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Hi everyone, I'm Charlie Cox.
Join us on Disney Plus as we talk with the cast and crew of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again.
What haven't you gotten to do as Daredevil?
Being the Avengers.
Charlie and Vincent came to play.
I get emotional when I think about it.
One of the great finales of any episode we've ever done.
We are going to play Truth or Daredevil.
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Fantastic.
You guys go hard man.
Daredevil born again official podcast tuesdays and stream season two of marvel television's daredevil born again on disney plus.
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Welcome to the History Extra podcast.
In our latest Sunday series we've been exploring the life and reign of Elizabeth I, and in today's third episode, historian Nicola Tallis tells Rachel Dinning about the threats the Queen faced both from within and without.
Hello and welcome back to our four-part History Extra podcast series on the life of Elizabeth I.
I'm Rachel Dinning and today I'm joined by Dr Nicola Tallis, a leading expert in 16th century history and author of many books on Elizabeth.
Nicola has spent years researching and writing about Elizabeth's reign, and today she's helping us explore some of the more perilous challenges of the Queen's life, from rivals plotting against her conspiracies in her own court and the looming danger of Spain's Armada.
So Nicola, to start the podcast today, I want to talk about one of the defining challenges of Elizabeth's middle years, which was actually her cousin, Mary Queen of Scots.
So to start, how did Mary Queen of Scots become a problem for Elizabeth?
Well, Mary was a problem for Elizabeth from the very start because she was a Catholic cousin who had a strong claim to the English throne in her own right.
So that already got Elizabeth's back up, most definitely.
And she was also a Catholic figurehead for those who were opposed to Elizabeth's rule or for those who loathed Protestantism.
And she also had very strong foreign connections, chiefly in France, where she was briefly queen consort.
And the problem where Mary was concerned really intensified for Elizabeth when Mary was forced to abdicate from the throne of Scotland and fled to England, where she sought refuge with Elizabeth.
And this turned Mary from a potential concubine, distant threat, to a very, very near and potent problem.
And explain a bit more about Mary's claim to the English throne.
So we know that they were cousins.
Why did Mary have a claim to the English throne?
Well, Mary was a great-granddaughter of Henry VII.
Elizabeth was a Mary, was a granddaughter of Margaret, Queen of Scotland, who was Henry VII's daughter, and this did give her a very strong claim to the throne, and especially because many people were of the view that Elizabeth was illegitimate at this time and this blood relationship made her Elizabeth's cousin once removed.
But it's through Henry VII that she has that crucial claim to the throne.
So the two queens never actually met in person.
Despite portrayals, people at home might have seen the 2018 film Mary Queen of Scots with Margot Robbie and Sia Sharonan.
Their only relationship that we can glean from is from the letters that they sent to each other.
What do we know about what they said to one another?
Well, these letters are numerous.
And, like you say, they are a crucial source when we're trying to unpick that relationship between the two cousins.
And what I find quite extraordinary when we look at them is that we also sort of see glimpses of their personality from them.
So Mary is very open, very passionate.
Elizabeth is far more sort of guarded in what she says and The letters, to begin with they do take on quite an affectionate tone.
They often refer to themselves as sisters.
They exchange compliments, as would have been expected of one another.
But we see that as time goes on and events progress, the letters they do in some sense become quite frank.
So certainly this is true on Elizabeth's side.
So we see.
For example, when Mary's second husband, Henry Lord Darnley, was murdered, Elizabeth writes to Mary in no uncertain terms, urging her to ensure that those who are responsible are punished.
She makes it very clear that this is what she would expect her to do.
And when Mary sort of goes the other way and she marries Lord Bothwell, who is the man many believe is responsible for Darnley's murder.
Elizabeth is utterly horrified at this.
And she makes this very, very clear in the language that she uses to Mary in her letters.
She basically, she says, how could a worse choice be made for your honour than Bothwell?
I mean, it doesn't get any more plain and frank than that.
And I think that Mary responds to Elizabeth's coldness, if you like, in even more sort of passionate terms.
And again we see that when Mary is forced to abdicate from the Scottish throne and she flees across the border, throws herself on Elizabeth's mercy, she urges Elizabeth in a letter to hurry up and come and collect her, because she's not even living the life that's fitting for a gentlewoman, let alone a queen.
She's not averse to exaggeration either.
Mary's very, very passionate.
And again.
As that relationship changes and Mary ends up a prisoner in Elizabeth's realm, she is not above putting her feelings and her pleas in letters to Elizabeth.
She desperately begs Elizabeth to help her.
She urges her freedom.
So the relationship between the two queens can be really well charted between these letters and we see a real change in them over time as events unfold.
So some of the dialogue in that film likely came from the relationship we can see through these letters.
So Mary arrives in England in 1568.
She's fleeing an uprising in Scotland following the death of her husband, Lord Darnley, who you've just described.
And this creates this impossible situation for Elizabeth.
What once was a bit of a distant threat, obviously she's now in England.
What were Elizabeth's options for dealing with Mary at this time?
And I suppose what were the risks to Elizabeth too?
She has several options.
First and foremost, she could have helped to restore Mary, which is what Mary sought in the first instance.
But If she did that, she was placing herself in a very difficult situation, because Mary was still very, very unpopular in Scotland.
And so Elizabeth may have been unnecessarily embroiling herself in affairs that didn't actually really concern her a great deal.
So restoration is not really a great option for Elizabeth.
There's also the possibility of sending Mary into foreign exile abroad.
And again, that's something that Mary considers as quite a good option at one point as well.
But this would have been very dangerous where Elizabeth was concerned, because many still regard Mary as being the legitimate heir to the English throne.
So that could have placed Elizabeth's very life in great jeopardy.
So if she sends Mary away, she could foster a group of people around her that then they come and seize the throne.
Is that the fear?
Exactly that, because Mary has got a lot of support in Catholic Europe, particularly in France and also in Spain.
So Elizabeth was very, very vulnerable in this situation.
And I think it's actually probably one of the most sensible things that she did, choosing not to send Mary into foreign exile.
And then we have the option that Elizabeth does actually go for, which is imprisonment, which I guess offers a sort of middle ground, because it is, Or it could be, a temporary solution that offered some flexibility and could be sort of reviewed over time.
But it also meant that Mary could be kept under surveillance.
Elizabeth could monitor what was going on.
She could monitor Mary's letters, who she was speaking to and communicating with.
And she also had the option to change that tactic as events dictated.
So I think on Elizabeth's part, it's quite a savvy move doing that.
Obviously, one that's not very popular with Mary.
Keep her under lock and key.
Keep her under her watchful eye so she knows what's going on.
Yeah.
And how long did this imprisonment go on for?
Well, it went on for 19 years, which I think is probably far longer than either Elizabeth or Mary could ever have envisaged.
But we need to be clear about the imprisonment.
It's not quite the same thing as when Elizabeth, for example, was imprisoned by her sister Mary, in the Tower of London.
What was Mary, Queen of Scots life under imprisonment under Elizabeth?
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
It's a far more well to begin with when Mary is first imprisoned in Carlisle Castle.
It's a relatively relaxed kind of imprisonment.
She still has ladies, luxuries, all of those kinds of things.
As she is moved, as Mary is moved further south, that imprisonment does become more and more stringent.
But let's be clear, she's still not having a terrible time of it.
She still has access to cooks.
She still has pets.
She is able to ride horses, play golf, do things that Elizabeth would never have been able to do while she was a prisoner in the Tower.
So I suppose it's almost like she is, to some intents and purposes, living the lifestyle of a highborn woman, just one who doesn't have control of her own life and can't leave without the permission of the Queen.
So obviously time passes and Elizabeth, in this time whilst Mary's imprisoned, is probably sort of stewing over the Mary problem at various points.
And eventually one conspiracy seals Mary, Queen of Scots, fate.
And this is the Babington plot of 1586.
Before we go into a bit more of the Babington plot, this brings us on to the story of Elizabeth's spy master, Francis Walsingham.
So can you just tell us a bit about who Francis Walsingham was?
Yeah, so Francis Walsingham is one of the most prominent counsellors of Elizabeth's later reign.
He was someone who was steadfastly and wholeheartedly loyal to Elizabeth's.
He had also spent some time in France where he had witnessed the St.
Bartholomew's Day massacre of Protestants.
And this had a huge impact on his anti-Catholic sentiments, I suppose.
But yeah, he was the man who was really responsible for organising Elizabeth's spy network.
And that spy network was crucial really, because it uncovered and thwarted a number of Catholic plots against Elizabeth during her reign.
And it, in the end, directly contributed to the removal of Mary, Queen of Scots.
So let's go into that.
What was the Babington plot of 1586 and how did it lead to Mary, Queen of Scots downfall?
The Babington plot is a plot that was engineered, as you say, in 1586 and gained its name from a gentleman called Anthony Babington, who had served as a page in the household of the Earl of Shrewsbury, which is where he encountered Mary, Queen of Scots.
And he harboured this almost romantic kind of sentiment towards her and felt that he could be the one to rescue her.
And it's a really interesting plot to explore because it sees a number of coded letters smuggled into Mary by means of a double agent called Gilbert Gifford in a beer barrel, which is ingenious in some ways.
And unbeknown to Mary.
These letters are being intercepted by Walsingham's agents and they are being transcribed broken, by Thomas Philippes, who is Walsingham's codebreaker.
Because I should have said all of these letters are written in code.
Mary was famous, of course, for the numerous codes that she created that she used for her letters during her imprisonment.
And the fact that Mary became embroiled in this plot at this time, I think, tells us a lot about her state of mind as well, because she was at a real low point.
At this point.
You know she had been imprisoned for over a decade and she was desperately, desperately craving her freedom.
A number of previous plots had come to nothing.
And really she was at her wits end.
And this plot provided her with a strand of hope.
So how did this all end?
Francis Walsingham and his spies uncover the letters going to Mary.
She's implicated.
Elizabeth is told.
What decision does Elizabeth make about Mary then?
Well, Mary was to begin with.
She was put on trial in October 1586 and she was found guilty of treason.
And But for Elizabeth, she was really, really conflicted and terribly tormented by this, because technically Mary had been found guilty of treason.
The punishment for treason is death.
But does that apply to a fellow anointed sovereign?
This is the problem that Elizabeth was faced with.
And she was riddled with anxiety over this because if she was to put her name to Mary's death warrant, she was basically saying that it was OK to allow the execution of an anointed queen.
So Elizabeth was worried that this might set a precedent for the future and her own life.
And she really deliberated over this.
She prevaricated over this.
She put it off.
And it was not until February, the 1st of February, that she eventually signed Mary's death warrant.
And it's very clear that this was something that had really troubled her conscience and that she did only very reluctantly.
And the order is immediately sent to Fotheringay Castle, where Mary is being imprisoned for her execution.
She is executed on the 8th of February, 1587.
And Elizabeth is immediately horrified, full of remorse, says that she didn't mean for that to happen and that she absolves herself of all blame.
Really,
She has her secretary, William Davison, who had handed her the death warrant, imprisoned in the, And she goes to great lengths to try and apologise to Mary's son, James VI of Scotland.
She says, I really didn't mean for that to happen.
I'm so sorry.
And it's clear that she feels very, very anxious of the consequences of Mary's execution.
For Elizabeth, it's been this very long drawn out question of what do I do with a rival?
Because that's what Mary has been for decades of Elizabeth's reign a rival who posed a very real threat and, in the end, a very deadly threat to Elizabeth.
What do you think the relationship between Elizabeth and Mary tells us about Elizabeth as a ruler?
I think it tells us that She was prepared ultimately, to do what she needed to do in order to safeguard her own safety as queen, but also the safety of her realm.
I think that she was very worried, given Mary's European connections, that perhaps England would or could end up being invaded by Mary's supporters, as indeed it later does.
And I think that she felt that she had this sense of duty that overcame any other personal kind of sensibilities.
And so I think really she felt that she was acting to safeguard her realm.
But I think on a personal level, it left her very troubled.
In our previous episode we looked at Elizabeth's suitors and how she ultimately never chose to marry and she put her head and her position as queen above her heart.
And is Mary another example of that?
Yeah, most definitely.
I think that's true.
But I think also Mary had left Elizabeth no other choice.
It wasn't as though Elizabeth had suddenly just woken up one day and thought OK, I'm actually, it's time to cut off her head.
I think Elizabeth, yes, she was acting with her head, but as a result of Mary's actions.
Absolutely, because Mary could have carried on living well imprisoned, but reasonably comfortably, and not taken the decision to undermine Elizabeth.
Yeah, and that's what would have happened, I think, had the Babington plot not sealed Mary's fate.
So...
Moving on to the Spanish Armada, which was one of the other great challenges of Elizabeth's reign.
So Mary's execution, while resolving this huge internal issue that had been going on for so long for Elizabeth, obviously with great difficulty to Elizabeth.
Mary's execution also removed the last obstacle to open war with Europe's great superpower, Spain.
So Philip II felt compelled to invade.
Why did he want to invade England?
What were his motivations?
Well, there are several motivations.
There is a much bigger picture here, because strategically, Philip was trying to build and consolidate Spanish power in Europe.
And he was really intent on making Spain a global superpower and increasing their influence.
And by gaining control of England.
This would have given him a stronger foothold to be able to do this.
So that's part of it.
And he also wanted to improve the trade routes that Basically England had encroached upon in the New World.
And we see sailors like Sir Francis Drake and John Hawkins who cause all sorts of problems for the Spanish by raiding Spanish treasure ships.
So Philip's very keen to put a stop to all of that as well.
And religiously, he was very, very keen to restore Catholicism to England.
Of course, he had previously been married to Elizabeth's half-sister Mary, who had already begun that mission to restore England to the folds of the Catholic Church in Rome.
And Philip was very keen to continue in that work.
And what was more most encouraging of all for Philip was that he had the full backing of the Pope, who put all of his support behind this and actually encouraged the mission.
So there are several motivations for Philip here, and religion is definitely one of the chief ones among them.
And what was the scale of the Spanish Armada?
Can you paint a picture of the threat that this posed to England?
Well, it must have been quite terrifying actually, if you were living near the coast and you suddenly saw this fleet of ships approaching.
Because we're talking about a fleet that's very, very large.
It consisted of about 130 ships.
So that is huge.
And these ships were carrying about 30,000 men.
So it must have been quite a terrifying and daunting prospect to see these.
It was one of the largest fleets to ever invade England.
And of course, there's a lot of anxiety about this.
There is a lot of worry about what could happen.
But it was something.
The approach of the Armada and the threat was also something that really served to unify Elizabeth's people.
And that was really crucial.
So on that note, what was Elizabeth's strategy for tackling this threat?
Her strategy really was to use propaganda.
That's exactly what we see her doing.
She rallies her troops, I suppose, and we see her going down to Tilbury to approach her forces directly.
And this is, of course, when she makes that iconic speech at Tilbury.
And it has been immortalised for posterity, as has the Armada portrait that's painted to commemorate this event.
So Elizabeth's strategy is all about engaging in her people and all about rallying them to come to her aid.
They're all in this together and let's fight off this force.
You mentioned in your answer one of Elizabeth's most famous moments, the Tilbury speech.
Why was this speech so powerful?
This is a really iconic moment in Elizabeth's life and also in her career.
And I think that there's probably several points that we can draw from this because, in terms of the speech, it really showcased Elizabeth's vulnerability to her people, the way that she says I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman.
So she's appealing to them in a sense that shows that they're all at risk here.
And that's something that really resonates with people.
And the language that she uses is also very, very emotional.
And it's a very clear call to action.
She promises to live or die amongst you all.
So there is this sense that everybody is in this together.
And that's what makes it very, very powerful.
But it also highlights this image of Gloriana that Elizabeth is trying to create, that they will all face this common enemy of Spain together and that they will live or die as a result of it.
So this is a real key moment in showing Elizabeth's skill as someone who can stir the masses and use words and propaganda.
She's using the full force of her regal voice.
Yeah.
And I mean the fact that we're still talking about it now, more than 400 years later, shows how effective it was really.
This is so powerful, her words and her actions at that time.
They are iconic.
And beyond this speech that stirred people, what were the tactical and environmental factors that ultimately led to the crushing defeat of the Spanish Armada?
You know, Elizabeth's gone down in history for crushing this fleet of ships approaching.
She has, but I think that we also need to take a moment to really appreciate and recognise the skill of several of her commanders.
Most notably, of course, Francis Drake and also Lord Howard of Effingham, who they really understood the changing conditions and they were able to adapt to the situation.
And this put them at odds with the Spanish commanders, who were less experienced, weren't quite as tactically aware.
And we also see, for example, that the English galleons were much faster than the very slow Spanish ships and easily maneuverable.
And they also had longer ranging cannons.
And these tactics were employed to full effect by these English commanders.
And they've proved to be far more effective now, and safer actually, than the Spanish tactics, which were to get close enough to ships that they were able to board them.
And then there are, of course, environmental factors as well.
There were storms that blew the Spanish ships some of the Spanish ships, of course which meant that they crashed into the rocks.
But of course, this was later taken advantage of for propaganda purposes.
And it.
There are several reasons, but I do think that perhaps the strength of the English commanders has been a little bit underrated.
To sum up, in this episode, we've been looking at Elizabeth's enemies.
We've looked at a really good example of one of her enemies within.
So this is Mary, Queen of Scots.
And we've looked at this example of an enemy, an external enemy, the Spanish Armada.
And if we can sort of sum up how Elizabeth dealt with challenges like these, what does it show about how she operated as a queen?
I think ultimately, she always put her country first.
That's what I will say about Elizabeth, and I think that she had a shrewd and strong sense of her own judgment and she always ultimately, as we said earlier, she did, she listened to advice, she did trust advice, but ultimately, I think she trusted her own instincts first and foremost, and And I think that that's how we see her reacting to challenges throughout her reign and her queenship.
I think she ultimately nine times out of 10 did what her gut told her to do.
And again, on most occasions, it was a good call.
Thank you, Nicola.
That's been absolutely fascinating.
So, to paint a picture, we've had Elizabeth facing one of the greatest threats of her reign, the Spanish Armada, an emerging victorious.
In the next and final episode, we'll be looking at Elizabeth's final years, her death and the enduring myths that turned her into one of England's most iconic monarchs.
If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to check out my roundup of further reading.
It's in the description below.
We've got a whole host of articles on Elizabeth, on the Spanish Armada threat, on her relationship with Mary Queen of Scots, an article about the letters with Mary Queen of Scots.
So don't forget to check that out.
It's in the description below.
