The universe has good news for the lost, lonely, and heart sick.
Sugar is here, the both of us, speaking straight into your ears.
I'm Cheryl Strait.
I'm Steve Almond.
This is Dear Sugar Radio.
Oh dear song, won't you please?
She has some little sweet days with me.
I check my bell by every day.
Oh and this sugar, using my way.
Hi Cheryl.
Hi Steve.
So we are in week two of our episodes on friendship.
Last week we did the frequently asked questions.
This week we're narrowing our focus a bit to look at what happens when men and women are friends.
And the issues that might arise, why don't we just dive right in my friend?
Let's do it, let's do it my friend.
Alright Dear Sugar's, I'm a young woman in a tight-knit male-dominated creative industry.
Our work is our art and our art is our work, which means there's ample opportunity to make meaningful connections
that extend well beyond the proverbial water cooler.
I have a few close male friends I'm deeply connected to, and I mean true friends, with whom I share strong but platonic emotional bonds.
I love the richness these relationships bring to my life, my partner does not.
He's convinced men and women can never truly be friends that attraction will eventually get the better of one or both parties turning disastrous for all.
He's always suspicious of my male friends and frustrated at my investment in them.
Naturally this irks me, but Sugar's is he right?
Is it just unrealistic to believe real male female friendships are sustainable?
Am I being naive to think we're not chemically bound to develop romantic feelings?
And that if such an attraction did occur we could recover without losing the friendship, signed platonically puzzled.
Well I think we are proof that the answer to this question is yes men and women can really be friends platonically puzzled.
I mean I'm actually concerned about your partner who doesn't think this.
This tells me that he's not really opened himself up to relationships with women without always making sex and attraction part of the equation, which I think really limits his life.
I do think that there are some things to consider when you're straight and friends with somebody of the opposite sex and you certainly want to respect your partner and make your partner feel valued and sometimes included in those friendships.
But they absolutely can exist. Steve I've had male friends all my life.
There have been times where then suddenly some sex thing enters the picture, it messes everything up. But what I can say in my experience and I really identify with you platonically puzzled, you can really develop true emotional connections with people for whom you have absolutely no sexual desire and you purposely don't allow that into the equation.
Yeah, I mean this is part of the problem with patriarchal thought and more broadly are kind of relentless gender hang ups.
Everybody loves Harry Win Harry Met Sally but it's like a rom-com folks.
People have complicated lives and because we get so confused about romantic sexual intimacy and emotional intimacy.
Oftentimes there's an occluded view of what is perfectly natural. I've had mostly female friends in my life. Why? Because I like to talk about feelings and that stuff's important to me and frankly they're usually a little bit less self-absorbed than men or whatever.
Maybe I'm threatening competitive with men because of my hang ups. There's a complicated reasons but I gravitate towards I lived in my last year in college I lived with three women in the house and they were all pals of mine. And there was a little moment of romantic confusion with one of them.
And it was something that we struggle with for a week or two and that does happen for God's sakes. What your boyfriend's jealous of is that you have really powerful friends that you feel deeply connected to not just in a professional sense but creatively.
And you invest in those friendships and you invest your emotion in them and good on you. And if you can't get with that then you need to get with somebody new.
It's so amply clear to me that taking the posture that that's just impossible is a kind of adolescent view of gender relations.
It is. And I will say I agree with you entirely Steve but one thing you can do if platonically puzzled you want to try to help your boyfriend grow a bit on this subject because I don't think he's alone in thinking this.
I've certainly heard it from men before and some women too. One of the things is you can first of all listen to the show with him this episode especially today.
But you know I find too like when I think about the closest male friends I've had you know I always pulled them into my life in a whole way like you are also friends with Brian.
You know we we became friends I mean we all met around the same time but you and I became friends first and same with Aaron like you know I know you better than I know Aaron but I feel like Aaron is my friend too.
And there's a kind of sort of neutral feeling you know that that any idea of there being romance or sex with with all of my male friends has been neutralized by the fact that they're just very naturally part of my life right and my partner also likes these people even if I'm closer to some of these male friends.
And it works the other way too my my husband has friends from graduate school he's been friends with them you know decades now.
And I'm included in their friendships even though you know they're primarily friends and you know maybe that's part of the problem here platonically puzzled I mean I think that first part is your boyfriend believes that men and women can't be friends but if he's willing to go a step further open his mind maybe think about introducing him to these guys.
Meeting them for drinks maybe in some ways diminishing his sense of feeling threatened and I do get it because as you said yourself you're part of a tight knit male dominated creative.
And I work as a hard as our work like he's jealous of your workplace. He's jealous of the fact that you are obviously a magnetic figure in this world of talented creative men that you have lots in common with in terms of your art and your work and your professions and you emotionally invested in them.
So okay let's be considerate of that but that should be a cause for him he should be happy that you're able to find support in from friends as well that's the irony here that the person is resentful of the kind of friendships and supports that you get from outside.
But he should also understandably stake out his claim to the part that is his the romantic involvement and the emotional intimacy and so forth. I think those are not mutually exclusive gosh I hope not.
I know yeah and I will say you know this isn't something that is the domain of boyfriends I know there are a lot of women and heterosexual relationships who have that same kind of thing they're threatened when their male partners are friends with other women and so it works both ways we wish you luck.
Okay next letter. Dear sugars I come to you as a dear devotee of anything and everything Nora Efron. I along with many others believe her writings and films know how to get at the core of human emotion especially the male and female relationship.
In particular I have always maintained a steadfast fascination with when Harry met Sally as we all know the theme of the movie surrounds the question as to whether or not men and women can be friends.
And I must say that I side with Sally on this I have formed several friendships with my male opposites throughout the years friendships that I treasure for their hilarity sincerity and lack of soap operatic drama however I recently have found myself at a crossroads with these male friendships I a textbook extrovert take great care to know my male pals.
I ask frequent questions about their families jobs role-mances or lack thereof because I love them and want them to know I'm interested in their well-being.
My issue here is that it feels one sided I can count on two fingers the men that have at times been in my life aside from my husband who will message me or call me to check in and say hello.
These two fellas devote time to knowing the real me instead of the surface level me the others don't bother.
So I suppose my question is this is this a guy thing or is it just my guy friends.
Do men truly not take the time to think about these things and ask the in-depth questions can I chalk it up to gender differences.
If not how can I continue to pursue these friendships without feeling emotionally exhausted all the time when it comes down to it each and every one of them has qualities I admire and I truly enjoy spending time with them.
Yet I'm often left to wonder if I should be pouring myself into more fulfilling friendships for my sake.
Is it only female friends from here on out because I don't think I can handle that either.
Signed girlfriend.
I'm not going to take Umbridge at this at all Cheryl straight because actually two friends who call you and really want to know how you're doing that's not bad.
Two male friends.
Two male friends.
All of her female friends.
Okay, all of her female friends but two male friends that's not bad.
Look, I'm not going to sit here and say men are you know who's how dare you accuse men of being callous and self-interested and unable to engage in a deeper emotional level and they're not as considerate.
More considerate, more empathic, more apt to ask how you're doing and extend their consideration in your direction then just want to joke around and you know kind of not get into that deep heavy stuff.
Right.
And I think a lot of friendship is as I said last week in triage figuring out which friendships supply which things that you need that are sustaining.
If you have two friends who are considerate in this way great nurture those friendships but if you have friends who you goof around with and who just aren't constitutionally ready to be the kind of friend who is going to naturally unprompted call or look you in the face and say how you doing are you okay.
You just have to recognize that's not who they are in the context of this relationship.
I think that you can and I love nor affron and I commend you to read the essay if you have in a few words about breasts will put a link to that particular essay on the dear sugar website simply because it's a more sophisticated and nuanced discussion of gender relations and how nor affron is struggled with this feeling that she's more like a boy.
And it partly had to do with developing breasts later in life and not having big breasts but it also had to do with how she moved to the world being more extroverted being less apt to have those quiet sensitive she presented as quote unquote masculine.
And there are certain attributes that are associated with that that aren't the kind of more inward looking attributes that I think women have the space to or maybe suffer the burden of coming to more intuitively or more easily in the culture.
So you're picking up on something real but you also have a couple of good male friends who checking on you and the other ones are they're not equipped to do that and maybe you shouldn't expect it of them am I wrong.
I don't think you're wrong. I think girlfriend you're right. I too have noticed this about my relationships with men fairly across the board. Steve you're an exception.
You do ask me how I am and when I tell you you actually ask more questions and various times in my life if you knew that things were happening you'd say you know I'm here for you if you want to give me a call you know and I I think that you have obviously a sort of emotional intelligence and that desire to make that emotional connection.
That's a little rare among your male species your straight male species but you know I will say this is something girlfriend I struggled with too because you know I've sometimes felt really annoyed and angry I had a couple of my best you know friends in graduate school where these two guys who were in the program with me they were they were not just men they were they were younger than me.
And we were great buds but there was definitely this dynamic of like that I was kind of this this mother figure and I do think that this has happened fairly often in my friendships with men where you know like I'm the one who can sort of provide for them or take care of them or hear listen to them when they're in crisis but would I go to them.
It's not for my problem.
But you know what I came to is that's okay you know to me this seems like it's in the category of you know basically what you were saying Steve like not every friend is going to be everything to you and I also believe that either one of those guys if I picked up my phone right now and call them and said I really need to talk to you they would talk to me you know and I think that part of this idea really across the board of making all our friendships work because I I could list you know 25 friends.
And there would be some qualities they share some of the things that they all give me and then and then there would be some qualities that are unique to them and I think that the most important thing is that I know that I value them in my life and that I feel valued in theirs and sort of ask everyone to be able to do the same things is impossible and frankly you know girlfriend I bet you have this problem too.
And some of my women friends are like this too. I have some some of my best women friends if I assert myself and say I need to talk to you about my marriage they'll have that conversation but they're never going to ask right and I think there is an aspect here girlfriend in which sometimes women in this with this dynamic and these concerns will fall into a pattern of trying to model for these guys the way that they should behave towards you.
And really you have the right to put the touch on them and say hey I know we're just joking around everything but there's a little something more serious that's on my heart without expecting that they're going to come to that on their own because for whatever set of reasons that really isn't the business of the friendship in a certain way they just can't do that but that doesn't mean that they don't want to know the real you.
You know girlfriend one of the most enlightening experiences for me when it comes to watching men and friendships and women and friendships is you know the close up view that I've had with my husband watching him with his friends we kind of have this running joke that you know he'll talk to a friend and I'll have assumed that they've talked deeply about the relationships and you know and I'll say well what did you talk to Peter about we have this we're really good friends with this couple Peter and Dorothy.
And you know we often will get together and we recently went hiking in Vermont together you know and we're hiking along for hours you know and Dorothy and I you know we go through the whole thing the family and the children and the relation the marriages and the it's all the emotional like deep stuff right and then you know we get to the end of this walk and I'm saying a Brian what do you and Peter talk about books basketball music you know they talk about that's a bad.
Yeah and I always joke our running joke is Brian always his first answer is will we talk all about our relationship that's you know and it was funny about it is of course what I come to realize is in some ways basketball books music this is Brian's way of having intimacy with his friends and it's also true that he has a deep emotional connection to Peter and to many of his other male friends and he knows that they love each other he knows if he ever really needed to have you know that emotional talk that I have.
Every day as a matter of course with my female friends that you know Peter and his other close circle of friends would be there for him and they would have that conversation right but they would rather talk about basketball they would rather talk about basketball and you know that's just the way it is and I frankly used to feel a tiny bit judgment of that like you should be delving deeper this is you know you should deepen those bonds but what I realized is that that's just my idea should be talking more about basketball that's right but I don't impose it on you.
Well this is what you and Brian do too you know you talk about this sort of stuff.
Yeah I mean it's interesting as you were talking I was like well you know we've had a talk about what's going on in a deeper way with his mom's passing and stuff we had that talk
I really want to know I knew that was going on but last night we just played ping pong.
Yeah and talk about the new roots brings team button.
That's right that was it.
So girlfriend I would just caution you like you know I think Steve's advice to say well you know keep the bonds matter most but I would also say
you know don't discard every bond that doesn't give you everything you want okay not every friendship is going to give you everything and you know sometimes it is nice just to play ping pong with somebody.
Long live ping pong.
Long live ping pong.
Okay next letter.
Dear sugars I am 46 and still happy and in love with my husband who I've been with for many years.
We have a mutual good friend that we both knew before we met.
We have many friends like that as we grew up in the same neighborhood and knew many of the same people but didn't end up crossing paths until we were in our later 20s.
One friend though has been acting in a way that makes me uncomfortable and anger's both me and my husband will call this friend Frank.
He's always had an openly perverted personality uses inappropriate humor and is flirtatious but in the past has kept it funny and impersonal.
Everyone knows that's just Frank.
I've never been bothered by it until recently when it became personal.
A couple of years ago Frank texted me when I was at work.
He started flirting heavily which caught me off guard and even asked me for the address from my office so he could come by.
I didn't respond further.
The next day he texted me and said he was sorry he was so out of line.
He said he'd been drinking and didn't mean to be so obnoxious.
I said don't worry about it.
My husband and I talked about how the text conversation got weird. I had my husband read the text to make sure I wasn't overreacting.
My husband felt betrayed by Frank's behavior and told me that Frank had been unfaithful to his wife in the past.
This was news to me. I realized then Frank isn't just all talk.
Last summer my husband worked a lot of overtime.
While he was working I attended several social events with our group of friends that includes Frank and his wife too, whom I like very much and also consider him.
At one event Frank, after a few beers, sat down next to me and looked me in the eye and said,
have I ever told you that you've always been on my bucket list?
He meant of course having sex with me.
He went on and on about how he's attracted to me.
I was utterly stunned and embarrassed.
I didn't know what to say and was worried that someone would overhear him and think we were having an affair.
I made a lighthearted comment as if he'd been joking and excuse myself to talk to someone else.
Sugars, I know that Frank is at fault here and I know I've done nothing to lead him to think I would be interested in a relationship with him.
What is the best way for me to set him straight?
I have trouble being blunt even when I should be because I hate hurting another person's feelings.
I want to say something to Frank that makes it clear that his behavior isn't okay and must stop.
I'm not sure how to say it, partially because I know if I say something, he will say, oh I'm just joking and try to make me feel stupid.
I need help with making my point short, sweet and clear.
Please help me find the right words, sincerely, frankly, annoyed.
This is a very easy question to answer and a hard thing to carry out, especially for someone like you. It's very apparent to me that you are a people pleaser and somebody who likes to smooth things over and not make anyone uncomfortable.
But sometimes in life we are required to go against that natural thing that we're inclined to do and do the opposite thing.
And almost always that is a great test of our own strength and character and it leads to us becoming better people.
And this is going to be one of those moments for you, frankly, annoyed. You know the words, you know that Frank is acting inappropriately, he's not joking.
He has clearly some sexual desire or some sexual fantasy about you and you do not want him to share that with you anymore.
And don't make it okay, don't say I'm so flattered that you're trying all this stuff, it's wrong, it's inappropriate and you need to set the record straight.
It doesn't matter if you hurt his feelings, okay, he's not concerned about hurting yours by making you feel so humiliated.
So you need, frankly, annoyed to say, Frank, you have now numerous times sent me texts that are inappropriate and you've said things to me that are inappropriate.
I am married, I am not interested in having anything but a friendship with you and you must stop saying these things to me.
And if you don't stop saying these things to me, I am going to stop being your friend.
Let me take that one step further. I think that's absolutely all right on the money. I think he's being a bully.
And I think what you have to do to Frank in this moment is say, I have received this unwanted attention from you even after I've made it clear that I don't want it.
I've showed my husband your text and the next time you say one word that I deem inappropriate, your wife will know about it and it will be an issue in your marriage because you've made it an issue in my marriage.
This is the kind of hectoring and bullying that I do think is a byproduct of the larger sort of patriarchal overlay.
You just would almost impossible to think of a woman behaving this way towards a man. There's a kind of predatory nature to this.
And because you've rebuffed his advances, he's humiliated and ashamed and the way that he's dealing with that is pushing further bullying you, making things uncomfortable for you.
Even when he knows you're not interested, it's that moment where the spurned lover becomes your enemy.
And the only way to respond to that is by saying, you're messing with my marriage and my social circle and I am going to mess with your marriage and your social circle.
And you're supposed to, right. And if you really want to be enemies, will be enemies.
That's right. And I think too, I want to just say, you know, so much of your letter, you've rebuffed his advances.
But in a way that complies with essentially this very patriarchal social order and that is you don't want to make anyone uncomfortable.
You say something to him in a lighthearted way. I understand why you've done those things because Dross me, sister, I've done them too.
But we were both raised in a culture that expects women to sort of humor men who are being ghastly to them, to sort of get along and go along to keep the peace in your marriage or in your circle of friends.
And you know, I think that you just can't be the peacekeeper anymore and you need to be loud and proud if he does not listen to you when you tell him don't do that again.
I love Steve's advice. Bring it into his marriage. Bring it into your circle of friends too. Say out loud in front of all those people. If he says something to you like you're on my bucket list, look around the room and say he just told me that he would like to have sex with me.
You know, here we are married to other people who are allegedly friends. Right. It's like when you said last week to the letter writer, you know, when you see a moment where this guy is controlling you need to say, you know, the woman's concern was her boyfriend being controlling a manipulative call him out in that moment.
I think it's great advice. I think it might be impossible, frankly, annoyed for you. Just constitutionally, characterologically, to follow that advice.
But this guy has been sloppy. He sent you a bunch of inappropriate texts. It's evidence. It's there on your phone. And you could even put it if you don't if you want to really make it uncomfortational, you can say, listen, how do you think your wife would feel if I sent these texts to her and told her the various comments that you've made.
Because if you think she would think it's just a joke, we'll just test that theory out. If you're just joking around Frank, I call your bluff.
So you can see we're worked up about this. And the reason it is, frankly, annoyed is because the answer is clear.
You know, most of us want to be polite and smooth things over and make things happy and peaceful most of the time. But sometimes, you know, those bullies push us into the corner and we have to fight back.
Did you kill Marlene Johnson?
I think you're one of the first people to have actually asked from WBUR and ZSP media. This is beyond all repair. A new podcast about an unsolved murder that believe you questioning everything.
Somebody should be in jail for murdering my sister, a woman who's never been believed.
As long as they think I have done this, then they're not looking for who actually did this. And that's what makes it a cold case. No, it's a botched case. And a search for the truth, once and for all.
Wow, it just gets more interesting.
And you can't just find all repair. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts. Be careful. You're digging in a place that's been very peaceful for a while. Do it anyway. Dig.
Okay, I'm going to read the next letter, the last letter actually. Dear sugars. Recently, my closest friend told me he was in love with me. After a whole week of discussing what it would mean for our friendship, if we became romantically involved with each other, we decided we wanted to be in a relationship.
I originally wanted to test the waters without telling our friends, but he insisted that he wanted a relationship and that we should be open with everyone about it, our friends and families.
Two days later, we were having a conversation over text, and I mentioned that I'd told one of our mutual friends about our relationship just as he'd asked me to do.
His response was, I'm not sure this is worth shaking up our social structure. Soon it became clear that he was looking for an out from our relationship.
I'm not one to beg someone to be with me, so we ended the conversation and our relationship then and there over text. Two days after it began.
I told him I was humiliated and heartbroken, and I asked him to leave me alone. I haven't heard from him since.
My question is this sugars. What now? This is one of my most important friendships. We've been in constant contact for more than a year.
Can our friendship survive this? Should I want it to? Clearly this is not the man for me when it comes to love, but I'm most upset that he would treat a friend this way.
Was this a lapse in judgment or does it speak to his character? It's okay for him to not want to be with me romantically, even though he told me he's been in love with me for months, but I'm torn about what comes next and how to handle it.
Signed bewildered friend. This is a lapse in judgment that does speak to his character. This is a catch and release kind of guy.
The whole idea is to catch and the moment you've got it, then you release. Boy, I'll tell you what a trap door he opened underneath you.
The moment you say, hey, this crazy thing is happening. I need to tell you because my boyfriend, I guess, told me I should. He just drops you. Like a hot potato by text.
Oh my God. Clearly you're not going to be romantically involved with him. He sounds like until he gets his shit seriously straightened out and comes to you with an apology and an explanation. I wouldn't let him anywhere near you. And I know that's a painful thing to say because you're still attached to the idea that you're going to retain this friendship.
I'm sorry. That is take the romance out of it. That is not how a friend behaves.
I agree. Mr. you've filled your friend and I think that this sounds kind of harsh, but I think you had a breakup and he treated you badly and you decided to part ways and you told him not to contact you anymore.
And I think that you need to just go forward and there are other people with whom you can be friends. And there's also the possibility that he'll circle back to you. But let him do that work.
I mean, if we all mess up, we all get confused. We all say one thing at one point and then and can't keep that promise. And I think that, you know, if he comes to that realization that in fact he wronged you and that he does value your friendship, let him be the one to come to you and say that.
What I really hope you won't do is go crawling back to him and say, please, please, please, you know, be nice to me again because I just value our friendship too much even though you treated me like shit.
You know, the person who did the wrong needs to take responsibility for that and say, I'm sorry and I want to make amends.
And so be a wilder friend. If indeed this friend of yours comes to you and says this, then let him back in and see what happens and see if those regrets are sincere.
But I don't see any reason for you to loop back and say, oh, I value this friendship so much it must be saved because he destroyed it.
And so, you know, you just need to walk forward, my dear. Just walk forward and put this guy behind you.
And to circle back to the, you know, the first letter that we talked about, which was very much about, you know, what are the perils when men and women had a sexual men and women engage in a friendship.
And can't it always lead to doesn't isn't inevitable that there are romantic feelings that come up, desirous feelings.
And can a friendship possibly survive that? And the answer to all those questions is, yeah, but we got to hold up our ends of the bargain.
And gently or more firmly declare, if you want my friendship, here's what makes you worthy of it, right?
A basic level of consideration. You don't have to be the sensitive guy who reaches out, but you can't run over me with a Mack truck of love.
And then expect me to dust myself up and say, please can I have another?
Yeah.
We're done. We're done.
We have no more letters.
We have completely exhausted any pop. But actually, I want to throw out a challenge to our listener, Cheryl, if I might.
Okay.
You will have noticed that many of our listeners and a lot of our letter writers are women.
I'm curious because I do run into a lot of many listened to the show. I would love just to get some feedback and maybe even some questions from men who are struggling with their friendships with women.
So I hear by throw down that gauntlet. And I, you know what I mean? I would like to hear what it is like from the other direction.
And I know that all of our listeners are at least based on what we read are deeply thoughtful people who aren't just going to ask us, what doesn't she like basketball more?
Yeah. Well, I wonder if there is that corollary. Why the hell does she always want to talk?
It's like deep thoughts with the ladies. You know what I'm saying?
Right.
But you know, I think that there is that kind of thing where men are listening, but not necessarily reaching out to communicate.
And that's what I am saying here.
So if you're doing, who's out there? Guess what we're going to do, a theme show on basketball.
Yes.
You dream.
Right.
It's all your sports related questions. And I'll do my very best to answer them.
Yeah. Exactly. And I'll just remain in a silent state of hysterics.
All right.
Okay. This has been another episode of Dio Chica Radio. We're produced by WBWR in Boston.
We're produced and edited by Amri Severtzinn. We're recording a talk back sound in Visual and Portland, Oregon. Our engineer is Josh Melman.
Our theme music is by the Portland band Wunderly. Vocals are by Liz Weiss.
Please subscribe to Dio Chica Radio on iTunes or on your favorite podcast app.
And follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Dio Chica Radio. You can also write us those sports related, you know, conundrums at Dio Chica Radio at gmail.com.
Yes. Absolutely. Dude Hans. We want to hear from you, Hans.
