Hi, it's Ryan here. Before we start today's episode, just want to remind you that the three of us, me, Hugh and Josh, are going on tour. a live stage tour again.
It's called Together Again. And it's a brand new show.
If you came to see the last one. This is all completely new and different.
We are so, so excited and we would love to see you there.
If you want to get tickets, just go to livenation.com.au and we'll be playing shows in so many, if not all of the major cities near you.
So we will see you there. My name's Josh.
I'm the co-host of The Imperfects, and I'd like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded.
I remember at that point we were sitting in the Pullman Hotel.
They'd bought all the players together. They were at the court hearing, going through the process until we finally came up with a verdict.
In the whole build up through it all, we had been told from the lawyers that we were going to be completely fine.
We're all imperfect. And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
I'm Hugh van Kylenberg from The Resilience Project.
And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum. And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
And this is The Imperfects. Hello everyone and welcome to a football-ish episode. hello hugh yeah i had so much stuff swirling around in my head then about this episode and i didn't think about the first few words so I've gone with what I see on television, which is a very formal welcome to the show.
Yeah. If you had a TV show that you're hosting, down the barrel, do the Imperfix introduction.
Good evening, everyone, and welcome to this episode of The Imperfects.
We're delighted to have you here today. Delighted.
I'll start again, sorry. I would like the take.
Take? Cut. Cut one. I'll call cut. Action.
Okay. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of The Imperfect.
We're delighted today to have Australian football legend, Dyson Heppel, on the show.
He'll be talking to us all about his journey in life.
In his life. Good. We'll have to do another take later, but that was a really good start.
Okay, thank you. Cut. Cut. Okay. That was great.
Thank you. I can see you in television. I think you're mankind.
No, you'd be great. Okay. You'd be great.
Okay. Yeah. Dyson Heppel. I don't know if you guys found when you were chatting to him.
He's a very Aussie male sportsman. Like the way he talks.
He is. He uses rhyming slang a lot. I heard him describe it.
He called his legs scotch eggs the other day.
Yeah. Called his arms Warwick Farms. I don't know who Warwick Farms is.
Warwick Farms? Yeah, but I think that's a thing.
Yeah. Called his teeth his fangs. It actually made me think that we, when we started speaking to him, I felt myself like with all, I guess, really wanted to relate to them and just be in their world. hopefully have some kind of, you know, some common ground.
Yeah, some common ground. And I felt like I just wish we had cool nicknames.
Oh, yeah. I have thought of some for us.
I was hoping this was leading to a prearranged.
Yeah, I've thought of some. and like with all sporting clubs it's like i've played sport for a long time and lots of sporting clubs and they happen very quickly and they just stick they're weird they stick you can get really bad luck can't you you get really bad you get good luck well i played with a guy who's an architect and we just called him the architect and that was his nickname forever Lots of new players don't even know his name.
One of my favourite nicknames that I've heard is Puzzle. because the features on his face just don't really go together.
It's funny being asked. I don't know if he would have loved that as a kid, but it's quite funny. i literally just thought of nicknames as we're sitting down so i haven't so there's not too much creativity here but like yeah i was just thinking just to assure everyone no work has been put into this I'm about two metres from the door, so it's two metres worth of thinking.
Oh, you thought of it literally. Yes, I just thought like...
First of all for me, so my son Benji is very much into Transformers at the moment and just one of the characters is called Megatron and I think it's a really cool name so I'd like to be Megatron.
What's the origin? I would love people to go, Megatron, however.
It just sounds cool. It just sounds cool.
Yeah, but it needs an origin story. Not necessarily.
Because puzzles are not funny without the story.
If someone would call Puzzle and they didn't know why, that's pretty funny.
And there was no reason. Okay. Okay. So you want Megatron?
Megatron. I refuse. Don't expect Megatron from now on.
Maybe not from you, but others might like it.
I don't know. I was thinking of you. I just thought like...
Ryan, Ryan, like dry as a bone, rye as a bone, bone man.
That's what we call you, the bone man. The bone man.
The bone man. Yeah, Bone Man, Megatron, the Bone Man.
And Josh, I was thinking like- And Josh, that's his nickname.
The bone man, I mean, it could be a few things.
It could be like, oh, he's an archaeologist.
Or it could be like, he's horny. Yeah. The Bone Man.
Here he comes, the Bone Man. If you were a horny archaeologist, that would be the perfect nickname, the Bone Man.
That's when nicknames really kick in. Yeah.
Josh, I was just thinking again very quickly, Josh, like Rogan, Josh, the Rogan experience.
I refuse that one. No, it is ironic because you're the opposite of him.
Ah, the Rogan. You are the opposite of the Rogan experience.
Yeah. So the Rogan experience, the bone man and Megatron.
I mean, considering the amount of time you've spent on those three, I don't think it'll take you much more time to think of one for bridge.
Yeah. Maybe Garfunkel. Why? Bridge over troubled water.
Ah. That's probably the best one. That's actually really good because it's got a meaning.
Yeah. See, that's the right way to do it.
To think about it for a bit longer. To think about it for more than two seconds.
Give it the full five and see what happens.
What about Bella? Churches. Yeah. Bells.
Yeah. Whistles. Let's call it whistles. Whistles.
Bells and whistles. Oh, that's actually great.
Whistles is good. All the bells and whistles.
And JB, Georgie boy. Puss in Boots. What?
No, there's no, that just came to my head and I'd love to go in Puss in Boots.
I'm going to be fine. Cross on. No reason. a bus.
Puss in Boots? Puss in Boots? Could it be cool if I have a friend called Puss in Boots?
That would not be cool. Who's your mate over there?
Gary Macca. You met Puss in Boots, haven't you?
Absolute legend. Yeah, he plays centre-half forward.
He's a ripper. Yeah. Puss in boots. Piss in boots.
Piss in boots. Piss in boots is good. Okay.
The Essendon faithful want us to get to Dyson.
I don't think they're listening anymore.
So Essendon faithful have skipped forward through that and have got to this bit here.
Yep. Stop skipping now. Yeah, yes. Dyson Heppel.
One of those people, he lit up the office when he came in.
He was so warm and so enthusiastic and positive.
It's a great episode where he talks about the Essendon saga, one of the biggest sporting scandals in Australian history.
Yeah, this is when Essendon was running a program where they would inject all their athletes or most of them with supplements repeatedly, some of which turned out to be illegal.
That was so fascinating hearing about that because he talks quite openly about it.
I was surprised. I was very surprised. As he was, I was like, I did not know we're going to this depth.
He really went there. He talks about the role that, kindness and compassion has had in his life in navigating everything he went through.
And for those of you who are new to the podcast, maybe you're an Essendon fan and you're just listening because of Dyson.
One of the things we do on this podcast is after this interview, we come back very quickly just for a very quick chat on a topic that came up during the interview.
And we sort of try and discuss in a way that is potentially helpful to people or makes people feel less alone.
And he spoke about his disordered eating when he was very much new to the AFL world.
And I want to talk about that specifically disordered eating with men, because I think it's a topic we hear very little about.
And I think it's something that a lot of people battle with. um yeah i also think it would be important it'll be useful actually because you'll have you've got a bit of time now hugh come up with a replacement for the rogan experience for josh okay Good call.
Thank you. Thanks, Megatron. No worries.
And here is Dyson Heppel. We are joined by a very cool man.
Okay, but make sure you introduce the guest as well.
What did you say? A very cool man? Yeah, I thought you were talking about me.
No, he is a very cool man. Also a very cool footballer.
We're joined by Dyson Heppel, Essendon Football Club legend.
253 games for the Bombers. Recently retired.
Are you still, are you still training? Like, do you, are you training for something?
Is like force a habit? Like you just, I'm guessing this time of year for you, it's like, well, got to get really fit this time of year.
Are you still doing that? Look, firstly, boys, thank you for having me on.
This is awesome. I do punch through all of your podcasts, so I'm very excited today and looking forward to the chat.
In terms of training, I tried to run 30Ks on Saturday and absolutely blew up at the 20K mark and nearly had to crawl home.
So, yeah, having a dig anyway, mate. So the answer is yes.
Wow. This is like a classic thing you hear, particularly like elite athletes who retire.
It becomes like, okay, what now? The what now question.
And I even have recently been feeling it.
I'm actually not an elite athlete, Tyson.
I don't know if you've been filled in, but...
Despite appearances, I'm not an elite athlete.
You have me fooled, mate. But I definitely already have every now and again start having feelings of like, oh, God, what? what happens when my time is up?
What happens when I'm like, no one, you know, this is not about you, but like for me, it's like, what happens if like no one wants to hire me anymore?
Like what will I do? What will I do then?
So how have you been dealing with any of, have you had any of those sorts of thoughts?
Yeah, it's a great call. It's been a real mixed bag of emotions.
The amount of support and love that has come my way has been incredible.
It's also just the realization that it's all come to an end.
I really can see how people of any nature, if they've been in something for a long time, to have it finish.
You can be really lost at times. And if you didn't have a real purpose or meaning or direction where you're heading in your life, it could be a really tough period to navigate.
I'm certainly having my moments of just pure joy and happiness and have a lot going on outside now, which is really good, but also there are moments where I feel a bit lost, feel a bit...
Just really uncertain about what the future may hold.
But within that itself, that's also really exciting for me.
It's a whole new chapter and a new journey that I'm looking forward to.
So there is so much love from the Essendon faithful for very good reason.
253 games and the way you played your footy, best and fairest, all that kind of stuff for the club.
But I think the love for you really stems from the fact that you were there as their leader after the club went through and endured and you went through personally.
And every Essendon supporter went through what some say is the biggest scandal in sporting history.
So I want to jump into that. If that's okay.
Yeah, let's go. Let's dig in. Nice. Because...
You really were at the center of it as the – I mean, one of the club's best players at the time.
I – So 2015, so we're right in the middle of 2015.
I was going to a lot of sporting clubs at that time, a lot of AFL clubs, every NRL club.
Because you were giving talks. Yes, I was doing my talks, yes.
Yeah, whoever would have me, I was just turning up and just talking.
Love it. and standard protocol would be to get a phone call or email from the head of well-being at the club and then they would organize it and then I would think, gosh, I hope the players are on board.
I hope the coaches are on board and I hope the captain is really different with Essendon.
I got a phone call from Joe Watson, who was captain at the time.
Yeah. And he said, um, I'd love you to come and speak to the playing group.
And I said, gosh, what a strange. do they not have a head of wellbeing?
This is quite peculiar to have him approaching me.
He met me in the car park beforehand, sort of helped me find a park and then walked me in. uh introduced me to pretty much everyone personally as as that and i was really really impressed Then he walked me out afterwards.
We chatted for about half an hour afterwards.
Such a lovely person. Yeah. And two days later, it was announced that the Essendon Football Club would not be participating in the competition the following year.
Did you feel guilty about that? The timing.
It's pretty convenient. Very sus. I mean, I didn't see many fingers pointed at Hugh van Kylenburg, but maybe they should have been.
And so, and it made sense then why Job had reached out personally and why he had asked me to come in.
Not saying that my stuff was going to get everyone through it, but he obviously wanted it to happen, you know, the things that I'd talked about.
He wanted you guys to hear that just before.
That happened. My question off the back of that is, As an elite sports person who is, I mean, you trust your club, the officials at the club to make the best decisions for you. to have faith in them and to say, yep, you know, whatever you guys think's best, we will do.
To then to be able to not do what you love doing, to know you'll be a year without football.
Yeah. How does that feel in that very moment when you're told you will not be playing football for a whole year?
Oh, look, it's, um, it was a crazy time.
Honestly, it was just a genuine whirlwind of emotions and, um, Leading right up to that point since 2012 it all started and the announcement came at in the back end of 2015 or even early 16, I can't remember.
But I remember at that point, we were sitting in the Pullman Hotel.
They'd bought all the players together. They were at the court hearing going through the process until we finally came up with a verdict.
There's been just a real deafening silence for quite a period before that.
But what we were... worried about was that in the whole buildup through it all, we had been told from the lawyers that were looking after us that we were going to be completely fine.
In the back of our mind, there was always an element of what if, you don't know, but really, we were going about our business just thinking we'll be completely cleared and this will all just... you know be a distant memory very quickly and then all of a sudden the lawyers came in with the you know, the saddest, dullest, just grimace looks on their face.
And they had to, they had to let us know what had happened in that, in that moment.
And, So how did they say that? How did they announce that?
They just stood up in front of the group, walked in the back door because we weren't listening live to it.
We had them come in. um, straight away post.
Um, and yeah, they, they stood up in front of the group and, uh, But yeah, just let us know that it hadn't fallen our way and pretty much point blank that you'll be having 12 months away from the game, you know, which is...
It was just a wild feeling. Like it was... I don't know how to explain it right in that moment.
It was... it was real numbing, just a pure numbness.
I don't think it was like it took a while for it to actually land properly and Guys couldn't really look at each other.
It was a really strange moment. till it sort of started sinking in and then, um, yeah, obviously an array of different emotions, guys in tears. guys not knowing what to do until it got to a point where we're all just consoling each other.
What did you do? What happened to you? Were you one of the people in tears or were you angry or?
Yeah, I think a complete shock. Like a real shock in that first initial moment.
How old were you? I was 23. Yeah, 23 at the time.
Yeah. And then, yeah, look, I think part of my nature, I do have – a real empathy for others.
So I just felt so heavy for my teammates and the rest of us that were going through it together. um but seeing guys in tears and you know just yeah just wild just in a in a moment that you know you would just never, ever, ever imagine.
And just having everything you love, you know, just stripped away from you.
So, yeah, it was pretty heavy. Who's the first person you told when you leave that room?
Who did you call? Yeah, I spoke to my partner, Kate.
We'd been together since before I got drafted, so she'd been through the entire journey with me and my biggest rock of support and love.
And yeah, I do remember in that moment, it was, um, She was unbelievable in being able to just hold space and allow me to – let her know how I was feeling without fully just going down the rabbit hole with me and you know, feeling the full grief of it all.
So she was able to sort of help me through that moment and yeah, I guess get me back on my feet to start. navigating that next little period.
I'm so fascinated by that moment when you're all in that room together and everyone's experiencing these different reactions and I'm putting myself in the same shoes.
It's us being told that we can't do this podcast for a year. it would be just, it seems so unfair.
Yeah. Particularly when it's, you know, it's out of your hands.
A decision's been taken out of your hands. um so in that moment what what happens what happens next So like just to really sort of like to, you know, and not wanting to, you know, if you feel uncomfortable, go, let's go.
Yeah. But it's like, you're all in, you're consoling each other.
Are there, is there then, do they talk to the team or the club talk to you about this is now what's going to happen or was it no one knew?
No one knew, right? In that moment, no one had any idea and I don't think we were in a space to be able to take on any more information.
It was just like, you know we had to try and just bunker down together as a group knowing there was going to be a genuine shit storm of media and whatever it may be coming from the outside.
And just the hardest thing being that we know within ourselves, we are completely innocent.
You know, at that time it was just like, it just felt so unfair and so unjust and just like, Yeah, you just wanted to just – yeah, we were just infuriated with the whole situation.
And as you say, being completely out of our control just made it so, so very hard.
But I do remember in that, you know, the bits following that was –
We went around for a barbecue at one of the boys' places in that afternoon to try and keep everyone together.
We had the broader, you know, the broader playing group, the guys that weren't involved at the time all come around as well.
And I remember that being just such a strange moment too, because they were just...
They just felt incredibly bad for us and the guys that were going through it. also trying to wrap an arm around and help support us as much as they possibly could. um you know i think the best thing coming out the back of that in that initial phase was just we were just so galvanized and not one of the boys fractured from that.
Um, and it was, I do just, just have so much love for that.
The boys that we went through it with, um, knowing that we've formed lifelong friendships, but just how strong everyone was in those initial moments to be able to stick fat. and hold together and and just absorb everything that was coming to us from the outside So just to go back a bit earlier, when the program that the injections and the program that was happening that got everyone in trouble.
When that was happening, you were 19? Yeah.
Yeah, 19. 2012 was my second year, so that's when I guess the guys came in and the program sort of began, yeah.
Yeah, when you've gotten to Essendon there's this supplement program you put on and when When it started to go bad, so to speak, when stories started to break, I'm guessing this was around 2012 when media started to get a hold of it,
What was that like for you as a 19 year old and this dream, like everything's gone so perfectly up until this point.
What was that like to have... I guess not just your pathway and your love question, but also kind of your integrity.
What was that like? I think that was the integrity piece is the biggest part of it all.
I think, you know, I'd come into the club meeting my idols, coached by my childhood hero. and just having the time of my life.
I didn't miss a single game in my first year.
I won the Rising Star Award. So just on this, you know, incredible trajectory, which was, You know, the Ron Evans medal named after the late Rod Evans, who was such a big figure within the Essendon Footy Club.
I was the first Essendon player to win the award, so things were sort of looking really great. and I was just loving it, just loving getting better, loving the whole environment, having so much fun with what I was doing. you know, just going, this is exactly what I dreamed of.
This is everything that I could have ever imagined as, you know, coming in playing for the team I bagged for and, you know, playing the sport I loved at the highest level I possibly could.
And sorry, your relationship with James Heard is, you know, must be great.
Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And he was enormous for me in that first year, just encouraging me to come in and not wait my turn. be a leader from the start and just get after it and go for it and I just owe so much to him in those initial phases of my career and As you say, then leading into 2012 when things come underway and where I've got the supplements regime or whatever we want to call it.
Little tweaks and prods started coming out in the media and you get-
What I did quickly learn is that I could handle people ripping me or whatever they wanted for my performance.
That was all part of being an elite football and elite sportsman.
You're going to get people that... Just want to get into you, no doubt.
And being such a big, passionate fan base, even sometimes from our own supporters.
But when it came to getting stuck into me about my character, and my ethics and my values, that's when it became really hard.
It was sort of, Yeah, just people just judging your character for something that was completely out of your control and it was just a chaotic time.
And I found that really, really hard. You know, I'm walking around like knowing I was innocent but feeling just guilty as hell.
This is a potentially naive and also clunky question, but I'm just interested in how it actually happens.
So you're at the club and the performance staff say, this season we're taking this.
And do you know what it is or is it like, I'm guessing as a 19 year old, you're not going to question and go, hang on a minute, can I please, can you tell me exactly what's in here?
I need to know. I've never met a 19-year-old or a 25-year-old who can stop senior officials to say, what is this?
But I'm interested to know what happens there.
Like, is it announced to everyone, we're taking these supplements, so every day you come and do this?
Yep. Or is there a part of you going, this doesn't feel right?
Or are you just like, oh, okay, yeah, that's what we're doing.
Not one part of me did I feel this doesn't feel right.
We got a full presentation from – yeah, from the guys at the time, there was Stephen Dank and Dean Robinson and, um, the coaches.
And so there was a, the whole crew was sort of part and on board with this.
And, um, And with the reassurance that everything was absolutely clean.
No, like no. question about it. And me being just so committed to get the best out of myself, I was always curious and inquisitive about the program within itself and going down that path, it was like, never did I question the morality of it all or whether we were crossing any boundaries here.
And sorry, just one more question. So do you get injections?
Is that what happens like every day or is that how it works?
Or was it tablets? Yeah, there were tablets.
We had tablets that we'd take home daily, which were a mixed bag of multivitamins and the works like that.
The injections weren't daily. They were, I don't know how regular, maybe weekly.
Yeah. And yeah, so it was a... Even just thinking back now, it was just a... I don't know how to put it into words, but...
I think overall, like the guys that we just went through it with, there wasn't any point that any of us sort of – ask a question to each other.
There was no questioning within the locker room.
There was no chats within families about, you know, so yeah, I don't sort of sit here and go, it was weird.
It was strange. It was like a, yeah. But why would there be?
Because there was no precedent for it. Exactly.
I mean, now I'm sure lots of players are going like, hang on, can we just double check what that thing is that we're... But only because Essendon went through what they went through.
But at the time, of course. I'm taking multivitamins all the time that like some random podcast tells me to take.
I probably should start taking that every day.
Yeah, and that's the thing, and it's like, you know, way it was pitched, it was like it was this insane program and regimen of injections and everything.
And it was like that wasn't the case. You know, it was a lot more just cruisy and clean cut than what everyone thinks that turned into this enormous storm of Yeah, of just chaos and accusation and things like that.
I have so much empathy right now thinking about a 19-year-old country boy who's living his dream.
James Heard is his hero. all of a sudden he's his coach, he's playing great football, and by the way, take these, you've got to take these, it's all part of the program, yep, no worries, and then to find out.
And not even just by the way, here's why they're safe and here's why they're not.
Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, yeah, a PowerPoint presentation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you hear that, I mean, you and all the playing group, but you're in front of us now.
So having so much empathy for a country kid who's living his dream who – who has done nothing wrong, has made no wrong decisions, I should say, has trusted everyone and then misses an entire year at a really important time in your career.
It's awful. Yeah. Like I just think that's, I don't know if you're, you're probably not still in the headspace of that, but it's a very sad, it's really sad.
No doubt, mate. And it's sort of, you know, I have had the, you know, I've put in the work, the inner work to make sure I've been able to navigate and look back and forgive you know everything that went on through through that period to be able to free myself but So you have forgiven the people involved.
Absolutely, yeah. And look, that took a lot of work, mate.
We can go into that. But just going back at the time, as you say, 19 and then the decision itself in the year off probably wasn't the hardest part of it all.
It was that murky from 2012 through to 2015 period where you're still, I'm still young and trying to just drive and get the most out of my footy and growing as a person and a player and as a leader.
But in the background with all of this shit going on investigations, constant media, um, you know, reporters in the car park after every single training session.
Um, Sitting in a cafe feeling anxious about what are people going to say, people looking at me in just weird ways and me saying, thinking that they're judging me until I actually had the awareness and looked internally around, was I really happy?
Was I loving this? And the answer was no.
It was like, fuck, I'm just like, I'm a bit of a shell of who the human that I usually am of my enthusiastic, optimistic. just bubbly natured lad that just loved going to the footy club when it turned into like, fuck, like, when you're pulling into the car park in the little Commodore going, like, I just hope there's no media here today or can I go in a back door so I can avoid a question or, you know, just...
It's almost like, especially for someone who, through no fault of your own, you feel like the villain.
Of course, you'd be paranoid, I guess, walking around the streets, even going back to Leangatha or going anywhere and you're like, People might be looking at you because, oh, that's Dyson Heppel, but maybe the paranoia is making up this anxiety, I guess.
Yeah, for sure. And that one, to the point of going home and seeing people that you know, but them having no... real knowledge of everything that went on, but reading the papers and the headlines, And naturally, I'm going, they're just judging the fuck out of me right now. you know like and I'm just like oh no like I just just remember feeling this just real anxiousness around it all and um yeah, it was just a yuck, a yuck little period until, until I remember, I remember we were at the club and, um,
A lot of guys were just feeling the same type of emotions and we started verbalizing it to each other. leaning on each other for support.
I remember Job saying, we have a choice if you want to become a victim to this situation or not.
And for some reason that landed really heavily to me.
And looking at that, I was like, well, I have become a real victim here because I'm not happy.
I'm not my normal self here. And it gave me that real...
I guess, self-awareness to really look inside to how I was feeling and then go on this journey search for freedom, I guess, search for how can I – you know, find joy in what I'm doing right now.
And a lot of that, Hugh, landed at a very, very important time when you came out to the club. you know, with your resilience project work and the gratitude, empathy and mindfulness landed at a perfect time for me.
And sometimes, you know, the situations and things you go to and things you hear, things you read that will land and others they just won't.
But at that time it landed heavily. And I did go down just a – I pursued that quite a fair bit, just going, okay, what can I be grateful for every single day? and just finding these small moments of joy in the little things in life.
How can I show more empathy towards my teammates, to the people around me?
Can I show as much love as I possibly can?
Soon found the more I gave, the more I got back. and little things and my life just started.
It was like a bit of a snowball and things became – hell of a lot easier to deal with.
I became a better friend and a better partner.
I think my football got better too. I was getting more joy out of that as well as we're going through this period.
It's safe to say that Hugh saved the Eston football club.
Hugh saved us, mate. He is a god. Just trying to use the hawk support over here.
I do remember actually, funnily enough, I don't know if you remember this, but when I finished the talk, I was near the door that everyone had to exit and the first player out shook my hand.
I think everyone felt like they had to. long line and you're somewhere in the middle.
That was literally just like, thanks, mate.
Thanks, mate. Thanks, mate. Oh, we're doing handshakes?
Okay, cool. And you were sort of three quarters the way back the line and you stopped and gave me a massive hug.
We hadn't met before. It was a really long hug.
And I thought, what a lovely hanging man he is.
That makes sense now. Yeah, no, it did, mate.
It really did land. And, you know, I think I'm up to...
About 2,000 and something in the... Oh, wow.
Seriously? Yeah, I've been punching them.
Every day? Every day, yeah. That could be a record holder.
Someone will be able to flog 10 books when I walk out of here.
Yeah, you help yourself. But no, seriously, mate.
No, thank you. Because it really did have a profound effect on my life.
And it got me really just passionate about... exploring that avenue as well around other areas that I could just get better as a person and Um, yeah, it sort of just landed really, really nicely at a really pivotal time in my life, mate.
That's lovely. Thank you. Looking in those.
We can keep. Yeah, sorry. Why are we moving on so quickly, guys?
Have you seen any of my work? It's on Rowe for a couple of years.
Yeah, you can text me later about it. Have a think about it.
In those three years that you said were the toughest ones before the announcement of the band.
I've got so many questions, so many things I want to ask.
The first question is, did you ever think of stopping, quitting, stopping playing footy? no no no I don't know I definitely didn't know footy was just such a big love I just loved the game so much and those Two hours on a weekend where it's just the boys competing our guts off for each other were some of the funnest times.
That was the fun time throughout the week. when there couldn't be, no one could touch you out there.
It was just the freedom of playing footy and just love those moments so much with my teammates.
And I think just going through that, if it was an individual sport, be very different.
But having... you know, the camaraderie and the mateship and, you know, teammates around you to just galvanize through that period is really important.
Do you remember the first time you spoke to your parents about what was going on?
No. Yeah, I don't fully remember the first time.
Do they know yet? I don't know. Oh, that'll be all, Tom.
Imagine I just dropped that there. Hey, guys, listen to this podcast.
Don't read the papers much. No, look, I do remember them being just incredibly supportive, though, throughout that period.
There was... And they were being informed from the club in what was happening and giving me space.
So they never handed me about, you know, what was actually happening.
It was more so how I was feeling and could they support me in any way possible.
Yeah, just remember nothing but pure love throughout that phase, yeah. the thing I remember most about that time, I mean, I'm not an Essendon supporter, so it wasn't following it as closely, but I remember you being one of the main players who stayed and,
And there are a lot of players, understandably, who went to other clubs and left.
Did you ever consider... I don't know if you were able to, maybe you were under contract so you couldn't anyway, but did you consider... just so you could play footy going to another club.
And before you answer that, I'm sure every single club had your call.
So in post the band year? When you knew you weren't going to be playing for the year?
Yeah, when we knew, I guess, from that point, well, the blanket rule from that year, we could not play any form of competitive sport, including domestic basketball.
Okay. whatever, we could not play any form of competitive sport anywhere.
So, you know, that was sort of having that. full period out of the game but then it was a number of clubs did come knocking there were some quite lucrative offers on the table and But none that I really, really buried into to consider.
A big value of mine was pure loyalty. And I, honestly, I really wanted to see this through.
I wanted to go, okay, Ken, you know, it took me time to get to this point after I did all of the inner work and, you know, to free myself and forgave everyone that was a part of it at that time.
I got to a point where I was like, okay, can I come back and have the most positive impact that I possibly can on this footy club?
And yeah, also make our fans and our members and our supporters just really proud to be a part of the club again.
Um, and you know, I came back in that first year in 2017 and took over the captaincy from Job.
And that's a huge thing to be asked to lead your club out of the doldrum and to...
I mean, it's arguably the most important year in the club's history coming back from that.
How did that feel to get a phone call saying we'd like you to captain the club?
Yeah, that's an incredible moment. That's a, you know, just remember looking at the... the honour board of captains that had led the club prior and just some, you know, names that just at the, the epitome of AFL footballers.
And I was just, to be able to receive that honor, It was probably the greatest moment in my footy career and just a really special moment in my life.
But being 24, still a really young leader.
And at that point, I had... came back and I'd found my just real love and passion and joy for footy.
And I remember the, Coming out for that first game in 2017, we were playing Hawthorne at the G on a Friday night.
I was there. There you go. Jared Roughhead, it was his first year as captain as well.
Quite close with the Roughhead family from Leangatha.
So, you know, meeting Ruffy in the middle for the toss was, was unbelievable.
Did you play against him as a kid? He was a few years older, so I never played against him, but I played with his younger brother at Lane Gathering, things like that.
I remember coming up the race and 90,000, just the roar of the crowd.
And I just remember the energy just running through my body and going, this is why I play.
You know, this is... This is why I've done all that work to get back to a point where I can just feel so much love and passion towards footy again.
And I ended up having like the game of my life.
So you see, I was kicking snags from outside 50s.
And I can't kick over a jam tin, boys, I'm telling you.
And just for non-footy fans, he's not kicking sausages.
A snag is like a good goal. That's true.
Strange turn of events. Yeah, he's kind of lost his mind a little bit.
He's like grabbing sausages from the stands.
Oh, but yeah, just that game in itself and just having so much fun, you know, and we ended up getting a nice win and sharing a... some beautiful moments with our fans after the games and doing a lap around, just like absorbing everything and going, this is just incredible.
But, I got chills. It's pretty special and probably really validating for you. to have that loyalty to stick it through, which I imagine would have been pretty tough at times.
One question I had is that do you think – because you can tell just from meeting you walking in, you can tell that –
Loyalty does not surprise me at all. But do you think the fact that you barracked for Essendon added to that want to stay?
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I reckon it did. Like it's just a...
It was the childhood dream and that dream quickly turned to darkness, but it was like, can I see the light coming back out of this again and just...
You know, looking back to, you know, why did I start footy in the first place?
And it was for my pure love, passion, and joy running around with an Essendon Guernsey on when I was a little tacker. you know so to be able to harness that again and really carry that for the remainder of my career yeah um was really important yeah um It must have been really, really hard during those years... thinking about you as a five-year-old and running around in your footy in your Essendon Guernsey.
As a player now in those years and seeing little kids losing –
Or people turning away from Essendon. Like I'm an Essendon supporter.
But I don't really – if I'm being completely honest, I have to admit that those years and the scandal – are a big reason as to why I don't really care about football anymore or follow Essendon really at all.
I imagine... That must be so hard knowing that those years that you were there living your dream were the years that fans were turning away.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's such a good point.
I remember going to, when we came back, going to Auskick clinics and things like that Um, and kids coming up, literally saying that they jumped ship from Essendon because of things we went through, you know?
And that was, you'd sort of bunker down and put on a bit of a face and go, oh yeah, let's go come back and get around the Dons.
Leaving there, driving back in your car going, wow.
Like, you know, little tackers once barracking for Essendon, you know, loving watching me play on the screen and then all of a sudden they're like, nah, well, you're a cheater or, you know, they're getting fed information from, whoever, outside sources, family, uncles, whatnot, that may have been completely false and all of a sudden they're barracking for someone else.
And it's just like... Yeah, that was part and parcel of it.
And that was a big part of me coming back going, I'm just going to bring as much passion and fun. and joy and exuberance back to this environment to try and make our fans proud again.
And also, I guess, as we're seeing more than ever now in football media, there's not a lot of nuance involved. in how things are reported necessarily.
It's like there are good guys and bad guys.
And I imagine for a kid, especially for a kid, you're kind of taught through story that there are heroes and villains and there's not much in between.
And I think through the media and then potentially how that's then communicated through parents or uncles or whatever.
It's like, you know, nah, they're, you know, people like talking negatively about stuff when people done one thing wrong.
Yeah. Well, yeah. Like even to a point of like at the, uh, at that point, um, when we had the year off, there were so 34 were part of the.
The sanction, 12 were remaining at there.
So there was 12 of us left at that point when we got sanctioned.
So can you explain that? So early in 2012 was when it started.
The 34 players that were involved at that time.
Gotcha. Some had been delisted, left to other clubs throughout that period.
At the point where we got sanctioned, there was 12 players remaining of part of that 34. and there was a front page of the Herald Sun was named The Dirty Dozen.
With our photos front and center. There you go.
And it's just like bang. That's to the point of like now you're a villain.
Yeah. Yeah, and I think that has summed up perfectly because I feel like potentially something...
It sort of hasn't been said explicitly, but I think in our conversation today that like looking back in hindsight...
And it's quite clear that, as you've said, there was no... None of the players knew of anything that was bad or that was going on that was bad.
It was... people should have known better were doing it but you guys in all your minds are innocent but that's not how it played out for many years.
There was like many people accusing you guys of being cheats for years and years and years.
And then you actually get sanctioned with a penalty that confirms this in many people's minds.
I imagine that weirdly when you get that penalty, there would be a point of relief.
Yeah. Not in the initial point, I guess.
Yeah. But, yeah, for sure. Like after – After navigating that period, absolutely, putting a finality on it all, no doubt, like it can be all done.
Yeah. And you've alluded to it a little bit, but what did you do apart from all the compliments to Hugh in the year off?
You've sort of alluded that there was a journey there.
What kind of things did you do to, A, keep sane, maybe...
How was your mental health during that year, to be pretty blunt?
Well, I remember that literally it was like the day after we got sanctioned.
I went back home and it was my brother's birthday so we went out for a big lunch and I've put on a put on a smile for the family and had lunch with the family and I remember go in the car and I said, I need to get away here.
So we got in the car and we went up to the middle of the Barmer Forest on the Murray River And we just went camping for like two weeks, no phone service or nothing.
And I was just like, I knew there was going to be so many things that I had to attend and be at and whatever, but I was like, I need to go.
So it was. I got away from everything for that period so I can really just gather my thoughts and come back in a space of being able to, I guess, answer any questions or, be there for people without the heat of that moment and the heavy emotions of it all.
So- If it's not too personal of a question, what thoughts did you gather?
Yeah, I think it was more just processing exactly what had happened.
And... Yeah, I think that was that initial acceptance of it.
It was, it was more, that was probably the big one was going, okay, Spending those couple of weeks going, I have to accept this completely out of my control right now.
What can I do about this going forward? How do I want to handle this?
Can I... can I handle this with as much grace as I possibly can, you know?
And, and, Was that an instinctual thought?
No, that was after a fair bit of work that I had done in the background, but it was just a moment where it was just like, all right, let's come back to this environment and just be a not necessarily I wanted to be there for my teammates, but it was almost for myself just to go, can I...
Just be the most optimistic, positive, joyful, loving person through the biggest adversity that I've ever handled in my life. and see what happens, see what comes of it.
So, yeah. God, I can see why they made you captain.
Makes a lot of sense now. Wow. The other part of it is that you've mentioned a few times is... how you were able, the work that you did to get to a place where you could forgive and can you run us through that?
Cause I find that incredible. Like, I don't know if I'd be able to, I feel like I'd just be angry.
Same. I feel like I'd be resentful and angry.
Um, Forever. Yeah. And no doubt there was my mind, my own mind wanted to tell me that you should be angry.
Be angry, be bitter, be sour. You know, woe is me.
Why'd this happen to me? You know, stuff this.
But... There was a deeper part of me that wanted to free myself of all of that.
The suffering, I guess... that we were going through.
It's how you relate to that, I guess, depending on the heaviness of it.
You know, there was the path I was going down where it was just like a, yeah, the real just anxiousness and a tightness.
And it felt like a literal cage around my chest.
Like that was sort of the feelings throughout that period.
And then it was like, all right, what are the things I need to do to free myself to be my best self?
And one of them, the biggest one was forgiveness, forgiveness for everyone involved and forgiveness of myself for going through it as well.
And it was just like, Just a moment of like, all right, the quickest way to freedom here will be forgiveness.
Yeah, it took a period to get there and navigate that.
But in the end, it's true. It's a hit and it worked, you know.
It makes so much sense you're saying it and I can see why that would lead to that, to freeing yourself from those negative feelings.
What did you feel like you needed to forgive yourself for?
Because in my mind, it's like you didn't... do anything wrong, but what was going through your mind in that sense?
I think the forgiveness for myself part was more about that everyone had a choice to undertake the supplements regime or not.
Um, it wasn't as if it was a blanket, you have to do this.
You have a choice to go down that path. And I made the choice to go, yep, I'm committed to it.
Oh really? But all players chose to go with it?
There were a couple that didn't due to either not being being literally scared of injections or whatever they chose not to so that's how I was put to you, you can do it or you don't have to do it.
So there was a, yep, there was a clear choice.
And for me, the forgiveness part was, I made that choice.
I've committed to that, to go, to, to be a part of it.
Um, and, and it was forgiving that decision.
It was like, yeah, look, that's the call you made and that's okay. you know that is okay yeah because it's it's i mean it's easy to say from an outsider's point of view but of course you were the one in it so you've probably harsher on yourself but It's kind of the equivalent of someone saying, hey, you know how you crossed that road three years ago?
Yeah, I did that for a year. I'd cross that road every week. well, now you can't leave the house for a year because you crossed that road.
Well, no one told me. It's sort of like that.
It's like you had no idea. Yeah. Guaranteed.
Yeah. So I'm interested to know with all that you've been through, how has this whole thing impacted your relationship with trust?
Yep, that's big. I think the initial phases of going through it all throughout that early period are – the trust with the people around me was questioned a hell of a lot.
I found it I found it really hard to open up to be my normal self around others and just... questioning the viability of a lot of people's character. um even people outside the club yeah even people outside the club um you know it was uh i found it i found it you know i was i went really insular and I found it harder to be my normal exuberant self, to form more friendships and create deeper relationships and connections with others around me.
And it wasn't until sort of navigating all that period and going through that inner work that we spoke about that.
I could then allow that to open up and I guess clear that murkiness and come through the other side to, really foster and cultivate deeper and meaningful relationships with others and Yeah.
And that forgiveness piece was a big one around being able to trust others again.
And yeah, just, I guess. It just opened me up to my normal nature of being really kind, really caring, really trusting.
Did the concept of trust come up or at least when you're offered the captaincy? obviously incredible excitement, but was there a daunting...
Sort of thing hanging over your head of like how do I build trust with all the new people coming through and build a football club that trusts each other.
Yeah, nice. Yeah, I think that was a massive one for me when I overtook the captaincy.
It was... I made a really purposeful point of cultivating really strong relationships with those around me and anyone that was to play under my leadership, felt really safe, felt a real sense of belonging and felt really comfortable to be themselves.
And within that, I hope that the guys had a really healthy respect for me and trusted me as their leader.
So yeah, that's a really important point.
Um, James Heard, your hero, um, was that a hard one to forgive or have you had that conversation with him now since then?
I'm guessing you're still close with him.
Yeah, look, it was a, it was a trying period that one, because, you know, he being just a real mentor, a real role model, um, and my childhood hero.
It was a really tough one, that little period.
We lost touch for a couple of years after he was stripped of the coaching role.
And then he went away, went overseas and we just sort of lost connection for quite a period. after I really wanted to get back in touch with him and spark our friendship again. um and now we're really close again to this day so uh yeah look he's played a big important role in my life um and we've been through some heavy stuff together so you know, really grateful for our friendship.
Beautifully answered. Was there a point like in the years once, like from 2017 when you were back playing, I imagine there was another point where the... play development coaching staff put another program to the players.
Like I, I imagine that would be a point where everyone's looking at each other going like, Definitely.
Was there a moment like that? In terms of the supplements on the back of that.
Just apples and bananas. Yeah. No, literally, it probably went way too far the other way.
We would not have a single supplement in the building.
Fair. Yeah. There's now quite a process in place off the back of all that.
I can imagine. Yeah, it's quite a rigorous one.
We never really got approached with any more supplementary regimes off the back of all of it.
Can I give you a break from that saga and go on to a really light topic?
I heard you on Dylan Friends, the podcast, Dylan Buckley's podcast, and love listening to you talk there with Dil.
And you mentioned how early in your career – food was an issue or eating was an issue and you'd sort of developed some form of you were never you never went had it diagnosed or anything but some form of disordered eating and I
My ears pricked because I haven't really heard a male talk about that before in a public forum like that.
And I thought, gosh, what a really important and brave thing to do.
We have a history of eating disorders in our family.
Maybe that's what my ears pricked as well, but I'd love to hear a bit more about that just because when you look at the rates of disordered eating, There is a percentage of men who go through that.
It's much bigger than I think most would think. it is quite common.
So I'm just interested to hear what that was like for you or what actually happened for you at that time.
Yeah, right. Look, yeah, well, we are going to another heavy topic, I guess, so we're just rolling on.
Let's pile it on. No, look, to this point, I think coming in, I was just so driven, so committed to get the absolute best out of myself.
And one of those things that I was able to control was my diet and what I consumed and I think it was leading into maybe my second year, I got quite a... I had a really obsessive nature.
And I... I probably didn't have the knowledge of what a really good diet would be for an elite athlete.
And I went through a phase of just eating as clean as I possibly could, but that got to a point where It was like, you know, literal like no carbs, just a plain chicken breast.
I got really anxious going out for dinner because I didn't know what type of oils they'd be putting on anything.
If there was food that I was like, that's all going to be way too unhealthy.
I remember if I did have something that wasn't in my head, that wasn't aligning to me performing, I'd go home and crunch sit-ups and this kind of stuff where it was just a really just – unhealthy and just a way of looking at a diet for a professional athlete. and consuming nowhere near enough calories for what I needed to, still growing as a young fella and training my guts out. and playing on a weekend.
And to a point, it didn't... for some reason, didn't impact my performance.
So that's probably added to it all. I felt like I was in a bit of a rhythm and going well. and Kate a number of times and weirdly she was studying sports nutrition and she's like coming back and looking at all this information she already found it really strange because I'd never take her out for dinner and all of this, and I'd be sitting at home just eating the blandest foods you could think of.
And, you know, she'd be slyly trying to slide information that she'd been learning across my desk and I wouldn't want to hear it, wouldn't want to barf it until she was just like...
Fucking read it. Like, look, this is the fact you're under eating.
This is not, you know, sports nutrition.
I'm, I'm literally dialing in on this right now because I'm seeing the pattern that you're going down to a point where she rang our PDM and was worried about me.
Play development manager. Yeah, play development manager.
Yeah, and along with a couple of other boys at the club had expressed concerns for... you know, how I was so obsessive in terms of my nature around food.
So for you it was around body fat? percentage or that was yeah for sure i was very very strict in terms of keeping my skin folds which is your body fat um you know under a certain level and and making sure I looked lean, looked like the epitome of a footballer.
It was all about just being ripped, staying lean, being strong.
But at the same time, I'm only young. I was trying to put on size and not consuming enough calories.
So it was, you know, to my detriment. I don't know how this works in a club, but are there expectations on skin folds and things like that in a club?
How does that work? There is, but I think as elite athletes, it's our own internal – nature that we go, we have to be out.
And it's like a, you feel so much shame if you're above a certain level and.
You know, within that, that footy environment, the elite environment, it's like, if you're above a certain level on a body fat percentage, it's like, what are you doing?
You know? And people are like, come on now. type of thing.
It's like, he's so unprofessional. um, but they were off even off my own standards.
I was well below what we had to be, but I was like, nah, Can I be the leanest?
Can I be, you know, have the lowest skin folds, you know, that, that type of thing.
So just got in this real. Sort of, yeah, rabbit hole of poor nature and my relationship with food just fell to bits really.
And did that change, I assume? Yeah. Was it okay?
Yes, it has now. It hasn't been, yeah, 14 years later and still going.
How did it change? What happened? I guess over the course of that year, Kate probably just got really, really demanding on me at the back end to go, this is what I'm seeing. this is what this is what's actually happening and then a good mate of mine and a friend of mine Danny Kennedy, he really helped me, I guess, change my relationship with food as well.
Soon those anxious feelings, I was able to go out for dinner and be present and enjoy whatever feed was going.
Yeah, I've always bloody loved my food. I would tuck in, but just that relationship throughout that, yeah, that sort of 12 months, I guess it was, was pretty damaging.
This might be a bit of a dark question but thinking about that disordered eating time you mentioned before that your say for example your skin folds were way below where they needed to be you're objectively in probably incredible athletic shape if you were to stand in front of a mirror and look at yourself what kind of things would you say to yourself I think – look, standing in front of the mirror, I was –
I was happy with the condition and shape I was in, but it was more so the real – the inner judgment on myself if I was to have something that didn't align to my own thoughts around performance at that time. if it was a piece of cake or a bunch of chocolate or whatever.
And what did come from that was when I was eating so clean, If I did happen to have a bit of cake, I couldn't stop.
I would just annihilate whatever was left on the plate.
Yeah. That, that was a real dark one where it was like, that's when I'd have to go back and just smash out a heap of sit ups or pushups to go.
I'm going to burn this shit off because that's going to be detrimental to my performance you know so you really but you believe that it would affect your performance yeah I just got this real just belief and, you know, telling myself this story that I was creating, um, in my head was like, yeah, that's, that's not good.
Like get rid of that now. And just to put a cap on that almost, it's like so, but you've since learned that that wouldn't have, would that have affected your performance?
No, not at all. Not at all. It's a bit of cake or a bit of chocolate or whatever.
And I even remember if it was a – a couple of beers after a game or whatever you go out with the boys and have a few beers and i remember even when you're sort of half tipsy i'd be like i'm gonna run home I'm going to run and burn these beers off now.
Like it was like, yeah. So I'd be punching. from the city or whatever we were and just legging it back up Mount Alexander Road, back out towards Essendon where I live.
Just weird shit like that where, yeah. And I didn't think it was, I was like, no, no dramas.
Yeah. And didn't question it one bit at the time.
Was it just mechanically like I need to burn this off or was there also – was there any kind of self-loathing or self – negative self-talk that went along with that?
Yeah. Yeah. I think probably more so around the food was definitely like a punishment.
Yeah, there's more of a punishment for doing it, yeah.
Right. So the exercise wasn't just a mechanical burn it off, but it's a punishment for doing it.
Wow. Yeah. So that's where it became really unhealthy.
Yeah. Kate cares about you so much and sounds like you care about her a lot as well.
And to the extent obviously that when you're going through that phase with your disordered eating and you are so, the pressure was obviously high and you were not being nice to yourself and she was she observed that realized it and mentioned it to you and not only mentioned it but she's obviously talking sounds like she's talking to the club and How is that received?
Because I know that if a partner stepped in, that's football, your health, your nutrition, your training.
That is your world, that is your profession.
How did you receive her getting involved essentially?
Yeah, not great. Yeah, it was an element of like, you know, what would you know?
Yeah, it was, you know, this is, this is my profession.
I'm dialed in here. I'm, I know exactly what I need.
I know what my body needs and this is it.
It's my way or nothing. And it's just, yeah, and then it got to that point where it was, you know, a bit of.
It got a bit heated. Loggerheads. Yeah, it did get to loggerheads at the highest point of it.
But then, you know, it was more her then coming around in that real, more so me understanding it was coming from a really pure caring nature.
Um, from Kate, uh, to then help me realize that, yeah, we need to change this.
Um, you need a, you need a shift. Yeah. And so you, you, once you realized that it was coming from a place of care, you, you listened and.
Yeah, I think so and I think it probably took me to then talk to other people and hear it from others rather than just Kate and then me going, oh, fuck.
She was right the whole time. I relate to that to be honest.
Like there has been so many times where my partner, Jam, she'll, make a suggestion on like a script I've written or a video I've made or something.
She'd be like, I reckon, and I'll be like, it's fine.
It's fine. And then someone else will make that and then I'll change it and she'll be like, oh, you've changed it now.
Now that they've said it. Yes. And it is embarrassing.
It is embarrassing. It is. Yeah, that's exactly how it rolled though.
It was like, yeah, no, you were right, Dale.
Do you think that during that time, was that a, Was that a significant change in the dynamic between the two of you and has that shifted your relationship since?
Yeah, it's a really good call. It's like I feel like our...
There was a lot more fun in the relationship from there on in.
Cause I was always just like, I I felt like if we were out for dinner or out at lunch or even out for a drink, there was a simmering anxiousness in me. around, you know, where, what am I going to eat next?
What kind of drink are we going to have?
Yeah, and I'd bring my own lunchbox to the footy or something.
If we were going somewhere, I'd bring my own stuff, pre-made – whatever, I remember going for dinner once and bringing my own food.
Yeah. Yeah. Stuff that's just popping up now, I'm like, That was just so rogue at the time, but just like me thinking the story I was telling myself that that was elite. you know that was like oh yeah i'm like yeah i'm gunning for the best i could are you kind of hoping like stories like that get out around the club around the ifl like he's like that's because that sounds like the most extreme version Yeah, and it's funny.
I remember that we had a session with our sports psych and everyone had to sort of rate each other from sort of normal- um above normal obsessive which was the too high or like elite or whatever and i think i was the only one in the like obsessive category And that was, I think that was a round of training for everything, just obsessive.
And that was like a... I was like, how good?
But everyone else was a bit like... No.
Like we're looking for that, you know, elite but also healthy balance around everything you're doing.
It's an interesting rating system that obsessive is just below elite. yeah as if obsessive is like a good thing oh no it was it was over the line it was like obsessive is better than elite yeah it was like it was like yeah The scale was more like obsessive, not good.
Gotcha. But did you see obsessive as good?
I did in my head. I was like, you know, best you can get.
Bloody hell. Now, the hoodie you're wearing, we really want to talk about your relationship with Harrison.
Nice. Can you talk to us about that? Because it's pretty incredible.
Yeah, thanks, mate. No, this is a pretty special one.
I guess it came out the back of the saga as well in the following couple of years.
So 2016, we had the year off. Back end of 2017, early 2018, I met Harrison.
So the way that relationship came about, my grandmother, my Omar, passed away from an autoimmune disease called scleroderma.
And she was the most loving, caring, beautiful woman ever. and had a great relationship with her.
And so when she passed, I came on the AFL scene and became an ambassador for the Scleroderma Foundation.
And just to really just try and raise as much awareness as we possibly could, because it was often going misdiagnosed, not a lot of knowledge around it, particularly within Australia.
So what is it exactly? Yes, it's an autoimmune disease, can attack any major organ in your body.
Um, so with all Mars, it was her lungs. Um, she soon was quickly walking around with a ventilator on 24 seven and things like that. with Harrison, my little man.
So off the back of that – becoming the ambassador, they introduced me to little Harrison Pennycott, H-Man as he's known as.
How old was he? He was five at the time.
He was a mad little Dons fan and quickly formed this...
Awesome little friendship with him. Just seeing his beautiful character, the love that he had for those around him and the way he would handle adversities in his life he'd spent. countless hours in hospital, a number of operations.
He'd had fingers amputated due to infections and these kind of things and I'm just going, this kid is just incredible.
He's got so much joy and so much love for life. with everything that he's going through and had an awesome little character on him so you know over the course of a a number of years.
He's now 12. He's punched through every life expectancy barrier that he was given.
Yeah, and then so towards early 2000, about 2021, 22, Kate and I came up with an idea on how can we try and impact this kid's life as much as we possibly can?
We're always into our fashion and clothes.
So we thought, how about we create a clothing line?
And H-Man loved his little drawings and artworks.
He'd often send me little pics and things like that. we thought how about we put utilize his drawings and artworks and little slogans and things as the graphics on the garments and we got him to write a big bucket list of stuff he wants to do in his life and the proceeds from the sales of the clothes.
We'll go towards just pumping out his bucket list items and giving him some just experiences that he really wants to do in his life, which is pretty cool.
Was he there at the club when you announced your retirement?
Am I right in saying this? Yeah, yeah. H has been there. for all the big moments across my career.
So for my 250th game, the club surprised me and brought Harrison out and he gave the most beautiful speech in front of the group.
Um, and then, yeah, he was, uh, he was there, there up on the, uh, up in Brisbane for more retirement game.
And, He's been a massive part of my life and he's done more for me than I've done for him, people go, wow, it's amazing what you're doing for Harrison and Sclerodon.
This kid has just given me so much perspective on life and just a real outlook on how to handle challenges. and things that Bob off here and there.
It's just like, you're able to like, just, I'm fascinated by that.
Like even articulate any more, like what perspective he's given you, like, like, how that's changed oh like just little things he this is going back a while he had um I went in to see him after he had to get one of his fingers amputated after a nasty staph infection.
And I went in and I said, mate, like, I'm so sorry this has happened.
Like, how are you feeling? He's like, ah, he's like, who needs fingers anyway?
You know? Like this is the type of attitude on the kid and I'm just like –
Yeah, I guess you're right, buddy. Like you make it work.
You make it happen. And it's just like the stresses and the little things that bob up in your life just have –
It is hard sometimes to really just acknowledge that.
But when I sit down, I actually think about H-Man and try and embody him. his values and the way he goes about it.
It's just like nothing matters, you know, nothing really matters.
Yeah. That's pretty special. I'm sorry if this is too dark of a question.
But, um, have you thought about what it would be like without him around?
Wow. That's a big one, Josh. Um, I no doubt it'll be, you know, extremely, extremely hard.
Um, if that was to ever be the case, but.
I think overall having this relationship with H-Man and And being able to try and embody some of his values in the way that he attacks and approaches his life.
I think we'll just stand with me forever and everyone that knows H-Man and that has been around him. will be impacted by him in such a positive way that whenever or if ever it got to a point where he was no longer with us, they'd be so much better for having known him and just leaves this incredible, incredible legacy for everyone that he's been around.
So yeah, Look, it'd be obviously that initial moment and period of extreme grief and sadness, but at the same time just so much love gratitude and um happiness for having you know, had a small part to play in his life and just getting to know him so much.
So, yeah, it's a tough one to think about.
Yeah, of course. Just, yeah, he's just an incredible, incredible little kid.
It sort of sounds like the combination of...
Because when you talk about Harrison like that, it kind of, to me, it's like a very good example of like legacy and like the impact we can have on people.
And it sounds like a combination of you becoming friends with Harrison and then also the the conclusions you came to during the supplement saga in terms of how you'll positively impact other people, like do you think like it feels like those two parts of your life have really influenced how you Live your life.
Yeah. I get so much joy now of people saying, You know, I love the relationship that you have with H-man rather than I loved you as a footballer.
Just the excitement that I get to go – This is really beautiful that we're able to show this real authentic relationship that we've cultivated with each other and be able to impact or inspire or um you know encourage anyone else that we can i guess express that to which is beautiful and just like In terms of legacy, I was in there visiting Harrison earlier this morning at Royal Children's Hospital and He's like, I want to add another one to the bucket list.
I said, buddy, you've got about 45 already.
I think we better trim it in. Got to sell some more hoodies.
He goes... I reckon, one, we're going to buy all the kids at Royal Children's Hospital Christmas presents.
And I was like, that's unreal. And he's like, yeah, and we're going to feed the homeless and we're going to give them lots of our kit.
And I was like. Oh man, you're a little weapon.
I was like, I love that so much. How can people buy? the clothes yeah nice so it's uh you can just go to hthelabel.com so just h-a-y-c-h a bit of a play on his name yeah or just through the social media on Instagram.
Just hit the link in the bio there. He's also just like charging our Instagram followers keep creeping up and he's just like every time we hit...
He's just, he don't care how much kit we sell.
He's like Insta followers and pumping my bucket list.
That's what I care about. It's a classic.
Awesome. Love it. We'll put a link in the show notes for H the Label as well.
Beautiful. Thanks, boys. Unreal. I'm quite interested in how negative experiences can inform positive experiences. action sort of.
Do you think if you hadn't gone through the the whole doping saga and seeing what that did to Essendon fans, you would have been so determined to reach out to someone like Harrison?
That's a really good question. One I haven't really pondered at all, but to be honest, I don't know if I would have the same the same real, just passion towards wanting to help, wanting to give and, and, you know and spreading as much joy as possible um I think you know going through that experience um has definitely taught me so, so many lessons in the strength of character and being able to just... handle adversity as I was saying with as much grace as possible.
And, you know, I, I do feel that, yeah, you know, this relationship with little H man, um, I don't know if it would be what it is today without going through a time like that in my life.
Incredible. And along with a number of other things, mate.
I don't know if I would have... those little moments of joy in my days, you know, if it wasn't going through something like that.
So, yeah, the lessons that I have learned and –
The person I am now, I guess I could attribute a lot of it to those heavy, big adversities in my life, yeah.
Would you go as far as to recommend it to other players?
Oh, mate. I'm not going to even go there.
Just one last one before we let you go. Kate seems to be like this ever-present, wise, consistent... support and love for you what does that what does she mean to you Yeah, Katie, she's a genuine weapon.
She's just like, you know, we were... A genuine weapon?
She was in year 11, I was in year 12 when we got together.
And she's just navigated this whole period with me.
And I think growing together as people, she's shaped so much of who I am and just had... you know so many heavy experiences throughout throughout the course of of this journey but some of the most funnest loving moments ever as well and you know really really looking forward to to what the next phase of our life may bring and you know just off the back of the retirement there's I'm really excited to go and pursue things along with her because she sacrificed so much for me.
It's quite a selfish career. She's missed out on a number of family things and whatnot across the course of the career.
Um, an enormous amount of love for her and you better be listening KT, but love you very much though.
Well, mate, thank you so much for joining us.
It's very special, I think, when you have someone who There's just such an exceptional role model.
And I think knowing young people are looking up to you is...
It's just great to know that you're setting an example for others to follow.
That's unreal. Thank you, guys. I've loved it.
Good on you. Thanks, man. Thank you. Well, now that the interview's over, a great interview with Dyson, now we can maybe find something that's Dyson helpful.
Very good. Excellent. For the listeners out of a great interview.
Essendon supporters' fingers are going towards the stop button on the podcast and they've just taken it away and gone, that is good.
Yeah, worth sticking around for. Anything post-helpful.
Yeah. Dyson helpful. Yeah. I thought of a nickname for Josh in the last 45 seconds.
You have? Great. See if you can work it out.
Stan. Stan. God, if you get this, I'll be blown away.
As in like a sort of Like a fan? A streaming service, but not maybe the- No, I was thinking, well, you could either go, there's two options I thought of.
We could call him Stan or we could call him Denton. um okay we're not going to get it so he just like josh just asked wonderful questions oh yeah and so did stan grant when he was on q a oh yeah And Andrew Denton asked the best questions.
Yeah. Better than Stan Grant. Adjacent. Grand adjust to your nickname, Switzerland.
Okay, Dyson Heppel, what a legend. So generous in everything he just spoke about.
Yeah, he was brilliant. As I said in the intro, the thing I wanted to talk about was disordered eating for men.
When he started talking about his eating disorder, do you know, you guys would have both had this experience on the podcast before and people listening would have it as well.
When a topic comes up that is very raw for you or just catches you by surprise and you think about yourself, your heart just races.
And when you're as the host or when you do what the three of us do, I...
I always, for some reason, feel like everyone's looking at me, even though they're not.
It's so irrational. Everyone's listening to us, and you go, oh, God.
And there's sort of a feeling of like everyone's expecting me to say something.
Yeah. Everyone's thinking this is about me sort of thing.
Yeah, just a nervousness that this, almost like I don't want to talk right now because my head's gone to a different place.
And so I was, when he was talking about for men and what that kind of looked like, I started thinking about myself and I had this thing of like, Do I have disordered eating?
And I think maybe for reasons that might be slightly obvious to people who follow the podcast for a while, Eating disorders, there's a history in our family, Josh.
So I was thinking, I always think, gosh, am I more susceptible to Anyway, it set me on a trajectory for the next kind of month that I didn't tell you guys about just because there was so much other stuff going on.
But I was... determined to find out, do I have a healthy or unhealthy relationship with food?
And do I have an issue with disordered eating?
And I did a lot of research on it, a lot of reading on it, and I spoke to a friend of mine who's a psychologist and sort of picked their brain on it.
But it was really fascinating because – And I won't go through my journey because it kind of turns out that for me it's not disordered eating.
My eating is very much linked towards an identity I have I like being like a...
As a kid, I always wanted to be like an elite sports person.
I thought I would be. And I kind of haven't given up on that yet.
Like that identity that I like to have. And part of that is like, now with my athletics doing every ticking all the boxes to be as professional as I can be to run as fast as I can be and But in all the process I went through, which I'm going to go through now, I'm going to go through the process that any – so for any – men or women, but we don't hear much about men in this area.
And so for any men who... I listened to that and went, gosh, do I have issues there?
I'm interested, and I didn't want to say this because I didn't want to make it about me because you're talking about you, but I
I had very, very similar thoughts. I didn't do the research and think about it, but I definitely thought during that episode, I was like... Because I don't think it's an issue or anything, but...
Because I don't really know what's the definition or anything like that.
It crossed my mind. It did cross my mind.
So I'm interested to hear this. Let's go through the process.
So I'm going to talk people through a process that I went through and trying to understand if –
I had something that I needed to get professional help with.
And I guess just a little bit of a warning that some of the questions that I –
Had to answer myself and we'll talk about now.
If you are struggling with this, it could be a little bit difficult to listen to.
It could be a little bit confronting. The first thing is to reflect honestly on behaviours and beliefs.
So you can start by asking yourself these questions and...
Just be very honest with yourself. You're not telling anyone.
It's just be honest with yourself and kind of do it in a very gentle way.
First question is, do I obsess over food, calories, weight, or my appearance?
Second one, do I feel guilty or ashamed after eating?
Next one, do I often skip meals, fast or over-exercise to make up for eating?
Next one, do I check mirrors, weigh myself, or measure parts of my body often?
Next one, do I feel anxious or out of control around food?
And the last one under this like initial sort of interrogation, I guess, if you want to call it that is, Have I lost or gained weight in a way that feels extreme or unhealthy?
I'm not going to make this about me because I want people to think about themselves.
But for me, I sort of only ticked a couple of those.
So early on I was thinking, yeah, it's probably not. um the next step is just to recognize mask like the masculine kind of mask that you can sort of hide behind.
And I think men will use terms like shredding or clean eating or bulking or cutting cycles or like optimizing performance, they're kind of terms that are thrown around, especially in a high-performance sporting arena that... that kind of have a healthy connotation or it's like a distraction from what is really happening in your head and you can hide behind those.
And you can kind of ask yourself if you're using those terms, am I doing this for health or for control?
Or maybe am I doing it for performance or punishment?
Just be really honest with that. Am I shredding for performance or am I shredding for punishment?
Let's say you have a croissant in the morning and then you go so hard in the gym to kind of punish yourself for that.
Oh, right, right. The fact you've given yourself a treat or whatever.
Okay. Yeah, I feel like I'm yes to a few of those.
Yep. To the early ones, yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. And again, I probably should have said this at the start.
I'm not an expert on this. I'm just someone who's fascinated on it and has had a conversation with an expert in relation to me.
This is not a diagnostic tool, what we're going through here.
This is just the process that I have been through, which has sort of led me to realize that It's something I should keep an eye on for myself, but right now I'm okay.
So there are a few self-assessment tools that are out there you can use.
There's one called the EDEQ, which is a common one, eating disorder examination questionnaire, which I didn't do.
The one that I did, just because it was a very simple one, was just, it's called the SCOFF questionnaire, S-C-O-F-F, we can put a link to that. in the show notes, but very simply, there are five questions.
If you answer yes to two or more of these, that's a red flag.
Again, it's not a diagnosis. It might be saying if you get two or more of these, potentially you might want to have a think about chatting to a professional.
So the questions are, And again, these are for something might be a little bit triggering.
So I just signed that up front. Do you make yourself sick because you feel uncomfortably full?
Do you worry you have lost control over how much you eat?
Have you recently lost more than six kilograms in a three month period?
Do you believe yourself to be fat when others say you're too thin?
Would you say that food dominates your life?
So if you say yes to two of those, it might be worth considering chatting to a professional.
The next set of questions that my friend got me to go through is just to consider how it's affecting your life.
So is it impacting your relationships? Do I avoid social situations involving food?
Is it affecting my mood, energy or focus?
Am I spending too much time thinking about food, exercise or my body?
And then the next step, which I think is probably the hardest one, and I think a lot of people might stop at this one, but it's just talk to a trusted professional.
So that could be, it's just reaching out to, I think in the first instance, the GP just for a checkup and you can chat to them about that.
And they might be able to point you then in the direction of a psychologist or a dietician that they might know of who might be able to help you with those. issues and I think just framing it as when you sit down with your GP that I think I might be struggling with my relationship with food and my body.
I think that's hopefully not too hard of a thing to say to a doctor or to a GP.
I think I might be struggling with my relationship with food and my body.
And probably the last thing I would say to all of this, if you're thinking about these questions, is if you think you might have any issues, with disordered eating, I think the last thing to say is off the back of that conversation is you are absolutely not alone.
We know that 30% of eating disorders in Australia are actually men.
And I'm sure there are so many more cases that are not. like so many things, but I'm sure there are so many men who haven't reported it or don't even know that's what they're, That's what their experience is.
But know that you're not alone. It is such a common thing, especially these days with body image for men that you see all the time on Instagram or TikTok.
And if you are into your fitness, The standards that are set are so ridiculously high if you follow people on social media to try and copy their workouts. chances are a lot of their content is in the top off and it's just completely unattainable.
And you're setting yourself to that standard.
Yeah, so just know that you're absolutely not alone.
Did you, when you're answering these questions and you got to a point where you're like, I don't think I have what would be defined as disordered eating, but I have said yes to a few of these.
Did you find yourself thinking or can you imagine a time in the past where you would have said yes to more?
Not really. I mean, very specifically, and I wasn't going to go into details with mine, but I'll do it just in case it might be relatable to some people.
For me, I thought I might have body dysmorphia. which is where you see your body in a very different way than anyone else does.
Because I'll often... Through all the training I do, I'll often – like if I see myself – like if I have my top off, I'm like, oh, I don't like how that looks.
I don't like how that looks. That doesn't – I've still got, you know –
I train with a lot of athletes who are like Olympic athletes or Commonwealth Games or they are, I hate using the term, but the most shredded people you'll ever see.
I'm like, well, I do that training. Why don't I completely shut it like them?
I mean, the answer is I'm 25 years older than them.
But I'll often compare myself to them and go, I don't get why I don't look like that.
And then I'll sometimes see a photo of myself Not knowing it's me in the photo, if that makes sense.
Like a photo will come up from training or something.
Oh, yeah. And I go, oh. I do, that is a lot like what they look like, but I don't see, with my eyes, I don't see myself looking like that.
Um, so that's the one thing I was confused about is that often I'll see myself in photos and go, Oh, look a lot fitter than I see myself in the mirror.
It would be remiss of me not to mention now something just organizations doing incredible work whether it's through supporting individuals or family members or providing information and awareness.
So the Butterfly Foundation, obviously a very big one.
EDFA, who I'm very proud to be an ambassador for, who support families of people going through eating disorders, incredible organisation.
Uncovery, a group who, it's kind of like you get for anyone struggling with an eating disorder, They get a coach, like a personal coach, who really holds your hands through the process of recovery.
And it's an incredible organization as well. yeah anyway um i'm so happy dyson sort of took us down that path not what i was expecting from any of you but i think it's a really important conversation to have yeah for anyone out there who is who's experiencing that but um yeah just a huge thank you to us and apple for being so generous with with what he shared about his life because he's been through a lot and it was incredible to hear him talk about it.
Sure was. Very Dyson helpful. Very dusting helpful.
Okay. Well, see you soon, guys. See you, guys.
See you. Hugh, it's Ryan. Oh, what a legend Dyson is.
What a lovely, lovely guy. Fascinating. But it kind of occurred to me just as I was leaving. it was like all footy teams tell me if you think this is weird footy teams all have like club anthems like songs you know like saints go marching in and it's a grand old flag um But do you think it's weird that The Imperfects doesn't have a club song?
I just found it really strange, so I just, I don't know, I've just thrown something together.
And I'll just play it for you. Let me...
Let me know what you think, okay? And we can change it, but this is what I was thinking.
We're the bold, imperfect team. We're the mighty, mighty team.
With a laugh and a tear, there's no flaw to be to cheer.
Phew, Josh and Ryan, we're perfect and we're proud and we're sipping.
And on some vulnerability Anyway, feedback, welcome, but that did take me ages.
So I'll talk to you soon. It's Ryan Shelton from the podcast.
To call back, press 22. To reply message, press 1.
To reply. If you enjoyed this episode but want a little bit more, we've got some good news.
We have a brand new show called A Little More Imperfects. and it's on Patreon for a little bit of money you'll get access to bonus episodes with Hugh Ryan and Josh every fortnight early access to live events plus other things we haven't even thought of yet visit patreon.com slash the imperfects The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh van Kylenburg, Brian Shelton and Josh van Kylenburg.
Our executive producer is Bridget North East, assistant producer Bella North East.
This episode is edited by George Martin with music from No Mono.
The Imperfix is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
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