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Ed, thanks for joining us today.
My pleasure. Yes, it's great to have you.
I've loved your work for a long time now, so it's good to have you on the show.
Well, it's nice to be had.
Could you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do?
I am a negotiation expert.
I've been doing this for 32 years, this being speaking and writing on the art of negotiation.
My book is called Negotiation Bootcamp.
Bestseller, it's still selling well after being out for a number of years.
It's in the third edition and I've appeared on PBS, ABC National News, Fox News, Inside Edition, Fortune Business Report and other TV shows as a negotiation guru.
My clients include many of the Fortune 500 and I've spoken all over the world.
That is fantastic. Yes, we are very glad to have you here.
Today, we are going to tackle one of the topics that listeners ask about a lot and that is how to make sure that you get the best deal.
As I was rereading your notes for the umpteenth time from the negotiation book, Bootcamp book, a book that I strongly recommend for all the listeners that is required reading for this show, there you have a lot of great tips and tactics and strategies that people could use when it comes to making sure
that you get the best deal.
One of the things that I wanted to focus on was first talking about how great negotiators challenge everything and then also knowing when to walk away.
In the book, when you talk about great negotiators challenging everything, what do you mean by that?
I created a term about 20 years ago that I called negotiation consciousness and all good negotiators have high negotiation consciousness, which means two things.
It means that they are assertive and they challenge everything.
Being assertive means asking for what you need, what you want, and that may sound simplistic, but it really isn't, because so many people are afraid to just ask for what they want to say.
This is what I want either in a negotiation or in life itself.
You know, how many people are conscious about what it is they want from life?
So having high negotiation consciousness means that you're not afraid to put it out there and say, this is what I want.
Now, challenging everything means that you don't just accept what the world throws at you.
And to me, this is the core of negotiation.
That is that negotiators believe that everything is negotiable.
I get asked all the time, these people say, well Ed, do you really mean that?
Do you really mean that everything is negotiable?
And the answer is yes.
Yes, you have to be willing to challenge what the world throws at you.
Now there are two types of situations that I'm talking about.
The first one is, for example, when you're driving along in a car and the light turns from green to red, what do you do?
You should stop. Yeah, there is a situation where you don't want to challenge what is being asked of you, because you could die very easily.
So there are some situations where you're better off not challenging what the world expects, but there are other situations where either a person or a group or an ideology is demanding that you behave in a certain way.
And in that situation, to be a negotiator means you have to be willing to challenge what people say.
So can I give you an example?
Absolutely. I was flying back from Europe, going from Paris to San Francisco, and my flight, I had a stop in Chicago.
My flight from Paris arrived in Chicago at 8pm.
My connecting flight left at 9pm.
Well the flight from Paris was late.
We got in at about 10 after 9.
So I went directly to the airline's help desk and I said, you know, what do I do?
I think I missed my flight at 9 o 'clock.
And they said, yeah, you'll have to stay over because this is the last flight of the night and you'll have to take the flight in the morning.
And I said, are you sure about that?
And the fellow said, yes, that's the flight, the flight was getting the flight left.
I said, would you do me a favor?
Would you please check that again?
And he checked and he says, oh, wait a minute, the flight hasn't left yet.
I didn't tell me that in the first place, because I challenged him.
He looked it up again.
He said, Oh, yeah, wait, the flight hasn't left.
However, he said, you're not going to get on that flight because it's fully booked.
Now what would you do?
I know, given the prompting of this subject, I should say, I would challenge whether or not it was actually full, fully booked and actually full or two different things.
Well, I just decided I didn't believe anything this guy told me.
So I got to have a little train in Chicago between, you know, from one terminal to another.
I got on the train.
I ran out to the terminal where the flight for San Francisco was leaving.
Sure enough, it had not left.
And contrary to what he had told me, I not only got on the flight, I got a first class seat.
Oh, wow. Now, if I had listened to him, I would have been in a hotel, spent the night in Chicago, you know?
Right. This, to me, is a wonderful example of things that happen to me all the time where people say, you have to do it this way, or you can't do this, or you can't do that.
And I have gotten in the habit of challenging everything that is thrown at me if I don't agree with it.
This is a brilliant example because it highlights a couple of things.
First of all, it highlights the fact that reality isn't always what it seems.
So you should challenge it to test the reality that's presented to you.
The second thing is that when it comes to these situations, and when you find yourself challenging that reality, or challenging the person in front of you, challenging their position, you can do it in a way that is non -confrontational.
And I think that's one of the most brilliant points that you made in the book because there's a difference between being assertive and being aggressive.
And you were able to handle that situation in a way that was respectful, but made it abundantly clear to both people in this situation that reality, as it was previously stated, was incorrect.
The point I'm making is that in this type of situation, you're defending yourself.
It's not that you're being aggressive and attacking someone.
You're attempting to find out whether what they're telling you is true, or whether what they're telling you applies to you.
And I'll give you another example.
I was being hired as a speaker for a very large corporation.
And when it came down to signing the contract, they insisted that I provide a couple of million dollars of liability insurance.
I was being hired as a keynote speaker.
So I said to them, wait a minute, wait a minute.
I'm a speaker. I don't have control over the group, over the venue, over the room.
I have control over nothing.
I'm just getting up and speaking.
Why should I be liable for anything?
And they said, well, that's our company policy.
That's our company policy.
Now I call up the power of legitimacy when somebody says, well, you have to do it this way because it's our company policy.
So I said, who made that policy?
And the answer was, well, that's our legal department.
They insist on that.
I said, fine. Where's the legal department?
They didn't know. So I did my own research.
I found out where their legal department was.
It happened to have been in another state.
I found out who was in charge.
I called the head of the legal department and I said, look, here's the situation.
What do you want me to do?
And she said to me, you know, you're absolutely right.
She said, this doesn't apply to you.
Now, if I had not been assertive, and I hadn't challenged what was, you know, I would have had to take out an insurance policy, but the whole thing was ridiculous.
And it was only because I was willing to challenge it that I prevented it becoming an obstacle in my life.
Right. Now that makes a lot of sense.
It makes a lot of sense.
And I like how you said assertiveness is about defending yourself.
Because when it comes down to these situations in negotiation in particular, but again, in life in general, it's our responsibility to protect ourselves.
We can't put it in the hands of the other person to do what's best for us.
That's... Well, let me add something else here.
Yeah. My experience has taught me that very often one of two situations or conditions is true.
The first thing is that the person I'm talking to doesn't know what they're talking about.
That happens a lot.
Yeah. And it's, it's become more, more frequent.
This is in fact, it happens all the time.
People I'm dealing with really don't know what they're talking about.
They mean well, but they don't know what they're talking about.
Now, it is an example of that.
I was in Japan and I love Japan.
I love the Japanese people, but they have a kind of a cultural thing in Japan that if you ask somebody a question, it's impolite to say I don't know.
So got off the plane in Tokyo and I was trying to find my hotel, which was not easy, because they don't have street addresses.
And then Tokyo, I'm stopping people in the street and I'm saying, you know, how do I get that?
I would show them the Japanese writing for where I was going and they would say, Oh, yeah, I go this way.
This way, go that way.
All these people were giving me the wrong information because, because it was culturally unacceptable for them to say I don't know.
So it was up to me to filter that out and say, wait a minute.
So I think today in today's business world, there is so much inefficiency and lack of professionalism.
A lot of people just don't know what they're talking about.
And you have to be careful of that.
The other thing is that very often people want you to adhere to their agenda.
They want you to do something that is not in your best interest.
So you have to be very, very careful not to accept something that is clearly not in your best interest.
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It's gonna be great.
You know, this is another thing that people often ask when it comes to concessions.
How do you know that limit?
Because in negotiation, of course, there's going to be a little bit of give and take, but how do you know when you're conceding too much?
How do you know when you're conceding too much?
Well, I have a rule about concessions, and that is that you never make a concession without getting something in return.
So whenever you make a concession, if you're not getting something in return, right away there's something wrong there.
There's something, something is not right.
And you don't want to be making concessions when that occurs.
The other situation is, if I make a concession, I have to be certain that I'm not sabotaging myself.
So it's important to know where your bottom line is.
And once you start, you know, once you're in a position, you're being forced into a position where you're going below your bottom line, then you know you have to stop.
Right. Because at that point, at that point, you're going to wind up with an agreement that is not agreeable.
Right. One thing that I always tell my clients is that you want to concede according to plan.
And so this means you have a concession strategy going into it.
And really to speaking directly to your point where you understand that you have a bottom line, a position that you cannot go below.
And if you give one massive concession that takes you right up to your bottom line immediately in a negotiation, then you have nowhere else to go.
You have no place to maneuver at that point.
And so it's important to concede incrementally, because like you said, you concede in order to get something.
You have to get those reciprocal concessions.
But if you just give one big one, now you don't have any more bargaining chips.
Well, you brought up a very good point.
And that is that you really should know going into the negotiation, what you're willing to concede and what you're not willing to concede.
And that's a good way to prevent yourself from making a mistake.
So you should know that, you know, all right, these are the things that I'm willing to give away.
These are the things that I'm not willing to give away.
That's part of your preparation.
Right. Exactly. And now on the flip side, when it comes to defensive strategies, let's say, negotiating against somebody who went through your negotiation bootcamp.
And so they are set on not conceding without getting something in return.
How do we defend ourselves when we are feeling the pressure from the other side to make a reciprocal concession?
Well, there's nothing wrong with that.
In fact, it's a way that you can find a win -win agreement.
When you start to identify what it is that's important to the other side, that's how you find clues for answering the question, what constitutes a win -win.
Absolutely. So if you say to me, Ed, I'll do X for you.
If you do Y for me, that may be the optimum agreement for us.
Right. That makes sense.
That makes a lot of sense.
Now, would you suggest being explicit about the fact that this concession is contingent upon receiving something in return?
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
If you say to me, Ed, I want to follow a concession from you.
So what I have to say to you is, well, if I give you that concession, will you give me such and such concession so you make a trial close out of it?
I love that. Yeah, that's a brilliant point.
That is a brilliant point because this is something that a lot of negotiators struggle with when it comes to the horse trading aspect of it, when we're going back and forth, making concessions and trying to make these deals, how to do it in a way that doesn't concede too much value.
See if you don't do that, if you don't say, if I give you this, will you give me that?
If you don't do that, you're really negotiating against yourself because I ask you for a concession.
And you say, okay, Ed, you can have this concession.
So what am I going to do then?
I'm going to ask you for another concession and another concession.
But as soon as you say to me, wait a minute, if I give you this concession, will you give me that concession?
Now, you're getting something, you're getting something out of it, and you're preventing me from ramping up and asking you for all kinds of things.
Exactly. Exactly. And also, if you can do this correctly and implement a little bit of creativity in the process, giving a concession doesn't necessarily mean that you're losing value.
It could be something that simply creates value for the other side without causing much damage to your position.
Well, you know, there we have to get into a definition of what a concession is and how a concession should be made.
The purpose of a concession is to give a sense of satisfaction to the other party.
So it might not even be a significant concession that you make.
It might be something really small, but if they have a sense of satisfaction, it will make them feel that they are a winner in the negotiation.
Oh, this is great. And this brings up another point that people ask about when it comes to apologies in negotiation, because like you said, it gives people a sense of satisfaction.
So what is your take on apologizing in a negotiation if the other side feels as though a mistake was made, or it feels as though they've been slighted in some way?
Well, it's a double -edged sword.
I mean, if you make a mistake, I think it's important to fess out.
But I also believe that very often people will be overly apologetic and say, oh, I'm so sorry, I wish I could do that, I can't.
No, you have to show confidence in your position.
You have to behave in a way that what you're doing makes sense.
So you can't always be apologizing.
You know, it's one thing if you make a mistake, but otherwise, if you're a seller, for example, you don't want to apologize for your price.
You don't want to say, gee, I know my price is too high, I'm sorry.
Now, forget that. Your price is not too high.
You're not sorry. What you want to do is justify it.
Say, this is the reason why my price is high.
Right. Now that makes sense.
And I think that is a perfect opportunity to talk about the distinction between sympathy and empathy.
With sympathy, you feel bad about a person's situation, and you feel compelled to do something to change their situation to improve their position.
With empathy, you understand how they are feeling.
And so it doesn't have that emotional burden upon you that makes you want to adjust your position as a result of that feeling.
And I think that you can add that layer onto whether or not an apology is appropriate and to what degree.
Well, now you're getting into the psychological implications of a negotiation.
I think that what many people lose sight of is that in every negotiation, there are really two negotiations.
There's the one that you have with the other party, and then there's a negotiation that you have with yourself.
And I think very often, we undermine ourselves.
We have these negotiations with ourselves and we say, Oh gee, I'll never get this right.
I won't get that. Or that's not right.
Or they'll never agree.
We wind up defeating ourselves before we even get into the negotiation.
That's why it's important for example, I just gave of a salesperson who apologizes because they think their price is too high.
That's self -defeating.
You've just negotiated against yourself.
Right. Now that makes a lot of sense.
I love this and it's not surprising I took it to the psychology because that's my undergrad degree.
I'm a lawyer, but that's my undergrad.
So I always find a way to bring it to the psychology, but it's important.
It plays an important role in the dynamics of the negotiation, understanding your psychology and the emotional needs of the other side too.
Well, look, I just did a program for a client where they find that their salespeople are giving away things even before the customer asks for them.
They're saying, Oh, we can give you this and we give you that and we can be, you know, and I tried to talk them out of that.
All you're doing is raising the aspirations of your customer.
What you want to do is wait until they ask for it and then ask for something back, ask for something in return.
You don't just start your presentation by giving things away when they haven't been requested.
Right. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
And with regard to concessions, one of the things that needs to happen is they need to perceive as though there was some difficulty in giving the concession.
It's not just the benefit it has for them substantively and emotionally, but also did it cost you anything?
If it didn't cost you anything, then I guess just being a decent person.
You should have given that to me from the get -go.
And if you're making concessions at the beginning, they're not perceiving any pain or difficulty on your side.
So it makes it so that they don't appreciate it as much as they otherwise would.
Well, I look at it the other way around.
I think that it's important to make people work for what you give them psychologically, because if you just give me something, I don't appreciate it.
But if I have to work for it, I appreciate it.
So when you give somebody a concession, you don't want to make it easy for them.
You want to make it seem like you tried everything you could to talk them out of it.
You did everything you could.
And you finally gave in at it.
That was, you know, and that's it.
And so they feel they did the best that they could have done in the negotiation because they worked so hard.
That's brilliant. I love that.
Yeah, they feel like they've earned it.
So they appreciate it more.
Well, look, when I was a kid, I was raised in a broken home, no father around.
So my uncle used to come over half dinner.
And I guess he felt sorry for me.
And he would give me a $10 bill occasionally, you know, but he would say, if you wash the dishes, I give you a $10 bill.
He never just gave me the $10 bill.
I always had to earn it.
And that taught me a lesson right there.
See, if he had just given it to me, then I would have set out about a $20 bill, you know, $10, big deal.
But I really appreciated that $10 because I had to do the dish.
I hated doing the dishes.
I had to give something up.
I realized from that that you have to make people feel that they earned, that they had to work to get your concession.
That's why you never just say, okay, you can have it.
But when they feel that they pushed you, as far as they can push you, then they're going to be satisfied.
Then they're going to say, gee, I did my job in the negotiation.
I did the best I could do.
I love it. That's a great point.
And I know we're coming up on time.
So I at least want to touch on this last point.
When it's time to walk away, what are some things that we need to keep in mind when the negotiation is reaching its logical conclusion and it's no deal?
I think that that may be the most important thing to remember in a negotiation is that you have to be willing to walk away.
And I always say to people, I'm not telling you to walk away.
I'm just saying that in your head, in that negotiation that you have with yourself, you've got to be willing to say, if I can't get what I want or what I need, then I'm just going to pass on this whole thing.
And when you do that, you send the subliminal message to the person you're negotiating with.
And they know that they've pushed you too far.
And if you're not willing to do that, then you might as well just give up.
That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
And when it comes to knowing when to walk away, this has to be revealed in your preparation.
It's not something you should leave to a feel that happens.
Again, it has to do with what you expect to get out of the negotiation.
And that's why you always have to have clear what your bottom line is.
And when the deal, it looks like the deal is going to go below your bottom line, you have to be willing to walk away.
You have to say, look, I'm sorry, but I can't do that.
Right. Now, when it comes to the walk away, how does that happen?
So actually, how do you do it in your role?
Because again, I want to make it abundantly clear to everybody listening, because for a lot of people who are biased toward agreement, this is incredibly difficult for them.
Well, what makes it palatable is when you have a plan B.
When you have an alternative, that's why I say to people, you always have to have alternatives.
If I don't make this deal, what's my alternative?
What's my plan B? And if you know you have a plan B, then you're not desperate to do this deal.
It's only when you're desperate that you're not willing to walk away.
But the minute you say, if I can't get X, Y, and Z, then I'm going to take a hike.
Somehow, that's communicated in your tone of voice and your body language.
The other person, they get it.
And on my website, I tell a wonderful story that happened to me many years ago, where I learned this, where I walked out, I actually literally walked out on an important client, because he just was pushing me too far.
And he felt them following me, that begging me to come back.
Wow. I think that's a great example.
I think what we should do also is run the alternative scenario, because I'm assuming that if the person didn't follow you, you were legitimately gone.
Yes. Oh, well, that's the thing.
You have to back it up.
If I had come back in again, I would have had no credibility at all.
Right. So once you make that statement, you have to back it up.
You have to be willing to back it up.
And the reason you can do that is because you know, if I don't get this deal, I have another deal I could get.
Right. If I'm buying a house, I love this house.
It's my dream house.
But if I can't get it at the dealer, you know, at the price that I want, I'll find another dream house.
Exactly. I see this in real estate all the time.
People say, Oh, gee, I gotta have this house.
Oh, my, you know, get off it.
As soon as you do that, you're dead.
Right. You have to be willing to say, this is what I wanted to pay for this house.
Any more than that.
Thanks a lot. But I'm walking.
You know, I was just watching the show Breaking Bad.
Oh, I love that show.
Yes. Yeah. I was just watching an old episode of that.
Well, that's exactly what happened.
She offers this guy $879 ,000.
They want to buy his car wash.
And he would accept it.
And then he discovers that he has to make the deal.
And he calls her back and she says, well, now it's 800 ,000.
I want to give you 800 ,000.
That's it. She hangs up on him.
Sure enough, he calls back and takes the deal.
Yep. Right. Yeah, it's tough when you don't have options, then that's you have to go with it.
But if you do, then it makes it an easier calculation.
And I think that's one of the things that makes it so tough for people because they look at it as an act of gamesmanship.
When should I pretend to walk away?
There's no pretending.
If you are pulling that trigger, the deal is done unless they adjust.
And that's it. That's right.
Right. Perfect. This is great.
I really appreciate this.
I think this is going to be very valuable for the audience.
But before you go, I'd like you to remind them about who you are, what you do, and how they can keep in touch with you.
Okay. I am the author of Negotiation Bootcamp.
That's three words.
Negotiation Bootcamp, they can get it on Amazon.
My website is Brodo .com.
That's my last name, www .brodo .com.
I invite everyone to visit, read my articles, and hopefully they'll get something out of it.
Fantastic. Well, Ed, thank you again for coming on the show.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me as your guest.
My pleasure. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before about it.
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