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Courtney, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, it's our pleasure.
So how would you get started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
All right. My name is Courtney Kelly.
I have two first things.
So some people call me Kelly.
Completely okay if you do.
I was born into Orleans, Louisiana and I currently reside in Dallas, Texas.
So when I was about 16, Hurricane Katrina hit and I decided to become a civil engineer, which also merely let me to study civil engineering at SMU and I have a degree in civil engineering in math and undergrad, a massive degree in civil engineering and I recently finished my MBA from Lamar University down in Beaumont, Texas.
So that's a bit about medication.
What do I do now? A couple of things.
First thing is I am a construction project manager.
So I've been working on what's deemed heavy civil construction projects for the past 10 years and those include things such as airports, roads, bridges and underground utilities.
So all of the things that a society needs in order to thrive right where we are today, you drove on someone's road that was paid.
There's probably utilities underneath it and a lot of those things you don't want in the breaker fail.
So that's what I focused on for the first 10 years of my career.
And most recently I switched to what's considered commercial construction.
My first project was actually at my alma mater at SMU and it was a renovation of a 95 year old residence hall which I happened to have moved in 14 years ago when I first started at SMU.
So it was like an episode of Fix This Old House.
Most recently I met another university, Texas woman's university, Abandoned in Texas doing some renovation projects on that campus as well.
So that's a little bit about my my official career.
I have a couple of side things that I do, one of which I'm super proud of.
I recently became an author with the publishing of Celeste's A City.
It's a children's book about a little girl named Celeste who grows up in New Orleans and has to evacuate because of Katrina.
Sound familiar? Yeah, it's my story.
So I just like Celeste, Celeste ends up growing up to become a civil engineer and she saves a city from flooding by restoring a wetlands along the coast of Louisiana.
So that's my author wing.
I also bake treats for rabbits.
I'll say it again because people usually don't like catch it the first time but I bake treats for rabbits.
So I have a little bunny, his name is Albus, ALBUS, like Albus Dumbledore, and I sell treats to other bunnies and their bunny parents.
That is impressive. My goodness, you have a lot of things going on and everything that you do is at such a high level.
And so let's continue to set the stage, Courtney, because with your incredibly diverse background, not just with the engineering and the project management and but also your entrepreneurial wing, you're having difficult conversations all the time.
Can you tell us what those difficult conversations look like in the in the construction world that you're having?
Yeah, so construction is very it's a very high-paced environment.
You have a lot of different stakeholders, right?
You have the person as an owner who will ultimately inherit the facility as you're building.
You have self-contractors, you have your own internal folks, and there's a lot of conflict that that occurs.
A lot of times we're dealing with situations where someone has designed something on a sheet of paper and we go out in the building and we try to build it and it doesn't necessarily jive with what's on a paper.
And so we have conflicts about constructability.
And who's responsible for resolving that complex?
There are a lot of conversations about money, right?
A lot of construction companies, most of the ones that I know or a for-profit organization.
So everything that happens has to get paid by someone.
You're either going to eat the money yourself and kind of take the loss or you're going to try to get that paid-body owner.
So sometimes sales conversations can be pretty tricky because the owners like look, only have $500,000 to pay for this and we're like, well, it's going to cost 750.
What are we going to do about it?
So you have to use different tactics and strategies to get everyone on the same page and to really get some point where there's a kind of win-win situation because you don't know what a status of the project.
You don't know what's going to come next in the future.
So a part of it too is building relationships across the board to ensure that windows conflicts arise.
You can walk away from them and when you get into the next arena with that same person, they aren't looking at you like, man, I really don't want to deal with that person again and let me just go to the next person.
This is great and there are a lot of gems that you had in your response there but I want to really zoom in on this because the sequencing is important because you said we want to make sure that we're building relationships so that when the conflicts arise and those are inevitable, we have a good relationship that's a foundation because I think a lot of times what ends up happening is that conflict arises and then you say, oh yeah, I'm supposed to build relationships and build more and things like that and we try to do it when the conflict has already arisen.
But what you're saying is like this is essentially a prophylactic measure beforehand.
We're really focusing on the conversation on the relationship with the other side.
Can you paint a picture of what that looks like for you?
Yeah, so it actually starts in construction well before we ever win a project.
We're trying to build relationships with all of those future stakeholders when there really isn't anything that either party is necessarily going to get out of it immediately, right?
There isn't like an immediate return on on this investment.
So that starts with just trying to get to know people on a very personal level and what we like to consider deep relationships.
So not just someone's name or where they're from but knowing about their family, knowing about their likes and dislikes actually like trying to become friends with them because you guys know if your friends with someone is harder, it's easier to get through some of those harder times together than it is with a stranger, right?
And if you you're talking to a stranger, it might be easier for you to say later like, hey, I don't really care about this person because I don't really notice person.
So we start off with the intent that I'm going to develop a relationship with whoever it may be and start working on that from the get go.
So by the time we actually get to the point where we're signing the contracts, great everybody celebrating and then like a week later they're like, oh, you guys are behind schedule.
You know, nobody's throwing up their hands.
It's like, oh, you're behind schedule, but I notice you'll get us at a finish line.
So I'm not worried about it because we already have a relationship established and I trust you and I trust that you're going to treat me with respect and you're not going to do anything that's disingenuous.
This is just a hiccup and we're going to be okay at the end of it.
Yeah, that's great. And really the key word there is trust because the more trust you have in the relationship, the more resilient it is in the face of conflict.
And there's no real magic behind it.
The magic is just psychology.
It's just repeated positive interactions with the other person.
And how do you, like what is the main thing we're trying to show?
We're just trying to show that we care.
Like that's all friendship is.
It's two people who care about each other.
And that's really it. And when you just say, I'm trying to become their friend by caring about the things that they care about, they have a family to care about that.
Let's talk about it. Right?
You have interest. You have hobbies.
That's something you care about.
I care about it too. Let's talk about it.
Like it's really that simple.
And I think the one of the keys is recognizing that you have to make that investment.
Even when there's nothing transactionally that you can benefit in that moment because I think that makes it clear that it's been more genuine too.
Yeah, that's totally it.
Yeah, this is this is great.
And one of the things that you mentioned, one of the revelations that you had with these conflicts is that they're often a lot easier than you anticipated.
Can you tell the listeners about that?
Yeah, I think especially early in my career, I didn't really get it or understand it to be the same way that I do now.
And I thought that everything had to be a battle.
Like, all right, we're going to war.
Like let's get our ammo and like prepare an advance, you know, for this, for this, whatever, whatever conflict it may be.
But now I'm realizing that if I want to assume that it's going to be complex and to go in with the understanding that whoever's on the opposite side of the table, there's something that they're after.
There's something that's motivating their decision making.
Maybe it's their supervisor is howling them for a certain deliverable.
Maybe it's they really don't have the money and they're not going to tell you that, but you know, they're just going to keep arguing and challenging you.
The quicker that I was able to, and the quicker that I am able to figure out what is the motivating factor behind their decision making and behind the the meaner at which they're handling the situation, the quicker I can realize how I need to pivot, how I need to change my strategy.
Maybe I've been saying, well, you know, I need this money for this.
And instead I need to say, you know, I need this money, but let's work together through this to figure out how can we make this happen.
So really trying to put myself in air shoes and see it through their eyes.
And then knowing that information, what resources do I have between me and my team?
So you kind of come to the table at a place where they can go back to the city.
We're going to be like, look, this is a situation they're working on it.
Here's how they've helped me get to a yes.
And then it makes everybody look good at the end of the day.
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Absolutely. And it starts with that mindset shift.
Because like you said at the beginning, you were saying, all right, we're going to war.
That's what it's about.
You have that really that combative mindset.
And that's just called being a human.
That's how we are kind of designed to think just psychologically.
That's how we think about it.
And then sociologically too, when we think about how society views conflict, it's usually you or me proposition.
I win, you lose. Those are the options.
But then you realize, no, this is a problem solving endeavor.
We can try to make it a win-win by figuring out what it is that you need and what it is that I need and how those overlap.
And a lot of times, if we signed a contract, our interests are aligned.
It just feels like we're against each other when conflict arises.
And so when it comes to recognizing that and getting into that mindset, how were you actually able to say in your head Courtney, all right, this is the mindset shift I need to make in order to make these strategic changes at the table.
So I try to kind of read people very well.
And it's a little bit harder to do through email course, but especially we can have a face-to-face conversation.
I'm picking up on clues from that person.
Do they get a little bit anxious when I use certain words when we're talking about that specific situation?
Do I hear something from them that they're telling me that I'm not really listening to?
I might be picking out a paint color and it keeps saying, well, you know, we really want to stick to the traditional look, but every time that I bring something to the table is a modern look.
That's me not listening.
That's me not understanding what their motivating factor is again, there may be a reason why they have to make certain decisions.
So I really try to use emotional intelligence for lack of a better term to get a better understanding of what that person is getting at.
And then also if I don't get the answer or the results that I'm looking for in a timely manner, that's usually kind of a trigger point like, hey, this is not going in the right direction.
Let me figure out what do I need to do to pivot to turn the ship around so that it is going in the right direction now.
So that could be, I've sent somebody, you know, two emails and they've been really nasty to your applies.
Okay, that's enough. Time to have a face-to-face conversation with this person or phone call with this person and get down to the bottom of what's going on.
And we're having, we call them OACs, but I want to architect contractor meetings.
If I notice if somebody's kind of like snubbing me in an OAC, all right, after that meeting, let's go up to them and see, hey, what's going on here?
Is everything okay? And so part of it is understanding the person, part of it's understanding the situation, and being more reactive sooner than letting it kind of play out.
Because usually it's not going to play out in your favor or it's not going to play out in your favor as well if you don't kind of get to the problem quickly and try to resolve it.
Yeah, so this is so good because what you're recognizing is that we have to make those pivots as necessary, but you're going to make those pivots based on the read that you're making.
And it's so funny, no matter what industry that we talk about with negotiation, conflict resolution, human interaction, emotional intelligence is going to be a part of it.
I don't think many people, when they look at the construction industry, they say, okay, emotional intelligence, that's going to be the separating factor, but it is because we're still all humans, that's what it comes down to.
And I think it's going to be really easy for people to focus on the scope of work, the money, the time, whether or not we're delivering on time, all of those things and focus on those, like the numbers.
But when it comes down to it, it's still people at the end of the day, and emotional intelligence is really what what separates.
So that's that's just re like refreshing to hear that in every single industry.
And one of the things that you mentioned is you recognize that at some point you're going to need to adjust your strategy based on the reads that you're getting.
And then recognize sometimes if things aren't changing in a timely manner, that's the signal to you.
How do you know what the right time is to make an adjustment?
I mean, honestly, this is probably going to sound like, I don't know, whatever, but I just kind of get a feeling for things like almost like a six sense is like, all right, something's not right here or something is not going away.
Did I need to go? It's time to pivot.
And so it's something that I can necessarily changeably, like say, okay, at this point in time in every conversation conflict, XYZ happens.
It's just I'm talking as a one and I start getting this feeling.
And usually if I get that into it, I guess we'll call it intuitive understanding of something being up or something being a miss, then I'm like, all right, let's see something about it.
If everything's hunky-dory and I'm like, it was like bad vibes and I'll just keep going, you know, the way to things have been going.
But usually I get some type of indication like things are not going okay, it's time to do something different.
Love it. And that was the answer I was hoping you were going to get.
Because I think a lot of people listening would say, okay, what is the thing?
What's the sign? Should I wait three days?
It's 17 hours? What is the number?
There is no number. That's what makes it tricky.
But also that's the thing that should encourage all of you.
Like there's nothing necessarily special that some expert negotiators have that you don't have where we have these objective metrics to go off of.
A lot of it is intuition and feel.
But what you're hearing from Courtney is that listen, like I feel something, I'm sensing something.
I don't exactly know what it is, but I know that I should do something about it.
Like the solution is always proactivity.
It's either changing your strategy or just getting curious, asking questions to figure out what is, like what is it that's coming from them that's giving you that feeling, but something needs to be done.
And I think a lot of times what ends up happening is we get that feeling and we're like, hmm, I'm reading something.
I'm not exactly sure what it is.
I'm going to do nothing about it.
Yeah. And like kind of let the negotiation happen to me.
Yeah, that usually doesn't work out well.
Because then something something big blows up and it's like, man, if I had done something when I first got that feeling, I probably could have mitigated this situation.
Exactly. And again, it just we have to be proactive.
But it speaks to what it is that we talked about earlier.
What you said, a lot of times it's a lot easier than you thought it was going to be.
And that's because as we're seeing in this interview, you're very good at being proactive and addressing things when they're not that big of an issue.
Because problems grow if they're not that if you don't attend to them.
So one of the things is we have to jump and take action, even though it might be scary.
But the faster you take action, the more proactive you are, the more manageable the conflict is.
Yep. That's it. Exactly.
Yeah. Now this is good. Now, you're coming into this field.
It's a very technical field.
You have a lot of experience.
But you said you've described yourself as a spotted unicorn.
Yes. In the industry. Tell the listeners about that.
Yeah. So I call myself a spotted unicorn because I'm a black woman and there's just aren't that many of us in the work that I do.
And you'll look as statistics and as a six six, I think paying a rosy picture because a lot of the black women, they're in administrative roles.
And we really need those people.
They're really the lifelet of the construction projects and keep everyone going.
But where there is a severe lack is in black women in the operation side of things doing what I do actually on the job site, booths on the ground, managing the construction activities.
So usually there'll be times that I go in a room and people thought that they were in the wrong meeting because I was sitting at the table.
So I kind of started calling myself a spotted unicorn because I was usually the only black person in a room.
Or if there was another black, another black person in a room, I was the only female and vice versa.
There's another woman in a room.
I was still only black woman.
And so I've just selectively called myself the spotted unicorn ever since I started thinking about it that way.
Yeah. It's, and you know, for me coming as a black man in this industry too, I can definitely empathize with how you're feeling in that situation.
And I think one of the most encouraging things is the fact that you were able to overcome that barrier.
You're still able to be successful.
And now I like thinking about it from the internal side first from the inside out.
Now a lot of times people can find themselves in the situation where they're the only person who looks at them.
They only have the, they're the only person with these like this background, whatever it happens to be for whatever reason you feel othered.
And then that almost operates as like a self-fulfilling prophecy or a self-defeating prophecy where we're just kind of say, oh, I'm the only person here.
People will not accept me.
They will not take me seriously.
And then as a result, we don't shoot our shots or we do say what we wanted to, what we want to say, but we don't say it with confidence.
So we're less effective and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
So internally for you, how were you able to say, yes, I'm the only person who looks like me in this room, but I still belong and I'm still going to stand up and advocate for myself and say what needs to be said.
I think I answered it's two ways.
So ever since I was little, as young as I can remember, my parents told me that I'd be the first black president of America.
So Barack Obama beat me to it, but that's okay.
So I kind of came came up with this mindset that whatever room I walk into, that's my territory, that there's nothing no no door that can kind of be kept close for me.
And I really try to live into that.
Also, I think that I've been strategically positioned to be where I am, to be this person that is going to go before and open up the doors wider for those who come after me and for those who are here with me right now.
And so for instance, I went to SMU for college.
I remember looking at a book of America's most competitive colleges.
I think it was 100 most competitive colleges in SMU at that time.
The black population, I think, was only 500 students out of I think 11,000 students.
So I went into that environment knowing that I'd probably be the only black person in some of my classes, especially going to engineering.
I would probably be one of very few women.
And those spaces really prepared me for what I'm doing right now.
So I can confidently go into any room and be the only, you know, fill in a blank.
And I feel completely confident in myself and my abilities.
And I don't really look for acceptance from other people.
I know my calling, I know who I am and how I've gotten to where I am.
And I also have a huge support system.
So when when negative things you happen in that space, I know that there are people who are so going to back me up and support me and keep me motivated to move forward.
Oh, this is so good. I'm taking so many notes here.
This is really good. So first, like you said, any any room you go into, that's your territory.
Essentially, you're saying, I belong.
I belong wherever I happen to be, I belong there.
And so there's not a question for you in that situation.
So that's a source of confidence.
And then the next one is you have purpose because you're going into these meetings with obviously the professional goal.
But also you recognize that your success paves the way for the success of other people.
So it's bigger than you.
It's not just you going in for yourself.
It's you recognizing that your success leads to the success of others.
And so that propels you as well.
And I love that last part that you said where you said you're not looking for acceptance for from other people.
And what's really interesting is counterintuitively is that when you have that level of confidence, when you have that level of swag where you don't need the acceptance from other people, that is attractive.
That is a luring because people recognize most people don't have that.
And so what is it about this Courtney Kelly person that makes her so confident in herself?
That's really interesting.
So it's a level of security that most people don't have and that draws people to you.
So even though you're not looking for acceptance, it makes it more likely for you to find acceptance because you've already accepted yourself first and other people follow suit when you when they see you have that level of confidence too.
Yeah, and I also I'll add to that sometimes people don't really want to accept me right.
I'll go into a meeting and they don't want to make eye contact.
They kind of don't want to listen to my opinion.
Those people eventually come around.
It may take some time, but eventually they come around.
So before, you know, I might go in and be like, hmm, that person's not really feeling me like this is going to be a problem.
And I'm like, you know what?
Let them keep doing whatever they're doing.
Like eventually they'll realize and they'll recognize and everybody will be on the same page.
So it's kind of like just to show that off a moment like it'll be all right in the end.
Absolutely. And there's a thing too because I think a lot of times we can create these narratives that might not even be true, right?
Because the person might just be standoffice in general.
They might be floated warm in general.
But I think a lot of time if you are have have a history of being othered whether it's race, gender, whatever it happens to be, our minds automatically go to, oh, it's because I'm black.
Oh, it's because I'm a woman or something like that.
It might be. It might not be.
They might be having a bad day.
But the thing the reality is just going way back to what we were talking about before when we're talking about relationship building.
It takes time. The more positive interactions you have with people, the more trust you have and the more they like you, then they become your friends.
Different people have a different length of time that it takes for them to warm up.
And so whatever the barrier is, it might be a bias.
It might be skepticism.
They might be having a stomachache that day.
We don't know. It's okay.
But you read the room. You say, okay, they're not making eye contact with me the same way they're making eye contact with other people.
I don't know what that is, but it is a data point that I have logged.
Great. So my relationship building approach is going to be slightly different with this person versus that person because there are this other person is already more engaged.
So I'll engage with them a different way.
Right? And so again, it goes back to emotional intelligence reading the room, but being persistent and confident in yourself.
And you can overcome that barrier regardless of what it is.
Yep. I love it. No, this is great.
This is great. Well, listen, we are right about time at time at this point.
But before you go, I want you to remind the listeners about your book and some of the exciting things you're working on and how they can get in touch with you.
Yeah. So my book is the last season city.
It was actually just translated into French in German.
So that's available now.
It will soon be available in Spanish.
I'm almost at a thousand copy sold.
So super excited about that as a self published author.
It's like a huge accomplishment.
So you can find the book anywhere the books are sold as well as on my website, www.courtneykellybooks.com.
Also on Instagram and Facebook at Courtney Kelly books.
Perfect. Courtney really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you, Pat. I mean, this was great.
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