when held or in a carrier, but in the bassinet, she wakes after 40 minutes.
She settles well initially, but after 20 minutes begins grunting, straining and crying until waking fully.
They have resorted to shift sleeping at night to hold her for longer stretches.
Oh, that's really hard. So Annie asks, firstly, how to tell the difference between active sleep and true unsettledness?
And secondly, should they keep encouraging bassinet sleep at this stage or try something else?
Good questions. Yeah, this is a fantastic question.
She's sleeping well initially, but after 20 minutes in the bassinet starts grunting, straining and crying until she fully wakes at that 40 minute mark. that is such a great example of in light sleep, babies can be so noisy.
They can be asleep and still cry and do all sorts of things. it is totally normal and how you can tell the difference between active sleep and true unsettledness is if they're really unsettled, if there is something wrong. um or discomfort pain hunger etc they will cry and they will at that point open their eyes they will be so much more in their upset, I suppose, over whatever it is that's bothering them.
It's really common for this to happen because it's just a shift from being generally held really close and having a lot of firm pressure around them to being on their back and the pressure is just on their back.
And it just takes some adjusting too. So with what you describe, Annie, I wouldn't be saying, oh, no, don't do bassinet settling.
I'd say keep practicing it because you're making success. some inroads here.
It's great that she's doing a full sleep cycle in the bassinet.
I actually think that's brilliant. Some babies will do 10 minutes or they just won't even transfer at all.
You just can't even get in there. So I think that's really good.
And you could build your day around her having –
You know, just maybe more naps but shorter naps if you're really wanting to practice the cot settling and that would be totally fine.
And then in terms of should they keep encouraging bassinet sleep at this stage or try something else?
I would very strongly recommend that you keep on with it.
And the reason I say that, normally I'd be like, well, it's up to you and what do you feel like doing?
But I get a bit of a shiver when I hear parents say that they're taking turns at night to hold the baby, to keep the baby asleep.
Yeah. Because that is when accidents happen.
And as parents, we've got to look after your wellbeing, your sleep quality, your mental health.
I haven't met a parent who is doing that kind of shift.
We said all the time where they might be, you know, holding the baby for hours, trying to stay awake or sitting in a chair or something and, who has good mental health because as humans you have to have good sleep to have good mental health.
Like you can't really – you know, have one and not the other.
So that makes me concerned about the parents, but it does make me really concerned about Annie's baby because We never think we're going – it's like with driving.
No one who crashes their car because they fall asleep at the wheel ever thought that they were about to fall asleep at the wheel and crash their car or we would be waking ourselves up.
You don't know when you're suddenly going to drop off to sleep.
And that's what makes it really quite dangerous.
So I would say in this case... I would go all in with the bassinet settling, practice it a lot because after probably a week of doing all the settles in the bassinet, keep resettling in the bassinet overnight. build the support around you that you need to survive that very tricky week.
But then you've got a baby who's like, oh yeah, I'm fine here.
My parents have supported me. I've gotten used to it.
It's not unfamiliar to me. I know it's safe.
I'm comfortable. It's all good. And then all that risk just goes away because this baby's always sleeping in a safe place.
And we've got two parents who will eventually be better rested once we get through that transition.
Yeah. And what I would also just add to this is if that just feels like too much for Annie, is where I would reach out to an early parenting centre and get some support to help you with that settling.
Because for some parents, you know, trying to whether that transition to settles in the bassinet or the cot, it exceeds capacity.
And it's not your fault. It's just a product of the circumstances that we're all parenting in, or so many of us are, where we don't have... always have the supports that we need around us.
And sometimes these hurdles can feel, you know, 100 metres high.
And, you know, we just do need that enhanced support to get through.
Yeah, I think that is such a compassionate answer, Fallon.
Yeah, like you, when I hear a family... is resorting to shift work overnight to hold a little baby to sleep.
My heart goes out to them, but it does send a shiver down my spine as well.
And this is the reason why those early parenting centres are available. for these really tricky situations that some families find themselves in.
There's no shame in reaching out to them. to get some real hands-on support for you whilst you support your little one. and continue to be the best parents that you can be.
So let us know how you get on, Annie. It will get easier.
And there are supports out there for you.
And what an amazing parent, the lengths that Annie and her partner are willing to go to. for their baby to help that baby get good sleep.
I think that is, it deserves an honorable mention that you would even do that.
Like, yeah. How incredible. It's amazing.
Parents are amazing. They don't realize it often enough, but you are amazing.
Yeah. All right. Well, we also heard from Dana.
Dana has a seven month old baby boy. who they successfully moved from co-sleeping to cot-sleeping at night using the Ferber method.
Okay, so it's not a Sombau method. The Ferber method is something quite different.
But Dana says it's not been successful for their day naps.
So she wants to know, Can they use the supported accelerated approach for naps without confusing their baby since fervor is already used overnight?
Or could they switch to supported accelerated for both naps and nights?
What would you recommend, Laura? I would recommend just switching to the supported accelerated for both.
Same. Yeah, because you have tried to use the Ferber for the naps and it's just not working.
We want there to be one consistent way for your baby boy to go to sleep and So let's just pivot to using the supported accelerated.
It's the intervals between the... reassuring your baby are much, much shorter.
You can stay alongside your baby. And you may find that that's just the extra level of support that your son needs for the naps versus sleep. at bedtime where the Ferber method has worked, which has the longer intervals and leaving the room and so forth.
So during the day, sleep pressure is much lower because it is –
It completely falls off a cliff overnight and then it starts to climb again during the day.
So before the naps, the sleep pressure is much lower than it is before nighttime sleep.
And so some babies may just actually need a little bit more support from for the naps.
And I think that this is the case for Dana's baby.
So yeah, pivot to the supported accelerated for all.
I would only want to add to that, that typically the fervor method, you know, it's so quickly just extinguishes any support to fall asleep that usually those babies. are just like right they're self-settling always it's you know done hard and fast and done so I would just check in on that daily rhythm Like I just think, why aren't, you know, like they've got the skills, why aren't they doing it?
So just, yeah, check in on the daily rhythm, Dana, because if they're seven months old.
They should be on two naps. So if they're still having three, I'd just drop down to two.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just making sure they're not over, you know, that that daily rhythm makes sense for their sleep needs could be really crucial.
And then you might just suddenly find out they're actually fine. settling in their cot and they've already got to do it so yeah so maybe actually that's your first step Dana double check the daily rhythm first Move to two naps if your baby isn't already on two naps.
If they are on two naps, just double check that there isn't...
You're not putting them down a little bit too early for those maps. continue to use the approach that has worked at night try that for a few days if that doesn't work then switch to the supported accelerated for yeah and nighttime I think it's a great idea to standardize the approach once you do figure out that daily rhythm, no matter what you do.
It's just good for babies, toddlers, kids.
Adults probably too, to just, you know, know that these are the same cues that mean it's sleep time.
So yes. Yeah. Good luck, Serena. All right.
Yeah, good luck. Now we've got a question from Shannon.
So she's on day two of the supported accelerated approach with her little boy. who has been protesting for one to two hours at bedtime and during night wakes.
She describes him as a determined sleep fighter.
And feels confident. It's protest rather than de-stress.
But the prolonged crying is making her doubt whether to persist.
She wants to know at what point should she alter, pause or stop the approach. approach.
These questions this week are like on fire.
They're such good questions. One to two hours at bedtime and during night wakes.
I just think that's too long. There's something not right there.
Like even though this baby is described as really liking fighting sleep, you know.
It's such a long time that if you are getting them up on time in the morning and –
Powering through the day and then at nighttime you're still having these troubles.
It's sleep pressure. Something is too off there for that to keep going. although it is only day two of the supported accelerated approach.
So we would expect there to still be maybe some tricky settles, but I would say generally on day two, you shouldn't really see – what would you say?
I would say usually the settles aren't taking longer than 30 or 40 minutes.
Like most of them would be – 15 20 minutes maybe tops so yes i frequently hear 20 minutes for the second night the first settle of the second night, 20 minutes, like that first time that you use it on the first night. can be long like on average it's three quarters of an hour but some babies will do a two hour um I mean, that's not rare, but it can happen.
Yeah, there's sleep fighters out there. We need to have a trophy.
We can create some song bell trophies that will send the sleep fighters.
Sleep the hardest. Yeah. So for the sleep fighters out there, they might have a really long settle on the first night and maybe one or two long settles overnight.
But then ordinarily, the bedtime settle on the second night is shorter. often hear 20 minutes, half an hour.
Maybe for a sleep fighter, it might be 45. but I wouldn't be expecting it to still be two hours at bedtime on the second night.
So... And by the third night, generally settling is really quick.
Like five to 10 minutes is not uncommon.
Um, obviously it varies a lot. So if you'd like, Oh no, my baby took 12 minutes or 20 minutes.
Don't freak out. It's totally fine for that variability.
But, um, Yeah, I think something is just a little off there.
But Shannon, you sound so determined. Well done on just...
It must have been a tricky couple of days.
And I wonder how things are going now because I'm sure this email didn't arrive. today so curious to hear shannon let us know how you're going um and yeah i think yeah have a have a look at that daily rhythm There's going to be something there that we can tweak.
Just to give the answers about when do you alter, pause or stop the approach, we build in those circuit breakers or the resets every half an hour or so.
So at bedtime you would use the approach for, let's say, half an hour.
Then if your baby isn't calming, pick them up, walk around the house with them, get them entirely calm, get yourself calm.
And then you, go in and you start again and go again for another half hour and then do another reset or circuit breaker if you need to. and keep going until they go to sleep and go back to sleep overnight.
For the daytime naps, that's when you can try for a period of time and then say, do you know what, we're going to finish this in the car or the pram. or we'll try again in an hour.
But at nighttime, we just keep going with those circuit breakers built in.
Yeah. Very good. All right. We also have Danielle. who says she has a baby boy who has two one-hour naps, sometimes longer. bedtime at 8.30 p.m. and wake up at 6.30 a.m.
He still feeds twice overnight but resettles quickly within 10 minutes.
Occasionally he wakes up set at 10.30pm and takes about 30 minutes to be resettled using the supported accelerated approach.
His wake times before bed range from three to five hours and he manages really well.
So Danielle is wondering if there's anything they should adjust to reduce the night waking.
It sounds like things are going really well, Danielle.
I would be looking at... creating a more consistent awake time before the start of the night, I would say. so if it's three to five hours I'd just be looking at making that a standard duration I'm not actually sure how old Daniel's Danielle's baby is, but I'm guessing under 12 months because he's still on two naps or, you know, maybe around 12 months.
So I'd be looking at that last wake window being consistent duration. so that his sleep pressure is hitting the same point by bedtime each night.
And then that's going to help him be able to maintain his sleep more consistently overnight and stop having as many wake ups.
If it's just if you want to reduce the feeding overnight, the other thing that actually that awake time before bed is standard already. then I would be deciding on which...
Well, thinking about is he ready to drop down from two feeds to one feed? a day that you're going to say right from today or from tonight rather it's only going to be one feed and say that will be the first time he wakes up after 1am, for example.
And then every time he wakes before 1am, just use that supported accelerated approach. then give him the feed when he does wake up around 1am and then use a supported accelerated until morning.
What we sometimes see for some babies is that they if they know that there's that feed coming, they will keep waking for it.
And similarly to how we answered one of the other questions earlier, And normally it takes just two nights for a baby to learn that the... there are fewer number of feeds overnight.
So if it's that you want to drop from the two feeds down to one feed, I would that's how I would go about first of all, checking the daily rhythm.
Secondly, just making your decision that today is going to be the day that you move to one feed and then stick with it.
And once you've moved to one feed, after three nights, you can drop that final feed.
Would you add anything else, Felon? Yeah, I just think that some babies, most babies really, probably all of them, they don't really know what the time is.
So when they wake up overnight and often at around 10.30, they've had a stretch of deep sleep.
And then they're kind of coming up into the latter stages of sleep and they're just like, maybe it's a feed time.
I don't know. I get some feeds at night.
I may as well try and find out what happens.
And so for as long as there are any night feeds off and sometimes I'll just, yeah, keep waking thinking, well, maybe...
It's time for another one. So it could be that reducing the night waking comes down to gradually reducing those overnight feeds. yeah okay good luck Danielle let us know how you get on and Let's move on to our next question from Kirsty.
Kirsty has a nine-month-old baby boy, and she's got some interesting questions about sleep cycles.
So she asks, is it possible that her son's sleep cycles vary?
For example, the first sleep cycle of a nap could be 35 minutes and then the second sleep cycle could be 38 minutes. or even nap one has a 35-minute sleep cycle and then nap two has a 30-minute cycle.
Should we do these questions one by one?
Yeah, okay, let's do that one. Because I would say to that one...
It doesn't matter. There's going to be variability because when you're in light sleep, it often doesn't take much to wake you.
Yeah. Yeah, there's often that little bit of variability in how long the sleep cycle is simply because, you know, was there a noise?
Was there an itch? Was there a little bit of light over there?
Did something kind of prompt them to wake up?
So I wouldn't be worried if it seems to vary a little bit.
We're only talking a few minutes either side.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is going to be that answer will relate to the second question.
So Kirstie asks, do sleep cycle lengths. vary depending on where a nap is taken.
For example, a pram nap sleep cycle, could it be different to a cot nap sleep cycle?
And she wonders if, yes, could that be due to being woken in light sleep by background noise and then resetting the clock in a way?
And she's interested in how she would know when to wake him to maintain our daily rhythm.
Yeah, similar kind of answer, but sleep cycle lengths don't vary depending on where a nap is being taken. um it's just a case of is there something waking them so some parents will say oh you know if they're what's like the earlier one if they're being held asleep for 40 minutes if they're in longer, I think it was.
But as an example, if they're being held, they'll sleep for 40 minutes.
But if I put them in the bassinet, they spring awake after 20 minutes.
It's just that they are being bothered by, oh, hang on, I'm not where I was.
And it's enough to kind of wake them up.
So how would you know when to wake the baby to maintain our daily rhythm?
I would just look at the average, you know, what's the average sleep cycle length and aim for roughly that and be good enough.
Yeah. And in this instance, it might be that it's 35 minutes.
And yeah, good enough. And just be thinking about, yeah, that they could well just be being woken. out of that lighter sleep a little bit sooner when they're in the pram because there's interesting noises.
And that may be why you're seeing that it's napping for a little bit shorter in the pram, for example.
Kirstie's next question is, is it normal for babies to move around in their sleep, even when not transitioning to the next sleep cycle?
Her son does this a lot and that, again, she finds it hard to determine when would be the best time to wake him up.
Hmm, I'm just looking at the age, nine months old.
Look, I would be concerned if there wasn't a stretch of time of pretty still sleep.
There are always babies that will be outliers with this, but generally when we're in deep sleep, we're very still.
So if it is just constant movement, then I'd be like, ooh, are they snoring?
Do they have noisy breathing? I'd be actually thinking about the sleep apnea side of things.
Why are they so restless and what's going on there?
So, you know, they could be still for the first half of the sleep cycle and then rolling around all over the joint. for the next half, I wouldn't be necessarily worried about that because babies can be super active as they go into lighter stages of sleep.
But similar answer to before, I suppose, look at the average sleep cycle length and just go with that in terms of determining when you might wake him up.
And again, this next question just is resonating your answer to the last question.
She says, is it normal to show a lot of tiredness? tired signs throughout a large chunk of the awake time but still be able to be playful, smiling, interacting with toys, crawling around and pulling up to stand.
He'll often play with his ears and rub his eyes, but to avoid trying to put him to sleep too early to avoid a potential long settle if it's not his usual nap time. time and I'm thinking that yes my if we didn't know that he was always moving around in his sleep I would be answering that going, yeah, look, some tired signs and boredom signs can be really closely linked.
And if your baby can be distracted and is mostly content during their awake time, then there's nothing to worry about. about, mostly.
But in this instance, I am wondering if perhaps he is very restless in his sleep and that is having an impact on the quality of his sleep.
Maybe that's playing out in his awake time where he does seem tired for a lot of the time.
It's definitely worth checking. But I think it's something about being quite engaged, interacting with toys.
Yeah. If he was really tired, I just feel like that would probably start to suffer.
You know, often people say, oh, I know they're tired because they get so clumsy.
And then they get frustrated at their clumsiness and that sort of thing.
And cranky and a bit grisly, certainly not playful and smiling.
Yeah. Yep. So it's definitely something to think about.
Like, yeah, if you're thinking he's not quite right during the daytime and he's super restless, um, this was the perfect podcast. to um to submit that question kirsty we're already talking about these things um so i I hope that helps.
It's a really good little dive into sleep cycle links in that little set of questions.
We probably could have made that an episode, I reckon.
So Laura wrote in, Laura has an eight month old that has a very regimented sleep routine that works really well.
So she has a 12 hour and 25 minutes sleep need and goes to bed at 8 p.m., wakes up at 6.30am in the morning.
She has two naps in the day, one for an hour and another for 45 minutes.
And Laura wakes her up from both. She's thriving and a very happy baby.
So despite being sort of woken up from naps and nighttime sleep to kind of keep things on track. um she sort of seems to be getting um sufficient sleep she's quite happy so So Laura is wondering at what age would you stop being so regimented with regulating the total sleep needs and just let them kind of wake up at the time that suits them?
Well, I would do it from about now, Laura.
So essentially, once we have our little ones in a Good daily rhythm.
So we can let our foot off the brake and say, let's see what happens now if we...
Don't wait them in the morning at that set 6.30 time, for example.
You don't need to go wild if they're still asleep at 8 a.m. probably things were really going to fall over.
But you could say, let's just see. If I didn't wake her at 6.30, what time would she wake naturally?
Maybe she'll wake up at 6.35 or 6.40 or 7.00.
And then you go, okay, let's see if we do that for the next few days.
Does sleep stay on track? Does she still continue to maintain her sleep overnight?
And if she does, brilliant. But if you find that things start to fall over... she starts to take a long time to fall asleep at the start of the night again, or throws the naps off, or she starts to wake up overnight again.
Then you go, oh, okay, we actually have to be a little bit stricter with this little one.
So always what we're doing is when we first design that daily rhythm, we're basing it on the sleep needs that we first calculated the first time we started observing their sleep.
We then create the daily rhythm. We then bring in any settling approaches that we need to do. we then see the improvement in sleep.
And after a week or two of excellent sleep, then we just go, let's just relax things a little bit and see what happens.
Most of the time we've got it right straight away, but sometimes there are children who will sleep a little bit longer sometimes.
And sometimes there are children who wouldn't go the other way at that point because we would have tightened it if things hadn't worked out.
So it's always worth just giving it a go.
And you may find, Laura, that your eight month old does sleep in for a little bit longer.
It might only be 10 minutes more. And they're fine.
Yeah. And if you do get to that point where you think, oh, maybe we could trial just adding a bit more sleep back in, relaxing it a bit.
I would say don't relax everything. Like I really would pick one time of day where you say, okay, I'm going to let them have maybe an extra 15 minutes or something like with a sleep in.
Just let them go 15 minutes longer for a week and see how things go.
Give it some time, see if they adjust. And I really like Laura's question because there are some babies where I often describe it as some babies seem to have these circadian rhythms that are really resilient, where...
We get them into a pattern and then they just, they're off and away and they just maintain that pattern and continue. things are pretty great and pretty predictable without a lot of effort and without having to be really regimented.
And then there are other babies where they have these slippery sliding circadian rhythms where the minute we try to just let them have a little bit extra sleep, everything falls over.
Like the nights just turn terrible. And it's like, how it's 10 minutes or 15 minutes of sleep.
Like what is happening? But the circadian rhythms are just desperately trying to break loose and then they'll just turn to absolute chaos.
So it depends a little bit on the kind of baby you've got.
And same with toddlers, same with children, same with teens. some of them you can just they'll just fall into a rhythm and others you have to be really really you know watching it and kind of keeping an eye on it because they can be that slippery so Yes.
We have just had the best questions this week.
I know I say that a lot, but I think there's just been a really lovely set of questions that have touched on some really great things that...
Yeah, maybe some things we haven't actually talked about before, which is kind of amazing at episode 102.
Yeah. Someone said to us the other day, yeah, yeah, how are you finding anything new to talk about?
And it's like, well, we just answer the parent questions.
Like there's always a different angle. Yeah.
But no, it's great. All right. So let's wrap this up.
Like we said earlier, if you have sent in a question to the podcast and we haven't answered it, please just remind us, send it through to us again because we certainly don't do it on purpose.
It's just a bit of chaos lately. Don't forget that we have our Nightwaking Masterclass that's available in each of the SOMBAL programs has a Nightwaking Masterclass.
If you're struggling with night waking and you remember, go and watch it.
And someone did ask why we don't have subtitles on that video.
And it really just comes down to my. technological ineptitude.
I just could not. Oh, technology was doing weird things to me that day.
But I do have a plan to somehow figure out how to get subtitles on it without other elements of the video doing completely random spurious things.
Yes. Anyway, I might have to call on my tech savvy husband to help me with that one, but it will come because we know the value of subtitles. especially when you're holding a sleeping baby and you don't want the noise on.
Yes. If you'd like to buy us a coffee, please do.
There's a link in our show notes. We always love that.
And, of course, if you're listening along and you're struggling with sleep or settling our Sunvale programs are super comprehensive, but we also have an amazing team of sleep practitioners and, and, you know, there's a lot of availability right now.
We've got new practitioners on board who are opening up new appointments all the time.
So it's probably one of the the easiest times to get an appointment with us.
In the past, it's taken three or four months at some point.
If you're needing that real one-on-one support, we're totally here for that.
So check out the link in the show notes.
But otherwise, that's another episode wrapped up, Laura.
Yay, awesome. Thanks so much, everyone. Bye bye.
If you need help with your baby or toddler's sleep or settling, you need Sombel.
Sombel is Australia's first online pediatric sleep clinic program for babies and toddlers aged zero. to three years.
It contains all the best resources from the sleep clinics at Infant Sleep Australia, so you can rest easy and soak in your child.
To find out more, click the link in the show notes
